278 replies to this topic

[caliph]

UGUR, on 28 June 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

the alewis in turkey overrated, their population overrated , i dont think their population more than 7-8 percent of total population ,morever turkish community mixed, alewi - sunni marriages common here ..

about 15 years ago or so the turkish military done a intensive research on the alevi population in turkey and found it to be no more than 10% of the population of 60million back then, even though the army was heavily influenced by alevis. So I agree the alevis population is highly over-rated.

[platinum786]

The only solution to this Syrian issue is a joint Muslim military operation against Syria. We can take out Assad and put in place peacekeepers. We could even get poliitcal backing for it off the table by making the price for continued assistance that the FSA and other rebel groups once in charge, maintain ties with Russia and China. This deal can be sweetened by having Russia and China offer them help with re-construction and military redevelopment post war.

We have an opertunity to take the WASP out of the loop altogether, a real win-win. We need to act upon it. Pakistan, Turkey, KSA, Qatar have enough resources to take Assads forces out and the OIC should be willing to fund peacekeepers and noramlisation. Pakistan can provide cruise missiles, take out Syrian radars and SAM sites, Turkey, Qatar, KSA have the rest.

We can really strike a blow against the designs of the West and the Iranians at the same time. We are fools for sleeping on this. The whole world is manipulating situations, why are we the only ones spectating. Any other solution with only bring chaos for the people of Syria and the region.

[caliph]

platinum786, on 28 June 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

The only solution to this Syrian issue is a joint Muslim military operation against Syria. We can take out Assad and put in place peacekeepers. We could even get poliitcal backing for it off the table by making the price for continued assistance that the FSA and other rebel groups once in charge, maintain ties with Russia and China. This deal can be sweetened by having Russia and China offer them help with re-construction and military redevelopment post war.

We have an opertunity to take the WASP out of the loop altogether, a real win-win. We need to act upon it. Pakistan, Turkey, KSA, Qatar have enough resources to take Assads forces out and the OIC should be willing to fund peacekeepers and noramlisation. Pakistan can provide cruise missiles, take out Syrian radars and SAM sites, Turkey, Qatar, KSA have the rest.

We can really strike a blow against the designs of the West and the Iranians at the same time. We are fools for sleeping on this. The whole world is manipulating situations, why are we the only ones spectating. Any other solution with only bring chaos for the people of Syria and the region.

++++++1

[caliph]

I wish theres a joint pact between Pakistan, turkey and new Egypt inshallah. If iran gives up its sectarian dreams then it will also be a huge asset but unfortunately the west will use it against any unity in the future. All this threats against iran by the west is all bull$$ and what really happened in the 10 years is contrary to what the west shows. They have only bolstered irans' standing and influence in the neighboring countries and Im glad the uprising in syria have unveiled the true colors of the iranian regime to the rest of the muslim who were fooled by it

[platinum786]

caliph, on 28 June 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

I wish theres a joint pact between Pakistan, turkey and new Egypt inshallah. If iran gives up its sectarian dreams then it will also be a huge asset but unfortunately the west will use it against any unity in the future. All this threats against iran by the west is all bull$$ and what really happened in the 10 years is contrary to what the west shows. They have only bolstered irans' standing and influence in the neighboring countries and Im glad the uprising in syria have unveiled the true colors of the iranian regime to the rest of the muslim who were fooled by it

Right now Eygpt probably isn't well suited to provide support in this conflict, but KSA, Turkey, Qatar and Pakistan can. The unfortunate problem is, all 4 nations have leaders who will put America's interests before their own.

[crazyinsane105]

platinum786, on 28 June 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

The only solution to this Syrian issue is a joint Muslim military operation against Syria. We can take out Assad and put in place peacekeepers. We could even get poliitcal backing for it off the table by making the price for continued assistance that the FSA and other rebel groups once in charge, maintain ties with Russia and China. This deal can be sweetened by having Russia and China offer them help with re-construction and military redevelopment post war.

We have an opertunity to take the WASP out of the loop altogether, a real win-win. We need to act upon it. Pakistan, Turkey, KSA, Qatar have enough resources to take Assads forces out and the OIC should be willing to fund peacekeepers and noramlisation. Pakistan can provide cruise missiles, take out Syrian radars and SAM sites, Turkey, Qatar, KSA have the rest.

We can really strike a blow against the designs of the West and the Iranians at the same time. We are fools for sleeping on this. The whole world is manipulating situations, why are we the only ones spectating. Any other solution with only bring chaos for the people of Syria and the region.

The Saudis proposed something similar to this for Iraq back in 2005 I believe. It was shot down by the US.

Right now even the US will have problems taking on the Syrian air defense system. They have not gone against such a foe since Kosovo in 1999, and that operation did not turn out splendid. Even the recent operation in Libya required tremendous US support (and this was after US combat operations ended). If NATO could not even conduct a simple operation like Libya without the support of the US, how in the world will a bunch of Muslim countries teamed together (all of whom operate on different weapon systems, tactics, language, etc.) and have third rate military forces take on Syria? It will be a complete logistical nightmare to even try this, let alone attempt it.

This is wishful thinking and simply will never happen. Regardless of how powerful or weak the Syrian army currently is, Muslim countries have very little say in what the future of Syrians will be. The true power will lie in the hands of the Syrian people themselves and Russia (and NATO, assuming they will get involved, but for the next year or so, I doubt that will happen).

[kooldawghd2]

Agree with you crazyinsane, the muslim countries spend more time posturing against each other rather than working together and holding numerous joint exercises to allow for more combined operations in the future.

[crazyinsane105]

kooldawghd2, on 30 June 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

Agree with you crazyinsane, the muslim countries spend more time posturing against each other rather than working together and holding numerous joint exercises to allow for more combined operations in the future.

Most Muslim countries that do spend money on their military only do so for quelling internal threats. Ironically Syria was one of the few countries that actually directed its military towards external threats and now its dealing with a rebellion. Fact is, the US is the only country on this planet that has the capability to successfully launch and execute missions well beyond its border. The British, French, and Russians don't even come close to current US capabilities. And even if we were to team up the military forces of every single Muslim country, they still would not be able to conduct an operation as complex as taking out Assad's military due to logistical issues, equipment incompatibilities, different training doctrines, etc.

[Magnus]

U.S. Intelligence, Contradicting Ankara, Indicates Aircraft Was Shot Down by Syria in Its Own Airspace, Officials Say

By JULIAN E. BARNES, ADAM ENTOUS and JOE PARKINSON

U.S. intelligence indicates that a Turkish warplane shot down by Syrian forces was most likely hit by shore-based antiaircraft guns while it was inside Syrian airspace, American officials said, a finding in tune with Syria's account and at odds with Turkey.

The Turkish government, which moved tanks to the Syrian border after the June 22 incident, says the debris fell in Syrian waters, but maintains its fighter was shot down without warning in international airspace. Ankara also has said the jet was hit too far from Syrian territory to have been engaged by an antiaircraft gun.

Damascus has said it shot down the plane with an antiaircraft battery with an effective range of about 1.5 miles.

"We see no indication that it was shot down by a surface-to-air missile" as Turkey says, said a senior defense official. Officials declined to specify the sources of their information. The senior U.S. defense official cautioned that much remains unknown about the incident.

A Turkish official said he wasn't aware of the American doubts, and reiterated the government's position that a Syrian missile downed the plane in international airspace.



The Turkish government has scheduled a special meeting for Saturday morning on Syria. A spokesman for the prime minister said the U.S. intelligence on the incident would likely be discussed.

The downing of the jet spurred fears of a widening regional conflict and led the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, following a presentation on Tuesday by Turkey, to condemn Syria's action.

The use of antiaircraft fire would suggest the Turkish plane was flying low to the ground, and slowly, U.S. officials said-though Syria said the jet was traveling at 480 miles an hour.

If hit by antiaircraft fire, the jet likely came closer to the Syrian shoreline than Turkey says, U.S. officials said.

The plane's pilots haven't been found, and the Turkish Navy has continued to search for them. U.S. officials say they believe the pilots perished.

Some current and former American officials believe Ankara has been testing Syrian defenses. The version of the Turkish F-4 Phantom that was shot down typically carries surveillance equipment, according to U.S. defense officials.

A former senior U.S. official who worked closely with Turkey said he believed the flight's course was meant to test Syria's response. "You think that the airplane was there by mistake?" the former official said.

"These countries are all testing how fast they get picked up and how fast someone responds," said a senior U.S. official. "It's part of training."

The Turkish official said the plane wasn't on a surveillance mission. "All NATO members have condemned the Syrian hostile act and have supported Turkey," the official said.

The emerging discrepancies could prove embarrassing to Ankara and strain continuing discussions between the U.S. and Turkey, a NATO ally that shares a long border with Syria.

Turkey occupies a critical role in the U.S. and Western strategy for dealing with the Syrian crisis. American officials and defense analysts say the U.S. approach depends largely on Turkey's willingness to keep pressure on Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

NATO officials said Turkey's presentation on the incident on Tuesday was very detailed, but diplomats didn't closely question the Turks on their version of events. The U.S. backed Turkey and, American officials said, pushed NATO to issue a statement sharply condemning Syria.

The incident has put NATO in a tough spot. Alliance members are eager to back Ankara, but don't want to be dragged into a military conflict in Syria.

If the plane had been struck by a missile, a senior military official said, it would be an indication that Damascus had authorized the action. But the use of antiaircraft fire may mean a local commander decided on his own initiative to fire at the Turkish plane, according to officials and analysts.

U.S. defense officials said they weren't alarmed by Turkey's movement of forces to its border with Syria. Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, praised Turkey's "very measured" approach. "I've asked them, and they are not seeking to be provocative," Gen. Dempsey said.

The U.S.-Turkish relationship is unlikely to be affected by the apparent discrepancies in accounts of the downing of the jet. Cooperation between Ankara and Washington has grown closer in recent months, after a period of significant strain in 2009 and 2010.

That marks a turnaround for Turkey, which 18 months ago moved to cultivate relations and trade with neighboring Muslim regimes, including Mr. Assad's, while downgrading ties with former ally Israel, raising concerns in Washington.

The revolutions of the Arab Spring, however, upended that policy. In a major change, Turkey agreed last fall to house a NATO missile-defense system, which was designed by the U.S. to contain Iran.

Turkish analysts said the debate in Turkey is now focused on the escalating tensions along the country's 565-mile border with Syria.

"What's important for most Turks is that the government has been seen to respond by boosting troop capacity on the border, which will further pressure Assad," said Atilla Yesilada, a partner at Istanbul-based political risk consultancy Istanbul Analytics.

Write to Julian E. Barnes at julian.barnes@wsj.com, Adam Entous at adam.entous@wsj.com and Joe Parkinson at joe.parkinson@dowjones.com
A version of this article appeared June 30, 2012, on page A9 in the U.S. edition of The Wall Street Journal, with the headline: Doubts Cast on Turkey's Story of Jet.

http://online.wsj.co...cleTabs=article

[UGUR]

- not possible to make joint military operation or joint peace operation by muslim countries because all of them in #### ,corruption ,ignorance (including iran ,turkey and Pakistan) ..  iran is in #### and in terrible corruption  but not prostitute of imperialists  but other muslim countries ,turkey,Pakistan etc etc
all of them prostitutes of their big brothers therefore union between them means - piece of #### -
-syria matter means russian-american wrestling..
americans dont want to deal directly but pushing turkey to finish syria
-syrian army and air defense system dont have any threat against americans and even to turkish army , if a war occurs , 90 percent of syrian air defense will be destroyed in 24-48 hours time..
-syria is very very weak country ,their economy is thin but russia is big behind them..
-esed will live as far as russia stay behind him then will die like gaddafi..
-after syria then iran to be finished then Pakistan AND TURKEY , yes , both of them will be divided... (no need to mention EGYPT as their next 100-200 years already destroyed and also KSA ,no need to mention about that as big brother will kill their best prostitute at the end ,no before )
big brother wants small,weaker and ignorant muslims states  forever....

sorry but above the reality ..
you must work and sweat in the peace otherwise your blood will shed in the war.
the men who dont fight as men in the war ,will cry like women....

[crazyinsane105]

UGUR, on 01 July 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

-syrian army and air defense system dont have any threat against americans and even to turkish army , if a war occurs , 90 percent of syrian air defense will be destroyed in 24-48 hours time..

Just curious where you got that figure, any sources? Sorry, but every single source I have read states that Syria's air defense is pretty heavy and will take an extended campaign only the US can do in order to neutralize it effectively to the point where a safe haven can be created for rebel forces. Not a single source I've come across has stated that within 48 hours Syria will be neutralized.

[caliph]

bro it is true syrian air defences could be destroyed in 72 hours but the danger is in assad's chemical and boilogical weapons. if turkey attacks and If assad is going to fall and if he knows that, then he wont like to die like ghadafi, he rather take others with him by unleashing chemical and biological weapon on turkey. in that scenario will lead to WW3 because if turkish cities are hit with 10s of thaousands of death then erdogan might be compelled to attack assad's main supporters like Iran and russia.
best option would be to arm the rebels to the teeth.

As for ugur remark about west want turkey to deal with syria is also bull$. because the west is only giving lip service against assad but in reality very worried of syria falling to the Muslim Brotherhood. "Israel is confortable with the devil it knows than the devil it doesnt know" and so the  zionist are supporting assad regime behind the scene which the rebels have already protested regarding the matter.
it is in the interest of Turkey to get involved in syria to help the muslim there but its not getting American or Nato support. It would benefit turkey extremely in terms of influence and economy if muslim brotherhood gov was to take over in syria. The west is trying to give assad time via arab league plan and then the annans plan but the uprising is not dying and inshallah all liars will lose.

[UGUR]

crazyinsane105, on 01 July 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

Just curious where you got that figure, any sources? Sorry, but every single source I have read states that Syria's air defense is pretty heavy and will take an extended campaign only the US can do in order to neutralize it effectively to the point where a safe haven can be created for rebel forces. Not a single source I've come across has stated that within 48 hours Syria will be neutralized.

heavy syrian air defense !! should be joke ...
dont look turkish old f-4 downed by them but look israeli jets bombing inside syria while syrians sleeping..
they could not even see israili jets in the radar system..
i give only 2 days to destroy their air defense , not more..

[UGUR]

caliph, on 01 July 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

bro it is true syrian air defences could be destroyed in 72 hours but the danger is in assad's chemical and boilogical weapons. if turkey attacks and If assad is going to fall and if he knows that, then he wont like to die like ghadafi, he rather take others with him by unleashing chemical and biological weapon on turkey. in that scenario will lead to WW3 because if turkish cities are hit with 10s of thaousands of death then erdogan might be compelled to attack assad's main supporters like Iran and russia.
best option would be to arm the rebels to the teeth.

As for ugur remark about west want turkey to deal with syria is also bull$. because the west is only giving lip service against assad but in reality very worried of syria falling to the Muslim Brotherhood. "Israel is confortable with the devil it knows than the devil it doesnt know" and so the  zionist are supporting assad regime behind the scene which the rebels have already protested regarding the matter.
it is in the interest of Turkey to get involved in syria to help the muslim there but its not getting American or Nato support. It would benefit turkey extremely in terms of influence and economy if muslim brotherhood gov was to take over in syria. The west is trying to give assad time via arab league plan and then the annans plan but the uprising is not dying and inshallah all liars will lose.

completely wrong..
erdogan was underheavy pressure by americans to finish esed..
west will never give time to asad as they dont want to see asad and russian military base there..
west doesnt care new syrian ruling class will be brotherhood or something like that as far as they can control (look libya , already divided and killing each other and eastern libya want to separate..)
dont be so hopefull for egyptian brotherhood as noting will be changed morever egypt will be worse and worse..
on the other hand , end of esed means end of iran-turkey-Pakistan..
for turkey : syrian kurds will join northern iraqs then all together with turkish kurds , get ready very big new invented kurdistan sooner to be established in favour of israel...

the reaility , muslim world sinking everyday..

[caliph]

brother ugur. A turkish jet shot down and US media is now blaming turkey. Dont you understand what that message says? we know US is not in favor of Turkey rising with its economy and military but there is not only 2 players in this game i.e US and Russia or Islam versus Zionist. Muslim need to come out of this mindset and realise there are several players with competing interest. The old players are US and Russia but the new players are neo-ottoman and neo-safavids.

for the neo-ottomans it would be a complete victory if the rebels take power in Syria but losers will be Iran and US. Russia could have had their naval base if they stayed more nuetral from the outset. Assad staying power means victory for Iran and russia but Turkey will be loser and US gains or loss unchanged.

as for the Egyptian brotherhood its too early to judge them and as US attacking Iran is nonsense. there will be no attack against Iran its all a charade. Iran will be preserved by the west as a powerful card to used against Sunnis should there be an attempt for the return of the caliphate

[crazyinsane105]

UGUR, on 01 July 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

heavy syrian air defense !! should be joke ...
dont look turkish old f-4 downed by them but look israeli jets bombing inside syria while syrians sleeping..
they could not even see israili jets in the radar system..
i give only 2 days to destroy their air defense , not more..

Unless you have some inside knowledge about Syria's air defense system, then its a safer bet to listen to military and security advisers who routinely point out that Syria's air defense systems will be very problematic to deal with if the US is not included in any operation.

Read a bit more about the Israeli assault as well. The Syrians have invested nearly 3 billion dollars in their air defense system ever since the 2007 assault (which also bypassed the heavier defended areas). It includes systems such as the Buk-M1, SA-2 Pechora, upgraded SA-6, and Pantsyr-S1 systems. Then there are various radar systems which are supporting these units as well which have also been purchased, so no, your analysis of 'two days' is far off. I highly suggest you take a look at US SEAD operations in Iraq 1991 and Kosovo 1999. Both of these operations went on for weeks on end, and Syria has a much tougher air defense system than both of those countries.

Details of the downing along the Syrian coast are still emerging, but officials said Syria's air defenses have been beefed up by purchases from Russia since Israeli fighter jets destroyed a nuclear reactor under construction in the Syrian desert nearly five years ago.

As a result, U.S. military officials said that, at least on paper, the Syrian air defenses appear to be far more robust than those encountered by NATO in Libya and stronger than even Iran's.

"I can name you worse (systems), but they are in places like China," said an Air Force official who spoke anonymously because he was not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.

Concerns about the capability of the Syrian military are only one reason the international community has refused to intervene in the bloody crackdown on opposition groups by the regime of President Bashar al-Assad.

But defense officials and military analysts say defeating Syria's air defenses would require a sustained U.S. military effort that would probably lead to civilian casualties.

http://seattletimes....68_syria27.html

[caliph]

Bro don't believe these so called experts. They only fulfill a purpose for someone. it's a joke when he say's about Syrian air defence prevented them from dealing with Assad. Cruise missile could do the job alone of turning those defence into obsolete piece.

[crazyinsane105]

caliph, on 01 July 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Bro don't believe these so called experts. They only fulfill a purpose for someone. it's a joke when he say's about Syrian air defence prevented them from dealing with Assad. Cruise missile could do the job alone of turning those defence into obsolete piece.

I guess you never read up about US SEAD operations in any country....well whatever, you're entitled to your opinion.

[UGUR]

caliph, on 01 July 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

brother ugur. A turkish jet shot down and US media is now blaming turkey. Dont you understand what that message says? we know US is not in favor of Turkey rising with its economy and military but there is not only 2 players in this game i.e US and Russia or Islam versus Zionist. Muslim need to come out of this mindset and realise there are several players with competing interest. The old players are US and Russia but the new players are neo-ottoman and neo-safavids.

for the neo-ottomans it would be a complete victory if the rebels take power in Syria but losers will be Iran and US. Russia could have had their naval base if they stayed more nuetral from the outset. Assad staying power means victory for Iran and russia but Turkey will be loser and US gains or loss unchanged.

as for the Egyptian brotherhood its too early to judge them and as US attacking Iran is nonsense. there will be no attack against Iran its all a charade. Iran will be preserved by the west as a powerful card to used against Sunnis should there be an attempt for the return of the caliphate

brother,
do not look usa media, we do not know what is behind it , usa media say plane downed within syrian borders ,usa goverment giving support to turkish goverment..
your  neo-ottoman and neo-safavid theories are optimistic and not have enough power to do so,
i can write here 2-3 pages information about that but shortly , turkish economic growth is completely bullshit,
turkish economy running on debts , loans ,loans become drug , and  they are pumping loans to turkey ,
the turkish people heavily debted (houses,cars ) , the total debts around 600 billion usd already..
please do not look the face , try to look what is behind the face as we muslims ,looking only to beauty of the face..

[UGUR]

crazyinsane105, on 01 July 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

Unless you have some inside knowledge about Syria's air defense system, then its a safer bet to listen to military and security advisers who routinely point out that Syria's air defense systems will be very problematic to deal with if the US is not included in any operation.

Read a bit more about the Israeli assault as well. The Syrians have invested nearly 3 billion dollars in their air defense system ever since the 2007 assault (which also bypassed the heavier defended areas). It includes systems such as the Buk-M1, SA-2 Pechora, upgraded SA-6, and Pantsyr-S1 systems. Then there are various radar systems which are supporting these units as well which have also been purchased, so no, your analysis of 'two days' is far off. I highly suggest you take a look at US SEAD operations in Iraq 1991 and Kosovo 1999. Both of these operations went on for weeks on end, and Syria has a much tougher air defense system than both of those countries.

Details of the downing along the Syrian coast are still emerging, but officials said Syria's air defenses have been beefed up by purchases from Russia since Israeli fighter jets destroyed a nuclear reactor under construction in the Syrian desert nearly five years ago.

As a result, U.S. military officials said that, at least on paper, the Syrian air defenses appear to be far more robust than those encountered by NATO in Libya and stronger than even Iran's.

"I can name you worse (systems), but they are in places like China," said an Air Force official who spoke anonymously because he was not authorized to discuss the matter publicly.

Concerns about the capability of the Syrian military are only one reason the international community has refused to intervene in the bloody crackdown on opposition groups by the regime of President Bashar al-Assad.

But defense officials and military analysts say defeating Syria's air defenses would require a sustained U.S. military effort that would probably lead to civilian casualties.

http://seattletimes....68_syria27.html

israili air operations continiously running on against syria,.

[platinum786]

Crazyinsane educate us. Could you provide some links about issues faced by the Usa or some keywords to Google.

To me it seems possible. All sams use radar, can't awacs be used to detect ground based radar signals? Could say land based baburs then be used to the source of those signals?

[blueazure]

it's difficult to pass a judgement regarding the latest syrian air defences but these newer russian systems have been specifically designed to prevent a repeat of 91 .. ( atleast the advertised capabilities )

basically , much shorter processing times for tracking, locking and missile firing, multitasking in the form of attacking at-least 6,7  targets and much improved PESA radars to work in tough ECM to name a few.. these new system take Pk to a new level where the pantsir 1 for eg can take out cruise missiles and even PGMs ,

most importantly, NATO would never initiate a campaign with the presence of Russian military on ground ( who could be actually manning these systems )

[crazyinsane105]

platinum786, on 02 July 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

Crazyinsane educate us. Could you provide some links about issues faced by the Usa or some keywords to Google.

To me it seems possible. All sams use radar, can't awacs be used to detect ground based radar signals? Could say land based baburs then be used to the source of those signals?

http://www.ausairpow...Deployment.html

Syria's SAM network is very robust on paper, and would appear to offer a significant degree of protection at first glance, but this is not necessarily the case. Against a limited incursion, the Syrian air defense network remains capable, despite the reliance on aging Soviet-era systems. This is one likely factor which drove the Israeli Air Force to circumvent SAM-defended areas when striking the Dayr az Zawr suspect nuclear facility in 2007. Said reliance on Soviet-era legacy SAM systems will provide a serious handicap when facing a major air incursion by a modern opponent. It is time for Syria to modernize its strategic SAM defenses if it desires to retain the ability to defend its airspace in the 21st Century

[crazyinsane105]

platinum786, on 02 July 2012 - 05:28 AM, said:

Crazyinsane educate us. Could you provide some links about issues faced by the Usa or some keywords to Google.

To me it seems possible. All sams use radar, can't awacs be used to detect ground based radar signals? Could say land based baburs then be used to the source of those signals?

The biggest problems are the countermeasures that can go against HARM missiles. When the Serbians were facing the onslaught of NATO, do you know how they fooled HARM missiles from targeting their age old radar systems? They actually used commercial microwaves that people have in their homes, opened them up and pointed them towards the sky, and the HARM missiles were fooled into hitting them instead of the radar sites (the emissions microwaves gave was the same as those given by the radar sites). Now the Serbs had to constantly move their SAM sites and they were not successful in shooting down many NATO aircraft, but the point of SAMs is for deterrence against enemy aircraft, not suppression or dominance.

The problem with current Russian and Chinese SAM systems is that they will be much harder to fool with current SEAD techniques. Its quite easy to say 'fire a cruise missile or HARM missile,' but what will you do if Syria has systems that shoot down incoming PGMs (which they do)? Or better yet, if they can simply mess with the navigation of these systems and make them go astray (such as how Iran dealt with the stealth drone)? One thing to note: the SA-11 was used against the Russians by the Georgians in 2008. It was so effective that the Russians were not even able to jam it or come out with any countermeasures for the entirety of the war even though they were the ones who designed and built it! That should give you an idea of what NATO will be facing against Syria if an incursion were to happen, and this is simply what we do know right now. Had the Russians decided to deliver the S-300 to Syria, then things would have been even worse (they decided to cancel the order last week, most likely because they don't want the SAM to fall into the wrong hands if Assad falls or due to financial issues the regime is having).

[blueazure]

serbian air defences didnt shoot down much NATO a/c yet even the RWR warning from an old SA 3 radar would make the nato pilots jettison their bomb loads and make them run back which was considered a mission kill. the serbians even went to the extreme of flying alongside NATO drones in Mi 17 helis , rest was a burst from a DhSk ..



in short, NATO made sure their CAP missions were well away from serb air defences over the baltic where they were barely effective

[platinum786]

Acha, I will have a good read of this. I didn't realise the ability to hit cruise missiles was possible. How effective is it? What about land based SRBM's, like Abdali? They are a lot faster than cruise missiles i presume, so are they also as vulnerable? Couldn't volleys of rocket attacks be used to deplete the ammunition of such hi-tech systems.


Also wrt microwaves and radar stations, couldn't you tell the difference from the range you can pick up the signal at? or the signal strength? I can't remember much of my A-level physics, but all waves eventually lose energy don't they? Is the household microwave a good match for a radar used by a long/medium range sam system?

[safdar]

crazyinsane105, on 02 July 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

The biggest problems are the countermeasures that can go against HARM missiles. When the Serbians were facing the onslaught of NATO, do you know how they fooled HARM missiles from targeting their age old radar systems? They actually used commercial microwaves that people have in their homes, opened them up and pointed them towards the sky, and the HARM missiles were fooled into hitting them instead of the radar sites.

True, because the HARM missile uses passive seekers that can only tell longitudinal direction not range and lock-on to any strong microwave emitter within range. New HARM missiles have active radar. Radar = range and direction.  The problem with active radar is of course they get detected and shot down, the HARMS with active guidance have no counter measures, they need EA-6B Prowler.

[aamirzs]

Dozens of Syrian soldiers defect to Turkey: news agency

http://www.focus-fen....php?id=n282082

Ankara. Dozens of Syrian soldiers including top officers defected to neighbouring Turkey on Monday, the Anatolia news agency reported, AFP reports.

The 85 soldiers who fled include one general and other senior officials, the agency said, citing local officials.

The latest defections bring to 14 the number of Syrian generals to have crossed into Turkey, abandoning the regime of Syria's President Bashar al-Assad.

The latest group of soldiers crossed into Turkey at Reyhanli, in the south of the country. They were part of a group of 293 people including many women and children.

Turkey is already sheltering more than 35,000 Syria refugees including many deserters from the country's military, which has been carrying out a crackdown on opposition protesters that has been condemned by Western powers.

Tension between the two countries has increased since Syria shot down a Turkish fighter jet last month.

Syria has insisted the aircraft was in its territory when they shot it down, which Turkey has fiercely disputed. The two pilots have not been found.

On Sunday, Turkey scrambled fighter jets after Syrian helicopters flew close to the border.

[crazyinsane105]

platinum786, on 02 July 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Acha, I will have a good read of this. I didn't realise the ability to hit cruise missiles was possible. How effective is it? What about land based SRBM's, like Abdali? They are a lot faster than cruise missiles i presume, so are they also as vulnerable? Couldn't volleys of rocket attacks be used to deplete the ammunition of such hi-tech systems.


Also wrt microwaves and radar stations, couldn't you tell the difference from the range you can pick up the signal at? or the signal strength? I can't remember much of my A-level physics, but all waves eventually lose energy don't they? Is the household microwave a good match for a radar used by a long/medium range sam system?

I have a rough time remembering my physics as well, but I believe radar emits a much lower frequency wave than a household microwave, but at greater distances the microwave emissions may dissipate and cause the HARM missile to confuse it with a radar. I think its quite safe to say Russian countermeasures to ECM and HARM are much more sophisticated nowadays.

[crazyinsane105]

safdar, on 02 July 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

True, because the HARM missile uses passive seekers that can only tell longitudinal direction not range and lock-on to any strong microwave emitter within range. New HARM missiles have active radar. Radar = range and direction.  The problem with active radar is of course they get detected and shot down, the HARMS with active guidance have no counter measures, they need EA-6B Prowler.

The Russians had HARM missiles with active guidance and they still couldn't find their own SAMs that were being used against them by the Georgians. If the Russians are unable to defeat something they made, that should give an idea of how effective it is. This also does not deal with the fact that the Pantsir-S1 is specifically built to deal with PGMs. With 24 missiles and several thousand rounds of AAA (which is fired at 5,000 rounds per minute), one truck can hold off against quite a few aircraft. The Syrians have bought about 36 of them with deliveries having been made earlier this year and continuing. The SA-11 has also been obtained, but I'm not sure how many batteries were bought. But with 3 billion dollars spent on upgrading their air defense network, and with the Syrians handing off their older equipment to Hezbullah (such as the SA-8 Gecko), it probably means they have enough to take down a number of NATO aircraft before being overwhelmed.

[UGUR]

crazyinsane105, on 02 July 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

The Russians had HARM missiles with active guidance and they still couldn't find their own SAMs that were being used against them by the Georgians. If the Russians are unable to defeat something they made, that should give an idea of how effective it is. This also does not deal with the fact that the Pantsir-S1 is specifically built to deal with PGMs. With 24 missiles and several thousand rounds of AAA (which is fired at 5,000 rounds per minute), one truck can hold off against quite a few aircraft. The Syrians have bought about 36 of them with deliveries having been made earlier this year and continuing. The SA-11 has also been obtained, but I'm not sure how many batteries were bought. But with 3 billion dollars spent on upgrading their air defense network, and with the Syrians handing off their older equipment to Hezbullah (such as the SA-8 Gecko), it probably means they have enough to take down a number of NATO aircraft before being overwhelmed.

all georgian SAM (russian made) upgraded by israel (seekers completely changed )

[crazyinsane105]

UGUR, on 03 July 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

all georgian SAM (russian made) upgraded by israel (seekers completely changed )

Do you have a source for this? I can't possibly see how the Israelis can upgrade some of the latest Russian hardware by themselves without having access to the source codes among other things. There were reports of Israeli SPYDER systems in the area as well as Israeli UAVs, but they didn't touch Georgian SAMs.

[blueazure]

AFAIK, the israelis only upgraded georgian SU 25s ( new cockpit system, color displays etc ) ..

no israeli company offers an upgrade on russian SAMs  as such

[UGUR]

crazyinsane105, on 03 July 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

Do you have a source for this? I can't possibly see how the Israelis can upgrade some of the latest Russian hardware by themselves without having access to the source codes among other things. There were reports of Israeli SPYDER systems in the area as well as Israeli UAVs, but they didn't touch Georgian SAMs.

georgians doesnt have latest russian SAM, they had very old russian SAM..
for the source ,you have to check georgian-russian war and you will see ...

[crazyinsane105]

UGUR, on 04 July 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

georgians doesnt have latest russian SAM, they had very old russian SAM..
for the source ,you have to check georgian-russian war and you will see ...

I tried to search for it, couldn't find anything. No Israeli company offers upgrades to Russian SAMs, so unless you can find something to disprove it, case closed.

Also, Georgia had in possession the Tor-M1 and Buk-M2, both of which represent some of the latest SAMs in Russia's arsenal (they received them from Ukraine).

[Simpleton]

Bodies of Turkish fighter pilots found



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Published: July 4, 2012 at 12:38 PM


DAMASCUS, Syria, July 4 (UPI) -- The bodies of two pilots from the Turkish fighter plane shot down by Syrian forces were found in the Mediterranean Sea Wednesday, officials said.

Turkish military leaders said in a statement efforts had begun to remove the bodies of Capt. Gokhan Ertan and Lt. Hasan Huseyin Aksoy from sea floor, Today's Zaman reported.

The bodies were found by deep-sea exploration vessel EV Nautilus in the eastern Mediterranean Sea. The military, searching for them since the jet was downed June 22, this week launched a specially designed vessel to recover the plane's wreckage from about 3,300 feet below the surface.

Turkey has said the Turkish RF-4E Phantom, an unarmed aircraft, was hit in international airspace after it briefly strayed into Syrian airspace, but Syria said the plane was in Syrian airspace when it was shot down.

After the warplane was shot down more Turkish troops were deployed to the country's border with Syria.

Meanwhile, Syrian President Bashar Assad said the Turkish government under Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has shifted from a friend in the region to directly interfering with Syria's sovereign business.

The Turkish government has "transgressed against the brotherly relations with Syria and started to interfere directly in Syrian affairs," which is unacceptable, Assad said in an interview with Cumhurieyt published Wednesday. "We are an independent country which respects itself and respects its sovereignty."

Thousands of Syrian civilians and military have fled to Turkey as the body count and the violence escalate in the popular uprising against Assad's regime that began in March 2011.

Assad said Turkey later began getting involved in Syria's violent events by supplying logistical support to the "terrorists who have been killing innocent people."

The Assad regime and state-run media have called protesters terrorists and thugs in explaining the violent crackdown in the country since the popular uprising began in March 2011. Erdogan is among the chorus of international voices that have called an end to the violence and condemn Syrian leaders.

The relationship between the two countries is tenuous at best, Assad said, because Erdogan "lost his credibility."

"Rebuilding these bridges depends on his ability to restore credibility on the Arab arena in general, not only in Syria, because this is not a personal issue," Assad said.
"When he has the courage to stop and acknowledge his numerous mistakes at this stage, I don't think the people … will have a problem in forgiving him."

Also Wednesday, a forest fire in the Syrian province of Latakia crossed the border and spread into Turkey, Hurriyet reported.

The fire of unknown origin broke out near Kasab on the Syrian side of the border then spread quickly to Yayladagi in Turkey's southern Hatay province.

[KudosBot]

Russian Defense Ministry Official: Turkish Aircraft Downed in Syrian Waters was on NATO Intelligence Mission

MOSCOW, (SANA) – Chairman of the Social Council at the Russian Defense Ministry, Igor Korotchenko, said that the Turkish aircraft downed in the Syrian territorial waters had violated Syrian airspace on an intelligence mission for the NATO aiming at measuring the capabilities of the Syrian anti-air defenses.

In an interview with Russia Today, Korotchenko said that the Syrian defenses showed high skills in downing this aircraft, stating that this shows that Syrian air defenses can confront any threat.

He said that this is quite important as the west will think deeply about undertaking aerial operations against Syria in the future because it realizes that the losses in planes and pilots will be very significant.

Korotchenko said that Russia has documented information on the infiltration of the aircraft which confirm the truth about the aircraft's mission and its crew's orders, adding that the aircraft was destroyed legally as it was within the Syrian airspace.

He said that the aircraft was conducting espionage and photo reconnaissance of important site, and that the Turks didn't anticipate that the Syrian anti-air defenses will be able to down this aircraft due to its high maneuverability and low altitude, expecting it to return safely to base after finishing its mission.

Korotchenko said that Turkish intelligence sought to obtain information about Syria's anti-air defenses for the benefit of NATO, and that the efficiency of these defenses were proven which constitutes a blow to the Turkish air forces due to this failure.

He also refuted the Turkish officials allegations regarding this incident, saying that Turkish diplomacy is making considerable efforts to appear innocent and lay full blame on Syria.

H. Sabbagh

[gnak]

might be a little off topic, i saw this posted on GLP forums

Russian Journalists with Syrian Soldiers, Recorded fighting with rebels caught with american weapons

http://www.vesti.ru/...html?vid=431720

one word brave chick reporter...

[safdar]

gnak, on 07 July 2012 - 06:37 AM, said:

Russian Journalists with Syrian Soldiers, Recorded fighting with rebels caught with american weapons

Of course this is a well known fact that NATO trough turkey has been fuelling this into a civil war. They have been goading turkey right from the start.

crazyinsane105, on 02 July 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

The Russians had HARM missiles with active guidance and they still couldn't find their own SAMs that were being used against them by the Georgians. If the Russians are unable to defeat something they made, that should give an idea of how effective it is.

HARM missiles are only effective when fighters equipped with DRFM conduct reconnaissance missions around the border regions where SAM are located, and many sorties are required to store SAM radar data to be used later on in jamming and counter measures when SEAD roles are conducted. One of the reason why Pakistan was not given DRFM on the F-16s due to the close proximity of Indian and Pakistani borders, Pakistan also did not buy the HARM missile and instead bought brazilin anti-radiation missile for JF-17. Of course its not very efficient system if missile batteries are place apart from the radars and there is no other seeker that could take out SAM batteries covered by ground clutter. best option is the take out radars with HARM from a stand-off range then perform laser guidance precision strikes.

NATO needs time to gather data before they could actually go into Syria, and I suppose this Turkish jet was conducting such a recon mission when it was bought down. Question is now will the Americans risk the F-22.

[crazyinsane105]

safdar, on 07 July 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

NATO needs time to gather data before they could actually go into Syria, and I suppose this Turkish jet was conducting such a recon mission when it was bought down. Question is now will the Americans risk the F-22.

The F-22 isn't even combat ready yet. The fleet has been grounded multiple times due to serious technical issues that are resulting in the safety of the pilots. My big sister is in the USAF and her department was the one that made the decision to ground the fleet. She says its going to be a very long time before these aircraft are even operational again.