278 replies to this topic

[Magnus]

Turkish warplane 'missing' near Syrian border

Turkey's government has called an emergency security meeting amid reports that one of its fighter jets was shot down by Syrian security forces.

The Turkish military lost contact with an F-4 Phantom over the Mediterranean Sea, south-west of Hatay province.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has told a news conference there is still no confirmation of what brought the jet down, nor of the fate of its two crew.

He was earlier quoted as saying: "The other side have expressed regret".

Relations between Turkey and Syria, once close allies, have deteriorated sharply since the uprising against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad began in March 2011.

'Syrian waters'


The Turkish military said it lost radio contact with the F-4 at 1158 (0858 GMT) on Friday while it was flying over Hatay, about 90 minutes after it took off from Erhac airbase in the province of Malatya, to the north-west.

The private news channel, NTV, later cited unnamed military sources as saying that the plane had crashed off Hatay's Mediterranean coast, in Syrian territorial waters, but that there had been no border violation.

The Syrian coast guard was helping the Turkish coast guard, navy and air force search for the two crew members and the plane, NTV reported.

Witnesses in the Syrian coastal city of Latakia meanwhile told BBC Arabic that Syrian air defences had shot down an unidentified aircraft near the town of Ras al-Basit.

Lebanon's al-Manar television channel - controlled by Lebanon's Shia Hezbollah movement, an ally of the Syrian government - also reported that Syrian security sources had said that "Syrian air defences shot down a Turkish warplane and hit another in Syrian airspace".

There was no immediate confirmation from Turkish officials, but later it was announced that Mr Erdogan would be holding an emergency meeting to discuss the incident with his interior, defence and foreign ministers and the Chief of the General Staff, Gen Necdet Ozel.


Mr Erdogan was also said to have told Turkish reporters on a flight back from Brazil on Friday afternoon that "the other side" had expressed regret over the downing of the F-4, and also that the pilots had been recovered.

But in his televised news conference on arrival at Ankara airport, he appeared to play down suggestions of an apology.

"I cannot confirm whether they have apologised or on what grounds they did so if they apologised," the Hurriyet website quoted him as saying.

Aleppo violence
Inside Syria, the violence has continued with state media reporting that "armed terrorist groups" had abducted and massacred 25 villagers in Aleppo province.

Activists said that rebels had shot dead 26 government supporters who were believed to be militiamen. A video has been posted online, purporting to show the bodies of some of the victims in the village of Darat Izza.

In Aleppo city, activists said a number of people died when security forces opened fire on a demonstration after Friday prayers.

International envoy Kofi Annan has said it is time for the world to exert greater pressure to help bring the violence in Syria to an end.

He was speaking in Geneva alongside the head of the UN observer mission, Maj-Gen Robert Mood, who suspended patrols in Syria at the weekend because of the risks to the safety of the 300 observers.

Mr Annan called for Iran to be involved in attempts to end the violence, a proposal put forward by Russia but rejected by the US.

In a separate development, the BBC has learned that UK government officials have decided to prevent the head of the Syrian Olympic Committee, Gen Mowaffak Joumaa, from travelling to London for the Games.

The visa ban is believed to be linked to his relationship to President Bashar al-Assad's government.

The International Olympic Committee is expected to ratify the decision.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-18554246

[Magnus]

Turkey security summit after jet crash near Syria
By Fulya Ozerkan (AFP) – 6 hours ago  



ANKARA — Turkey searched for a missing fighter-jet and held an emergency security summit Friday, as the prime minister backed off reported comments suggesting Syria had downed the aircraft.
The military plane -- reportedly an F-4 Phantom with two pilots aboard -- lost radio contact and vanished off radar screens around 0900 GMT over the eastern Mediterranean, near the border with Syria.
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, whose government has had tense relations with Damascus amid the uprising there, met military and intelligence chiefs and key ministers for the security meeting.
He said "an exact explanation could be issued after the summit".
Earlier, local media had quoted Erdogan as saying that Syria had apologised over the fighter jet crash, in a comment that suggested it had downed the plane.
"Syria immediately offered a very serious apology for the incident and admitted it was a mistake," the Haberturk daily newspaper quoted Erdogan as saying onboard a plane on his way back from Brazil.
"At this moment the air force and navy are conducting search and rescue operations in the eastern Mediterranean, and luckily our pilots are alive, we have just lost a plane," he reportedly told the daily.
However, at an Ankara press conference, Erdogan said: "I cannot say it was shot down. It's not possible to tell before we have exact information," adding that the details would be clarified after the summit.
Erdogan said he did not have "exact information" but that the meeting would reveal "if Syria really apologised and, if so, why it did".
The prime minister said he had been told that the plane was eight miles (12 kilometres) off the coast in the south of Turkey's Hatay province, close to Syria's Latakia.
"Four gunboats, helicopters and Syrian gunboats are carrying on the joint search," to locate the plane, he said.
Earlier in the day Turkey's military command announced it had lost radar and radio contact with one of its aircraft near Syria.
The plane took off from Malatya airbase in the southeast at 0730 GMT and lost communication with the base at 0858 GMT, the online statement said.
Malatya governor Ulvi Saran told the Anatolia news agency that the aircraft was a F-4 fighter jet with two pilots onboard.
"We have no information right now about the fate of the plane. We are following the developments," he said.
NTV private news channel reported, citing unnamed military sources, that the plane crashed in Syrian territorial waters, and that there had been no violation of the Syrian border.
But the claims were not confirmed by Turkish officials.
Copyright © 2012 AFP. All rights reserved. More »

[crazyinsane105]

Looks like the Syrians shot it down, and are apologizing for it.

[SUPARCO]

Salaam,

Turkey is taking its time taking out the Syrian dictator.  Turkey is fully capable of liberating their Muslim brothers and sisters from the evil the Syrian people have been subject to suffer for decades unabated.  The Usmani Forces should just get on with it and know that the entire Islami Dunya will support them.

Salaam

[crazyinsane105]

SUPARCO, on 22 June 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

Salaam,

Turkey is taking its time taking out the Syrian dictator.  Turkey is fully capable of liberating their Muslim brothers and sisters from the evil the Syrian people have been subject to suffer for decades unabated.  The Usmani Forces should just get on with it and know that the entire Islami Dunya will support them.

Salaam

You're oversimplifying things. Both Turkey and Lebanon have sizable Alawaite minority populations, both of whom will not sit very well if they see Alawites in Syria get massacred after Assad falls. On top of that, the current fighting in Syria has made the Kurdish tribes more bolder in both Iraq and Turkey. These two factors are more than enough for Turkey to not get involved with the Syria fiasco.

[SUPARCO]

crazyinsane105, on 22 June 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

You're oversimplifying things. Both Turkey and Lebanon have sizable Alawaite minority populations, both of whom will not sit very well if they see Alawites in Syria get massacred after Assad falls. On top of that, the current fighting in Syria has made the Kurdish tribes more bolder in both Iraq and Turkey. These two factors are more than enough for Turkey to not get involved with the Syria fiasco.

Salaam,

Turks treat the Alawis as second class citizens.  Turkey could easily massacre the entire Alawis population if they dared ever rose up against Turkey.

Salaam

[crazyinsane105]

SUPARCO, on 22 June 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

Salaam,

Turks treat the Alawites as second class citizens.  Turkey could easily massacre the entire Alawites population if they dared ever rose up against Turkey.

Salaam

Just as easily as they've dealt with the Kurds, right? Whatever economic progress Turkey has made will vaporize if they face any more internal revolts. Turkey is not going to sacrifice itself or its economy just because a bunch of Arabs are across the border killing each other. This isn't a Turkish problem, its an Arab one, and from Turkey's point of view, let them figure it out.

[SUPARCO]

crazyinsane105, on 22 June 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

Just as easily as they've dealt with the Kurds, right? Whatever economic progress Turkey has made will vaporize if they face any more internal revolts. Turkey is not going to sacrifice itself or its economy just because a bunch of Arabs are across the border killing each other. This isn't a Turkish problem, its an Arab one, and from Turkey's point of view, let them figure it out.

Salaam,

No, it's an Islamic issue.

Turkish people and the Syrian people are Muslims while the Syrian government is made up of some abhorrent, blasphemous Hazat Ali Razi'Allahu Anhu worshipping Shia sect.

Brother crazyinsane 105, see if you can spot the Nato-member Turkish economy in the top 20 economies of the world.

http://en.wikipedia...._(nominal)#List

Salaam.

[crazyinsane105]

SUPARCO, on 22 June 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Salaam,

No, it's an Islamic issue.

Turkish people and the Syrian people are Muslims while the Syrian government is made up of some abhorrent, blasphemous Hazat Ali Razi'Allahu Anhu worshipping Shia sect.

Brother crazyinsane 105, see if you can spot the Nato-member Turkish economy in the top 20 economies of the world.

http://en.wikipedia...._(nominal)#List

Salaam.

Has very little to do with Islam buddy. Most of Syria's army is composed of Sunnis still fighting for Assad. If this was a true revolt against the Alawites, from day one most of Syria's 300,000 soldiers would have already defected and turned against Assad. Fact is, this has not happened. There are many Sunnis who support Assad in Syria as well as outside of Syria (Lebanon for example). Whatever Turkey is doing is nothing more than sympathetic lip service for the rebels. Assad can just as easily hand over weapons to Kurdish rebels operating in Turkey and that will cause hell to both the Turkish armed forces as well as their economy (which even though ranks high, will be severely impacted by a renewed insurgency).

The situation in Syria will continue to get worse, and nobody besides Russia will do anything. Ask yourself, why is it that Turkey has done nothing to support the Palestinians besides diplomatic actions (which, symbolic by nature, has not done much to improve the lives of ordinary Palestinians)? Why will they intervene in Syria, a country armed with WMDs and the capability to utilize them? So let's say Turkey does intervene in Syria...do you know how much destruction can result if a Syrian SCUD armed with VX nerve gas hits Istanbul? Ask yourself, is that a risk Turkey is willing to take? Or how about dozens of these missiles hitting major Turkish cities?

If you don't believe me, read about Syria's WMD capabilities and then you can fully understand why the world is not willing to risk intervention:

http://www2.foi.se/rapp/foir1290.pdf

[SUPARCO]

Salaam,

Brother crazyinsane 105, we shall see.

The Green Book follower Colonel Qadhafi, Saddam Hussain who donated his blood for the writing of the Al-Qur'an and Zia-ul-Haq who created the Wahabi/Deobandi Mujahideen, all had no opposition against them too for decades.

I am sure you saw how Allah Almighty gifted all of them their rightly deserved peaceful deaths.

Salaam.

[crazyinsane105]

SUPARCO, on 22 June 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

Salaam,

Brother crazyinsane 105, we shall see.

The Green Book follower Colonel Qadhafi, Saddam Hussain who donated his blood for the writing of the Al-Qur'an and Zia-ul-Haq who created the Wahabi/Deobandi Mujahideen, all had no opposition against them too for decades.

I am sure you saw how Allah Almighty gifted all of them their rightly deserved peaceful deaths.

Salaam.

Assad will fall, its only a matter of time. That's not really up for debate. I just don't think Turkey wants any part of this.

[Magnus]

Syria says it shot down Turkish jet in Syrian airspace



ANKARA, TURKEY—Syria said Friday it shot down a Turkish military plane that entered Syrian air space, and Turkey vowed to “determinedly take necessary steps” in response.

It was the most clear and dramatic escalation in tensions between the two countries, which used to be allies before the Syrian revolt began in March 2011. Turkey has become one of the strongest critics of the Syrian regime’s brutal response to the country’s uprising.

Late Friday, Syria’s state-run news agency, SANA, said the military spotted an “unidentified aerial target” that was flying at a low altitude and at a high speed.

“The Syrian anti-air defences counteracted with anti-aircraft artillery, hitting it directly,” SANA said. “The target turned out to be a Turkish military plane that entered Syrian airspace and was dealt with according to laws observed in such cases.”

Turkey issued a statement Friday night following a two-hour security meeting led by Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, saying Syrian forces downed the plane and that the two Turkish pilots remain missing.

It said Turkey “will determinedly take necessary steps” in response, without saying what those actions would be.

“Following the evaluation of data provided by our related institutions and the findings of the joint search and rescue efforts with Syria, it is understood that our plane was downed by Syria,” the statement said, without providing other details.

Relations between Turkey and Syria were already tense before the downing of the F4 plane on Friday.

Turkey has joined nations such as the U.S. in saying that Syrian President Bashar Assad should step down because of the regime’s brutal suppression of the uprising in his country. Turkey also has set up refugee camps on its border for more than 32,000 Syrians who have fled the fighting.

Syria and Turkey have expelled each other’s ambassadors and Syria has accused Turkey of supporting Syrian opposition and even allowing Syrian rebels to operate out of Turkish soil. Turkey strongly denies the allegations.

Turkey’s military provided no details on the downed plane’s mission Friday, but some Turkish TV reports said it was on a reconnaissance flight.

Syria claimed the jet violated its air space over territorial waters, penetrating about one kilometre, but that Syrian vessels joined the search for it, according to Turkey’s NTV television. It said Syria forces realized that it was a Turkish jet after firing at it.

In another development Friday, a video emerged showing more than a dozen bloodied corpses in Syria, some of them piled on top of each other and in military uniforms, in what the government said was a “massacre” by rebels in the northern province of Aleppo.

Arab Awakening coverage

The circumstances of the killings were not immediately clear. But in the video — which The Associated Press could not independently verify — the narrator said the dead were members of the “shabiha,” or pro-regime gunmen.

SANA said terrorist groups had killed and mutilated at least 25 people in Daret Azzeh, a rebel-held area in the Aleppo countryside.

The government refers to rebels as terrorists.

“The terrorist groups in Daret Azzeh committed a brutal massacre against the citizens, whom they had kidnapped earlier in the day,” SANA said.

The report said at least 25 people were killed, but others were missing.

Although the city of Aleppo, Syria’s largest, has been relatively quiet since the uprising against Assad’s regime began in March last year, towns and villages around it have witnessed intense clashes between troops and opposition fighters. Activists say more than 14,000 people have been killed since the uprising began.

Daret Azzeh has endured intense government shelling over the past two weeks as Assad’s forces try to regain areas taken by rebels.

Also Friday, the Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said four senior army officers have defected from the regime. The group provided a video purporting to show two brigadier-generals and two colonels who declared they were joining the opposition.

The group said the defections came Thursday — the same day a Syria fighter pilot flew his MiG-21 warplane to neighbouring Jordan, where he was given asylum.

Also on Friday, UN envoy Kofi Annan said Iran should be involved in efforts to end the escalating violence in Syria.

Annan, the joint UN-Arab League envoy, told reporters that he is working to convene a so-called “contact group” meeting on Syria in Geneva on June 30. The United States has vehemently opposed the involvement of Iran, which Russia has demanded. Annan said the composition of the meeting is one of the sticking points that may not be resolved until next week.

“I have made it quite clear that I believe Iran should be part of the solution,” the former UN secretary general told reporters in Geneva, flanked by Maj. Gen. Robert Mood, the head of the struggling UN observer mission in Syria. “If we continue the way we are going and competing with each other, it could lead to destructive competition and everyone will pay the price.”

Annan said it was “time for countries of influence to raise the level of pressure on the parties on the ground.” However, he had no specific proposals for changing his six-point peace plan, which he said Syria had not yet implemented but still might support in the future.

With files from Reuters

http://www.thestar.c...-syrian-tv?bn=1

Edited by Magnus, 22 June 2012 - 08:04 PM.

[Magnus]

Turkey promises 'decisive' action after Syria shoots down its fighter jet



The loss of one of the Turkish Air Force's F-4 Phantom marked the most dangerous development yet in Syria's 15-month uprising and left Western powers scrambling over how to respond.

Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish prime minister, flew home from Brazil to hold an emergency briefing with his intelligence and military chiefs after radio and radar contact was lost with the aircraft as it conducted a mission close to the Syrian coast.

"Following the evaluation of data provided by our related institutions and the findings of the joint search and reduce efforts with Syria, it is understood that our plane was downed by Syria," his office said in a statement.

Mr Erdogan promised that Turkey's response would be both "decisive" and carried out with "determination". Although he did not divulge what steps he was contemplating, a senior member of his ruling party had earlier declared that if the aircraft was shown to have been shot down by Syria it would amount to a "declaration of war".

Syria confirmed that it had brought down the aircraft, saying in a statement: "Our air defences confronted a target that penetrated our air space over our territorial waters pre-afternoon on Friday and shot it down. It turned out to be a Turkish military plane."

In a sign that it was aware of the gravity of the situation, Syria seemed to be trying to repair the damage, deploying vessels to join a search and rescue operation to locate the aircraft's two pilots in the waters off its coast.

The incident represented the fulfilment of one of the international community's greatest fears after months of predictions that the Syrian conflict could easily burst its borders.
Western powers, and particularly the United States, are likely to come under pressure to support Turkey should it choose to retaliate with military force. Mr Erdogan's government has long warned that it would not tolerate any Syrian challenge to its security.

As a member of Nato, Turkey could potentially invoke Chapter V of the alliance's treaty which states that an attack on one state would be viewed as an attack on all signatories of the alliance.

But because the clause dictates that such an attack must be carried out on European or American soil, Mr Erdogan is unlikely to make such demands of his Western allies.
But he could well invoke Chapter IV of the treaty, which allows a member state to convene an emergency summit of the whole alliance if "the security of any of the parties is threatened".

Turkey came close to doing so in April after Syrian forces opened fire into its territory, wounding two Turkish nationals and two Syrians at a refugee camp close to the borders.
It was persuaded not to do so by the United States, but is likely to be less malleable now. In return for agreeing to allowing Saudi and Qatari funnel weapons to the rebels through its territory, Mr Erdogan sought and received assurances that America would protect Turkey from any Syrian backlash, according to Western officials.

Turkey, which has been at the forefront of regional efforts to oust Mr Assad and has given sanctuary to rebels seeking his overthrow, could also try to revive previous efforts to win international support for a buffer zone in Syria's border regions.The jet incident came as the Syrian government accused its rebel foes of carrying out a "massacre" of Mr Assad's supporters after the emergence of grisly video footage showing more than a dozen bloodied and mutilated corpses.

A pro-opposition human rights group confirmed that rebels were behind the killings, but said that the victims were members of the pro-Assad Shabiha, the feared Alawite militia accused of murdering hundreds of Sunni civilians.Meanwhile, government troops killed at least ten people in the city of Aleppo, according to activists.

Edited by Magnus, 22 June 2012 - 08:21 PM.

[Magnus]

Turkey confirms Syria shot down F-4 military jet, search for pilots ongoing
Friday, 22 June 2012

Syria shot down a Turkish military fighter jet in the eastern Mediterranean on Friday, Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan’s office said in a statement, amid earlier ambiguity over whether the plane had been downed by Syrian defense forces or had crashed.

“As a result of information obtained from the evaluation of our concerned institutions and from within the joint search and rescue operations with Syria, it is understood that our plane was brought down by Syria,” Erdogan’s office said.

Turkey would decide on its response to the incident once all of the details became clear, it said in the statement, issued after a two-hour meeting between Erdogan, members of his cabinet and the military.

His office also said that search and rescue operations were continuing for two missing pilots.

Following Erdogan's statement, the Syrian military said it shot down the Turkish military aircraft "over Syrian territorial waters."

"Our air defences confronted a target that penetrated our air space over our territorial waters pre-afternoon on Friday and shot it down. It turned out to be a Turkish military plane," a statement by the military circulated on state media said.

Earlier on Friday, Erdogan said he could not confirm whether Syria had admitted to shooting down a Turkish warplane in the Mediterranean.

While reports had circulated that Syria had apologized for the incident, claiming it was a mistake, Erdogan told a press conference in Ankara that he had no firm information on the apology.

He had also said he could not confirm whether the plane had been shot down or crashed.

Earlier, the Turkish army said it lost radar and radio contact with one of its aircrafts on the Mediterranean near neighboring Syria, and a television station said it had crashed in Syrian territorial waters.

The conflicting, or perhaps extra cautious, statements from the Turkish PM came after Erdogan was reportedly quoted by Haberturk daily newspaper earlier on Friday as saying: "Syria immediately offered a very serious apology for the incident and admitted it was a mistake."

He had also been quoted by the paper as saying the two pilots of the Turkish F-4 fighter jet were alive after the incident.

“At this moment the air force and navy are conducting search and rescue operations in the western Mediterranean and luckily our pilots are alive, we have just lost a plane,” he told journalists while travelling back from Brazil.

In Ankara, Erdogan told reporters there is no news on the pilots and Turkish ships and helicopters were searching for the missing pilots together with Syrian ships.

The senior adviser to the Turkish president, Arshad Harmozlo, had said that the statement from the Turkish news report was baseless, and instead reiterated Erdogan’s comments.

“We have no confirmation surrounding the Syrian apology or even that Syria has shot down the jet … The rescue operation to find the pilots continues,” he told Al Arabiya in a telephone interview.

He also said he has no information on claims Turkish jet pilots have been captured by Syria.

Shortly after, Erdogan met military and intelligence chiefs and key ministers for a security meeting, after which he released a statement confirming Syria had downed the plane.

Earlier on Friday, Lebanon’s Hezbollah-owned Al-Manar television station had already confirmed this. The channel said that Syrian air defenses shot down the Turkish military aircraft, quoting Syrian security sources.

“Syrian security sources confirmed to a Manar correspondent in Damascus that Syrian defense forces shot down the Turkish fighter jet,” the Hezbollah-owned channel said.

Meanwhile, pro-Iranian Al-Mayadeen television station, which is based in Lebanon, quoted what it said were Turkish sources as saying a jet had been shot down by Syrian air defenses near the border with Turkey.

Tense relations
Turkey, which had drawn close to Syria before the uprising against Assad, became one of the Syrian leader’s fiercest critics when he responded violently to pro-democracy protests inspired by popular upheavals elsewhere in the Arab world.

Ankara has previously floated the possibility of setting up some kind of safe haven or humanitarian corridor inside Syria, which would entail military intervention, but has said it would undertake no such action without U.N. Security Council approval.

Turkey said it had lost contact with one of its military aircraft off its southeastern coast, and a television station said it had crashed in Syrian territorial waters.

The plane took off from Malatya airbase in the southeast at 0730 GMT and lost communication with the base at 0858 GMT in the southwest of the Hatay province bordering Syria, the military command said in a statement posted online.

“Search and rescue efforts have started immediately,” it said.

The Hurriyet daily newspaper reported that the plane had gone down in international waters and that the two airmen had been found alive and well following a search operation by Turkish forces.

Turkish warplanes regularly patrol along and off Turkey's southern Mediterranean coast.

http://english.alara.../22/222135.html

[butterfly]

SUPARCO, on 22 June 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

Salaam,

Brother crazyinsane 105, we shall see.

The Green Book follower Colonel Qadhafi, Saddam Hussain who donated his blood for the writing of the Al-Qur'an and Zia-ul-Haq who created the Wahabi/Deobandi Mujahideen, all had no opposition against them too for decades.

I am sure you saw how Allah Almighty gifted all of them their rightly deserved peaceful deaths.

Salaam.

As he did you zulfikar Ali Bhutto, murtaza Bhutto, Banazir the Oxford cheap ......, zardari and Bilawal to come. HOW YOU SPEAK WITH TWO TONGUE. you speak of Islam and yet you support zardari and PPP..what was the name of the minister who couldn't say sura Ikhlas and is all over you tube?

[blueazure]

looks like all those new russian SAM systems are being tested ..



---------------------

[rungroot]

Man, Turkey needs to steer itself clear of this hornets' nest that is Syria and not be conned into becoming a nato stooge...

[butterfly]

RUNGROOT. To the contrary brother.i think with the Syrian oppression of the majority and intention by turkey will be welcomed by the entire Muslim world and west as long as turkey brings like of SA onboard. Defeat the regime and withdraw leaving the problem for the Arabs to sort out. Turkey will them be seen as a liberator and a friend. Syrian army is no match for a professional force. They are Ben struggling against the rebels. It's just a matter of time. I for one hope turkey punishes Syria heavily even if that mean just take out its air assets. Destroy all runways and airforce aircraft on the ground and hot their command on com centres.

[Magnus]

Turkish RF-4E Recce Jet Down Near Syria



Well, this is interesting. A Turkish RF-4E Phantom photo-reconnaissance fighter has apparently gone missing near Turkey’s border with Syria on the Mediterranean coast. RUMINT is spreading that the jet was shot down by Syrian government forces.

UPDATE: Reports are emerging saying the jet was indeed shot down by Syrian forces.

While the BBC is reporting that it was an F-4 Phantom that went down, it should be noted that the Turkish air force only fies the RF-4E recce version of the legendary — and ancient – fighter.

Remember, Turkey is a NATO state and members of the alliance are already providing aide to the Syrian rebels, (including the U.S., the CIA is apparently shipping them weapons).

This RF-4E could well have been gathering intel on Assad’s troops when it was shot down.

It’s also worth asking if this will warrant a heavier intervention by NATO forces on behalf of the rebels?
Here’s what the BBC is reporting.


Read more: http://defensetech.org/#ixzz1yc71qqpY
Defense.org

[crazyinsane105]

butterfly, on 23 June 2012 - 03:56 AM, said:

RUNGROOT. To the contrary brother.i think with the Syrian oppression of the majority and intention by turkey will be welcomed by the entire Muslim world and west as long as turkey brings like of SA onboard. Defeat the regime and withdraw leaving the problem for the Arabs to sort out. Turkey will them be seen as a liberator and a friend. Syrian army is no match for a professional force. They are Ben struggling against the rebels. It's just a matter of time. I for one hope turkey punishes Syria heavily even if that mean just take out its air assets. Destroy all runways and airforce aircraft on the ground and hot their command on com centres.

You along with everybody else I've talked too are completely clueless on how Turkey will deal with a Syrian WMD response on its cities. Or do you guys just keep skipping over that pretending that doesn't exist? Again, for one Syrian soldier the Turks can kill, the Syrians can kill ten Turkish civilians with their deadly chemical and biological weapons. Syria's short range SCUDs can cover all of Turkey so range would not be an issue. A few months into the uprising the Syrians were reported to have positioned their missiles by the Turkish border to deter possible Turkish intervention, and so far its worked.

[Caesar]

SUPARCO, on 22 June 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

Salaam,

Turks treat the Alawites as second class citizens.  Turkey could easily massacre the entire Alawites population if they dared ever rose up against Turkey.

Salaam

Please refrain from idiotic remarks ..... you know it very well that Turkey will not do such a thing.

[tank commander]

Turkey retaliate ?

Why ?

Turkey was in the wrong and that all there is to it . Hostile plane detected syrians shot it down .

My post by some people here would be viewed or come across as some one who is siding with this disgusting regime in Dasmascus im not .
Im being neutral and non partisan just replying to the incident of the plane .

salam .

[kmc]

is US planning to wage war against Syria through Turkey .

This might be a beginning of US vs Iran war, I feel Iran may jump in to support Syria, allowing US to invade Iran giving this reason.

This is just my assumption might happen

[butterfly]

crazyinsane105, on 23 June 2012 - 07:09 AM, said:

You along with everybody else I've talked too are completely clueless on how Turkey will deal with a Syrian WMD response on its cities. Or do you guys just keep skipping over that pretending that doesn't exist? Again, for one Syrian soldier the Turks can kill, the Syrians can kill ten Turkish civilians with their deadly chemical and biological weapons. Syria's short range SCUDs can cover all of Turkey so range would not be an issue. A few months into the uprising the Syrians were reported to have positioned their missiles by the Turkish border to deter possible Turkish intervention, and so far its worked.

Sorry oh great knowledgable armchair general. How dare we mere mortals express an opinion. We humble ourselves against your superior know it all Pakistani jut brain. Once again sorry for speaking. Next time we will all ask your permission as we are clearly clueless.
One thing.....if Syria hits turkey you think alawi areas will go unpunished? Ooooop sorry should have asked before posting a question.

[rungroot]

butterfly, on 23 June 2012 - 03:56 AM, said:

RUNGROOT. To the contrary brother.i think with the Syrian oppression of the majority and intention by turkey will be welcomed by the entire Muslim world and west as long as turkey brings like of SA onboard. Defeat the regime and withdraw leaving the problem for the Arabs to sort out. Turkey will them be seen as a liberator and a friend. Syrian army is no match for a professional force. They are Ben struggling against the rebels. It's just a matter of time. I for one hope turkey punishes Syria heavily even if that mean just take out its air assets. Destroy all runways and airforce aircraft on the ground and hot their command on com centres.

That's a negative butterfly, I cannot and will not endorse any war that will result in the dominance of the nato zionists and there agenda in the region on top of the bodies of dead Muslims only to result in an israelli friendly government in syria that also happens to be anti Iran. That is the ultimate aim of this entire civil war fiasco.  There is only one way forward that will ensure the long term interests of the Ummah and that is for present regime to quietly and peacefully step down and turn over power to a truly pragmatic Islamic government that isNOT sectarian (so friendly to Iran) and is against israel.  Turkey getting militarily involved will do the exact opposite which is what the nato zionists want.  I hope Erdogan is reading this.

[crazyinsane105]

butterfly, on 23 June 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Sorry oh great knowledgable armchair general. How dare we mere mortals express an opinion. We humble ourselves against your superior know it all Pakistani jut brain. Once again sorry for speaking. Next time we will all ask your permission as we are clearly clueless.
One thing.....if Syria hits turkey you think alawi areas will go unpunished? Ooooop sorry should have asked before posting a question.

Actually, I quote reputable online sources that take Syria's WMD program quite seriously. Its quite obvious that the Alawites in Syria will face the brunt of whatever is to come if Assad were to fall, but the current leadership in Damascus will take down whoever they can prior to that happening. Its the biggest reasons why both Turkey and Israel are simply sitting on the sidelines and not wanting to get involved in this mess. The only countries actively involved are Saudi Arabia and Qatar, both well out of Syria's retaliatory capabilities. Without a WMD program and a somewhat formidable air defense, the world would have gotten involved in Syria a long time ago.

[rungroot]

Easy guys, let's not reducible each other's opinions lest we split apart even more.  Unity is the key to success in the dire times we find ourselves in.  Let's convince each other within the bounds of mutual respect or just agree to disagree RESPECTFULLY.  Never forget that we are all on the same side, the side of Allah and his Nobel Messenger S. A. W.

[Magnus]

Newly-supplied Russian Pantsyr-1 anti-air missile used to down Turkish warplane



Turkish Air Force F-4 Super Phantom Friday, June 22, over Latakia Syria used Russian-made self-propelled medium range anti-air Pantsyr-1 missiles recently supplied by Moscow (not as first reported anti-air Buk-M2 missiles). This weapon can down aircraft flying at altitudes up to 12 kilometers and cruise missiles. The unit responsible for the ambush was the 73rd brigade of the Syrian army’s 26th Air Defense Division.

Since the sophisticated weapons were delivered to the Assad regime in recent weeks, it must be assumed that local missile crews had not finished training in their use and would have had to rely on help from their Russian instructors to fire one.

This would be the first instance in the 15-month Syrian uprising of an advanced Russian-supplied weapon hitting the military target of a NATO member. Hence the comment from Washington by US State Department spokesperson Victoria Nuland who said: “We’ve seen the reports… We have obviously been in contact with our Turkish ally…. To my knowledge, they haven’t raised this at NATO at this point.”

Ankara has repeatedly threatened to ask NATO to invoke the pact’s article 5 obligating members to come to the aid of a fellow member coming under attack. In this case, however, the Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan’s rhetoric was relatively restrained. He vowed to “determinedly take necessary steps” in response “once the incident is fully clarified,” leaving Ankara’s response deliberately vague.

President Abdullah Gul spoke out more strongly: “It is impossible to ignore our fighter jet being shot down by Syria,” he said after Damascus admitted to shooting down the plane, claiming its air defenses acted according to standard procedure before realizing it was a Turkish air force jet. Both are searching for the two missing pilots.

DEBKAfile’s military experts add: This was also the first time in five years any weapons system with Israeli manufacturing input had faced a Russian weapon acquired by Syria.

The first time was September 6, 2007, when Israeli fighter-bombers demolished the Iranian-North Korean-built nuclear reactor in the northern Syrian town of Al-Kibar. Airspace over the reactor was guarded by Russian Pantsyr-S1 anti-air missiles. Israeli bombers got through by disabling the Russian missiles’ radar so that Damascus never realized its reactor was being bombed until it had been smashed and Israeli bombers were home.

Five years later, Turkey has lost a Super Phantom which had undergone partial upgrading by the Israeli Aerospace Industry. However, two years ago, Ankara broke off its security and military ties with Jerusalem after a clash at sea between Turkish Mavi Marmara and Israel troops wich intercepted the vessel on its way to break Israel’s Gaza blockade, leaving nine Turkish pro-Palestinian activists dead.

By severing those ties, the Erdogan government left Israel’s improvements unfinished and the Turkish air force’s F-4 short of counter-measures for evading or attacking the latest Russian-made air defense weapons fired by Syria.

According to, DEBKAfile’s military sources waylaying a Turkish military plane over the sea was therefore a simple matter for the new Pantsyr-1.

Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan admitted Saturday that the jet was shot down over the Mediterranean around 13 kilometers west of the Syrian port of Latakia. He did not explain what a Turkish bomber fighter was doing over Syrian territorial waters, but the suggestion, which Western military sources have confirmed, was that Turkish military jets have lately been carrying out almost daily reconnaissance flights over the Syrian coast. Moscow and Damascus apparently decided it was time to stop the missions which among other things spied on the Russian arms supplies transiting Russian bases at the Syrian ports of Tartus and Latakia.

http://www.debka.com...urkish-warplane

Edited by Magnus, 24 June 2012 - 03:35 AM.

[blueazure]

EW suites on an RF 4E ?

[Caesar]

Well I am impressed with the deadly accuracy of Russian missiles. And angry at the incompetence of PA to acquire such weapons.

[kmc]

Turkish Minister: Jet Downed in International Territory

Quote

ISTANBUL, Turkey -  The crisis between Turkey and Syria over Syria's shoot-down of a Turkish military jet has deepened, with Ankara saying the plane was shot down while it was in international airspace. Turkey is now looking for NATO's support.

Speaking Sunday on state-run TRT television, Turkish Foreign Minster Ahmet Davutoglu said the pilots were testing the jet's radar capabilities when it was downed Friday over the Mediterranean.

"The warplane was shot down over international waters several minutes after it had left Syrian airspace," he said.


Damascus claims the plane was shot down while flying low and fast one kilometer off its coast. Davutoglu said the jet had strayed into Syrian airspace by mistake and immediately left after it was warned by Turkish air controllers.

Analysts say the admission the plane was in Syrian airspace will likely fuel growing calls by Turkish opposition politicians to know why the plane was flying so close to Syria, with relations between the two countries so tense.

On Saturday, Turkey's Deputy Prime Minister Bulent Arinc said the jet was a reconnaissance plane.

Damascus has accused Ankara of providing weapons and intelligence on its forces to Syrian rebels.

But Davutoglu denied the plane was involved in any covert action.

"The plane was not on a covert operation -- it was on training mission to test radar, and the plane was unarmed," he said.

Turkey's prime minister has said he will be discussing the situation with the leaders of the main opposition.

Under Turkey's constitution, any military action against a foreign country has to be sanctioned by parliament, although ministers have played down speculation of any imminent armed response.

Political observers in Turkey say despite tense relations with Syria, the Turkish government response has so far been restrained and measured. U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon praised Ankara's behavior in the crisis.

Ankara is now seeking to build international support. The Turkish foreign minister said he will be meeting with NATO envoys on Tuesday under Article 4 of the alliance's founding treaty, which commits all members to protect one anothers' security and borders.

Turkey's government has promised its response will be strong, decisive and legitimate once the facts are known. The severity of that response could depend on the level of international support, along with the fate of the two pilots who remain missing.

http://www.voanews.c...ry/1246484.html

[kmc]

NATO to discuss response to downing of Turkish plane by Syria

Quote

BRUSSELS, Belgium — A spokeswoman says NATO’s governing body will meet Tuesday to discuss the Syrian downing of a Turkish plane.

Oana Lungescu says the North Atlantic Council will meet in Brussels to hear Turkey’s complaint. Turkish officials say the jet was on a training flight Friday when it strayed into Syrian airspace, but was in international airspace when it was shot down.

The consultations will focus on article 4 of NATO’s founding Washington Treaty.

Lungescu said Sunday that under the article, an ally can request consultations “whenever, in the opinion of any of them, their territorial integrity, political independence or security is threatened.”

Copyright 2012 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

http://www.washingto...JJzV_story.html

What next ? war . . . . ..

[blueazure]

its getting clear, routine turkish flights in the vicinity of tartus were meant as a provocation to 'test' syrian air defences,

now when this cold war relic was shot down. this incident is being  used / could be used as an excuse for an all out air campaign similar to libya..

[warhead]

Few days ago the theme was israel being unhappy about the transfer of Buk sams to Syria to prevent another Libya. Now this gives what they want. Syria needs to apoligise and compensate for this mistake. We paid a lot because of stupidity, Libya is lost because gaddafi  didnt leave we also paid a huge cost in unnecessary Gaza war lets not do the same mistake over and over again and think throughly before wwe act.

[crazyinsane105]

It was in Syrian airspace for a time being, so when the SAM system locked onto the F-4E, the pilots probably tried to maneuver and left into international waters where it was actually shot down. It would still be hard to justify a military response to this, since it was Turkey who first violated (and admitted) to this. Article 5 of NATO won't happen because of an aircraft that was shot down after it had entered another country's territory. It would be a different story if Syrian troops were to storm across the border and start shooting, but in this case, a strongly worded response or stricter sanctions will take place. Most NATO countries are in a deep financial mess right now, or soon to be. Not sure if any of them will be in the mood for another costly adventure in the Middle East over this incident....

[crazyinsane105]

blueazure, on 24 June 2012 - 11:28 AM, said:

its getting clear, routine turkish flights in the vicinity of tartus were meant as a provocation to 'test' syrian air defences,

now when this cold war relic was shot down. this incident is being  used / could be used as an excuse for an all out air campaign similar to libya..

From what I make of it, the F-4E may have been attempting to collect info about Syrian troop movements or even possible weapons shipments at sea coming into Latakia. The Turks don't have the F-4 Wild Weasel version which is used exclusively for SEAD, so I don't think they would send in an unarmed F-4E to test Syrian air defense systems. Regardless, it seems that NATO does not have a whole lot of info about these new Russian made SAM systems, otherwise this incident could have been avoided.

[Magnus]

Syrian TV missile testing


Syrian story

Edited by Magnus, 24 June 2012 - 03:11 PM.

[SUPARCO]

Magnus, on 24 June 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:

Syrian story

Salaam,

Brilliant post brother Magnus of the Turkish aircraft being shot down.

I didn't see any missiles being fired, only saw the anti-aircraft gunfire but there was also no aircraft.

Salaam.

[Magnus]

Ankara warns Syria not to challenge Turkey's military

ANKARA, June 24, 2012 (AFP) - Ankara warned Syria on Sunday not to challenge Turkey's military after accusing Damascus of shooting down a Turkish fighter jet in international airspace.

"Nobody should dare put Turkey's (military) capabilities to the test," Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said during an interview on Turkish TRT television.

Syria shot down a Turkish fighter jet while it was flying in international airspace some 15 minutes  before after momentarily straying into Syria's territory, Turkey's foreign minister said on Sunday.

"According to our conclusions, our plane was shot down in international airspace, 13 nautical miles from Syria," Ahmet Davutoglu told TRT television.

"The plane did not show any sign of hostility toward Syria and was shot down about 15 minutes after having momentarily violated Syrian airspace," he said.

The minister said that there was no warning from Syria before it shot down the plane, which did not have arms and was flying on a training mission and undertaking a radar system test.

"The Syrians knew full well that it was a Turkish military plane and the nature of its mission," he said.

Syria has said it took out the F-4 phantom jet on Friday after it violated its airspace and on Saturday Turkey acknowledged that the plane may have done so in comments seen as a bid to cool tensions between the former allies.

In a statement issued after Syria confirmed it had downed the plane, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Turkey would take all necessary steps once it had established the facts.

NATO member Turkey has become a major critic of President Bashar al-Assad over his brutal crackdown on opposition protests and rebel groups.

Turkey has taken in more than 30,000 civilians who fled the violence in Syria, housing them in camps near the border, according to foreign ministry figures.

Earlier this month, it hosted a key meeting of Syrian opposition activists.

http://www.kwongwah..../06/24/100.html

[blueazure]

crazyinsane105, on 24 June 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

From what I make of it, the F-4E may have been attempting to collect info about Syrian troop movements or even possible weapons shipments at sea coming into Latakia. The Turks don't have the F-4 Wild Weasel version which is used exclusively for SEAD, so I don't think they would send in an unarmed F-4E to test Syrian air defense systems. Regardless, it seems that NATO does not have a whole lot of info about these new Russian made SAM systems, otherwise this incident could have been avoided.

it was an  RF -4E  recce phantom . most likely photo ops around tartus on behalf of NATO .  turkey could have sent SEAD F 16s but that would have been outright provocation .