234 replies to this topic

[Munir]

The nose cone in J-10B and FC-20 is different !

Don't take the drawings serious. I saw more not possible designed parts.

[M_ZEE32]

I was just tellin that the drawing is not proper ! like the canards and CFTs.

[Munir]

I was just tellin that the drawing is not proper ! like the canards and CFTs.

With those CFT you do not have airbrakes on top side.

[BaburMissile]

Hmmmm the FC-20 Pakistan receives may not be as good as eurofighter......the J-10B China has is already better than the present Eurofighters in service.....only F-22/F-35/Pak-Fa are better and that's not going to be the case much longer in a year when J-xx prototype flies  

Currently the relative air force advanced technology rankings are:
USA, Russia slightly ahead of China, then Europe, then India

2020:
China and USA about the same, then Russia, then Europe, then India

2030:
China, then USA, other rankings same as previous

*Japan and S.Korea have as advanced weapons sciences as Europe but simply do not have the desire to put too much effort into them because USA is stationed there and oversees their militaries

Frankly, no Chinese fighter can currently be compared to the EF or any other Western fighter in that class. China is a relatively new player in the aeronautics industry and has a lot of catching up to do yet. It'll require decades of research, experience and investment before any such comparisons can be made.

We can safely assume that China has the ability and resources to challenge the West technologically in the future as it grows stronger. Needless to say that the Chinese are on the right course in achieving this goal.

[hawkeye-01]

Fully agreed

[Shazman]

Will the FC20 have capabilities to take off/land from motorways (in case air fields are bombed in time of conflict). Have the chinese tested this on the J10A?

Erm, is anyone going to answer my question?

[Dizasta]

^^ That is a good question, Shazman! It is very likely that Pakistan Air Force would incorporate itself or would have it as a requisite in FC-20 (J-10B). Since there are indications that J-10Bs would also be available for People's Liberation Army Navy. It would be safe to say that on both counts (PAF & PLAN), we would be able to have FC-20s (J-10B) capable of take/land on Pakistan Motorways.

[Archangelesk99]

Frankly, no Chinese fighter can currently be compared to the EF or any other Western fighter in that class. China is a relatively new player in the aeronautics industry and has a lot of catching up to do yet. It'll require decades of research, experience and investment before any such comparisons can be made.

We can safely assume that China has the ability and resources to challenge the West technologically in the future as it grows stronger. Needless to say that the Chinese are on the right course in achieving this goal.

are you drunk???  No chinese fighter can be compared to eurofighter or f-16e?  News for you:  j-10b is definitely in league of f-16e and eurofighter in most areas.

jxx?  Only pakfa f35 and f-22 will be in same league

you people just don't seem to understand.....china's rate of progress will only increase for the next 20 years

[safdar]

Well considering that china operates the second world fastest supercomputer which specifically analyses aerodynamics in fighter jets, its only a matter of time that china would just explode technologically, and as it already has a robust mass production facility established in every level of its infrastructure, they could equal quality and quantity levels of the whole of Europe or America within a decade from now.

[Caesar]

Frankly, no Chinese fighter can currently be compared to the EF or any other Western fighter in that class. China is a relatively new player in the aeronautics industry and has a lot of catching up to do yet. It'll require decades of research, experience and investment before any such comparisons can be made.

We can safely assume that China has the ability and resources to challenge the West technologically in the future as it grows stronger. Needless to say that the Chinese are on the right course in achieving this goal.

Agreed.

I understand some members may disagree with this analysis but the ground realities are what you have described above. As I have said this plenty of time in the past, it is not the Metallurgy where China lacks behind, it is the advance Military level electronics and chip technology, including EW suites etc where it is lacking behind. And this is due to the military embargo of the Western nations for the past few decades who are scared of China.

I am sure China will overcome this -- but it will take a few more years.

[buckingham]

J10B under Further Upgrading
A source from the Chinese Aviation Industry told Kanwa that the PLA Air Force was very satisfied with the performance of the upgraded version of J10B, as it is now technologically mature and the price is appropriate.

http://kanwa.com/dnws/showpl.php?id=568

[T-H]

巴基斯坦一旦拥有歼十就可以与印度更好的抗衡了

[BaburMissile]

are you drunk???  No chinese fighter can be compared to eurofighter or f-16e?  News for you:  j-10b is definitely in league of f-16e and eurofighter in most areas.

jxx?  Only pakfa f35 and f-22 will be in same league

you people just don't seem to understand.....china's rate of progress will only increase for the next 20 years

Firstly, shut your mouth and learn some manners. Secondly, have you ever even seen or sat in a J-10B? Are you part of the J-10B fighter jet program? If not, you're in no position to say that J-10B is comparable to anything. You don't even know the real specs of J-10B. As far as I know, the J-10B is still in development stage with deliveries taking place in 2014-2015. How can you compare a fighter that's still evolving and not yet in production phase? FYI, until and unless the concerned Chinese authorities announce the capabilities of J-10B no one can make any comparisons and claims.

J-XX isn't even a reality yet. We've only seen mock-up pics and a lot fan art CGIs. We don't even know how the real thing looks like yet for heaven sake! Let's talk about Chinese fighters that are currently flown and produced from the assembly lines. Let's compare these fighters with F-16E/F or the EF.

It's people like you that make wild claims all over the internet without actually backing up your claims with proper sources. Stop being an internet armchair warrior. A kind request is not to let your mouth loose all the time. Think before uttering.

[BaburMissile]

Agreed.

I understand some members may disagree with this analysis but the ground realities are what you have described above. As I have said this plenty of time in the past, it is not the Metallurgy where China lacks behind, it is the advance Military level electronics and chip technology, including EW suites etc where it is lacking behind. And this is due to the military embargo of the Western nations for the past few decades who are scared of China.

I am sure China will overcome this -- but it will take a few more years.

I agree and that's exactly my point. It's only a matter of time before China is up there with the West. In many respects, China has already made huge advancements.

[Dizasta]

Baburmissile and Achangel, you guys can have a civilized discussion without having to hurl slurs at each other. Respect each other's opinion and offer arguments based on intellect and logic, not anger. Both of you have a valid point, however, the fact of the matter is that niether the F-16E, EF-2000 or the J-10B have been tested in combat for anyone to conclusively draw a definative boundry on these fighters. Please, be polite and be respectful of one another.

[Dizasta]

Baburmissile and Achangel, you guys can have a civilized discussion without having to hurl slurs at each other. Respect each other's opinion and offer arguments based on intellect and logic, not anger. Both of you have a valid point, however, the fact of the matter is that niether the F-16E, EF-2000 or the J-10B have been tested in combat for anyone to conclusively draw a definative boundry on these fighters. Please, be polite and be respectful of one another.

[Saqr]

http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pub.../pub_detail.asp

At the end of 2008 Chinese reports emerged of a new variant of the J-10 testing at Chendgu, and images soon emerges of what is called the “J-10B,” which has a redesigned engine air intake, a new infrared search and tracking (IRST) device and what may be a new AESA radar.  Russian sources suggest that an early Russian Phazotron Corporation AESA radar sold to China in the mid-1990s may have formed the basis for the new Chinese radar.  Some reports also suggest that the J-10B is primarily intended to meet a requirement from Pakistan.  These modifications point to the J-10 having evolved rapidly toward a 4+ generation level of capability.  In 2005 a Russian estimated for the author that China might build up to 1,200 J-10s over its lifetime, while in late 2009 another Russian source stated that so far 300-400 AL-31FN engines had been purchased to support J-10 production.  It is expected that Chengdu will integrate a version of the WS-10A Taihang turbofan into the J-10, while Russia hopes to sell more powerful versions of the AL-31FN.

[BaburMissile]

Baburmissile and Achangel, you guys can have a civilized discussion without having to hurl slurs at each other. Respect each other's opinion and offer arguments based on intellect and logic, not anger. Both of you have a valid point, however, the fact of the matter is that niether the F-16E, EF-2000 or the J-10B have been tested in combat for anyone to conclusively draw a definative boundry on these fighters. Please, be polite and be respectful of one another.

That's exactly what I'm saying! In addition, the EF and particularly the F-16 are very matured and upgraded platforms. These are the main reasons for my scepticism about wild claims of J-10B being comparable to such matured platforms. Perhaps, in certain areas the J-10B outweighs these fighters, yet in other areas may come somewhat short.

http://www.strategycenter.net/research/pub.../pub_detail.asp

Bro, that still doesn't say anything about the J-10B being comparable (performance wise) with the likes of EF and F-16E/F. Until we don't know the full specs of J-10B, EF and F-16E/F we're really only guessing. That doesn't mean to say that J-10B is superior or inferior to the EF for example. It only means that the comparison isn't based on facts and figures, but rather on rough estimates.

[safdar]

Comparing the J-10 to F-16 is understandable however why bring the EF into it, it’s a totally different platform developed between many countries as an air superiority fighter and who some of them will also operate the F-35 alongside it.

Its no wonder you’re going doolally trying to find weaknesses in others arguments its like the laws of physics seize to exist here.

[Saqr]

Bro, that still doesn't say anything about the J-10B being comparable (performance wise) with the likes of EF and F-16E/F. Until we don't know the full specs of J-10B, EF and F-16E/F we're really only guessing. That doesn't mean to say that J-10B is superior or inferior to the EF for example. It only means that the comparison isn't based on facts and figures, but rather on rough estimates.

But at the very least we can accept that the J-10B isn't leagues behind, it is a contemporary (i.e. would use same sort of systems as EF/Rafale/Desert Falcon) as its a 4+/4.5 generation fighter like them.  Beyond that, it would then depend on specific performance parameters and systems, and also how PAF decides to equip the FC-20 (will it use a Chinese or Western AESA?).  That said, I think the general goal of the J-10B for PLAAF was to produce a fighter that can hold its own against all 4+/4.5 generation fighters...it may not be as good, but still good enough to utilize the same sort of technology, same standard of weapon-systems, etc.

[Umair T]

We can divide IAF jets in three categories considering the threat,
1=Mig-21s,Mig-27s,Mig-29s,Mirage-2000s,Jaguars,LCA
2=Su-30 MKI
3=Future MRCA
4=After 2020 ,Stealth fighter maybe PAK-FA

1=6 different aircrafts in first category canbe handled by JF-17s and Mirages upgraded to ROSE-II/III standards considering both these aircrafts will be mainly used inside Pakistan airspace against Migs,Mirage-2000s,LCA and jaguars linked with Chinese AEW&C.

2= For MKI PAF has F-16 MLUs and Block-52s linked with Erieye.

3=PAF will hope to see FC-20 surely neutralizing the threat from IAF MRCA deal,whether it will be SH,rafale or EF-2000.FC-20 will be developed considering the threat,PAF surely wants AESA on FC-20,increased range,quality EW/ECM/ECCM systems.

4=J-XX after 2020(?).

[Londo Molari]

In addition, the EF and particularly the F-16 are very matured and upgraded platforms.

How is EF a very matured platform? It has never seen combat. It is still not even operating in its intended configuration.

[airomerix]

How is EF a very matured platform? It has never seen combat. It is still not even operating in its intended configuration.

EADs has squeezed the lethality of Super Hornet, Opernational Readiness of F-16, versitility of Raptor to make Typhoon. No one can deny the American R&D support in EF-2000 Program.

[airomerix]

We can divide IAF jets in three categories considering the threat,
1=Mig-21s,Mig-27s,Mig-29s,Mirage-2000s,Jaguars,LCA
2=Su-30 MKI
3=Future MRCA
4=After 2020 ,Stealth fighter maybe PAK-FA

1=6 different aircrafts in first category canbe handled by JF-17s and Mirages upgraded to ROSE-II/III standards considering both these aircrafts will be mainly used inside Pakistan airspace against Migs,Mirage-2000s,LCA and jaguars linked with Chinese AEW&C.

2= For MKI PAF has F-16 MLUs and Block-52s linked with Erieye.

3=PAF will hope to see FC-20 surely neutralizing the threat from IAF MRCA deal,whether it will be SH,rafale or EF-2000.FC-20 will be developed considering the threat,PAF surely wants AESA on FC-20,increased range,quality EW/ECM/ECCM systems.

4=J-XX after 2020(?).

You made a perfect classification. +1

[Londo Molari]

EADs has squeezed the lethality of Super Hornet, Opernational Readiness of F-16, versitility of Raptor to make Typhoon. No one can deny the American R&D support in EF-2000 Program.

Its possible that Eurofighter is an amazing fighter. But that is not what the word mature means.

[hala]

巴基斯坦一旦拥有歼十就可以与印度更好的抗衡了

T-H u chinese?

[AWA]

Trumpeter has released a new kit Trumpeter 1:48 PLAAF J-10B Vigorous Dragon
http://www.scalesky.com/review/model-kit/0...ous-dragon.html

Notice the cockpit layout and 2 new missile types. Interestingly MFDs position looks similar to the JF-17's Layout. Do you guys think that this is merely a guess work from Trumpeter design team or a hint of the actual thing?

[Zola]

I believe that the Chinese are a smart people of a nation. Why would they ever develop a jet not exceeding its counterparts performances of the west. In my personal opinion , the Chinese J10 is already superior to F16s, EF and even the Hornets.

I agree to the fact that the doubts remain as it hasn't still been evaluated in a war case scenario, well neither have the EF, RAFAEL and SU30s.

The only reason that the F-16s / F-18s are known for their capabilities is because of the combats it has faced  for the last 15-20 years or so. Even that against 3 & 3.5 gen fighters. Yes the exercises do evaluate the differences  but i still think that the chinese manufacture one of the best products in the world.

Donot think that the Chinese only manufacture rubbish ! Let me remind every 1 that what we see here in PK as chinese components not being of great standards is only because that rubbish is made for the 3rd world countries. Other than that the Chinese make the products matching the EU standards, they are leading the manufacturing industry on the globe with having the manufacturing facilities for the following; SONY, PANASONIC, HITACHI, LG, NOKIA, MOTOROLA, ERICSSON, APPLE, EMPORIO ARMANI, HUGO BOSS, BURBERRY, VERSACE, TOYOTA, BMW, and the list never ends.

The R&D facilities it offers are ''un-matchable'' through out the world. It has already produced the best civilian softwares in almost all kinds and modes for much needed human needs stretching it to the luxury levels. So i just fail to understand why wouldn't it be able to produce good avionics, radars and the rest of the electronic warfare systems and suits for an aeroplane. Remember that the Chinese are smart, not dumb .

[BaburMissile]

How is EF a very matured platform? It has never seen combat. It is still not even operating in its intended configuration.

Let me put it this way, the EF is already upgraded to the third tranche consisting of many Blocks. A fighter which has been in the making for the past decade. A fighter which has been developed by a consortium of European countries. A fighter which has very advanced and proven armament. A fighter project that has cost billions and has had input from technologically advanced countries. A fighter which is currently inducted by 6 air forces of the world with the possibility of future operators. The EF certainly deserves respect.

[BaburMissile]

I believe that the Chinese are a smart people of a nation. Why would they ever develop a jet not exceeding its counterparts performances of the west. In my personal opinion , the Chinese J10 is already superior to F16s, EF and even the Hornets.

I agree to the fact that the doubts remain as it hasn't still been evaluated in a war case scenario, well neither have the EF, RAFAEL and SU30s.

The only reason that the F-16s / F-18s are known for their capabilities is because of the combats it has faced  for the last 15-20 years or so. Even that against 3 & 3.5 gen fighters. Yes the exercises do evaluate the differences  but i still think that the chinese manufacture one of the best products in the world.

Donot think that the Chinese only manufacture rubbish ! Let me remind every 1 that what we see here in PK as chinese components not being of great standards is only because that rubbish is made for the 3rd world countries. Other than that the Chinese make the products matching the EU standards, they are leading the manufacturing industry on the globe with having the manufacturing facilities for the following; SONY, PANASONIC, HITACHI, LG, NOKIA, MOTOROLA, ERICSSON, APPLE, EMPORIO ARMANI, HUGO BOSS, BURBERRY, VERSACE, TOYOTA, BMW, and the list never ends.

The R&D facilities it offers are ''un-matchable'' through out the world. It has already produced the best civilian softwares in almost all kinds and modes for much needed human needs stretching it to the luxury levels. So i just fail to understand why wouldn't it be able to produce good avionics, radars and the rest of the electronic warfare systems and suits for an aeroplane. Remember that the Chinese are smart, not dumb .

You're spot on about that. China produces world class quality and there's no denying that. China has evolved into a powerhouse. However, it would be too premature to make any realistic comparisons at this stage. We should refrain from making such rash and unsubstantiated claims. We can predict and assume that the J-10B would come close to the EF performance wise. Such a statement makes much more sense.

But at the very least we can accept that the J-10B isn't leagues behind, it is a contemporary (i.e. would use same sort of systems as EF/Rafale/Desert Falcon) as its a 4+/4.5 generation fighter like them.  Beyond that, it would then depend on specific performance parameters and systems, and also how PAF decides to equip the FC-20 (will it use a Chinese or Western AESA?).  That said, I think the general goal of the J-10B for PLAAF was to produce a fighter that can hold its own against all 4+/4.5 generation fighters...it may not be as good, but still good enough to utilize the same sort of technology, same standard of weapon-systems, etc.

I fully concur. Don't get me wrong. The J-10B will be a very sophisticated fighter that will give any fighter in its own league a run for its money. The J-10B meets the high end requirements of a modernised PAF.  Without a shred of doubt, J-10B is the future of PAF.

[Zola]

You're spot on about that. China produces world class quality and there's no denying that. China has evolved into a powerhouse. However, it would be too premature to make any realistic comparisons at this stage. We should refrain from making such rash and unsubstantiated claims. We can predict and assume that the J-10B would come close to the EF performance wise. Such a statement makes much more sense.



I fully concur. Don't get me wrong. The J-10B will be a very sophisticated fighter that will give any fighter in its own league a run for its money. The J-10B meets the high end requirements of a modernised PAF.  Without a shred of doubt, J-10B is the future of PAF.

Agreed !

[beijingman]

巴基斯坦一旦拥有歼十就可以与印度更好的抗衡了

You should use English,beacuase  others cannot understand Chinese.The sentence means that Pakistan can fight back the indian more breezily when their airarmy get the J-10b.

[beijingman]

I think China government shoud sell the homemade J-11B to Pakistan airforce,because the  J-11B is a heavy battleplane which can take more weapon and have longer sail than the J-10B.

[rungroot]

I think China government shoud sell the homemade J-11B to Pakistan airforce,because the  J-11B is a heavy battleplane which can take more weapon and have longer sail than the J-10B.

Beijing bro, the J-11B is too big a fighter for us to maintain with two engines and all; Pakistan Air Force's philosophy is to have fighters that are quick and easy to maintain so they can rapidly be deployed.

[beijingman]

Beijing bro, the J-11B is too big a fighter for us to maintain with two engines and all; Pakistan Air Force's philosophy is to have fighters that are quick and easy to maintain so they can rapidly be deployed.

You are right,a weapon form battle effectiveness is the most important! The J-10 and the JF-17's engine is made by Russia,but the J-11B use the engine which is produced by ourselves.Most part of J-11B is designed by the Chinese factory.So J-11B is  different from the Su-27 which was designed by Russia,only they have the same pneumatic appearance.

[hala]

where is china these days! last big news on j-10 was may be in march 2009!

[macau boy]

Thx for asking.

We are doing fine.

[KunLun]

where is china these days! last big news on j-10 was may be in march 2009!

Chine engineer are busy with the next generation J-XX,
while J-10 maturing, tuning this and that and it could not necessarily be noticed visually
myself I am expecting to see the J-10 with home made engine ws-10a this year, but it didn't come

[Eagle4Ever]

Chine engineer are busy with the next generation J-XX,
while J-10 maturing, tuning this and that and it could not necessarily be noticed visually
myself I am expecting to see the J-10 with home made engine ws-10a this year, but it didn't come

All Chinese/Pakistani buddies. I am Hannan. Your Pakistani friend in Nanjing. I am coming for Zhuhai Airshow on 19th, 20th and 21st. I will be in Zhuhai for 3 days. Anyone wana tag along me? You're most welcome. Drop me an SMS at 0086-13913985644.

This time I am armed with newest 3MOS Panasonic 72i frame/sec high def. handy cam with 12MP still pictures... I am going to capture the whole show.. inshallah.

So happy. tickets are booked already. Can someone help me for hotel? SMS me, elong.com has no good offer for Zhuhai.

P.S: Sorry brothers, this message was for Chinese buddies on this forum. You know one here, forward him my Phone number.. thanks

[KunLun]

All Chinese/Pakistani buddies. I am Hannan. Your Pakistani friend in Nanjing. I am coming for Zhuhai Airshow on 19th, 20th and 21st. I will be in Zhuhai for 3 days. Anyone wana tag along me? You're most welcome. Drop me an SMS at 0086-13913985644.

This time I am armed with newest 3MOS Panasonic 72i frame/sec high def. handy cam with 12MP still pictures... I am going to capture the whole show.. inshallah.

So happy. tickets are booked already. Can someone help me for hotel? SMS me, elong.com has no good offer for Zhuhai.

P.S: Sorry brothers, this message was for Chinese buddies on this forum. You know one here, forward him my Phone number.. thanks

Have a nice trip my friend! I'm not able to advise you a hotel, but I'm sure someone here will
show us some nice pictures when available please !