sinopak
Oct 3 2003, 04:53 PM
1965: Operation Grand Slam
Shaukat Qadir
Operation Grand Slam was one of a number of contingency plans that had been prepared in support of Gibraltar. Since Gibraltar’s failure was considered inconceivable, this plan was intended to sever the road-link between India and Indian-held Kashmir once the Valley was up in flames. But eventually this plan was put into action to relieve pressure on troops defending Kashmir once Gibraltar had failed and led to the loss of some key posts in Kashmir.
Many writers have attributed the plan to Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. This is inaccurate. It was a prepared contingency plan and one that appealed to Mr Bhutto. Since he was among the favoured ministers of the time he might have influenced the contingency plan selected but even if he did it was the most viable and sensible military option.
I would like to add here that recently Benazir Bhutto has been castigated by some and defended by others for revealing details of the presentation of a military plan to an Indian publication. Whether or not she should have done so is another matter but in defence of General Pervez Musharraf it must be stated that what he presented was a contingency plan. To distort the incident and present Musharraf as a warmonger is unfair. The assessment also fails to understand the contingency.
Operation Grand Slam was four phased: the capture of Chamb, the crossing of river Tawi and consolidation, followed by the capture of Akhnur, and finally severing the Indian lines of communication and capturing Rajauri. Despite the difficult terrain, including a river that had to be crossed, the possibility for success lay in the bold audacity of the plan. It necessitated speedy execution, since a delay would have meant that the Indians would reinforce Akhnur, and make it invulnerable to capture.
In last week’s article, I did say a few words about Maj Gen Akhtar Malik, but they were insufficient. He was a bold and audacious commander who remained unruffled under pressure and inspired confidence in his men, not just the officers but even the soldiers, making them rise above themselves. He was the epitome of the commander for such a venture.
When the operation was initially planned, GHQ was aware that Gen Malik was commanding an over-extended division, under immense pressure from the enemy. But he was still chosen to command this offensive. In fact, at most times he was commanding forces greater than 1 Corps, our only corps at that time.
This is why it is surprising that he should have been removed from the command of 12 Div. The fact that his division was over-extended was a known fact. No record is available about the causes and one can only speculate. In my view, while Gen Malik was most suited for undertaking such an operation, there was some sense that he could do little to influence events in Kashmir. Since Grand Slam was initially linked to the success and later to the failure of Gibraltar, unity of command may have been a consideration for the achievement of the aim, because of which he was selected to command this operation.
One has also to bear in mind that at this time the Pakistan army had only two lieutenant generals: only one, Bakhtiar Rana, was commanding a corps while the second, Altaf Qadir, was on deputation to CENTO. In addition, the army had only a handful of major generals.
The operation was to commence at 05:00 am on September 1. Initially it went as planned. Chamb fell within the hour and soon after first light around 07:00 am our troops started crossing the river Tawi. Operations from here onwards continued speedily and by 01:00 pm troops had consolidated and were ready to move into concentration areas from where an attack on Akhnur could have commenced well before last light around 03:00 pm. However we were not destined to reach Akhnur which remained, in the words of Dr Ahmed Faruqui, ‘a town too far’.
Akhtar Malik was a man of action and that’s where he was, in the thick of battle. Unfortunately, because he was commanding another formation, he did not have the facility of staff officers. Consequently, he found little time to communicate with GHQ, which had no idea of the battle situation. Gen Musa flew in to Kharian on a helicopter around 11:30 am on September 2 to find out firsthand what was happening. When he could not discover much there, he flew towards the border, spotting some vehicles en route.
Prior to the commencement of Grand Slam, another offensive division commanded by Maj-Gen Yahya had been asked to concentrate at Gujrat to meet any unforeseen contingency. The vehicles that Gen Musa spotted were those of Yahya and his staff out on a reconnaissance mission. From here Musa established contact with Akhtar Malik who was ordered to report to the C-in-C Musa. Akhtar Malik found the C-in-C by about 01:00 pm.
Though the official reason for the change of command of Operation Grand Slam at this stage was that Akhtar Malik could not handle troops from Northern Areas to Kharian, this is hardly very credible. It was known when he was assigned the task that he would be handling troops over this stretch. It has also been alleged that Ayub changed the command so that Yahya could claim credit and be appointed the next chief but records indicate that this decision was taken by Musa and subsequently ratified through a signal by GHQ.
Consequently, once again I am forced to speculate; perhaps Musa was annoyed at not having been informed and been made to wait a few hours. Once contact had been established, he could well have received an update on the wireless, rather than waste precious time by ordering the successful commander to return. Whatever the reason for changing horses midstream, precious time was lost while Akhtar Malik returned, briefed Yahya, who then assumed command, understood the situation on ground and then issued orders. In the meantime, Akhnur was reinforced and became unattainable.
In fairness to Yahya, who has often been accused of having failed, probably anyone else in his place would have taken just as long and suffered the same fate. Perhaps the troops were also disheartened by the change of command. Perhaps even the flamboyant Akhtar Malik would not have been able to take Akhnur.
Perhaps if Akhnur had been captured and the Indian lines of communication severed, the Indian attack on Sialkot could never have occurred! Perhaps. But that we will never know. What we do know is that Akhnur was never captured and this led to the attack on Lahore and later Sialkot in the wee hours of September 6 1965. If nothing else, Grand Slam did release the pressure on the troops defending the LoC in Kashmir and Northern Areas.
The author is a retired brigadier. He is also the ex-founder Vice President of the Islamabad Policy Research Institute (IPRI)
visioninthedark
Oct 6 2003, 02:03 PM
Interesting and informative article!
Link??
:lol:
"on troops defending Kashmir "
We werent "defending" Kashmir. We were Attacking Kashmir.
This is the same kind of propoganda language used by the Americans
in Vietnam. Never once did any newspaper in the U.S. print the words,
America "attacked" Vietnam. It was always "America is defending Vietnam"...
Really? well, who was America "defending" Vietnam from? Oh right.. The Vietnamese.... :lol:
The same crap is going on here. Pakistan didnt "defend" Kashmir, we attacked
Kashmir. And the Kashmiri people did not appreciate that too much, contrary
to what popular opinion might tell you.
We need to start realizing these issues.
pakistanzindabaad
Oct 6 2003, 09:41 PM
ya tnp they just love the indian occupation so much they just simply decided to fight for over half a century
to say nothing of the 80k civilian deaths
btw, how many extra judicial killings or razing of entire villages have happened in azad kashmir?
QUOTE (pakistanzindabaad @ Oct 6 2003, 09:41 PM)
ya tnp they just love the indian occupation so much they just simply decided to fight for over half a century
to say nothing of the 80k civilian deaths
btw, how many extra judicial killings or razing of entire villages have happened in azad kashmir?
PZ, what exactly is your point?
What the hell did I say about Kashmiris NOT being oppressed?
Am I saying that Kashmiris like India?
Did I once say that? So what the hell is your point?
I am getting pretty tired of your useless attempts at trying
to contradict me when I am not even saying anything against
Kashmiris!Guess what, Kashmiries never asked for Pakistani help.
And Pakistan has only hurt the indegenious Kashmiri struggle
for INDEPENDANCE. You dont believe me? Go to Held Kashmir
and ask around. And do you deny that we ATTACKED Kashmir
in '47 and '65? Are you denying the attrocities commited by the tribals
in '47? Do you deny that the Kashmiris were so pissed off at Pakistan
after '47 that they lost all entusiasm for joining Pakistan? Do you deny
that the Kashmiries have always claimed that they are an independant
people with their own culture, and are historically seperate from both
India and Pakistan?
If you dont deny any of the above, then why are you even here on
this thread trying to argue?
pakistanzindabaad
Oct 7 2003, 01:19 PM
actually, i disagree with pretty much all your statements
and actually i do know a lot of kashmiris, and a lot about kashmir
i dont have a problem with kashmir becoming an independent state, btw
all the luck to them in their endeaver for freedom no matter where it takes them
i do have a problem when bodies regularly float downstream from the indian occupied kashmir with horrendous torture marks on them
ever seen a body in such a condition TNP??
"Are you denying the attrocities commited by the tribals in '47?"
what atrocities, meri jan?? it a case of the indians trying to blacken the tribals who helped the kashmiris out of indian bondage (do i need to remind you of the atrocities the indians have comitted over the years, and are now piously detailing "tribal atrocities")
the tribal atrocities (if they exist, number in the tens, while the indian ones number in the hundreds of thousands)
azad(free) kashmir exists, because those people bled and died for their cousins in kashmir....
i seriously suggest you take a round of the sites online which show the pictoral evidence of the indian brutality in kashmir
if you're ok with women with their breasts cut off and children with their heads shot off, i can personally assure you that their family members are not
as they're the ones who're fighting the war of independence in india and paying for it with the lives of their families, what you say doesnt count for crap
thank God for that
Regulus
Oct 7 2003, 02:19 PM
According to estimates 80% of those fighting in Kashmir come from Pakistan. Only 20% militants are Kashmiris.
platinum786
Oct 7 2003, 02:39 PM
:)Clp :)Clp :)Clp :)Clp :)Clp :)Clp :)Clp
:)Clp Pakistanzindabaad :)Clp
:)Clp :)Clp :)Clp :)Clp :)Clp :)Clp :)Clp
blackjar
Oct 7 2003, 03:01 PM
Watch your language or i will shut ur big mouth by banning u
JaanBaaz
Oct 7 2003, 03:17 PM
With all due respect to PZ, all the neutral books that I have read on Kashmir have mentioned that the Tribal lashkars that went from Pakistan to liberate Kashmir from the Hindu king actually ended up raping and looting the areas.
Our textboks need some revision.
I see you wanna play hardball once again.
Fine by me.
QUOTE
actually, i disagree with pretty much all your statements
and actually i do know a lot of kashmiris, and a lot about kashmir
i dont have a problem with kashmir becoming an independent state, btw
all the luck to them in their endeaver for freedom no matter where it takes them
Then what the hell are you disagreeing with me about?
Like I said, did you ever actually have a point or a counter-argument?
QUOTE
i do have a problem when bodies regularly float downstream from the indian occupied kashmir with horrendous torture marks on them
ever seen a body in such a condition TNP??
Is this suppose to surprise me? Is this news to me?
Your telling this to me like I am not aware of this.
Again.... what exactly is your point?
How does this concern Pakistan?
QUOTE
what atrocities, meri jan?? it a case of the indians trying to blacken the tribals who helped the kashmiris out of indian bondage (do i need to remind you of the atrocities the indians have comitted over the years, and are now piously detailing "tribal atrocities")
the tribal atrocities (if they exist, number in the tens, while the indian ones number in the hundreds of thousands)
Typical brainwashed answer.
Go and read the book "A journey to Dis-illusionment" by
Sherbaz Khan Mazari. Maybe he will offer you some sense
of the real events of '47.
And by the way, DO NOT EVEN TRY to say there werent any
attrocities by the tribals in '47. I dont even want to argue with
such an ignorant position. Its like trying to convince someone
the sky is blue.
Why dont you go and ask the elders in your familly who were
alive in '47? They will tell you the extent of the Tribal rapes and plunders
of Kashmir.
Do you know the Pakistan army after a week actually stopped the inflow
of fighters into Kashmir because the news of their attrocities was so horrible?
QUOTE
i seriously suggest you take a round of the sites online which show the pictoral evidence of the indian brutality in kashmir
if you're ok with women with their breasts cut off and children with their heads shot off, i can personally assure you that their family members are not
as they're the ones who're fighting the war of independence in india and paying for it with the lives of their families, what you say doesnt count for crap
thank God for that
Who exactly are you trying to impress?
Cause you are certainly disappointing me.
You think what you are saying above is something new to me?
You think I dont know what the Indians have done to Kashmiries?
Just name one instance where the Kashmiries asked for Pakistan's help.
Go ahead, try it. You wont find one, not even in 1989 after the riots,
and when Pakistan exploited the situation.
QUOTE (blackjar @ Oct 7 2003, 03:01 PM)
About Indian atrocities:
1. India commited no deliberate atrocities which could lead to a separatist movement.
the biggest criminals in J&K are the so called freedom fighters.
What the hell is wrong with you?
I have to deal with two sides of the opposite spectrum!
One Pakistani who ignores reality, and another Indian who does the same!
These two above statements have to be one of the dumbest on the forum.
Hell most Indians here would even deny these!
mamo0003
Oct 7 2003, 06:42 PM
The Kashmiris cannot have it both ways, a non union with India or Pakistan, while relying on both countries for access to everything. Besides, for Pakistan Kashmir is a source of strategic survival as most of its water sources flow from there, for India it is just the paradise valley, but a good way to threaten Pakistan.
For the Indian yahoo who asserts that the IA killings are regretable, how can you accidentaly kill 70,000+ people ahole. It is doing the same in Punjab, in Bihar, in West Bengal and ten other states. If that is begnine government of the people by the people then you are one confused SOB. Don't toot your Indian crap here, we all know that India is at war with its own population, right across the length and breadth of India. Go sell your bull to the gulible westerners, we are are too fully aware of the state of human rights in India.
Regulus
Oct 7 2003, 07:12 PM
mamo0003,
If you have any intellectual honesty them you can't blame India for all the 70,000 (?) deaths.
Fair number of dead are Indian security forces and Indian civilians who were killed by militants. How can you blame India for these deaths? Militants alone are responsible for these deaths.
Some civilians have died in crossfire, but who initiates these firing? Answer is militants.
Can you also blame India for killing militants? You shoot at the security forces, you get shot back at, that is the universal rule.
Now take out the militancy, daily death toll will drop down to 0.
Can you see now who is responsible?
India is NOT. Death toll between 1947 to 1989 was 0.
Suleman
Oct 7 2003, 07:48 PM
Regulus
friend atleast accept ur fault too and see things nutrally then decide.armed freedom struggle in kashmir started in 1989 before that there was no armed struggle many thousand people were already dead by that time who killed them?
it right to fire at the people who fire at u but why to fire on peceful demonstrations and children?
JaanBaaz
Oct 7 2003, 09:47 PM
Regulus,
I guess young boys from ordinary families just decided to go and disappear
I guess the women wanted to rape themselves
I guess people just decided to bury themselves alive in all those fresh graves
I guess all Human rights orgs just decided not to visit IOK
No point arguing with you types
pakistanzindabaad
Oct 8 2003, 12:03 AM
TNP, i'm actually very very well acquainted with the mazaris (friends of the family)
lets just say, i know stuff behind the book
"Just name one instance where the Kashmiries asked for Pakistan's help."
who do you count as kashmiri, btw?
abdullah? his family is counted as traitors among kashmiris
ask the refugees from indian aggression in azad kashmir? the thousands of kashmiris abroad or the family of the 80k who were killed
if that was the case, and the kashmiris were so anti pakistani as u claim, why doesnt india hold a plebicite regarding the future of kashmir?
let the truth come out, saaraa kuch saamnay aa jaye gaa
the pakistani army never took part in the conflict during 47, reason was not the pakistani tribal "atrocities", as u put it, but refusal of the british general to obey the quaid
blackjar
Oct 8 2003, 03:47 AM
PZ,
Shk Abdullah's clan may not be on top of the Kashmiri world, but in his days - he ruled.
Why doesnt India hold a plebiscite?
Well among those N no. of UN resolutions there is one that says
1. Pakistan shall withdraw all its troops from the state of J&K
2. Then India gets to station troops across the state to conduct the necessary electoral process.
I don't hear no talk of Pakistani troops getting back to their regulation barracks in their mother country. Next Pakistan has also annexed the Northern Areas as well ceded disputed territory to China. Well there goes protection for the Kashmiri lands down the drain. If the plebiscite was so sacred, then ensuring that all J&K territories held by Pakistan remained intact as of the day the ceasefire treaty was signed in 1948.
Accession is a one way street. Consider the US constitution. Any state may join but it cannot secede. The last time a state tried to secede - they had a Civil War, & they still talk about it. Similar clauses exist in the Indian constitution - U can join but u can never leave. ( Something like Hotel California).
Coming to the casualty figures, i'd say they're severely bloated up to prop up the Pakistani view. No one condones the extra-legal actions of security personnel, but they are a reality that any land in which a separatist movement is on has to accept. This has occurred on numerous occassions in Pakistan, UK (SAS actions in N Ireland), Spain (Basque), Algeria, Saudi, Sri Lanka, China, Russia, US, etc. & the figures look too bloated. Well if you think these figures are right and those deaths were the army's responsibilty - just go find a Pakistani infantry platoon and ask them to go bump of say 100 rebel elements in NWFP. Well the look of revulsion you will get is what any soldier anywhere in the world thinks of such orders or such behavior.
Regulus
Oct 8 2003, 09:08 AM
QUOTE (pakistanzindabaad @ Oct 8 2003, 12:03 AM)
ask the refugees from indian aggression in azad kashmir? the thousands of kashmiris abroad or the family of the 80k who were killed
A substantial number of those killed are in fact civilians killed by militants. I don't their family would support the cause of militants. Kashmiri pundits, who are now refugees in their own state, don't support the militant cause either. Nor do people of Jammu or Laddakh.
QUOTE
if that was the case, and the kashmiris were so anti pakistani as u claim, why doesnt india hold a plebicite regarding the future of kashmir?
Because of the atrocities committed by the invaders, Kashmir public opinion had strongly turned against Pakistan, that is the reason Pakistan never complied with the very first clause of UN resoution thus stalling the plebicite. Pakistan would have lost plebicite in 1948.
Remeber it was India who took the issue to UN and agreed for plebicite. It was not a Pakistan initiative.
After the 1953 ratification of the accession by the newly elected Jammu & Kashmir assembly, all questions of plebicite became moot.
QUOTE
the pakistani army never took part in the conflict during 47, reason was not the pakistani tribal "atrocities", as u put it, but refusal of the british general to obey the quaid
Pakistani army provided logistic support to the tribal invaders intially, but once India army landed in Kashmir and started pushing tribals invaders back, at a later point Pakistan army joined the war. When ceasfire took place in 1948 after the UN resolutions, it was Indian army fighting the Pakistan army.
Regulus
Oct 8 2003, 09:14 AM
QUOTE (Suleman @ Oct 7 2003, 07:48 PM)
Regulus
friend atleast accept ur fault too and see things nutrally then decide.armed freedom struggle in kashmir started in 1989 before that there was no armed struggle many thousand people were already dead by that time who killed them?
it right to fire at the people who fire at u but why to fire on peceful demonstrations and children?
Suleman,
You are wrong about 1000's of death before the insurgency. From 1947 to 1989 there was not even a single death. Deaths are linked to insurgency.
I do condemn Farooq Abdullah, the chief minister of Jammu & Kashmir for ordering to open fire on protesters. They should have found alternative means of crowed control than opening fire against a protesting mob.
Goose
Oct 8 2003, 09:33 AM
F. Abdullahs a ###### CHOR plain and simple. We send our tax rupees for the betterment of the state, he uses the money to build a golf course. We hold elections to satisfy the people there that they are free to rule themselves within the framework of the Indian constitution, he tanks the elections, gets himself elected, humiliates our good name with the international community and alienates the Kashmiris. The fat bugger doesnt even live in Kashmir, he lives in the UK and visits Kashmir. Prudence permits me from saying what should be done about him and his selfish family.
QUOTE (pakistanzindabaad @ Oct 8 2003, 12:03 AM)
TNP, i'm actually very very well acquainted with the mazaris (friends of the family)
lets just say, i know stuff behind the book
"Just name one instance where the Kashmiries asked for Pakistan's help."
who do you count as kashmiri, btw?
abdullah? his family is counted as traitors among kashmiris
ask the refugees from indian aggression in azad kashmir? the thousands of kashmiris abroad or the family of the 80k who were killed
if that was the case, and the kashmiris were so anti pakistani as u claim, why doesnt india hold a plebicite regarding the future of kashmir?
let the truth come out, saaraa kuch saamnay aa jaye gaa
the pakistani army never took part in the conflict during 47, reason was not the pakistani tribal "atrocities", as u put it, but refusal of the british general to obey the quaid
Dont just say you know something behind the book.
Thats simply not fair. Go ahead and share it with us then.
You cant just hint that you know something and then tell
me to trust you on it and not inquire as to what exactly
is it that you know.
Now there is no question that the Kashmiries Azad Kash.
have it a lot better then those under indian occupation.
No one is denying that. Did I every deny that?
p.s. The reason why India isn't holding a plebecite is NOT
because they would choose to become part of Pakistan as
you claim. The reason is because they would choose independance.
Hataf
Oct 8 2003, 10:45 AM
Akhtar Malik was a man of action and that’s where he was, in the thick of battle. Unfortunately, because he was commanding another formation, he did not have the facility of staff officers. Consequently, he found little time to communicate with GHQ, which had no idea of the battle situation. Gen Musa flew in to Kharian on a helicopter around 11:30 am on September 2 to find out firsthand what was happening. When he could not discover much there, he flew towards the border, spotting some vehicles en route
One question Who was Akhtar Malik what was his rank ?
JaanBaaz
Oct 8 2003, 11:41 AM
Maj.Gen. Akhtar Hussain Malik was the GoCinC of XII Division of Pak Army in 1965.
mamo0003
Oct 8 2003, 01:05 PM
QUOTE
A substantial number of those killed are in fact civilians killed by militants. I don't their family would support the cause of militants. Kashmiri pundits, who are now refugees in their own state, don't support the militant cause either. Nor do people of Jammu or Laddakh
...Regulus,
If this was the case who is killing all the thousands of civilians all accros India in so called fake encounters. Even during nympho Clinton's visit to India, the Indian army massacred a Sikh village in IOK and blamed the militants, but later had to admit that they had done it. The same thing with the
Pundits, they were encouraged by the Indian government to flee from Kashmir, so the decks could be cleared for a massive military intervention to counter civil unrest. This is what led to the picking up of arms by Kashmiri militants and not ant Pakistani provokation or intervention. India was receiving advice and training from the crazy facist Israelis and decided to use the same tactics that they were using against the Palestinians. Now it has got its ass in a wringer just like Israel.
You still haven't answered who is arming and killing the insurgencies raging in fouteen states aside from Kashmir. My cousin and I had to fight off some goofs called the War Group, who have taken up arms against the government in Andhra Pardesh and Tamil Nadu, on our way to Warangal from Hyderabad. It was a good thing we had four rifles and some home made smoke bombs, otherwise we would have been killed. The local police and the Indian army are at war with this group all the way up to the northern states. Why?
cmmguy
Oct 8 2003, 03:03 PM
Mamo,
that shows your lack of knowledge on India. Naxals are group of people that fight against the feudal land owners, they kill them then distribute the land to poor.So the govt is fighting back against them.
Naxals were killed by village people in Tamil Nadu, when they tried to rob a bank. And thats the end of Naxal Pary in Tamilnadu. They still have in Andhra.
Apart from it, we had Problems in Assam and Nagaland. The central govt already agreed on truce with BLFT (in Nagaland).
Where did you got that number 14?? from pakistani dork media? heh?
Pakistan has its own share. Most of our regions are peaceful than Quetta or NWFP.
Suleman
Oct 8 2003, 05:32 PM
cmm are u in ur senses do u want to compare quetta and NWFP with Kasmir or nagaland or asam?
cmmguy
Oct 8 2003, 05:53 PM
If you read my post properly u'd get to know that!! :x if you cant get it, just dont post crap!! I said Naxals are pretty much like the tribals!! so read it again!!
mamo0003
Oct 8 2003, 06:25 PM
[/QUOTE]Mamo,
that shows your lack of knowledge on India. Naxals are group of people that fight against the feudal land owners, they kill them then distribute the land to poor.So the govt is fighting back against them.
Naxals were killed by village people in Tamil Nadu, when they tried to rob a bank. And thats the end of Naxal Pary in Tamilnadu. They still have in Andhra.
Apart from it, we had Problems in Assam and Nagaland. The central govt already agreed on truce with BLFT (in Nagaland).
Where did you got that number 14?? from pakistani dork media? heh?
[QUOTE]
cmmguy,
I got the fourteen from a commentary written by Kushwant Sing, a historian of great note in India, who was writing in the Times of India, of how the BJP led government was leading India to a war with its own citizens. He mentioned the fourteen states.- I believe he contributes to a lot of influential papers in India and considered a great social commentator on south asian affairs.
cmmguy
Oct 8 2003, 06:34 PM
heh...may be you gotta see how he classified them. I'm pretty sure that he didnt classify them as so called "Freedom Struggle".
ZookMan
Oct 9 2003, 07:41 AM
QUOTE (mamo0003 @ Oct 8 2003, 06:25 PM)
cmmguy,
I got the fourteen from a commentary written by Kushwant Sing, a historian of great note in India, who was writing in the Times of India, of how the BJP led government was leading India to a war with its own citizens. He mentioned the fourteen states.- I believe he contributes to a lot of influential papers in India and considered a great social commentator on south asian affairs.
mamo,
The character you mention has been one of the most intriguing characters I have seen in India. He is a writer and while he writes about history and such like, he isn't a historian as in a scholarly historian. He is as much a historian as Nehru was. He is also known to be an anti-establishment person. So, while there are bit of genius in what he writes and says, don't take his words as gospel truth - or Koranic words if you will.
Naxals are exactly what has been metioned here. I haven't travelled much in India but I can tell you for sure that no 14 Indian states have problems. On the old forum here, there was a list of "freedom struggles" going on in India and I can tell you that most of them were real pieces of fantasy.
Take it easygreasy
realist
Oct 9 2003, 07:54 AM
Pakistanis can say what they want but the fact remains clear and simple:
Kashmiris at large do not want insurgancy.
Indian Goverment do not vant insurgancy.
Pakistan is funding the insurgancy with money and people (over half the militants are of Pakistani origin) to take revenge for the Bangladesh. Kashmiris are having to pay for the revenge.
Pakistan is about to be destroyed because of the Jehadi training.
QUOTE
Pakistan is about to be destroyed because of the Jehadi training.
:(Blah
You know, you Indians have been predicting the end
of Pakistan since our birth. And everytime you predict
it as just around the corner....
Hmm.... must really tick you off to see us standing still.
:pkflg)
WINGZ
Oct 9 2003, 09:07 AM
Firstly, To TNP and other bros. (DONT FORGET THIS)
Many of you seem to have forgotten the creation of such a conflict, yes we must not forget this was an anglo created problem, i.e. a third party created it, and to conclude a third party must mediate to diffuse and come to a conclusion about kashmir.
Kahsmir shud have been part of pakistan and i mean 99 percent of kashmir shud have existed as pakistan as the borders were made due to the majority of muslims in certain areas. Hence Benglies were muslims and hence east pakistan,
Kashmir shud have been north pakistan....or on those lines....However Viceroy Batton and neru had other ideas about this muslim held region.
But now the percentage of muslims has decreased due to mainly the hindues
that settled after india captured kashmir......WHICH MEANS THE FIGURES HAVE CHANGED!!!...IT IS NO LONGER 99 percent muslim.....
India has allways been akward about land and border, which also brought about the dispute with china...i.e. the war with china, sadly the indians retracted to defeat due to china being vastly superior then india.
To the realist (who clearly shows no realism).
QUOTE
Pakistanis can say what they want but the fact remains clear and simple:
Kashmiris at large do not want insurgancy.
Indian Goverment do not vant insurgancy.
Pakistan is funding the insurgancy with money and people (over half the militants are of Pakistani origin) to take revenge for the Bangladesh. Kashmiris are having to pay for the revenge.
Pakistan is about to be destroyed because of the Jehadi training
I am afraid bro, u have completly lost the plot.
Pakistan has got stronger and stronger everytime india starts to war monger, u dont need me to tell u that pakistan has enuff missle caperbility to cover whole of india...at one time they hardly had a single missile to hit at india. U dont need me to tel u that pakistan has the strongest eva economy in its history....i cant see pakistan getting any weaker.....this is realism!!!
And u dont need me to tell u that pakistan has gud allies that are willing to strengthen pakistans military....I.E. China ....and the recent showing of pakistani air force mite in the "indeginously/ish" FC1-Thunder plane, which is multirole day/nite nuclear caperble fighter.
I cud go on....AL-KHALID tank....india yet to prove tank technology....and bla bla bla......the fact is...india is well pissed that even now, pakistan has the US on board
cmmguy
Oct 9 2003, 12:21 PM
whoa!! what an insight!! India changed Kashmir's demography!! mate, we'r not talking about Mirpur !! :(Blah Even saner Pakistanis will not believe in your lies! :x
Suleman
Oct 9 2003, 04:14 PM
cmm leave this childish behaviour u always start crying and destroying threads what ever the discussion is going and then start ur #### everywhere.stop it.
cmmguy
Oct 9 2003, 05:14 PM
QUOTE (Suleman @ Oct 9 2003, 04:14 PM)
cmm leave this childish behaviour u always start crying and destroying threads what ever the discussion is going and then start ur #### everywhere.stop it.
yeah may be bcoz your BS got busted every now and then or may be you dont have anything else to argue with except whining in every thread?? :(Blah
Suleman
Oct 9 2003, 05:55 PM
keep on BS cmm i wont start BS and baseless arguments with u as thats what u want to change topics.so keep on doing this.
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