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#1
lein303
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Posted 07 August 2009 - 03:09 PM
#2
Londo Molari
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Posted 07 August 2009 - 05:44 PM
It also happens to be the most capable fighter that China makes, so I would be surprised they are willing to export it, specially given the Russian diplomatic harassment that will be sure to follow.
But in terms of its impact for Pak, definitely it will be a huge boost to PN and PAF's maritime operations. Not only would it be a top class air superiority fighter, its also a long range interceptor. On top of that, it can carry 4 anti-ship missiles, compared with our current anti-ship aircraft that only carry 1.
Given the economic conditions of the country and prior budget commitments to JF-17 and FC-20, I don't see us being able to afford it right now.
#3
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Posted 07 August 2009 - 05:55 PM
Squadron for PN is lesser than PAF's 18, I think 12 (not sure).
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#4
lein303
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Posted 07 August 2009 - 06:58 PM
It also happens to be the most capable fighter that China makes, so I would be surprised they are willing to export it, specially given the Russian diplomatic harassment that will be sure to follow.
But in terms of its impact for Pak, definitely it will be a huge boost to PN and PAF's maritime operations. Not only would it be a top class air superiority fighter, its also a long range interceptor. On top of that, it can carry 4 anti-ship missiles, compared with our current anti-ship aircraft that only carry 1.
Given the economic conditions of the country and prior budget commitments to JF-17 and FC-20, I don't see us being able to afford it right now.
The J-11 isnt expensive at all I think the cost is less than that of the J-10. Infact the russians have no parts in the J-11B which is fully chinese. Only the engines are the issue and not only are the chinese developing their own al-31 copy but the russian export burea has already cleared exports for the engines to Pakistan incase Pakistan does go for it. It seems to my knowledge Pakistan is in advanced stages since such a clearance was given. Not only could it serve as a strong asset against carriers (a true carrier destroyer) but it could also serve as a aggressor fighter in training
#5
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Posted 07 August 2009 - 08:00 PM
It also happens to be the most capable fighter that China makes, so I would be surprised they are willing to export it, specially given the Russian diplomatic harassment that will be sure to follow.
But in terms of its impact for Pak, definitely it will be a huge boost to PN and PAF's maritime operations. Not only would it be a top class air superiority fighter, its also a long range interceptor. On top of that, it can carry 4 anti-ship missiles, compared with our current anti-ship aircraft that only carry 1.
Given the economic conditions of the country and prior budget commitments to JF-17 and FC-20, I don't see us being able to afford it right now.
Posters at pakdef.info came out with this news but these are basic rumors from what i know, if PN decides to go for J-11 we must consider which version would it be a basic J-11 or the pimped up Chinese version called the J-11B which i believe is about 30 to 32 million a pop. going by what you say even if PN buys a squadren they would buy atleast 2 to 4 extra aircraft for possiable peace time or war time attractions. Having said that this shouldnt cost more then 500 to 700 million weapons, spares and everything included but if PN is indeed taking such a decision then 2 squadrens should be sought for this purpose keeping IN carrier wing plus SU-30MKI aircrafts dedicated for anti shipping purpose..
#6
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Posted 07 August 2009 - 09:22 PM
#7
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Posted 07 August 2009 - 10:39 PM
They can be used but the point is they will be working twice as much already since they will be the 1st Bvr equipt squadren with the Aim-120C5's where as almost one whole squadren would be going to TAI turkey for F-16 MLU3 upgrade, so they cant be send over to the Navy, hell they wouldnt be ble to provide cover to PA even for CAS role their hands will be full of AAD, SEAD and DEAD duties.
Dont you think its time PN had its own damn naval wing and its completely independent from PAF.
#8
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Posted 08 August 2009 - 12:21 AM
PN does not have expertises in flying jets and therefore I think it is better if there is a a specialist arm in PAF dedicated for Naval role.
#9
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Posted 08 August 2009 - 12:37 AM
Indeed my point was the finances should come from the PN and its should be its own dedicated airwing i.e all the decisions should be made by the naval aviation department how to use them, when to use them and how to deploy these assets infact pilots and technations should be from PAF but the Naval wing should have its own brach of dedicated Naval pilots specializing in Naval AAD and Anti-shiping duties.
#10
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Posted 08 August 2009 - 06:59 AM
#11
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Posted 08 August 2009 - 10:03 AM
J-11
Crew: 1
Length: 21.9 m (72 ft 0 in)
Wingspan: 14.70 m (48 ft 3 in)
Height: 5.92 m (19 ft 6 in)
Wing area: 62.04 m² (667.8 ft²)
Empty weight: 16,380 kg (36,110 lb)
Loaded weight: 23,140 kg (51,010 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 33,000 kg (73,000 lb)
Powerplant: 2× Lyulka AL-31F or Woshan WS-10A "Taihang" turbofans
Dry thrust: 74.5 kN / 89.17 kN (16,800 lbf / 20,050 lbf)[9] each
Thrust with afterburner: 123 kN / 129.4 kN (27,600 lbf / 29,101 lbf) [10] each
Performance
Maximum speed: Mach 2.35 (2,500 km/h, 1,600 mph)
Range: 3,720 km (2,010 nm, 2,310 mi)
Combat radius: 2,000 km (1,240 mi)
Service ceiling: 19,000 m (62,523 ft)
Rate of climb: >325 m/s (64,000 ft/min)
Wing loading: 371.0 kg/m² (76 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight:
Dry: 0.66
With afterburner: 1.09
G-limit: 9 g
Armament
Guns: 1× 30 mm (1.18 in) Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-1 cannon
Hardpoints: 10: 2 under fuselage, 2 under air ducts, 4 under wings, 2 on wingtips with provisions to carry combinations of:
Missiles:
PL-12
PL-9
PL-8
Vympel R-27
Vympel R-77
Vympel R-73
Rockets: Unguided rocket launcher
Bombs: Free-fall cluster bombs
Avionics
Fire-control radar: NIIP Tikhomirov N001VE Myech coherent pulse Doppler radar
OEPS-27 electro-optic system
NSts-27 helmet-mounted sight (HMS)
Gardeniya ECM pods
MIG 29
Crew: One
Length: 17.37 m (57 ft)
Wingspan: 11.4 m (37 ft 3 in)
Height: 4.73 m (15 ft 6 in)
Wing area: 38 m² (409 ft²)
Empty weight: 11,000 kg (24,250 lb)
Loaded weight: 16,800 kg (37,000 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 21,000 kg (46,300 lb)
Powerplant: 2× Klimov RD-33 afterburning turbofans, 8,300 kgf (81.4 kN, 18,300 lbf) each
Performance
Maximum speed: Mach 2.25 (2,400 km/h, 1,490 mph) At low altitude: 1,500 km/h, 930 mph
Range: 700 km (430 mi)
Ferry range: 2,100 km (1,800 mi) with 1 drop tank
Service ceiling: 18,013 m (59,100 ft)
Rate of climb: initial 330 m/s average 109 m/s 0-6000 m[90] (65,000 ft/min)
Wing loading: 442 kg/m² (90.5 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 1.13
Armament
1x 30 mm GSh-30-1 cannon with 100 rounds
Up to 3,500 kg (7,720 lb) of weapons including six air-to-air missiles — a mix of semi-active radar homing (SARH) and AA-8 "Aphid", AA-10 "Alamo", AA-11 "Archer", AA-12 "Adder", FAB 500-M62, FAB-1000, TN-100, ECM Pods, S-24, AS-12, AS-14.
Avionics
Phazotron N019, N010 radars
#12
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Posted 08 August 2009 - 11:51 AM
........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........
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#13
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Posted 08 August 2009 - 12:08 PM
Pakistan's GDP is 160 billion $............this is less than many major cities around the world.........j-11s with western avionics is a delusion
#14
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Posted 08 August 2009 - 12:39 PM
http://news.bbc.co.u...ast/8180413.stm
#15
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Posted 08 August 2009 - 12:58 PM
Its never the machine but the MAN itself.
#16
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Posted 09 August 2009 - 01:51 AM
#17
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#18
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Posted 09 August 2009 - 02:42 AM
#19
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Posted 09 August 2009 - 04:42 AM
Squadron for PN is lesser than PAF's 18, I think 12 (not sure).
I highly doubt it. Chinese J-11's are Russian Flankers under licensed production. The nod has to come from Russia, not China.
And we've already discussed this topic to death before, many times.
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#20
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Posted 09 August 2009 - 05:45 AM
China wants to sell it... Correct. They would even go for development joint naval version.
Cash... Not very serious problem if only one squadron. It is short term 2011-12 or long term 2015+
Risk? Some. Engine, avionics and weapons.
But... It depends on what India will do concerning their MRCA program...
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#21
Londo Molari
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Posted 09 August 2009 - 08:17 AM
Despite J-11B having no Russian parts, export of it to Pakistan will still result in heavy diplomatic harassment from Russia to China, as India would be panicking much more than sale of RD-93 engines. J-11B is a class of aircraft Pakistan has not had before.
#22
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Posted 09 August 2009 - 08:27 AM
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#23
Londo Molari
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Posted 09 August 2009 - 08:31 AM
#24
lein303
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Posted 09 August 2009 - 12:32 PM
#25
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Posted 09 August 2009 - 07:56 PM
#26
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Posted 10 August 2009 - 09:37 AM
True. The MRCA program is definitely going to change the stategic landscape of power in the Sub-continent. Pakistan will need to off-set it and it is likely that any such decision for further acquisitions will depend on evaluating the outcome of the Indian choice for the MRCA program. My gut says they will go for a US system (F-16IN or F-18).
The PN will need an aircraft that has range and payload for maritime operations. J-11 seems like a good fit. If J-11 is what Pakistan Navy (PN) goes for, then it will be a new breed and class of aircraft for Pakistan, it would be strange that PN would be taking this step of incorporating a russian twin-engine fighter that PAF has been mulling since ever.
Eitherway, PN having its own fighter fleet will dramatically increase PAF's capabilities by freeing up resources and responsibility. With the Erieye's coming, PAF and PN air assets can be linked and managed like never before. PAF can have oversight but PN can micromanage. If there ever was a time for PN to have its own dedicated air arm then it is now.
#27
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Posted 11 August 2009 - 01:52 AM
#28
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Posted 11 August 2009 - 03:19 AM
2 Sqaurdons of Mirage 2000 for PN would be perfect fit
The honor of being Muslims is more than enough for us.
#29
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Posted 11 August 2009 - 06:53 AM
y
its a 2 engine plane
thats y
and its against the decided requirements of armed forces
#30
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Posted 11 August 2009 - 09:45 AM
y
its a 2 engine plane
thats y
and its against the decided requirements of armed forces
A5 has to engines... FT6/F6 has two engines... There are no special reasons about two engines...
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#31
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Posted 11 August 2009 - 12:03 PM
However the 2 engine restrictions were for PAF, and not PN, and J-11 was exempted from those conditions.
The only 2 engines that Pakistan can consider now is J-11, or none at all.
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#32
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Posted 11 August 2009 - 02:33 PM
The honor of being Muslims is more than enough for us.
#33
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Posted 11 August 2009 - 03:19 PM
To handle others, use your heart.
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There is no beginning or end....
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Tomorrow is mystery.
Today is a gift.
#34
lein303
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Posted 11 August 2009 - 05:33 PM
However the 2 engine restrictions were for PAF, and not PN, and J-11 was exempted from those conditions.
The only 2 engines that Pakistan can consider now is J-11, or none at all.
Agreed, we shouldnt be mixing up the requirments of the navy and airforce. The navy needs a lean fighting machine that could take on Mig-29's and at the same time pose a major threat to carriers. Sure we could use the JF-17 but do we want to lower our guard? Its not a matter of whether or not we could accomplish the mission but which fighter best could do it and under naval cicumstances where speed, range and payload are more looked upon than ground strike or air missions
#35
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Posted 12 August 2009 - 04:20 PM
Its never the machine but the MAN itself.
#36
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Posted 12 August 2009 - 04:22 PM
We could do that but in a real war time scenario the falcons would be to busy patrolling or doing other missions. The air launched harpoon were primarily acquired for use with the orions
#37
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#38
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Posted 13 August 2009 - 07:30 AM
y
its a 2 engine plane
thats y
and its against the decided requirements of armed forces
There’s a reason long range fighters have two engines, it’s so they have sufficient thrust to overcome their larger size and weight. So they can carry more ... and navy around the world like this idea.
#39
Londo Molari
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Posted 15 August 2009 - 04:05 PM
Also, if one engine malfunctions while aircaft is over the sea, it can still return home safely. With single engine you are in trouble.
#40
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