470 replies to this topic

[lanc]

I provided a link directly from ADA. I am also claiming that things have not improved.

You on the other hand are disputing and saying things have improved but are not providing any link.  So the onus to prove is on you.

Your link referred to trials held by the prototype while I'm asking you to prove the production aircraft is limited to 6Gs and 20 AoA. And since it has a new engine, its pretty obvious the performance isn't the same.

[Aliph Ahmed]

Your link referred to trials held by the prototype while I'm asking you to prove the production aircraft is limited to 6Gs and 20 AoA. And since it has a new engine, its pretty obvious the performance isn't the same.

If performance isnt the same and has improved then provide a link from ADA mentionaing some source by name.

Tomorrow you will say that LCA when attached to Lunar rockets will fly to the moon and provide no links.

So far you have made the following claims but provided no links:

1. LCA has more range than a K8 trainer.
2. LCA has achieved IOC in November of 2009.
3. LCA's Elbit DASH doesnt need a radar.
4. LCA is flying with full fuel tanks.

[lanc]

LCA must be the only plane on earth that doesnt require a radar to provide inputs to the Elbit DASH. because as per the following link and common knowledge, Elbit Dash or any other DASH require inputs from the radar that LCA currently dont have.  

Link

Read your link again. The whole idea behind the helmet cueing system is that radar is ineffective at large off-boresight angles.

[lanc]

If performance isnt the same and has improved then provide a link from ADA mentionaing some source by name.

Same airframe, newer engine with higher thrust. I believe the onus is on you to prove the performance at its flight limits is 6Gs and critical AoA 20 degrees.

So far you have made the following claims but provided no links:

1. LCA has more range than a K8 trainer.
2. LCA has achieved IOC in November of 2009.
3. LCA's Elbit DASH doesnt need a radar.
4. LCA is flying with full fuel tanks.

Awaiting your link actually.

[safdar]

?????

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rough-we...for-lca/380530/

that's an excellent find blueazure.

Every fighter can fly in rain snow and fog, the fan of the turbo fan engine works as a centrifuge and flung's the water outwards bypassing the combustion chamber, the problem is when the runway has water on it, quite a bit of this water and dirt could get ingested into the engine due to splashing from landing gears/tyres this could make the engine flame out, most engines can compensate for lose of heat, it seems LCA is a bit too underpowered to even takeoff in wet conditions or the intake need redesigning or maybe landing gear need repositioning, maybe the whole undercarriage needs redesigning or maybe.......anyway i could go on forever...

[Aliph Ahmed]

Awaiting your link actually.

LMAO at your U-Turn. Such a shameless bhangee.

IOC not achieved

The link is from ADA and mentions the source by name.

Now your turn to provide link from ADA that mentions the source by name saying that LCA achieved IOC in November of 2009.

[Aliph Ahmed]

that's an excellent find blueazure.

Every fighter can fly in rain snow and fog, the fan of the turbo fan engine works as a centrifuge and flung's the water outwards bypassing the combustion chamber, the problem is when the runway has water on it, quite a bit of this water and dirt could get ingested into the engine due to splashing from landing gears/tyres this could make the engine flame out, most engines can compensate for lose of heat, it seems LCA is a bit too underpowered to even takeoff in wet conditions or the intake need redesigning or maybe landing gear need repositioning, maybe the whole undercarriage needs redesigning or maybe.......anyway i could go on forever...

Thank you Safdar Bhai.

[lanc]

LMAO at your U-Turn. Such a shameless bhangee.

Resorting to rhetoric are we? What U-turn? I told you since you made the claim that the LSP-2(production variant) is limited to 6Gs and an AoA of 20 degrees please provide a link that backs up your claim. And I'll do the same with all of mine.

IOC not achieved

The link is from ADA and mentions the source by name.

This is the third time you're posting the same one and half year old link. The engine powering the prototype aircraft was the older GE F404 F2J3.

Now your turn to provide link from ADA that mentions the source by name saying that LCA achieved IOC in November of 2009.

Like I stated before the IOC will not be assigned till the aircraft are transferred to the IAF. And I also said I was referring to the flight envelope specified for the IOC. My whole point was in context of your claim that the Tejas was limited to 6Gs and 20 degrees AoA.

[Aliph Ahmed]

Hahahaha. You have no links because there arent any !!

LCA is a piece of junk even after 28 years of development and cant even stand against a K8 trainer if pitted against today !!!!

[Aliph Ahmed]

LCA needs new engine to be worthy of combat

The home-grown Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), which is set to be inducted in 2011, will not be able to fly with a full-weapon load and will also need a new engine—instead of the Kaveri engine—to meet the minimum requirements for fighter aircraft drawn up by the Indian Air Force (IAF). To accommodate these modifications, the planes will also need to be redesigned.

In what could be a deathblow to the indigenous fighter programme, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has conceded that the first lot of planes to enter service will not only carry a limited load of weapons but will also have a restricted ‘angle of attack’, making them unsuitable for aerial combat.

The primary reason for the problem is the lower thrust provided by the GE 404 engine powering the aircraft. While plans to develop a newer engine are under discussion, there is no scope for improvement at least for the first lot of 40 aircraft, of which 20 have already been ordered by the IAF. “There is no way that the first 40 aircraft will have any other engine than the GE 404. The engine gives a power of 80-85 Kilo Newton while the IAF requires them to have a capability of 95-100 Kilo Newton,” a top MoD source said, adding that the current thrust provided by the engine limits the angle of attack — a measure of the maneouverability of the aircraft—to 17 degrees against the IAF’s minimum requirement of 21 degrees. This makes the fighter unsuitable for aerial combat, especially given that neighbouring countries already possess more agile fighter planes.

With the IAF not willing to introduce any more such ‘limited’ fighters, plans are afoot to give the LCA a new engine with greater thrust. However, this would also require a complete redesign. “To put in a new engine, like the GE 414, with this capability, the existing structure of the aircraft will have to be modified. This would need design changes that will take another 3-4 years,” the source said.

However, India is yet to decide whether to go in for a completely imported engine or jointly develop an engine with a leading international player. With the Kaveri engine making little headway, India is planning to rope in manufacturers like General Electric (US), Snecma (France), Rolls Royce (UK) and NPO Saturn (Russia) for the project.


Current LCA not worthy of combat.

Even a K8 trainer can pull greater than 6 gs and a higher than 20 degree AoA !!

[safdar]

Thank you Safdar Bhai.

You just love starting this thread. Lol

Its really cruel, even I feel bad, but LCA has got some really bad problems, they cant let go coming this far and cant complete due to lack of experience and no external help.

you should ask lanc what IOC means in indian aerospace prospective. we can take his claims back to 2005, that LCA is still stuck at a prototype level.

[Aliph Ahmed]

Current status of LCA : (after 28 years of development)

1. Underpowered.
2. Can not carry full weopons load
3. Flying with empty fuel tanks
4. Can not pull greater than 6g
5. Can not achieve AoA of greater than 20 degree.
6. Over weight.
7. No radar.
8. Revised ASR still not met
9. Not suitable for combat.

    

[lanc]

Hahahaha. You have no links because there arent any !!

I've posted the links about the Tejas achieving its IOC flight envelope; Vayu Mag article. Its not an interview with the ADA director, but that doesn't mean its not credible.

LCA is a piece of junk even after 28 years of development and cant even stand against a K8 trainer if pitted against today !!!!

I'm still awaiting a clarification on the claim about a radar somehow being essential for the HMS/HMD to work(or something of that import).

[size=5]
adding that the current thrust provided by the engine limits the angle of attack — a measure of the maneouverability of the aircraft—to 17 degrees against the IAF’s minimum requirement of 21 degrees.

Hmm... you(not me) said before the Tejas has demonstrated an AoA of 20 degrees as opposed to a requirement of 21 and thus claim its a disaster.

With the IAF not willing to introduce any more such ‘limited’ fighters, plans are afoot to give the LCA a new engine with greater thrust. However, this would also require a complete redesign. “To put in a new engine, like the GE 414, with this capability, the existing structure of the aircraft will have to be modified. This would need design changes that will take another 3-4 years,” the source said.

The GE F414 would require a redesign of the fuselage, but the EJ-200 wouldn't.

http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report_iaf-w...jas-but_1320196

However, India is yet to decide whether to go in for a completely imported engine or jointly develop an engine with a leading international player. With the Kaveri engine making little headway, India is planning to rope in manufacturers like General Electric (US), Snecma (France), Rolls Royce (UK) and NPO Saturn (Russia) for the project.

The Kaveri is being jointly developed with Snecma and may in theory be installed on the Rafale if it wins the 126 aircraft order.

Even a K8 trainer can pull greater than 6 gs and a higher than 20 degree AoA !!

Okay. What is the K-8's AoA limit, and out of curiosity ... what's the JF-17's?

[Aliph Ahmed]

I've posted the links about the Tejas achieving its IOC flight envelope; Vayu Mag article. Its not an interview with the ADA director, but that doesn't mean its not credible.

I'm still awaiting a clarification on the claim about a radar somehow being essential for the HMS/HMD to work(or something of that import).

Any link not from ADA and not mentioning a name is not credible. There are links talking about DODO sources mentioaning about making LCA-N VTOL capable too.  

All DASH require input from radars unless you are saying Indian LCA's DASH has its own radar that can track adverse planes 30 km away. Just the thought is making me feel sorry for the LCA pilot wearing a 150kg plus helmet.   

[Aliph Ahmed]

The LCA is believed to be completed in 2003-2005 and is expected to be fully operational and will be exported in any year before 2010.

Link

It is already 2010 and this is the current status of LCA:

1.Underpowered.
2.Can not carry full weopons load
3.Flying with empty fuel tanks
4.Can not pull greater than 6g
5.Can not achieve AoA of greater than 20 degree.
6.Over weight.
7.No radar.
8.Revised ASR still not met
9.Not suitable for combat.

    

[lanc]

Any link not from ADA and not mentioning a name is not credible. There are links talking about DODO sources mentioaning about making LCA-N VTOL capable too.

  

A report directly by the ADA would have been a better source. Do you have any better source than Vayu Mag?(which incidently is better than most big Indian media outlets for aviation news). A recent report from the ADA perhaps...

All DASH require input from radars unless you are saying Indian LCA's DASH has its own radar that can track adverse planes 30 km away. Just the thought is making me feel sorry for the LCA pilot wearing a 150kg plus helmet.

Read through the article again. The HMS is for visual cueing of targets, i.e. for WVR only. A radar has very limited effectiveness at high off-boresight angles.

[Aliph Ahmed]

LCA - Part one.

India’s indigenous Tejas is a plane that is under perpetual development. This “plane” has had the longest development cycle of any train, plane or automobile in the history of world. After a decade of false starts, abject failures, the Tejas remains a butt of jokes among the engineers, journalists and scientists in the aviation industry.

India's LCA program had the following two objectives:

1.The LCA programme was launched in 1983 for two primary purposes. The principal and most obvious goal was the development of a replacement aircraft for India’s ageing Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 (NATO reporting name ‘Fishbed’) fighters. The MiG-21 has been the mainstay of the Indian Air Force since the 1970s, but the initial examples were nearly 20 years old by 1983. The “Long Term Re-Equipment Plan 1981″ noted that the MiG-21’s would be approaching the end of their service lives by the mid-1990s, and that by 1995 the IAF would lack 40% of the aircraft needed to fill its projected force structure requirements.[7] ((15 August 2006). Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Global Security. Retrieved 25 August 2006.)

2.The LCA programme’s other main objective was to serve as the vehicle for an across-the-board advancement of India’s domestic aerospace industry. Sukumar R. (March-April 2001). LCA: Impact on Indian Defense. Bharat Rakshak Monitor.

On both these counts, the Tejas has been a colossal failure. The Tejas has been unable to replace the “Flying Coffins” which are still flying and the Tejas has been unable to create a domestic aircraft industry. The recent tender for $10 Billion forMMRCA planes is a testimonial to the abject failure of the Tejas.

The Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) program began in 1983 out of the rising need to replace the MiG-21s, which even then were becoming obsolete but still constituted the most numerous type of aircraft in the Indian Air Force’s inventory. By 1990, the design for a new plane was finalized, with the aircraft adopting a cranked delta wing and tailless configuration powered by a single turbofan engine.

Five years later the designated manufacturer, Hindustan Aeronautical (HAL), unveiled two prototypes. However, because of difficulties with its flight-control system, the aircraft’s first test flight was delayed another five years, until January 2001. Since then, two more prototypes have been produced, with a naval variant currently undergoing development.


Yet more than two decades since its conception, the Tejas has yet to reach production status. Instead, it continues to perform endless flight tests. Difficulties with flight controls were eventually resolved, but its power plant, the indigenous Kaveri engine, continues to be plagued with technical difficulties, the worst of which was the collapse of the engine during high-altitude tests performed at a Russian base in 2004. Asia Times. Anyone want an obsolete Indian fighter? By David Nguyen

This above excepts was taken from an article written in the Asia Times two years ago. Nothing has changed since then.

[safdar]

I've posted the links about the Tejas achieving its IOC flight envelope.

What does that suppose to mean? they have an IOC for flight envelope, a separate IOC for weapons systems, and a separate IOC for avionics?

I'm still awaiting a clarification on the claim about a radar somehow being essential for the HMS/HMD to work(or something of that import).

The weapon systems and avionics are integrated into a single unit where you have radar, INS, air data system, LDP, FLIR, radio altimeter, communication systems, data link, voice link, radio navigation system, identification system IFF responder and interrogator, missiles identification signal, seeker head position, locked-on to target signal, electronics counter measures system, radar warning receiver, self protection jammer, offensive jammer, etc, etc…..

Does LCA go through a separate IOC for each and every system separately as and when its integrated!!!???

It seems like ADA has still got major problems fixing the ada source code that was compiled manually and had 100 errors per 100,000 lines of source code, which basically means about 40% errors in avionics and weapons systems software.  

Maybe  HAL is waiting for a disaster before they proclaim LCA kaput?

Okay. What is the K-8's AoA limit, and out of curiosity ... what's the JF-17's?

noooo! off topic, goto JF-17 thread

[test]

Aliph I wish you would see the light of reason.
You are putting the onus of proof on Lanc when you yourself are not subordinating your claims with any other proof than a 2 year old article.
Besides , do you even have a point ?

Lanc you win hands down (if this was about winning/losing). Either ways a good debate.
I wish some of us have to learn how to debate or see the other persons point of view and learn to shut up when we are out done.
We have forgotten our old world lessons of humility and hospitality and all we can do now is try to gang up and shout another person down.

its a shame !

[safdar]

We have forgotten our old world lessons of humility and hospitality and all we can do now is try to gang up and shout another person down.

Oh here we go! Mr. 2post bob, you have less credibility then the pile of steaming mule dung next to you in this forum. Maybe you get off sexed up sensationalised news about LCA but the fact of the matter is quite obvious, it’s a failed project.  

What could they achieve in 2 years, that they cant in 27 years! why dont you gather youre ilks and come over here and discuss this.

[Aliph Ahmed]

Oh here we go! Mr. 2post bob, you have less credibility then the pile of steaming mule dung next to you in this forum. Maybe you get off sexed up sensationalised news about LCA but the fact of the matter is quite obvious, it’s a failed project.  

What could they achieve in 2 years, that they cant in 27 years! why dont you gather youre ilks and come over here and discuss this.

Safdar bhai, I am not even going to reply this dude with 2 posts. Lol.

Most likely an Indian bhangee coming to the aid of Lanc in defending their failed triangle shaped plane with only two control surfaces and still under development even after 28 years......  

[test]

[quote name='Aliph Ahmed' post='1207169' date='Jan 12 2010, 06:14 PM']Safdar bhai, I am not even going to reply this dude with 2 posts. Lol.

Edited by Magnus, 13 January 2010 - 11:26 AM.

[test]

how much time do u spend on the internet anyways.

Edited by Magnus, 13 January 2010 - 11:26 AM.

[1Pakistani]

Looks like Aliph has just stepped on some one tail.

Well is he flaming or you indian A$$ is on fire for stating the facts. Now go have cry over it. LCA is piece of junk.

I agree with you we shouldnt compare LCA with K-8. Its an insult to K-8 and its engineers who have produced a flying product which is being used by many air  forces around the world.

its a real shame to compare K-8 with something that has trouble getting off the ground.

Edited by Magnus, 13 January 2010 - 11:26 AM.

[blueazure]

Link

It is already 2010 and this is the current status of LCA:

1.Underpowered.
2.Can not carry full weopons load
3.Flying with empty fuel tanks
4.Can not pull greater than 6g
5.Can not achieve AoA of greater than 20 degree.
6.Over weight.
7.No radar.
8.Revised ASR still not met
9.Not suitable for combat.

    

and add to that, it cant take off in the rain :O :-)

[Aliph Ahmed]

Looks like Aliph has just stepped on some one tail.

Well is he flaming or you indian A$$ is on fire for stating the facts. Now go have cry over it. LCA is piece of junk.

I agree with you we shouldnt compare LCA with K-8. Its an insult to K-8 and its engineers who have produced a flying product which is being used by many air  forces around the world.

its a real shame to compare K-8 with something that has trouble getting off the ground.

    

Seriously, these bhangees can provide me the links and I'll stop but what they are doing is making false claims and no links. and the more they lie, the more they make LCA the butt of jokes.

and that bhangee dude with three posts claiming to be Lahori doesnt even deserve a reply from me.

[Aliph Ahmed]

and add to that, it cant take off in the rain :O :-)

Yes, that too.  

[Pak-Eye]

I agree with you we shouldnt compare LCA with K-8. Its an insult to K-8 and its engineers who have produced a flying product which is being used by many air  forces around the world.

its a real shame to compare K-8 with something that has trouble getting off the ground.

  

[zhou]

You guys used three pages to disscus the LCA.Acturally it's only needed one single link which contains a video to prove that LCA can take off,can be full loaded and can fire someting.Apparenrlly the Indians here can't offer such a link.

[must7]

Seriously, these bhangees can provide me the links and I'll stop but what they are doing is making false claims and no links. and the more they lie, the more they make LCA the butt of jokes.

Aliph .. there is a saying "To cover 1 lie, one has to tell another 100 lies". Exactly the case of our neighbours.

[must7]

QUOTE (must7 @ Jan 12 2010, 03:41 AM)
QUOTE
At a recent function at HAL in Bangalore, the PSU was displaying Tejas, its indigenously produced aircraft, and some other new projects to Defence Minister A K Antony. While the air show started off on a good note, as soon as the much-maligned Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) rolled on to the runway for take-off, it started raining, prompting HAL to call off the flying display. The LCA’s “failure” to take off in drizzle prompted an official to quip that if the enemy knew about this “weakness”, it would launch an attack on India only during the monsoons.



?????

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rough-we...for-lca/380530/

No .. really ... ! God !


Man you guys dont see anything, ISI has launched a secret operation to make india boil more water, which in turn will evaporate into the clouds therefore causing an increase of monsoon rain.

Kaz .. if you were online 10 years back on defense forums .. you will remember how we use to debate & debate & debate and them ridicule us about our JF17 plane which China did not buy & we were developing a mere upgraded Mig-21 etc stories, while their so called LCA was 5th generation fighter plane having nobody in it's league ..

The same was with Arjun and how MBT2000 which was not taken by China was being followed by Pakistan ...

Today no where those these posters accept that all that was a lie and as our lads had claimed .. we proved our project managment of our equipment & as a hindsight even got the next generation of the same equipment lined up for future enhancements .. while their projects are just nothing but hogwash !

[Pak-Eye]

[Pak-Eye]

As much as it has turned into LCA vs K-8 :)



Courtesy: Pakdef

[Aliph Ahmed]

LCA Killer !!!

    

[Aliph Ahmed]

Even a PAC Super Mushak can pull 6g !!  

Link

[safdar]

Even a PAC Super Mushak can pull 6g !!  

Link

Oh no! maybe we should compare to …..ababeel target drone?

[kaz89]

Even a PAC Super Mushak can pull 6g !!  

Link

PAK FA killer   

[lanc]

What does that suppose to mean? they have an IOC for flight envelope, a separate IOC for weapons systems, and a separate IOC for avionics?

No they don't. But, they have a flight envelope specified for the IOC. That's been achieved and the flight trials have ended.

It seems like ADA has still got major problems fixing the ada source code that was compiled manually and had 100 errors per 100,000 lines of source code, which basically means about 40% errors in avionics and weapons systems software.

When was this?  

noooo! off topic, goto JF-17 thread

Just trying to figure out what the AoA should be.

[lanc]

India's LCA program had the following two objectives:

1.The LCA programme was launched in 1983 for two primary purposes. The principal and most obvious goal was the development of a replacement aircraft for India’s ageing Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21 (NATO reporting name ‘Fishbed’) fighters. The MiG-21 has been the mainstay of the Indian Air Force since the 1970s, but the initial examples were nearly 20 years old by 1983. The “Long Term Re-Equipment Plan 1981″ noted that the MiG-21’s would be approaching the end of their service lives by the mid-1990s, and that by 1995 the IAF would lack 40% of the aircraft needed to fill its projected force structure requirements.[7] ((15 August 2006). Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). Global Security. Retrieved 25 August 2006.)

2.The LCA programme’s other main objective was to serve as the vehicle for an across-the-board advancement of India’s domestic aerospace industry. Sukumar R. (March-April 2001). LCA: Impact on Indian Defense. Bharat Rakshak Monitor.
This above excepts was taken from an article written in the Asia Times two years ago. Nothing has changed since then.

The Tejas has been a failure on the first part. The Su-30MKI not the HAL Tejas will be the backbone of the IAF for the foreseeable future.

One the second part... its been a partial success. Overcoming a two and a half generation gap between itself and rest of the world was no mean task but its gotten done.

[safdar]

No they don't. But, they have a flight envelope specified for the IOC. That's been achieved and the flight trials have ended.

When you say flight envelope that does not say anything, every country have their own specific requirements but same military specifics are generally applied to all countries. Military requirements will be operations in the high AOA regions, especially near and post stall regimes, high AOA emergency evasive manoeuvres, make emergency landings, make controlled steep landing approaches, encountering severe atmospheric turbulence and down bursts, make near vertical descents. So far LCA has spent most of the test flying time in a wings level steady state condition in high low hot cold conditions. How could it possibly be ready for IOC?

When was this?

Cant remember no other ADA papers are being released anymore.  

Just trying to figure out what the AoA should be.

no country releases AOA specifications, it could only be calculated from airfoil/thrust parameters, if you must know JF-17 is similar to F-16A early blocks. go to JF-17 section and I'll give a better detailed answer.