23 replies to this topic

[Martian]

Beijing SHOTS » J-10 fighters take to the sky

J-10 fighters take to the sky
by Kalinda on February 17, 2012


Two J-10 fighters fly in formation during an aerial display staged by the Bayi aerobatic team for the media in North China’s Hebei province. The Bayi aerobatic team of the People’s Liberation Army Air force, with nearly 50 years of history, is well known as China’s “guard of honor in the blue sky”.  The J-10 is a China-made multirole combat aircraft capable of all-weather operations. [Photo/Asianewsphoto]


A J-10 fighter performs during an aerial display staged by the Bayi aerobatic team for the media in North China’s Hebei province. [Photo/Asianewsphoto]


Six J-10 fighters fly in formation during an aerial display staged by the Bayi aerobatic team for the media in North China’s Hebei province. [Photo/Asianewsphoto]


A J-10 pilot gestures after landing during an aerial display staged by the Bayi aerobatic team for the media in North China’s Heibei province. [Photo/Asianewsphoto]


Pilots suit up for an aerial display staged by the Bayi aerobatic team for the media in North China’s Hebei province in early February. [Photo/Asianewsphoto]


A J-10 fighter in front of the setting sun during an aerial display staged by the Bayi aerobatic team for the media in North China’s Hebei province in early February. [Photo/Asianewsphoto]

[Martian]

J-10B Vigorous Dragon carries missiles and extra fuel pods to extend its flight range


J-10B Vigorous Dragon carries missiles and extra fuel pods to extend its flight range.


J-10B Vigorous Dragon with domestic WS-10A turbofan engine.


The J-10B has an advanced diverterless supersonic intake (DSI).

[Note: Thank you to Aimarraul for the pictures.]

[Martian]

J-10A and J-10B Vigorous Dragon evolution


The top photo is a J-10A with AL-31F engine. The second and third photos show a J-10B with DSI intake and AL-31F engine. The fourth photo is a J-10B with China's domestic WS-10A engine.

This sequence of pictures illustrates the evolution of the J-10 family from a J-10A (with AL-31F engine) into a J-10B with advanced DSI technology and WS-10A engine.

In the sequence of photographs, it is easy to distinguish between the AL-31F and WS-10A engines. The "flexible petals" on the WS-10A are a lot shorter than on the AL-31F.


Comparison of Chinese WS-10A (top) and Russian AL-31F (bottom) jet engines.

[Note: Thank you to HouShanghai for the first picture and Maya for the engine comparison picture.]

[Martian]

J-10B Vigorous Dragon with WS-10A engine


Parked J-10B with WS-10A engine


A closer look at J-10B with WS-10A engine

[Note: Thank you to HouShanghai for the pictures.]

[Dizasta]

(Martian) When, in your opinion, do you think that China would start full scale production of the WS-10A Taihan engines? Also, is there any update on WS-13 Taishan engines, which were being test-flown on FC-1 Xiaolong/JF-17 Thunder. I have searched Chinese Defense Forums, but haven't found any pictures, articles or updates on the status of WS-13 Taishan engines.

I ask this, as I see the rapid progress that is being made on the WS-10 engines and as such, I would've thought that a similar progress would've been made on the WS-13 engines. By the way, are both the engines from the same engine manufacturer/designer?

Also, I read on Sino-Defense, that there are talks of WS-15 engines, which are touted to power the J-20s.

With so many new fighters under development, like J-11B, J-10B, J-20 and J-15 ....... Would the WS-10s power all three (J-10, J-11 & J-15) aircraft? Also, there are also rumors of a Shenyang Stealth Fighter which is under development and is expected to be unveiled soon. Any certainty of such a fighter being planned by Shenyang?

[Martian]

Dizasta, on 14 March 2012 - 06:18 PM, said:

(Martian) When, in your opinion, do you think that China would start full scale production of the WS-10A Taihan engines? Also, is there any update on WS-13 Taishan engines, which were being test-flown on FC-1 Xiaolong/JF-17 Thunder. I have searched Chinese Defense Forums, but haven't found any pictures, articles or updates on the status of WS-13 Taishan engines.

I ask this, as I see the rapid progress that is being made on the WS-10 engines and as such, I would've thought that a similar progress would've been made on the WS-13 engines. By the way, are both the engines from the same engine manufacturer/designer?

Also, I read on Sino-Defense, that there are talks of WS-15 engines, which are touted to power the J-20s.

With so many new fighters under development, like J-11B, J-10B, J-20 and J-15 ....... Would the WS-10s power all three (J-10, J-11 & J-15) aircraft? Also, there are also rumors of a Shenyang Stealth Fighter which is under development and is expected to be unveiled soon. Any certainty of such a fighter being planned by Shenyang?

1. WS-10A engines are already in mass production (see picture below).


Shenyang WS-10A turbofan engines in mass production

2. WS-13 engine was certified in 2007 and mass production began in 2009.


Guizhou Aircraft Industry Corporation WS-13 turbofan engine

http://en.wikipedia....i/Guizhou_WS-13

"The WS-13 Taishan was certified in 2007 and serial production began in 2009.[citation needed] The 18 March 2010 edition of the HKB report stated that a FC-1 equipped with the WS-13 completed its first successful runway taxi test.[2]

Officials at the Farnborough International Airshow in August 2010 stated that a JF-17 development aircraft is flying with a Chinese engine, which is most likely to be the WS-13.[3]

Variants

WS-13 - 86 kilonewtons (19,000 lbf) thrust with afterburner.[1]
WS-13 (upgraded) - 100 kilonewtons (22,000 lbf) thrust with afterburner.[1]"

3. Shenyang designed the WS-10A engine. Guizhou Aircraft Industry Corporation designed the WS-13 engine.

4. According to GlobalSecurity, the WS-15 core engine was first tested in April 2005 (see http://www.globalsec.../china/ws15.htm). According to Richard Fisher at International Assessment and Strategy Center, the WS-15 prototype engine was ready around 2009 (see http://www.strategyc.../pub_detail.asp).

There are two prototype J-20 Mighty Dragon stealth aircraft. One of the J-20s is equipped with Russian AL-31F engines. The other J-20 is equipped with Chinese engines.


The silver engines on the left are domestic Chinese turbofan engines. They could be a WS-10 variant or the WS-15 engine. The dark engines on the right are Russian AL-31F engines.

5. Could the WS-10A engine power the J-10, J-11B, and J-15 aircraft? The answer is "yes" if two conditions are met. Firstly, Chinese production of WS-10A engines must be sufficient to meet the demand (including production of parts for maintenance and replacement engines at the end of the expected lifetime) for all three aircraft.

Secondly, I don't know if WS-10A engines are interchangeable with AL-31F engines. If they are not readily interchangeable without modifying the fuselage then the current fighters with AL-31F engines will most likely stay with AL-31F replacement engines.


J-10B Vigorous Dragon flying with WS-10A engines


J-11B flying with WS-10A engines


J-15 Flying Shark with WS-10A engines

6. There is a picture of a Shenyang stealth fighter (see below). However, it is incorrect.


China would not build another twin-engine stealth fighter. Instead, China would most likely build a single-engine stealth fighter to complement the J-20 Mighty Dragon for a high-low mix.

[Dizasta]

Martian, on 14 March 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

1. WS-10A engines are already in mass production (see picture below). Shenyang WS-10A turbofan engines in mass production.

So this could mean that FC-1 Xiaolong/JF-17 Thunder's next production batch would be powered by WS-13 Taishan engines. But which one? Would it be the WS-13 with 85KN of thrust, or the 100KN of thrust?

I wonder if you can recall, that when Pakistan Air Force firmed up orders for F-7P Airguards, one particular batch engines were exclusively for operating near Sea Ports such as Karachi and Ormara. These engines were less corrosion-prone to the tough weather conditions Pakistan Air Force faces, operating over or near the Arabian Sea Coastline. On those lines, could it be, that the two different classes of the WS-13 Taishan engines, be for that particular purpose?

Following the news of full rate production of the WS-13 Taishan, would it be safe to assume that the new batch of JF-17 Thunders, being built at CAC facility, would incorporate the new engine on the fighter aircraft? Also, considering the magnitude of investment by Pakistan, on the JF-17 Thunders, one wonders why is that PAC is not taking charge and establishing a road map toward full-rate production of the FC-1 Xiaolong/JF-17 Thunder.

Quote

4. According to GlobalSecurity, the WS-15 core engine was first tested in April 2005 (see http://www.globalsec.../china/ws15.htm). According to Richard Fisher at International Assessment and Strategy Center, the WS-15 prototype engine was ready around 2009 (see http://www.strategyc.../pub_detail.asp).

That is an impressive achievement by China. Since the WS-15 has been around since 2009, would it be safe to say that characteristically, this would have inherent capability of Super-Cruise? And considering that this is a newer engine in development, would it be safe to assume that the WS-15 engines would be developed, keeping the J-20's stealth in mind?

Quote

Secondly, I don't know if WS-10A engines are interchangeable with AL-31F engines. If they are not readily interchangeable without modifying the fuselage then the current fighters with AL-31F engines will most likely stay with AL-31F replacement engines.

I think it is a fair assessment on your part and a prudent one on China's part, to keep the AL-31F engine aircraft, the same and WS-10A engine aircraft a different class altogether.

It is clear that since all three types of aircraft will use WS-10 Taihan, that there would be three different variants of the engine. Especially the variant for J-15, which would be operating at sea and would require an anti-corrosion specific engine.

On a different note, I still believe that China should look into developing an advance variant of the JH-7s. One that has a more powerful engine, possibly stealth characteristics and capability to operate at sea and over land. I believe that this strike-fighter has a lot more to offer to PLAAF and PLANAF and has yet to fully realize it's potential. Keeping Taiwan and Vietnam in mind, JH-7 would prove to be highly versatile and dependent strike-fighter.

[Martian]

Dizasta, on 15 March 2012 - 03:17 AM, said:

So this could mean that FC-1 Xiaolong/JF-17 Thunder's next production batch would be powered by WS-13 Taishan engines. But which one? Would it be the WS-13 with 85KN of thrust, or the 100KN of thrust?

I wonder if you can recall, that when Pakistan Air Force firmed up orders for F-7P Airguards, one particular batch engines were exclusively for operating near Sea Ports such as Karachi and Ormara. These engines were less corrosion-prone to the tough weather conditions Pakistan Air Force faces, operating over or near the Arabian Sea Coastline. On those lines, could it be, that the two different classes of the WS-13 Taishan engines, be for that particular purpose?

Following the news of full rate production of the WS-13 Taishan, would it be safe to assume that the new batch of JF-17 Thunders, being built at CAC facility, would incorporate the new engine on the fighter aircraft? Also, considering the magnitude of investment by Pakistan, on the JF-17 Thunders, one wonders why is that PAC is not taking charge and establishing a road map toward full-rate production of the FC-1 Xiaolong/JF-17 Thunder.



That is an impressive achievement by China. Since the WS-15 has been around since 2009, would it be safe to say that characteristically, this would have inherent capability of Super-Cruise? And considering that this is a newer engine in development, would it be safe to assume that the WS-15 engines would be developed, keeping the J-20's stealth in mind?



I think it is a fair assessment on your part and a prudent one on China's part, to keep the AL-31F engine aircraft, the same and WS-10A engine aircraft a different class altogether.

It is clear that since all three types of aircraft will use WS-10 Taihan, that there would be three different variants of the engine. Especially the variant for J-15, which would be operating at sea and would require an anti-corrosion specific engine.

On a different note, I still believe that China should look into developing an advance variant of the JH-7s. One that has a more powerful engine, possibly stealth characteristics and capability to operate at sea and over land. I believe that this strike-fighter has a lot more to offer to PLAAF and PLANAF and has yet to fully realize it's potential. Keeping Taiwan and Vietnam in mind, JH-7 would prove to be highly versatile and dependent strike-fighter.

1. The terms of the contract between Pakistan and China are classified. Whether the 85-KN WS-13 or the 100KN variant is installed will be dependent on the terms of the contract.

2. I think it's a safe bet that China's J-20 Mighty Dragon will have supercruise by its IOC date of 2018 (see citation below).

J-20 has supercruise feature

J-20 stealth fighter jet technology 'innovative' - People's Daily Online

"J-20 stealth fighter jet technology 'innovative'
08:33, January 25, 2011

Chinese defense officials and military analysts insisted Monday that the country's J-20 stealth fighter jet is a result of technological innovation, refuting a report that alleges the aircraft was developed out of technology gleaned from a downed US fighter.

J-20 stealth fighter jet

A Croatian admiral who served during the Kosovo War told the AP on Sunday that China formulated the technology for its J-20 jet from a F-117 Nighthawk stealth fighter that was shot down over Serbia in 1999.

"At the time, our intelligence reports told of Chinese agents criss-crossing the region where the F-117 disintegrated, buying up parts of the plane from local farmers," Admiral Davor Domazet-Loso was quoted as saying. "We believe the Chinese used those materials to gain an insight into secret stealth technologies."

An official at the Ministry of National Defense who declined to be named told the Global Times that "it's not the first time foreign media has smeared newly unveiled Chinese military technologies. It's meaningless to respond to such speculations."

China successfully debuted the J-20 in Chengdu, Sichuan Province, earlier this month. The test flight coincided with US Defense Secretary Robert Gates' visit to Beijing, but he was assured the timing was just a coincidence.

Following the successful test flight, speculations and assessments of Beijing's military advancement could be heard throughout the world.

Xu Yongling, one of China's top test pilots, told the Global Times that the J-20 possesses an advanced supersonic cruise ability and powerful air mobility that are technological breakthroughs for the country.

"Different from previous fighters such as the J-7 and J-8, which drew on the merits of aircrafts from other countries, the J-20 is a masterpiece of China's technological innovation," Xu said, comparing the stealth jet to the US Air Force's F-22 Raptor stealth jet and Russia's first stealth fighter, the Sukhoi T-50.

Xu said it would have been impossible for China to glean technology from the US' F-117, whose stealth technology lags far behind fourth-generation fighters and was regarded as "outdated" even at the time when it was reportedly shot down.

And as for the radiation-absorbent, exterior coating technology adopted by the F-117, Xu said it would be hard to copy that technology from the wreckage due to its complicated production process.

Developed in the 1970s and commencing service in 1983, the F-117 Nighthawk was the world's first stealth fighter - nearly invisible to radar.

In March 1999, during NATO's aerial bombing of Serbia in the Kosovo War, a Serbian anti-aircraft missile shot one of the Nighthawks down. An editorial published by the Taiwan-based China Times on Saturday said that the shooting

Parts of the downed F-117 wreckage - including the left wing with the US Air Force insignia, the cockpit canopy, the ejection seat, the pilot's helmet and a radio - are exhibited at Belgrade's aviation museum, according to an AP report.

"I don't know what happened to the rest of the plane," said Zoran Milicevic, deputy director of the museum, according to the AP. "A lot of delegations visited us in the past, including the Chinese, Rus-sians and Americans ... but no one showed any interest in taking any part of the jet."

Wang Yanan, an associate editor in chief at Aerospace Knowledge magazine, told the Global Times that the F-117 could hardly have inspired the development of the J-20, due to the design differences between the two generations of fighters. He added that it is worthless to take an interest in obsolete technology for developing more state-of-art technologies.

"Despite being dubbed a stealth fighter, the F-117 functioned as a bomber because of its low speed and limited air attacking abilities, while the J-20, more resembling the F-22, is designed to have a powerful air attacking capability with a fast flying speed," Wang said.

Responding to the accusations about China's stealing of new technologies, Wang conceded that, as a forerunner for new technologies, the US can only provide a reference point for other countries but will never leak any details about the technologies, leaving many countries to develop weapons on their own or buy them from another country.

The US has, in recent years, stepped up its offensive against what it calls "Chinese tech spying." The FBI increased its agents assigned to counter alleged Chinese espionage from 150 in 2001 to more than 350 in 2007, USA Today reported.

Separately, Noshir Gowadia, an Indian-born former B-2 bomber engineer convicted of helping China design a stealth cruise missile, was due to be sentenced in court today.

Li Daguang, a Beijing-based military analyst, told the Global Times that such accusations are groundless and originate from envy and wariness of China's technological advancements.

"China not only has the freedom to develop high-end technologies but also the capability to develop them independently," he said.

Zhu Shanshan and Huang Jingjing contributed to this story

Source: Global Times"

[Note: Thank you to Brotherhood for the newslink.]

[Martian]

To conclude the discussion on the use of domestic WS-10A engines on the J-10, J-11B, and J-15, there is a new photograph of a J-11BS equipped with WS-10A engines.


"A [J-11BS] tandem twin-seat combat-capable training aircraft for J-11B pilots."

[Note: Thank you to SiegeCrossbow for the picture.]

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WS-10A engine for J-10B Vigorous Dragon fighter in mass production


WS-10A engine (with gearbox at the bottom) is designed to power the J-10B Vigorous Dragon fighter. This version of the WS-10A turbofan engine is said to have 13.2 ton maximum thrust. There are several wrapped engines near the floor.

[Note: Thank you to Pinko for the post.]

[Dizasta]

Wow, impressive, Masha-Allah!

[Martian]

In message to India, China tests new fighters near border - Rediff.com News

"In message to India, China tests new fighters near border
Last updated on: March 22, 2012 13:45 IST


A J-10 fighter jet of China Air Force (Photograph: Reuters)

China has conducted a massive military exercise in the high altitude Qinghai-Tibet Plateau, close to the disputed borders with India, during which it has for the first time tested the multi-role J-10 fighter jets.

The People's Liberation Army Air Force have conducted ground attack training over the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau, the "first operation of its kind", official media in Beijing reported.

According to a report and photos released by PLA Daily on Wednesday, the ground crew of J-10 regiment fuelled the fighters and loaded ammunition on the 3,500-meter-high plateau at temperatures below -20 C.

The fighters scrambled and attacked the targets with conventional as well as laser-guided bombs. Sorties were made both during the day and at night, the report said.


J-10 fighter jets of China Air Force fly at Yangcun Air Force base on the outskirts of Tianjin municipality (Photograph: Reuters)

It was the second time that the official media released photos of the home made J-10 fighter using laser-guided bombs. The exercises were highlighted on Thursday by another official daily -- The Global Times.

The rare display of the news about exercises was seen as a message to the Indian side, which is also beefing up its border regions along the Line of Actual Control by deploying its top end fighter aircraft.

The J-10, which was also being sold to Pakistan, took part in exercises in October last conducted by PLA incorporating air forces and air defence units as well as armour and artillery units in Tibet Autonomous Region.


A pilot sits in the cockpit of a J-10 fighter jet (Photograph: Reuters)

"The J-10 fighter was initially designed as an air superiority fighter, focusing on air combat and interception capability.

"But with modern sensors, avionics and land attack munitions, it can also perform well in ground attack roles," Bai Wei, former deputy chief editor of Aviation World Monthly told the state-run Global Times.

The J-10's activities on the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau have been relatively frequent in the past months, the newspaper said.

"Operations on the plateau are a routine for the air force. The main obstacles for plateau operation are thin air, complicated weather conditions faced by ground crews and low oxygen density, which makes igniting the engines much harder," Bai noted.


J-10 fighter jet aerobatic team of China Air Force fly in formation (Photograph: Reuters)

The J-10 fighters made their first flight during the Chinese Lunar New Year on the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau in January this year with a typical air combat patrol payload, namely two mid-range air-to-air missiles, two short-range air-to-air missiles, and three external fuel tanks.

The J-10's primary air combat weapon, the active radar homing mid-range missile dubbed as the PL-12, is a fourth generation radar-homing air-to-air missile, the daily said. It is generally comparable to the US AIM-120 missile, which has a good service record in past air combat missions, Daniel Tong, a Chinese military observer and founder of the website Chinese Military Aviation said.

The Chengdu J-10 fighter made its official debut in 2006. The aircraft has been delivered to the air force in large quantities along with the Shengyang J-11 two-engine heavy fighter, Tong said.

[Note: Thank you to Jayram for the newslink.

J-10 first flight was March 23, 1998. Production began in 2002.]

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China Air force holds live-ammunition drill on Tibetan Plateau

"Air force holds live-ammunition drill on Tibetan Plateau
(Chinanews.com)
15:42, March 19, 2012


The Air Force of the Chengdu Military Area Command holds a live-ammunition drill on Tibetan Plateau, where the early spring weather is still quite chilly. During the exercise, the air force for the first time carried out surgical strikes at night. (CNS Photo: Liu Chang)

[Martian]

J-10A Vigorous Dragon in live-fire Tibet exercise


J-10A opens parachute for landing in live-fire Tibet exercise. Time to rearm for another sortie!


J-10A in live-fire Tibet exercise flies overhead.

[Note: Thank you to Capricorn for the pictures.]

[Martian]

China's J-10A Vigorous Dragon is superior to French Rafale

China's J-10A flies higher, faster, and carry longer-range PL-12 AAM (air-to-air missile) than French Rafale.


The J-10A carries four PL-12 missiles with 70+ km range that can easily shoot down a French Rafale carrying shorter 50km range MICA missiles.

The J-10A has a service ceiling of 18,000m. The French Rafale has a lower service ceiling of 16,800m. For combat, the same missile launched at a higher altitude (such as 18,000m) will fly further.

For within-visual-range (WVR) combat, a J-10A can circle above and swoop down with guns blazing on a helpless French Rafale. On the other hand, a French Rafale cannot engage a high-flying J-10A at 18,000m (which is 1,200m beyond the French Rafale's service ceiling).

The J-10A can carry four PL-12 beyond-visual-range (BVR) missiles with 70+ km range. However, the MICA missile carried by the French Rafale has a much shorter 50km range (according to GlobalSecurity).

In fairness, I have elected not to cite the higher 100km range for the PL-12 (see http://www.strategyc.../pub_detail.asp).

The J-10A has a faster "maximum speed of Mach 2.2 at altitude" than the significantly slower "Mach 1.8+" for the French Rafale. This means the J-10A can fire its four PL-12 missiles at a French Rafale at 60km and fly home safely. The French Rafale's slower speed means it cannot chase down a J-10A.

The final point is the deadliness of China's PL-12 missiles.

http://society.ezine...2f1117fd74.html

"Its seven recent test firings all hit the targets.
...
Experts believe that domestic SD-10's performance has surpassed the U.S. AIM-120A/B, Russian R-77 and the French MICA (Missile d'Interception et de Combat Aerien), etc., and close to the AIM-120C."

[Note: PL-12/SD-10 refer to the same missile.]

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References (for Wikipedia articles, see primary source footnotes):

http://en.wikipedia....ons_.28J-10A.29

http://en.wikipedia....#Specifications

http://www.globalsec.../mica-specs.htm

[Tipu-786]

Beautiful Pictures Thanks Martian

[Martian]

Chinese AESA radar can detect a "clean" French Rafale at 140 to 200km range

China has KJ-2000 AWACS and KJ-200 AEW&C with AESA radar. There is already an ESA radar for Chinese fighter jets.

The KJ-200 AEW&C and KJ-2000 AWACS can detect a "clean" French Rafale at 140 to 200km range. This information can be transmitted to a J-10A, which can shoot down a French Rafale from 70km away.

Of course, in real combat, a "dirty" French Rafale will carry missiles, bombs, and/or drop tanks. Since the Rafale has no internal weapon bays, it will be detected far in excess of the 140 to 200km range for a "clean" Rafale.

China's KJ-2000 AWACS can detect a "clean" French Rafale at 200km. The citation is under "Section X" of Dr. Somnath's thread on French Rafale. I am assuming KJ-2000 has comparable performance to E3-C AWACS.


China's KJ-000 AEW&C can detect a "clean" French Rafale at 140km.  The citation is under "Section X" of Dr. Somnath's thread on French Rafale. I am assuming KJ-200 has comparable performance to E2-C Hawkeye.

China's electronically scanned array (ESA) radar. This could be AESA or PESA. It doesn't really matter. China possesses expertise with AESA technology in the KJ-2000 and KJ-200. The only issues are miniaturization, low-cost production, and reliability. Even if the depicted ESA radar is PESA, China is only one upgrade away from an AESA radar for the J-10.

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Citation:


Illustration from "Section X" of Dr. Somnath's thread on a "clean" French Rafale, which is not carrying missiles, bombs, or drop tanks. A "dirty" Rafale would have a RCS about ten times higher than the illustration.

[Martian]

Scenario: J-10A Vigorous Dragon engages Five French Rafales


J-10A carries four PL-12 AAMs (air-to-air missiles) that fly at Mach 4. (See China vs. Japan Military Match-Ups)

A Chinese KJ-2000 AWACS registers the presence of five French Rafales on its AESA radar at over 200km away. There is a single J-10A Vigorous Dragon nearby. Carrying four PL-12 AAMs, the single J-10A engages the five French Rafales at 70km.

The J-10A is beyond the range of the French Rafales' 50km (or 60km) range MICA missiles. The J-10A calmly fires all four PL-12s and shoots down four French Rafales. The J-10A banks and flies towards the nearest Chinese air base. The lone surviving Rafale gives chase, but its slow 1,800+ km top speed means the J-10A is receding into the distance.

Another J-10A is tasked to intercept the fifth and lone surviving Rafale. The Rafale pilot quickly flees to avoid coming into the 70 to 100km range of the J-10A's PL-12 missile.

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China's PL-12D ramjet BVRAAM

China has its own Meteor program.

Chinese Military Aviation | China Air Force

"Several improved versions have been under development at 607 Institute, including PL-12B with improved guidance system, PL-12C with foldable tailfins for internal carriage by the 4th generation fighters (e.g. J-20) and PL-12D with a belly air inlet and a ramjet motor for long range attack similar to PL-21 (see below)."

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China's KJ-2000 AWACS has a maximum range of 400km

China's KJ-2000 AWACS has a maximum range of 400km. In this thread, I have kindly said only "200km away." The actual KJ-2000 detection range is double that figure.

Kongjing-2000 (KJ-2000)

"The KJ-2000 is the latest Chinese early warning aircraft, comprised of domestically designed electronics and radar installed on a modified Ilyushin IL-76 airframe. The KJ-2000 system is based on the Russian A-50 airframe, and was said to use an indigenous phased array radar. It was reported that the system can track 60-100 aerial targets simultaneously at 400km away."

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Armed Rafale probably has RCS of 2 to 3m2

Only a "clean" Rafale has a sub-unit sq. meter RCS and probably only from the frontal aspect (e.g. not side aspect).

A "dirty" armed Rafale with missiles, bombs, or drop tanks will have approximately 2 to 3m2 RCS.

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China builds more KJ-2000s and KJ-200s to ensure air battle advantage

New KJ-2000 AWACS with yellow primer


New Chinese KJ-2000 AWACS (NATO reporting name: Mainring)


Close-up of new KJ-2000 AWACS

KJ-2000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Design

The current KJ-2000 AWACS in Chinese service is equipped with a domestic AESA (active electronically scanned array),[4] also known as active phased array, radar. The radar was designed by the Research Institute of Electronic Technology (also more commonly known as the 14th Institute) at Nanjing, and it utilizes the experience gained from the 14th Institute's earlier indigenously developed Type H/LJG-346 SAPARS (Shipborne Active Phased Array Radar System) that was completed in 1998. The same Type H/LJG-346 SAPARS was also the predecessor of the active phased array radar system equipping the PLAN Lanzhou class destroyers. The radar is arranged in the same way as that of the Beriev A-50I.[4]"

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This is at least the sixth KJ-2000 AWACS in the fleet.

Reference: "Five were estimated in service as of 2008." (see http://china.usc.edu...nflict 2008.pdf).

[Note: Thank you to Greyboy2 for the pictures.]

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http://chinesemilita...d-beam-aew.html

Chinese Y-8W / KJ-200 Balanced Beam AEW&C


New build Chinese Y-8W / KJ-200 Balanced Beam airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) undergoing pre-induction flight tests.

[vishwaprasad]

Martian can J-10 also take on MKI in BVR combat?

[Martian]

vishwaprasad, on 07 April 2012 - 02:21 AM, said:

Martian can J-10 detect also take on MKI in BVR combat?

The Su-30 MKI (with 20m2 RCS) is a non-stealthy fourth generation fighter. It is easily detectable by Chinese AWACS at very long distances (e.g. 400km range for an object with 5m2 RCS). The targeting information would be relayed to J-10 Vigorous Dragons and PL-12 missiles (with 70 to 100km range) will be fired at the Su-30 MKIs.

However, the J-10 is also a fourth generation aircraft. It is also susceptible to Indian AWACS, but I believe India has received delivery of only three Phalcon AWACS from Israel. China's first priority is to destroy those three Indian AWACS and tilt the detection range heavily in favor of the PLA Air Force.

In a war of attrition, China will easily win because it manufactures its own J-10 Vigorous Dragons and KJ-2000 AWACS in volume.

If the engagement occurs after 2018 (or in six short years), the stealthy J-20 Mighty Dragons will use the Su-30 MKIs for target practice. I know you will say that India will counter with the T-50/Pak Fa. Hopefully, India will insist on a radical redesign of the T-50/Pak Fa from its current 0.5 m2 RCS. Sending T-50s/Pak Fas against J-20 Mighty Dragons will be suicidal.

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Su-30 MKI has a RCS of 20m2 according to Russian Embassy in India official website



Source: http://www.rusembass...ctory=1&lang=en

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Citations for Chinese PL-12 missile's 70 to 100km range from highly respected and reputable sources

1. Most citations for the PL-12 are 70km+. (See four primary sources at Wikipedia article: PL-12 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

2. The highly respected Richard Fisher at International Assessment and Strategy Center claims the PL-12 has a range of 100km. This estimate is probably the most accurate. He has direct knowledge (see footnote 22 below).

Richard Fisher at International Assessment and Strategy Center (IASC) claims the PL-12 has a range of 100km.

In footnote 22, Richard Fisher at IASC explains the sources of his 100km range estimate for PL-12.

[vishwaprasad]

Thanks Martian for info. You are right we have only 3 awacs and detection advantages will be heavily in China favor. Hopefully we will induct indigenous awacs in number which will give us some breathing space against PLAAF. Personally I feel we should ask Russians for S-400 to counter J-20.

[Martian]

vishwaprasad, on 07 April 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

Thanks Martian for info. You are right we have only 3 awacs and detection advantages will be heavily in China favor. Hopefully we will induct indigenous awacs in number which will give us some breathing space against PLAAF. Personally I feel we should ask Russians for S-400 to counter J-20.

You are always welcome. Same for Tipu-786.

As India acquires more weapons, the scenarios become more interesting. Unfortunately for India, China seems to be developing high technology at a faster pace and building more of the advanced platforms (e.g. J-20, KJ-2000, KJ-200, advanced Soar Dragon UAV, etc.).


Chinese Soar Dragon UAV

[Note: Thank you to Marchpole for the picture.]

[Siddharth]

Martian, on 07 April 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

In footnote 22, Richard Fisher at IASC explains the sources of his 100km range estimate for PL-12.

Do you know for BVR engagements there is a term called NEZ or no-escape-zone.

100KM will be a head-on max range and will hit a fighter if they don't have MAWS or flying blindly. Also, missiles at such extreme ranges tends to loose their kinetic energy as they are not using sustained motor burn. Meaning not all of its flight path is powered.

PL-12 will have NEZ of max 50KM, if it is lucky.

[blueazure]

advertised numbers are always more ( with  assumptions like  target not moving , no ECM etc )  ,  operational envelopes are always less though and this applies to every misslile , not just the SD 10.

i just dont see the point here, china has made a breakthrough in a vital area and has joined the club of BVR producing nations. rest is just evolution and continued improvements .

[Dizasta]

Well if the PL-12's no-escape zone is 50km, from it's max range of 100km, then certainly Mica's range would probably be only 30km, as it's head-on, max range is 50km. Either way, PL-12 has an upper hand on the Mica and therefore Rafales as well.

[blueazure]

i've been watching indians on these chinese J 20 etc threads recently, they , deep down, cannot fathom the fact that china is now light years ahead in every major area and is simply in another league. the stark reality is that india has nothing to show of its own nor is anywhere near china

helpless to do anything, they resort to cheap mocking attacks like pointing out to J 20s engine nozzles or PL 12s range(!) , posting mere one liners that reek of sarcasms if anything else.