27 replies to this topic

[BaburMissile]

“They say they are willing to use the F-16s to bomb the hideouts,” a senior US diplomatic source said. “They want the drone strikes to halt.” — File Photo

WASHINGTON: Pakistan is apparently insisting that the United States must stop drone strikes in Fata and has offered to use its own air force to destroy militant hideouts, diplomatic sources told Dawn.

“They say they are willing to use the F-16s to bomb the hideouts,” a senior diplomatic source said. “They want the drone strikes to halt.”

According to these sources, Pakistan has proposed that whenever the Americans want to bomb a particular militant target inside Fata, “they should pass on the information to them and they will bomb the target for the Americans”.

The US media, however, are reporting that the United States also has sent a set of proposals to Pakistan to settle this dispute.

The proposals include an offer to give Pakistan advanced notice of drone strikes and implement new limits on the types of targets.

Pakistan is believed to have rejected the proposals.

Both sides have clearly defined positions on the use of this unmanned technology which the Americans say has killed many terrorists. The Pakistanis agree but they point out that the drones also have killed many civilians and want them stopped.

Senior Pakistani diplomats, who have stayed engaged with their American counterparts on this issue, admit that the US and Pakistan need to find “a meeting point” to resolve this dispute.

But they also acknowledge that it is difficult to find “a meeting point” when each side is convinced that they “need to stick to their positions to protect their national interests”, as a senior Pakistani diplomat said.

American experts, who spoke to the media on this issue, said that the Pakistani government minimised its options by taking the dispute to parliament. “No parliament can allow an external power to bomb targets inside its own territory,” one such expert said.

Bruce Riedel, who drafted the Obama administration’s first Af-Pak policy, said that the United States would not accept the Pakistani proposal to let it carry out the attacks.

Pakistan wanted to go back to the “Reagan rules — the way the CIA operated with the ISI against the Soviets … We give them a big cheque, and they make every decision about how that is spent”, he told AP.

“Minimal American footprint in country, or involvement in actual fighting the bad guys.”

The US could no longer trust the ISI to fight this war for them after finding Osama bin Laden in a Pakistani military town, he said.

OBL’s discovery in Abbottabad showed that “the ISI was either clueless or complicit,” Mr Riedel said.

Source: http://www.dawn.com/...-us-told-2.html

I wonder why Pakistan needs US approval to fight militants and miscreants in its own border area according to its own strategy? Is it because our military and civilian leadership receives a "big cheque" to abide by Washington's dictation? What purpose is left in talking with US/NATO? Even after losing tens of thousands of innocent lives we're negotiating with US/NATO about the rules of engagement. It's an absolute outrage that our military and civilian leadership are holding meetings with US/NATO officials on the highest level. What happened to the parliamentary outcome? Is there any shame left? There's no other way of describing it, but our leadership is indeed incompetent and disloyal to its own people. The biggest threat to Pakistan isn't the US/NATO. The biggest threat is our own sold-out and complicit leadership. Leadership which isn't sincere about Pakistan. Leadership which has no clear stance nor vision. Leadership which has only one primary goal, namely willing to go to any length for aid and bribe dollars.

[Panzer-kiel]

waise, all things aside......i prefer slow moving and accurate drones over fast moving falcons......they surely will hit ma troops ofcourse!

[Panzer-kiel]

drones keep on hovering slowly over the target area, even descending way down towards the ground if the situation requires, then they r readily available, flyin from some nearby place.....unlike the F-16s, which wud require the highest level approval, and tht too wud come bit late in the day....same story as the Cobras!

[Jazba-e-Kashmir]

if PAF can save it's humiliated face and broken glamour infront of it's own people and diehard fans; then it is good decision.

And that's the reason to why PAF acquired the F-16s, to use them in the war on terror. And us made drones have not been given to Pakistan to fight for the war on terror, therefore going by the logic to use F-16s is designated for the operations in first place.
Drones might operate in longer periods and spy on enemies on ground, but there should be no compromise at all at this point that us drones use Pakistani airspace, Pakistani soil and Pakistani seas to promote the anti-Pakistani agenda in the country.

Regardless if PAF wants to revive the spirit as the former selfrespected, non-bowing, steady and keep-a-stretched-backbone Pakistani generals from the reagan rules, there must be the same attitude and reflection coming from the politicians in Islamabad.
The point is, PAF or any other branch from the Pakistan Armed Forces can't do anything about the present situation becase coas-officials reflect the corrupt civilian government,

They don't care if the average innocent Pakistani loses blood and dies.

Peace

[BaburMissile]

waise, all things aside......i prefer slow moving and accurate drones over fast moving falcons......they surely will hit ma troops ofcourse!

What about the innocent people? Drone attacks kill scores of innocent people. Should that be acceptable? There should be no difference between the life of soldiers and innocent tribal people. Being a Pakistani and professional soldier you ought to know this better than the rest of us. This war is about winning hearts and minds. You've fought this war for a decade. What have we achieved?

[Panzer-kiel]

What about the innocent people? Drone attacks kill scores of innocent people. Should that be acceptable? There should be no difference between the life of soldiers and innocent tribal people. Being a Pakistani and professional soldier you ought to know this better than the rest of us. This war is about winning hearts and minds. You've fought this war for a decade. What have we achieved?

well, ur concern for innocent casualties in these attacks is very much true, i respect that, i hav the same feelings as u hav......but then i think it wud be better if we all say that drone attacks shud TRY to avoid civilian casualties, otherwise, lemme tell u, since the time i hav been deployed in ma AOO, there hav been many drone attacks, they fly day and night, but i hav counted about 50 militant casualties but not a SINGLE civilian killed nor has been reported. the militants #### green on hearin a drone or seeing a Cobra, thts wht makes them afraid.....but then somebody shud ask the locals also that y do they let these ppl in their homes and let them spend a night so that they operate against our troops then retreat again....then think urself, a group of militants holed up in a house and ready to fight it out.....for me, the options....arty which wud do much more collateral damage and aint tht accurate to pinpoint a target.....mortars hav the same prob as arty, cobras which dont come that easy to flatten some house or to go after a dozen individuals,....PAF is not at all called, dont know why, who stops them etc....but otherwise they r not at all suited for this purpose since they fly fast and cant hit small targets, tht too in an intense broken terrain, when u can hide in a crack and be invisible from anything xcept Allah....last option is for ma troops to go in themselves...but then who cares for all the IEDs and AP mines around the house, the armed-to-the-teeth militants who r ready to fight, with suicide vests on them.....perched on some top.....very hard for us.........
for us, the drones, slow moving (they can easily spot targets this way), not ours mean even they r downed, no loss for our state, well armed with Hellfires etc is the solution........efficient in the sense it minimizes own casualties.......
....while i again say tht civilian casualties shud be avoided, but not at the cost of the intended targets......who knows if we dont get him in a house, he might detonate somethin big in a crowded bazaar in a city, killing abt some hundred ppl...civilians again....so whts the solution then??

[BaburMissile]

well, ur concern for innocent casualties in these attacks is very much true, i respect that, i hav the same feelings as u hav......but then i think it wud be better if we all say that drone attacks shud TRY to avoid civilian casualties, otherwise, lemme tell u, since the time i hav been deployed in ma AOO, there hav been many drone attacks, they fly day and night, but i hav counted about 50 militant casualties but not a SINGLE civilian killed nor has been reported. the militants #### green on hearin a drone or seeing a Cobra, thts wht makes them afraid.....but then somebody shud ask the locals also that y do they let these ppl in their homes and let them spend a night so that they operate against our troops then retreat again....then think urself, a group of militants holed up in a house and ready to fight it out.....for me, the options....arty which wud do much more collateral damage and aint tht accurate to pinpoint a target.....mortars hav the same prob as arty, cobras which dont come that easy to flatten some house or to go after a dozen individuals,....PAF is not at all called, dont know why, who stops them etc....but otherwise they r not at all suited for this purpose since they fly fast and cant hit small targets, tht too in an intense broken terrain, when u can hide in a crack and be invisible from anything xcept Allah....last option is for ma troops to go in themselves...but then who cares for all the IEDs and AP mines around the house, the armed-to-the-teeth militants who r ready to fight, with suicide vests on them.....perched on some top.....very hard for us.........
for us, the drones, slow moving (they can easily spot targets this way), not ours mean even they r downed, no loss for our state, well armed with Hellfires etc is the solution........efficient in the sense it minimizes own casualties.......
....while i again say tht civilian casualties shud be avoided, but not at the cost of the intended targets......who knows if we dont get him in a house, he might detonate somethin big in a crowded bazaar in a city, killing abt some hundred ppl...civilians again....so whts the solution then??

If you're a patriotic Pakistani, you too should be very concerned about the innocent deaths as a result of the drone strikes. Respect alone isn't enough. No matter what anyone says, a drone strike cannot distinguish between a terrorist or an innocent civilian. Fact is that drone missiles cause tremendous amount of collateral damage. A few militants are killed, but the majority of victims are innocent citizens. Many bipartisan organizations such as the Brookings Institution suggest that drone strikes kill "10 or so civilians" for every militant killed. Though, I understand where your support for the drone strikes originates from. The Pakistani military has generally stated that most of those killed were hardcore Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants. An unbelievably absurd claim without any substantiation.To make matters worse, many civilians have also been attacked in deliberate strikes on funerals and mourners. The strikes are carried out on the basis of human intelligence. Often, faulty intelligence provided by rouge anti-Pak elements to cause intentional carnage and bloodshed. Not to mention that the use of US drones contravenes international humanitarian law. The CIA is running a covert program that is killing significant numbers of people and there is absolutely no accountability in terms of the relevant international laws. Besides, which country on this planet allows another foreign country to obliterate its sovereignty? The CIA could care less about the loss of innocent Pakistani lives and are more than trigger happy. On a different note, the insurgents use the locals as shields. The innocent locals don't provide help to the insurgents.

• Who has stopped the Pakistan army from using home made drones against insurgents for intelligence gathering?
• Who has stopped the Pakistan army from using home made armed drones to carry out precision strikes?
• Who has stopped the Pakistan army from conducting ground operations to take out militants?
• Why does the Pakistani civilian leadership and establishment lie to its people about sovereignty violation when it has reached a secret deal with the Americans?
• Why does Pakistan provide intelligence information to the US while publicly the Pakistani government continues to condemn and deny the attacks?
• Why is the entire drone drama staged around lies and deception if the strikes are so helpful in eliminating terrorists?

We wonder why we're in such a mess, but it's no coincidence. We've to stop picking sides, be sincere and learn to stand on our own feet. Solution is to start taking care of our own problems instead of outsourcing them in exchange for military and economic aid. The crux of the problem is that our leaders are insincere, characterless and incompetent. Our leaders are profiting from the innocent blood of their own people. The whole world is a witness.

[EagleHannan]

well, ur concern for innocent casualties in these attacks is very much true, i respect that, i hav the same feelings as u hav......but then i think it wud be better if we all say that drone attacks shud TRY to avoid civilian casualties, otherwise, lemme tell u, since the time i hav been deployed in ma AOO, there hav been many drone attacks, they fly day and night, but i hav counted about 50 militant casualties but not a SINGLE civilian killed nor has been reported. the militants #### green on hearin a drone or seeing a Cobra, thts wht makes them afraid.....but then somebody shud ask the locals also that y do they let these ppl in their homes and let them spend a night so that they operate against our troops then retreat again....then think urself, a group of militants holed up in a house and ready to fight it out.....for me, the options....arty which wud do much more collateral damage and aint tht accurate to pinpoint a target.....mortars hav the same prob as arty, cobras which dont come that easy to flatten some house or to go after a dozen individuals,....PAF is not at all called, dont know why, who stops them etc....but otherwise they r not at all suited for this purpose since they fly fast and cant hit small targets, tht too in an intense broken terrain, when u can hide in a crack and be invisible from anything xcept Allah....last option is for ma troops to go in themselves...but then who cares for all the IEDs and AP mines around the house, the armed-to-the-teeth militants who r ready to fight, with suicide vests on them.....perched on some top.....very hard for us.........
for us, the drones, slow moving (they can easily spot targets this way), not ours mean even they r downed, no loss for our state, well armed with Hellfires etc is the solution........efficient in the sense it minimizes own casualties.......
....while i again say tht civilian casualties shud be avoided, but not at the cost of the intended targets......who knows if we dont get him in a house, he might detonate somethin big in a crowded bazaar in a city, killing abt some hundred ppl...civilians again....so whts the solution then??

Is this guy for real? I have been silent for a while but I guess enough is enough. I have been following this person's posts (know it all types) and "ma troops", "ma car", "ma jewels" type. Damn it, is this the type serving Pakistan army now? Assumptions and bakwas he writes. Damn it, if I try to start marking the loose links in his post, the whole day will be spent.

He has not seen a SINGLE (ya all caps) civilian casuality in drone attacks and "JUST DONT WANT TO shoot @ drone" (sala bheghairat). Better ma troops are safe, hell with locals who keep militants and give them homes to spend nights (is someone feeding us with what FORMER JI-JHONES of CENTCOM used to say). Damn it they are not hotels there and Lashkars of locals make sure it doesnt happen. Who is this guy bullshitting?

I dont have time to go through all the TECHNICAL mistakes he makes while not realizing that CENTCOM used to have middle finger from us and so we give to all those who tow that line. This bheghairat, lost guy is not from Pakistan army and if so, I am just ashmed that cream of this nation doesnt care, hell cant even write proper English. Brown sahib wana be "ma homie". Salay its the black language you're using. Gora master doesnt speak it. Okie kokie!!!!

Wo Fareeb khurda Shaheen jo pala ho Ghisson main
Wo kia janay k kia hay Rah-e-rasm-e-shahbazi

[Panzer-kiel]

Is this guy for real? I have been silent for a while but I guess enough is enough. I have been following this person's posts (know it all types) and "ma troops", "ma car", "ma jewels" type. Damn it, is this the type serving Pakistan army now? Assumptions and bakwas he writes. Damn it, if I try to start marking the loose links in his post, the whole day will be spent.
He has not seen a SINGLE (ya all caps) civilian casuality in drone attacks and "JUST DONT WANT TO shoot @ drone" (sala bheghairat). Better ma troops are safe, hell with locals who keep militants and give them homes to spend nights (is someone feeding us with what FORMER JI-JHONES of CENTCOM used to say). Damn it they are not hotels there and Lashkars of locals make sure it doesnt happen. Who is this guy bullshitting?

well, i am real, atleast no doubt abt that, my opinion, which i gave, was purely from a military point of view, no tthat i support drone attack in the sense that it violates our sovereignty and kills own civilians and everything else, i dont support it either...but purely from a MILITARY point of view, we hav got no other option left!!
...no civilian casualty...really, in ma AOO, am not talkin abt NWA or other places, am in SWA, there too in a specific place, where drones fly every time, atleast no civlians hav died here...!
...assumptions and bakwas which i write???....cant comment on this....!

[Panzer-kiel]

If you're a patriotic Pakistani, you too should be very concerned about the innocent deaths as a result of the drone strikes. Respect alone isn't enough. No matter what anyone says, a drone strike cannot distinguish between a terrorist or an innocent civilian. Fact is that drone missiles cause tremendous amount of collateral damage. A few militants are killed, but the majority of victims are innocent citizens. Many bipartisan organizations such as the Brookings Institution suggest that drone strikes kill "10 or so civilians" for every militant killed. Though, I understand where your support for the drone strikes originates from. The Pakistani military has generally stated that most of those killed were hardcore Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants. An unbelievably absurd claim without any substantiation.To make matters worse, many civilians have also been attacked in deliberate strikes on funerals and mourners. The strikes are carried out on the basis of human intelligence. Often, faulty intelligence provided by rouge anti-Pak elements to cause intentional carnage and bloodshed. Not to mention that the use of US drones contravenes international humanitarian law. The CIA is running a covert program that is killing significant numbers of people and there is absolutely no accountability in terms of the relevant international laws. Besides, which country on this planet allows another foreign country to obliterate its sovereignty? The CIA could care less about the loss of innocent Pakistani lives and are more than trigger happy. On a different note, the insurgents use the locals as shields. The innocent locals don't provide help to the insurgents.

• Who has stopped the Pakistan army from using home made drones against insurgents for intelligence gathering?
• Who has stopped the Pakistan army from using home made armed drones to carry out precision strikes?
• Who has stopped the Pakistan army from conducting ground operations to take out militants?
• Why does the Pakistani civilian leadership and establishment lie to its people about sovereignty violation when it has reached a secret deal with the Americans?
• Why does Pakistan provide intelligence information to the US while publicly the Pakistani government continues to condemn and deny the attacks?
• Why is the entire drone drama staged around lies and deception if the strikes are so helpful in eliminating terrorists?

We wonder why we're in such a mess, but it's no coincidence. We've to stop picking sides, be sincere and learn to stand on our own feet. Solution is to start taking care of our own problems instead of outsourcing them in exchange for military and economic aid. The crux of the problem is that our leaders are insincere, characterless and incompetent. Our leaders are profiting from the innocent blood of their own people. The whole world is a witness.

we shud hav developed own drones a long tym ago, right after 9-11 when their use began widespread....but i dont know whts so technical and complex abt making one...(am sure there must be somthin our engineers cant master)....last tym, we were given an OWN drone, having a 14.1 MP camera, a movie cam, and an alt of 1000 AGL, fact is, its pic and vid quality was poor, and it flew too low in the mountains to be shot down easily!
....we regularly conduct ground ops, and they r successful, but then the terrain is such which facilitates mov by small parties......they get killed also, ofcourse, but they also hide for a long tym, if they want to!
....lies r everywhere, i mean it does seem as though the govt has some secret deal whereas they hav allowed all kinds of drone attacks to take place...but for the nation, they always say that we r tryin to stop them etc etc....ofcourse, they hav to keep the nation happy too....and the US also realizes its all drama, so they just continue with their strikes!

...one thing which is important is that.....the militants that drones target and kill.....they are....mostly.....the ones who operate against americans in Afghanistan and then take refuge on our side....mind u, the militants when matter most to us, they are hardly targeted, sometimes yes, but not everytime......mostly uzbeks and arabians...!

[Caesar]

I am totally with you Panzer. Frankly if the locals are willing to let these terrorists use their homes and then the same terrorists kill our soldiers as far as I am concerned kill the f* out of these so called civilians. They really, really deserve to be blown to pieces.

PA should have its own drones and fly them 24x7 and target and destroy every home that provides shelter to these terrorists. End of story.

[Panzer-kiel]

I am totally with you Panzer. Frankly if the locals are willing to let these terrorists use their homes and then the same terrorists kill our soldiers as far as I am concerned kill the f* out of these so called civilians. They really, really deserve to be blown to pieces.

PA should have its own drones and fly them 24x7 and target and destroy every home that provides shelter to these terrorists. End of story.

Once, 4 of my buddies got shahadat, they were doing BD of the route, they were properly ambushed by RPGs getting direct hits, and then point blank fire from small arms....later it transpired that the enemy party which ambushed them had spent the night inside some homes, behind one of my deployed company, then used a route which was normally used by civilians, shepherds etc.....well, i couldnt do anything....i mean...!

[sobank]

you are sister of a terrorist. your brother has come home and your father has ordered you to make his bed, prepare his food etc.
Now tell me what are your choices???


A simple question which will easily test how much do you really know FATA or Pakistan in general and how much are you in contact with reality of Pakistan. Also how much of hypocrate you really are?

So please all you "Kill the damn civilians"ers, hit me with your analysis on above question. I need to see how much you think before saying the first thing that comes to your mind.

Sorry for condesending attitude but you people really ask for it.

[Panzer-kiel]

you are sister of a terrorist. your brother has come home and your father has ordered you to make his bed, prepare his food etc.
Now tell me what are your choices???


A simple question which will easily test how much do you really know FATA or Pakistan in general and how much are you in contact with reality of Pakistan. Also how much of hypocrate you really are?

So please all you "Kill the damn civilians"ers, hit me with your analysis on above question. I need to see how much you think before saying the first thing that comes to your mind.

Sorry for condesending attitude but you people really ask for it.

xactly, the problem is THAT complex...its all really like family, the civilians, they dont hav much choice, i mean, between army and their relatives, ofcourse they will give all necessary help and shelter to their loved ones....and then, killing them is not the solution at all, it will worsen it.....
....no need to be sorry for your attitude....most of us hav the same feelings like you do ....!

[EagleHannan]

I am totally with you Panzer. Frankly if the locals are willing to let these terrorists use their homes and then the same terrorists kill our soldiers as far as I am concerned kill the f* out of these so called civilians. They really, really deserve to be blown to pieces.

PA should have its own drones and fly them 24x7 and target and destroy every home that provides shelter to these terrorists. End of story.

Hold you horses Ceaser brother, we are same as patriotic as you are and please I say again, its one man telling his side of the story and the pictures coming out of Waziristan of small children buried under rubble, people losing limbs and lives lost to kill ONE target which US believes is the target without ANY proof to even Pakistani authorities is an ACT OF WAR. Unload your ammo on the violators of our air space. This guy is telling you stories which are NOT i repeat NOT verified nor there are similar stories coming out from any other person. I dont want to swear but the stories I am getting from MILITARY attaché here and my relatives deployed on the ground are DIFFERENT in sound, sequences and narration. Please understand the people, the situation of the area and imagine the state of people there. Lets be loyal to Allah first and then to this country and our beloved (past tense) army.

Once, 4 of my buddies got shahadat, they were doing BD of the route, they were properly ambushed by RPGs getting direct hits, and then point blank fire from small arms....later it transpired that the enemy party which ambushed them had spent the night inside some homes, behind one of my deployed company, then used a route which was normally used by civilians, shepherds etc.....well, i couldnt do anything....i mean...!

Ann haan... seems like a scene from a movie with a very bad action director. RPG hitting and then small arms firing @ point blank!!. Alright, please elaborate the point blank here. Was it before or after RPGs hitting. damn it are we supposed to say ohoho. PM me the names of your buddies, I publicaly promise to varify this story which from "military point of view"also is a B.S.

So who did the investigation? Do you have time for that, or the authority "ma homie" Can I also go tell locals we are Talibans and and want a night stay? Do they offer free Breakfast too? ohh and probably need to hire a window to install RPG or small arms to fire @ point blank from 150 yards away, cause after all I cant fire an RPG @ you from point blank, can I? Who told you which one is the militant and which one is not? Are you "Captain Pakistan" part of all operations? Cause seems like the stories get to you as if they want you to write a book on it.

Please hold your horses making up mind from the stories presented here. Drones are helping Pakistan Army, and they are OK with it (OK with salala too right Hommie) and they would fire on any home or building from where they even DREAM about getting a fire from in next million years.

These are the same lines and agenda and feelers thrown on this forum just a while ago from Centcom laantis. So should I assume we are hand in gloves with those gutter ranters against our own land? I guess this is where all his stories point to. Please read up last 10 of his posts in a sequence and you'll know how noble drones are and how low lives the locals are. I for one refuse it totally and say these are same as me, they are my brothers, my people and ma army needs to protect ma people than to rejoice killings by drones and telling me “I don’t wana shoot at drones?” If nothing else I want them to feel SHAME on telling the nation that they have someone rapping our airspace all day and night in front of their eyes from purely “military point of view”. I have some dignity left please gather yours and having some standards of believing in stories.

[Panzer-kiel]

Hold you horses Ceaser brother, we are same as patriotic as you are and please I say again, its one man telling his side of the story and the pictures coming out of Waziristan of small children buried under rubble, people losing limbs and lives lost to kill ONE target which US believes is the target without ANY proof to even Pakistani authorities is an ACT OF WAR. Unload your ammo on the violators of our air space. This guy is telling you stories which are NOT i repeat NOT verified nor there are similar stories coming out from any other person. I dont want to swear but the stories I am getting from MILITARY attaché here and my relatives deployed on the ground are DIFFERENT in sound, sequences and narration. Please understand the people, the situation of the area and imagine the state of people there. Lets be loyal to Allah first and then to this country and our beloved (past tense) army.



Ann haan... seems like a scene from a movie with a very bad action director. RPG hitting and then small arms firing @ point blank!!. Alright, please elaborate the point blank here. Was it before or after RPGs hitting. damn it are we supposed to say ohoho. PM me the names of your buddies, I publicaly promise to varify this story which from "military point of view"also is a B.S.

So who did the investigation? Do you have time for that, or the authority "ma homie" Can I also go tell locals we are Talibans and and want a night stay? Do they offer free Breakfast too? ohh and probably need to hire a window to install RPG or small arms to fire @ point blank from 150 yards away, cause after all I cant fire an RPG @ you from point blank, can I? Who told you which one is the militant and which one is not? Are you "Captain Pakistan" part of all operations? Cause seems like the stories get to you as if they want you to write a book on it.
Please hold your horses making up mind from the stories presented here. Drones are helping Pakistan Army, and they are OK with it (OK with salala too right Hommie) and they would fire on any home or building from where they even DREAM about getting a fire from in next million years. These are the same lines and agenda and feelers thrown on this forum just a while ago from Centcom laantis. So should I assume we are hand in gloves with those gutter ranters against our own land? I guess this is where all his stories point to. Please read up last 10 of his posts in a sequence and you'll know how noble drones are and how low lives the locals are. I for one refuse it totally and say these are same as me, they are my brothers, my people and ma army needs to protect ma people than to rejoice killings by drones and telling me “I don’t wana shoot at drones?” If nothing else I want them to feel SHAME on telling the nation that they have someone rapping our airspace all day and night in front of their eyes from purely “military point of view”. I have some dignity left please gather yours and having some standards of believing in stories.

ohoo....EagleHannan....let me again clarify my opinion regarding drones....as far as foreign drones hitting our civilians....am all against it, may be more than you....dont get me wrong on that....but...to change the wording.....drones are the solution to wherever guerilla warfare is being waged....that wht i want to say....again i am saying that i AM against foreign drones flying in our airspace and targetting our nationals...evrybody is against it.....
....my opinion is from the other point of view....that whether one would prefer men, arty or PAF to deal with these militants, so my answer is drones, thats all..nothing else.!
....dont get offended that easily, situations like these have happened before also at this forum with the end result being that the entire topic gets to somewhere else.....!!
....we all are here to discuss things to lets discuss, and please, i advise u dont take me wrong at all...and dont jump to conclusions that easily and quickly......fauj k itne bure din bhi nahi aaye......!

[BaburMissile]

we shud hav developed own drones a long tym ago, right after 9-11 when their use began widespread....but i dont know whts so technical and complex abt making one...(am sure there must be somthin our engineers cant master)....last tym, we were given an OWN drone, having a 14.1 MP camera, a movie cam, and an alt of 1000 AGL, fact is, its pic and vid quality was poor, and it flew too low in the mountains to be shot down easily!
....we regularly conduct ground ops, and they r successful, but then the terrain is such which facilitates mov by small parties......they get killed also, ofcourse, but they also hide for a long tym, if t
....lies r everywhere, i mean it does seem as though the govt has some secret deal whereas they hav allowed all kinds of drone attacks to take place...but for the nation, they always say that we r tryin to stop them etc etc....ofcourse, they hav to keep the nation happy too....and the US also realizes its all drama, so they just continue with their strikes!

...one thing which is important is that.....the militants that drones target and kill.....they are....mostly.....the ones who operate against americans in Afghanistan and then take refuge on our side....mind u, the militants when matter most to us, they are hardly targeted, sometimes yes, but not everytime......mostly uzbeks and arabians...!

The last time I heard Pakistani companies were supplying drones for surveillance to other countries. We already have a mature industry which could supply state of the art drones for this purpose. The Americans are using Pakistani made drones to track illegal immigrants crossing their borders. It just doesn't add up. The Pak army seeks US military aid. The government seeks US economic aid.

I'm not buying this argument anymore. Yes, the border is difficult etc., but it's the task of our government and security establishment to secure it. Again, the locals live in these places. Don't expect them to leave their livelihoods. The locals don't provide shelter to insurgents. The insurgents use the locals as shields. Unless Pakistan doesn't properly secure the border area this problem of insurgents crossing over can never be resolved. In short, the war can never end.

Not good enough. Why would the government and the army have to lie to its own people if the drone attacks are such a legitimate, legal and effective tool in taking out the insurgents? The answer is very clear. The drone strikes are illegal, immoral and highly ineffective. The bitter truth is that this war cannot be won militarily. Diplomacy and a political settlement are the solution. The Taliban/AQ insurgents were always amongst us. After all, we made them with the help of our dear American allies. Now, a bloody decade has passed and we haven't achieved anything. Let's get real. Even the Americans have started negotiating with the Taliban, but here we're hellbent on allowing more drone strikes on our own soil. This is sheer madness.

[Panzer-kiel]

The last time I heard Pakistani companies were supplying drones for surveillance to other countries. We already have a mature industry which could supply state of the art drones for this purpose. The Americans are using Pakistani made drones to track illegal immigrants crossing their borders. It just doesn't add up. The Pak army seeks military aid.

I'm not buying this argument anymore. Yes, the border is difficult etc., but it's the task of our government and security establishment to secure it. Again, the locals live in these places. Don't expect them to leave their livelihoods. The locals don't provide shelter to insurgents. The insurgents use the locals as shields. Unless Pakistan doesn't properly secure the border area this problem of insurgents crossing over can never be resolved. In short, the war can never end.

Not good enough. Why would the government and the army have to lie to its own people if the drone attacks are such a legitimate, legal and effective tool in taking out the insurgents? The answer is very clear. The drone strikes are illegal, immoral and highly ineffective. The bitter truth is that this war cannot be won militarily. Diplomacy and a political settlement are the solution. The Taliban/AQ insurgents were always amongst us. After all, we made them with the help of our dear American allies. Now, a bloody decade has passed and we haven't achieved anything. Let's get real. Even the Americans have started negotiating with the Taliban, but here we're hellbent on allowing more drone strikes on our own soil. This is sheer madness.

this one point always misses me, why would we export military hardware to other countries when we still need it alot...drones, AGLs, anti-pers RPGs etc....i mean we are making these things, but somehow our frontline units are not getting these hi tech things, doesnt make any sense!
....otherwise, one thing is clear, as us said, there is no end this conflict through military means!

[Caesar]

you are sister of a terrorist. your brother has come home and your father has ordered you to make his bed, prepare his food etc.
Now tell me what are your choices???


A simple question which will easily test how much do you really know FATA or Pakistan in general and how much are you in contact with reality of Pakistan. Also how much of hypocrate you really are?

So please all you "Kill the damn civilians"ers, hit me with your analysis on above question. I need to see how much you think before saying the first thing that comes to your mind.

Sorry for condesending attitude but you people really ask for it.

You want Army to clean up the mess and than you want them to be considerate and nice?? Sorry Sobank but you do not understand the meaning of army or war. Army is not a bunch of "Hippies" or 'Doctors without frontiers' ..... there are professionals who are trained to "Cleanse". By asking then to be considerate to civilians who shelter terrorists is like tying their hands and feet and than asking them to swim. By raising such questions as above you are making the situation complicated, whereas the situation itself is not 'complicated'.

Your 'condesending attitude' is due to you simply denying the ground realities.

[Panzer-kiel]

EagleHannan, Sobank and Caesar, request all of you to please give it a break, i can see where this topic is heading towards and what will be its ultimate outcome....lets please stick to the topic and discuss some meaningful things......we all are well aware what is the problem and where does it lie....lets not discuss that, lets write some positive and constructive things which can help us solve these problems...this in-fighting wont help any of us....!

[EagleHannan]

this one point always misses me, why would we export military hardware to other countries when we still need it alot...drones, AGLs, anti-pers RPGs etc....i mean we are making these things, but somehow our frontline units are not getting these hi tech things, doesnt make any sense! ....otherwise, one thing is clear, as us said, there is no end this conflict through military means!

Answer is simple, the drones we are making and yes exporting, are not hunter killers. They are surveilance drones, Also we are in the process of making a missle small and light enough to be carried by our MALE UAVs which have good endurance and payload thats it. There are options, even Chinese ones, all in the process. We already have OTH capability for control of these drones via sat links. Production time is another story.

Panzir said "we had to make the drones immediately after 9/11 when its use was widespread" Well thats not the case, firstly there was no wide spread use of drones back then and also the hunter killer role for these were defined much later after 9/11. Surveilance and target drones were in use by PA much earlier but were not as wide spread. In the indoPak scenario they were sufficent. No hunter killer drone is safe from a GHERATMUND army nor their cost was justified then for Pakistan Army which was to fight a conventional war in forseeable future. They were developed by US originaly for control of their operations in Africa, Iraq and Afghanistan, against nations with little or no surface to air threat. Pakistan is the ONLY nation with Surface to Air capability against which the drones are used. Even their most modern surveilance drones were shot down or temperred with by neighbouring Iran.

The aircraft requirement for true hunter killer role as a UAV is technically different from surveilance. They need to fly higher, so, long thin wings, highly effecient motors and OTH realtime datalink along with excellent optical and Nav equipment is required. Not to forget a missle for attack. This is not as simple as a big drone flying carrying bukter shiken attacking targets. We dont have this R&D capability along with such small targeting, Nav and Optical solution in one pod. The US drones are part of a complex information web which we can not master nor can deploy in the near future unless we have other subsystems in place. The main driver of this drone programs are sat links.

Solution: Use our own high endurance UAVs to monitor area and then attack enemy with the strategy of our own choosing and the place of own choosing. The drone can be complemented by 2 attack choopers. Target will not escape in 30 min window, no matter what. It is an effective solution. A low tech hunter killer solution. Just the 2 roles are taken by 2 platforms.

Real solution: Dont make our own people our enemies, respect them as we respect of our own lives and our own mall and our own aulad. Listen to what our Allah said in dealing with kuffar and remember his promise. Make proper truce with locals and this time dont let US drone strike break that truce.

As for the God forsaken F-16s @ the cost of our blood. Use them to shoot down drones than show willingness for rape of our motherland IF THERE is SOME GHEIRAT left. They are not suitable for such warfare anyways so willingness or not doesnt matters.

[Panzer-kiel]

Answer is simple, the drones we are making and yes exporting, are not hunter killers. They are surveilance drones, Also we are in the process of making a missle small and light enough to be carried by our MALE UAVs which have good endurance and payload thats it. There are options, even Chinese ones, all in the process. We already have OTH capability for control of these drones via sat links. Production time is another story.

Panzir said "we had to make the drones immediately after 9/11 when its use was widespread" Well thats not the case, firstly there was no wide spread use of drones back then and also the hunter killer role for these were defined much later after 9/11. Surveilance and target drones were in use by PA much earlier but were not as wide spread. In the indoPak scenario they were sufficent. No hunter killer drone is safe from a GHERATMUND army nor their cost was justified then for Pakistan Army which was to fight a conventional war in forseeable future. They were developed by US originaly for control of their operations in Africa, Iraq and Afghanistan, against nations with little or no surface to air threat. Pakistan is the ONLY nation with Surface to Air capability against which the drones are used. Even their most modern surveilance drones were shot down or temperred with by neighbouring Iran.

The aircraft requirement for true hunter killer role as a UAV is technically different from surveilance. They need to fly higher, so, long thin wings, highly effecient motors and OTH realtime datalink along with excellent optical and Nav equipment is required. Not to forget a missle for attack. This is not as simple as a big drone flying carrying bukter shiken attacking targets. We dont have this R&D capability along with such small targeting, Nav and Optical solution in one pod. The US drones are part of a complex information web which we can not master nor can deploy in the near future unless we have other subsystems in place. The main driver of this drone programs are sat links.

Solution: Use our own high endurance UAVs to monitor area and then attack enemy with the strategy of our own choosing and the place of own choosing. The drone can be complemented by 2 attack choopers. Target will not escape in 30 min window, no matter what. It is an effective solution. A low tech hunter killer solution. Just the 2 roles are taken by 2 platforms.

Real solution: Dont make our own people our enemies, respect them as we respect of our own lives and our own mall and our own aulad. Listen to what our Allah said in dealing with kuffar and remember his promise. Make proper truce with locals and this time dont let US drone strike break that truce.

As for the God forsaken F-16s @ the cost of our blood. Use them to shoot down drones than show willingness for rape of our motherland IF THERE is SOME GHEIRAT left. They are not suitable for such warfare anyways so willingness or not doesnt matters.

..good analysis, completely agreed....a separate arm for these Drones should be organised so that they are employed and researched independently instead of coming under any party's influence which may stop even their necessary use etc....surveillance capability, including FLIR and TI would go a long way in helping us, whether it be conventional or unconventional war.....plus if somehow we manage to install BS or TOWs on them, then we got an all-round killer....!

[platinum786]

The only option we have is to pull out of this war. If we are not involved in this war, if we aren't sending supplies and allowing airspace to the Americans, we are just as culpible as them in this war. If we cut off support to them, what we then need is agreement from the tribes, not to get involved, militarily in Afghanistan, and to turn their backs on the militant groups, i exchange for total cut off of Americans from Pakistan. Even then we will still face two problems;

1, The American drone strikes will continue - BUT we can start shooting these down, and help get the message across that it is over
2. Some militants will still use the border - but it will be reduced numbers

Right now, our issue is like a bottomless pit, any energy will go into it to no avail, we need to add a bottom to it.

We have other failings too, our military stragegy is weak, it's the same stupid one employed by the Americans. The only way brute force can win this conflict is through mass genocide of the militants and the tribal people who are their support network. That is an unacceptable solution to everyone, one that would see Pakistan destroyed by Pakistani's itself.

This is a new war, and we are STILL not equipped for it,

- We are short on intelligence, who is a militant, where do they live, who pays them, who funds that person, where are they training, what are they planning.
- We are short of equipment to carry out precision strikes, like mentioned by EagleHannan.

The American drones are precision equipment, but it is used in a gung-ho manner, they don't care who they kill, because they won't be paying the price for it, we are paying the price for it.

[Panzer-kiel]

well, then we just pull out of this conflict, then pull out the army...to prepare for the inevitable attack from the West....a military bloc with Iran and China which would be a good enough deal....what do you think Plat?

[BaburMissile]

You want Army to clean up the mess and than you want them to be considerate and nice?? Sorry Sobank but you do not understand the meaning of army or war. Army is not a bunch of "Hippies" or 'Doctors without frontiers' ..... there are professionals who are trained to "Cleanse". By asking then to be considerate to civilians who shelter terrorists is like tying their hands and feet and than asking them to swim. By raising such questions as above you are making the situation complicated, whereas the situation itself is not 'complicated'.

Your 'condesending attitude' is due to you simply denying the ground realities.

The solution is to clean up the mess along with a political settlement. Most importantly, Pakistan must quit the American alliance. The alliance has cost Pakistan severely. Secondly, miscreants that want to lay down their arms must be given a chance to reintegrate within the society. Foreign fighters must be handed over to their respective nations. Miscreants opting otherwise must be confronted and eliminated. Though, as brother plat has pointed out, we don't even entirely know who is sponsoring the miscreants at this point in time. The situation is very complicated and we're partly responsible. The enemy has many faces.

The locals are simply caught up in the whole mess. All these years the GoP left the locals to fend for themselves. Naturally, the tribal area became a breeding ground. The bitter truth is that our leaders turned a blind eye. Even when certain rouge states such as Afghanistan and India started interfering and sponsoring anti-Pak activities. It's too late now to blame the locals and cry over spilled milk. Instead of worsening an already dire conflict we must keep all options on the table. After all, even the Americans are now willing to hold talks with the Taliban. Why has the Pak army all these years resisted from going into the tribal areas despite tremendous Yankee pressure? The Pakistan army learned its lesson after carrying out failed operations in the tribal areas. The colossal loss of life along with alienating the locals isn't worth the effort. There is no military solution to this conflict. A decade's worth of bloodshed should have taught us long ago. Instead, a lot more effort should be made to secure the porous borders which is the source of instability in the first place.

[Panzer-kiel]

...nothing meaningful and satisfactory came out of Korean War, Vietnam War and the Russian War in Afghanistan.....to call in the Armed Forces is not an option at all, calling them means you have exhausted all your available options and now you dont have any way out, so you resort to strong and brute tactics!

[blueazure]

i can confirm that pak made drones satisfied most of army's requirement ( endurance , height etc ) and general ruggedness trials. the area where they lacked were hi zoom gyro stabilized cameras, that too could have been mastered had not a ***** opted for a far more expensive German system where commissions were lucrative

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[Caesar]

Pakistan made UAVs are for survelliance only. They do not have the capability yet to carry weapons.