It is obvious that Pakistan cannot regain an advantage over India or even bring in a balance in the current military scenario by out buying India or by buying better things than them or more systems than them. India is a bigger economy, they are growing faster, they are richer, they have more political influence, they have more sellers, they are the better buyer, lets be frank, Pakistan cannot compete like this.
However there is a way by which we can gain the edge, it’s by using better technology. Now at this point many of you will be thinking that “this guy wants us to buy better toys than them”, we all know that is impossible, what I want us to do is buy toys which can break their toys better than they can break our toys.
Hear me through; here are a few thoughts;
[1] Micro satellites- suicide bomber Satellites you could call them, send satellites into space, their sole purpose to locate India satellites and explode next to them to wipe them out at a time of war. This would make India quire blind really, and help us immensely. Whilst on the subject of satellites, I think it is high time we launched a lot more spy satellites to help us know their movements. A simple action like that could give us a huge edge in a war time Scenario.
[2] Un-Islamic warfare- Nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. All three types of warheads are used against innocent civilians and are weapons of terror; however their presence can cause a huge amount of fear and can stop a lot of people taking pointless “pangaay” with you. Vast stocks of lethal biological and chemical agents as well as nuclear warheads in wartime can be used to make sure, that if you go down; your enemy are guaranteed to go with you. These however need excellent and accurate deployment systems in place and lots of them.
[3] “The longer reach”- Our Air force and navy cannot compare with India blow by blow, so we need to arm them with missiles be they surface to surface (naval) or air to air (air force) that have a longer range than Indian missiles and do not compromise accuracy, so that our weapons systems provide a potent threat to them, not cannon fodder to slow them down.
[4] Electronic warfare- The modern battle field, a new frontier for warfare. We need to be able to jam any enemy system, we need to be able to control their computers, to be able to intercept their messages. In the past Pakistan Navy ships have been capable of Jamming Indian weapons systems, this needs to be ensured throughout the field so that we can take them out, without them being able to harm us.
Now all that I have mentioned seems pretty far fetched and hi-tech, but the truth of the matter is that we already have these capabilities and/or are developing them. All that is required is a bit more money and a bit more effort and in 10 years time, we will not only be respected by India but by any foe.
Full Version: Qualitative Edge
What....203 viewings, no replies?
For once I am very happy to see a very sane topic to be discussed here. Not the Pakistan Army has more josh types.
Well Plat,
The points you have put forward are interesting. Some are valid. But in the case of technologies that you mentioned, both Pakistan and India are behind, like in micro satellites. In some cases India is miles ahead of Pakistan in terms of research, infrastructure, force multiplyers and defence systems, like missiles and electronic warfare. But these points and more can be discussed.
Well Plat,
The points you have put forward are interesting. Some are valid. But in the case of technologies that you mentioned, both Pakistan and India are behind, like in micro satellites. In some cases India is miles ahead of Pakistan in terms of research, infrastructure, force multiplyers and defence systems, like missiles and electronic warfare. But these points and more can be discussed.
wow, a reply.......!!
MKI, ut yourself in our shoes.....good plan i got innit?!
lets hope it all remains forever as plans, and plans only.
MKI, ut yourself in our shoes.....good plan i got innit?!
lets hope it all remains forever as plans, and plans only.
Unislamic warfare rofl. 
good one mate.
you have put forth some quite intresting points plat.
ok here are my opinions on each of the bullet points.
good idea but will be quite expensive what about the links if they can not use them they re good as dead arnt they?.... the indians have UAVs aswell which will also be a problem as they are considered mini satalites they can be used to layout higly scalable communications networks, reconisence networks, hence we should also considor these as a threat and move towards better batlefield radars which will help us detect and destroy these UAVs. and give the aded advantage of locating incoming shells which will give early warning/pinpoint location of enemy battries.
they clearly have greater ammounts but we sure have better delivry systems. we should further improve the delivery systems not just the rockets target location, guidence, faster reactions and better detection of incomig. and also increase the stockpiles so we have greater ammounts then them.
the americans realised it wasnt the fighter any more that was important it was the missille. cool idea.
also should consider UAVs. we need more.
good one mate.you have put forth some quite intresting points plat.
ok here are my opinions on each of the bullet points.
QUOTE
[1] Micro satellites- suicide bomber Satellites you could call them, send satellites into space, their sole purpose to locate India satellites and explode next to them to wipe them out at a time of war. This would make India quire blind really, and help us immensely. Whilst on the subject of satellites, I think it is high time we launched a lot more spy satellites to help us know their movements. A simple action like that could give us a huge edge in a war time Scenario.
good idea but will be quite expensive what about the links if they can not use them they re good as dead arnt they?.... the indians have UAVs aswell which will also be a problem as they are considered mini satalites they can be used to layout higly scalable communications networks, reconisence networks, hence we should also considor these as a threat and move towards better batlefield radars which will help us detect and destroy these UAVs. and give the aded advantage of locating incoming shells which will give early warning/pinpoint location of enemy battries.
QUOTE
[2] Un-Islamic warfare- Nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. All three types of warheads are used against innocent civilians and are weapons of terror; however their presence can cause a huge amount of fear and can stop a lot of people taking pointless “pangaay” with you. Vast stocks of lethal biological and chemical agents as well as nuclear warheads in wartime can be used to make sure, that if you go down; your enemy are guaranteed to go with you. These however need excellent and accurate deployment systems in place and lots of them.
they clearly have greater ammounts but we sure have better delivry systems. we should further improve the delivery systems not just the rockets target location, guidence, faster reactions and better detection of incomig. and also increase the stockpiles so we have greater ammounts then them.
QUOTE
[3] “The longer reach”- Our Air force and navy cannot compare with India blow by blow, so we need to arm them with missiles be they surface to surface (naval) or air to air (air force) that have a longer range than Indian missiles and do not compromise accuracy, so that our weapons systems provide a potent threat to them, not cannon fodder to slow them down.
the americans realised it wasnt the fighter any more that was important it was the missille. cool idea.
QUOTE
[4] Electronic warfare- The modern battle field, a new frontier for warfare. We need to be able to jam any enemy system, we need to be able to control their computers, to be able to intercept their messages. In the past Pakistan Navy ships have been capable of Jamming Indian weapons systems, this needs to be ensured throughout the field so that we can take them out, without them being able to harm us.
also should consider UAVs. we need more.
Wells it true....using a WMD is unislamic, islam prohibits us from marching our armies thru fields of crops, islam does not permit us to kill millions.
Under no circumstances.
I mean think about it, a nuclear attack if being defeated would even be an act of revenge, revenge is forbidden in war also fora muslim.
These lil mullah kids like to always talk big about nuking this nuking that, the next time they mention it, i'm gonna ram this bomb up thier ass.
anyways...
Your right UAV's are a threat but my point of taking out Satteltites is that India is absolutely massive, without them communications would be incredibly difficult and then so would logistics and coordination.
Under no circumstances.
I mean think about it, a nuclear attack if being defeated would even be an act of revenge, revenge is forbidden in war also fora muslim.
These lil mullah kids like to always talk big about nuking this nuking that, the next time they mention it, i'm gonna ram this bomb up thier ass.
anyways...
Your right UAV's are a threat but my point of taking out Satteltites is that India is absolutely massive, without them communications would be incredibly difficult and then so would logistics and coordination.
QUOTE
I wanted to add to that thread my views -
This approach to military build-up is not applicable in all conditions, possibly will be of use only in attrition warfare.
Use of NBC will not be possible unless Pakistan's existance comes under threat. And to understand the relevence of your own point in detail, you should examine India's new doctrine - Cold Start. This doctrine itself states that Pakistan's annexation is not the military purpose of India..but the purpose is to paralyse the military and economic infrastructure of Pakistan through swift but limited ops, using integrated battle groups of IA, IAF and even IN when required. Time frame is supposed to be so short that Pakistan won't think of using NBC, and the conflict will come to an end through intervention of UN within a short time. Result is supposed to be minimum losses, maximum infrastructural damage.
There are pros and cons of this doctrine, through proper understanding of which, pakistani forces can disrupt Indian operations.
Pros - Fast movement of battle groups, rapid deplyoment of assets, movement continues 24x7, efficient use of smaller forces, least possible losses.
Cons - Battle groups will be holding (now pivotal) corps and not the original strike corps, requires extensive recce and surviellance capabilities, requires extensive use of special forces in an expanded role (like Gulf War-2), leaves some sectors vulnerable to counter-attack if enemy decided to do so, requires bold leadership which is not always possible, not suitable to all terrains, takes away the numerical advantage of 3 strike corps vs pakistan's 2.
To counter a force working under this doctrine, there is only way which has been a favourite for even Sun Tzu - Asymmetrical Warfare. Instead of matching India with conventional capabilties (like say an F-16 for a Mirage-2000), Pakistan should develop/acquire systems that can inflict maximum damage and even put the enemy on the defensive.
The measures that Pakistan should take are -
Raise more battalions of SSG/NSSG and make them Air Assault qualified, with the best equipment possible. Their role would be not to counter the Indian attack, but to conduct offensive raid under any circumstances. An Indian offensive in the western desert sector will trigger off an airborne assault towards Srinagar and increase in infiltration towards Kashmir. India, under any circumstannces cannot let kashmir slip away....and will divert forces to take care of the situation. Such military decisions that are taken due to symbolic reasons and not military ones, prove to be real bad ones (Stalingrad !!!). Slowing of operations would mean negation of the doctrine.
Induct/produce an effective long-range SAM system and deploy in key sectors (not to be mistaken with key installations). The SAMs should be placed in the sectors where the offensive will be launched (it is predictable coz a swift offensive is possible only in the plains). A cloud cover is already formed by the Anza series missiles for low-level fliers.
The doctrine focusses on rapid movement and killing anything that comes in way. Battle groups move fast, logistics don't. Pakistan has enough space to let a battle group deep inside (retreat enough to encircle and kill) where logistics take time to reach. Use extreme force to take out the sapped enemy.
Conduct assasinations in India using pre-set spies/terrorists. Create unrest in smaller areas using Psychological warfare.
Civilians combat groups (partly drawn from the army/police) should be organized in economically strong cities (which are obviuos targets). They should be armed with ManPADS, ATGMs, sniper rifles, RPGs and other standard infantry equipment. While avoiding attrition warfare with the Pakistani armed forces, the enemy will be forced to conduct attrition warfare with the civilians.
The advantage that Pakistan has in terms of SP artillary should be further increased and towed artillary should be improved also.
Recce capabilites have to improved - induct AWACS, limited use of satellites (bahut costly hai bhai), expand the role of SSG from traditional commando ops to a recce/designator force, increase army aviation capabilities.
I don't know what i'm writing coz i'm sleeping......zzzzzzzzzzz !!!!
VIPER
This approach to military build-up is not applicable in all conditions, possibly will be of use only in attrition warfare.
Use of NBC will not be possible unless Pakistan's existance comes under threat. And to understand the relevence of your own point in detail, you should examine India's new doctrine - Cold Start. This doctrine itself states that Pakistan's annexation is not the military purpose of India..but the purpose is to paralyse the military and economic infrastructure of Pakistan through swift but limited ops, using integrated battle groups of IA, IAF and even IN when required. Time frame is supposed to be so short that Pakistan won't think of using NBC, and the conflict will come to an end through intervention of UN within a short time. Result is supposed to be minimum losses, maximum infrastructural damage.
There are pros and cons of this doctrine, through proper understanding of which, pakistani forces can disrupt Indian operations.
Pros - Fast movement of battle groups, rapid deplyoment of assets, movement continues 24x7, efficient use of smaller forces, least possible losses.
Cons - Battle groups will be holding (now pivotal) corps and not the original strike corps, requires extensive recce and surviellance capabilities, requires extensive use of special forces in an expanded role (like Gulf War-2), leaves some sectors vulnerable to counter-attack if enemy decided to do so, requires bold leadership which is not always possible, not suitable to all terrains, takes away the numerical advantage of 3 strike corps vs pakistan's 2.
To counter a force working under this doctrine, there is only way which has been a favourite for even Sun Tzu - Asymmetrical Warfare. Instead of matching India with conventional capabilties (like say an F-16 for a Mirage-2000), Pakistan should develop/acquire systems that can inflict maximum damage and even put the enemy on the defensive.
The measures that Pakistan should take are -
Raise more battalions of SSG/NSSG and make them Air Assault qualified, with the best equipment possible. Their role would be not to counter the Indian attack, but to conduct offensive raid under any circumstances. An Indian offensive in the western desert sector will trigger off an airborne assault towards Srinagar and increase in infiltration towards Kashmir. India, under any circumstannces cannot let kashmir slip away....and will divert forces to take care of the situation. Such military decisions that are taken due to symbolic reasons and not military ones, prove to be real bad ones (Stalingrad !!!). Slowing of operations would mean negation of the doctrine.
Induct/produce an effective long-range SAM system and deploy in key sectors (not to be mistaken with key installations). The SAMs should be placed in the sectors where the offensive will be launched (it is predictable coz a swift offensive is possible only in the plains). A cloud cover is already formed by the Anza series missiles for low-level fliers.
The doctrine focusses on rapid movement and killing anything that comes in way. Battle groups move fast, logistics don't. Pakistan has enough space to let a battle group deep inside (retreat enough to encircle and kill) where logistics take time to reach. Use extreme force to take out the sapped enemy.
Conduct assasinations in India using pre-set spies/terrorists. Create unrest in smaller areas using Psychological warfare.
Civilians combat groups (partly drawn from the army/police) should be organized in economically strong cities (which are obviuos targets). They should be armed with ManPADS, ATGMs, sniper rifles, RPGs and other standard infantry equipment. While avoiding attrition warfare with the Pakistani armed forces, the enemy will be forced to conduct attrition warfare with the civilians.
The advantage that Pakistan has in terms of SP artillary should be further increased and towed artillary should be improved also.
Recce capabilites have to improved - induct AWACS, limited use of satellites (bahut costly hai bhai), expand the role of SSG from traditional commando ops to a recce/designator force, increase army aviation capabilities.
I don't know what i'm writing coz i'm sleeping......zzzzzzzzzzz !!!!
VIPER
viper pm me to add this.
BTW viper good idea of letting them in. like the lost nepolions army;). nice.
Pakistan published a statement saying they will consider coldstart a full assult and will respond accordingly, and also if pakistan economic structure is damaged beyound a certain limit that also allows for a WMD strike.
also i think NBC means nuclear/Biological/chemical. not sure i PM him to check.
platinum too right but what is your view about using such weopens against militry. also to add we have a shell which explodes and lets out radiation hence giving severe radiation poisening to people arround the place where it lands also who evver sees the flash has a chance of getting blinded becouse of te intensity of the radiation (my mate told me
after i showed him them shells in IDEX from POF)
to be honest i consider the use of NBC weapons wrong morally and ethically, but during times of war, i put my morals and ethics to one side, plenty of time for them afterwards.
I see where Viper is coming from WRT cold start, but i feel that my stratergy would not allow cold start to even be a possobility, India needs to be able to see and hear and speak to fight, if we cut out ti's tounge, gouge out it's etyes and pop it's eardrums right at the start of the war, what is left for them to fight with?
I see where Viper is coming from WRT cold start, but i feel that my stratergy would not allow cold start to even be a possobility, India needs to be able to see and hear and speak to fight, if we cut out ti's tounge, gouge out it's etyes and pop it's eardrums right at the start of the war, what is left for them to fight with?
so basicly you mean a less capable fighter such as pakistan fights some one who is far more capable yet can not control his arms etc, paralised or drunk you can say.....but what about the redundency systems? although if we take their comms down out of the blue and blitzkrieg so when they get onto redundancy systems it is too late to turn the tide...
plat do you think we should train more commandos?
plat do you think we should train more commandos?
If that is the dirty type of war they want to fight, we have got to be able to counter, it yes more commando's trained to do that same thing back would be a good idea, but realistically how much can they do?
I think to disable them and them have surgical strikes using cruise misisles and aircraft is a much better way of getting back at them, imagine if we could regularly "interfere" with IN ships.....they'd be sitting ducks waiting to be sunk....
A massive navy paralysed by excellent jamming techniques....
I think to disable them and them have surgical strikes using cruise misisles and aircraft is a much better way of getting back at them, imagine if we could regularly "interfere" with IN ships.....they'd be sitting ducks waiting to be sunk....
A massive navy paralysed by excellent jamming techniques....
what about ISI agents tracking logistics of the indian army so we can monitor whats going where and get a picture of the thing...
also the jamming thing is a good idea but they will still be able to make blockade less forcefull indeed but a blockade....what about doing to them what the english did to the u boats in atlantique and also the americans to the japanese fleet which was sent to midway.
if we can feel there pulse we will be able to know when they are most vulnerable and will be able to take them out much more easily (imagine comaddnoing em and taking over there fleet lol that will be funni indeed)
also the jamming thing is a good idea but they will still be able to make blockade less forcefull indeed but a blockade....what about doing to them what the english did to the u boats in atlantique and also the americans to the japanese fleet which was sent to midway.
if we can feel there pulse we will be able to know when they are most vulnerable and will be able to take them out much more easily (imagine comaddnoing em and taking over there fleet lol that will be funni indeed)
to be honest that's probably more fit for movies....
i meant breaking codes etc....knowing what they are thinking...
btw the taking over of fleet was a joke lol.
what about locating them and sending torpedo boats in for a fast mission or a excocet strike...
btw the taking over of fleet was a joke lol.
what about locating them and sending torpedo boats in for a fast mission or a excocet strike...
Limiting Nuclear blast radius to the radius of a regular battlefield, keeping it far away from civilians, and killing only enemy combatants. Basically, Mini-Nukes, used against fleets, large amount of troops, etc. All WMD should be limited to battlefields, and kept away from civilians. Ofcourse, this would make us no different from the Germans during WW1 in the Battle of the Somme, "Da Blutbad", was one of the only times WMD was used in a battle, without killing a lot of civilians in the process. However, such actions should be kept as a very desperate measure, if all hope in conventional normal warfare is lost.
More Recce, get enemy formations, basically, that'd mean using satellites, or ultra-high-altitude UAVs to take photos of enemy formations pointed at Pakistan. In addition to that, Pakistan should try to use much less to divert, and/or deal severe blows to these enemy formations. The less we use, the longer we can keep a war going, giving us more time to accomplish our goals.
Less use, more damage. Basically a detailed explaination of what I meant above. Instead of sending everything we got in a few battles, we should use less of what we have, so we use less resources. If we know where and when the enemy is likely to attack, we should use a limited amount of troops and vehicles, use more missiles, and such. Use these missiles to deal heavy blows to enemy formations. Use fighter jets to fire cruise missiles, and glide bombs, use helicopters to unleash a barrage of anti-tank and anti-infantry missiles, use missile launcher mounted APCs etc.
An offensive oriented Armoured Force, during war, we should have around 1000 Al Khalid and T-80UD Tanks, as well as APCs, and troop transports, ready for an offensive into enemy soil. Better transportation, easier logistical set ups, ability to build quick field bases, etc. My suggesstion is to have 200 T-80UD Tanks, 300 Al Khalid Tanks, 500 APCs, IFVs, etc, etc armed with Anti-Tank and Anti-Infantry missiles. In addition, have two fighter squadrons to provide support, two transport helicopter squadrons, and atleast one attack helicopter squadron. This force should always be mobilized and geared for war, so at any time, before the enemy can do anything, deal a hard hitting blow.
More Recce, get enemy formations, basically, that'd mean using satellites, or ultra-high-altitude UAVs to take photos of enemy formations pointed at Pakistan. In addition to that, Pakistan should try to use much less to divert, and/or deal severe blows to these enemy formations. The less we use, the longer we can keep a war going, giving us more time to accomplish our goals.
Less use, more damage. Basically a detailed explaination of what I meant above. Instead of sending everything we got in a few battles, we should use less of what we have, so we use less resources. If we know where and when the enemy is likely to attack, we should use a limited amount of troops and vehicles, use more missiles, and such. Use these missiles to deal heavy blows to enemy formations. Use fighter jets to fire cruise missiles, and glide bombs, use helicopters to unleash a barrage of anti-tank and anti-infantry missiles, use missile launcher mounted APCs etc.
An offensive oriented Armoured Force, during war, we should have around 1000 Al Khalid and T-80UD Tanks, as well as APCs, and troop transports, ready for an offensive into enemy soil. Better transportation, easier logistical set ups, ability to build quick field bases, etc. My suggesstion is to have 200 T-80UD Tanks, 300 Al Khalid Tanks, 500 APCs, IFVs, etc, etc armed with Anti-Tank and Anti-Infantry missiles. In addition, have two fighter squadrons to provide support, two transport helicopter squadrons, and atleast one attack helicopter squadron. This force should always be mobilized and geared for war, so at any time, before the enemy can do anything, deal a hard hitting blow.
Pakistan Army is working on plans to get a lot of mobility and fire power by getting almost 70 Cobras (Upgraded), and loads of other American and Russian Transport Helicopters. And with moderen systems like Al-Kahlid, T-80, and APC they can really bring it on for Indian Armor in near future. But Air Force support is very important in some cases and JF 17 should be able to fill in the spot. But with MAN PADS and Med Range SAM Army can hold its own in battle field. Pakistan needs to sharp its edge and be able to move faster and concentrate their fire power in able to do good amount of damage to IA.
now your getting my thinking lads....mix your points with with my idea of force multipliers and we have an armed force that can stop any agressor, not just India.
if we get a system like the indian sathi it can help the coordination side of things. we will need UAV based navigation system but the problem there is how do UAVs know where they are.......we have those cruise missiles doent we, so i sugest we can salvage some things out of that and work towards a positioning system for the comm uavs which is based on recognising the geography.......
this will allow us to reduce the reaction time for our forces. and a single command for the air and ground units in divings force will improve coordination...
this will allow us to reduce the reaction time for our forces. and a single command for the air and ground units in divings force will improve coordination...
I think we can only compete with india currently by having a technological advantage.India has too much money.
Maybe in the future we could have both a quantitative and qualitative advantage over India
Maybe in the future we could have both a quantitative and qualitative advantage over India
I think the PAF should not let the numerical ratio drop by more than 1:2 in IAF's favour, keeping such a ratio is itself a huge thing. However, in terms of advanced planes, we should keep it higher than 1:2, 1:1 if possible. Consider this, the IAF has 700 fighter planes, we have 350, out of our 350, they're all able to take on ANY IAF fighter, whereas, 350 of IAF's planes will fall prey to ours. This would make our PAF VERY formidable, we're defending 1/3 the airspace India is, but we have 1:2 the number of total aircraft (given in war, India won't send all of its jets against us, the number falls close to 1:1), and quality wise, it also falls close to 1:1.
QUOTE
It is obvious that Pakistan cannot regain an advantage over India or even bring in a balance in the current military scenario by out buying India or by buying better things than them or more systems than them. India is a bigger economy, they are growing faster, they are richer, they have more political influence, they have more sellers, they are the better buyer, lets be frank, Pakistan cannot compete like this.
Quality overall costs money, have to find/make a weakness to exploit. India and Pakistan right now are a lot closer on the ground then in the air or sea.
Train independent anti tank commandos to hit Indian armor and cause confusion in their rear lines. Not talking about units assigned to a division or regiment. Hand them out Type-69s (RPG-7s), rifle grenades (on AUGs to deal with light things) and man portable HJ-8s (at platoon levels) and let them go loose on India armored units and supply convoys. Get the new tandem rockets for the RPGs to deal with modern armor. Maybe even look at RPG-18s to hand out to riflemen who are not carrying Type-69s. Put something like 2 Type-69s (or more) at the squad level. Form battalions of soldiers trained to hunt armor and use terrain and cover to move around on foot to cut roads and kill enemy armor and enemy personal carriers. Have them also issued with Azna Mk.2s to deal with enemy helicopters. Well trained tank hunting ranger light infantry could be well employed to kill enemy armor and hurt supply lines. Have them ready for action as well to go when the first enemy units cross the border to hit as soon as possible.
That is not really a job for the SSG (too "regular" of a job) and not really a job for regular infantry (too "elite" of a job). Syria did it to great effect in 1982 and Egypt did it well in 1973. Even if the forces just cause a delaying action (best one should hope for) it could help in launching counter attacks and be good for morale (photo ops with tank hunters).
Use the SSG to raid enemy supply lines, recce, to try and hit airbases (probably will have little to none effect other then making airbase guys jumpy) and hit enemy officers. And try to have them do such at the start of the war. Even if they have to team with sleeper cells (ISI/terrorists/guerillas) to act as soon as possible to inflict some sort of damage. Hell it would just look good even if it did not on its own shape the outcome. And a bigger use could be to put small tams behind the lines with radios to call in artillery actions. The SADF did this in Angola using SF teams to call in G-5s and G-6s on enemy positions in their own rear without the teams being found. It causes confusion and makes for deadly shelling.
Get more anti tank helicopters, light ones like the MD-530 or BO-105s with TOWs. Not much armor but can use terrain to move around unseen and pop up to hit with TOWs and 70mm rockets on enemy armor and supply convoys. Keep at stand off ranges (from enemy machine guns). Deploy more Mi-8s and Mi-17s to move elite troops to where needed on the battlefield plus to pick up downed pilots and move supplies to foward or cut off units. Might even hit a sleepy sector with an airmobile assault with heavily armed units to hold some border towns for peace talks. Reinforce them with ground units quickly, dig in and fight off counterattacks until a cease fire is agreed to. Even if they have to pull out if they inflict some major damage to counter attacking forces it is a victory of sorts.
Purchase squad automatic weapons in 5.56mm like the FN-Minimi, Ultimax-100, MG-43 or Ameli to increase firepower at the squad and fireteam levels. India uses the INSAS-LMG which offers their soldiers 30 rounds (rifles generally issue 20), so it could provide an over match in firepower. FN-Minimis, MG-43s and Amelis can deploy up to 200 rounds and the Ultimax-100 can deploy up to 100 and all offer quick change barrels. That provides one with a lot of firepower compared to changing magazines every 30 rounds and every rifleman having 20 rounds.
Issue AUGs (with the option of barrel mounted rifle grenades) to front line soldiers along with some deploying under barrel M-203s (or CIS-40GL or HK-79) along with Type-69s (RPG-7s) and a SAW to increase infantry firepower. The AUG is built in Malaysia now so a deal might be worked out to supply them with weapons in exchange or just get the damn license to build them. Maybe 7 AUGs, 2 SAWs, 1 Type-69 and 2 M-203s (attaced to AUGs) to the 10 man squad. Push up the MG-3 to the platoon fire support level. Invest in FAE warheads for Type-69s and other nasty rockets to increase squad level killing power on enemy infantry. Get some Kevlar helmets and vests and and you're good to go. Might have to cut back on the numbers of soldiers a bit.
Snipers, snipers, snipers. And get some sort of platoon level DM weapon like scoped G-3s to hit at longer ranges. Deploy sniper squads and platoons to go behind the lines to hit enemy officers. Just to make them feel unsafe.
Increase the number of self propelled artillery and armored personal carriers. Artillery is still king of the battlefield and Pakistan right now has something liek 150 M-109s (India has no SP artillery). Also see if an under the table deal with Israel with China as the middleman (tell the public China is doing this not Israel) can be done with the Type-59/M-46s (130mm) to give them a longer barrel in 155mm (around 227 Type-59s in service). Upgrade the M-114s (155mm) with a longer barrel like the Austrian made long range GHC-45 (155mm). See if more M-110A2s can be found to give heavy batteries even more killing power (the shell of the M-110 is very big and like getting hit with a damn bomb). To bad the PA never got the really long range SPed M-107 (175mm). Also invest in more MLRS systems. Artillery through out history has been the big killer on the battlefield.
Some sort of mobile anti aircraft system is needed as well in case India takes control of the skies and PA armored units need to fight without much air cover. More SAMs (radar guided) are needed.
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Yeah none of this stuff could win on its own. The next war it seems would be another border clash with both sides trying to grab enough ground to hold for talks. Both sides would lose ground. The "Cold Start" is to rapidly take ground and hold a cease fire talk.
Techonlogy and quality cost money and thus I think India could outspend Pakistan, so you gotta go more outside the box, find/make a weakness and aim to shock...
Good stratergy...hit them with the little guys....right now that can be used very effectively and even in the future.
Platinum said,
I have a question. Did Pakistan sign a treaty with U.S for against the use or making of biological weapons? Because I think U.S doesn't make them anymore because they are dangerous as hell. U.S signed a treaty with Russia and 100 other countries for the banning of biological weapons but at times Russia thought that they need to advance there biological weapons they made a very superior labortory in Russia which could kill the human population 9 times. Biological weapons can be spreaded in the air by a jet. Those germ are mainly in form of smoke or gas, if anyone breaths it. It will die in matter of minutes. And about the chemical weapons they are effective against the enemy bases but are very expesive just like nuclear weapons. In my opinion Biological weapons are dirty and shouldn't be made by Pakistan even for the use against India, because it gives a very horrible death, more than the nuclear one.
QUOTE
Nuclear, biological and chemical weapons. All three types of warheads are used against innocent civilians and are weapons of terror; however their presence can cause a huge amount of fear and can stop a lot of people taking pointless “pangaay” with you. Vast stocks of lethal biological and chemical agents as well as nuclear warheads in wartime can be used to make sure, that if you go down; your enemy are guaranteed to go with you. These however need excellent and accurate deployment systems in place and lots of them.
I have a question. Did Pakistan sign a treaty with U.S for against the use or making of biological weapons? Because I think U.S doesn't make them anymore because they are dangerous as hell. U.S signed a treaty with Russia and 100 other countries for the banning of biological weapons but at times Russia thought that they need to advance there biological weapons they made a very superior labortory in Russia which could kill the human population 9 times. Biological weapons can be spreaded in the air by a jet. Those germ are mainly in form of smoke or gas, if anyone breaths it. It will die in matter of minutes. And about the chemical weapons they are effective against the enemy bases but are very expesive just like nuclear weapons. In my opinion Biological weapons are dirty and shouldn't be made by Pakistan even for the use against India, because it gives a very horrible death, more than the nuclear one.
In regards to the Air Force, well i would have to say that there is alot of stuff to be aquired in terms of "Quality". That is ofcourse if there is a serious approach towards gaining the qualitative edge that PAF once had over its adversary!
> AWE- Eyries & Hawkeyes.
> BVR (active homing)-PL-12s & AIM-120s C/7.
> WVR (infra-red)-AIM-9Xs, MICA-IRs.
> AESA radars-AN/AGP-68s V(5).
> HMS- JHMCSs.
In my view, these are the bare-essentials that PAF needs to thwart any air-aggression!
> AWE- Eyries & Hawkeyes.
> BVR (active homing)-PL-12s & AIM-120s C/7.
> WVR (infra-red)-AIM-9Xs, MICA-IRs.
> AESA radars-AN/AGP-68s V(5).
> HMS- JHMCSs.
In my view, these are the bare-essentials that PAF needs to thwart any air-aggression!
QUOTE(Dizasta76 @ May 16 2005, 01:27 AM)
In regards to the Air Force, well i would have to say that there is alot of stuff to be aquired in terms of "Quality". That is ofcourse if there is a serious approach towards gaining the qualitative edge that PAF once had over its adversary!
> AWE- Eyries & Hawkeyes.
> BVR (active homing)-PL-12s & AIM-120s C/7.
> WVR (infra-red)-AIM-9Xs, MICA-IRs.
> AESA radars-AN/AGP-68s V(5).
> HMS- JHMCSs.
In my view, these are the bare-essentials that PAF needs to thwart any air-aggression!
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> AWE- Eyries & Hawkeyes.
> BVR (active homing)-PL-12s & AIM-120s C/7.
> WVR (infra-red)-AIM-9Xs, MICA-IRs.
> AESA radars-AN/AGP-68s V(5).
> HMS- JHMCSs.
In my view, these are the bare-essentials that PAF needs to thwart any air-aggression!
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Pakistan needs to be a super role model for Muslim world, whole Muslim world lacks technology, economy, and superiority. This is the main reason why we are losing again and again. One country beat the shit out of whole arab countries. Only damn ONE country not even size of punjab. Once there was a time when we were proud to say we are Muslims, we're are relatives of Sallah-uddin, but..time has changed. But as i see right now this Pakistan will surely become a bright light in Muslim world, in the history, and nothing will be able to get rid of us from the map. I hope this happens, I hope one day we will be proud to say that we are Pakistani Citizens, it shall happen! It must happen, but for that we need to work together we are the next generation, i say together we can achieve what that even Goras cannot!
Faith, Unity and Discipline!, and nothing will harm us!
Pakistan needs small but fully trained forces armed with latest techonoly to be able to hit hard with speed. And this is the very strategy that is being followed/or starting to be followed by the GHQ.
Pakistan needs few silver bullets, not a whole lot of bullets.
Pakistan should also compete with India in technology and economically. Always think big but not like India which starst really big projects but ends up with bunch of imported technoloy or whole alot of nothing.
In the mean time Pakistan should try its best for fastest growth in GDP and education which can make a lot of difference.
Pakistan needs few silver bullets, not a whole lot of bullets.
Pakistan should also compete with India in technology and economically. Always think big but not like India which starst really big projects but ends up with bunch of imported technoloy or whole alot of nothing.
In the mean time Pakistan should try its best for fastest growth in GDP and education which can make a lot of difference.
QUOTE(platinum786 @ Feb 24 2005, 06:09 PM)
I mean think about it, a nuclear attack if being defeated would even be an act of revenge, revenge is forbidden in war also fora muslim.
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Revenge isn't forbidden. It is discouraged.
I have to agree with USAM.
Pakistan must keep its quantity low, and concentrate on quality. 3 Cheetahs are inferior to 1 Hyena. Education, state-of-the-art equipment, and most of all, the finest training in the military is what Pakistan needs.
Pakistan must keep its quantity low, and concentrate on quality. 3 Cheetahs are inferior to 1 Hyena. Education, state-of-the-art equipment, and most of all, the finest training in the military is what Pakistan needs.
I would say it is better to have our soldiers, pilots and sailors more intelligent and more tougher than the enemy. We could think of providing more flying hours for our pilots. More tough training and technical skills for our soldiers. Also the we should try to keep the morale of the soldiers high. I think a combination of good human resource and best equipment will solve our problem
My first post in think tank :)
first we have to win psychologically. Bring their moral down and you win 75% of war.
The weapons to do exactly that are and could be:
1- effective artillary and lots of it, we can afford to have it.
2- snipers with only purpose to hit one or two and vanish with specifically officers.
3- propoganda
4- Precision bombing
5- carpet bombing
6- Cruise missiles
7- Uav bombs
Ok no matter what, i oppose the use of nuke/DU chemical or bio weapon. There effects very long lasting and using them will be a crime against humanity.
By the way i really dont know what will be more easier/cheaper, destroy the satelite with a missile from earth or sending a satlite to do it. I will go for destroying it with a missile from earth
first we have to win psychologically. Bring their moral down and you win 75% of war.
The weapons to do exactly that are and could be:
1- effective artillary and lots of it, we can afford to have it.
2- snipers with only purpose to hit one or two and vanish with specifically officers.
3- propoganda
4- Precision bombing
5- carpet bombing
6- Cruise missiles
7- Uav bombs
Ok no matter what, i oppose the use of nuke/DU chemical or bio weapon. There effects very long lasting and using them will be a crime against humanity.
By the way i really dont know what will be more easier/cheaper, destroy the satelite with a missile from earth or sending a satlite to do it. I will go for destroying it with a missile from earth
QUOTE(sobank @ Aug 5 2005, 11:29 PM)
My first post in think tank :)
first we have to win psychologically. Bring their moral down and you win 75% of war.
The weapons to do exactly that are and could be:
1- effective artillary and lots of it, we can afford to have it.
2- snipers with only purpose to hit one or two and vanish with specifically officers.
3- propoganda
4- Precision bombing
5- carpet bombing
6- Cruise missiles
7- Uav bombs
Ok no matter what, i oppose the use of nuke/DU chemical or bio weapon. There effects very long lasting and using them will be a crime against humanity.
By the way i really dont know what will be more easier/cheaper, destroy the satelite with a missile from earth or sending a satlite to do it. I will go for destroying it with a missile from earth
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first we have to win psychologically. Bring their moral down and you win 75% of war.
The weapons to do exactly that are and could be:
1- effective artillary and lots of it, we can afford to have it.
2- snipers with only purpose to hit one or two and vanish with specifically officers.
3- propoganda
4- Precision bombing
5- carpet bombing
6- Cruise missiles
7- Uav bombs
Ok no matter what, i oppose the use of nuke/DU chemical or bio weapon. There effects very long lasting and using them will be a crime against humanity.
By the way i really dont know what will be more easier/cheaper, destroy the satelite with a missile from earth or sending a satlite to do it. I will go for destroying it with a missile from earth
[right][snapback]667131[/snapback][/right]
#3 seems a bit unislamic.
A mini-nuke on a missile launched from the earth will take care of all their sats.
What Pakistan needs is quality equipment and the finest soldiers operating the equipment. Even if the equipment is in small numbers (lets say 50 Rafales), we can last longer then our counterpart, as long as the pilots & the ground crew have the finest training in the world. Remember, its not the gun that matters, its the man behind the gun.
#3 seems a bit unislamic.
Why is it unislamic?
Why is it unislamic?
We should also arm our anti-tank infantry with RPG-29's. Some people on sinodefence.com who just served in Iraq reported that this thing is BAD. One of the guys said that the RPG-29 went right through an M113 track. Point is, these are the latest versions of the RPG series and they can most likely penetrate much of India's armored veichles. And the best part is that these things are cheap: only about 800 bucks for an RPG along with a launcher. So I say give these out to out anti-tank infantry and also give them out to our civilian guerillas.
As for artillery, we need to buy some better artillery fire finders. We got some from the US in the 80's, but that thing is so old now. I think the Chinese make some great artillery fire finders and we should get it from them with a ToT. So far the Indians have failed to receive artillery fire finders so they won't be able to suppress our artillery while we would be able to supress their artillery.
What the PA desperately needs is some MRLS systems. We already have the WS-1B, but we should also get the Chinese A-100 system and the Chinese 273 mm system. These can be used to attack massed armored and infantry and inflict massive damage upon the enemy.
Now, during the event of a war, Pakistan's ISI must cause as much unrest as possible inside India. That means give support to the Sikh in Punjab, more support to the Kashmiris in Kashmir, and have our Bengali friends give support to the Assam freedom movements. This will force India to waste vital resources trying to put down rebellions.
As for artillery, we need to buy some better artillery fire finders. We got some from the US in the 80's, but that thing is so old now. I think the Chinese make some great artillery fire finders and we should get it from them with a ToT. So far the Indians have failed to receive artillery fire finders so they won't be able to suppress our artillery while we would be able to supress their artillery.
What the PA desperately needs is some MRLS systems. We already have the WS-1B, but we should also get the Chinese A-100 system and the Chinese 273 mm system. These can be used to attack massed armored and infantry and inflict massive damage upon the enemy.
Now, during the event of a war, Pakistan's ISI must cause as much unrest as possible inside India. That means give support to the Sikh in Punjab, more support to the Kashmiris in Kashmir, and have our Bengali friends give support to the Assam freedom movements. This will force India to waste vital resources trying to put down rebellions.
QUOTE(pakibath @ Aug 6 2005, 07:30 AM)
#3 seems a bit unislamic.
Why is it unislamic?
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Why is it unislamic?
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Is there any way of spreading propoganda without telling lies?
now we have babur and therefore i am changing a little bit of options.
1- effective artillary and lots of it, we can afford to have it.
2- snipers with only purpose to hit one or two and vanish with specifically officers.
3- propoganda
4- Precision bombing
5- carpet bombing
6- Cruise missiles
7- anti ship missile boats and lots of them.
8- we should be able to develope missiles that can pin point satelites and take them out.
9- attack their communications in all the major cities. that will also include the cell phone comm. too.
Propoganda is war of deception and under war i dont think that is called telling lie. you see telling lie will be nehro going on un assemmbly and telling them they will hold the proper election inside kashmir and then going back on his words. thats a lie.
1- effective artillary and lots of it, we can afford to have it.
2- snipers with only purpose to hit one or two and vanish with specifically officers.
3- propoganda
4- Precision bombing
5- carpet bombing
6- Cruise missiles
7- anti ship missile boats and lots of them.
8- we should be able to develope missiles that can pin point satelites and take them out.
9- attack their communications in all the major cities. that will also include the cell phone comm. too.
Propoganda is war of deception and under war i dont think that is called telling lie. you see telling lie will be nehro going on un assemmbly and telling them they will hold the proper election inside kashmir and then going back on his words. thats a lie.
It seems the Pak armed forces are using this theory, high tech, and less....but where we can, high tech and many!
Pak forces have relized that they can't go head to head with india since india has large numbers.They dicided not to go head to head but do little sneak attacks.For exmaple the army would do not in thousands but in tens.Kill one or tow of the enemies and then come back.Doing this will lower the enimies morale and their enthousitc.Iraq used this tatic and it woked out pretty good.Only expect that it's people weren't exectly loyal.But that not the case in pakistan.So after lowering the enemies morales and fursterationg them.Pak would send it's spies to sabtogae some of enemies plans.One comman exmple would be to destory their food and ammo supplies.After day or two or maybe even a week.Pak would send it's army in big numbers to destory soem enemies in small numbers.
So it seems like this
If war with a certian occurs pakistan would first
1.Pak's army would send waves of Baburs and billistic missiles to the enemies air bases and trainig camps, factories that make ammo.And if known, the postion of enemies billistc missiles, so they can't do the same thing with pakistan.While pakistan's navy would be doing the same thing with the enemies navy.I remember reading once that in the war of either 65 or 71.A PN navy went in a indian navla base and destoreyd a carrier of a enemies destoryer.So if PN could do this with the Baburs then victory is assured.
2.Send small numbers of SSGs to "lower the enemies morale and furstist the enemy"
3.Blocking the enemies supplies.
4.Attacking small numbers of enemies locations with big and better armed forces.
5.After destorying the enemies air bases.Even PAF's F-7s would gain air superiorurty on the battle ground.
5.Make civilions be prepered to fight in case the enemy does invade{1.st rule.Be ready for anything]For this to happen pak needs to do what swedan and other countries do.Pak should make it's high school, collage, and uni students join the army for a short while so they know hoe the basic of the army works.Open progams that make other people be ready for war too{Remember allah said that those who are prepered for war are the ones who win it.}.
6.After making the enemies weak pak should send a full out assult of it's air force, army and navy if possibile to destory the enemies every post and loctions.This would result in two things.Either the enemy surrenders or they nuke us{if the enemy does have any nukes}.But nuking will be rare cause by that time usa of un would have interferd.
So this is my plan.Any comments would be nice.
So it seems like this
If war with a certian occurs pakistan would first
1.Pak's army would send waves of Baburs and billistic missiles to the enemies air bases and trainig camps, factories that make ammo.And if known, the postion of enemies billistc missiles, so they can't do the same thing with pakistan.While pakistan's navy would be doing the same thing with the enemies navy.I remember reading once that in the war of either 65 or 71.A PN navy went in a indian navla base and destoreyd a carrier of a enemies destoryer.So if PN could do this with the Baburs then victory is assured.
2.Send small numbers of SSGs to "lower the enemies morale and furstist the enemy"
3.Blocking the enemies supplies.
4.Attacking small numbers of enemies locations with big and better armed forces.
5.After destorying the enemies air bases.Even PAF's F-7s would gain air superiorurty on the battle ground.
5.Make civilions be prepered to fight in case the enemy does invade{1.st rule.Be ready for anything]For this to happen pak needs to do what swedan and other countries do.Pak should make it's high school, collage, and uni students join the army for a short while so they know hoe the basic of the army works.Open progams that make other people be ready for war too{Remember allah said that those who are prepered for war are the ones who win it.}.
6.After making the enemies weak pak should send a full out assult of it's air force, army and navy if possibile to destory the enemies every post and loctions.This would result in two things.Either the enemy surrenders or they nuke us{if the enemy does have any nukes}.But nuking will be rare cause by that time usa of un would have interferd.
So this is my plan.Any comments would be nice.
"Send small numbers of SSGs to "lower the enemies morale and furstist the enemy"
Interesting that you mention this. Just recently read the interview of the ex-Commander SSG Maj Gen Alvi. In the interview he was asked about the prospects of SSG operating behind the enemy lines in a future conflict. He himself was of the opinion that it will be very difficult (markedly difficult than the past as in 1965 and 1971). He said that the border has been militarised so much that it would be hard to get across and operate successfully especially when chances of ex-filtration would be so low.
I am sure efforts would be made but I think this time around the Indians are also aware of the potential of the Pakistani special forces.
Interesting that you mention this. Just recently read the interview of the ex-Commander SSG Maj Gen Alvi. In the interview he was asked about the prospects of SSG operating behind the enemy lines in a future conflict. He himself was of the opinion that it will be very difficult (markedly difficult than the past as in 1965 and 1971). He said that the border has been militarised so much that it would be hard to get across and operate successfully especially when chances of ex-filtration would be so low.
I am sure efforts would be made but I think this time around the Indians are also aware of the potential of the Pakistani special forces.
QUOTE(blain2 @ Sep 16 2005, 01:26 PM)
"Send small numbers of SSGs to "lower the enemies morale and furstist the enemy"
Interesting that you mention this. Just recently read the interview of the ex-Commander SSG Maj Gen Alvi. In the interview he was asked about the prospects of SSG operating behind the enemy lines in a future conflict. He himself was of the opinion that it will be very difficult (markedly difficult than the past as in 1965 and 1971). He said that the border has been militarised so much that it would be hard to get across and operate successfully especially when chances of ex-filtration would be so low.
I am sure efforts would be made but I think this time around the Indians are also aware of the potential of the Pakistani special forces.
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Interesting that you mention this. Just recently read the interview of the ex-Commander SSG Maj Gen Alvi. In the interview he was asked about the prospects of SSG operating behind the enemy lines in a future conflict. He himself was of the opinion that it will be very difficult (markedly difficult than the past as in 1965 and 1971). He said that the border has been militarised so much that it would be hard to get across and operate successfully especially when chances of ex-filtration would be so low.
I am sure efforts would be made but I think this time around the Indians are also aware of the potential of the Pakistani special forces.
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I am 100% sure that there are ISI in india ready to do this kind of stuff.
QUOTE(_Samid_ @ Aug 6 2005, 03:16 AM)
#3 seems a bit unislamic.
A mini-nuke on a missile launched from the earth will take care of all their sats.
What Pakistan needs is quality equipment and the finest soldiers operating the equipment. Even if the equipment is in small numbers (lets say 50 Rafales), we can last longer then our counterpart, as long as the pilots & the ground crew have the finest training in the world. Remember, its not the gun that matters, its the man behind the gun.
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A mini-nuke on a missile launched from the earth will take care of all their sats.
What Pakistan needs is quality equipment and the finest soldiers operating the equipment. Even if the equipment is in small numbers (lets say 50 Rafales), we can last longer then our counterpart, as long as the pilots & the ground crew have the finest training in the world. Remember, its not the gun that matters, its the man behind the gun.
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no it wont, remember there can be no pressure wave from the blast, only particles which are fired away. These will be very dangerous to other objects in Space since they will just become space debris with high impulse, and it would isolate Pakistan in the International community.
50 rafales is small number... Sure. It is not the rafale but the strategic depth.
QUOTE(platinum786 @ Feb 22 2005, 03:04 PM)
[1] Micro satellites- suicide bomber Satellites you could call them, send satellites into space, their sole purpose to locate India satellites and explode next to them to wipe them out at a time of war. This would make India quire blind really, and help us immensely. Whilst on the subject of satellites, I think it is high time we launched a lot more spy satellites to help us know their movements. A simple action like that could give us a huge edge in a war time Scenario.
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as far as i know, pakistan has and operates microsatellites. you can read about this stuff on the internet. you would have to find some reliable sources, but they are there.
QUOTE(blain2 @ Sep 16 2005, 01:26 PM)
"Send small numbers of SSGs to "lower the enemies morale and furstist the enemy"
Interesting that you mention this. Just recently read the interview of the ex-Commander SSG Maj Gen Alvi. In the interview he was asked about the prospects of SSG operating behind the enemy lines in a future conflict. He himself was of the opinion that it will be very difficult (markedly difficult than the past as in 1965 and 1971).
[right][snapback]683134[/snapback][/right]
Interesting that you mention this. Just recently read the interview of the ex-Commander SSG Maj Gen Alvi. In the interview he was asked about the prospects of SSG operating behind the enemy lines in a future conflict. He himself was of the opinion that it will be very difficult (markedly difficult than the past as in 1965 and 1971).
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what is the story of major alvi? there was rumors that he had lashed out at the americans or something and was consequently fired by musharraf. any truth to this?
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