68 replies to this topic

[GreenBeret]

Shehz, on 02 June 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

Under normal circumstances, if they weren't captured or placed on duty, they were to be sent to Burzukh right. Or the tasks are predetermined?

The souls/spirits which go to barzakh are the ones who as humans have done zikr of Allah so much that they have made their souls powerful in their lifetime and had control over their nafs.

when a human dies, a powerful soul is strong enough to fly towards barzakh. a weak soul remains in grave until someone like children offers koran, nafal for them, or some sadqa e jariah helps the soul becomes strong over some amount of time and then it makes to barzakh.

the weak souls in grave or the souls wandering about are also captured by BM's and used like jinns for BM.

the souls which get different type of tasks are strong souls which are near and dear to God. They maybe given duties in human world, or in barzakh or skies or any of the 18000 dimensions.  such duties keep on changing over the course of time.

[HKK]

Shehz, on 01 June 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

Heard of it only. I was actually questioning the " is well known", hence I asked where.
I believe in the Burzukh. Qabar ka azaab is heard only, by people here and there, who in-turn heard it here and there.

Jaza or Saza starts right after the people leave the deceased into his/her grave. Its a fact mentioned in many Hadess. just do some google.

I was disputing your idea of deep sleep.

[Felicius]

HKK, on 03 June 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

Jaza or Saza starts right after the people leave the deceased into his/her grave. Its a fact mentioned in many Hadess. just do some google.

I have, they aren't authenticated.
Hadees and Quran both speak of Burzukh as well, I'm inclined to follow this direction (since it has a touch of Quran).

HKK, on 03 June 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

I was disputing your idea of deep sleep.

Deep sleep in Burzukh is in the Quran, it's not my idea (or opinion).
Have you not read it, or even heard of it?

Edited by Shehz, 03 June 2012 - 02:11 PM.

[HKK]

Shehz, on 03 June 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

I have, they aren't authenticated.
Hadees and Quran both speak of Burzukh as well, I'm inclined to follow this direction (since it has a touch of Quran).



Deep sleep in Burzukh is in the Quran, it's not my idea (or opinion).
Have you not read it, or even heard of it?

I am not disputing barzukh, it is barhaq. But it seems you are not believer in Azab-e-qabar.



http://www.turntoisl...ead.php?t=12029




Now regarding ur question on Azaab-E-Khabar


1) The Qur’an speaks of the punishment of the grave in a most distinct fashion. “A fire to which they are exposed morning and evening. And the Day the Final Hour will occur, (it will be proclaimed): "Admit the Pharaohnites in the severest of torments.” (Surah Mu’min, verse 46)

In this Ayah, Allah specifies the manner in which Fir’oun and his people will be dealt with in their graves. They will be tormented in this way even before the day of Qiyamah, as understood from the Ayah. Allamah Ibne Katheer, while commenting on this very same verse explains that it is entirely in support of the view held by the Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama’ah that ‘Athab-ul-Qabar is an undeniable fact. This punishment will be unleashed upon the disbelievers and sinful believers in the second stage of life known as ‘Aalam-ul-Barzagh.

Ayesha (R.A.) reports that once a Jewish lady informed her that “We (the Jews) seek protection from the punishment of the grave.” On learning this Ayesha (R.A.) questioned the Nabi of Allah (S.A.W.) with regards to ‘Athab-ul-Qabar. Nabi (S.A.W.) firmly responded: “Yes, ‘Athab-ul-Qabar is true.” Ayesha (R.A.) says that thereafter Nabi (S.A.W.) always sought protection from the punishment of the grave on completing his prayers. (Mishkat, Page 25 with reference to Saheeh Bukhari and Muslim)

On one occasion the prophet of Allah (S.A.W.) passed by two graves. He thereafter remarked: “The inmates of these graves are subjected to punishment and they are being punished for acts which are not regarded as major. As for the first, he never used to purify himself after urinating. The second is being punished for engaging in gossip.”

(Sharhul Aqaaidin Nasafiyyah, Page 99-100, Sharhu ‘Aqeedatit Tahawiyah, Vol. 2, Page 132)


Question:

What are the sins for which people will be punished in the grave?.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.


In the answer to question no. 45325 , we have mentioned some of these reasons. Here we will list some of these sins, along with evidence from the Qur’aan and Sunnah.

Shirk (associating others with Allaah) and kufr (disbelieving in Him)

Allaah says concerning the people of Pharaoh (interpretation of the meaning):

“The Fire, they are exposed to it, morning and afternoon. And on the Day when the Hour will be established (it will be said to the angels): ‘Cause Fir‘awn’s (Pharaoh) people to enter the severest torment!’”
[Ghaafir 40:46]

And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And if you could but see when the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers) are in the agonies of death, while the angels are stretching forth their hands (saying): ‘Deliver your souls! This day you shall be recompensed with the torment of degradation because of what you used to utter against Allaah other than the truth. And you used to reject His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) with disrespect!’”
[al-An’aam 6:93]

When death approaches the kaafir, the angels tell him of what is awaiting of him of punishment, chains and fire, and the wrath of Allaah; his soul disperses in his body and refuses to leave his body, and the angels beat him until his soul comes out of his body, saying,

“Deliver your souls! This day you shall be recompensed with the torment of degradation” [al-An’aam 6:93].

Evidence that shirk is one of the causes of punishment in the grave is to be found in the hadeeth of Zayd ibn Thaabit (may Allaah be pleased with him) who said: When the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was in a garden belonging to Banu’l-Najjaar on a mule of his and we were with him, it stumbled and nearly threw him. There he saw some graves, six or five or four. He said: “Who knows the occupants of these graves?” A man said: I do.” He said: “When did these people die?” He said: “They died in shirk.” He said: “This ummah will be punished in their graves. Were it not that you would not bury one another, I would pray to Allaah to make you hear what I hear of the torment in the grave.” Then he turned to us and said: “Seek refuge with Allaah from the punishment of Hellfire…” Narrated by Muslim 2867.

The words in this hadeeth, “They died in shirk,” indicate that shirk is a cause of the punishment in the grave.

Hypocrisy is one of the causes of the punishment in the grave

The hypocrites are those who most deserve to be punished in the grave. How can it be otherwise when they are the ones who will occupy the lowest level of Hell?

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And among the bedouins around you, some are hypocrites, and so are some among the people of Al‑Madinah who persist in hypocrisy; you (O Muhammad) know them not, We know them. We shall punish them twice, and thereafter they shall be brought back to a great (horrible) torment”
[al-Tawbah 9:101]

Qataadah and al-Rabee’ ibn Anas said concerning the phrase “We shall punish them twice”: once in this world, and the second is the punishment in the grave.

In the hadeeth about the questioning of the two angels and the torment of the grave, the word hypocrite (munaafiq), or skeptic (murtaab) in many reports, is clearly mentioned, as in the report narrated by al-Bukhaari (1374) from Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him): “… as for the kaafir and the hypocrite, it will be said to him…”. And in al-Saheehayn it is narrated from Asma’ (may Allaah be pleased with her): “As for the hypocrite or the skeptic…”

Changing the religion of Allaah, by forbidding that which Allaah has permitted or permitting that which He has forbidden

The evidence that this changing of the religion of Allaah is one of the causes of punishment in the grave is the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “I saw ‘Amr ibn ‘Aamir al-Khuzaa’i dragging his intestines in Hell. He was the first one to introduce the institution of al-saa’ibah.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4623.

The saa’ibah was a she-camel, cow or sheep which they would leave to graze for the sake of the false gods, and it would not be ridden, eaten or used for carrying burdens. Some of them would make vows to make part of their wealth a saa’ibah.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: The Arabs, from among the sons of Ismaa’eel and others, who lived in the environs of the Ancient House that had been built by Ibraaheem and Ismaa’eel, were haneefs (monotheists) who followed the religion of Ibraaheem, until one of the leaders of Khuzaa’ah, namely ‘Amr ibn Luhayy, changed his religion. He was the first one to change the religion of Ibraaheem to shirk and forbid things that Allaah had not forbidden. Hence the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “I saw ‘Amr ibn Luhayy dragging his intestines.”
Daqaa’iq al-Tafseer, 2/71

Not taking care to avoid getting urine on oneself, and spreading malicious gossip among people

It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) passed by two graves and said, “They are being punished, but they are not being punished for something that was difficult to avoid. One of them used to walk about spreading nameemah (malicious gossip) and the other used not to take care to avoid getting urine on himself.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (218) and Muslim (292).

It was narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Most of the torment of the grave is because of urine, so be careful to avoid it.” Narrated by al-Daaraqutni and classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Targheeb (1/152).

Gheebah (backbiting)

Based on that, al-Bukhaari (may Allaah have mercy on him) included a chapter in Kitaab al-Janaa’iz (the Book of Funerals) called: “Punishment of the grave because of backbiting and urine.” Then he narrated therein the hadeeth about the two graves quoted above, except that the version of al-Bukhaari does not mention backbiting, rather it speaks of nameemah (malicious gossip), but as was his wont, he referred to what was narrated in some versions of the hadeeth: “As for the other, he is being punished for backbiting.”

Narrated by Ahmad (5/35); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Targheeb wa’l-Tarheeb (1/66)

Lying

According to the hadeeth of Samurah ibn Jundub (may Allaah be pleased with him), the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:
“… We came to a man who was lying flat on his back, with another man standing over him, holding an iron hook. He put the hook in the man's mouth and tore off that side of his face to the back (of his neck), and he tore his nose and his eye from front to back in a similar manner. Then he turned to the other side of the man's face and did likewise. No sooner had he finished the second side but the first side was restored to its former state, then he went back and did the same thing again. I said to my two companions, ‘Subhaan Allaah! Who are these two persons?’

At the end of the hadeeth, he said concerning this one who was being punished: “is the man who goes out of his house in the morning and tells a lie that is so serious that it spreads all over the world”. Narrated by al-Bukhaari (7074).

Forsaking the Qur’aan after having learned it, sleeping and missing an obligatory prayer

In the hadeeth of Samurah ibn Jundub he said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “… we came across a man who was lying down, with another man standing over him, holding a big rock. He threw the rock at the man's head, smashing it. The rock rolled away, and the one who had thrown it followed it, and picked it up. By the time he came back to the man, his head had been restored to its former state. Then he (the one who had thrown the rock) did the same as he had done before. I said to my two companions, ‘Subhaan Allaah! Who are these two persons?’ … ‘The one whom you saw with his head being smashed with the rock, is the man who studies the Qur’aan then he neither recites it nor acts upon it, and he goes to sleep, neglecting the obligatory prayers.’

According to another version: “As for the man whom you saw with his head being crushed by a rock, he is a man who learned the Qur’aan then abandoned it and he slept and missed the obligatory prayer.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (7076).

Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar (may Allaah have mercy on him) said that this report is clearer than the first one. The apparent meaning of the first one is that he is being punished for not reading Qur’aan at night, whereas the second report indicates that he is punished for sleeping and missing the obligatory prayer. He said: It may be that the punishment is for both, not reading and not acting upon it.

Ibn Hajar said: Ibn Hubayrah said: Abandoning the Qur’aan after learning it is a serious crime, because it may imply that he has seen in it something that made him abandon it, and because he has abandoned the noblest of things, namely the Qur’aan, he should be punished in the noblest part of his body, which is the head. Fath al-Baari, 3/251
Consuming riba

In the hadeeth of Samurah (may Allaah be pleased with him) it says:

“… So we went on and came to a river – I think he said, red like blood. – In the river there was a man swimming, and on the bank there was a man who had gathered many stones. Whilst the swimmer was swimming, the man who had gathered the stones approached him. The swimmer opened his mouth and the man on the bank threw a stone into it, then the swimmer carried on swimming. Each time he came back, he opened his mouth again, and the man on the bank threw another stone into his mouth. … The man you saw swimming in the river with rocks being thrown into his mouth is the one who consumed riba (usury).”

Zina (adultery, unlawful sexual relationships)

In the hadeeth of Samurah (may Allaah be pleased with him) it says:
“So we went on, and came to something like a tannoor (a kind of oven, lined with clay, usually used for baking bread). – I think the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, in that oven there was much noise and voices. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) added:

- We looked into it and saw naked men and women. A flame of fire was reaching them from underneath, and when it reached them, they cried out loudly. I asked them, ‘Who are these?’ … The naked men and women whom you saw in a structure that resembled an oven are the adulterers and adulteresses.”

Enjoining righteousness upon others and forgetting oneself

It was narrated that Anas ibn Maalik (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “On the night on which I was taken on the Night Journey (Isra’), I saw men whose lips were being cut off with scissors of fire. I said: ‘Who are these, O Jibreel?’ He said: ‘These are the khateebs from among your ummah who used to enjoin righteousness on the people and forget themselves, and they used to recite the Book but they did not understand.’” Narrated by Ahmad, 3/120; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Saheehah (291).

According to al-Bayhaqi: “On the night on which I was taken on the night Journey, I came to some people whose lips were being cut off with scissors of fire. Every time they were cut off, they were restored. I said: ‘O Jibreel who are these?’ He said: ‘The khateebs of your ummah who said what they did not do, and they recited the Book of Allaah but they did not act upon it.’” Narrated by al-Bayhaqi in Shu’ab al-Eemaan; classed as hasan by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’ (128).

Breaking the fast in Ramadaan with no excuse

It was narrated that Abu Umaamah al-Baahili (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say: “Whilst I was sleeping, two men came to me and took me by the arms, and they brought me to a mountain and said: ‘Climb up.’ I said: ‘I cannot.’ They said: ‘We will make it easy for you.’ So I climbed up until, when I was at the top of the mountain, I heard loud voices. I said: ‘What are these voices?’ He said: ‘These are the cries of the people of Hell.’ Then they took me on, and I saw some people hanging by their heels, with the sides of their mouths torn, and the sides of their mouths were flowing with blood. I said: ‘Who are these?’ He said: ‘They are the ones who broke the fast before it was permissible for them to do so.’” Narrated by Ibn Hibbaan and al-Haakim (1/210, 290); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Saheehah (3951).

Stealing from the war booty

This is indicated by the hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) about the man who stole a garment from the war booty, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “By the One in Whose hand is my soul, the garment that he took from the booty on the day of Khaybar when it had not yet been shared out is burning him with fire.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (4234) and Muslim (115).

Dragging one’s garment out of pride

This is indicated by the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Umar (may Allaah be pleased with him), according to which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whilst a man was dragging his garment out of pride, he was swallowed up by the earth and he will continue sinking into it until the Day of Resurrection.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari (3485) and Muslim (2088).

Stealing from the pilgrims

This is indicated by the hadeeth of Jaabir (may Allaah be pleased with him) about the eclipse prayer, in which it says that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Hell was brought and that is when you saw me moving backwards for fear that its flames might touch me. I saw therein the owner of the curved staff, dragging his intestines in the Fire; he used to steal from the pilgrims with his curved staff, and if he was discovered he would say, ‘It got caught on my curved staff,’ but if he was not noticed then he would take it.” Narrated by Muslim (904).

Detaining animals and tormenting them and not being compassionate towards them

According to the hadeeth of Jaabir about the eclipse prayer, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “And I saw therein the woman who had a cat which she tied up and did not feed, and she did not let it eat from the vermin of the earth, until it died of starvation.” Narrated by Muslim (904).

Al- Bayhaqi said in his book Ithbaat ‘Adhaab al-Qabr (p. 97):

When he offered the eclipse prayer, he saw the one who was dragging his intestines in Hell, and the one who was being punished for stealing, and the women who was being punished for a cat. They had become decayed bones in their graves as far as the people of his time were concerned, but those who were praying with him did not see what he saw. End quote.

Debt

One of the things that harm the deceased in his grave is debt that he owes. It was narrated that Sa’d ibn al-Atwal said: My brother died and left behind three hundred dinars, and he left behind young children. I wanted to spend on them, but the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to me: “Your brother is being detained by his debt, so go and pay it off.” So I went and paid it off, then I came and said: O Messenger of Allaah, I have paid it off for him, and there is nothing left but a woman who is claiming two dinars, but she does not have any proof. He said: “Give it to her, for she is telling the truth.” Narrated by Ahmad (16776) and Ibn Maajah (2/82); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’ (1550).

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05-07-2007, 02:57 PM    #3

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Jazaakillaah khayran for an excellent post. Here are some statements of the early scholars on the punishment of the grave.

This is the famous lengthy Bukhari hadeeth on the topic,
Upon the authority of al-Bara' ibn `Aazib who said: We went out with the the Prophet (salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam) to a burial of a man from the Ansar (original inhabitants of Madina) until we arrived at the grave, and he still had not been placed in the slot of the grave.

Then the Messenger of Allah (salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam) sat down and we sat around him. You would have thought that birds were upon our heads from our silence, and in the hand of the Messenger of Allah (salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam) was a stick which he was poking the ground with. [Then he started looking at the sky and looking at the earth and looking up down three times]. Then he said to us: "Ask Allah for refuge from the torment of the grave", he repeated this command two or three times. [Then he said O Allah I seek refuge in you from the torment of the grave][three times]. Then he said: "Verily, the believing servant, when leaving this life and journeying to the hereafter angels will descend upon him, their faces will be white as if they were suns, they will have with them a shroud (kafan) from the shroud of Paradise), and an embalmment (HanouT) from the embalmments of heaven. Then, they will sit within eye-shot of him.

Then the angel of death (peace be upon him) will come and sit at his head and will say "O you virtuous soul; come out to a forgiveness and a pleasure from your Lord ". So it will come out as a drop comes out of the mouth of a jug (with ease), then he will take it, not leaving it in his hand for longer that a blink of an eye until they (he and the other angels) have placed it in that shroud and that embalmment. And there will emanate from it a smell like that of the most sweet smelling musk on the face of the earth. Then they shall ascend with it, and they shall not pass with it by any group of angels but they will say: What is this good and sweet-smelling soul?. Then they shall say to them (he is) "such" the son of "such" choosing the best of the names he used to be called in this life. Until they reach the lowest sky, then they shall ask permission to enter, and they shall be granted entry, until they end at the seventh heaven sky, then Allah, exalted and high, shall say: "write the book of my servant in `illiyeen (1) [And what will expalin to you what Illiyeen is `illiyeen, there is a register fully inscribed to which bear witness those nearest to Allah (see 83:18)], and his book will be written in `illiyeen, and the shall be said "return him to the earth, for [I promised them] I have created them from it, and into it I shall return them, and from it I shall extract (resurrect) them a second time (20:55)". So [he is returned to earth and] his soul is returned to his body [he said and he will hear the footsteps of his friends who buried him when they leave him].

Then two [severe] angels shall come and [terrify him and] sit him up next to them and shall ask him: "Who is your Lord?". He shall reply "My Lord is Allah". Then they shall ask him: "What is your religion?". He shall answer them: "My religion is Islam". Then they shall ask him "Who is this man who was sent among you?". He will reply "He is the Messenger of Allah (salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam) peace be upon him". Then they shall ask him "What have you done?". He shall reply: "I read the book of Allah, then I believed in it and accepted it". [The angel will terrify him and ask him "who is your Lord?", "what is your religion?" "who is your prophet?", and this will be the last trial on earth for the believer, it is then when Allah says : "Allah will establish in strength those who believe with the word that stands firm in this world", so he will answer my Lord is Allah, my religion is Islam and my Prophet is Mohammad salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam. Then a caller will call from the sky: "My slave has spoken the truth, so spread out for him from the heaven, and clothe him from the heaven, and open a door for him from the heaven (within his grave)", so it's goodness and its smell will come unto him, then his grave will be expanded for him as far as he can see.

Then a man will come to him. His face will be handsome, and his clothes will be handsome, and his smell will be sweet. Then he shall say unto him: I bring you glade tidings of that which will make you happy [Rejoice with a pleasure of Allah and delights that endure]. This is the day that you were promised (46:16). Then he will say [and may Allah give you glad tiding] "who are you?, for your face is the face of someone who comes with good news". He shall reply: "I am your good deeds, [by Allah, I did not know of you but that you were quick to the obedience of Allah and slow to His desoobedience, so may Allah reward you good]". Then he shall say: "My Lord bring the hour so that I might return to my family and my wealth" [it will be said to him "be tranquil"].

He (Mohammed, salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: { And the disbelieving [transgressor/wicked] servant}, if he is leaving this life and journeying to the hereafter then angels will descend upon him, their faces will be black, they have with them a coarse woolen fabric (sackcloth)[ made of fire]. Then they will sit within eye-shot of him. Then the angel of death will come and sit at his head and will say "O you wicked soul; come out to a anger from your Lord and a fury (from Him)". So it will be distributed (spread out) throughout his body, then it will be ripped away as a skewer/spit is ripped out of damp cotton [and in its way out it will tear and cut the nerves and blood vessels] [and then he will be cursed by all the angels between the earth and the sky and by all the angels in the sky, and the gates of heaven are closed. There is no gate in the heaven but its people supplicate that the wicked soul shall not be ascended to their side], then he will take it (the soul), not leaving it in his hand for longer than a blink of an eye until they have placed it in that sackcloth. And there will emanate from it a stench like that of the most evil smelling corpse on the face of the earth. Then they shall ascend with it, and they shall not pass with it by a group of angels but they will say: What is this wicked soul?. Then they shall say to them (he is) "such" the son of "such" choosing the most hated of the names he used to be called in this life. Until they reach the lowest heaven(sky), then they shall ask permission to enter, and they shall not be granted entry. Then the Messenger of Allah (salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam) recited "The doors of the sky are not opened to them, nor shall they enter heaven until the camel passes through the eye of the needle" (7:40).

Then Allah, exalted and high, shall say: "write the book of my servant in Sijjeen (2)(83:7) in the lowest earth". [Then will be said "return my slave to the earth, for I promised them I have created them from it, and into it I shall return them, and from it I shall extract (resurrect) them a second time (20:55)"]. Then his soul shall be taken away [from the sky] with a mighty hurl [until it is cast into his body]. Then he (the Prophet salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam) read: "and those who associate partners with Allah, They are as one who falls from the sky then is snatched by the birds or is cast by the wind into a very low place (22:31)". Then his soul will be returned into his body, [he (the prophet) said : verily he will hear the footsteps of his friends who buried him when they leave him]. Then two harsh severe and fearsome angels shall come and [terrify him and] sit him up and shall ask him: "Who is your Lord?". He shall reply "Huh?, Huh (this is an expression of sorrow), I don't know". Then they shall ask him: "What is your religion?". He shall answer them: "Huh?, Huh?, I don't know". Then they shall ask him "Who is this man who was sent among you?". He will reply "Huh?, Huh?, I don't know [I heard people saying that!]". He (the Prophet salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said "And then will be said to him don't ever know and don't ever recite!"].

Then a caller will call from the sky: "My slave has spoken falsely, so spread out for him from the hell fire, and open a door for him from the hell fire (within his grave)", so its heat and hot wind will come unto him, then his grave will be contracted upon him until his limbs are caught up among one another. Then a man will come to him. His face will be ugly, and his clothes will be ugly, and his smell will be vile. Then he shall say unto him: I bring you tidings of that which will harm you. This is the day that you were promised (70:44). Then he will say [and you, may Allah give you bad tiding] "who are you?, for your face is the face of someone who comes with evil". He shall reply: "I am your evil deeds [by Allah, I did not know of you but that you were quick to the disobedience of Allah and slow to His obedience, so may Allah reward you bad, and then will be assigned to him a blind, deaf and mute person who holds in his hand a hammer, if a mountain is hit with it, it would disintegrate, and he will beat him with it until he becomes dust, and then Allah will render him to his initial form, and he will beat him again, and he (the wicked) will cry of sorrow and pain a cry that will be heard by all creatures except humans and jinn, and a door of hell will be opened unto him within his grave and will spread out for him sheets of hell fire]". Then he shall say: "My Lord do not bring the hour".

This hadith is narrated by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Abu Dawud, Ibn Majah, at-Tayalisi, and al-Hakim who said it is according to the standards of Bukhari and Muslim. This text is the text of Ahmad, all text between brackets is from the other narrators and other narrations of Ahmad.

Notes

(1) `illiyin: comes from the root word of `uluww which means highness. It is a place in the (highest) seventh sky where the souls of the believers are gathered (Ibn `Abbas), it also carries the meaning of a very high and wide place (Ibn Kathir).

(2) Sijjin: comes from the root word of sijn which means narrowness. It is a place in the (lowest) seventh earth where the souls of the unbelievers are gathered (Ibn `Abbas), it also carries the meaning of a very low and narrow (Ibn Kathir).

Reading the previous hadith one may think that the punishment of the grave is reserved only for those who did not believe in Allah or associated with him someone else in worship, lordship, creation or in his names and attributes. It is not the case! the following authentic hadith tells us more! so let us read it carefully : Ibn Abbas (Radiya Allahu `anhuma) says that the Messenger of Allah, salla Allahu alaihi wa sallam, once, while passing by two graves, remarked : The inmates of these two graves are being tortured not for any serious sins, but in fact they are serious sins. One of them used to carry tales [gosseping] (nameemah) and the other used not to yastatir (1) when urinating. [Bukhari and Muslim]

(1) yastatir means both not covering or hiding himself from the sights of others as well as not cleaning himself after urinating.

[HKK]

I cant recall exactly how it was said by Prophet (PBUH) but after the battle of badar, muslims threw the body of abu jahal and other kafirs in a pit. Prophet approached the pit and as if speaking to Abu Jahal, he said something along the lines "Did I not tell you". Sahabs asked the Prophet (PBUH) as to why he is talking to a dead man to which he replied that you dont see or hear what I see and hear.

[Caesar]

There is a lot of contradiction by some here because they have their eyes and minds closed off due to their narrow minded beliefs. The physical body is just a host to the spirit. When the physical body dies than the soul leaves. By saying that there is some sort of punishment in the grave is far from reality and not supported by ground realities. For punishment to occur on the human body the soul would have to come back into the body and the body functions re-started.

This is not supported by evidence which clearly suggests that the dead body decays and vanishes eventually.

So make up your minds because you can't have it both ways- you either die and your soul leaves the body OR it stays and the body gets reactivated inside the grave for your so called punishment.

[HKK]

^^ what kinda non-sense is that? are you not deliberetly trying to understand?

I have mentioned many times over, soul or spirit is immortal, body is not. Eternal punishment or pleasure is for the soul not for the body but it is the time that soul spend in the body will decide what will happen after soul departs the body, i.e death. Our souls, along with Adam (AS) were created by Allah on the same day. There has been some walis of Allah who were so high spiritually that they even remember who was standing right and left of them on the day of Ahad-e-Alast.

[Felicius]

Ceasar has a point though. If the soul isn't with the body, then it is not exactly Qabar ka Azaab, as the soul isn't in the qabar.
How do you differentiate the regular punishment (if any) than the punishment in the qabar (keeping in mind at what point the soul left or entered burzukh/burhaq)?

[Sanguine]

HKK, the long article you posted from turntoislam.com presents a very myopic view of hadith and I am certainly going to post the analysis of this ahdith sooner than later. As far as your argument for Surah Qadar goes, the rooh in Surah Qadar refers to Rooh ul Ameen or Gabriel (and you can find the name within brackets in many of the translations). Still, if I agree with this interpretation of yours, then that contradicts many other verses of Quran esp this one:

"Before them is a Partition till the Day they are raised up."
Al-Quran 23:100

The partition mentioned above is what we call Barzakh and will remain there till the day of resurrection.

[Sanguine]

What we get to know from Quran is that for every person, there are two lives. One is when your soul lives in your body in this world and the other one is when it will be again put into your body on Day of Judgment. Before the Day of Judgmenet, no soul can return to its body as Quran clearly mentions it. So till that day, all souls will remain in Barzakh. These souls, no mater good or evil, start getting the reward or punishment right there in Barzakh and this is actually what "azaab-e qabar" is. Thus azab is not given in these worldy graves where people are buried so that that the dead bodies can decay. Allah says in Quran in Suraba Abasa (verse 20 and 21) that He gives grave to every human so its the same grave (place) and this is indeed the grave which every soul gets in Barzakh. The rule goes for every person whether he is a sinner or a Prophet of Allah. Why many of us insist upon this notion of punishment in worldy graves is because many of us believe that Prophet (P.B.U.H) and many of the walis are alive in tehir graves and listen to our prayers etc and thsu form a waseela (Ma'azAllah). So if you say that soul cannot be returned to body, the whole myth dies down at that very moment. Btw since its a matter of dogma, it can be best explained with Quran which lays it down in simple words. If a hadith goes against Quranic verse, that cannot be hadith of Prophet (P.B.U.H), not to forget that I am talking about dogmas here which cannot be abrogated by any hadith(though I dont even believe in abrogation of Quran by Sunnah in any way).

[HKK]

Fatima47, on 08 June 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

HKK, the long article you posted from turntoislam.com presents a very myopic view of hadith and I am certainly going to post the analysis of this ahdith sooner than later. As far as your argument for Surah Qadar goes, the rooh in Surah Qadar refers to Rooh ul Ameen or Gabriel (and you can find the name within brackets in many of the translations). Still, if I agree with this interpretation of yours, then that contradicts many other verses of Quran esp this one:

"Before them is a Partition till the Day they are raised up."
Al-Quran 23:100

The partition mentioned above is what we call Barzakh and will remain there till the day of resurrection.

Original argument started when it was proposed the souls are in deep sleep in Burzukh. To which you agreed . I had my reservation on the basis of Azab or Jaza of Qabar. How one soul can be in deep sleep while tormented! You need to keep things in prespective.

I already know Roh-e-Ameen is Jibrael. But in this particular verse of Surah Qadar, Allah mentioned "Angels AND Rohs" desending on earth. Jibrael is an angel , hence belongs to the category of angels as oppose of Roh in this verse. Remember Allah mentioned them both, separately.

Azab-e-Qabar is a reality, I already mentioned what happned after Gazwa-e-badar with Prophet (PBUH) speaking to dead Abu Jahal.

What is burzakh, where is it, is grave part of burzakh or a window to it, will the souls be realesed from the burzakh via their graves on the day of judgement? No living will ever know. Though I am 90% convenced that souls are not in deep sleep after they are separated from the body, i.e death.

Though off topic, ever wondered why the devil always ask for soul not for the body.

[HKK]

On a separate note, does anyone knows where souls are kept before they are send to earth, i.e the first heart beat in mother's womb?

[Felicius]

^ Nope I don't, would love to find out, but the topic is now shifting away from Jinns to Life after Death.
Open another topic for that, and I will move the relevant posts about life after death from here to that Topic.

Thanks!

[Sanguine]

I have created this separate topic where we can talk about life after death, barzakh etc.

PS: Shehz kindly move the relevant posts.

[Sanguine]

HKK, on 03 June 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

I cant recall exactly how it was said by Prophet (PBUH) but after the battle of badar, muslims threw the body of abu jahal and other kafirs in a pit. Prophet approached the pit and as if speaking to Abu Jahal, he said something along the lines "Did I not tell you". Sahabs asked the Prophet (PBUH) as to why he is talking to a dead man to which he replied that you dont see or hear what I see and hear.

I missed this post of yours. You are talking about this hadith of Prophet (P.B.U.H) which is mentioned in Sahih Bukhari.

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 452 : Narrated by Ibn 'Umar
The Prophet looked at the people of the well (the well in which the bodies of the pagans killed in the Battle of Badr were thrown) and said, "Have you found true what your Lord promised you?" Somebody said to him, "You are addressing dead people." He replied, "You do not hear better than they but they cannot reply."

But then there is also another hadith found in Sahih Bukhari.

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 317 : Narrated by Ibn Umar
The Prophet stood at the well of Badr (which contained the corpses of the pagans) and said, "Have you found true what your lord promised you?" Then he further said, "They now hear what I say." This was mentioned before 'Aisha and she said, "But the Prophet said, 'Now they know very well that what I used to tell them was the truth.' Then she recited (the Holy Verse):-- "You cannot make the dead hear... till the end of Verse)." (30.52)

HKK, on 08 June 2012 - 11:21 AM, said:

Original argument started when it was proposed the souls are in deep sleep in Burzukh. To which you agreed . I had my reservation on the basis of Azab or Jaza of Qabar. How one soul can be in deep sleep while tormented! You need to keep things in prespective.

I was absolutely wrong to the extent that they are sleeping in Barzakh. I had basically agreed with the spirits living in Barzakh, didnt have time to post an explanation nor did I know that this would lead to another discussion. Now that it has, I have admitted that I was wrong.  

Quote

I already know Roh-e-Ameen is Jibrael. But in this particular verse of Surah Qadar, Allah mentioned "Angels AND Rohs" desending on earth. Jibrael is an angel , hence belongs to the category of angels as oppose of Roh in this verse. Remember Allah mentioned them both, separately.

There is a difference between Roohs (plural) and Ar-ruh (singular). Quran mentions Ar-ruh and not Roohs. The Al in Arabic is similar to "the" used in English and is used to denote a unique feature. So the translation shoudl be "the spirit" and not spirits. So knowing Allah sends angels and the spirit, which special spirit is it? This is what you find in Tafsir Ibn Kathir when you read explanation of this verse:

"(Therein descend the angels and the Ruh by their Lord's permission with every matter.) meaning, the angels descend in abundance during the Night of Al-Qadr due to its abundant blessings. The angels descend with the descending of blessings and mercy, just as they descend when the Qur'an is recited, they surround the circles of Dhikr (remembrance of Allah) and they lower their wings with true respect for the student of knowledge. In reference to Ar-Ruh, it is said that here it means the angel Jibril. Therefore, the wording of the Ayah is a method of adding the name of the distinct object (in this case Jibril) separate from the general group (in this case the angels)"

Again, we cannot see things in isolation. If we interpret this verse in terms of human spirits that are sent back to earth then thats a clear contradiction of Quranic verses where Allahs says it time and again that spirits will not be returned to bodies before day of judgment.

Quote

Azab-e-Qabar is a reality, I already mentioned what happned after Gazwa-e-badar with Prophet (PBUH) speaking to dead Abu Jahal.

I am not denying azab-e qabar but my simple point is that there is no life in these earthly graves. Your azab or reward starts right there in Barzakh as soon as your soul leaves your body. You can simply call azab-e qabar as azab-e barzakh for sake of simplicity. I have already mentioned what Ayesha (R.A) said about this hadith. Plus, Ahadith are always subordinate to Quran. A hadith forming dogmas and contradicting Quran cannot be relied on.

Hisham b. 'Urwa narrated on the authority of his father that the saying of Ibn 'Umar, viz. "The dead would be punished because of the lamentation of his family over him" was mentioned to 'Aisha. Upon this she said: May Allah have mercy upon Abu 'Abd al-Rahman (the kunya of Ibn 'Umar) that he heard something but could not retain it (well). (The fact is) that the bier of a Jew passed before the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and (the members of his family) were waiting over him. Upon this he said: You are wailing and he is being punished. Sahih Muslim, Book 004, Hadith 2026.

The question arises, if the person was not buried then which punishment was Prophet (P.B.U.H) talking about?

Quote

What is burzakh, where is it, is grave part of burzakh or a window to it, will the souls be realesed from the burzakh via their graves on the day of judgement? No living will ever know. Though I am 90% convenced that souls are not in deep sleep after they are separated from the body, i.e death.

Barzakh is the place where souls, after they leave this world, will remain till Day of Judgment. The dead bodies in grave will decay and all humans will be created once again from the tailbone  on Qayamah and  souls will be put back into these bodies.

The Prophet said, "Between the two blowing of the trumpet there will be forty." The people said, "O Abu Huraira! Forty days?" I refused to reply. They said, "Forty years?" I refused to reply and added: Everything of the human body will decay except the coccyx bone (of the tail) and from that bone Allah will reconstruct the whole body.
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Hadith 338

Quote

Though off topic, ever wondered why the devil always ask for soul not for the body.

No. I haven’t read Frankenstein yet.

HKK, on 08 June 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

On a separate note, does anyone knows where souls are kept before they are send to earth, i.e the first heart beat in mother's womb?

Never thought over it, though would like to know.

[Pak_Afaz]

For beginners: Barzakh is one of the 4 stages of a souls journey. 1st you have the womb where the soul comes into existence. Then you have life where a soul is given a chance to prove itself. After that comes the state of barzakh where the soul rest until the day of resurection when it will be awakened and sent to its final desrination by Allah (SWT).

[HKK]

Pak_Afaz, on 09 June 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

For beginners: Barzakh is one of the 4 stages of a souls journey. 1st you have the womb where the soul comes into existence. Then you have life where a soul is given a chance to prove itself. After that comes the state of barzakh where the soul rest until the day of resurection when it will be awakened and sent to its final desrination by Allah (SWT).

Just one correction. Souls are already there. From Adam (AS) to the last of human born before the judgement day, our souls were created by Allah on the same day, and we all took pledge/shahadat to him the All mighty. Souls are made of light(Noor) and if I am not mistaken, Allah created souls from his own Noor. Perhaps the reason why we got different attributes of Allah within our nature, e.g compassion, anger, jealousy, arrogance, etc.

[Jazba-e-Kashmir]

Try this website:

http://zawiyah.org/

(Tareeqah Muhammadiyah)

it has some info regarding the issue.

Peace

[Sanguine]

HKK, on 09 June 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

Just one correction. Souls are already there. From Adam (AS) to the last of human born before the judgement day, our souls were created by Allah on the same day, and we all took pledge/shahadat to him the All mighty. Souls are made of light(Noor) and if I am not mistaken, Allah created souls from his own Noor. Perhaps the reason why we got different attributes of Allah within our nature, e.g compassion, anger, jealousy, arrogance, etc.

Neither Allah is noor nor did He create any human (including prophets) from noor. Noor is itself a creation of Allah. Allah does use this example to describe Himself in Quran but at the same time tells human not to concoct examples to explain His personality (Surah Al Nahl). So Allah is  ineffable or indescribable as per Quran. As far as creation of humans is concerned, Allah says in Quran:

He began the creation of man with (nothing more than) clay,  And made his progeny from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised.
Al Quran 32: 7, 8

Quran tells about how Allah created man every now and then. It would be unjust and certainly wrong to overlook all these verses and rely on Daif traditions (e.g the one narrated from Jabir) which tell us how Allah created Prophet's (P.B.U.H) noor and then how this noor shifted to other individuals.

[Pakistan First]

Where does our Soul go after our last breath on earth ....... Barzakh (based on the above).

So, what is Barzakh? How is it like? What'll happen there?

[Felicius]

Pak_Afaz, on 09 June 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

For beginners: Barzakh is .......... where the soul rest until the day of resurection when it will be awakened and sent to its final destination.

Try and convince HKK, the rest of us already know about it.

Pakistan First, on 10 June 2012 - 01:47 AM, said:

So, what is Barzakh? How is it like? What'll happen there?

Your soul goes in to a sleep until the day of the judgement.

Edited by Shehz, 10 June 2012 - 06:50 AM.

[Jazba-e-Kashmir]

Maano ya na maano: - a person who takes care of a graveyard experiences strange things
http://www.zemtv.com...-9th-june-2012/

Peace

[Sanguine]

Shehz, on 10 June 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

Your soul goes in to a sleep until the day of the judgement.

Shehz, where did you find it?

[Felicius]

Fatima47, on 10 June 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

Shehz, where did you find it?

I took Islamic Studies as an elective in Uni.
I though I will fly, turned out to be a nightmare of a course, struggled to pass.

The same is in the Quran as well.

Edited by Shehz, 10 June 2012 - 10:48 AM.

[Sanguine]

Shehz, on 10 June 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

I took Islamic Studies as an elective in Uni.
I though I will fly, turned out to be a nightmare of a course, struggled to pass.

The same is in the Quran as well.

The trumpet shall be sounded, when behold! from the sepulchers (men) will rush forth to their Lord!
They will say:
"Ah! woe unto us! Who hath raised us up from our beds of repose?...
(A voice will say:)
"This is what (Allah) Most Gracious had promised, and true was the word of the messengers!"
Al Quran (36: 51,52)


Let me know if you are talking about any other verse.

[HKK]

Fatima47, on 10 June 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

Neither Allah is noor nor did He create any human (including prophets) from noor. Noor is itself a creation of Allah. Allah does use this example to describe Himself in Quran but at the same time tells human not to concoct examples to explain His personality (Surah Al Nahl). So Allah is  ineffable or indescribable as per Quran. As far as creation of humans is concerned, Allah says in Quran:

He began the creation of man with (nothing more than) clay,  And made his progeny from a quintessence of the nature of a fluid despised.
Al Quran 32: 7, 8

Quran tells about how Allah created man every now and then. It would be unjust and certainly wrong to overlook all these verses and rely on Daif traditions (e.g the one narrated from Jabir) which tell us how Allah created Prophet's (P.B.U.H) noor and then how this noor shifted to other individuals.

Lady dont jump to conclusion. Try to understand what I said. I am talking about our souls/spirits not us in flesh and bones. are souls made up of clay and sperm?

The most significant covenant that each of us is bound by is the oath we took on Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) when He asked, “alasta bi rabbikum? (Am I not your Lord?)” All our souls at that time gave witness that Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) was our Creator and Lord. We unconditionally bore witness that He was the One worthy of worship and obedience.

When we come into our earthly existence this covenant (ahd-e-alast) is in our sub-conscience and it gives us the ability to recognize the uncorrupted religion that is from Allah.


(Quranic Surah 7:172)

Translation: “AND WHENEVER thy Sustainer brought forth their offspring from the loins of the children of Adam, He [thus] called upon them to bear witness about themselves: “Am I not your Sustainer?” – to which they answered: “Yea, indeed, we do bear witness thereto!” [Of this We remind you,] lest you say on the Day of Resurrection, “Verily, we were unaware of this”.


The above Quranic Verse depicts the event when Almighty Allah(SWT) created all souls from Adam to the last man to come on this earth till the end of this universe. After creating all souls, Almighty Allah(SWT) gathered them in a wide field to take witness as to whether He is their Sustainer. All souls replied that of course You (Allah) are our Sustainer. Almighty Allah(SWT) needed this witness from all Souls so that on the day of Resurrection they should not say that they were unaware of the reality that only Almighty Allah(SWT) was their Sustainer. On this occasion, Almighty Allah(SWT) also asked wishes of all souls. This mystery is well ordained in Surah Fateha in Holy Quran.

[HKK]

Shehz, on 08 June 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

^ Nope I don't, would love to find out, but the topic is now shifting away from Jinns to Life after Death.
Open another topic for that, and I will move the relevant posts about life after death from here to that Topic.

Thanks!

Found it.

Its called aalam e arwah.


http://aalamearwah.wordpress.com/


Kinda explain why Prophets are choosen ones and the rest of us are who we are.

So the Journey is aalam e arwah --> Earth --> aalam e Barzakh --> eternity in heaven or hell


In nutshell, my , yours,all of us, our Souls are as old as of Adam (AS).

In greater scheme of things, our bodies are insignificant but mere tools for our souls to choose the right or wrong path to final destination. Yet some are thinking of becoming gods themselves. Fools. you know who you are.

[HKK]

HKK, on 10 June 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

Lady dont jump to conclusion. Try to understand what I said. I am talking about our souls/spirits not us in flesh and bones. are souls made up of clay and sperm?

The most significant covenant that each of us is bound by is the oath we took on Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) when He asked, “alasta bi rabbikum? (Am I not your Lord?)” All our souls at that time gave witness that Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) was our Creator and Lord. We unconditionally bore witness that He was the One worthy of worship and obedience.

When we come into our earthly existence this covenant (ahd-e-alast) is in our sub-conscience and it gives us the ability to recognize the uncorrupted religion that is from Allah.


(Quranic Surah 7:172)

Translation: “AND WHENEVER thy Sustainer brought forth their offspring from the loins of the children of Adam, He [thus] called upon them to bear witness about themselves: “Am I not your Sustainer?” – to which they answered: “Yea, indeed, we do bear witness thereto!” [Of this We remind you,] lest you say on the Day of Resurrection, “Verily, we were unaware of this”.


The above Quranic Verse depicts the event when Almighty Allah(SWT) created all souls from Adam to the last man to come on this earth till the end of this universe. After creating all souls, Almighty Allah(SWT) gathered them in a wide field to take witness as to whether He is their Sustainer. All souls replied that of course You (Allah) are our Sustainer. Almighty Allah(SWT) needed this witness from all Souls so that on the day of Resurrection they should not say that they were unaware of the reality that only Almighty Allah(SWT) was their Sustainer. On this occasion, Almighty Allah(SWT) also asked wishes of all souls. This mystery is well ordained in Surah Fateha in Holy Quran.

I dont tend to quote on my own previous postings but just had a flash which i thought is worth sharing. So there are two gatherings of mankind, one has already happened just after our beginning, buried deep in our sub-conscience and the other one will be Mehshar in Arafat. Seems like both are interlinked.

[Sanguine]

HKK, on 10 June 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

Lady dont jump to conclusion. Try to understand what I said. I am talking about our souls/spirits not us in flesh and bones. are souls made up of clay and sperm?

The most significant covenant that each of us is bound by is the oath we took on Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) when He asked, “alasta bi rabbikum? (Am I not your Lord?)” All our souls at that time gave witness that Allah (subhana wa ta’ala) was our Creator and Lord. We unconditionally bore witness that He was the One worthy of worship and obedience.

When we come into our earthly existence this covenant (ahd-e-alast) is in our sub-conscience and it gives us the ability to recognize the uncorrupted religion that is from Allah.


(Quranic Surah 7:172)

Translation: “AND WHENEVER thy Sustainer brought forth their offspring from the loins of the children of Adam, He [thus] called upon them to bear witness about themselves: “Am I not your Sustainer?” – to which they answered: “Yea, indeed, we do bear witness thereto!” [Of this We remind you,] lest you say on the Day of Resurrection, “Verily, we were unaware of this”.


The above Quranic Verse depicts the event when Almighty Allah(SWT) created all souls from Adam to the last man to come on this earth till the end of this universe. After creating all souls, Almighty Allah(SWT) gathered them in a wide field to take witness as to whether He is their Sustainer. All souls replied that of course You (Allah) are our Sustainer. Almighty Allah(SWT) needed this witness from all Souls so that on the day of Resurrection they should not say that they were unaware of the reality that only Almighty Allah(SWT) was their Sustainer. On this occasion, Almighty Allah(SWT) also asked wishes of all souls. This mystery is well ordained in Surah Fateha in Holy Quran.

Thats very misleading to say the least. Does this verse explain to you that souls were created from noor (esp Allah's noor)? Allah repeatedly tells how he fashioned human bodies but where does He tell in Quran that he made souls from noor? Yes, there are couple of traditions which state how all creations were created from noor but then their authenticity is highly doubtful. There are things about which we have been granted very limited knowledge and rooh or spirit is one of those things.

"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration).Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"
Al Quran 17:85

[HKK]

Fatima47, on 13 June 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

Thats very misleading to say the least. Does this verse explain to you that souls were created from noor (esp Allah's noor)? Allah repeatedly tells how he fashioned human bodies but where does He tell in Quran that he made souls from noor? Yes, there are couple of traditions which state how all creations were created from noor but then their authenticity is highly doubtful. There are things about which we have been granted very limited knowledge and rooh or spirit is one of those things.

"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration).Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"
Al Quran 17:85

If you cant differentiate between body and soul and cant comprehend the concept of "ahd-e-alast", its pointless to get into debate about this matter.

[platinum786]

LOL @ the suggestion that he who created the soul cannot punish it. without a body

[HKK]

Fatima47, on 13 June 2012 - 01:52 AM, said:

Thats very misleading to say the least. Does this verse explain to you that souls were created from noor (esp Allah's noor)? Allah repeatedly tells how he fashioned human bodies but where does He tell in Quran that he made souls from noor? Yes, there are couple of traditions which state how all creations were created from noor but then their authenticity is highly doubtful. There are things about which we have been granted very limited knowledge and rooh or spirit is one of those things.

"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration).Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)"
Al Quran 17:85

And when thy Lord said to the angels, 'See, I am creating a mortal of a clay of mud moulded. When I have shaped him, and breathed My spirit (roohee) in him, fall you down, bowing before him! S. 15:28-29

[HKK]

Some other considerations:

a) How long body last? 60, 70 , perhaps 100 years. Souls are there since the day Allah (SWT) decided to create the humanity, all at the same time, all along with the soul of Adam (AS).
b) There is a split on the subject Meraj of Prophet (PBUH) between ullema with some of the idea that it was actually the soul/spirit of the Prophet (PBUH) which went to the Arsh-e-Moalla (Throne of Allah the Almighty). Before the journey Jibrael-e-Ameen did a surgery on prophet's (PBUH) heart, suggesting that his soul was seperated from the body for the journey to other dimensions.
c) Souls are immortal, not the body. The pleasure of Heaven or torment of hell are also for eternity. Do the maths. Perhaps creations which are from Allah himself can acquire that attribute of immortality.
d) we the mankind are allowed to cross that red line "spiritually" whenever we want, where the most power spiritual creation of Allah, Jibrael-e-amin wouldnt dare cross. i.e through the Salah five times a day. Salah is our Meraj. Perhaps only the creation which is from Allah (SWT) can bear/allowed this privilage. Though I am not sure if the same goes of muslim Jins.
d) Allah created mankind as "Ashraf-ul-Makhloqat" (the best of creation). And same human body is also mentioned as the one created from clay and "impure" liquid (Semen) and yet Allah (SWT) ask the angels to bow before Adam (AS). Bowing is for the Allah , so there must be something within human which is from the Lord himself. Remeber Allah asked the angels to bow before Adam (AS), after he joined his Rooh with the body, not before that.
e) Amount of rubbish and open defiance of Allah , we humans commits and get away with it is not allowed to any other creation of Allah. Head of Jins, Ibless (Satan) didnt commit shirk rather disobeyed Allah (SWT) for not bowing before Adam, and got the all mighty kick there and then from heaven and humiliated for eternity. Yet how many humans have commited open shirk and all sorts of rubbish through out their worldly life and get away with it, with Allah given them all the chance to repent and come back to him. Allah love humans, according to some riwayats, 70 times more then a mother would love her child. All these privilages are not without a reason.

[HKK]

Salman Al-Farisi and Ibn `Abbas mentioned the story of Adam, when he wanted to get up before his soul reached his feet. When his soul was breathed into him, it entered his body from his head downwards. When it reached his brain he sneezed, and said, "Al-Hamdu Lillah'' (praise be to Allah), and Allah said, "May your Lord have mercy on you, O Adam.'' When it reached his eyes, he opened them, and when it reached his body and limbs he started to stare at them in wonder. He wanted to get up before it reached his feet, but he could not. He said, "O Lord, make it happen before night comes.''

[hifi]

Interesting debate.
I have one question.
When the Trumpet is sounded, everything will come to an end. Even Angel Jibril and Malik ul maut. Then Allah(s.w.t) will create everything again, and raise everyone back from the dead. Does this mean that the souls will come to an end and then be brought back to life, seperate from the bodies ?

[HKK]

^^ My understanding is that souls are immortal. They are kept in aalam e arwah before their transfusion into the body and then taken to aalam-e-barzakh and kept their till the summoning by Allah the All mighty on Mahshar in Arafat.

Only Allah knows best.

[Sanguine]

HKK, on 13 June 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

And when thy Lord said to the angels, 'See, I am creating a mortal of a clay of mud moulded. When I have shaped him, and breathed My spirit (roohee) in him, fall you down, bowing before him! S. 15:28-29

You find a similar reference to "His spirit" in verse no 8 or 9 of Surah As Sajda but if you read the tafseer, you'll get to know that the reference is towards soul that Allah created and not Allah's soul. I am kinda short of time so cant copy paste it here but you can search Tafsir Ibn Kathir or Tafheem ul Quran (since they are easily available online) and you''ll have an idea what "My spirit" means. To my understanding, its certainly not spirit made of Allah's noor since Allah Himself is not noor.

[Sanguine]

hifi, on 22 June 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

Interesting debate.
I have one question.
When the Trumpet is sounded, everything will come to an end. Even Angel Jibril and Malik ul maut. Then Allah(s.w.t) will create everything again, and raise everyone back from the dead. Does this mean that the souls will come to an end and then be brought back to life, seperate from the bodies ?

To my understanding, after death, souls are rewarded or punished in Barzakh. I have quoted a verse from Surah Yaseen in one of my posts and if you read tasfeer (e.g Tafsir Ibn Kathir) then you'll find out that scholars have agreed with the notion of azab-e qabar (azab-e barzakh to me) but they believe that all souls will come to and end before qiyamah and then will be brought back to life. I might be wrong though, surely Allah knows the best. Btw I am going to look for tafsir of these verses in Bukhari Kitab ul Tafseer inshaAllah.

[HKK]

Fatima47, on 26 June 2012 - 09:25 AM, said:

You find a similar reference to "His spirit" in verse no 8 or 9 of Surah As Sajda but if you read the tafseer, you'll get to know that the reference is towards soul that Allah created and not Allah's soul. I am kinda short of time so cant copy paste it here but you can search Tafsir Ibn Kathir or Tafheem ul Quran (since they are easily available online) and you''ll have an idea what "My spirit" means. To my understanding, its certainly not spirit made of Allah's noor since Allah Himself is not noor.

First and foremost, Noor or light is "one" of the attributes of the Almight (SWT), and to say that Allah is just merely noor is highly misleading if that what you understood or persisting on. So why it is so hard to understand that from "one" of his attribute Allah (SWT) may have created the souls? I cannot recall the exact saying of Prophet (PBUH) but someone asked him after his journey to Arsh-e-Molla (Miraj) about how Allah (SWT) is like. His reply was something along the lines that how can I see him, he is all Noor. Which implies that Although the prophet (PBUH), didnt see the Lord the almighty but he did experience his Noor. And ofcourse we all know that when Musa (AS) kept on insisting to meet Allah in person, he end up fainted with intense light (noor) on Koh-e-tur.

With regards to tafseer, people have differnt interpretations but it is better to discuss those interpretation with proper background and logic to support the claim. What would be the translation of "Min Rohee" from arabic to english or urdu? Why would the Allah who himself has said that he is a jealous god and bowing is for him and him only, would command one of his creation Angels to bow infront of another creation , the human? Remember the verse use the word "Bashar".

I have my reasons to beleive that Allah created human souls from his own noor (let me reiterate , noor is one of Allah's attribute). I believe there are reasons for things as they are , and for humans to be the best of creation of Allah (SWT), and for the angels to bow infront of Adam, it all happen for some reasons. It make me look upon humanity , muslim or non-muslim in different way without the physical appreance (black/white/brown or whatever).

Infact I will go as far as saying that there are deeper meaning when we say "To Allah we belong and unto Him is our return" upon hearing a muslim passing over.


Only Allah knows best.

[hifi]

@HKK
Thats some explanation. But think about this, Dont the christians say the same, "that God created mankind in His image" ?
What about the hindus, they have idols which are just as human as possible ? Maybe its the shaitan misleading these people or maybe Allah(s.w.t) dosent want us to make the same mistake and thus didnt associate himself in anyways with us.

There is a danger in bringing connecting Allah(s.w.t) to us in such a way. If the souls are from Allah(s.w.t), then is it the soul that errs or the body ? If soul errs, then is it imperfect ? how can a imperfect thing come from a perfect thing ? May Allah(s.w.t) Guide us.
Is this gift only bestowed to us or the rest of creation ? What about jinns ? what about the angels ?

Maybe the meaning of that verse is to be taken in a way that Allah(s.w.t) described "my rooh" as his property and not his own. Who is to say He has or Has not a rooh ? Rem the verse of surah Ikhlas "Wa Lam ya Kullaho Kufwan Ahad" "And there is none like Him".

Back to the topic. If the Barzakh thing is real, then why would we be raised up from our graves, why dosent the Quran say that we will come from barzakh. Does that mean Our souls will be transfered back to our graves after recreation of the universe and then we will be raised up ?