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Machao
QUOTE
A case of killing chickens to scare monkeys

The world's most dominant and profitable automaker's recall of over 8.5 million cars has spiraled out of control. At first, it seemed to be a normal recall of defective cars. But the crisis Toyota Motor Corp. faces has surpassed the purely "business" level to involve political and geopolitical dimensions.

Many observers suspect something other than safety concerns behind the harsh response of the United States to Toyota's recall. To former Kia Motors chairman Kim Sun-hong, the U.S. reaction to the Toyota problem is an act of "killing the chickens to scare the monkeys."

This Chinese proverb illustrates the cruel yet effective tactic of killing one to tame a hundred: As monkeys misbehave in the treetops, annoyed humans kill chickens in front of the monkeys. From fear, the monkeys get silent and tamed. Some even fall out of the trees.

In an interview with the online newspaper Whoim (www.whoim.kr), Kim said no man-made technology can be perfect. Cars are not an exception, and hence the constant recalls to rectify defects. In a sense, recalls in the car business are seen as an automaker's show of confidence and trustworthiness.

Toyota has recalled its cars numerous times, so why is the U.S. government taking issue with the Japanese automaker this time? The reason Kim suggested was that "Toyota has crossed the line that it should not have crossed." Toyota, he said, should not have driven the Big Three - General Motors, Ford and Chrysler - to the wall, and instead should have followed a strategy of coexistence.

"The message that Washington wants to send through the Toyota recall crisis is that other companies could also be put into such a quandary. The U.S. government wants its trading partners to heed the warning," Kim said.

Many observers in Japan seem to echo Kim's view. They suspect that domestic political dynamics of the United States are at work in the Toyota bashing.

"For the Obama administration, which is worrying about its falling support rates, the best way of letting off steam about the jobless situation is to target Toyota, which has overtaken the Big Three," Kazutaka Oshima, president of Rakuten Investment Management, was quoted as saying in a Feb. 9 Reuters story from Tokyo.

Tough talk by U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood fueled speculation that the U.S. government is using Toyota as a scapegoat. LaHood advised anyone who owns a faulty Toyota vehicle to "stop driving it and take it to the dealership because they believe they have the fix for it." He added that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration "will continue to hold Toyota's feet to the fire to make sure they are going to do everything they said they were going to do to make the vehicles safe."

Kim said the U.S. government will not let the Toyota crisis spiral out of control because Washington's intention is not to kill off Toyota but to warn "strong monkeys" from other parts of the world.

To some observers, the Toyota situation has deeper political and geopolitical implications. Some Japanese watchers worry that the Toyota incident could further strain Japan-U.S. ties that are already frayed by the escalating dispute over a U.S. airbase on Okinawa.

Cha Kil-jin, head of Hooam Future Institute, describes the Toyota bashing as Washington's attempt to tame Japan under Prime Minister Hatoyama.

In the first place, Cha says the Toyota predicament is the result of "having eaten too much salt-marinated salmon roe." He was referring to the method used to hunt polar bears. As hunters are unable to beat a polar bear in strength, they feed the bears salt-drenched salmon eggs as bate until bears become so bloated from drinking too much water that they cannot move. It is then that the hunter moves in.

What triggered the Toyota crisis was its rise to the No. 1 spot in the global auto industry by overtaking General Motors. "It hurt the United States' pride," Cha said.

But the Toyota crisis involves more than the No. 1 spot in the global car industry. "It reflects Washington's intention to tame the Hatoyama administration which seeks to change the power balance in East Asia," Cha says in a Whoim article.

Cracks began to appear in the staunch U.S.-Japan alliance since the Democratic Party of Japan took power, ending the 54-year-long rule of the Liberal Democratic Party. Conflicts began to surface when the Hatoyama administration sought to nullify the 2006 agreement to relocate the Futenma air base on Okinawa Island.

Throughout the post-war era, Japan had actively supported Washington's global strategies. But friction was anticipated with the DPJ's seizure of power because the party vowed to seek an independent voice. Following the DPJ's takeover, calls have been raised for a reorganization of the U.S. forces in Japan. Recently, secret agreements crafted in the 1960s to allow U.S. nuclear weapons in Japanese territory were exposed. These incidents were taken as signs of the Hatoyama administration's intention to pursue a more independent diplomacy with the United States.

According to Cha, Washington used the Toyota recall crisis to keep Japan in check. "Toyota became too high spirited and careless after rising to the global No. 1 spot," he said.

Cha said the Toyota fiasco offered Washington a chance to promote the revival of its staggering automakers and the national economy and push Japan back into line in relationship with the United States.

Then what are the main lessons for Korea and Korean companies? On one hand, Korean automakers, including Hyundai Motor, have experienced over 10 percent rise in sales as a result of the Toyota's recalls. However, Cha says Hyundai Motor should not be satisfied with the small, unexpected gains from Toyota's pain.

For Hyundai Motor, the Toyota debacle is not "a fire on the other side of the river that you can merely look on," Cha said, "because the misfortune that befalls others today can befall you in the future."

For Korea, Cha advises, it is time to broaden its horizons and look at the shifts in the Northeast Asian security landscape from a more practical perspective. "South Korea needs to contemplate the implications of the cracks in the Japan-U.S. alliance for regional security and the reunification of the two Koreas," he said.


LINK http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/NEWKHSITE/dat...01002130027.asp
Martian
QUOTE (Machao @ Feb 12 2010, 01:49 PM) *


I had not considered the geopolitical dimension of the Toyota recall. The points raised in the article make a lot of sense. The U.S. is trying to put Japan in its place. This is logical and rational. The U.S. can't be a superpower if its underlings don't follow U.S. wishes on Japanese-located military bases and disregard the unofficial taboo of surpassing U.S. companies in market share.

This is a perfect time to discuss China's support of Japan or Korea in their time of distress versus Japan's and Korea's mindless support of the West in China-bashing. When China recalls one minor item, Japanese and Korean media join the Western propaganda bandwagon to bash China. And yet, when there's an U.S. recall of millions of pounds of contaminated meat from salmonella that affects the meat imports of Japan and Korea, there is no comparable hysteria in Japanese and Korean media. China recalled a toy? What an outrage! Poisoned meat imports from America on the dinner table? Not a concern.

Japan and Korea should realize that they are both very dependent on China's market. If they continue to bash China in the future, one of these days, China will bash back American-style. If the U.S. government can push Toyota to the wall, China can do the same thing to Toyota or Hyundai during the current or a future recall. Newton's third law of motion: if the Japanese and Koreans keep bashing China, "an equal and opposite reaction" will occur.
Martian
QUOTE (Machao @ Feb 12 2010, 01:49 PM) *


China-bashers in the Japanese and Korean media do not seem to realize that Chinese-Americans are an important group of customers.

Chinese-Americans are the largest group of Asians in the U.S. that number 3,538,407, according to the U.S. Census Bureau's "2007 American Community Survey 1-Year Estimates." Chinese-Americans are among the most productive and wealthy in the United States. To name a few examples, Chinese-Americans are/were involved with Yahoo! (i.e. Jerry Yang), Nvidia (i.e. Jen-Hsun Huang), former Kingston Technology before it was purchased (i.e. John Tu and David Sun), and D-Link (i.e. Tony Tsao).

Chinese-Americans buy Toyota Tercels, Corollas, and Siennas. We buy Honda Accords and CRVs. We also buy Lexus GS300 and LS400.

We also shop at Korean-owned "H Mart" in Burlington, MA. On any given day, the proportion of white shoppers at H Mart is less than 5%. Walk the aisles and you'll hear a lot of Mandarin being spoken.

We're getting tired of the China-bashing by Japanese and Korean media. Keep up the unfair China-bashing and one of these days, Chinese-Americans may decide to boycott Japanese and Korean products. Chinese and Chinese-Americans are not pinatas.
Machao
All this bashing problem will be gone once the balance of power tilt toward China, all bashers will become pro-China or at least they will keep quiet, neutral and even some will crawd to beijing begging for forgiveness...that's human nature: People tend to look down at you when you're poor and under-powers...that is part of norh east asian culture.
gnak
i always thought there was something fishy going on with the toyota cars recall... after reading this article it makes perfect sense.

about the china bashing theres more china bashing comming from western nations compared to japan

and korea there just paranoid china might take over there land lol...
Martian
QUOTE (gnak @ Feb 13 2010, 05:58 AM) *
i always thought there was something fishy going on with the toyota cars recall... after reading this article it makes perfect sense.

about the china bashing theres more china bashing comming from western nations compared to japan

and korea there just paranoid china might take over there land lol...


That's just great. We have a Japan with an inferiority complex and a paranoid Korea. Meanwhile, the Caucasians are united in their attempts to weaken China. We have a pair of psychologically-weak sisters in Northeast Asia. They can't seem to understand that there is a larger game underway. I suppose that China, on her own, will simply have to continue going eyeball-to-eyeball with the United States and Europe.

Will Caucasians maintain their stranglehold on technology, trade, finance, investment, and the highest living standards in the world? Or will China succeed in deregulating the entire world trading system and let all nations and peoples benefit? For example, after China established trade relationships with Africa, Australia, and Brazil, isn't it true that those economies boomed? Are not Africans, Australians, and Brazilians enjoying rising living standards from selling higher-priced commodities to the world market?
Machao
The reason that China, Japan and Korean should form an united front dispite their differences to face US divide and conquer tactics, if these tree countries had consolidated their reginal political strenght, there is less chance that U.S can use one against other in order to maximize either economical or political gain.
Imagine if U.S allies with China against Japan and Korea...that will be catastrophic for these two countries economically and military...luckyly for them that China and U.S are not in mood to form an strategic alliance to dominate Asia...So they better not bash too much China...if the US-China hypothetically day come effectively, with the U.S-China strenght can push Japan and Korea back to 3th world countries.
aziqbal
German, France, Italy, Spain and UK all fought thier wars when each one became powerful, nearly all European nations went to war after industrialization its natural, so did Asians, so whats the big deal

There is no reason why Koreans, Chinese and Japanese cant get together, let by gones remain by gones, Japanese got nuked twice by Americans but they still do business with USA
gnak
QUOTE (Martian @ Feb 13 2010, 10:45 PM) *
That's just great. We have a Japan with an inferiority complex and a paranoid Korea. Meanwhile, the Caucasians are united in their attempts to weaken China. We have a pair of psychologically-weak sisters in Northeast Asia. They can't seem to understand that there is a larger game underway. I suppose that China, on her own, will simply have to continue going eyeball-to-eyeball with the United States and Europe.

Will Caucasians maintain their stranglehold on technology, trade, finance, investment, and the highest living standards in the world? Or will China succeed in deregulating the entire world trading system and let all nations and peoples benefit? For example, after China established trade relationships with Africa, Australia, and Brazil, isn't it true that those economies boomed? Are not Africans, Australians, and Brazilians enjoying rising living standards from selling higher-priced commodities to the world market?

dun get me wrong if u look at my past posts on the im all pro for an east asian confederation like setup... particularly with china and japan... bak then most chinese users on this forum still had alot bitterness against japan cus of the ww2 thing.
Martian
QUOTE (aziqbal @ Feb 13 2010, 03:33 PM) *
German, France, Italy, Spain and UK all fought thier wars when each one became powerful, nearly all European nations went to war after industrialization its natural, so did Asians, so whats the big deal

There is no reason why Koreans, Chinese and Japanese cant get together, let by gones remain by gones, Japanese got nuked twice by Americans but they still do business with USA


To an extent, you and "gnak" have summed up the Japanese and Korean viewpoint. The Japanese and Koreans do not seem to realize that they are geographically small countries and second-tier mid-size powers and economies. They refuse to face facts.

China consumes 3,640 terawatt-hours of electricity per year. Japan consumes a mere 1,000 terawatt-hours. South Korea consumes under 400 terawatt-hours. In their delusional minds, Japan and South Korea believe that they are "rival" states to China. Until Japanese and South Koreans accept reality, they will not rally behind China in support of Asian causes (i.e. unlike China, Japan and South Korea do not object and complain about U.S. invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan). Instead, the U.S. will continue to play a game of divide and conquer.

We will simply have to wait another ten to fifteen years for China's nominal economy to match the U.S. economy. At that time, the Asian voice will be heard more loudly and clearly (i.e. stop invading Asian countries and killing civilians).
aziqbal
QUOTE (Martian @ Feb 13 2010, 06:37 PM) *
To an extent, you and "gnak" have summed up the Japanese and Korean viewpoint. The Japanese and Koreans do not seem to realize that they are geographically small countries and second-tier mid-size powers and economies. They refuse to face facts.

China consumes 3,640 terawatt-hours of electricity per year. Japan consumes a mere 1,000 terawatt-hours. South Korea consumes under 400 terawatt-hours. In their delusional minds, Japan and South Korea believe that they are "rival" states to China. Until Japanese and South Koreans accept reality, they will not rally behind China in support of Asian causes (i.e. unlike China, Japan and South Korea do not object and complain about U.S. invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan). Instead, the U.S. will continue to play a game of divide and conquer.

We will simply have to wait another ten to fifteen years for China's nominal economy to match the U.S. economy. At that time, the Asian voice will be heard more loudly and clearly (i.e. stop invading Asian countries and killing civilians).


Martian, Israel is a tiny country yet controls pretty much everything it wants, energy consumption has nothing to with international agendas

If you keep thinking one os more superior to another then this wont work, we are back to WWII, China, Korea and Japan are on the same boat no one has authority of another, that way they can all work together
Martian
QUOTE (aziqbal @ Feb 14 2010, 07:51 AM) *
Martian, Israel is a tiny country yet controls pretty much everything it wants, energy consumption has nothing to with international agendas

If you keep thinking one os more superior to another then this wont work, we are back to WWII, China, Korea and Japan are on the same boat no one has authority of another, that way they can all work together


I disagree. Israeli power is derived from American equipment, power, and support. Without the unconditional backing of America, Israel would struggle to keep the lights on in the country. Different studies have estimated that during the last forty years, Israel has received hundred of billions to over a trillion dollars of American economic and military aid. Without full U.S. support for forty years, Israel would be a third-world country.

The United States, Korea, and Japan do not "all work together." When the U.S. tells Japan that an U.S. base on Okinawa is non-negotiable, it is only a matter of time before the Japanese blink and accommodate the United States. The U.S. does not treat Japan or Korea as equals. Japan is no larger than the single state of California. Korea is roughly the size of Kentucky. Each state is entitled to merely two senate seats in a chamber of 100. It is not realistic for California or Kentucky to expect equal status to the continental United States.

Similarly, it is unrealistic to expect China to treat Japan or Korea as equals. Japan is merely the size of one Chinese province. Korea is probably smaller than all of China's 23 provinces.

When a country is a mid-size power, it should behave like one. Japan and Korea have no problems following U.S. leadership. They should show similar deference to Chinese leadership on Asian issues.
aziqbal
QUOTE (Martian @ Feb 14 2010, 08:24 AM) *
I disagree. Israeli power is derived from American equipment, power, and support. Without the unconditional backing of America, Israel would struggle to keep the lights on in the country. Different studies have estimated that during the last forty years, Israel has received hundred of billions to over a trillion dollars of American economic and military aid. Without full U.S. support for forty years, Israel would be a third-world country.

The United States, Korea, and Japan do not "all work together." When the U.S. tells Japan that an U.S. base on Okinawa is non-negotiable, it is only a matter of time before the Japanese blink and accommodate the United States. The U.S. does not treat Japan or Korea as equals. Japan is no larger than the single state of California. Korea is roughly the size of Kentucky. Each state is entitled to merely two senate seats in a chamber of 100. It is not realistic for California or Kentucky to expect equal status to the continental United States.

Similarly, it is unrealistic to expect China to treat Japan or Korea as equals. Japan is merely the size of one Chinese province. Korea is probably smaller than all of China's 23 provinces.

When a country is a mid-size power, it should behave like one. Japan and Korea have no problems following U.S. leadership. They should show similar deference to Chinese leadership on Asian issues.


Israel did not recieve any military aid or even civilian aid apart from low interest loans until 1967, it was only after 1967 that all the aid started, and in 1967 Israel took out Syria, Jordan and Egypt backed by all arab states

Great Britain ruled 1/6 of the globe from a tiny island for over 250 years, size has nothing whatsoever to do with power projection

US re-built Japan and South Korea after WWII and Korean war, thats why they will do anything for US, again what has size of a country got to do with anything, Japan with no resources as a small nation took most of Asia and China in WII, I really dont know where u get ur ideas from that size = power or importance

Hong Kong and Singapore are two tiny islands yet 40% of worlds trade passes through them, should they bend over for Indonesia because its bigger in "size"?

Japan and Korea are two very powerful economic powers, and China has to accept that and do business accordingly, this inferiroity complex is what caused WWII

Machao
QUOTE
The United States, Korea, and Japan do not "all work together." When the U.S. tells Japan that an U.S. base on Okinawa is non-negotiable, it is only a matter of time before the Japanese blink and accommodate the United States. The U.S. does not treat Japan or Korea as equals. Japan is no larger than the single state of California. Korea is roughly the size of Kentucky. Each state is entitled to merely two senate seats in a chamber of 100. It is not realistic for California or Kentucky to expect equal status to the continental United States.

Similarly, it is unrealistic to expect China to treat Japan or Korea as equals. Japan is merely the size of one Chinese province. Korea is probably smaller than all of China's 23 provinces.

When a country is a mid-size power, it should behave like one. Japan and Korea have no problems following U.S. leadership. They should show similar deference to Chinese leadership on Asian issues.


Is the size of territory is really important? A big country run by a bunch of idiots or small country governs by smart people, which one you want to chose? If not because of the bad governance of Ching government during 17th to 18th centuries, westerners and Japan wouldn’t dare to invade China, at that time China territory was huge but administrated by a bunch of losers.

U.S is making exactly the same mistake of old Chinese imperial dynasties even today, because China didn’t treat states surrounding equally, we lost Korea and Vietnam as typical examples, even these two countries embraced our culture and use our writing, what we have done for them? Nothing…we treated them like a barbarians or inferior species and demand tribute from them…and as result they changed the writing and hate china and Chinese people up until now. As for US, most people in the world already embraced westerner culture and learn English after WWII (people did hard work to save money so their children can go to best English or western school) but U.S and western countries had reward them? Nothing…not only that, they looked down and mocked people around the world and treat others countries uncivilized ones, there is no equal in term of relation with westerners countries especially US even these hypocritical countries professed and valued human right and equality. I’m not exaggerated by saying that…one just needs rewind and watch the earlier movies from last 5 decades ago, it shown not only western supremacist (physic and intellectual) while other were either barbarians, weak, inferiors or losers. As US famous saying state “do as I say but don’t do as I do” and the outcome of this unfair & unequal treatment incited most countries to revolt and feel resentment toward western countries similar as Korea and Vietnam toward China few centuries ago.
Martian
QUOTE (Machao @ Feb 15 2010, 12:26 AM) *
Is the size of territory is really important? A big country run by a bunch of idiots or small country governs by smart people, which one you want to chose? If not because of the bad governance of Ching government during 17th to 18th centuries, westerners and Japan wouldn’t dare to invade China, at that time China territory was huge but administrated by a bunch of losers.

U.S is making exactly the same mistake of old Chinese imperial dynasties even today, because China didn’t treat states surrounding equally, we lost Korea and Vietnam as typical examples, even these two countries embraced our culture and use our writing, what we have done for them? Nothing…we treated them like a barbarians or inferior species and demand tribute from them…and as result they changed the writing and hate china and Chinese people up until now. As for US, most people in the world already embraced westerner culture and learn English after WWII (people did hard work to save money so their children can go to best English or western school) but U.S and western countries had reward them? Nothing…not only that, they looked down and mocked people around the world and treat others countries uncivilized ones, there is no equal in term of relation with westerners countries especially US even these hypocritical countries professed and valued human right and equality. I’m not exaggerated by saying that…one just needs rewind and watch the earlier movies from last 5 decades ago, it shown not only western supremacist (physic and intellectual) while other were either barbarians, weak, inferiors or losers. As US famous saying state “do as I say but don’t do as I do” and the outcome of this unfair & unequal treatment incited most countries to revolt and feel resentment toward western countries similar as Korea and Vietnam toward China few centuries ago.


I'm surprised that people outside of the United States do not believe that the size of a country matters. Most of the foreign policy articles that I've read consider territorial size to be an important factor. Let's hear it directly from the former most-powerful-man on the planet:

http://www.alternet.org/story/39164/

"The camera is focused elsewhere and it is not clear whom Bush is talking to, but possibly Chinese President Hu Jintao, a guest at the summit.

Bush: "Gotta go home. Got something to do tonight. Go to the airport, get on the airplane and go home. How about you? Where are you going? Home?

Bush: "This is your neighborhood. It doesn't take you long to get home. How long does it take you to get home?"

Reply is inaudible.

Bush: "Eight hours? Me too. Russia's a big country and you're a big country."

At this point, the president seems to bring someone else into the conversation.

Bush: "It takes him eight hours to fly home."

He turns his attention to a server.

Bush: "No, Diet Coke, Diet Coke."

He turns back to whomever he was talking with.

Bush: "It takes him eight hours to fly home. Eight hours. Russia's big and so is China.""
Martian
If you dislike former President Bush, here is a more academic view.

http://books.google.com/books?id=eGqi_3X-8...ory&f=false

"Felix Berenskoetter, Dr. Michael J. Williams - 2007 - Political Science - 316 pages

Proponents of the elements-of-national-power approach equate power with the ... national product (GNP), size of the armed forces, size of territory and population."
Martian
QUOTE (aziqbal @ Feb 14 2010, 05:12 PM) *
Israel did not recieve any military aid or even civilian aid apart from low interest loans until 1967, it was only after 1967 that all the aid started, and in 1967 Israel took out Syria, Jordan and Egypt backed by all arab states

Great Britain ruled 1/6 of the globe from a tiny island for over 250 years, size has nothing whatsoever to do with power projection

US re-built Japan and South Korea after WWII and Korean war, thats why they will do anything for US, again what has size of a country got to do with anything, Japan with no resources as a small nation took most of Asia and China in WII, I really dont know where u get ur ideas from that size = power or importance

Hong Kong and Singapore are two tiny islands yet 40% of worlds trade passes through them, should they bend over for Indonesia because its bigger in "size"?

Japan and Korea are two very powerful economic powers, and China has to accept that and do business accordingly, this inferiroity complex is what caused WWII


The clearest illustration of the importance of territory is the Russian strategy of "scorched earth" during World War II. Without a large country, the Nazis would have defeated Russia/Soviet Union in the same manner that the Nazis defeated the small and mid-sized European countries. Size matters.

Small and medium-sized countries may temporarily have outsized power and influence if they possess significantly more advanced military technology. Great Britain was a good example. Great Britain was the first to industrialize and temporarily controlled a significant portion of the Earth's landmass.

However, today, the technological gap between the U.S., Russia, and China is not that large. All three have thermonuclear weapons. All three have delivery vehicles in ICBMs and nuclear ballistic missile submarines. The U.S. was first with its fifth-generation F-22 fighter. The Russian fighter is expected to be ready by 2015. China has stated that her stealth superfighter will be ready by 2017-2019.

I cannot think of any small or mid-size country that can equal the U.S., Russia, or China in geographic size, military technology, and power. As I have already noted, geographic size provides strategic depth. It is virtually impossible for an invading army to occupy a continental-sized country. Furthermore, continental geographic-size also provides a continent's worth of almost-unlimited resources (i.e. raw materials and energy) to wage war.

http://in.china-embassy.org/eng/szyss/gjgk/t87583.htm

"China's Mineral Resources
(2004/04/22)

China is rich in mineral resources, and all the world's known minerals can be found here. To date, geologists have confirmed reserves of 153 different minerals, putting China third in the world in total reserves. The reserves of the major mineral resources, such as coal, iron, copper, aluminum, stibium, molybdenum, managese, tin, lead, zinc and mercury, are in the world's front rank. China's coal reserves total 1,007.1 billion tons, mainly distributed in north China, with Shanxi Province and the Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region taking the lead. China's 46.35 billion tons of iron ore are mainly distributed in northeast, north and southwest China. The country also abounds in petroleum, natural gas, oil shale, phosphorus and sulphur. Petroleum reserves are mainly found in the northwest, northeast and north China, as well as in the continental shelves of east China. The national reserves of rare earth metals far exceed the combined total for the rest of the world.

(www.china.org.cn)"
Machao
QUOTE
S.Korea, China, Japan Seek Security Cooperation
The government is reportedly seeking to establish a security dialogue body allowing bureau chiefs from South Korea, China and Japan to discuss military and security cooperation.

"Consultations are underway between Seoul, Beijing, and Tokyo to launch a tripartite security dialogue body this year," a government source on Monday said. "Officials from defense ministries in the three countries will take part in the body."

This will be the first such body. The three countries are expected to carry out substantial joint exercises rather than the mere humanitarian maritime search and rescue exercises they currently cooperate in.

The body is also expected to be helpful to building a multilateral security system in Northeast Asia. The idea is based on an agreement reached by the leaders of the three countries in Beijing in October last year, the source added.


link: http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_d...0021600692.html

Bravo
Martian
QUOTE (Machao @ Feb 17 2010, 01:34 PM) *


Who wants to be the first to say this is the beginning of an Asian NATO?
Martian
QUOTE (Martian @ Feb 17 2010, 02:44 PM) *
Who wants to be the first to say this is the beginning of an Asian NATO?


I might have said this before, but it is worth repeating. China is a continent with 9,671,018 sq. km of land. China represents one out of every 15 sq. km of land on Earth. China is not interested in four barren rocks in the Pacific Ocean. Also, China has no interest in occupying a tiny peninsula. The neighbors should stop being paranoid and realize that world politics has changed dramatically in the last 2,000 years.

With the exception of the Mongoloids that are currently under occupation in South Tibet, there is no real disagreement between China and its Himalayan neighbor. Someone made the astute observation that Chinese have no interest in governing Indians. It is strategic madness for a country to assume the responsibilities and burden of feeding, providing security, and modernizing India.

Similarly, with that other prickly nation called Vietnam, China has no interest in building bullet trains for other countries for free. The Chinese are not coming to provide effective and efficient government. You will have to solve your own problems. China is too busy trying to raise the living standards of her people to first-world levels. That is the Chinese dream.

Unnecessary war is for amateurs. Sun Tzu would disapprove.
Machao
QUOTE
Who wants to be the first to say this is the beginning of an Asian NATO?


Nato by definition is a military alliance, I don’t think Chinese neither Japan or Korea want this type of relation unless they want to gank up against a common enemy which it’s none for now. They want create security pack to prevent misunderstanding between them and to prevent others far far away foreign powers from taking advantage of their differences with divide and conquer tactic to maximize the political or economical gains. Especially China wants to deny U.S.A of selling CHINA THREAT around Asia and stir up animosity between Asian countries and China. For Japan and Korea, they’ have already tasted Uncle SAM’s medicine, they want to have an exit for future in case that U.S become nasty and assertive politically or economically.

To break away from US containment, China is already been member of SCO and Asian countries +3 (Japan, Korea and China), now it’s working to form North East Asian Security pack and the other front is Pakistan + India + China + Afghanistan security pack, I don’t know how feasible will be but India has nothing to lose unless it wants to play a containment game against China.
Martian
QUOTE (Machao @ Feb 17 2010, 10:06 PM) *
Nato by definition is a military alliance, I don’t think Chinese neither Japan or Korea want this type of relation unless they want to gank up against a common enemy which it’s none for now. They want create security pack to prevent misunderstanding between them and to prevent others far far away foreign powers from taking advantage of their differences with divide and conquer tactic to maximize the political or economical gains. Especially China wants to deny U.S.A of selling CHINA THREAT around Asia and stir up animosity between Asian countries and China. For Japan and Korea, they’ have already tasted Uncle SAM’s medicine, they want to have an exit for future in case that U.S become nasty and assertive politically or economically.

To break away from US containment, China is already been member of SCO and Asian countries +3 (Japan, Korea and China), now it’s working to form North East Asian Security pack and the other front is Pakistan + India + China + Afghanistan security pack, I don’t know how feasible will be but India has nothing to lose unless it wants to play a containment game against China.


Very good points. There is no external enemy. The aggressive Soviet Union (RIP 1917-1991; dead at "age 74") is no more. The United States is a busybody and anyway, she's stuck in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and maybe Yemen.

I can imagine a Northeast Asian Security meeting could be quite dull. Oh hey, I think a fishing boat crossed a border there. Yawn, time for everybody to go home.
Machao
QUOTE
Japan edges from America towards China


Sitting in his office in Tokyo last week, a senior official pointed to a recently published volume called “Japan Rising”. “I look at that book every now and then to cheer myself up,” he said. It is easy to understand why. Right now, Japan has got that sinking feeling.

China is about to overtake Japan as the world’s second-largest economy. The country’s national debt has hit an awesome 180 per cent of gross domestic product, (un)comfortably the highest in the world among rich countries – and there is no credible plan in place to hack it back. Toyota, a company that used to embody Japan’s reputation for quality, is enmeshed in a safety and public relations nightmare. Last year, the Japanese economy shrank by more than 5 per cent. And the high hopes that surrounded the reformist government of Yukio Hatoyama, the prime minister who was elected last summer, have quickly dissipated. Mr Hatoyama’s approval ratings are sinking and the Japanese business and civil service establishment seem eager to dismiss him as an ineffectual clown.
How Japan reacts to this new sense of weakness – exaggerated though it may be – will matter to the whole world. The country’s size and strategic importance make it critical to America’s Pacific strategy and to China’s geopolitical calculations.

As it adapts to Japan’s new circumstances the Hatoyama government has, almost unwittingly, initiated a debate about the value of Japan’s alliance with the US. Some western observers in Tokyo muse that perhaps Japan is once again following its historic policy of adapting to shifts in global politics by aligning itself with great powers. Before the first world war the country had a special relationship with Britain. In the inter-war period Japan allied itself with Germany. Since 1945, it has stuck closely to America. Perhaps the ground is being prepared for a new “special relationship” with China?

When Mr Hatoyama’s Democratic Party of Japan took power last August, it broke more than 50 years of almost continuous administration by the Liberal Democratic Party. The DPJ is keen to differentiate itself from the LDP in almost every respect, and foreign policy is no exception. In an interview last week, Katsuya Okada, Japan’s foreign minister, said that the LDP followed US foreign policy “too closely”. “From now onwards,” says Mr Okada, “this will be the age of Asia.” The foreign minister adds that talk of Japan choosing between China and the US is meaningless, and that Japan’s friendship with America will remain “qualitatively different” from its relations with China. But some DPJ party members have called for a policy of “equidistance” between China and the US.

The early policies of the Hatoyama government have confirmed the impression that something is afoot. The DPJ wants to move a vital US military base on the island of Okinawa– a move that has alarmed and angered the Americans and raised questions about the future of the US-Japan security treaty, and of the 50,000 or so US troops stationed in Japan.

If the Okinawa dispute was an isolated incident it might be taken as a bit of an accident, stemming as it did from a campaign promise. But Mr Hatoyama seems to have gone out of his way to confirm that things are changing. In an article for the New York Times, published just before he took office, he decried the failures of American capitalism – what he called “unrestrained market fundamentalism” – and implied that the US is in irreversible decline. The new Japanese prime minister has also spoken of establishing a new East Asian community, including China but excluding the US, and modelled on the early versions of the European Union.

The impression of a tilt away from America and towards China was confirmed last December when Ichiro Ozawa, the dominant figure in the DPJ, led a delegation of more than 600 Japanese to Beijing, including 143 parliamentarians. Hu Jintao, the Chinese president, posed smilingly for photos with every one of them. When Xi Jinping, tipped to be Mr Hu’s successor, visited Tokyo shortly afterwards, he was rushed in to see the emperor – the usual requirement that 30 days notice be given for such a visit was waived.

So what is Mr Hatoyama up to? The uneasy suspicion in Tokyo is that even the prime minister himself may not really know. Mr Hatoyama, it is said, often proposes grand- sounding schemes – whether on climate change or Okinawa – without really thinking them through.

The prime minister’s vagueness means that it is probably overdoing it to suggest that Japan is definitively shifting away from its postwar special relationship with the US. But, nonetheless, over the long term the country clearly faces a crucial strategic choice.

One option would be to assume that China is gradually going to displace the US as the dominant power in the Asia-Pacific region and, therefore, to try to cultivate a much warmer relationship with the government in Beijing. The alternative would be to hug the US even closer and to cultivate warmer relations with other democratic nations in the region, such as India and Australia, in what would be an undeclared policy of “soft containment” of Chinese power.

For the moment, it makes sense for Japan to aim for good relations with both the US and China. In the long run, Japan is likely to face an uncomfortable choice.



link: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4a7c23a2-2aef-11...144feabdc0.html

Soon or Later, Japan will join Asian club....US is in desperation now
eachus
QUOTE (Machao @ Mar 9 2010, 02:19 PM) *
Soon or Later, Japan will join Asian club....US is in desperation now



Japan and s.Korea join the Asia club for what? to against US? against Russia? you are joking!
before US withdraw from Japan and Korea, dont dream things will change. Japan and Korea will be running at the front when US has conflict with China. These are top dogs US has in Asia. Even India knows how to think before listen to Uncle Sam. Japan and Korea dont think, they are not allow to think nor say no.

get some sleep, dream too much will decrease your productivity at work.

Martian
QUOTE (eachus @ Mar 9 2010, 08:57 PM) *
Japan and s.Korea join the Asia club for what? to against US? against Russia? you are joking!
before US withdraw from Japan and Korea, dont dream things will change. Japan and Korea will be running at the front when US has conflict with China. These are top dogs US has in Asia. Even India knows how to think before listen to Uncle Sam. Japan and Korea dont think, they are not allow to think nor say no.

get some sleep, dream too much will decrease your productivity at work.


If the U.S. keeps bashing Toyota then Japanese attitudes may change towards the United States. Similarly, the refusal of the U.S. Congress to sign the Korea-U.S. FTA (i.e. free trade agreement) may change Korean views of the United States.

http://www.manilatimes.net/index.php/compo...-toyota-recalls
"Feb 16, 2010 ... TOKYO: Tokyo's outspoken governor has accused the US of using Toyota's safety troubles to “bash” Japan because of jealousy toward the ..."

http://www.cens.com/cens/html/en/news/news_inner_31460.html
"FTA Barriers
South Korean automakers’ overseas expansion has drawn some leery reaction and countermeasures from other nations. South Korea faces opposition from mainly American and European auto labor unions as it proposes to sign a free trade agreement (FTA) with the U.S. and EU.

The American Congress is withholding passing of the proposed FTA unless South Korea agrees to remove non-tariff trade barriers on imports of U.S.-made automobiles and electric products, alleging that South Korea imposes strict customs and inspection procedures on cars and auto parts from the U.S. Subjecting imports to excessively tedious inspections upon landing is a questionably legit way to set up trade barrier.

Being the 7th largest trading partner of the U.S., South Korea proposes the FTA in fact for mutual benefit, except for auto and several other items, according to analysts, with the FTA working for most American industries. Refusing to sign the FTA would result in an estimated US$35 billion losses in American exports annually, while South Korea has signed bilateral FTAs with many countries.

South Korea has just signed an FTA with the EU last December, with the FTA scheduled to become effective around the middle of this year; after which both sides will gradually reduce mutual tariffs on autos and parts to zero within 3-5 years.

South Korea is the 4th largest trading partner of the EU, with an annual trade of 76 billion euros in 2008. The FTA is seen to benefit South Korean automobile and parts makers considerably once the EU scraps the 10% import duty on South Korean-made cars and auto parts.

(by Michelle Hsu)"
Machao
QUOTE (eachus @ Mar 9 2010, 08:57 PM) *
Japan and s.Korea join the Asia club for what? to against US? against Russia? you are joking!
before US withdraw from Japan and Korea, dont dream things will change. Japan and Korea will be running at the front when US has conflict with China. These are top dogs US has in Asia. Even India knows how to think before listen to Uncle Sam. Japan and Korea dont think, they are not allow to think nor say no.

get some sleep, dream too much will decrease your productivity at work.



Do you think China wants to have Korea and Japan as permanent enemies? nor these two want to be permanent servants of US. Chinese gorverment will do what ever it takes to pull these two out of U.S sphere of influence, it's so "logically and naturally" obvious.

FYI I'm on vacation so I dont mind to have some overtime dream...hehe
jamchan
With S. Koreans claiming that the world is theirs, I can't see any reason that Chinese or Japanese being happy to ally with them.
gun_bandana.gif

Well, that's just a joke...
It'd be good if the three countries can form an ally to deal with the westen countries. But I doubt whether they can trust each other, you know after the history problems?
eachus
QUOTE (Machao @ Mar 9 2010, 11:32 PM) *
Do you think China wants to have Korea and Japan as permanent enemies? nor these two want to be permanent servants of US. Chinese gorverment will do what ever it takes to pull these two out of U.S sphere of influence, it's so "logically and naturally" obvious.

FYI I'm on vacation so I dont mind to have some overtime dream...hehe



what you want and what you can is a million miles different.

I believe you are not India, dont always over estimate yourself. It is a perfect world if China, Japan and Korea go together and have Russia is a plus. China tried in 3 years ago but Japan and Korea jumped out with some political arguments. we know what was the causes behind. Think in this way: If they join together created a East Asia economic union, who benefit more? who loses? if they make the Aisan Yen, that will be a huge impact on the dollar, these are direct and immediate threat to US supper power.

I tell you what is a perfect world in US global map, China becomes 5 to 20 small countries like EU. EU ends up and break into 27 countries like what they where. India too, nobody is strong than Korea as today, and each country hate each other which relies on US to help them smooth themselves, US is the world policeman and rule maker.

so, who ever against US's will, US must use its power to press it down. Do you believe Korea and Japan can not find its perfect world image? and do you believe they can stand on its own to claim its interest where it is not at US's best interest.

Korea wants to, but it can not go on its best interest.
Japan wants to, but it can not go on its best interest.
China wants to, but Japan and Korea can not go with China. China go alone.


Do you think China wants to have Korea and Japan as permanent enemies? China dont, but US insists. who can make things happen? who has the magic power, the super power today? China, Japan and Korea must stay and consider each other as enemy. they have no option. US wants to, none can change the status. because it is on best of US interest.

eachus
QUOTE (Martian @ Mar 9 2010, 11:04 PM) *
If the U.S. keeps bashing Toyota then Japanese attitudes may change towards the United States. Similarly, the refusal of the U.S. Congress to sign the Korea-U.S. FTA (i.e. free trade agreement) may change Korean views of the United States.



you still dont understand what is slave-master relationship.
you and your girld friend can brake up by a movies ticket or just one argument.
Japan and US dont. the more US beats Japan sh1t out from month, the more Japan enjoys it,
and Japan love US more. dont believe me, watch it out.
you dont understand Japanese, dont think in your Chinese way. They dont have
Chinese logic in head. Japan has their own culture.

Chinese gave Japan early education, forgive them on WW2. guess what,
they treat Chinese are fish meat. US dropped 2 nuke bombs on Japan,
Japan kisses US and call it daddy.

Machao
QUOTE (eachus @ Mar 11 2010, 02:42 PM) *
you still dont understand what is slave-master relationship.
you and your girld friend can brake up by a movies ticket or just one argument.
Japan and US dont. the more US beats Japan sh1t out from month, the more Japan enjoys it,
and Japan love US more. dont believe me, watch it out.
you dont understand Japanese, dont think in your Chinese way. They dont have
Chinese logic in head. Japan has their own culture.

Chinese gave Japan early education, forgive them on WW2. guess what,
they treat Chinese are fish meat. US dropped 2 nuke bombs on Japan,
Japan kisses US and call it daddy.



No matter how US exploits Japan or Korea: rape Japanese women, force these countries to finance U.S base and contribute for US military expanse such as Irak war…China can turn blind eyes but when US uses these two countries to contain or spread China threat in Asia then China certainly won’t accept that.
With China’s rise over these 30 years, it’s natural that these two countries to realize that there is some manoeuvring space vis-avis USA…and China should take this opportunity to open big arms to welcome them if not be at least “Friendlier” with them.

Some people still can’t forget of what Japanese did to China during WWII but remember Mongols and Manchurians did even worst during the conquest of China. Historically speaking, China’s power came with tolerance and forgiveness of historical enemies (don’t forget that it was Mongols that helped us to gain Tibet during Yuan dynasty and Manchurian got Xingjian during Ching Dynasty) and China wouldn’t be today if Han people only seek revenge and having a narrow mind toward other people..we won’t have such big country. In my opinions we should forgive the Japanese crime and open arms to accept them, I know it’s bloodily painful to accept that…but who knows maybe one day Japaneses will convert themselves into Chinese…LOL eachus will say that I’m dreaming again
eachus
Yes, basically yes.

you said one day Japanese will, which day? in 3010? a holly one 1,000 years later?
Japan wants can not over come US want. US wants them to be dogs, continue to be its own hunting dog. US beat up its own dog does not meant he will give the dog to China.
be real.

gnak
QUOTE (eachus @ Mar 12 2010, 06:12 AM) *
you still dont understand what is slave-master relationship.
you and your girld friend can brake up by a movies ticket or just one argument.
Japan and US dont. the more US beats Japan sh1t out from month, the more Japan enjoys it,
and Japan love US more. dont believe me, watch it out.
you dont understand Japanese, dont think in your Chinese way. They dont have
Chinese logic in head. Japan has their own culture.

Chinese gave Japan early education, forgive them on WW2. guess what,
they treat Chinese are fish meat. US dropped 2 nuke bombs on Japan,
Japan kisses US and call it daddy.

wow thats fuked up logic u got there... u make me ashamed to be chinese

normal logic is japan lost the war as result gave in to the conditions imposed by the victor

i think most chinese cant swallow their shame of getting beaten by a country 1 tenth their size

u know without japan china will not be where it is today ccp would have neva won the civil war.

if anyone has right to be pissed at japan is the kmt party in taiwan they lost the most.
Machao
QUOTE (eachus @ Mar 11 2010, 11:50 PM) *
Yes, basically yes.

you said one day Japanese will, which day? in 3010? a holly one 1,000 years later?
Japan wants can not over come US want. US wants them to be dogs, continue to be its own hunting dog. US beat up its own dog does not meant he will give the dog to China.
be real.


If we stop bashing Japanese then slowly they will realize the benefice of being coexist with us as same for Manchurians, no one during Song dynasty would have thought that the descendant of Jin people will merger with Han to form a great nation after few hundred years. Japnese don't have much choice but to be with American's side until U.S power waned out.
eachus
so in your logic without japan involved in civil war kmt is still ruling China? without japan china could not able to change any dynasty? open up a history book. China always refresh itself at the time is needed. I think most chinese can accept the fact that tons of military powers had invaded China in the last 200 years. The 2nd last invader was left China in 1997. UK is not bigger than Japan, compare with Portugal the last one is not even able to match a size of a japan island. China can take it why not Japan?

The facts are China had lost a war the Britain, also has lost a war to Portugal, not japan in ww2.
the world knows Japan lost the war, the WW2 war. Japan won battles but lost the war. assume you unknow UN, what does the UN 5 power mean, the veto power in UN proved they are 5 WW2 winners.

eachus
Machao, if you really like Uncle Sam's dog, dont waste time to negotiate with the dog. Talk to the owner directory. when the price is good, you take it home. China can not pay the price currently, and the bog will not leave the master at this moment. China is still 1/3 or less then 1/2 of economic size, 1/10 of military size.

money talks, bullsh1t walks.
Machao
QUOTE (eachus @ Mar 12 2010, 12:10 PM) *
Machao, if you really like Uncle Sam's dog, dont waste time to negotiate with the dog. Talk to the owner directory. when the price is good, you take it home. China can not pay the price currently, and the bog will not leave the master at this moment. China is still 1/3 or less then 1/2 of economic size, 1/10 of military size.

money talks, bullsh1t walks.


LOL...Japan acts for it own interest regardless of loyalty or friendship, they will kick U.S butt once it become useless, for now they still need U.S for market, technological and military cooperation to counter China and partially Russia, they certainly have their own agenda certainly not brainless as you pretend them as dog...just blindly follow their master. If they're 2nd in economical power and technological most advance in Asia simply mean that they have used their brains to court peoples (in this case Americans and westerners) that give them the most benefice... c'mon man be realistic.
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