All 3 of the current fighters being inducted or upgraded by the Pakistan Air Force are fourth generation aircraft
While all major airforces are placing themselves in a position to transition to 5th generation aircraft
Pakistan's Primary A2A threat beyond 2020 seems to be the Pak-Fa in the IAF, just as the Su-30MKI is the dominant threat today (for which we are playing catch up only just now with the Block 52 F-16s)
we are in agreement the JF-17 will force them backbone of the PAF Fleet, and will therefore be upgraded as needed to hold at bay the bulk of the IAF's mid to low level forces
the F-16 and J-10 are planned to hold back the mid and high level enemy forces
---------------------------------------
the threat is that of a 675 fighter indian air force (39.5 fighter squadrans; approx. 17 aircraft per squadran)
a few squdrans will need to be held in reserve to counter the PLAAF and continencies in the south
if 30 or so squadrans (500-550 aircraft) are assumed to be arrayed against Pakistan in a time of hightened tensions (which could result in war), Pakistan needs to have forces adequate to not only counter them close to numberically but also qualitatively
i have noticed Pakistan is planning a 2:3 force structure (2 high end aircraft for every 3 low end aircraft)
1 f-16, 1 J-10, and 3 JF-17s (total is some where near 80 F-16, 80 J-10, and 250 JF-17 loosely; or 410 aircraft)
just as with the jf-17, if the requirements are outlined, as cost effective fighter can be planned, designed, flown, and made operational in short order
================================
this is why my first question is:
beyond transitioning to a stealthy JF-17; what should the follow on to the J-10/F-16 look like? should we have a single engine Fighter like the F-35 and J-10, or a twin engine scaled down version of the J-XX
the engines for the Jf-17 are planned to be 100 KN; therefore two engines woudl give at leat 200 KN
while the WS-15 engien is planned to be used on the J-XX and have 180 KN per engine
the WS-15 is the top chinese engine and therefore Top Secret, while the JF-17 engine will already be in the PAF on the JF-17 and Stealthy Jf-17
R&D would be much cheaper for a twin engien mini JXX as the JXX woudl just be scaled down, smaller AESA radar, smaller weapons bay
but all the R&D would just flow directly, and this twin engine aircraft would have great sales potential as first it would be ideal for the PLANAF (as their carrier based aircraft) as well as a direct sales competier to the PAK-Fa and F-35
upgrades to the J-XX could be directly applied to the mini JXX as china would want its carrier Mini JXX to be top notch
------------------------
on the other hand a single engine WS-15 poowered fighter could be ascaled up Stealthy JF-17
PAF has a almost doctrinal focus to stay with single engine fighters
they are easier to maintain and cheaper to operate
although if the Mini JXX uses the Jf-17's engine then engien maintainace will be a null point as the engines operated by all PAF aircraft will be the same, and Pakistan will invest to build a engine factory to at least make spare parts cheaply (if ToT is allowed from china)
=============================
So it all comes down to one engine or two?
Scale Down JXX or Scaled up JF-17?
0
Beyond The Jf-17, F-16 And J-10
Started by
ISI2003
, Jul 09 2010 10:12 AM
49 replies to this topic
#1
ISI2003
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Posted 09 July 2010 - 10:12 AM
"The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self." (Bukhari)
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#2
buckingham
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Posted 09 July 2010 - 11:08 AM
We dont know much about PLAAF's J-XX plans, we are sure there will be a twin-engine heavy design, but I am sure there will be another lighter design followed soon (single or twin engine). PAF may simply buy some. It may not feathure super cruise capability, which would increase enemy's missile range for about 10KM; but the maneuverability can be better, so it would be ok to neutralise Pak-Fa, considering any twin engine design may be too expensive for PAF.
However for now, Pakistan should focus on improving and especially selling JF-17s together with China; Pakistan will have access to more top Chinese projects should JF-17 be a success.
However for now, Pakistan should focus on improving and especially selling JF-17s together with China; Pakistan will have access to more top Chinese projects should JF-17 be a success.
#3
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Posted 09 July 2010 - 02:07 PM
China is working on it we will be fine
"The mosques are our barracks, the minarets our bayonets, the domes our helmets, and the believers our soldiers"
Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Davos Switzerland
Deeper than the oceans higher than the mountains
China-Pakistan Allied Forces brothers In Arms
'Shaheen teri parwaaz sey jalta hai zamana, Tu bazo-e-par sey issey aur hawa dey'-------JF17 Thunder
Know O Muslims, you have never seen a army of Rome as you see now, if Allah defeats them by your hand they shall never again stand against you
be steadfast in battle and defend your faith, beware of turning your backs on ur enemy for then your punishment will be the fire
be watchful and steady in ur ranks, and do not attack until i give the order
Battle of Ajnadayn-Khalid Bin Waleed
Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Davos Switzerland
Deeper than the oceans higher than the mountains
China-Pakistan Allied Forces brothers In Arms
'Shaheen teri parwaaz sey jalta hai zamana, Tu bazo-e-par sey issey aur hawa dey'-------JF17 Thunder
Know O Muslims, you have never seen a army of Rome as you see now, if Allah defeats them by your hand they shall never again stand against you
be steadfast in battle and defend your faith, beware of turning your backs on ur enemy for then your punishment will be the fire
be watchful and steady in ur ranks, and do not attack until i give the order
Battle of Ajnadayn-Khalid Bin Waleed
#4
buckingham
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Posted 09 July 2010 - 03:23 PM
QUOTE (aziqbal @ Jul 9 2010, 03:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
China is working on it we will be fine
It will be better if PAF can get some F-35s, though it seems to be highli unlikely
#5
aziqbal
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Posted 09 July 2010 - 04:19 PM
QUOTE (buckingham @ Jul 9 2010, 03:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It will be better if PAF can get some F-35s, though it seems to be highli unlikely
Doubt it mate Turks and Israelis are getting them and they are paying alot of money for them and even if we do rather go for Chinese
"The mosques are our barracks, the minarets our bayonets, the domes our helmets, and the believers our soldiers"
Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Davos Switzerland
Deeper than the oceans higher than the mountains
China-Pakistan Allied Forces brothers In Arms
'Shaheen teri parwaaz sey jalta hai zamana, Tu bazo-e-par sey issey aur hawa dey'-------JF17 Thunder
Know O Muslims, you have never seen a army of Rome as you see now, if Allah defeats them by your hand they shall never again stand against you
be steadfast in battle and defend your faith, beware of turning your backs on ur enemy for then your punishment will be the fire
be watchful and steady in ur ranks, and do not attack until i give the order
Battle of Ajnadayn-Khalid Bin Waleed
Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Davos Switzerland
Deeper than the oceans higher than the mountains
China-Pakistan Allied Forces brothers In Arms
'Shaheen teri parwaaz sey jalta hai zamana, Tu bazo-e-par sey issey aur hawa dey'-------JF17 Thunder
Know O Muslims, you have never seen a army of Rome as you see now, if Allah defeats them by your hand they shall never again stand against you
be steadfast in battle and defend your faith, beware of turning your backs on ur enemy for then your punishment will be the fire
be watchful and steady in ur ranks, and do not attack until i give the order
Battle of Ajnadayn-Khalid Bin Waleed
#6
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Posted 09 July 2010 - 05:22 PM
QUOTE (aziqbal @ Jul 9 2010, 04:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Doubt it mate Turks and Israelis are getting them and they are paying alot of money for them and even if we do rather go for Chinese
I would agree J-XX should be slightly better than F-35, espicially the export version, and cheaper; the main reason to get F35 may be to have a llok wha twe can learn.
Anyway, it seems IAF cant get F-35s either; and PakFa will be very expensive as they have to buy key parts (engine, radar) from Russia despite claiming to have the intellegent property.
#7
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Posted 09 July 2010 - 11:12 PM
It would seem that China is pursuing a medium-weight 5th generation fighter to supplement the J-XX.
By Richard Fisher:
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pub.../pub_detail.asp
It is possible that PAF will try joining the medium-weight 5th generation fighter should China pursue it...if anything, PAF should begin thinking or planning on acquiring a 5th generation design. The PAK-FA has flown and there is no doubt that IAF (as well as several other air forces) will acquire it when it is available for export. IMO the PAF's options include the potential Chinese program and by a long-shot F-35 (after 2025/2030).
By Richard Fisher:
QUOTE
Beyond this public data about the 5th generation programs at Shenyang and Chengdu is unsatisfactory. Both are thought to have been working on “heavy” twin-engine stealthy and highly maneuverable designs to compete with U.S. and Russian 5th generation fighters. However, Chinese internet sources, again unconfirmable, have suggested that in the PLA decided in favor of Chengdu’s 5th generation design, giving Shenyang a subcontractor role.[26] Both companies are thought to have at various times tended toward a “canard delta,” with Shenyang first thought to be favoring a “triplane” design and perhaps later a triplane-forward swept wing. Chengdu has usually been associated with a twin-engine canard-delta design. A Chengdu 611 Institute brochure obtained around the November 2002 Zhuhai Airshow included a computer simulation design for an apparent heavy twin-engine canard-delta design which bore some resemblance to the aborted Mikoyan MiG 1.44 5th generation fighter prototype. Reporting from the time of this aircraft’s unveiling in 1999 indicated some Russian interest in selling it to China,[27] but there has been no subsequent reporting to that effect. There have been more recent indicators that both Chengdu and Shenyang have worked with 5th generation concept that starts with a flat delta shaped airframe core, to which are attached canard controls, wings and stabilizers.
There is also a possibility that China could have a program for other 5th generation fighters, perhaps to include a medium-weight fighter to compliment its reported heavyweight fighter program. In early 2005 a Chinese industry source told the author that the Chengdu Aircraft Co. was considering a “F-35 like” fighter program. That would have been a period during which Chinese defense concerns were finalizing their programs for the next Five-Year Plan to begin in 2006, but it is not known whether such a medium-weight fighter program was approved. However, at the November 2006 Zhuhai Airshow the Shenyang Aircraft Co. revealed a radical canard-triplane forward swept wing fighter design. But its compelling feature was that it had one engine, an indication that there may be a medium-weight 5th generation fighter program as well. By mentioning the Lockheed-Martin F-35, there is at least the implication that a potential Chinese medium-weight fighter could be built in multiple versions, to include a short-take off and vertical landing model (STOVL), much like the F-35B.
There is also a possibility that China could have a program for other 5th generation fighters, perhaps to include a medium-weight fighter to compliment its reported heavyweight fighter program. In early 2005 a Chinese industry source told the author that the Chengdu Aircraft Co. was considering a “F-35 like” fighter program. That would have been a period during which Chinese defense concerns were finalizing their programs for the next Five-Year Plan to begin in 2006, but it is not known whether such a medium-weight fighter program was approved. However, at the November 2006 Zhuhai Airshow the Shenyang Aircraft Co. revealed a radical canard-triplane forward swept wing fighter design. But its compelling feature was that it had one engine, an indication that there may be a medium-weight 5th generation fighter program as well. By mentioning the Lockheed-Martin F-35, there is at least the implication that a potential Chinese medium-weight fighter could be built in multiple versions, to include a short-take off and vertical landing model (STOVL), much like the F-35B.
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pub.../pub_detail.asp
It is possible that PAF will try joining the medium-weight 5th generation fighter should China pursue it...if anything, PAF should begin thinking or planning on acquiring a 5th generation design. The PAK-FA has flown and there is no doubt that IAF (as well as several other air forces) will acquire it when it is available for export. IMO the PAF's options include the potential Chinese program and by a long-shot F-35 (after 2025/2030).
#8
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 01:27 AM
QUOTE (ISI2003 @ Jul 9 2010, 09:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
All 3 of the current fighters being inducted or upgraded by the Pakistan Air Force are fourth generation aircraft
While all major airforces are placing themselves in a position to transition to 5th generation aircraft
Pakistan's Primary A2A threat beyond 2020 seems to be the Pak-Fa in the IAF, just as the Su-30MKI is the dominant threat today (for which we are playing catch up only just now with the Block 52 F-16s)
we are in agreement the JF-17 will force them backbone of the PAF Fleet, and will therefore be upgraded as needed to hold at bay the bulk of the IAF's mid to low level forces
the F-16 and J-10 are planned to hold back the mid and high level enemy forces
---------------------------------------
the threat is that of a 675 fighter indian air force (39.5 fighter squadrans; approx. 17 aircraft per squadran)
a few squdrans will need to be held in reserve to counter the PLAAF and continencies in the south
if 30 or so squadrans (500-550 aircraft) are assumed to be arrayed against Pakistan in a time of hightened tensions (which could result in war), Pakistan needs to have forces adequate to not only counter them close to numberically but also qualitatively
i have noticed Pakistan is planning a 2:3 force structure (2 high end aircraft for every 3 low end aircraft)
1 f-16, 1 J-10, and 3 JF-17s (total is some where near 80 F-16, 80 J-10, and 250 JF-17 loosely; or 410 aircraft)
just as with the jf-17, if the requirements are outlined, as cost effective fighter can be planned, designed, flown, and made operational in short order
================================
this is why my first question is:
beyond transitioning to a stealthy JF-17; what should the follow on to the J-10/F-16 look like? should we have a single engine Fighter like the F-35 and J-10, or a twin engine scaled down version of the J-XX
the engines for the Jf-17 are planned to be 100 KN; therefore two engines woudl give at leat 200 KN
while the WS-15 engien is planned to be used on the J-XX and have 180 KN per engine
the WS-15 is the top chinese engine and therefore Top Secret, while the JF-17 engine will already be in the PAF on the JF-17 and Stealthy Jf-17
R&D would be much cheaper for a twin engien mini JXX as the JXX woudl just be scaled down, smaller AESA radar, smaller weapons bay
but all the R&D would just flow directly, and this twin engine aircraft would have great sales potential as first it would be ideal for the PLANAF (as their carrier based aircraft) as well as a direct sales competier to the PAK-Fa and F-35
upgrades to the J-XX could be directly applied to the mini JXX as china would want its carrier Mini JXX to be top notch
------------------------
on the other hand a single engine WS-15 poowered fighter could be ascaled up Stealthy JF-17
PAF has a almost doctrinal focus to stay with single engine fighters
they are easier to maintain and cheaper to operate
although if the Mini JXX uses the Jf-17's engine then engien maintainace will be a null point as the engines operated by all PAF aircraft will be the same, and Pakistan will invest to build a engine factory to at least make spare parts cheaply (if ToT is allowed from china)
=============================
So it all comes down to one engine or two?
Scale Down JXX or Scaled up JF-17?
While all major airforces are placing themselves in a position to transition to 5th generation aircraft
Pakistan's Primary A2A threat beyond 2020 seems to be the Pak-Fa in the IAF, just as the Su-30MKI is the dominant threat today (for which we are playing catch up only just now with the Block 52 F-16s)
we are in agreement the JF-17 will force them backbone of the PAF Fleet, and will therefore be upgraded as needed to hold at bay the bulk of the IAF's mid to low level forces
the F-16 and J-10 are planned to hold back the mid and high level enemy forces
---------------------------------------
the threat is that of a 675 fighter indian air force (39.5 fighter squadrans; approx. 17 aircraft per squadran)
a few squdrans will need to be held in reserve to counter the PLAAF and continencies in the south
if 30 or so squadrans (500-550 aircraft) are assumed to be arrayed against Pakistan in a time of hightened tensions (which could result in war), Pakistan needs to have forces adequate to not only counter them close to numberically but also qualitatively
i have noticed Pakistan is planning a 2:3 force structure (2 high end aircraft for every 3 low end aircraft)
1 f-16, 1 J-10, and 3 JF-17s (total is some where near 80 F-16, 80 J-10, and 250 JF-17 loosely; or 410 aircraft)
just as with the jf-17, if the requirements are outlined, as cost effective fighter can be planned, designed, flown, and made operational in short order
================================
this is why my first question is:
beyond transitioning to a stealthy JF-17; what should the follow on to the J-10/F-16 look like? should we have a single engine Fighter like the F-35 and J-10, or a twin engine scaled down version of the J-XX
the engines for the Jf-17 are planned to be 100 KN; therefore two engines woudl give at leat 200 KN
while the WS-15 engien is planned to be used on the J-XX and have 180 KN per engine
the WS-15 is the top chinese engine and therefore Top Secret, while the JF-17 engine will already be in the PAF on the JF-17 and Stealthy Jf-17
R&D would be much cheaper for a twin engien mini JXX as the JXX woudl just be scaled down, smaller AESA radar, smaller weapons bay
but all the R&D would just flow directly, and this twin engine aircraft would have great sales potential as first it would be ideal for the PLANAF (as their carrier based aircraft) as well as a direct sales competier to the PAK-Fa and F-35
upgrades to the J-XX could be directly applied to the mini JXX as china would want its carrier Mini JXX to be top notch
------------------------
on the other hand a single engine WS-15 poowered fighter could be ascaled up Stealthy JF-17
PAF has a almost doctrinal focus to stay with single engine fighters
they are easier to maintain and cheaper to operate
although if the Mini JXX uses the Jf-17's engine then engien maintainace will be a null point as the engines operated by all PAF aircraft will be the same, and Pakistan will invest to build a engine factory to at least make spare parts cheaply (if ToT is allowed from china)
=============================
So it all comes down to one engine or two?
Scale Down JXX or Scaled up JF-17?
But there are reports that PAF has scraped the idea of J-10b.
#9
AWA
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 04:35 AM
QUOTE (hala @ Jul 10 2010, 12:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But there are reports that PAF has scraped the idea of J-10b.
J-10B? u mean FC-20? Thats highly unlikely, nearly impossible. From where u got this news?
Apni Millat par qayaas aqwaam-e-maghrib say na kar
Khaas hai tarkeeb mein qaum-e-Rasool-e-Hashmi. (IQBAL)
Khaas hai tarkeeb mein qaum-e-Rasool-e-Hashmi. (IQBAL)
#10
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 05:48 AM
Pakistan Air Force did decline to opt for J-10A which is the first variant of the J-10 fighter. The J-10A is the one with the box, chin air-intake and Pakistan Air Force preferred to wait for the improved variant which incorporates the DSI 'Bump' air-intake. The latter variant is referred to by China, as J-10B and by Pakistan as FC-20. Pakistan Air Force is already committed to this fighter and had officially got the Parliment to ratify the procurement of the FC-20, about two sqaudrons worth or 40 aircrafts. With the enemy (india) increasing the strength of its Su-30 fleet to 280 aircrafts, it is not possible for Pakistan Air Force to ignore the FC-20s because it can ill-afford to concede technological gap with the enemy (india).
The 10 year procurement program allocated for Pakistan Air Force already earmarked fighters, surveillance aircrafts, tankers, surface-to-air missiles, radars and etc. This includes the procurement for (250) JF-17A/Bs, (40) FC-20C/Ds and (18) F-16C/Ds. Therefore, Pakistan Air Force would not be able to commit to any program as it already has its hands full with the production of JF-17s and other procurement programs such as Erieyes (AEWs), Midas (IFRs) and Chinese AEWs. Besides, any stealth procurement by the enemy (india), is ateast 10-15 years away and by the time (2015/16) when the bulk of the modernization program would be completed, Pakistan Air Force would have new funds available for the stealth fighter purchase.
The 10 year procurement program allocated for Pakistan Air Force already earmarked fighters, surveillance aircrafts, tankers, surface-to-air missiles, radars and etc. This includes the procurement for (250) JF-17A/Bs, (40) FC-20C/Ds and (18) F-16C/Ds. Therefore, Pakistan Air Force would not be able to commit to any program as it already has its hands full with the production of JF-17s and other procurement programs such as Erieyes (AEWs), Midas (IFRs) and Chinese AEWs. Besides, any stealth procurement by the enemy (india), is ateast 10-15 years away and by the time (2015/16) when the bulk of the modernization program would be completed, Pakistan Air Force would have new funds available for the stealth fighter purchase.
........ when the first drop of a Munafiq's blood drops in the Kaa'bah ........
........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........
........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........
........ it shall be done, as it is said "Kun Faya Koon
By, Mujahid Hosein (son of Imran Hosein)
........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........
........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........
........ it shall be done, as it is said "Kun Faya Koon
By, Mujahid Hosein (son of Imran Hosein)
#11
buckingham
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 08:03 AM
QUOTE (Saqr @ Jul 9 2010, 11:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It would seem that China is pursuing a medium-weight 5th generation fighter to supplement the J-XX.
By Richard Fisher:
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pub.../pub_detail.asp
It is possible that PAF will try joining the medium-weight 5th generation fighter should China pursue it...if anything, PAF should begin thinking or planning on acquiring a 5th generation design. The PAK-FA has flown and there is no doubt that IAF (as well as several other air forces) will acquire it when it is available for export. IMO the PAF's options include the potential Chinese program and by a long-shot F-35 (after 2025/2030).
By Richard Fisher:
http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pub.../pub_detail.asp
It is possible that PAF will try joining the medium-weight 5th generation fighter should China pursue it...if anything, PAF should begin thinking or planning on acquiring a 5th generation design. The PAK-FA has flown and there is no doubt that IAF (as well as several other air forces) will acquire it when it is available for export. IMO the PAF's options include the potential Chinese program and by a long-shot F-35 (after 2025/2030).
Agree!
1 the proposed WS-15 is 180KN class and should do well with a 5th gen fighter like F-35 and prusumebly much cheaper than it;
2 my question is, if China puts 2X WS15 (165KN now and 180KN goal) on J-XX, it must be slightly bigger than F22 (2X156KN) and Pak-Fa(157-175KN)
3 PAF must plan carefully for the next generation fighters, as they will be very very expensive, I would bet IAF may have to pay around $150M for each Pak-Fa in the end despite they are claiming PakFa is cheap @ $60-70M a piece
So, I think PAF should look at something from China, single engine, with scaled down J-XX radar (not downgarded though), priced @ $40M (the final bill will be around $50M), F-35 performance (probaly without super cruise, but much better maneuverability); and it should invest in the research just like what it did in the Jf-17 project should the latter be proven a success on the marcket in the future.
Speaking of all these, I think the most important project ever for PAF is the JF-17, it should concetrate on selling these babies now.
#12
buckingham
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 08:13 AM
QUOTE (Dizasta @ Jul 10 2010, 05:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Pakistan Air Force did decline to opt for J-10A which is the first variant of the J-10 fighter. The J-10A is the one with the box, chin air-intake and Pakistan Air Force preferred to wait for the improved variant which incorporates the DSI 'Bump' air-intake. The latter variant is referred to by China, as J-10B and by Pakistan as FC-20. Pakistan Air Force is already committed to this fighter and had officially got the Parliment to ratify the procurement of the FC-20, about two sqaudrons worth or 40 aircrafts. With the enemy (india) increasing the strength of its Su-30 fleet to 280 aircrafts, it is not possible for Pakistan Air Force to ignore the FC-20s because it can ill-afford to concede technological gap with the enemy (india).
The 10 year procurement program allocated for Pakistan Air Force already earmarked fighters, surveillance aircrafts, tankers, surface-to-air missiles, radars and etc. This includes the procurement for (250) JF-17A/Bs, (40) FC-20C/Ds and (18) F-16C/Ds. Therefore, Pakistan Air Force would not be able to commit to any program as it already has its hands full with the production of JF-17s and other procurement programs such as Erieyes (AEWs), Midas (IFRs) and Chinese AEWs. Besides, any stealth procurement by the enemy (india), is ateast 10-15 years away and by the time (2015/16) when the bulk of the modernization program would be completed, Pakistan Air Force would have new funds available for the stealth fighter purchase.
The 10 year procurement program allocated for Pakistan Air Force already earmarked fighters, surveillance aircrafts, tankers, surface-to-air missiles, radars and etc. This includes the procurement for (250) JF-17A/Bs, (40) FC-20C/Ds and (18) F-16C/Ds. Therefore, Pakistan Air Force would not be able to commit to any program as it already has its hands full with the production of JF-17s and other procurement programs such as Erieyes (AEWs), Midas (IFRs) and Chinese AEWs. Besides, any stealth procurement by the enemy (india), is ateast 10-15 years away and by the time (2015/16) when the bulk of the modernization program would be completed, Pakistan Air Force would have new funds available for the stealth fighter purchase.
1 I dont think PAF can have 40 J-10Bs for the original bugget, J-10Bs will have major upgrades in AESA,datalink etc.
2 For the time being, PAF should consider to fit datalink to all the Jf-17s, which is relatively cheaper than upgrading all the radars. especially PAF has a few KJ-200s
#13
ISI2003
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 08:34 AM
QUOTE (buckingham @ Jul 10 2010, 10:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Agree!
1 the proposed WS-15 is 180KN class and should do well with a 5th gen fighter like F-35 and prusumebly much cheaper than it;
2 my question is, if China puts 2X WS15 (165KN now and 180KN goal) on J-XX, it must be slightly bigger than F22 (2X156KN) and Pak-Fa(157-175KN)
3 PAF must plan carefully for the next generation fighters, as they will be very very expensive, I would bet IAF may have to pay around $150M for each Pak-Fa in the end despite they are claiming PakFa is cheap @ $60-70M a piece
So, I think PAF should look at something from China, single engine, with scaled down J-XX radar (not downgarded though), priced @ $40M (the final bill will be around $50M), F-35 performance (probaly without super cruise, but much better maneuverability); and it should invest in the research just like what it did in the Jf-17 project should the latter be proven a success on the marcket in the future.
Speaking of all these, I think the most important project ever for PAF is the JF-17, it should concetrate on selling these babies now.
1 the proposed WS-15 is 180KN class and should do well with a 5th gen fighter like F-35 and prusumebly much cheaper than it;
2 my question is, if China puts 2X WS15 (165KN now and 180KN goal) on J-XX, it must be slightly bigger than F22 (2X156KN) and Pak-Fa(157-175KN)
3 PAF must plan carefully for the next generation fighters, as they will be very very expensive, I would bet IAF may have to pay around $150M for each Pak-Fa in the end despite they are claiming PakFa is cheap @ $60-70M a piece
So, I think PAF should look at something from China, single engine, with scaled down J-XX radar (not downgarded though), priced @ $40M (the final bill will be around $50M), F-35 performance (probaly without super cruise, but much better maneuverability); and it should invest in the research just like what it did in the Jf-17 project should the latter be proven a success on the marcket in the future.
Speaking of all these, I think the most important project ever for PAF is the JF-17, it should concetrate on selling these babies now.
you have made many good points; what i was getting at was that Pakistan is committed to improving the design of the JF-17; making it eventually, ever more stealthier.
The JF-17 currently has a 86 kn engine and the J-10B has a 132 kn engine, the ws-10 will be replaced by an engine (for the JXX) that will generate 180 kn (allowing supercruise for the JXX design), and if the same technology is applied to the JF-17's engine (engine thrust upgraded to about 120kn) and the JF-17 is made lighter with composites and controlled by the lighter (no hydralyic fluids) quad fly by wire, it could probably supercuise (a 5th gen essential)
if Pakistan develops the JF-17 design into a stealthy design, and then just scales that up, it could allow PAF and Chendgu designers to kill two birds with one stone (or build two birds with one design)
secondly with the limited funds, if this program is started ASAP, then by the time 150 planes are rolled out the last 100 (from the total of 250) can be stealthy variants, so money can be spend on a stealth variant and spending money more efficently
by which time the JXX will be ready and the mid sized single engine 5th gen project can begin with alot of the R&D out of the way, so PAF can field 5th gen fighters at the same time IAF is fielding their PAk-Fa's
"The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self." (Bukhari)
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#14
buckingham
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 08:59 AM
QUOTE (ISI2003 @ Jul 10 2010, 09:34 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
you have made many good points; what i was getting at was that Pakistan is committed to improving the design of the JF-17; making it eventually, ever more stealthier.
The JF-17 currently has a 86 kn engine and the J-10B has a 132 kn engine, the ws-10 will be replaced by an engine (for the JXX) that will generate 180 kn (allowing supercruise for the JXX design), and if the same technology is applied to the JF-17's engine and the JF-17 is made lighter with composites and controlled by the lighter (no hydralyic fluids) quad fly by wire, it could probably supercuise
if Pakistan develops the JF-17 design into a stealthy design, and then just scales that up, it could allow PAF and Chendgu designers to kill two birds with one stone (or build two birds with one design)
secondly with the limited funds, if this program is started ASAP, then by the time 150 planes are rolled out the last 100 (from the total of 250) can be stealthy variants, by which time the JXX will be ready and the mid sized single engine 5th gen project can begin with alot of the R&D out of the way, so PAF can field 5th gen fighters at the same time IAF is fielding their PAk-Fa's
The JF-17 currently has a 86 kn engine and the J-10B has a 132 kn engine, the ws-10 will be replaced by an engine (for the JXX) that will generate 180 kn (allowing supercruise for the JXX design), and if the same technology is applied to the JF-17's engine and the JF-17 is made lighter with composites and controlled by the lighter (no hydralyic fluids) quad fly by wire, it could probably supercuise
if Pakistan develops the JF-17 design into a stealthy design, and then just scales that up, it could allow PAF and Chendgu designers to kill two birds with one stone (or build two birds with one design)
secondly with the limited funds, if this program is started ASAP, then by the time 150 planes are rolled out the last 100 (from the total of 250) can be stealthy variants, by which time the JXX will be ready and the mid sized single engine 5th gen project can begin with alot of the R&D out of the way, so PAF can field 5th gen fighters at the same time IAF is fielding their PAk-Fa's
not sure about JF-17's potential, I dont think it will be the base of any future design, JF-17 itself is an emergency solution based on 50 years old Mig-21 techs, it achieved its goal, and as PAF's first "own" fighter, it is a baby to be proud of, however, building any future fighter based on it will be proven wrong, PAF may look to improve J-10B for the next generation low cost fighter, though I would strongly go for complete new, true 5th gen design, even it is a scale down cheap copy of J-xx.
The only sensible upgrade for JF-17 to me is DATALINK! We all need to fresh our minds now, in future air battles, it is not about how good each fighter is, it is about how good the how system is. For example, I dont think 16 Mig-29s with the support of a Phalcon stand a good choice against 16 JF-17 with datalink and the support of a KJ-2000, though one Mig-29 may be better and more expensive than one JF-17.
please delete this
#16
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 09:18 AM
I think we need to take into consideration more than just getting a like for like fighter.
Stealth is going to be how fighters in the future are going, having a stealth fighter will help with offensive capability, but defensively your still in the same position. I think a multi pronged approach is required.
1. We do need to get in on something like the J-12 programme or the J-xx, or whatever the stealth concept of the J-10 was labelled as. Having that offensive stealth capability is essential.
2. Stealth isn't the only upgrade that a 5th generation fighter is going to have. They're going to be smarter, faster, more manouvreable, will be able to engage more targets etc. We need to be able to upggrade our current fleet to be able to go toe to toe with fighters of that capability. The platform itself as well as the radar, the ECM and the weapons it fires need to be worked on and developed so they can have the range and the speed to be effective.
3. To defend against stealth you need to be able to see stealthier fighters. We need to get hold of radars and work on development of radars and seekers for missiles that can detect 5th generation fighters so we can engage them.
Pakistan needs to take a leap in technology. JF-17 was great, we worked with someone, we got a basic item. We need to push those boundaries now. we need to work to try and be on the forefront of technology ourselves, to be able to add knowledge to a project rather than business requirements.
Stealth is going to be how fighters in the future are going, having a stealth fighter will help with offensive capability, but defensively your still in the same position. I think a multi pronged approach is required.
1. We do need to get in on something like the J-12 programme or the J-xx, or whatever the stealth concept of the J-10 was labelled as. Having that offensive stealth capability is essential.
2. Stealth isn't the only upgrade that a 5th generation fighter is going to have. They're going to be smarter, faster, more manouvreable, will be able to engage more targets etc. We need to be able to upggrade our current fleet to be able to go toe to toe with fighters of that capability. The platform itself as well as the radar, the ECM and the weapons it fires need to be worked on and developed so they can have the range and the speed to be effective.
3. To defend against stealth you need to be able to see stealthier fighters. We need to get hold of radars and work on development of radars and seekers for missiles that can detect 5th generation fighters so we can engage them.
Pakistan needs to take a leap in technology. JF-17 was great, we worked with someone, we got a basic item. We need to push those boundaries now. we need to work to try and be on the forefront of technology ourselves, to be able to add knowledge to a project rather than business requirements.
Follow PDF on twitter @Official_PDF
-=-=-=-=Faith, Unity, Discipline-=-=-=-=
Kashmir is the jugular Vein of Pakistan and no nation
or country would tolerate its jugular vein remains
under the sword of the enemy. -Muhammed Ali Jinnah
-=-=-=-=FREE KASHMIR-=-=-=-=
These eye's do not wander in lust, for my
queen of hearts has graced them with love.
"We gave our today for your tommorrow ".
-=-=-=-=Faith, Unity, Discipline-=-=-=-=
Kashmir is the jugular Vein of Pakistan and no nation
or country would tolerate its jugular vein remains
under the sword of the enemy. -Muhammed Ali Jinnah
-=-=-=-=FREE KASHMIR-=-=-=-=
These eye's do not wander in lust, for my
queen of hearts has graced them with love.
"We gave our today for your tommorrow ".
#17
ISI2003
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 09:34 AM
QUOTE (platinum786 @ Jul 10 2010, 11:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think we need to take into consideration more than just getting a like for like fighter.
Stealth is going to be how fighters in the future are going, having a stealth fighter will help with offensive capability, but defensively your still in the same position. I think a multi pronged approach is required.
1. We do need to get in on something like the J-12 programme or the J-xx, or whatever the stealth concept of the J-10 was labelled as. Having that offensive stealth capability is essential.
2. Stealth isn't the only upgrade that a 5th generation fighter is going to have. They're going to be smarter, faster, more manouvreable, will be able to engage more targets etc. We need to be able to upggrade our current fleet to be able to go toe to toe with fighters of that capability. The platform itself as well as the radar, the ECM and the weapons it fires need to be worked on and developed so they can have the range and the speed to be effective.
3. To defend against stealth you need to be able to see stealthier fighters. We need to get hold of radars and work on development of radars and seekers for missiles that can detect 5th generation fighters so we can engage them.
Pakistan needs to take a leap in technology. JF-17 was great, we worked with someone, we got a basic item. We need to push those boundaries now. we need to work to try and be on the forefront of technology ourselves, to be able to add knowledge to a project rather than business requirements.
Stealth is going to be how fighters in the future are going, having a stealth fighter will help with offensive capability, but defensively your still in the same position. I think a multi pronged approach is required.
1. We do need to get in on something like the J-12 programme or the J-xx, or whatever the stealth concept of the J-10 was labelled as. Having that offensive stealth capability is essential.
2. Stealth isn't the only upgrade that a 5th generation fighter is going to have. They're going to be smarter, faster, more manouvreable, will be able to engage more targets etc. We need to be able to upggrade our current fleet to be able to go toe to toe with fighters of that capability. The platform itself as well as the radar, the ECM and the weapons it fires need to be worked on and developed so they can have the range and the speed to be effective.
3. To defend against stealth you need to be able to see stealthier fighters. We need to get hold of radars and work on development of radars and seekers for missiles that can detect 5th generation fighters so we can engage them.
Pakistan needs to take a leap in technology. JF-17 was great, we worked with someone, we got a basic item. We need to push those boundaries now. we need to work to try and be on the forefront of technology ourselves, to be able to add knowledge to a project rather than business requirements.
yes we need to push the boundaries, and move towards a better design, the key is a single engine plane like the JF-17 is the right size to hold 2 BVR missiles and 2 WVR missiles (just enough to allow CAP missions over Pakistani air space)
if the design was revamped (not just upgraded) to be basically a scaled down f-35, the PAF would get the most for its money
once the design is solid, then it can be scaled up to the f-35's size and fielded (with enough space for 4 bvr missiles and 2 wvr missiles, or A2G weapons internally)
"The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self." (Bukhari)
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#18
platinum786
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 09:56 AM
QUOTE (ISI2003 @ Jul 10 2010, 04:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
yes we need to push the boundaries, and move towards a better design, the key is a single engine plane like the JF-17 is the right size to hold 2 BVR missiles and 2 WVR missiles (just enough to allow CAP missions over Pakistani air space)
if the design was revamped (not just upgraded) to be basically a scaled down f-35, the PAF would get the most for its money
once the design is solid, then it can be scaled up to the f-35's size and fielded (with enough space for 4 bvr missiles and 2 wvr missiles, or A2G weapons internally)
if the design was revamped (not just upgraded) to be basically a scaled down f-35, the PAF would get the most for its money
once the design is solid, then it can be scaled up to the f-35's size and fielded (with enough space for 4 bvr missiles and 2 wvr missiles, or A2G weapons internally)
Building a plane is a big step, one that our industry is not yet capable of taking i feel.
What we could do is work on things that make a plane what it is, such as;
- Radar - If the Chzech republic can build one, what is stopping us?
- Weapons used on the plane. Look at south Africa and their work on the Darter series of missiles
- Electronic counter measures, what work can be done to block seekers and prevent planes from being locked on to
I think we need more experience in aerospace before we can make our own plane. That will come from stuff like;
- working on designs to improve current planes (like china have done with J-10a and j-10b)
- working on easier planes such as helicopters or trainers or transport aircraft
Another project I had in mind was perhaps better understanding the structural limitations of the current JF-17 and seeing if we can improve the Fly by wire software to see if we can get it to be more manouverable.
Fighter jets are the cutting edge of technology, they aren't the easiest thing to build from scratch.
Edited by platinum786, 10 July 2010 - 09:57 AM.
Follow PDF on twitter @Official_PDF
-=-=-=-=Faith, Unity, Discipline-=-=-=-=
Kashmir is the jugular Vein of Pakistan and no nation
or country would tolerate its jugular vein remains
under the sword of the enemy. -Muhammed Ali Jinnah
-=-=-=-=FREE KASHMIR-=-=-=-=
These eye's do not wander in lust, for my
queen of hearts has graced them with love.
"We gave our today for your tommorrow ".
-=-=-=-=Faith, Unity, Discipline-=-=-=-=
Kashmir is the jugular Vein of Pakistan and no nation
or country would tolerate its jugular vein remains
under the sword of the enemy. -Muhammed Ali Jinnah
-=-=-=-=FREE KASHMIR-=-=-=-=
These eye's do not wander in lust, for my
queen of hearts has graced them with love.
"We gave our today for your tommorrow ".
#19
buckingham
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 10:27 AM
QUOTE (platinum786 @ Jul 10 2010, 09:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Building a plane is a big step, one that our industry is not yet capable of taking i feel.
What we could do is work on things that make a plane what it is, such as;
- Radar - If the Chzech republic can build one, what is stopping us?
- Weapons used on the plane. Look at south Africa and their work on the Darter series of missiles
- Electronic counter measures, what work can be done to block seekers and prevent planes from being locked on to
I think we need more experience in aerospace before we can make our own plane. That will come from stuff like;
- working on designs to improve current planes (like china have done with J-10a and j-10b)
- working on easier planes such as helicopters or trainers or transport aircraft
Another project I had in mind was perhaps better understanding the structural limitations of the current JF-17 and seeing if we can improve the Fly by wire software to see if we can get it to be more manouverable.
Fighter jets are the cutting edge of technology, they aren't the easiest thing to build from scratch.
What we could do is work on things that make a plane what it is, such as;
- Radar - If the Chzech republic can build one, what is stopping us?
- Weapons used on the plane. Look at south Africa and their work on the Darter series of missiles
- Electronic counter measures, what work can be done to block seekers and prevent planes from being locked on to
I think we need more experience in aerospace before we can make our own plane. That will come from stuff like;
- working on designs to improve current planes (like china have done with J-10a and j-10b)
- working on easier planes such as helicopters or trainers or transport aircraft
Another project I had in mind was perhaps better understanding the structural limitations of the current JF-17 and seeing if we can improve the Fly by wire software to see if we can get it to be more manouverable.
Fighter jets are the cutting edge of technology, they aren't the easiest thing to build from scratch.
you are too ambitious, brother, sure Chzech is building a radar so why cant Pakistan, SA is building Darter, and why cant Pakistan, but to be realistic, the only country apart from US/RussiaChina (probaly Japan and India) that designs and builds morden fighters is Sweden, and it has to use US engines and weapons. I would put business very important in PAF's projects, Pakistan is not China or India and does not have $200-500B in the pocket, selling JF-17s and everything it makes is the only way to build and maintain an aero industry for Pakistan.
#20
Dizasta
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 11:44 AM
QUOTE (buckingham @ Jul 10 2010, 03:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
1 I dont think PAF can have 40 J-10Bs for the original bugget, J-10Bs will have major upgrades in AESA,datalink etc.
When the initial interest was taken in the Chinese J-10As, it was at the time of General Musharraf's reign and due consideration was given to the argument of having new build (55) F-16 Blk-52s or more JF-17s and possibly an option of a true BVR/Multi-role fighter, J-10As. However, back in 2005/6, when Pakistan Air Force evaluated the fighter, it was deemed that there needed to be certain key modifications needed considering that Pakistan Air Force doesn't have the luxury that China does of having large fleet of J-10As. Which is why the decision was made to reduce the number of Block-52s from (55) to just (18). This allowed a significant amount of funds freed up for JF-17s and FC-20s. Also, since Pakistan Air Force would have its hands full with JF-17's production, induction, tests and evaluations, and since the FC-20 would take time development. It was decided that they would wait for the FC-20s when they're ready for procurement.
QUOTE
2 For the time being, PAF should consider to fit datalink to all the Jf-17s, which is relatively cheaper than upgrading all the radars. especially PAF has a few KJ-200s
According to reports (Pakistan Air Force, A New Dawn - Alan Warnes), JF-17 Thunder's Test & Evaluation Flight did point out that they were evaluating a Chinese Data-Link for the Thunders. This was in late 2008 and was for the purposes of incorporating it in the first (58) production Thunders. There are other major upgrades which will be incorporated as the Thunder Program rolls alonng. These include, IFR (In-Flight Refueling) Probes, IRST (Infra-Red Search & Track) and Data-Link. As of January 2009, KARF (Kamra Avionics and Radar Factory) is license building KLJ-7 radars for the Thunders and would also be building RWRs, ECMs, IRSTs & IFFs. By the time Pakistan Air Force is ready to finalize its western avionics package for the next batch of Thunders, the first batch of Thunders would be able to Data-Link with ZDK-03s with its Chinese radars and avionics. There is alot more to this aircraft than you can imagine and although you talk about upgrades, the current program running, is very much on task and current.
........ when the first drop of a Munafiq's blood drops in the Kaa'bah ........
........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........
........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........
........ it shall be done, as it is said "Kun Faya Koon
By, Mujahid Hosein (son of Imran Hosein)
........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........
........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........
........ it shall be done, as it is said "Kun Faya Koon
By, Mujahid Hosein (son of Imran Hosein)
#21
ISI2003
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 11:44 AM
QUOTE (platinum786 @ Jul 10 2010, 11:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Building a plane is a big step, one that our industry is not yet capable of taking i feel.
What we could do is work on things that make a plane what it is, such as;
- Radar - If the Chzech republic can build one, what is stopping us?
- Weapons used on the plane. Look at south Africa and their work on the Darter series of missiles
- Electronic counter measures, what work can be done to block seekers and prevent planes from being locked on to
I think we need more experience in aerospace before we can make our own plane. That will come from stuff like;
- working on designs to improve current planes (like china have done with J-10a and j-10b)
- working on easier planes such as helicopters or trainers or transport aircraft
Another project I had in mind was perhaps better understanding the structural limitations of the current JF-17 and seeing if we can improve the Fly by wire software to see if we can get it to be more manouverable.
Fighter jets are the cutting edge of technology, they aren't the easiest thing to build from scratch.
What we could do is work on things that make a plane what it is, such as;
- Radar - If the Chzech republic can build one, what is stopping us?
- Weapons used on the plane. Look at south Africa and their work on the Darter series of missiles
- Electronic counter measures, what work can be done to block seekers and prevent planes from being locked on to
I think we need more experience in aerospace before we can make our own plane. That will come from stuff like;
- working on designs to improve current planes (like china have done with J-10a and j-10b)
- working on easier planes such as helicopters or trainers or transport aircraft
Another project I had in mind was perhaps better understanding the structural limitations of the current JF-17 and seeing if we can improve the Fly by wire software to see if we can get it to be more manouverable.
Fighter jets are the cutting edge of technology, they aren't the easiest thing to build from scratch.
QUOTE (buckingham @ Jul 10 2010, 12:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
you are too ambitious, brother, sure Chzech is building a radar so why cant Pakistan, SA is building Darter, and why cant Pakistan, but to be realistic, the only country apart from US/RussiaChina (probaly Japan and India) that designs and builds morden fighters is Sweden, and it has to use US engines and weapons. I would put business very important in PAF's projects, Pakistan is not China or India and does not have $200-500B in the pocket, selling JF-17s and everything it makes is the only way to build and maintain an aero industry for Pakistan.
I stress the word Design, not build
we have many young engineers, who would easily (if given start up funds) start a design bureau; cars, planes, etc.
look at Saab (they build cars and planes)
it doesn't have to be many, it could even be fanboys like us, around the world (those who have the skills) and these minds through CGI, AutoCad, etc. work on designing the Stealthy JF-17
this could then be presented as fan art (look at how much response the stealth JF-17 design got, it was published in chinese defense journals, and got the indians thinking about Pakistan's future air force; giving them pause at the least)
what i'm stressing is the design work should start now; PAk-Fa is up, the JXX is on its way and will probably achieve IOC within the decade
just as Pakistan outlined its requirement for the JF-17, a similar requirement can be outlined for the steathly JF-17 and Single Engine 5th gen fighter
if the requirements are laid out then it can be slowly applied to the JF-17 in the form of a technology demonstator (more composites, better shaping, better avionics, data fusion and high sortie rates like the Gripen, etc.)
it will give our engineers some real input, at minimal cost
the factory is there to crank out the planes
-------------------------------------------------------------
with the new block 52s and PAF participation in Red Flag this summer, the PAF will learn what modern combat as of 2010 is expected to be; from this knowledge the JF-17 design can be improved; such as cockpit layout, need for an IRST, need for a built in targetting pod, quick take off requirements that the american engines can do but not russian engines (see comments about the su-30mki at red flag and the time it took to launch)
all this will incrementally make the JF-17 a true fourth gen aircraft, and when a design is outlined based on real world experience along with stealth shaping data from the chinese and a high input of composites and a true quad fly by wire, the JF-17 can be evolved into a stealth fighter
all this may seem like ramblings, but if the requirements are not outlined not before pak-fa is fielded, then the threat once fielded will leave us behind trying to catch up, and in danger of a war, as well as wasting millions on an old JF-17 design that could have been improved for not much more money
"The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self." (Bukhari)
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#22
Dizasta
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 11:51 AM
QUOTE (platinum786 @ Jul 10 2010, 04:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Building a plane is a big step, one that our industry is not yet capable of taking i feel.
What we could do is work on things that make a plane what it is, such as;
- Radar - If the Chzech republic can build one, what is stopping us?
- Electronic counter measures, what work can be done to block seekers and prevent planes from being locked on to
What we could do is work on things that make a plane what it is, such as;
- Radar - If the Chzech republic can build one, what is stopping us?
- Electronic counter measures, what work can be done to block seekers and prevent planes from being locked on to
KARF (Kamra Avionics and Radar Factory) currently produces under a joint-program, radars (western and Chinese), ECMs, IFFs and RWRs. It would also be doing the same for JF-17 Thunders.
........ when the first drop of a Munafiq's blood drops in the Kaa'bah ........
........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........
........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........
........ it shall be done, as it is said "Kun Faya Koon
By, Mujahid Hosein (son of Imran Hosein)
........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........
........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........
........ it shall be done, as it is said "Kun Faya Koon
By, Mujahid Hosein (son of Imran Hosein)
#23
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 01:01 PM
the gripen is considered by many to be the gold standard for light weight fighters
it weighs about 2000 lb (~1 ton) less than the JF-17 and with a 98kn Engien (F414) it can supercruise
if more composites were used and the hydralic replaced with a complete quad fly by wire, and the body slightly redesigned to accomidate it, the JF-17 could probably also supercruise (because the Ws-13 is being upgraded to 100kn range)
it weighs about 2000 lb (~1 ton) less than the JF-17 and with a 98kn Engien (F414) it can supercruise
if more composites were used and the hydralic replaced with a complete quad fly by wire, and the body slightly redesigned to accomidate it, the JF-17 could probably also supercruise (because the Ws-13 is being upgraded to 100kn range)
"The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self." (Bukhari)
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#24
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 01:51 PM
the JF-17 should also have its targetting pod built into the nose, similar to the F-35's EOTS and the PAF Rose Mirages style (i know this is a FLIR in the mirage, but you get the point)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm..._foreground.jpg
http://files.blogter.hu/user_files/132039/F-35_EOTS.jpeg
http://www.afwing.com/intro/f35/eots.jpg
as well as a lower RCS nose
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7853/815841183773401kp5.jpg
and a IRST on top of the Nose for A2A engagement
http://www.ausairpower.net/J-10B-Prototype-10S.jpg
http://www.ausairpower.net/J-10B-Prototype-1S.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm..._foreground.jpg
http://files.blogter.hu/user_files/132039/F-35_EOTS.jpeg
http://www.afwing.com/intro/f35/eots.jpg
as well as a lower RCS nose
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7853/815841183773401kp5.jpg
and a IRST on top of the Nose for A2A engagement
http://www.ausairpower.net/J-10B-Prototype-10S.jpg
http://www.ausairpower.net/J-10B-Prototype-1S.jpg
"The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self." (Bukhari)
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#25
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 02:02 PM
we all know the IFR probe needs to be placed behind and one side of the cockpit
at the same time the gatling gun should be remove from the bottom of the plane to the other side of behind the cockpit
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8113/st...ngunplaceme.png
-------------------
this is being worked on by the chinese but Pakistan should take into account this placement when/if it decides to design an upgrade to the JF-17
at the same time the gatling gun should be remove from the bottom of the plane to the other side of behind the cockpit
http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8113/st...ngunplaceme.png
-------------------
this is being worked on by the chinese but Pakistan should take into account this placement when/if it decides to design an upgrade to the JF-17
"The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self." (Bukhari)
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#26
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 02:17 PM
VERY IMPORTANT UPGRADE
another technology can be applied to this plane (at modest increase in price)
it is simila rtro the current MAWS on the JF-17, but allows more
the F-35's Distributed Aperture System (EO DAS)
Electro-Optical (visual) distributed aperture system
http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/f35targeting/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1NrFZddihQ...player_embedded
Features
Northrop Grumman has developed the only 360 degree, spherical situational awareness system in the electro-optical distributed aperture system (DAS). The DAS surrounds the aircraft with a protective sphere of situational awareness. It warns the pilot of incoming aircraft and missile threats as well as providing day/night vision, fire control capability and precision tracking of wingmen/friendly aircraft for tactical maneuvering.
Designated the AN/AAQ-37, and comprising six electro-optical sensors, the full EO DAS will enhance the F-35's survivability and operational effectiveness by warning the pilot of incoming aircraft and missile threats, providing day/night vision and supporting the navigation function of the F-35's forward-looking infrared sensor.
The DAS provides:
•Missile detection and tracking
•Launch point detection
•Situational awareness IRST & cueing
•Weapons support
•Day/night navigation
In addition to developing the EO DAS, Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems is supplying the F-35's AN/APG-81 advanced electronically scanned array (AESA) fire-control radar. The AESA radar is designed to enable the pilot to effectively engage air and ground targets at long range, while also providing outstanding situational awareness.
another technology can be applied to this plane (at modest increase in price)
it is simila rtro the current MAWS on the JF-17, but allows more
the F-35's Distributed Aperture System (EO DAS)
Electro-Optical (visual) distributed aperture system
http://www.es.northropgrumman.com/solutions/f35targeting/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1NrFZddihQ...player_embedded
Features
Northrop Grumman has developed the only 360 degree, spherical situational awareness system in the electro-optical distributed aperture system (DAS). The DAS surrounds the aircraft with a protective sphere of situational awareness. It warns the pilot of incoming aircraft and missile threats as well as providing day/night vision, fire control capability and precision tracking of wingmen/friendly aircraft for tactical maneuvering.
Designated the AN/AAQ-37, and comprising six electro-optical sensors, the full EO DAS will enhance the F-35's survivability and operational effectiveness by warning the pilot of incoming aircraft and missile threats, providing day/night vision and supporting the navigation function of the F-35's forward-looking infrared sensor.
The DAS provides:
•Missile detection and tracking
•Launch point detection
•Situational awareness IRST & cueing
•Weapons support
•Day/night navigation
In addition to developing the EO DAS, Northrop Grumman Electronic Systems is supplying the F-35's AN/APG-81 advanced electronically scanned array (AESA) fire-control radar. The AESA radar is designed to enable the pilot to effectively engage air and ground targets at long range, while also providing outstanding situational awareness.
"The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self." (Bukhari)
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#27
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 02:24 PM
the chinese will develop a AESA radar and EW suites
but we should still try to get the vixen 750 and advanced european EW equipement if possible, as we continue to seek advanced avionics (which will improve sensor/data fusion)
--------------------
access to european and american tech will allow PAF to also keep up with the latest way to maintain (resist from jamming of) Communication, Navagation, and Identification
--------------------
as well as the primary radar in the nose operating at one band, the stealthy JF-17 should follow the lead of the F-22, F-35 and Pak-Fa with radars in the lead edges of the wings, and four tail surfaces
operating at three different bands (L, S, X) they can detect planes that may be easier to detect at one of the bands and not the others
but we should still try to get the vixen 750 and advanced european EW equipement if possible, as we continue to seek advanced avionics (which will improve sensor/data fusion)
--------------------
access to european and american tech will allow PAF to also keep up with the latest way to maintain (resist from jamming of) Communication, Navagation, and Identification
--------------------
as well as the primary radar in the nose operating at one band, the stealthy JF-17 should follow the lead of the F-22, F-35 and Pak-Fa with radars in the lead edges of the wings, and four tail surfaces
operating at three different bands (L, S, X) they can detect planes that may be easier to detect at one of the bands and not the others
"The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self." (Bukhari)
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#28
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 02:34 PM
These are the upgrades already outlined in the JF-17 article on Wikipedia
Retractable in-flight refueling probes
Greater use of composite materials in the airframe to decrease weight and increase thrust-to-weight ratio
Internal Infra-Red Search and Track (IRST) system, possibly the Type Hongguang-I Electro-optical Radar (虹光-Ⅰ型光电雷达) developed by Sichuan Changhong
Electric Appliance Corporation (currently the IRST must be carried externally)
More powerful engine, potential options include the Chinese WS-13 Taishan and Russian Klimov RD-93B turbofans, giving 10% greater thrust than the current RD-93
Minor airframe modifications to reduce the aircraft's radar cross-section by adding stealthy features
--------------------
Possibly:
European avionics, radars and weaponry
Pakistan had begun negotiations with British and Italian defence firms over potential avionics and radars for JF-17 during initial development. Some of the radar options for JF-17 are the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7 [74] and the French Thomson-CSF RC400 (a variant of the RDY-2), along with the MBDA MICA IR/RF short/medium range air-to-air missiles
The Vixen 500E AESA radar has also been offered to the PAF for installation on the JF-17 by the British company SELEX, but the PAF may be looking for a more advanced AESA radar
Retractable in-flight refueling probes
Greater use of composite materials in the airframe to decrease weight and increase thrust-to-weight ratio
Internal Infra-Red Search and Track (IRST) system, possibly the Type Hongguang-I Electro-optical Radar (虹光-Ⅰ型光电雷达) developed by Sichuan Changhong
Electric Appliance Corporation (currently the IRST must be carried externally)
More powerful engine, potential options include the Chinese WS-13 Taishan and Russian Klimov RD-93B turbofans, giving 10% greater thrust than the current RD-93
Minor airframe modifications to reduce the aircraft's radar cross-section by adding stealthy features
--------------------
Possibly:
European avionics, radars and weaponry
Pakistan had begun negotiations with British and Italian defence firms over potential avionics and radars for JF-17 during initial development. Some of the radar options for JF-17 are the Italian Galileo Avionica Grifo S7 [74] and the French Thomson-CSF RC400 (a variant of the RDY-2), along with the MBDA MICA IR/RF short/medium range air-to-air missiles
The Vixen 500E AESA radar has also been offered to the PAF for installation on the JF-17 by the British company SELEX, but the PAF may be looking for a more advanced AESA radar
"The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self." (Bukhari)
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#29
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 02:56 PM
The Main two points of this topic; an improved stealthy design
1. The Jf-17 Should get an internal weapons bay
2. placement of the wheels outside the central body and in bays on the wing like the x-32
http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/drea...brazky/X-32.jpg
wheels away from the body, allow the weapons bay to be longer, and allow the JF-17 to carry 2 SD-10 or Ramjet BVr missiles, and 2 WVR Missiles
allow the plane to operate as a stealthy aircraft
PAF Design team should work on these two elements, IMHO, the rest will come from the JXX
1. The Jf-17 Should get an internal weapons bay
2. placement of the wheels outside the central body and in bays on the wing like the x-32
http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/drea...brazky/X-32.jpg
wheels away from the body, allow the weapons bay to be longer, and allow the JF-17 to carry 2 SD-10 or Ramjet BVr missiles, and 2 WVR Missiles
allow the plane to operate as a stealthy aircraft
PAF Design team should work on these two elements, IMHO, the rest will come from the JXX
"The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self." (Bukhari)
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#30
warhead
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 03:54 PM
In addition to the mentioned elements like stealth improvements electronic warfare options also need to be developed like improved direction finding rwrs when enemy aesa radars lock onto the planes and also towed decoys to tackle down the amraams with monopulse seekers at their terminal active guiding phase. If we have good frontal stealth and better rwr the aircraft can break the lock at midcourse phase by turning towards the tracking enemy radar as well.
Another thing that comes to my mind is not only towed decoys to confuse missile seekers but self propelled decoys to confuse the radars of opposing airplanes. We know that opposing planes stealthy or not will fly high to escape low altitude defenses like manpads and to avoid optical,ir detection, our non stealth planes will probably fly low to use the advantage of ground clutter. What about self propelled drones carried and launched by the planes or larger drones flying above our aircraft continiously generating chaff clouds above our low flying aircraft when incoming missiles are detected. Planes looking from above will need to see under the chaff clouds to track our planes and if they can't midcourse guidance of a2a missiles will also not work well, if missile seekers activate towed decoys will handle the rest.
Another thing that comes to my mind is not only towed decoys to confuse missile seekers but self propelled decoys to confuse the radars of opposing airplanes. We know that opposing planes stealthy or not will fly high to escape low altitude defenses like manpads and to avoid optical,ir detection, our non stealth planes will probably fly low to use the advantage of ground clutter. What about self propelled drones carried and launched by the planes or larger drones flying above our aircraft continiously generating chaff clouds above our low flying aircraft when incoming missiles are detected. Planes looking from above will need to see under the chaff clouds to track our planes and if they can't midcourse guidance of a2a missiles will also not work well, if missile seekers activate towed decoys will handle the rest.
- Everything is from Allah. There is no other source of power and all causes are from Allah. This way you don't fall into theist fatalism waiting for things to happen themselves without pushing yourself harder to get better and without taking any risk and effort leading to inaction. On the other side pantheist views also lead to fatalism and inaction since it leads to easy passive conclusions like everything is perfect as it is and there is no meaning to excersize your will to make these as well as yourself better and denying your existance and will immobilizes you under difficulties.
- Submission, acceptance, let go of the roadblocks that we are sticking to the ego,fears,doubts etc.
We are in a constant war with our nefsh and eventualy we will experience death, the ego what we attach to will inevitably be gone whether we want it or not so do not stick to any result within this process.
- In this process desire everything but dependent on nothing without attaching to any cause but Allah. Everything becomes a tool a window for you.
You can then think and understand more and more forever without sticking to some cause. Giving up desire even at the mental level is harmful
Even if you physically don't escape away from life into a desert leaving injustice behind you will mentally be in the desert without seeing any direction for growth and sharing. Less will,less action,less sharing, more poverty. Blame game or running away from life as if it is some separate force does not answer the age old question of why many believers suffer while egoist pharaohs appear wealthy in their well decorated prisons. Giving up will results in giving up action then poverty. One who loves Allah loves everything from Allah. One who desires Allah desires everything from Allah.
- Take action, resist and be a wider channel for the 99 Forces of Allah. Ibadah is all your life process not snapshots of when you do Salat or dzikhr.
Gradually the false consciousness,the lies will melt away and Truth remains. You will experience what you do is from Allah. Then InshAllah you won't feel alone and disconnected.
If you can be selfless there can be wholeness in your conscioussness. If you can handle the internal battle which is the most important then you remove the blocks within the mind and your mind becomes like a channel. You can crush egos, smash idols, reveal the Truth, always transform and improve. Everything becomes possible. Most importantly it is the ego and lies that we are up against and at the essence the aim is to understand and live fully with the conscioussness of there are no many powers, sources of power like ego or images, only Allah. This fact in turn leads us to the point that it is those lies that makes us and the opponent seperate and prior aim should be on changing the opponent without using violence unless it is inevitable.
SubhanAllahi vel Hamdullillahi ve la ilahe illallahu vAllahu Ekber; vela havle vela kuvvete illa Billahil Aliyyil Azıym
- Submission, acceptance, let go of the roadblocks that we are sticking to the ego,fears,doubts etc.
We are in a constant war with our nefsh and eventualy we will experience death, the ego what we attach to will inevitably be gone whether we want it or not so do not stick to any result within this process.
- In this process desire everything but dependent on nothing without attaching to any cause but Allah. Everything becomes a tool a window for you.
You can then think and understand more and more forever without sticking to some cause. Giving up desire even at the mental level is harmful
Even if you physically don't escape away from life into a desert leaving injustice behind you will mentally be in the desert without seeing any direction for growth and sharing. Less will,less action,less sharing, more poverty. Blame game or running away from life as if it is some separate force does not answer the age old question of why many believers suffer while egoist pharaohs appear wealthy in their well decorated prisons. Giving up will results in giving up action then poverty. One who loves Allah loves everything from Allah. One who desires Allah desires everything from Allah.
- Take action, resist and be a wider channel for the 99 Forces of Allah. Ibadah is all your life process not snapshots of when you do Salat or dzikhr.
Gradually the false consciousness,the lies will melt away and Truth remains. You will experience what you do is from Allah. Then InshAllah you won't feel alone and disconnected.
If you can be selfless there can be wholeness in your conscioussness. If you can handle the internal battle which is the most important then you remove the blocks within the mind and your mind becomes like a channel. You can crush egos, smash idols, reveal the Truth, always transform and improve. Everything becomes possible. Most importantly it is the ego and lies that we are up against and at the essence the aim is to understand and live fully with the conscioussness of there are no many powers, sources of power like ego or images, only Allah. This fact in turn leads us to the point that it is those lies that makes us and the opponent seperate and prior aim should be on changing the opponent without using violence unless it is inevitable.
SubhanAllahi vel Hamdullillahi ve la ilahe illallahu vAllahu Ekber; vela havle vela kuvvete illa Billahil Aliyyil Azıym
#31
buckingham
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 04:42 PM
QUOTE (ISI2003 @ Jul 10 2010, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The Main two points of this topic; an improved stealthy design
1. The Jf-17 Should get an internal weapons bay
2. placement of the wheels outside the central body and in bays on the wing like the x-32
http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/drea...brazky/X-32.jpg
wheels away from the body, allow the weapons bay to be longer, and allow the JF-17 to carry 2 SD-10 or Ramjet BVr missiles, and 2 WVR Missiles
allow the plane to operate as a stealthy aircraft
PAF Design team should work on these two elements, IMHO, the rest will come from the JXX
1. The Jf-17 Should get an internal weapons bay
2. placement of the wheels outside the central body and in bays on the wing like the x-32
http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/drea...brazky/X-32.jpg
wheels away from the body, allow the weapons bay to be longer, and allow the JF-17 to carry 2 SD-10 or Ramjet BVr missiles, and 2 WVR Missiles
allow the plane to operate as a stealthy aircraft
PAF Design team should work on these two elements, IMHO, the rest will come from the JXX
1 JF-17 may be too small to have internal weapon bays;
2 PAF will not need F-16s or even J-10Bs if it can mange to get these upgrades down in 5 years
#32
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Posted 10 July 2010 - 05:59 PM
QUOTE (buckingham @ Jul 10 2010, 06:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
1 JF-17 may be too small to have internal weapon bays;
2 PAF will not need F-16s or even J-10Bs if it can mange to get these upgrades down in 5 years
2 PAF will not need F-16s or even J-10Bs if it can mange to get these upgrades down in 5 years
1. Space for Internal Weapons Bay
[urlhttp://img413.imageshack.us/img413/1149/jf171190.jpg"]http://img413.images...49/jf171190.jpg[/url]
http://www.xairforces.com/images/country/p...f_scheme_01.jpg
the JF-17 is 14 meters (~46 feet) long, while the SD-10 is 12.89 ft (3.93 m) long
If the gatling gun is removed from the bottom and moved to the top, and the central pylong is removed, that clears the underside except for the wheels
if the wheels are shifted furth out to the wings like in the x-32 and f-35
http://aerofiles.com/boe-x32a.jpg
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/4175/f35wheelsbay.jpg
now while the f-35 has plently of room to spare considering the aim-120 is nearly the same length
http://shop.righthere.nu/images/uploads/-%...s%20bombbay.jpg
the length from the front of the nose to behind the intakes (where the f-35's weapons bay starts) is ~ 6 meters
the length from the engine of the fuselage to the back of the wings is ~ 3 meters
this leaves 5 meters, the weapons bay of the f-35 in the following image shows how the sd-10 can be put against the bottom door
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fP7ZHF3g3yg/SwLf...riormissile.jpg
if the extra meter is left for the some "wiggle room" so structures can be adjusted so as to acomidate the weapons bay;
IMHO the JF-17 can accomidate a weapons bay large enough for SD-10 sized weapons and smaller (PL-9C, 500 lb bombs, etc.)
2. Need for the F-16 and J-10 not needed if stealthy JF-17 can be fielded?
I doubt this as these two planes are larger, and can house more electronics (radar, ECM, etc.) and allow greater range
the F-16 has cutting edge tech and the J-10 can carry more while having advanced manuerability
the stealthy JF-17 is still just a 8.5 G design
if totally revamped and made into a truely stealthy JF-17 then yes, these two planes are obsolete, but PAF does yet have access to electronics and an advanced engine to allow for this planes to materialize
besides this plane will need to get JXX stealth shaping tech, similar to how the Pak-Fa and F-22 is shaped by advanced computers (china has some of the best supercomputers, so shaping tech and lowest RCS possible will be applied when the chinese master that tech)
http://www.ahrtp.com/RSS-JSfeeds/Sukhoi_T-...x990_ttvnol.jpg
http://www.ahrtp.com/RSS-JSfeeds/Sukhoi_T-...x990_ttvnol.jpg
"The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self." (Bukhari)
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#33
warhead
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Posted 13 July 2010 - 04:41 AM
There was a stealthy variant project of yak 141 was it Yak 43, that could be of some use since it is also vtol. For older planes we need to use the advantage of flying low in our own ground. For midcourse guidance communication jamming by towed decoys or aesa radar is an option or we need to think of other measures like effective rwr alerting our sams close to enemy engaging them to make them break lock etc. Amraam or similar monopulse seeker: towed decoys as mentioned, one under each wing. imaging infrared seekers: What would be the effect of hot phosphorus smoke screen. Pyrophoric material rp or wp can be injected by the aircraft to towed decoys behind ejecting the hot cloud trail masking another plane behind underneath, just like roman legions shielding their comrades next to. Only the plane at the forward needs a self propelled uav to generate the hot smoke
- Everything is from Allah. There is no other source of power and all causes are from Allah. This way you don't fall into theist fatalism waiting for things to happen themselves without pushing yourself harder to get better and without taking any risk and effort leading to inaction. On the other side pantheist views also lead to fatalism and inaction since it leads to easy passive conclusions like everything is perfect as it is and there is no meaning to excersize your will to make these as well as yourself better and denying your existance and will immobilizes you under difficulties.
- Submission, acceptance, let go of the roadblocks that we are sticking to the ego,fears,doubts etc.
We are in a constant war with our nefsh and eventualy we will experience death, the ego what we attach to will inevitably be gone whether we want it or not so do not stick to any result within this process.
- In this process desire everything but dependent on nothing without attaching to any cause but Allah. Everything becomes a tool a window for you.
You can then think and understand more and more forever without sticking to some cause. Giving up desire even at the mental level is harmful
Even if you physically don't escape away from life into a desert leaving injustice behind you will mentally be in the desert without seeing any direction for growth and sharing. Less will,less action,less sharing, more poverty. Blame game or running away from life as if it is some separate force does not answer the age old question of why many believers suffer while egoist pharaohs appear wealthy in their well decorated prisons. Giving up will results in giving up action then poverty. One who loves Allah loves everything from Allah. One who desires Allah desires everything from Allah.
- Take action, resist and be a wider channel for the 99 Forces of Allah. Ibadah is all your life process not snapshots of when you do Salat or dzikhr.
Gradually the false consciousness,the lies will melt away and Truth remains. You will experience what you do is from Allah. Then InshAllah you won't feel alone and disconnected.
If you can be selfless there can be wholeness in your conscioussness. If you can handle the internal battle which is the most important then you remove the blocks within the mind and your mind becomes like a channel. You can crush egos, smash idols, reveal the Truth, always transform and improve. Everything becomes possible. Most importantly it is the ego and lies that we are up against and at the essence the aim is to understand and live fully with the conscioussness of there are no many powers, sources of power like ego or images, only Allah. This fact in turn leads us to the point that it is those lies that makes us and the opponent seperate and prior aim should be on changing the opponent without using violence unless it is inevitable.
SubhanAllahi vel Hamdullillahi ve la ilahe illallahu vAllahu Ekber; vela havle vela kuvvete illa Billahil Aliyyil Azıym
- Submission, acceptance, let go of the roadblocks that we are sticking to the ego,fears,doubts etc.
We are in a constant war with our nefsh and eventualy we will experience death, the ego what we attach to will inevitably be gone whether we want it or not so do not stick to any result within this process.
- In this process desire everything but dependent on nothing without attaching to any cause but Allah. Everything becomes a tool a window for you.
You can then think and understand more and more forever without sticking to some cause. Giving up desire even at the mental level is harmful
Even if you physically don't escape away from life into a desert leaving injustice behind you will mentally be in the desert without seeing any direction for growth and sharing. Less will,less action,less sharing, more poverty. Blame game or running away from life as if it is some separate force does not answer the age old question of why many believers suffer while egoist pharaohs appear wealthy in their well decorated prisons. Giving up will results in giving up action then poverty. One who loves Allah loves everything from Allah. One who desires Allah desires everything from Allah.
- Take action, resist and be a wider channel for the 99 Forces of Allah. Ibadah is all your life process not snapshots of when you do Salat or dzikhr.
Gradually the false consciousness,the lies will melt away and Truth remains. You will experience what you do is from Allah. Then InshAllah you won't feel alone and disconnected.
If you can be selfless there can be wholeness in your conscioussness. If you can handle the internal battle which is the most important then you remove the blocks within the mind and your mind becomes like a channel. You can crush egos, smash idols, reveal the Truth, always transform and improve. Everything becomes possible. Most importantly it is the ego and lies that we are up against and at the essence the aim is to understand and live fully with the conscioussness of there are no many powers, sources of power like ego or images, only Allah. This fact in turn leads us to the point that it is those lies that makes us and the opponent seperate and prior aim should be on changing the opponent without using violence unless it is inevitable.
SubhanAllahi vel Hamdullillahi ve la ilahe illallahu vAllahu Ekber; vela havle vela kuvvete illa Billahil Aliyyil Azıym
#34
Simpleton
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Posted 27 July 2010 - 10:19 PM
Link
The above link is a compilation of various sources, including from those of this forum and Pakdef, among other on the subject at hand. There are lots of interesting facets discussed, as well as some improbable things as well (at least from today's worldview), all in all it's a worthy read.
Interesting things included PAFs policy on procurement:
Pakistani input on J-10, and J-11
joint work on the engines and the pros and cons of those engines
Pak-Turk cooperation in the BVR arena
and many more such things are interesting
But credibility comes into doubt as somethings such as the numbers of JF-17s to be inducted seem wildly inflated as to what the general consensus is, among other things, but all in all a good compilation if not for accuracy, at least to generate further thoughts on the matter.
The above link is a compilation of various sources, including from those of this forum and Pakdef, among other on the subject at hand. There are lots of interesting facets discussed, as well as some improbable things as well (at least from today's worldview), all in all it's a worthy read.
Interesting things included PAFs policy on procurement:
QUOTE
…procurement is critical for PAF as it needs a quality high end to counter the larger IAF with her MKIs, Mirage-2000s and MRCA. With a new sensor rich environment dominated by AWACS on both sides and a large number of BVR platforms, higher altitude BVR engagements would become vital. J-10s are ideally suited for such combat given their aerodynamics including low wing loading in an A2A configuration. The instantaneous turn rates achievable on the J-10 (or the Euro canards) are likely to give an advantage in such engagements, as opposed to the high wing loadings on the over-evolved F-16s which were essentially designed for turning dog fights rather than high altitude BVR slash and dash maneuvers.
With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India. Even then, with the 5 present contenders left in the MRCA, only the Eurofighter (assuming AESA radars) would be able to match the J-10 in air-to-air combat.
The PAF is looking for a total of 150 high end aircraft like the F-16 Block 52s and the FC-20 (J-10Bs or J-10Ps). The FC-20s could be procured in greater numbers, depending on relations with the U.S. and the operability of the F-16s. The J-10Ps and the JF-17s make a perfect pair – one ideal for high altitude air superiority and deep strike missions while the other ideal as a true multirole fighter. Where the J-10 lacks in deep strike, the F-16s make up for it. Where the J-10s lack in CAS, the JF-17s make up for it. Where the JF-17 lacks in high altitude BVR engagements, the J-10s make up for it.
The J-10s, F-16s and JF-17s also fit into the AFFDP-2019 requirements. The AFFDP-2019 is the core document on the strategic planning of Pakistan’s armed forces over 15 years. While this document is not available in the public domain, informed sources note that the PAF has been assigned procurement of only single engine combat aircraft. The J-10Ps/FC-20s coupled with the JF-17s and F-16s thus ideally meet these requirements.
In the event that the Indian Air Force decides to procure massive numbers of Western 4.5 generation fighters, beyond the 126 MRCA, while increasing the Su-30MKI numbers and upgrades their MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s, the PAF has a clear charted path in increasing JF-17s and FC-20s, having by then set up the infrastructure and training for these planes. Further, the JF-17s would not only allow PAF to counter numbers, but also allow her to maintain larger numbers of FC-20s and F-16s for war-time and lower their depreciation – providing a low cost training aircraft to fly liberally during peacetime. This would be a similar arrangement to how the Israeli Air Force uses F-16s to keep meet the flight time allocations of its F-15 pilots. Grande Strategy
With the AESA equipped new J-10Bs, higher thrust engines and better EW/Avionics, PAF would reclaim the qualitative edge over the IAF. These J-10s would be superior in air combat than anything that the IAF fields today and would only be matched by a possible MRCA acquisition by India. Even then, with the 5 present contenders left in the MRCA, only the Eurofighter (assuming AESA radars) would be able to match the J-10 in air-to-air combat.
The PAF is looking for a total of 150 high end aircraft like the F-16 Block 52s and the FC-20 (J-10Bs or J-10Ps). The FC-20s could be procured in greater numbers, depending on relations with the U.S. and the operability of the F-16s. The J-10Ps and the JF-17s make a perfect pair – one ideal for high altitude air superiority and deep strike missions while the other ideal as a true multirole fighter. Where the J-10 lacks in deep strike, the F-16s make up for it. Where the J-10s lack in CAS, the JF-17s make up for it. Where the JF-17 lacks in high altitude BVR engagements, the J-10s make up for it.
The J-10s, F-16s and JF-17s also fit into the AFFDP-2019 requirements. The AFFDP-2019 is the core document on the strategic planning of Pakistan’s armed forces over 15 years. While this document is not available in the public domain, informed sources note that the PAF has been assigned procurement of only single engine combat aircraft. The J-10Ps/FC-20s coupled with the JF-17s and F-16s thus ideally meet these requirements.
In the event that the Indian Air Force decides to procure massive numbers of Western 4.5 generation fighters, beyond the 126 MRCA, while increasing the Su-30MKI numbers and upgrades their MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s, the PAF has a clear charted path in increasing JF-17s and FC-20s, having by then set up the infrastructure and training for these planes. Further, the JF-17s would not only allow PAF to counter numbers, but also allow her to maintain larger numbers of FC-20s and F-16s for war-time and lower their depreciation – providing a low cost training aircraft to fly liberally during peacetime. This would be a similar arrangement to how the Israeli Air Force uses F-16s to keep meet the flight time allocations of its F-15 pilots. Grande Strategy
Pakistani input on J-10, and J-11
joint work on the engines and the pros and cons of those engines
Pak-Turk cooperation in the BVR arena
and many more such things are interesting
But credibility comes into doubt as somethings such as the numbers of JF-17s to be inducted seem wildly inflated as to what the general consensus is, among other things, but all in all a good compilation if not for accuracy, at least to generate further thoughts on the matter.
SWEET IS SLEEP TO ME AND EVEN MORE TO BE OF STONE,
WHILE THE WRONG AND SHAME ENDURE.
TO BE WITHOUT SIGHT OR SENSE IS A MOST HAPPY CHANGE FOR ME,
THEREFORE DO NOT ROUSE ME. HUSH! SPEAK LOW.
I said to God "I hate Life" God replied "Who asked you to love life? Just Love me & life will be beautiful"
Living in favorable and unfavorable conditions is PART of living. Smiling in all those conditions is ART of living.
"Anytime you think you need to protect God, you can be sure you're worshiping an idol"
WHILE THE WRONG AND SHAME ENDURE.
TO BE WITHOUT SIGHT OR SENSE IS A MOST HAPPY CHANGE FOR ME,
THEREFORE DO NOT ROUSE ME. HUSH! SPEAK LOW.
I said to God "I hate Life" God replied "Who asked you to love life? Just Love me & life will be beautiful"
Living in favorable and unfavorable conditions is PART of living. Smiling in all those conditions is ART of living.
"Anytime you think you need to protect God, you can be sure you're worshiping an idol"
I've stopped fighting my inner demons. We're on the same side now.
#35
Saqr
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Posted 27 July 2010 - 10:48 PM
Its a fair analysis, shouldn't be taken as news or reporting...but something to discuss to back and forth.
I am a strong supporter of Pakistan manufacturing turbofan engines (as well as other propulsion systems for ships, armored vehicles, etc)...others do not think that is the route that Pakistan is going, which I'd think as shortsighted. So the bits about Pakistan producing WS-13 indigenously would be good news for me, but we can't take it as something that will happen...but it may be on the cards and be brought up in defence circles eventually.
In the celebration of JF-17, know that Pakistan wanted to manufacture jet-fighters in 1947 too...Mir Laiq Ali even negotiated an agreement with U.S. & Lockheed Company in 1949-1950...but the plans were squashed by the British, who at the time had command of our military. And subsequent attempts, such as the Saab Viggen and Mirage F-1, were also thwarted for various reasons.
I am a strong supporter of Pakistan manufacturing turbofan engines (as well as other propulsion systems for ships, armored vehicles, etc)...others do not think that is the route that Pakistan is going, which I'd think as shortsighted. So the bits about Pakistan producing WS-13 indigenously would be good news for me, but we can't take it as something that will happen...but it may be on the cards and be brought up in defence circles eventually.
In the celebration of JF-17, know that Pakistan wanted to manufacture jet-fighters in 1947 too...Mir Laiq Ali even negotiated an agreement with U.S. & Lockheed Company in 1949-1950...but the plans were squashed by the British, who at the time had command of our military. And subsequent attempts, such as the Saab Viggen and Mirage F-1, were also thwarted for various reasons.
#36
sobank
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Posted 28 July 2010 - 07:21 AM
dont go overboard.
first of all jf has datalink we just need to synch it with our other stuff.
And most importantly remember that it is the donkey of PAF and not stallion.
So some of the upgrades that I you guys are imagining, are never gonna happen. not because we dont want them to but because we dont need them.
so is the body going to be composite......... yes.
body will be more angled............ yes.
are weapons going inside the body........... probably not.
what you guys are not realizing that after all these proposed upgrades, you are essentially making a new plane. I mean tell me what of jf is going to left :)
we need a cheaper plane to counter migs. and thats what paf will make sure jf to remain. a cheaper solution. for everything else, get a new plane.
first of all jf has datalink we just need to synch it with our other stuff.
And most importantly remember that it is the donkey of PAF and not stallion.
So some of the upgrades that I you guys are imagining, are never gonna happen. not because we dont want them to but because we dont need them.
so is the body going to be composite......... yes.
body will be more angled............ yes.
are weapons going inside the body........... probably not.
what you guys are not realizing that after all these proposed upgrades, you are essentially making a new plane. I mean tell me what of jf is going to left :)
we need a cheaper plane to counter migs. and thats what paf will make sure jf to remain. a cheaper solution. for everything else, get a new plane.
#37
bojangles
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Posted 29 July 2010 - 12:30 PM
I agree with Sobank. Realistically, a lot of these upgrades mentioned are not going to happen. The most likely upgrades are a better engine, slight redesign for lower RCS, increased use of composites and avionic/radar/electronic upgrades. I doubt the airforce will go for major structural changes. The goal of JF17 should be to eventually be in the same league as the Gripen NG, but with a lower cost.
#38
ISI2003
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Posted 29 July 2010 - 09:51 PM
QUOTE (bojangles @ Jul 29 2010, 02:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I agree with Sobank. Realistically, a lot of these upgrades mentioned are not going to happen. The most likely upgrades are a better engine, slight redesign for lower RCS, increased use of composites and avionic/radar/electronic upgrades. I doubt the airforce will go for major structural changes. The goal of JF17 should be to eventually be in the same league as the Gripen NG, but with a lower cost.
realistically upgrading the JF-17 in to more than a 4th gen fighter can only be done with chinese help, and they wont have the tech ready for 10 years (flown and the bugs worked out)
therefore i agree, in the mean time, the JF-17 should be made as close to the gripen NG 's capabilities as possible at low cost
but as we try to get to the gripen's level of tech in all aspects (better manufacturing, better materials, better support training, better turn around time, etc.)
we shoudl also try to incorpate F-35 like features, including IMHO a small internal bay (to hold at least 2 BVR and 2 WVR missiles)
this will allow this plane to have a true marketing angle, especially when compared on a price versus capbilities basis
look at how hard the jf-17 is having trying to get sales when there are many second hand american and european and russian fourth gen fighters up for sale along with extensive upgrades aviable
"The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self." (Bukhari)
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#39
Saqr
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Posted 29 July 2010 - 11:06 PM
PAF isn't going to push for a near-stealthy JF-17, it is beyond the feasibility scope of the project of a lightweight multi-role 4+/4.5 generation fighter. Yes what can and will likely happen is upgrades to the level of Gripen NG. In many ways, a lot NG's capabilities will be seen in the 2nd and 3rd block of JF-17s through the induction of AESA radar, HMD/S, 5th-gen WVR and next-gen BVRAAM (possibly A & T-Darter), new set of avionics, ECM/EW, etc. The airframe might see the use of more composites to help reduce weight and lower RCS, some minor changes to the nose (but not to the point of being a JSF look alike), and of course higher-thrust engine. In fact, we may even see a technology demonstrator JF-17 that will test out systems for PAF's next big project, which will most likely be a 5th generation fighter in the league of F-35 Lightening II. Again, the point here is that capabilities towards stealth and internal weapon-bays will essentially be seen in a completely new fighter program, not within the current JF-17.
#40
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Posted 31 July 2010 - 08:57 AM
QUOTE (Saqr @ Jul 30 2010, 01:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
PAF isn't going to push for a near-stealthy JF-17, it is beyond the feasibility scope of the project of a lightweight multi-role 4+/4.5 generation fighter. Yes what can and will likely happen is upgrades to the level of Gripen NG. In many ways, a lot NG's capabilities will be seen in the 2nd and 3rd block of JF-17s through the induction of AESA radar, HMD/S, 5th-gen WVR and next-gen BVRAAM (possibly A & T-Darter), new set of avionics, ECM/EW, etc. The airframe might see the use of more composites to help reduce weight and lower RCS, some minor changes to the nose (but not to the point of being a JSF look alike), and of course higher-thrust engine. In fact, we may even see a technology demonstrator JF-17 that will test out systems for PAF's next big project, which will most likely be a 5th generation fighter in the league of F-35 Lightening II. Again, the point here is that capabilities towards stealth and internal weapon-bays will essentially be seen in a completely new fighter program, not within the current JF-17.
AESA radar, HMD/S, Missiles, Avionics, and ECM/EW are all electronics based and Pakistan does not truely have a basis (with the exception of some avioncs and some missile tech) in these technologies
the airframe can be developed by PAF's Kamra and CAC, while the main chinese 5th gen program will trickle down tech to this planes future upgrades
china is getting better and better composite material tech; this is an area to apply on the jf-17 year after year to oower the weight, while the WS-13 engine is developed into a fully operational form
and keeping in mind an internal weapons bay (even if not fully stealthy) could allow the internal bay to carry not only missiles, but sensors, or decoys; their are many possibilities
"The most excellent Jihad is that for the conquest of self." (Bukhari)
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
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