47 replies to this topic

[Oracle]

Guys !.......First draft of my latest research paper is out; topic is \"Pakistan Flood Control System\".
I have designed a flood control system for Pakistan, that can handle upto 50% bigger floods than 2010 floods.
all the flood water can be stored for futur use.
and...it doesn\'t need Kalabagh dam.

Latest public version:
Google Doc link PFCS 2.0.22

your suggestions/feedback is appreciated

[PakSniper]

access is broken bro :(

[visioninthedark]

Guys and gays!.......First draft of my latest research paper is out; topic is "Pakistan Flood Control System".
I have designed a flood control system for Pakistan, that can handle upto 50% bigger floods than 2010 floods.
all the flood water can be stored for futur use.
and...it doesn't need Kalabagh dam.

here is the draft
http://www.mediafire.com/?kh8tlqdf5rd7oxq

your suggestions/feedback is appreciated

Dude !!! What's with that man?

[Oracle]

I'v added two new download links.

[haroons222]

Guys and gays!.......First draft of my latest research paper is out; topic is "Pakistan Flood Control System".
I have designed a flood control system for Pakistan, that can handle upto 50% bigger floods than 2010 floods.
all the flood water can be stored for futur use.
and...it doesn't need Kalabagh dam.

here is the draft
http://www.mediafire.com/?kh8tlqdf5rd7oxq

your suggestions/feedback is appreciated

LOL gays!:P..

So i scanned the article, very well done.Im not aware of most technical stuff but it was in simple language, and i grasped most of it.
btw, if you dont mind telling me,do you have experience in civil engineering etc?or is this research purely out of interest...


ALSO,id like to see some ppl with the proper background to critique this paper.
Good job nontheless.
Kash kay our leaders were thinking as much as you are!

VTD, I THINK THATS JUST HIS LOVE FOR A COUPLE of members :P.

[Oracle]

I am an engineer but this project needed some extra skills of data mining, Computing, fluid mechanics and Geography.
I have kept this report simple for non technical readers.
Actual project report is too messy.

[haroons222]

I am an engineer but this project needed some extra skills of data mining, Computing, fluid mechanics and Geography.
I have kept this report simple for non technical readers.
Actual project report is too messy.

yes it is very easy to follow.
Nice to see my countrymen using their time well:).
btw,i was always under the impression that your a programmer from seattle(MS)

[Oracle]

yes it is very easy to follow.
Nice to see my countrymen using their time well:).
btw,i was always under the impression that your a programmer from seattle(MS)

there are lot of engineers at MS.

[haroons222]

there are lot of engineers at MS.

true...i know they hire ppl with different expertise.
Do you know a fahim ul haq...just a shot in the dark, i know that place is filled with desis:).

[Khalqat]

true...i know they hire ppl with different expertise.
Do you know a fahim ul haq...just a shot in the dark, i know that place is filled with desis:).

MS downsized big time about 1-1/2 years ago.

[M_ZEE32]

Guys and gays!.......First draft of my latest research paper is out; topic is "Pakistan Flood Control System".
I have designed a flood control system for Pakistan, that can handle upto 50% bigger floods than 2010 floods.
all the flood water can be stored for futur use.
and...it doesn't need Kalabagh dam.

here is the draft
Link 1: http://www.mediafire.com/?kh8tlqdf5rd7oxq
Link 2: http://www.filedropper.com/pfcs1116
Link 3: http://www.filefactory.com/file/b45a530/n/PFCS1.1.16.pdf

your suggestions/feedback is appreciated

To whom you would present this report ? Do you hope implement ?

[Alkhalid-19]

I like the courage of our members here in PDF for Pakistan !

[Simpleton]

I am an engineer but this project needed some extra skills of data mining, Computing, fluid mechanics and Geography.
I have kept this report simple for non technical readers.
Actual project report is too messy.

Care to share the actual report bro, or are you concerned about your work being plagiarized?  As M_ZEE32 said regarding to whom to present, and thoughts on implementation, any thoughts?

[rungroot]

bankay mian welcome back.

[Oracle]

Care to share the actual report bro, or are you concerned about your work being plagiarized?  As M_ZEE32 said regarding to whom to present, and thoughts on implementation, any thoughts?

  
numerical resullts and design details need some more clean-up, whille I switched to its CFD simulation
Any suggestions are welcome about implementation part.

[Oracle]

bankay mian welcome back.

I was allways here, but I had an excuse to spare u for some time :-P

[waz]

Excellent stuff bro, well done! It's high time we all do something practical like this.

[haroons222]

About implementation:

In my opinion.If some other fellow engineers get to critique the work then you can approach either political parties, or the media.If any alternative to this B.S. political stuff is presented, it just might get heard.
As far as the actual ministeries go...you will have to find someone honest, at the very top.We know how hard that is.

khalqat last i heard the guy is still there. I have alot of friends who got hired from U of Toronto, they are all there,HOWEVER there was a hiring freeze for a good two yrs, still might be in place.

[Oracle]

edited

[Simpleton]

I'm not an engineer, so personally I can't comment/critique your work, but may I present it to my father who is a civil engineer specializing in dams and groundwater hydrology, plus he's got a masters in environmental engineering, and some background in environmental law?

[Pak-Son]

MashAllah you have done a really good piece of work. I really appreciate that. It may sounds impossible but have a try and contact the National Disaster authority directly to present your research. I hope they will inshAllah give attention to your work.


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http://ndma.gov.pk/contact_us.html

[Simpleton]

Once you give the go-ahead, i'll present it to my father; if it has technical merit, then through his professional contacts he can present it at the highest level

[Oracle]

Once you give the go-ahead, i'll present it to my father; if it has technical merit, then through his professional contacts he can present it at the highest level

sure, u can
if you pm me an email address, I can send 3D georefrenced kmls, that contain everything about the reservoirs.

[HKK]

Great work!
I am not a civil engineer but would like to know if it is possible to have 4 big massive reserviours in each provience, which can provide water during drought but also hold up massive amount of water for flood protection. Is there any way of getting rid of this issue once and for all that "Panjab nay hamara pani rok liya" ?

[Oracle]

Great work!
I am not a civil engineer but would like to know if it is possible to have 4 big massive reserviours in each provience, which can provide water during drought but also hold up massive amount of water for flood protection. Is there any way of getting rid of this issue once and for all that "Panjab nay hamara pani rok liya" ?

there are many more possible dams, but it is engineer's job to design optimal system for minimum cost.
Soan Dam is smaller than mangla Dam in material and cost, but it can swallow the entire indus flood of 2010.

here is another interesting figure. A dam at skardu, which is as high as Diamer Basha dam, can store 95 MAF, equal to Indus river's 3 years flowrate at Skardu, but I want to focus on flood water thats why Soan Dam is natural choice.
Balochistan gets 50 MAF rain per year. There are many possible big reservoirs for Balochistan that can harvest more than half of the water which ultimately evaporates due to lack of planning.
Unfortunately, Sindh doesn't have many locations, but Soan is best solutions for Sind's reservations about Kalabagh dam.

Sindh has some valid points about water being stolen in Punjab.
Panjnad and Taunsa are last headworks in Punjab. Downstream Panjnad hardly sees any water flow except in case of a major flood.
Taunsa handles the water flow for Sindh which is 250 KM upstream from Sindh border.
govt needs to make sure that illegal tubewells in this lenght cannot steal from Sindh's water, and Sindh's quota reaches the Guddu upstream near Kashmore.
North Punjab cannot take Indus water unless Chashma jhelum link canal is opened, and happens only in extreme situations with public acknowledgement.
South Punjab (Siraeki belt) has documented right on Indus river, but there shouldn't be any stealing.

[safdar]

A well written analysis, well done, I've gathered you are suggesting two dams the size of terbela and some reservoirs to control this demonic floods second arrival.  

I think you should change from the imperial system to the metric system, most of the data from the Indus river basin from Pakistan since the 60s is done in billion cubic meters (BCM), million acre foot (MAF) will require them a calculator every time for accurate comparison of you're data to their's. 

[Saqib]

Schmuck,

You have done a good research but I have some observations on your proposed plan:

• The reservoir made in result of Soan Dam would submerge most part of the M2 Motorway between Chakwal and Rawalpindi and if the projection you made on the map is accurate then it might also endanger the city of Chakwal as well
• Soan Link Canal that you have proposed is almost 100 KM in length and has to pass through a mountainous terrain. I do not know if that is feasible from the engineering point of view or not.
• Rohtas lake is wonderful idea. I think it can store the excess water of Jhelum river but again it would submerge small portion of of GT Road and the Railway track near Mangla and Dina.

Apart from those points I would also like to add that if Soan dam can be materialized then Kalabagh Dam height can be lowered further 50 feet to ensure there is no upsurge of Indus or Kabul river towards Peshawar valley. I would prefer Kalabagh Dam over Khyber Dam as the later is not feasible in my opinion because the entire lake of this dam would be formed in Afghanistan. But a lowered Kalabagh and a massive Soan Dam could be best options in the given scenario.

[Oracle]

Schmuck,

You have done a good research but I have some observations on your proposed plan:

• The reservoir made in result of Soan Dam would submerge most part of the M2 Motorway between Chakwal and Rawalpindi and if the projection you made on the map is accurate then it might also endanger the city of Chakwal as well
• Soan Link Canal that you have proposed is almost 100 KM in length and has to pass through a mountainous terrain. I do not know if that is feasible from the engineering point of view or not.
• Rohtas lake is wonderful idea. I think it can store the excess water of Jhelum river but again it would submerge small portion of of GT Road and the Railway track near Mangla and Dina.

Apart from those points I would also like to add that if Soan dam can be materialized then Kalabagh Dam height can be lowered further 50 feet to ensure there is no upsurge of Indus or Kabul river towards Peshawar valley. I would prefer Kalabagh Dam over Khyber Dam as the later is not feasible in my opinion because the entire lake of this dam would be formed in Afghanistan. But a lowered Kalabagh and a massive Soan Dam could be best options in the given scenario

Chakwal is some 20 km away and 120 m higher than maximum extent of lake.
I have a 80 km long optimal path for canal. last hill needs a bend aroud it, it is a huge but doable thing.(edited typo its kms, not miles)
If this canal is to be built, govt should lease out  the last 10 km area of canal to stone crushers on 50% discount. they will flatten the stretch like any thing without a cost.
technically we have to build a motorway for water with 15-16 m high dykes on both side. such channels flow at abnormal speeds.

Rohtas lake will touch railway near tarakki hills. either a one mile long bridge, or a 5-7 mile re-rout will work. believe me, water resources are higher priority than railway roads.
remember Diamer Basha will submerge 100+ km of silk road just for 6 MAF.

who needs Kalabagh Dam after this system. it sounds like eating again after returning from a walima.
Khyber dam will be built inshallah for the people of KPK. let the "representatives" of Pakhtoons decide their stance on this. i feel they have no other choice once this idea becomes public.

[Saqib]

Chakwal is some 20 km away and 120 m higher than maximum extent of lake.
I have a 80 mile optimal path for canal. last hill needs a bend aroud it, it is a huge but doable thing. technically we have to build motorway for water with 15-16 m high dykes on both side. such channels flow at abnormal speeds.

But that is a huge stretch of motorway (almost 100KM) that would have to be rebuilt. In fact it would have to be re-routed from Kallar Kahar towards western side of the reservoir. Did you imagine the cost of doing that?

who needs Kalabagh Dam after this system. it sounds like eating again after returning from a walima.
Khyber dam will be built inshallah for the people of KPK. let the "representatives" of Pakhtoons decide their stance on this. i feel they have no other choice once this idea becomes public.

Yaar we cannot have an agreement within our country to build a dam and you are proposing a dam that would involve another country.

I think Khyber Dam is a non starter. Instead of wasting time, energy and resources on this dam why not build a lowered Kalabagh Dam that would not endanger any part of Pakistan.

[Oracle]

But that is a huge stretch of motorway (almost 100KM) that would have to be rebuilt. In fact it would have to be re-routed from Kallar Kahar towards western side of the reservoir. Did you imagine the cost of doing that?


Yaar we cannot have an agreement within our country to build a dam and you are proposing a dam that would involve another country.

I think Khyber Dam is a non starter. Instead of wasting time, energy and resources on this dam why not build a lowered Kalabagh Dam that would not endanger any part of Pakistan.

M2 to be rebuilt is less than 40 miles. I have it in detailed design doc.
another option is to rebuilt an elevated stretch in submerged area with a scenic "Chakri Causeway" in the middle. this will keep the original route and length of M2 unchanged.
for khyber dam, Afghanistan too doesn't have much choices.

actually mohmand darra was a flood region, before russians created this low quality poppy farming strip as a political tool. Pakistan can help building better alternatives, in the end, it is all for KPK people. rest of Pakistan hardly needs it.
Afghanistan should agree, or Pakistan can just build it like they did. btw, india is doing same on a tributary of brahmputra with china border. just google it.

[Saqib]

M2 to be rebuilt is less than 40 miles. I have it in detailed design doc.

for khyber dam, Afghanistan too doesn't have much choices.

actually mohmand darra was a flood region, before russians created this low quality poppy farming strip as a political tool. Pakistan can help building better alternatives, in the end, it is all for KPK people. rest of Pakistan hardly needs it.
Afghanistan should agree, or Pakistan can just build it like they did. btw, india is doing same on a tributary of brahmputra with china border. just google it.

Just a question:

Have you done any cost estimation on these projects or is it just only the technical study?

Have you also prepared any topographical simulation of the projects specially the Soan Dam?

If you are going to rebuild the 40 mile stretch of the motorway then add at least a US $ 500 million to the cost.

[HKK]

there are many more possible dams, but it is engineer's job to design optimal system for minimum cost.
Soan Dam is smaller than mangla Dam in material and cost, but it can swallow the entire indus flood of 2010.

here is another interesting figure. A dam at skardu, which is as high as Diamer Basha dam, can store 95 MAF, equal to Indus river's 3 years flowrate at Skardu, but I want to focus on flood water thats why Soan Dam is natural choice.
Balochistan gets 50 MAF rain per year. There are many possible big reservoirs for Balochistan that can harvest more than half of the water which ultimately evaporates due to lack of planning.
Unfortunately, Sindh doesn't have many locations, but Soan is best solutions for Sind's reservations about Kalabagh dam.

Sindh has some valid points about water being stolen in Punjab.
Panjnad and Taunsa are last headworks in Punjab. Downstream Panjnad hardly sees any water flow except in case of a major flood.
Taunsa handles the water flow for Sindh which is 250 KM upstream from Sindh border.
govt needs to make sure that illegal tubewells in this lenght cannot steal from Sindh's water, and Sindh's quota reaches the Guddu upstream near Kashmore.
North Punjab cannot take Indus water unless Chashma jhelum link canal is opened, and happens only in extreme situations with public acknowledgement.
South Punjab (Siraeki belt) has documented right on Indus river, but there shouldn't be any stealing.

What about making the Manchar lake a massive reservior and run the canals off it to server the agriculture in the rest of Sindh? With regards to Baluchistan, I dont beleive they got any major river system running through the the provience, have you got any location in mind which can be build as a reservior for rain water? I know your study is regarding the flood control, but in my opinion it will be best to kill two birds with one stone and get rid of this water allocation problem once and for all. Ideally, all proviences should be self sufficient in water management.

[haroons222]

I think the cost of M2 rebuilt seems alot in the short run, but we are going to have MASSIVE water reservoirs.
Schmuck, any idea how much of Balochistan can become productive with this size of a water source?

Also, will rohtas fort submerge?:(...its a beautiful area...but if its feasible i guess ppl would agree.

[Oracle]

Just a question:

Have you done any cost estimation on these projects or is it just only the technical study?

Have you also prepared any topographical simulation of the projects specially the Soan Dam?

If you are going to rebuild the 40 mile stretch of the motorway then add at least a US $ 500 million to the cost.

it is technical for now, but being economical is always a part of design.
very detailed topo design and simulations are ready.

[Oracle]

What about making the Manchar lake a massive reservior and run the canals off it to server the agriculture in the rest of Sindh? With regards to Baluchistan, I dont beleive they got any major river system running through the the provience, have you got any location in mind which can be build as a reservior for rain water? I know your study is regarding the flood control, but in my opinion it will be best to kill two birds with one stone and get rid of this water allocation problem once and for all. Ideally, all proviences should be self sufficient in water management.

Manchar's size and command area (area below its 112 feet elevation) is small compared to standard projects, but detail study can be done.
Sind receives its water at 258 feet level. thats why this is the theoretical max for any possible lake in the province.
with super TBMs in far far future, Sindh may get its water with higher head by direct tunnels originatin from further north, then Sindh can use its own dams.

I have few dozens of dams for Balochistan and many of them are much larger than Hub and Mirani dam.

[Oracle]

I think the cost of M2 rebuilt seems alot in the short run, but we are going to have MASSIVE water reservoirs.
Schmuck, any idea how much of Balochistan can become productive with this size of a water source?

Also, will rohtas fort submerge?:(...its a beautiful area...but if its feasible i guess ppl would agree.

Rohtas will not submerge. Its position saved it, and I didn't have to decide.
Balochistan has potential to export food, if a fraction of its rain water is stored. Mirani dam is a good example,  many more projects are possible.
I will share my list soon.

[Oracle]

HKK, I'v located a Mega dam site in Sindh, with a capacity to command Sindh (and possibly Balochistan) in carry over role. Capacity wise, there is "no limit" to its size, cuz it can carry up to 53.7 MAF water with a high dam, but 10-15 MAF will be really cheap and enough for several hundred years.

It is an "ambitious" design for a Grand Dam inside Sindh, which can play an important role of carry over dam for Sindh Province (and possibly Balochistan).I call it Bhit dam
Bhit Dam site is situated behind Manchar lake and it can make a grand lake up to 53.7 MAF.
a practical and economical choice  is 120 m deep lake, which can hold 10 MAF water.
This size needs 130m high and 6 km long dam wall @ lat 26.2590, long 67.5136
Construction volume will be half of Akhori dam, so it won't be a problem.
proposed lake is surrounded with multiple layers of hill ranges on both sides, which makes it safer and stable.
How to fill this lake is something that makes this project unique. reservoir is situated 67 to 187 m above Manchar lake. Under construction water pumping station in New Orleans, USA has capacity of 20000 cusecs. Bhit reservoir's optimal need will be much smaller if we spread the filling time by Co-ordinating with big reservoirs upstream and using manchar lake as intake reservoir. it will give Manchar a new life too. Electricity from national grid or Thar's coal or its byproduct disel can be used as energy source to make this happen. eventually, this used energy can be recovered downstream as hydroelectricity while using the stored water. more efficient pumps mean less running cost.
other option is high level canal and syphon tunnel from Soan reservoir to deliver Sindh's water effortlessly without river bed losses or illegal water theft. China has already constructed tunnels at this scale, and we can make use of their skill.
While our neighbour India is working on much larger and complex NRLP for efficient use of water. we need to evaluate our options.
Dam can hold some rain run-off to back-up the manchar lake.
It can command existing and new areas in Sindh to make best use of water share and flood water.

here is the location of dam for your "Ain ul Yaqeen".

[Oracle]

latest version of project is here
http://www.filefactory.com/file/b53e5h2/n/PFCS1.0.35.pdf
it doesn't contain the details of Bhit dam mentioned above due to its role about flood, but next version will have it in there.

here is the blue print of Pakistan flood control system, for those who don't have time to download the entire document.

[Munir]

As a civil engineer I read it with great intrest. To put it simple. The way they deal it now can't be worser.

[Oracle]

As a civil engineer I read it with great intrest. To put it simple. The way they deal it now can't be worser.

Thanks Munir, I have presented this paper at multiple concerned locations in Pakistan last month and feedback was very positive.
here is one link of my lecture.. at "One Day Colloquiam on Water Crises and Choices: A post-flood Scenario" at Agriculture University Faisalabad on 1/10/2011.
http://www.uaf.edu.pk/golden_jubilee/gld_events_archive.html
there is much more, but I would keep it confidential.