94 replies to this topic

[lein303]

Their have been rumors in circulation within naval circles (one of which is my source) that Pakistan is very closely looking at procuring the J-11 for the Naval aviation arm. This would be a major boost to the Pakistani navy's range of operations and capability, since the chinese flanker could carry upto 4-5 ASM. The russian connection for the engines has already been delt with and the russians have cleared orders.

[Londo Molari]

First of all J-11's are expensive. Its the most expensive fighter that China makes right now. It would be a major acquisition for Pakistan even if we get the minimum quantity of 1 squadron, that's going to be $750 million to $1 billion range, including logistics, weapons, and spares... subsequent units would be cheaper, but this much will have to be spent for sure.

It also happens to be the most capable fighter that China makes, so I would be surprised they are willing to export it, specially given the Russian diplomatic harassment that will be sure to follow.

But in terms of its impact for Pak, definitely it will be a huge boost to PN and PAF's maritime operations. Not only would it be a top class air superiority fighter, its also a long range interceptor. On top of that, it can carry 4 anti-ship missiles, compared with our current anti-ship aircraft that only carry 1.

Given the economic conditions of the country and prior budget commitments to JF-17 and FC-20, I don't see us being able to afford it right now.

[Felicius]

China said yes to J-11 for Pakistan long time ago, it us who aren't decided on between them now or later.
Squadron for PN is lesser than PAF's 18, I think 12 (not sure).

[lein303]

First of all J-11's are expensive. Its the most expensive fighter that China makes right now. It would be a major acquisition for Pakistan even if we get the minimum quantity of 1 squadron, that's going to be $750 million to $1 billion range, including logistics, weapons, and spares... subsequent units would be cheaper, but this much will have to be spent for sure.

It also happens to be the most capable fighter that China makes, so I would be surprised they are willing to export it, specially given the Russian diplomatic harassment that will be sure to follow.

But in terms of its impact for Pak, definitely it will be a huge boost to PN and PAF's maritime operations. Not only would it be a top class air superiority fighter, its also a long range interceptor. On top of that, it can carry 4 anti-ship missiles, compared with our current anti-ship aircraft that only carry 1.

Given the economic conditions of the country and prior budget commitments to JF-17 and FC-20, I don't see us being able to afford it right now.

The J-11 isnt expensive at all I think the cost is less than that of the J-10. Infact the russians have no parts in the J-11B which is fully chinese. Only the engines are the issue and not only are the chinese developing their own al-31 copy but the russian export burea has already cleared exports for the engines to Pakistan incase Pakistan does go for it. It seems to my knowledge Pakistan is in advanced stages since such a clearance was given. Not only could it serve as a strong asset against carriers (a true carrier destroyer) but it could also serve as a aggressor fighter in training

[Best of the Best]

First of all J-11's are expensive. Its the most expensive fighter that China makes right now. It would be a major acquisition for Pakistan even if we get the minimum quantity of 1 squadron, that's going to be $750 million to $1 billion range, including logistics, weapons, and spares... subsequent units would be cheaper, but this much will have to be spent for sure.

It also happens to be the most capable fighter that China makes, so I would be surprised they are willing to export it, specially given the Russian diplomatic harassment that will be sure to follow.

But in terms of its impact for Pak, definitely it will be a huge boost to PN and PAF's maritime operations. Not only would it be a top class air superiority fighter, its also a long range interceptor. On top of that, it can carry 4 anti-ship missiles, compared with our current anti-ship aircraft that only carry 1.

Given the economic conditions of the country and prior budget commitments to JF-17 and FC-20, I don't see us being able to afford it right now.

Posters at pakdef.info came out with this news but these are basic rumors from what i know, if PN decides to go for J-11 we must consider which version would it be a basic J-11 or the pimped up Chinese version called the J-11B which i believe is about 30 to 32 million a pop. going by what you say even if PN buys a squadren they would buy atleast 2 to 4 extra aircraft for possiable peace time or war time attractions. Having said that this shouldnt cost more then 500 to 700 million weapons, spares and everything included but if PN is indeed taking such a decision then 2 squadrens should be sought for this purpose keeping IN carrier wing plus SU-30MKI aircrafts dedicated for anti shipping purpose..

[Caesar]

Why can't all of the 18 new F-16 Blk 50/52 not be used for naval purposes only????

[Best of the Best]

Why can't all of the 18 new F-16 Blk 50/52 not be used for naval purposes only????

They can be used but the point is they will be working twice as much already since they will be the 1st Bvr equipt squadren with the Aim-120C5's where as almost one whole squadren would be going to TAI turkey for F-16 MLU3 upgrade, so they cant be send over to the Navy, hell they wouldnt be ble to provide cover to PA even for CAS role their hands will be full of AAD, SEAD and DEAD duties.

Dont you think its time PN had its own damn naval wing and its completely independent from PAF.

[Caesar]

Dont you think its time PN had its own damn naval wing and its completely independent from PAF.

PN does not have expertises in flying jets and therefore I think it is better if there is a a specialist arm in PAF dedicated for Naval role.

[Best of the Best]

PN does not have expertises in flying jets and therefore I think it is better if there is a a specialist arm in PAF dedicated for Naval role.

Indeed my point was the finances should come from the PN and its should be its own dedicated airwing i.e all the decisions should be made by the naval aviation department how to use them, when to use them and how to deploy these assets infact pilots and technations should be from PAF but the Naval wing should have its own brach of dedicated Naval pilots specializing in Naval AAD and Anti-shiping duties.

[leuitenentcolonel]

i think it would give PN a HUGE HUGE advantage over IN if PN really goes for it biggest advantage is that we dont have to fear about spares and parts as J-11B contain more chinese equipment that Russkie, secondly i think its roughly a 30mn a peice i hope PN acquires it and also FBC-1 for their air wing

[leuitenentcolonel]

Comparison of Chinese J-11 and Indian Mig

J-11
Crew: 1
Length: 21.9 m (72 ft 0 in)
Wingspan: 14.70 m (48 ft 3 in)
Height: 5.92 m (19 ft 6 in)
Wing area: 62.04 m² (667.8 ft²)
Empty weight: 16,380 kg (36,110 lb)
Loaded weight: 23,140 kg (51,010 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 33,000 kg (73,000 lb)
Powerplant: 2× Lyulka AL-31F or Woshan WS-10A "Taihang" turbofans
Dry thrust: 74.5 kN / 89.17 kN (16,800 lbf / 20,050 lbf)[9] each
Thrust with afterburner: 123 kN / 129.4 kN (27,600 lbf / 29,101 lbf) [10] each
Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 2.35 (2,500 km/h, 1,600 mph)
Range: 3,720 km (2,010 nm, 2,310 mi)
Combat radius: 2,000 km (1,240 mi)
Service ceiling: 19,000 m (62,523 ft)
Rate of climb: >325 m/s (64,000 ft/min)
Wing loading: 371.0 kg/m² (76 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight:
Dry: 0.66
With afterburner: 1.09
G-limit: 9 g
Armament


Guns: 1× 30 mm (1.18 in) Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-30-1 cannon
Hardpoints: 10: 2 under fuselage, 2 under air ducts, 4 under wings, 2 on wingtips with provisions to carry combinations of:
Missiles:

PL-12
PL-9
PL-8
Vympel R-27
Vympel R-77
Vympel R-73
Rockets: Unguided rocket launcher
Bombs: Free-fall cluster bombs
Avionics


Fire-control radar: NIIP Tikhomirov N001VE Myech coherent pulse Doppler radar
OEPS-27 electro-optic system
NSts-27 helmet-mounted sight (HMS)
Gardeniya ECM pods

MIG 29

Crew: One
Length: 17.37 m (57 ft)
Wingspan: 11.4 m (37 ft 3 in)
Height: 4.73 m (15 ft 6 in)
Wing area: 38 m² (409 ft²)
Empty weight: 11,000 kg (24,250 lb)
Loaded weight: 16,800 kg (37,000 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 21,000 kg (46,300 lb)
Powerplant: 2× Klimov RD-33 afterburning turbofans, 8,300 kgf (81.4 kN, 18,300 lbf) each
Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 2.25 (2,400 km/h, 1,490 mph) At low altitude: 1,500 km/h, 930 mph
Range: 700 km (430 mi)
Ferry range: 2,100 km (1,800 mi) with 1 drop tank
Service ceiling: 18,013 m (59,100 ft)
Rate of climb: initial 330 m/s average 109 m/s 0-6000 m[90] (65,000 ft/min)
Wing loading: 442 kg/m² (90.5 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 1.13
Armament


1x 30 mm GSh-30-1 cannon with 100 rounds
Up to 3,500 kg (7,720 lb) of weapons including six air-to-air missiles — a mix of semi-active radar homing (SARH) and AA-8 "Aphid", AA-10 "Alamo", AA-11 "Archer", AA-12 "Adder", FAB 500-M62, FAB-1000, TN-100, ECM Pods, S-24, AS-12, AS-14.
Avionics


Phazotron N019, N010 radars

[Dizasta]

J-11s with some Pakistani ingenuity and some good radar, ecm & etc, would prove to be really good. Something similar on the lines of the Malaysian Flankers. Perhaps have some western avionics incorporated into it and we would have a really good fighter in Pakistan Navy's hands! It is high time that Pakistan Navy aquires its own fighters to possess Air Dominance in its maritime territory. J-11s would prove more than a match for those old Harriers the enemy has!

[Archangelesk99]

J-11s with some Pakistani ingenuity and some good radar, ecm & etc, would prove to be really good. Something similar on the lines of the Malaysian Flankers. Perhaps have some western avionics incorporated into it and we would have a really good fighter in Pakistan Navy's hands! It is high time that Pakistan Navy aquires its own fighters to possess Air Dominance in its maritime territory. J-11s would prove more than a match for those old Harriers the enemy has!

Pakistan's GDP is 160 billion $............this is less than many major cities around the world.........j-11s with western avionics is a delusion

[Magnus]

Pakistan cannot even afford the present defense expenditure. But that is the cost of liberty or you will also be weeping outside your own house while Mr Bajaj will live in your house and use your stuff. (See Palestinians for instance)

http://news.bbc.co.u...ast/8180413.stm

[M_ZEE32]

Not the right time for opt such squadron right now !

[leuitenentcolonel]

OK well not now but this step has to be taken sooner or later. We need aerial power, i dont think J-11 is not more than 25-30mn a piece, quantity is not an issue with CHina, another option with it is FBC-1B

[hawkeye-01]

this is a nice concept for pak navy if we can afford?

[fanna4paf]

we can afford Pakistan should go for it with chinese equitment with best redar and sd10 missiles etc etc. its a really good oftion for Pakistan and if otherwise we should go for refuel

[_killuminati_]

China said yes to J-11 for Pakistan long time ago, it us who aren't decided on between them now or later.
Squadron for PN is lesser than PAF's 18, I think 12 (not sure).

I highly doubt it. Chinese J-11's are Russian Flankers under licensed production. The nod has to come from Russia, not China.

And we've already discussed this topic to death before, many times.

[Munir]

PN wants is... Correct.
China wants to sell it... Correct. They would even go for development joint naval version.
Cash... Not very serious problem if only one squadron. It is short term 2011-12 or long term 2015+
Risk? Some. Engine, avionics and weapons.

But... It depends on what India will do concerning their MRCA program...

[Londo Molari]

If its true, it will truly be exciting for PN. But given Pakistan's situation it just doesn't seem possible OR SMART to me. We can buy all the fancy military equipment we want once we are economically strong and stable. China had a garbage armed force FOR 30 YEARS (1965-1995), while working hard to become an economic giant. They relied on their nuclear deterrent to protect themselves during that time. NOW they can afford to spend world-class money on their military. We should do the same. If we keep bankrupting ourselves with stuff we cant afford, we'll stay poor, while India, due to its natural size advantage, will become too big for us to defend against. I think with JF-17 and F-22P, Pakistan is currently on the right track. Only buy expensive equipment when we have no choice, like submarines.

The J-11 isnt expensive at all I think the cost is less than that of the J-10.

The engine is the most expensive part, and J-11B has two engines of the same size/class as J-10. And it is bigger, has more payload, more range. It is definitely more expensive. If J-10 is around 30 million, I would expect J-11B to be around 40 million. Original J-11 (not J-11B) is license-production Russian Su-27. That is out of the question. Not only will Russia not allow it, the technology is old. J-11B is completely new aircraft inside, as advanced as J-10. So minimum 18 aircraft x 40 million = 720 million + logistics/training/weapons for a completely new type of aircraft for PAF. $1 billion total.

Despite J-11B having no Russian parts, export of it to Pakistan will still result in heavy diplomatic harassment from Russia to China, as India would be panicking much more than sale of RD-93 engines. J-11B is a class of aircraft Pakistan has not had before.

Indeed my point was the finances should come from the PN and its should be its own dedicated airwing i.e all the decisions should be made by the naval aviation department how to use them, when to use them and how to deploy these assets infact pilots and technations should be from PAF but the Naval wing should have its own brach of dedicated Naval pilots specializing in Naval AAD and Anti-shiping duties.

That already happens. PAF has a Mirage III squadron dedicated to Maritime operations and which works together with PN. Having a squadron that actually SAYS "Pakistan Navy" on the aircraft will mean that the employees, aircraft and everything else will have to belong to PN, and then it will be weird because they will constantly have to be sent to PAF for training, repairs, and PAF will lose the flexibility of having another squadron.

[aziqbal]

JF17 and FC20 are fine, why would be want to diversify our fighters even more, we dont have history of operating any flankers and such small numbers will make not much economic sense, Malaysia operates few of them but they got the money

[Londo Molari]

Edit: deleted post about FFG, posted in wrong thread

[lein303]

What I am saying is that the naval aviation arm should adopt the J-11 not the air force (which has a totally different requirment for multirole fighters which could perform different roles and switch in wartime). The PN navy naturally needs a fighter that could cover the coast line very fast (J-11 is a very fast fighter), a fighter which has a long range radar to identify ships far away (once again J-11 surpasses most fighters in this), a fighter which could carry around 4 asm (this would pose a major threat not only to ships but also IN air craft carriers), and lastly the J-11's speed, manuverability, and ecm could defeat Ship launched sams with more ease than the mirage or JF-17

[Caesar]

It is a know fact that India has major issues with Flanker maintenance--if J-11 has similar issues then we should never go for it!!

[Paki Phantom]

But... It depends on what India will do concerning their MRCA program...

True. The MRCA program is definitely going to change the stategic landscape of power in the Sub-continent. Pakistan will need to off-set it and it is likely that any such decision for further acquisitions will depend on evaluating the outcome of the Indian choice for the MRCA program. My gut says they will go for a US system (F-16IN or F-18).

The PN will need an aircraft that has range and payload for maritime operations. J-11 seems like a good fit. If J-11 is what Pakistan Navy (PN) goes for, then it will be a new breed and class of aircraft for Pakistan, it would be strange that PN would be taking this step of incorporating a russian twin-engine fighter that PAF has been mulling since ever.

Eitherway, PN having its own fighter fleet will dramatically increase PAF's capabilities by freeing up resources and responsibility. With the Erieye's coming, PAF and PN air assets can be linked and managed like never before. PAF can have oversight but PN can micromanage. If there ever was a time for PN to have its own dedicated air arm then it is now.

[PakiWorrior]

Pakistan would rather modify JF-17s to take anti-ship missiles. Not only Pakistan can build in numbers but it will be cheap to maintain. the biggest problem with Russian tech is their mantainence cost and operational reliability is low.

[Pak-Eye]

What happened to the UAE consideration to replace its 60 Mirage fighters with French Rafale

2 Sqaurdons of Mirage 2000 for PN would be perfect fit

[hala]

will never happen,


y


its a 2 engine plane


thats y

and its against the decided requirements of armed forces

[Munir]

will never happen,


y


its a 2 engine plane


thats y

and its against the decided requirements of armed forces

A5 has to engines... FT6/F6 has two engines... There are no special reasons about two engines...

[Felicius]

^ hala is referring to the 2004 document, AFFDP-2019.
However the 2 engine restrictions were for PAF, and not PN, and J-11 was exempted from those conditions.

The only 2 engines that Pakistan can consider now is J-11, or none at all.

[Pak-Eye]

^This bhindian MRCA tender has made PAF/PN waiting for quite a while now ... thier snail-pace trials are gonne be long one, as usual, with lot of PR topi-dramay

[Munir]

There are rumours (Janes) that Russia offered su32/35 (naval version) to China... At the moment India decides it hardly matters what Pakistan wants. The rest of the team will gladly sell it to them. At this time no one wants to embarras the Indians... I am reading Alan Warnes book and a part about J10 just suprised me... PAF does not see the AL31 as a problem since they got RD93 and this next plane has the same logic. The only difference is that PAF did not join anything and is only getting it as an end user...

[lein303]

^ hala is referring to the 2004 document, AFFDP-2019.
However the 2 engine restrictions were for PAF, and not PN, and J-11 was exempted from those conditions.

The only 2 engines that Pakistan can consider now is J-11, or none at all.

Agreed, we shouldnt be mixing up the requirments of the navy and airforce. The navy needs a lean fighting machine that could take on Mig-29's and at the same time pose a major threat to carriers. Sure we could use the JF-17 but do we want to lower our guard? Its not a matter of whether or not we could accomplish the mission but which fighter best could do it and under naval cicumstances where speed, range and payload are more looked upon than ground strike or air missions

[M_ZEE32]

HOw would you like the falcon doin the job with Harpoons and do they have the capability right now ?

[lein303]

HOw would you like the falcon doin the job with Harpoons and do they have the capability right now ?

We could do that but in a real war time scenario the falcons would be to busy patrolling or doing other missions. The air launched harpoon were primarily acquired for use with the orions

[chengdusudise]

[aamirzs]

will never happen,


y


its a 2 engine plane


thats y

and its against the decided requirements of armed forces

There’s a reason long range fighters have two engines, it’s so they have sufficient thrust to overcome their larger size and weight. So they can carry more ... and navy around the world like this idea.

[Londo Molari]

There’s a reason long range fighters have two engines, it’s so they have sufficient thrust to overcome their larger size and weight. So they can carry more ... and navy around the world like this idea.

Also, if one engine malfunctions while aircaft is over the sea, it can still return home safely. With single engine you are in trouble.

[M_ZEE32]

Ah !