30 replies to this topic

[gulmarg]

Taking advantage of the improved climate between the two countries, Pakistan Broadcasting Corporation (PBC) has requested All India Radio (AIR) for a copy of founding father Mohammad Ali Jinnah's August 11, 1947, speech in which he said “religion or caste or creed… has nothing to do with the business of the State''.

Director-General of PBC Murtaza Solangi wrote to his AIR counterpart last week after verbal requests to various functionaries of the Government of India including Lok Sabha Speaker Meira Kumar yielded no results. Last week, he requested Pakistan's High Commissioner in India Shahid Malik to take up the matter with AIR and has since been told the request would be looked into.

Mr. Solangi told The Hindu that if a copy of the speech of utmost importance to Pakistan was given to PBC, due acknowledgement would be given to AIR and a ceremony would be organised to celebrate the handing over.

This is one recording of Jinnah's that PBC does not have; primarily because it was done by a team sent from Delhi just ahead of Partition. At the time of Partition, what was to become Pakistan had three AIR stations: one each in Lahore, Peshawar and Dhaka. However, the Lahore and Peshawar stations were Class B stations without recording facilities. As a result, AIR sent a team from Delhi to record the August 11 address of Jinnah to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan in Karachi after his election as its first President.

The speech is of great significance to Pakistan as it battles to reclaim the nation that Jinnah had envisaged. In fact, according to historian Mubarak Ali, the speech was censored because it caused great discomfort within the Muslim League and the bureaucracy. A serious attempt was made to censor the speech before it was published in newspapers. After Jinnah's death, the direction given in that speech was replaced with the Objectives Resolution that laid the foundations of an Islamic state.

Subsequently also, various attempts have been made to black out the speech. Former Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto claimed that attempts were made to burn the speech and a concerted effort was made during the regime of military dictator Zia-ul Haq to remove all reference to that historic address from textbooks. Given the circumstances, securing a copy of the speech is more than just a case of getting access to a recording of archival importance to Pakistan.

http://www.thehindu....e?homepage=true

[complicated]

How can Pakistan be secular when it was founded in the name of Islam? Anyways whatever Jinnah said wont change a thing. Pakistan is and should be ruled by Islamic laws.

[Caesar]

complicated, on 04 June 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

How can Pakistan be secular when it was founded in the name of Islam? Anyways whatever Jinnah said wont change a thing. Pakistan is and should be ruled by Islamic laws.

Why is that? The founding father was clearly secular; illiterate mullahs have no business in turning this nation into a mullah state. The people then CLEAR KNEW WHO JINNAH WAS AND THEY SUPPORTED HIM. It was only after the death of this great man that Illiterates took over and turned this nation into a nation of beggars stuck in the past.

As soon as Radio Pakistan receives this speech it should play a million times to ensure every dick and harry understands this.

[platinum786]

Those who wish to ignore the Islamic ideology behind Pakistan will do so against mountains of evidence.

002:18 - Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).(Holy Quran)

Regardless, Muhammad Ali Jinnah passed away in 1948, Today is 2012, we succeed him, we are the Pakistani's, Pakistan will be what WE want it to be. Nations evolve, this is our evolution, from a state setup for the Muslims of what was then India, to an Islamic state.

Edited by platinum786, 04 June 2012 - 04:55 AM.

[Skull-Buster]

Religion or caste or creed of a person has nothing to do with the state.

How does that sentence make anyone secular? The Quran says the same thing, to you your religion and to us ours. Freedom of religion and worship is a part of Islamic Sharia. Quaid-e-Azam was simply saying what Islamic Sharia tells us.

[Caesar]

People who deviate from the founding principles of their establishment are doomed. History has ample examples of this. Out of so many millions and millions of people why was it Jinnah who created this country??? Because he was the ONE WITH THE VISION, WITH THE GIFT TO CREATE A NEW NATION.

And soon as this great man died the whole country was buldozed over and given an intolerant path.

Today this country is on the verge on breakdown. Its institutions are corrupt, its leaders are corrupt, its people are corrupt. There is no dignity, no honour, no bravery left anymore.

And you call it a success??? I hope God can help you and open your eyes to the reality rather than this dream world you live in.

[1Pakistani]

Caesar, on 04 June 2012 - 05:24 AM, said:

People who deviate from the founding principles of their establishment are doomed. History has ample examples of this. Out of so many millions and millions of people why was it Jinnah who created this country??? Because he was the ONE WITH THE VISION, WITH THE GIFT TO CREATE A NEW NATION.

And soon as this great man died the whole country was buldozed over and given an intolerant path.

Today this country is on the verge on breakdown. Its institutions are corrupt, its leaders are corrupt, its people are corrupt. There is no dignity, no honour, no bravery left anymore.

And you call it a success??? I hope God can help you and open your eyes to the reality rather than this dream world you live in.

Thats just a joke my friend. There are other 10s of quotes by Jinnah which point toward it being an Islamic state where people of other religion having the freedom to practice their religion. In essence it is stupid if you ask for Muslim homeland based on foreign principle (secularism) as that would int itself defeat the whole purpose of wanting this new Muslim Homeland.

As for what Jinnah wanted it pointless as for us Muslims our identity starts from Prophet Mohammad (SAW) and it ends with him and we are to follow his footstep. However, Jinnah himself wanted to have Islamic state and it can be seen from my own signature which is quoting his stance on this issue and let me repeat that here for your consideration:

Quote

"If we take our inspiration and guidance from the Holy Qur’an, the final victory, I once again say, will be ours… Do not be overwhelmed by the enormity of the task… You only have to develop the spirit of the Mujahids. You are a nation whose history is replete with people of wonderful character and heroism. Live up to your traditions and add to another chapter of glory. All I require of you now is that everyone… must vow to himself and be prepared to sacrifice his all… in building up Pakistan as a bulwark of Islam and as one of the greatest nations whose ideal is peace within and peace without… Islam enjoins on every Mussulman to give protection to his neighbors and to minorities regardless of caste and creed. "Muhammad Ali Jinnah

how do you take guidance from Holy Qur'an if you are not implementing Islamic state and Islamic law??? so it goes against the whole theory of Jinnah wanted a secular state.

[cheif No 1]

Before the black flags will be drawn satan will try utmost to stop it and he is doing it as we speak.

[SUPARCO]

Salaam,

Did you know Qaid-e-Azam had an alternative name for his new country if Britain rejected "Pakistan" as the name?  That name was 'Islamistan'.

What does Pakistan mean anyway?  Land of the Pure, I've heard?  What did Qaid-e-Azam think was Pure and Impure in this regard?  Why was there a need to separate the Pure from the Impure that he had to name an entire nation for the people from the Land of the Pure?

Salaam

[HKK]

Lets put it on bed once for all. No point in given reference to txts. Let us all hear what the man himself has to say.

"You are only voicing my sentiments and the sentiments of millions of Mussalmans. When you say that Pakistan should be based on pure foundations of social justice and Islamic...Islamic socialism.. Not other isms!"

(if in hurry watch from 1:30 onwards)



other references:





Even after listening to above, if someone thinks otherwise, needs to get ears checked.

[SUPARCO]

Pakistan: myth of a secular state — Ashraf
Monday, June 04, 2012

Pakistan may be no heaven on earth but we are undoubtedly much better off today than our elders who had to live through the nightmare of communal rioting that had ensued months before India’s independence. Yet we are no closer to reaching a consensus on the issue whether Pakistan was meant to be a secular state. It is debatable therefore that those in tens of millions who headed both east and west during the eventful days, traumatised but running very high on religious nationalism, had any clearer notion of the ideological contours of their new nation. This is not to suggest that those who never had to migrate had hedged their bets in favour of secularism.

This does not mean that there are no takers for secularism in today’s Pakistan. Self-proclaimed liberals are also the self-appointed guardians of Mohammad Ali Jinnah’s liberal political legacy and actively advocate the form of governance wherein there is a divorce between the state and religion. To this end, Jinnah’s August 11, 1947 speech has been quoted repeatedly. He says, “You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan...You may belong to any religion or caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the State...” No doubt, Jinnah uttered these words, but is this all he said on that historic occasion?

Jinnah delivered a composite speech in a recommendatory tone, in which he laid out a roadmap for Pakistan’s future. The speech must be read as a whole to make better sense of what was going on in Jinnah’s mind on that historic day. Those who pick and choose wilfully distort history to achieve their own contemporary political ends.

On August 11, 1947, the first constituent assembly of Pakistan unanimously elected Mohammad Ali Jinnah to preside over its meetings. However, at what would otherwise have been a joyous moment for him, the bloodstained landscape of northern India had gravely saddened him. Even the historic occasion and the thunderous applause could not pull him out of his morbid mood. What had been nagging him all along was the plight of millions of refuges, who either had voluntarily or involuntarily chosen to migrate to Pakistan. The British Raj had decided to quit India in a hurry and by doing so had thrown millions of defenceless Indians before the wolves. The ethnic cleansing that took place was unprecedented in the recorded history of the human race.

Rather than choosing to lecture on the virtues of secularism, Jinnah decided to start his speech by reminding the constituent assembly of its two foremost responsibilities: framing of the new constitution and functioning of the new assembly as “a full and complete Sovereign body as the Federal Legislature of Pakistan.” Underscoring the importance of sovereignty of the assembly, he further said, “The first and the foremost thing that I would like to emphasise is this. Remember that you are now a Sovereign Legislative body and you have got all the powers. It therefore, places on you the gravest responsibility as to how you should take your decisions...You will no doubt agree with me that the first duty of a Government is to maintain law and order, so that the life property and religious beliefs of its subjects are fully protected by the State...”

Of course, Jinnah was not only an astute politician, but also a visionary. He had realised that the scourge of corruption would eat up the very foundations of the new state, therefore he reminded the constituent assembly: “The second thing that occurs to me is this: One of the biggest curses from which India is suffering...is bribery and corruption. That really is a poison...” The old sage then chose to warn the elected leaders against the malaise of black-marketing, nepotism, and jobbery. He then chose to justify the division of India and hoped that the future historian would agree with him. The next segment of his speech could rightly be classified as his “unity, faith, discipline” message, reminding the members to work for their constituents and for the prosperity of all Pakistanis, irrespective of their differences. It is only then that he uttered the famous words, music to some ears, about religious freedom. Finally, he chose to conclude the speech by affirming, “...My guiding principle will be justice and complete impartiality, and I am sure that with your support and co-operation, I can look forward to Pakistan becoming one of the greatest Nations of the world.”

Those who have analysed Jinnah’s speech have often overlooked the fact that it was made before a group of “... mullahs, pirs, nawabs, rajas, shahs, and khans...” (Stanley Wolpert, Jinnah of Pakistan, page 338). Had Jinnah been a secular fundamentalist, he would have either not allowed the mullahs and the pirs into the House or ordered their expulsion. Rather, being a realist, he appreciated the multiple facets of the new state. He may have held Mustafa Kamal Ataturk in high esteem but unlike him, he was a pluralist. Jinnah did not believe in a top down model but rather preferred the politics of consensus. Therefore, those who make a point that he had an anti-clergy agenda are advancing their argument on flimsy grounds. The clerics may have had an anti-Jinnah agenda; the reverse however is not true.

Notwithstanding the aforementioned, Pakistan could have not been a secular state otherwise as well. Sporadic communal rioting aside, neither the Muslims nor their religion was faced with a mortal threat at any time in the secular British India. Nobody better than Jinnah appreciated this reality therefore, as late as 1946, he had no real desire or hurry to carve out a separate secular state for the Muslims of India.

Furthermore, the exigencies of realpolitik precluded Pakistan from turning into a secular state. It would have robbed the new state of its raison d’etre. Pakistan had to be a special state, formed in negation of secular India. It, therefore, could have not been secular India’s twin. India’s demographics, of course, were ideal for the formation of a secular state. Notwithstanding its large minority population, the Indian Hindus, even today, are extremely diverse, owed largely to the fact that Hinduism is not a religion but a mythology. A deity worshipped in Delhi, is not necessarily worshipped in Chennai. Brahmins are strict vegetarians all over India but in West Bengal, fish is a part of Brahmins’ daily staple diet. Therefore, even if the Congress’ hierarchy had ever dreamt of a Hindu India, the idea was shelved readily and prudently. Muslims of India however, were a different case altogether.

During the 1946 elections, the Muslim League ticket holders, mindful of the fact that the new nation could not be India’s clone, sparingly played the ‘Muslim card’; their Congress opponents with a secular manifesto really stood no chance. Contested on separate electorate basis, needless to say, the Muslim League trounced Congress in that election. The same politicians, let us be mindful, became members of our very first constituent assembly. Therefore, those who had won their seats on the Muslim card and separate electorate could have not turned around and advocated a separation between the state and religion. Interestingly, neither that constituent assembly nor any subsequent assembly has ever chosen to pass a resolution demanding Pakistan to be a secular state. Parliament represents the collective will of the people.

Pakistan was formed for the Muslims of India, in which they could not only live but also thrive according to their own way of life. That way of life naturally demands safeguarding its various aspects through legislation. How could a state stay neutral or in an extreme case, divorced from religion while regulating both the temporal and non-temporal? Through this article, hopefully a debate would be started, determining once and all, the value we still attach to those words uttered on August 11, 1947. Let me rephrase the question again: if Jinnah was secular; did he want the same for Pakistan?

The writer is an advocate of the high court

http://dailytimes.co..._4-6-2012_pg3_5

[Bilal]

Pakistan was founded on the basis of Islam, otherwise, there was no reason for partition, thats common sense and all this BS and confusion has been created lately. Islam is the binding force behind Pakistan.

Although there is an overwhelming evidence that Quid-e-Azam had a vision of Islamic welfare state, but, I will go as far as saying that if he wanted something else then even that does not matter since people only followed Muslim League to achieve a state where they can adhere to Islamic values in all walks of life and that include the state ideology and system.

[haroons222]

platinum786, on 04 June 2012 - 04:54 AM, said:

Those who wish to ignore the Islamic ideology behind Pakistan will do so against mountains of evidence.

002:18 - Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).(Holy Quran)

Regardless, Muhammad Ali Jinnah passed away in 1948, Today is 2012, we succeed him, we are the Pakistani's, Pakistan will be what WE want it to be. Nations evolve, this is our evolution, from a state setup for the Muslims of what was then India, to an Islamic state.

Exaclty, its been 60 frggin yrs, move on already.Also,my ideal is the Prophet(S.A.W) not jinnah.If it was only a separate homeland,trust me, many of current day Pakistan were pretty safe in muslim majority lands, the only appeal for them, and promises made to them were that of an Islamic STATE.So is one speech going to change what those ppl wanted or were promised?

ON the flip side, the clergy today is absolutely rotten, and the public has no clue about Islam for the most part. Our ineptness has allowed idiots to be self proclaimed thakaydar of Islam. you have the fake pirs,spreading jahalat and then you have the puritanical wannabe arab fundamentalists confusing the hell out of people. Some ppl dont want to listen, other reject boht of them, sadly no one makes the effort to understand Islam.its Maulana fazlu,vs pir dabba, vs zakir naik.goodluck with that.

[MoThSmOkE]

My personal opinion.

Jinnah: wanted a secular state. His speeches and actions give ample proof of that. Alot of clergy during his time were against him for the same reason.

Presently, if Pakistanis are too confused as to what Jinnah wanted, they can just have a referendum and end the debate once and for all. Jinnah's words or his philosophy do not need to be followed till eternity.

[Caesar]

Oh God at last someone ... thank you for being the voice of Sanity.

No one wants to spend time reading the history, no one wants to spend time learning the life and history of Jinnah, no one wants to spend time on the thinking and view points of Jinnah but yes they have time to pass on out of this world judgements.

For the record Jinnah was a great fan of Mustafa Kemal of Turkey.

Mullahs of Jamat-e-Islami and other religious clowns were AGAINST Jinnah and AGAINST THE CREATION OF Pakistan because they were against the secular thinking Jinnah. But ordinary people of that era WERE WITH JINNAH. THEY WOULD COME IN THOUSANDS AND MILLIONS TO ATTEND HIS SPEECHES. Only a minority was with these illiterate Mullahs; one one trusted these snakes.

But after the creation of Pakistan and death of Jinnah these snakes saw an opportunity to spread their vermon. They hijacked this country and spread their hatred. After 60 years everyone can see the results.

The country is filled with islamic terrorists killing ordinary people, killing soldiers, killing everyone. And you fellows have forgotten your forefathers and their principles and are happily supporting these murderers. Good on you, keep up the good work.

[HKK]

MoThSmOkE, on 08 June 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

My personal opinion.

Jinnah: wanted a secular state. His speeches and actions give ample proof of that. Alot of clergy during his time were against him for the same reason.

Presently, if Pakistanis are too confused as to what Jinnah wanted, they can just have a referendum and end the debate once and for all. Jinnah's words or his philosophy do not need to be followed till eternity.

What is it that you dont understand in my post #10 ??

We can all claim to be allama here but when the man himself has already spoken, all we have to do is to put our headphones on and listen.

Otherwise as someone has already mentioned

002:18 - Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).(Holy Quran)

[sobank]

im hearing a lot about ample proof for secular state. Where is this ample proof? If there was ample proof for secular state then how come these clowns so badly looking for one tape that is, apparently, very hard to get. How come I dont hear any urdu speech that a common person could understand in 1940s, does not have this ample proof.

As usual it is the case of "he said it once". Doesnt matter what he said million times. But this is again like those stupid arguments where you will keep bringing the proof and they will keep repeating the same thing like parrots.

And yes no one wants to learn the history. And those who accidently has read some, will take bits and pieces and slap them into other faces.

Jinnah maybe fan of Pasha, but he also supported arabs regarding the claim of land in israel etc. And then he disowned his daugter for marrying non muslim. Out of the window, goes your secular jinnah theory. Say bye bye to the boat if you have a pinch of integrity.

oh and people did not support jinnah. 99% of them didnt understand a word out of jinnah's mouth. They supported Pakistan - a country for muslims with islamic constitution. Which, by the way, gave 100% guarantee of protection of race and religion. A guarantee which was given long before any of secular numb nutt thought of such idea.

[MoThSmOkE]

Secular in this context means separation of religion in governance.

sobank bro, a person can be secular and dead against marrying off his kids to a kaafir. A person can be secular and pray 5 times a day. Pakistan's first law minister was a hindu.

If secular to some of you means that they become total burgers and only talk to a person in terms of his/her status in society then our definition of secularism differs.

Anyways, as I mentioned earlier, Pakistanis can have a referendum. They don't have to follow Jinnah's philosophy.

HKK, I was talking about what my opinion of Jinnah's leanings were. As to what ideology I'd like for Pakistan is a debate for another day.

Quote

Exaclty, its been 60 frggin yrs, move on already.Also,my ideal is the Prophet(S.A.W) not jinnah.If it was only a separate homeland,trust me, many of current day Pakistan were pretty safe in muslim majority lands, the only appeal for them, and promises made to them were that of an Islamic STATE.So is one speech going to change what those ppl wanted or were promised?

Totally agreed. Its been 60 years already. Pakistanis shouldn't be relying on Jinnah's speech anymore on what kind of future they want for themselves.

[Caesar]

sobank, on 10 June 2012 - 03:11 AM, said:

oh and people did not support jinnah. 99% of them didnt understand a word out of jinnah's mouth. They supported Pakistan - a country for muslims with islamic constitution. Which, by the way, gave 100% guarantee of protection of race and religion. A guarantee which was given long before any of secular numb nutt thought of such idea.

Sobank I am sorry to say but mate you are insulting millions of people of that era who laid down their lives for this country because they trusted and adored Jinnah. They admired and trusted him even when he mostly spoke English during his speeches. Countries just don't come into existence; they come into existence due to great leaders of vision and the people who support their vision.



Being secular doesn't mean not being Muslims. Turkey is a perfect example of this.

[Pak-Son]

MoThSmOkE, on 10 June 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

Secular in this context means separation of religion in governance.

sobank bro, a person can be secular and dead against marrying off his kids to a kaafir. A person can be secular and pray 5 times a day. Pakistan's first law minister was a hindu.

If secular to some of you means that they become total burgers and only talk to a person in terms of his/her status in society then our definition of secularism differs.

Anyways, as I mentioned earlier, Pakistanis can have a referendum. They don't have to follow Jinnah's philosophy.

HKK, I was talking about what my opinion of Jinnah's leanings were. As to what ideology I'd like for Pakistan is a debate for another day.


Totally agreed. Its been 60 years already. Pakistanis shouldn't be relying on Jinnah's speech anymore on what kind of future they want for themselves.

In his last speech to the State Bank of Pakistan Muhammad Ali Jinnah denounced the Western economic system and stated that the only solution for all the economic crises is an economic system based on true islamic principles. If he would have been secular he wouldn´t denounce the Western system but would rather call on the people of Pakistan to adopt the Western economic system instead of something else. This was Jinnah´s philosopy.
Here is an extract of his last speech.


The State Bank of Pakistan - A symbol of our sovereignty (1st Jul 1948)


' I shall watch with keenness the work of your Research Organisation in evolving banking practices compatible with Islamic ideals of social and economic life. The economic system of the West has created almost insoluble problems for humanity and to many of us it appears that only a miracle can save it from disaster that is now facing the world. It has failed to do justice between man and man and to eradicate friction from the international field. On the contrary, it was largely responsible for the two world wars in the last half century, The Western world, in spite of its advantages of mechanization and industrial efficiency is today in a worse mess than ever before in history. The adoption Western economic theory and practice will not help us in achieving our goal of creating a happy and contented people. We must work our destiny in our own way and present to the world an economic system based on true Islamic concept of equality of manhood and social justice. We will thereby be fulfilling our mission as Muslims and giving to humanity the message of peace which alone can save it and secure the welfare, happiness and prosperity of mankind.'

http://m-a-jinnah.bl...bol-of-our.html

[MoThSmOkE]

Pak-son:

No denying of Jinnah's words about western economic system. Jinnah being a visionary leader knew western economic system's weaknesses and told Pakistanis to guard against these problems affecting themselves. But does criticizing western economic system equate to leaning towards the left or right. Its very hard to guess.

Some say, Jinnah himself was confused. Whether to have an Islamic republic or a country that would be secular with religion and governance staying away from each other, or maybe somewhere in between a grey area for future generation Pakistanis to decide. Maybe the latter is what he wanted? Maybe.

[Pak-Son]

MoThSmOkE, on 10 June 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

Pak-son:

No denying of Jinnah's words about western economic system. Jinnah being a visionary leader knew western economic system's weaknesses and told Pakistanis to guard against these problems affecting themselves. But does criticizing western economic system equate to leaning towards the left or right. Its very hard to guess.

Some say, Jinnah himself was confused. Whether to have an Islamic republic or a country that would be secular with religion and governance staying away from each other, or maybe somewhere in between a grey area for future generation Pakistanis to decide. Maybe the latter is what he wanted? Maybe.

Brother we know that Quad-e-Azam had different stages in his life with different kind of motives. He not only critized the western economic system but also told us that the only solution for these economic crises can merely be solved through an economic system based on Islamic principles.  He often talked about a system based on islamic social justice. He wanted Pakistan to become the 'bulwark of Islam'. Yet another famous quote of him was  'If we take our inspiration and guidance from the Holy Quran, the final victory, I once again say, will be ours' These statements came in the end of his life time which is a clear indication for me that he was not secular but a person inspired by Islam only.  He wanted no other system than a system based on Islam.

The seculars and the congessi mullahs are confusing the minds of the people till today. My opinion is that Quaid-e-Azam (r.a.) had a clear vision about Pakistan but unfortunately because of the confusion some are creating we as a whole couldn´t figure out his vision.

[haroons222]

Mothsmoke, a person can be muslim in a secular state, but theres still a huge difference.ALTHOUGH,BEFORE i say anything else,i think there is a strong need to cultivate islamic knowledge in Pakistan and strenghten it.

So what if some deviant groups want to legalize homosexuality in Pakistan?If Pakistan is indeed a SECULAR state, with a secular constitution, how will you stop that?Same goes for for people trying to ban hijab or religious symbols in public.Look at the bayhai in our culture already,its the weakness of the Islamic principles and the inability of the courts to implement Islamic laws.In a secular country,it will be so easy for ppl like Veena Malik to actually argue their case on freedom of expression,no one would even raise a voice.Actually,Pakistan in its current state, sadly is already a pretty secular state, we are only Islamic republic by name, with the big bad mullah the boogey man to keep people away from Islam.I know these look like extreme examples, but IF Pakistan IS SECULAR, there are no LEGAL safegaurds against this.
BTW, There were zorastrian and jewish advisors and ministers in the early Islamic empire, the islamic khalifas of the time knew they needed all the human resoureces they could utilize.Its totally fine to have non-muslim public officers, as long as the governing law is Islamic and they pledge allegiance to the state.

IN MY OPINION, the problem is that we have extreme, jahili form of Islam professed by some self procliamed scholars, just imams, funded for militancy who think they are muftis. What the sane,educated middle class did is, they tried rebuking them with secularism rather than attaining Islamic knowledge themselves and beating them at their own game. We need to revive Islamic culture in our country, kick out the extremist element by discussion and arguement and then pave the way for an Islamic welfare state, it wont happen overnight, BUT THE DENIAL of the aspirations is a step in the wrong direction.
There is nothing holding all the parts together except islam, make no mistakes about that!

[HKK]

[sobank]

to Mothsmoke

Look there are no two meanings of any term. Secular means state with no allowance for religious practices. France is the example. Perhaps what you referring to is a liberal state more like canada/US where you are fully allowed to practice your religion. I urge you not to use the terms in their correct meanings as what is implied is not what you mean but what everybody understands them to be.

Secondly, Caesar, sorry. My intention is not to insult but if you feel that I insulted the nation, I cannt help it. Muslims were largely ignorent class. Even today you have barely 1% of population in Pakistan that can understand actual english.

So sorry my friend. But you need to say hello to the reality. Cause fact is such a sweet unforgiving b|tch. Muslims did not follow quaid because of what he said in speeches. They followed him for the general idea of Pakistan that was conveyed to them by the urdu speaking leaders. Jinnah was there Bono, there anglina jolie of the time - the celebrity politician. This is not to say that jinnah was not doing job as a leader properly. He did it very efficiently, honestly and loyaly.

Anyways, we were talking about literacy. So here is the solid fact. we were and even today, largely, an illitrate nation when it comes to english. think its insult then change this fact.

[Pak-Son]

May Allah SWT bless his Soul, ameen!!


Jinnah (R.A) the Saint - Fascinating Spiritual Dimension of Quaid-e-Azam's Life




A lot has been written on Quaid-e-Azam and his life but his spiritual dimension is suppressed in his political life. I would give a reference of one of Quaid-e-Azam's letters. Amir-e-Millat Peer Jama'at Ali Shah r.a had sent a unique written script "Holy Qur'an", a prayer mat from Madina, a Tasbeeh, Zamzam water and a few more things to Quaid-e-Azam (r.a). Having received these things, Quaid-e-Azam (r.a) wrote in reply:

"As long as prayers of such elders like you are with me, I am to be successful in my mission already. And I promise you, no matter how many hardships I am to face, I would not give up my ambition.. You have gifted me with the Holy Qur'an because I am a leader of the Muslims. Unless and until, I may not have proper knowledge and understanding of this Holy Book, how can I be able to lead the Muslim nation? I promise you that I will study the Holy Qur'an. I have got the English translation with me, I am in search of a good scholar who can guide me well in this regard. You have gifted me a Prayer mat because when I will not listen to my Creator The Almighty, why would my people listen to me? I promise you, I will offer prayers regularly. You have presented me a Tasbeeh so that I would recite Durud Shareef on it. A person who doesn't seek Prophet Muhammed s.a.w's Faiz (blessing), how would Allah Almighty's blessings be showered upon him? I would also obey this insh'Allah."
[IMG]

When this letter of the Quaid was read by Peer Jama'at Ali Shah (r.a.), he became amused and said, "I am sitting in Hyderabad while Jinnah is in Mumbai, how did he get to know about my heart although I didn't even mention before him.Indeed Jinnah is a 'Wali Ullah' (A pious saint of Allah)." [1]
This is a glimpse of the founder of the nation! Listen to Abdur Rasheed Butler:

"When Quaid-e-Azam (r.a) arrived at the Governor House 2'o clock at night, I offered him a cup of coffee. At the same time, Sardar Abdur Rab Nishtar had been in the governor house to meet Quaid-e-Azam. He got done with his meeting at around 2:30 am and then left. As he left, the security men called me because I was the last government personnal to go to Quaid's room. The Security men asked me, "Did you see anyone right now? Because someone's foot step voice can be heard from the room where Quaid-e-Azam(r.a) had stayed. This voice is coming in a rhythm, stops and then again starts in the same way." Since the area of Sarhad wasn't much safe, so the Security officials got concerned about Quaid-e-Azam's security, but they could not dare to knock at the door. So I was assigned to go and check the situation from a window all silently. As I looked into the window, I saw Quaid-e-Azam (r.a) walking on the floor. This concerned me and I looked into the window deeper to know the reason. The foot step sound was created as Quaidwalked on the wooden floor. As he stopped, he would keep his elbows on the wood stove, read something from the above kept book and started walking again. He cried as he walked.
[IMG]

I went and informed the Security men, on hearing this, they told me,"Baba Quaid has got an English translation copy of the Holy Qur'aan with him." On hearing this, I understood that BabaQuaid would read 2-3 verses, then would read their translation. Then he would start walking in the room, as he walked, he concentrated on the verses that he had read, having understood their meaning, his eyes began to shed tears. Quaid-e-Azam's sepoy Muneer Ahmed said, "This is baba Quaid's routine. He reads Qur'aan with translation in solitude and then cry for hours." And amazingly how people have spread misconfusions about the founding father of this nation! [2]
Quaid-e-Azam's ex ADC Mohiudeen shed some light on Baba's Tahajjud time:
This incident is of 1949 when Quaid-e-Azam was staying at Mr. Sherwani's house. Around 3 am, a loud sound came from Mr. Jinnah's room. I was in the next room, hearing this, I hurriedly rushed to Quaid-e-Azam's room. I saw Quaid-e-Azam standing in the prayer and a broken water bottle was lying on the floor beside him. ActuallyQuaid-e-Azam was all so lost in the prayer that when he got up during prayer, his hand hit the bottle and it came down on the floor and broke into pieces. [3]
[IMG]

All his life Quaid-e-Azam had a strong desire to go for pilgrimage and offer Hajj and always craved to be at the Rauza Paak (resting place) of Prophet Muhammed s.a.ww. When he decided to go to pay homage at the Haramain Shareefain, Peer Jam'aat Ali Shah r.a. congratulated Quaid and wrote in a letter:
"Now it's your duty to leave all other tasks aside and fufill your promise and bow before Allah ta'ala and pay homage before Rasool s.a.ww at Darbaar-e-Medina and show gratitude for the success of Muslim league."
Quaid-e-Azam r.a wrote in reply:
"Thanks a lot for the 7th July letter. You know that the rapidly changing situation of Hindustan may not allow me to leave the place."
After the establishment of Pakistan, Quaid-e-Azam's speech at the event of Eid Milad-un-Nabi s.a.ww is of captivating importance:
"Today we are here in the form of an 'inferior gathering' trying to pay homage to that greatest man in the entire humanity (Prophet Muhammed s.a.ww) whose love, respect and reverence are filled in the hearts of Millions of humans.. The greatest personality on whose name, big intellectuals and other big personalities are bound to bow their heads. I can by no mean, pay homage and reverence to such a great personality of Prophet Muhammed (s.a.ww)."
[IMG]
Quaid-e-Azam on Eid Prayer

Quaid-e-Azam truly wanted to implent the Islamic Shariah Law in this sacred land and truly wanted to see a glimpse of the era of our forefathers, the Khulfa-e-Rashidoon (the 4 Caliphs).
Let's ponder over an excerpt of Quaid-e-Azam r.a's speech:
"All that I have served the Muslims and this land Pakistan.. have served it as a personal soldier and servant of Islam. Now, to make Pakistan a great nation and a developed country on the earth, you all have to put your efforts with me. I Strongly long and wish to see Pakistan emerging as an Islamic state so that once again the world can see the beautiful picture of Hazrat Umar Farooq's golden era.. May Allah the Almighty fulfill this wish of mine!" [4]
Quaid-e-Azam (r.a)'s ancestors had embraced Islam at the hands of a Qadri saint Hazrat Syed Abdur Razzaq Gilani who was a descendant from Ghaus-ul-Azam Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jilani (r.a)'s children. When Quaid-e-Azam started working for the Muslims of the subcontinent, the men of Allah (saints) guided Quaid-e-Azam both physically and spritually. I would like to quote an excerpt here:
"Third personality whom Quaid-e-Azam (r.a) admired a lot, was Hazrat Ghazi Sahab. Apparently he was a trader and an activist of All India Muslim League but internally he was an Abdaal (a grade in Sufism) and he was sent from Darbaar-e-Baghdad for Quaid-e-Azam r.a's spiritual upbringing." [5]

Quaid-e-Azam had always safeguarded the rights of the Muslims and observed the laws of Islam. Despite severe pressure from the biased British and the hostile Hindu, neither did Quaid-e-Azam ever give up nor did he ever sell out his honor and dignity!


Once Mother of the Nation, Madam Fatima Jinnah (r.a) was quoted as saying:

"Fundamentally a child has to be attached with his religion. His love to his religion from his childhood would never let him go astray. Quaid-e-Azam's opponents always accused him of being fond of Western culture. They used to get wrong assumptions from Quaid's nature of well dressing and his command over fluent English language. But a very few know, that Quaid-e-Azamwas a true Muslim believer and he had great love for Islam. That is why, Hindu couldn't buy him and British couldn't alter his views." [6]


[1] Muhammed Sadiq Qasoori (Tehreek-e-Pakistan and Mashaikh-e-Azzam)
[2] Daily Nawa-e-waqt, Rawalpindi (25 December 1947)
[3] 'Quaid-e-Azam ka Mazhar aur Aqeeda' by Abdur Rehman Khan
[4] 'Islam aur Quaid-e-Azam' by Muhammed Hanif Shahid
[5] Orally by Abdur Rehman Khan
[6] 'Fatima Jinnah k shab-o-roz by Surayya Khursheed


http://www.Pakistan..../#ixzz1xVwtz6He

[rungroot]

Aye lo ji, liberal seculars ki gandee ho gayee.  ;-P

[blueazure]

^^ lo jee

case closed


khoda pahar , nikla chooha

[Mughal1]

For comprhensive information about iqbal, jinnah and paksitan

http://www.parwez.tv/free-audio.html

[Caesar]

sobank, on 11 June 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

Secondly, Caesar, sorry. My intention is not to insult but if you feel that I insulted the nation, I cannt help it. Muslims were largely ignorent class. Even today you have barely 1% of population in Pakistan that can understand actual english.

So sorry my friend. But you need to say hello to the reality. Cause fact is such a sweet unforgiving b|tch. Muslims did not follow quaid because of what he said in speeches. They followed him for the general idea of Pakistan that was conveyed to them by the urdu speaking leaders. Jinnah was there Bono, there anglina jolie of the time - the celebrity politician. This is not to say that jinnah was not doing job as a leader properly. He did it very efficiently, honestly and loyaly.

Anyways, we were talking about literacy. So here is the solid fact. we were and even today, largely, an illitrate nation when it comes to english. think its insult then change this fact.

Thanks Sobank. You are right, ground realities of present are different. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter what Jinnah wanted Pakistan to be, the ground realities of today point towards a population with largely religious mindset. Can't argue with that.

[rungroot]

blueazure, on 12 June 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

^^ lo jee

case closed


khoda pahar , nikla chooha

chooha nahi, choohiya; bindiya lagaa nay waaleen moti hindu choohiyaania jin kay naam hain marvi sirmid aur [b[asma jinhangir[/b]!!!  LOL...