Internal Operations - Thread, Swat, Wazieristan Options

[AL-khalid]

Pakistan deal with Taliban 'collapses' as convoy is attacked

A peace deal between the Pakistani government and the Taliban appears to have collapsed after militants attacked an army convoy in Swat Valley.

The fragile agreement, in which the government said it would allow Islamic law in the region in exchange for militants laying down their arms, was left in tatters when a soldier was killed in an ambush.

It came just a day after two local officials were beheaded and Taliban fighters began patrolling Mingora, Swat's main town.

A Taliban spokesman blamed the government and military for provoking the violence saying it had sabotaged the peace process to appease the United States.

Muslim Khan, said that the controversial peace deal "practically stands dissolved".

"This is not our army, this is not our government. They're worse enemies of Muslims than the Americans," he said. "They're US stooges and now it's clear that either we'll be martyred (killed) or we'll march forward," he added.

The attack came despite Pakistan making further concessions to the Taliban by establishing an Islamic appeal court. Officials had insisted that by carrying out its part of the agreement, the government could gain more support from the public to take action against the Taliban if the militants violate the pact.

The apparent collapse of the deal raised the prospect of the Pakistani army having to retake control of Swat where the militants are deeply entrenched and where the army conducted an unsuccessful operation until February. Rejoining the battle in Swat would involve heavy casualties and uprooting thousands more people from their homes.

Mian Iftikhar Hussain, Northwest Frontier Province Information Minister, who helped negotiate the pact said: "We set up Islamic courts, we gave them Islamic judges, yet they do not accept this. They have some other agenda. We will fight them and, God willing, these handful of miscreants will be defeated and the nation will prevail."

Since the peace agreement was signed in February, militants have infiltrated neighbouring districts of Buner and Dir where fierce fighting continued.

The Pakistani army last night accused militants of holding 2,000 villagers in Pir Baba in Buner as human shields to stop an offensive being launched.

The growing strength of the Taliban has raised alarm in the United States which has openly questioned the ability of the government to stand up to the militants.

Washington has expressed concern, with Barack Obama acknowledging the government was "very fragile" and secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, saying Pakistan was "basically abdicating" to the Taliban.

Mr Obama will present his strategy for defeating the militants to Asif Ali Zardari, the Pakistani President, and Afghanistan leaders when they arrive in Washington on Wednesday.

Washington has said it wants Pakistan to fight the militants, not talk to them, and is unlikely to mourn the three-month-old deal in the region if it breaks down.

Mr Zardari hopes to build American confidence in his government's ability to tackle militancy and secure a massive aid package.

It has emerged American officials are increasingly concerned about the vulnerability of Pakistan's nuclear arsenal as the country's security deteriorates.

The New York Times published a report saying Mr Obama's government was worried Taliban militants could snatch a weapon in transport or get sympathisers to infiltrate laboratories or fuel-production facilities.

The US does not know where all of Pakistan's nuclear sites are located, and its concerns have intensified in the last two weeks as the situation has deteriorated.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...s-attacked.html

[Tamerlane]

It is true that the government attacked the Taliban under American pressure. What do they expect in return but more fighting, death and destruction? Pakistani killing Pakistani. Muslim slaughtering Muslim, while the Christians, Jews and Hindus occupy a Muslim country, Afghanistan, and laugh.

If the Pakistani rulers are allowing the Americans to make policy for Pakistan then they should just hand over NWFP and Baluchistan to the American military.

I bet that's what the Americans are waiting for.

[thouse]

Yes and the Taliban where sitting quietly playing with each others beards not engaged in any provocative acts. Its everybody elses fault except the poor mullahs. They are always the victims of one conspiracy or another.

[waz]

The pressure was from the people of Pakistan, not America!

These harami militants sabotaged the peace agreement WAY BEFORE any offensive was launched. Have people suddenly got amnesia or do they remember these devils overrunning buner, Dir etc?

Let it collapse, kill them all and behead them in public. We have seen how treacherous these savages are, EVEN AFTER they swore oaths on the Quran to honour the agreement. Shall I tell you why they didn't honour it? Because they believe the Pakistani army, government and a good deal of the people are KAFFIRS, so hence tactically they don't have to abide by it.

[Tamerlane]

The fundamental problem is the American occupation of Afghanistan. As long as that continues the "Taliban" problem in Pakistan will never end. So how long will Pakistanis keep killing each other?

The simple fact is that the vast majority of Pakistanis don't approve of the Pakistani rulers' surrender to American diktat and aggression. And some of them, especially those who's had friends and relatives killed, will take up arms against the state.

This is an endless fight. One that the Pakistani security will probably never win as long as they're seen to be fighting on behalf of the biggest enemy of Pakistan and Muslims - America.

There's no way out of this but to treat the cancer, not the symptoms.

[clutch]

The fundamental problem is the American occupation of Afghanistan. As long as that continues the "Taliban" problem in Pakistan will never end. So how long will Pakistanis keep killing each other?

The simple fact is that the vast majority of Pakistanis don't approve of the Pakistani rulers' surrender to American diktat and aggression. And some of them, especially those who's had friends and relatives killed, will take up arms against the state.

This is an endless fight. One that the Pakistani security will probably never win as long as they're seen to be fighting on behalf of the biggest enemy of Pakistan and Muslims - America.

There's no way out of this but to treat the cancer, not the symptoms.

I agree... Pakistan needs to confront the Taliban threat from both fronts... Otherwise, all other efforts will be futile. Kill one Talib here, another two pop up to replace him. Its a loosing battle.

Pakistan needs to face its issues head on.

Unfortunately, due to our shot sightedness, we have trapped ourselves between a rock & a hard place.

Like Zaid Hamid says, (I paraphrase): We need to break away from our American Allied Foreign Policy & break the Backs of these Talibans (simultaneously)....

------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. Options in Pakistan Limited
Nation Rife With Security Issues, Infighting, Anti-American Sentiment
By Karen DeYoung
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, May 4, 2009




As Taliban forces edged to within 60 miles of Islamabad late last month, the Obama administration urgently asked for new intelligence assessments of whether Pakistan's government would survive. In briefings last week, senior officials said, President Obama and his National Security Council were told that neither a Taliban takeover nor a military coup was imminent and that the Pakistani nuclear arsenal was safe.

Beyond the immediate future, however, the intelligence was far from reassuring. Security was deteriorating rapidly, particularly in the mountains along the Afghan border that harbor al-Qaeda and the Taliban, intelligence chiefs reported, and there were signs that those groups were working with indigenous extremists in Pakistan's populous Punjabi heartland.

The Pakistani government was mired in political bickering. The army, still fixated on its historical adversary India, remained ill-equipped and unwilling to throw its full weight into the counterinsurgency fight.

But despite the threat the intelligence conveyed, Obama has only limited options for dealing with it. Anti-American feeling in Pakistan is high, and a U.S. combat presence is prohibited. The United States is fighting Pakistan-based extremists by proxy, through an army over which it has little control, in alliance with a government in which it has little confidence.

The tools most readily at hand are money, weapons, and a mentoring relationship with Pakistan's government and military that alternates between earnest advice and anxious criticism. As criticism has dominated in recent weeks -- along with reports that the administration is wooing Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari's principal political opponent, former prime minister Nawaz Sharif -- the partnership has grown strained.

"What are the Americans trying to do, micromanage our politics?" a senior Pakistani official said testily. "This is not South Vietnam."

As Zardari arrives this week for his first official visit with Obama -- part of a tripartite summit with Afghan President Hamid Karzai -- the administration has asked Congress to quickly approve hundreds of millions of dollars in emergency military aid for Pakistan. That money, and billions more over the next several years, is to come with new authority for the Defense Department to decide what to spend it on.

Obama has also backed a five-year $7.5 billion economic assistance package and is resisting congressional efforts to impose strict conditions on any aid to Pakistan. Last month, the administration orchestrated an international donors' conference in Tokyo that netted $5.5 billion in pledges for Pakistan.

When he sits down with Zardari on Wednesday at the White House, Obama will urge him to put more effort into building domestic support by meeting critical public needs and to resolve his differences with Sharif and others so that he can concentrate on governing, according to officials who discussed sensitive and fluid Pakistan issues on the condition of anonymity.

Of particular concern are hundreds of thousands of Pakistanis who have been displaced by fighting in the North-West Frontier Province, U.S. officials said.

Security proposals up for discussion with Zardari and other members of his high-level delegation include counterinsurgency training for Pakistani army troops at U.S. bases in the Persian Gulf, Afghanistan, the United States or elsewhere. The administration wants to expand a small, in-country training force -- now limited to about 70 Americans -- that is working with the Frontier Corps, the local, poorly armed force in the border regions.

As 17,000 additional U.S. troops deploying to southern Afghanistan this spring and summer begin to push Taliban fighters toward the Pakistan border, there are hopes the extremists can be trapped in "hammer and anvil" operations with Pakistani forces in the southern province of Baluchistan. Right now, however, Pakistan fields only one army brigade and about 40,000 minimally trained and equipped Frontier Corps members in the vast region, according to U.S. officials.

In deference to Pakistani objections, the administration has not initiated covert ground attacks, approved by the Bush administration last year, in mountain villages farther to the north, in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, where it believes high-value al-Qaeda figures are located. But Obama authorized stepped-up attacks on the area by missiles launched from unmanned drone aircraft.

Although the missile attacks are privately approved by the Pakistani government, despite its public denunciations, they are highly unpopular among the public. As Zardari's domestic problems have grown, the Obama administration last month cut the frequency of the attacks. Some senior U.S. officials think they have reached the point of diminishing returns and the administration is debating the rate at which they should continue.

Always simmering, administration concern about Pakistani governance rose sharply last month when the Parliament approved an agreement between regional authorities and the Taliban to authorize sharia, or Islamic law, in the Swat Valley, located about 100 miles northwest of Islamabad. Rather than lay down their arms in exchange, Taliban forces began moving eastward. By the third week in April, they had established a presence in Buner district, 60 miles from the capital, with no apparent government resistance.

The day after the Buner reports surfaced, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton infuriated the Pakistani government by telling Congress it was "abdicating to the Taliban and to the extremists" and that the situation posed a "mortal threat" to the world.

"Absolutely, they're getting irritated," a senior U.S. official said of the Pakistanis. Clinton, he said, "knows she went too far" in her unscripted testimony. "But on the other hand," he said, "it was that kind of statement that helped wake up the Pakistanis."

A Pakistani military offensive in the Buner region was underway Tuesday, even as Obama's national security team met at the White House, and continued through the weekend. Administration officials said they were watching to see whether the military followed through or would simply stop without finishing the job, as it has in the past.

Meanwhile, Pakistan's government says it is in no mood for criticism or conditions on aid. After "billions of dollars were poured into Pakistan under the dictatorship" of Gen. Pervez Musharraf by the Bush administration, Pakistani ambassador to Washington Husain Haqqani said yesterday, the Obama administration has produced little but promises and disapproval of the democratically elected government.

"It is unfair to blame the civilian leadership that is bravely mobilizing the nation against terrorism when it is our American partners who have also slowed us down in the war effort by slowing down the flow of assistance," Haqqani said. "We trust that President Obama's emphasis on Pakistan will also translate promises into deliverables."

"You can't spend more in Iraq and Afghanistan," he said, "and then wonder why the effort in Pakistan is lagging behind."





http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...0302212_pf.html

[Xyraxel]

Like Zaid Hamid says, (I paraphrase): We need to break away from our American Allied Foreign Policy & break the Backs of these Talibans (simultaneously)....

Did Zaid Hamid give a plan ? how will we survive by alienting ourselves from USA ? even our so called Muslim countries (Saudi Arabia, UAE etc) refused to support us financially unless we accepted the demands of IMF.
Do you think IMF will give us funds if we stop supporting USA ?

[clutch]

Did Zaid Hamid give a plan ? how will we survive by alienting ourselves from USA ? even our so called Muslim countries (Saudi Arabia, UAE etc) refused to support us financially unless we accepted the demands of IMF.
Do you think IMF will give us funds if we stop supporting USA ?

Yankie doodle aintcha suga' daddy!

Grow a pair! (Not you in specific, I mean Pakistani foreign policy) :)

Just FYI... Let me, let u in on a little secret... Most Westerners only respect you if you stand up for what you believe in. If you submit to their every whim they will just run you over. I was born here + my family has been here since the early sixties.... To get respect here you have to be able to stand up for what you believe (in a civilized manner of course).

I am not saying Pakistan should have an Anti-American foreign policy.... That's a whole different issue. & dont buy into that whole scenario that unless we are sucking off American teets we would starve.

Their ultimate goal is for us to self destruct. A nuclear Pakistan is unacceptable to them.

[visioninthedark]

It is true that the government attacked the Taliban under American pressure. What do they expect in return but more fighting, death and destruction? Pakistani killing Pakistani. Muslim slaughtering Muslim, while the Christians, Jews and Hindus occupy a Muslim country, Afghanistan, and laugh.

If the Pakistani rulers are allowing the Americans to make policy for Pakistan then they should just hand over NWFP and Baluchistan to the American military.

I bet that's what the Americans are waiting for.

WRONG!!!

Pakistani killing MURDERERS .... killing CRIMINALS!!!

NO WHERE IN ISLAM DOES IT SAY IF A MURDERER OR CRIMINAL IS MUSLIM THEN WE SHOULD NOT GIVE HIM JUSTICE!!!

KILL ALL THESE ANIMAL MURDERERS .... EACH ONE AND EVERY SINGLE CRIMINAL WHO EVEN SUPPORTS THEM WITH WORDS!!

[Xyraxel]

Yankie doodle aintcha suga' daddy!

Grow a pair! (Not you in specific, I mean Pakistani foreign policy) :)

Just FYI... Let me, let u in on a little secret... Most Westerners only respect you if you stand up for what you believe in. If you submit to their every whim they will just run you over. I was born here + my family has been here since the early sixties.... To get respect here you have to be able to stand up for what you believe (in a civilized manner of course).

I am not saying Pakistan should have an Anti-American foreign policy.... That's a whole different issue. & dont buy into that whole scenario that unless we are sucking off American teets we would starve.

Their ultimate goal is for us to self destruct. A nuclear Pakistan is unacceptable to them.

So Zaid Hamid didnt give a plan ?

[visioninthedark]

So Zaid Hamid didnt give a plan ?

Who give a FLYINF F*&K what Ziad Hamid says ... ????

ALL WE NEED TO DO IS HUNT DOWN EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THESE SICK MURDERING CRIMINALS .... full stop.

[Xyraxel]

Who give a FLYINF F*&K what Ziad Hamid says ... ????

ALL WE NEED TO DO IS HUNT DOWN EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THESE SICK MURDERING CRIMINALS .... full stop.

I agree with you there :D

[Xyraxel]

Just FYI... Let me, let u in on a little secret... Most Westerners only respect you if you stand up for what you believe in. If you submit to their every whim they will just run you over. I was born here + my family has been here since the early sixties.... To get respect here you have to be able to stand up for what you believe (in a civilized manner of course).

Just FYI I really dont care if some westerner respects me or not , becaue I have the respect of my Pakistan My countrymen my city my Lahore the roads iv walked on for 24 years the roads and air that has made me what I am today. I really dont care for a westerners respect, if you do well thats something you need not me cuz I already have the respect of over 160 Million Pakistani's and that is more than enough for me.

[clutch]

WRONG!!!

Pakistani killing MURDERERS .... killing CRIMINALS!!!

NO WHERE IN ISLAM DOES IT SAY IF A MURDERER OR CRIMINAL IS MUSLIM THEN WE SHOULD NOT GIVE HIM JUSTICE!!!

KILL ALL THESE ANIMAL MURDERERS .... EACH ONE AND EVERY SINGLE CRIMINAL WHO EVEN SUPPORTS THEM WITH WORDS!!

True... I agree... But then what?

Fine... lets assume we kill 1000 Taliban & unfortunately, in the process kill 500 innocent civilians (collateral damage).

How do we prevent another insurrection from the newly disgruntled populace?

It is easy to open the Pandora's box of violence. It is much harder to contain what comes out of it.

With all the blood letting, who will gain to benefit the most? Hint: Look (south) East.

I agree... these Talibs need to be dealt with military action (because force is the one thing they seem to understand; i.e all the broken treaties)

But I say we go for the heads of the snake, Get their leaders (Baitullah, Fazullah etc) & then their handlers; RAW/CIA etc.

A scorched earth policy will in the end only leave behind a burn out Pakistan.

Temperance NOT Emotion...

[visioninthedark]

True... I agree... But then what?

Fine... lets assume we kill 1000 Taliban & unfortunately, in the process kill 500 innocent civilians (collateral damage).

How do we prevent another insurrection from the newly disgruntled populace?

It is easy to open the Pandora's box of violence. It is much harder to contain what comes out of it.

With all the blood letting, who will gain to benefit the most? Hint: Look (south) East.

I agree... these Talibs need to be dealt with military action (because force is the one thing they seem to understand; i.e all the broken treaties)

But I say we go for the heads of the snake, Get their leaders (Baitullah, Fazullah etc) & then their handlers; RAW/CIA etc.

A scorched earth policy will in the end only leave behind a burn out Pakistan.

Temperance NOT Emotion...

TERRORISE THE CRIMINALS >>> BEHEAD THEM ... BURN THEM ... KILL THEM .... DO UNTO THEM WHAT THEY DO TO OTHERS ....

them we will see them whimper like the cowardly dogs they are ...

Gengis Khan one said .... "REGRET is the fruit of PITY"

KILL THEM ... and whoever rises up in support KILL THEM AS WELL ....

the only way forward .... and bro .... let people scream as much as they want .... the Pak Army is going to do JUST THIS .... you will see it soon ... (IMG:style_emoticons/PDFEmotionIconsv10/smile.gif)

[Sardar]

1. Link does not work.

2. Dont trust jewish telegraph.

3. Khawarij and munafiqs on both sides trying hard to destroy the peace deal, is nothing new.

4. Success of peace deal is against American-Israeli interests.

5. Luckily for Pakistan, the Army (who arranged the peace deal) knows what it is doing, and does not listen to cut and paste kids on a forum advocating mass-genocide against our own citizens.

[clutch]

Just FYI I really dont care if some westerner respects me or not , becaue I have the respect of my Pakistan My countrymen my city my Lahore the roads iv walked on for 24 years the roads and air that has made me what I am today. I really dont care for a westerners respect, if you do well thats something you need not me cuz I already have the respect of over 160 Million Pakistani's and that is more than enough for me.

Apparently you do over here:

Do you think IMF will give us funds if we stop supporting USA ?

What I meant is that, Pakistan should not do what is the best interest of The West, but rather what is in the best Interest in Pakistan.

[Xyraxel]

True... I agree... But then what?

Fine... lets assume we kill 1000 Taliban & unfortunately, in the process kill 500 innocent civilians (collateral damage).

How do we prevent another insurrection from the newly disgruntled populace?

It is easy to open the Pandora's box of violence. It is much harder to contain what comes out of it.

With all the blood letting, who will gain to benefit the most? Hint: Look (south) East.

I agree... these Talibs need to be dealt with military action (because force is the one thing they seem to understand; i.e all the broken treaties)

But I say we go for the heads of the snake, Get their leaders (Baitullah, Fazullah etc) & then their handlers; RAW/CIA etc.

A scorched earth policy will in the end only leave behind a burn out Pakistan.

Temperance NOT Emotion...

Howcome the West wasnt able to create such chaos in Iran or iraq or north korea ???? The west can only do such stuff if they find ppl in the country willing to do such stuff, if we want to be free we should focus on education and elimination of poverty, as long as we have a high illiteracy rate we will have such problems, cuz every country has enemies, we will always have enemies if we somehow get rid of America , another enemy will turn up and use the same illiterate ppl against us, so I really wish our politicians and ppl like Zaid Hamid emphasise on education rather than going against a super power whose aid we depend upon

[clutch]

TERRORISE THE CRIMINALS >>> BEHEAD THEM ... BURN THEM ... KILL THEM .... DO UNTO THEM WHAT THEY DO TO OTHERS ....

them we will see them whimper like the cowardly dogs they are ...

Gengis Khan one said .... "REGRET is the fruit of PITY"

KILL THEM ... and whoever rises up in support KILL THEM AS WELL ....

the only way forward .... and bro .... let people scream as much as they want .... the Pak Army is going to do JUST THIS .... you will see it soon ... (IMG:style_emoticons/PDFEmotionIconsv10/smile.gif)

But Genghis Khan wasn't waging a war on his own home turf.

"KILL THEM" all is not a rational solution to the problem.

The problem is a lot more complex than that. Decades of ignorant (jehaliat false) Islam being preached, corruption, poor-law & order, etc.

You have to win over the minds & hearts of the people of that region. Then go ahead & cut the heads of the leaders of these Talibs (Fithna).

[clutch]

Howcome the West wasnt able to create such chaos in Iran or iraq or north korea ???? The west can only do such stuff if they find ppl in the country willing to do such stuff, if we want to be free we should focus on education and elimination of poverty, as long as we have a high illiteracy rate we will have such problems, cuz every country has enemies, we will always have enemies if we somehow get rid of America , another enemy will turn up and use the same illiterate ppl against us, so I really wish our politicians and ppl like Zaid Hamid emphasise on education rather than going against a super power whose aid we depend upon

Yes... education goes hand in hand with proper Islam.

But when you have wolves howling at your gates you cant really fight them off with a book?

Education leads to a civil society ----> leads to better understanding of Islam ----> leads to political stability ---> leads to economical growth ----> leads to modernity (NOT to be confused with Westernism) ----> leads you to build better Guns to fight off the wolves at your doorsteps.

BUT... when the urgency of the situation leaves you no choice (to start educating the masses) you have to stand up and fight off the threat with the resources at hand, not what you wish you had.

We should have bigger kahoonas!

[visioninthedark]

But Genghis Khan wasn't waging a war on his own home turf.

"KILL THEM" all is not a rational solution to the problem.

The problem is a lot more complex than that. Decades of ignorant (jehaliat false) Islam being preached, corruption, poor-law & order, etc.

You have to win over the minds & hearts of the people of that region. Then go ahead & cut the heads of the leaders of these Talibs (Fithna).

my dear bro .... before Gengis Khan became the Gengis Khan that we and the world knows .... he fought his own and purified his people of criminals and cowards .... and that is when he said what I quoted ....

for foreigners he never had PITY .... so no question arises for that quote

[Xyraxel]

But when you have wolves howling at your gates you cant really fight them off with a book?

Education leads to a civil society ----> leads to better understanding of Islam ----> leads to political stability ---> leads to economical growth ----> leads to modernity (NOT to be confused with Westernism) ----> leads you to build better Guns to fight off the wolves at your doorsteps.

BUT... when the urgency of the situation leaves you no choice (to start educating the masses) you have to stand up and fight off the threat with the resources at hand, not what you wish you had.

If a country is well literate u dont need books to fight of countries like USA .

You can deter countries by Economic power , Miliatary power or by Brain power, and Pakistan lacks all of these right now. and as far as I know we cant fight USA off by our current military power, or by having an aggressive foreign policy like Iran, cuz we are not economically as strong as iran, the world needs irans gas and oil.

[Xyraxel]

my dear bro .... before Gengis Khan became the Gengis Khan that we and the world knows .... he fought his own and purified his people of criminals and cowards .... and that is when he said what I quoted ....

for foreigners he never had PITY .... so no question arises for that quote

Yes I agree with you here, Pakistan needs one brutal leader who loves the country and has 100% support of the nation. Thats when we will be successfull, kill each and every currupt / criminal . I had such hopes from Musharraf but he ended being with the chaudhary brothers.

China had Mao, Russia had Stalin, we also need such a leader but alas its the literacy rate, ppl will always be fooled .

[Xyraxel]

Just FYI I really dont care if some westerner respects me or not , becaue I have the respect of my Pakistan My countrymen my city my Lahore the roads iv walked on for 24 years the roads and air that has made me what I am today. I really dont care for a westerners respect, if you do well thats something you need not me cuz I already have the respect of over 160 Million Pakistani's and that is more than enough for me.

Apparently you do over here:

Do you think IMF will give us funds if we stop supporting USA ?

IMF does not mean westerners its just one entity controlled by a handful of jews. plus just because we accept the demands of IMF doesnt mean we respect, it just means we have no choice.

I took a loan from hsbc to partially fund my studies at an interest rate of 10.5% it doesnt mean I respect HSBC I just didnt have any other choice.

[demonslayer]

LOL. Cmon guys this was a drama being staged by the army in cohoots with ther govt, although the govt was a reluctant partenr in this. The army pressurized the govt to do this drama of giving Swat to the militants to scare the s h i t out of USA. The army knew the idiot mullahs will never be able to contain themselves with false belief that they have begun to realize their dreams of conquering Pakistan. Now the Americans who probably s h i t t e d in thier pants when this drama was being played hurriedly decided to give whatever aid Pakistan needed. Infact, now when Zardari is coming to USA the US congress is going to announce to give US 15 billion dollars in10 years to Pakistan. Kiyani was a smart guy. Now comes the hard part to get rid of the taliban from Swat.

[Tamerlane]

Genghis Khan may have killed criminals and cowards in his own country but in Pakistan criminals and cowards have full military protection. We only kill those who would stand up against foreign invaders. Criminals are actually walking in the corridors of power and cowards are a dime a dozen.

Give me a break people. What we're doing in Pakistan is neither bravery, nor wisdom. The rulers can't stand up to foreign enemies so they serve the interests of the enemy and kill those citizens of Pakistan who protest.

I thought bravery was to kill the foreign enemies without mercy, not your own civilians.

As far as Iraq is concerned the Americans deliberately caused a civil war there and between that and the murderous American occupation a couple of million people have died, millions are refugees and the country was totally destroyed.

What the Americans have planned for Pakistan is far worse. A Yugoslavia style civil war and breakup and millions dead and starving.

[Xyraxel]

What I meant is that, Pakistan should not do what is the best interest of The West, but rather what is in the best Interest in Pakistan.

Let me tell you one thing, well I could be wrong but , its my belief Pakistans foreign policy and current policy regarding taliban and Kashmir is controlled by the Pak Army, and its in the best interest of Pak Army to accept the demands of USA cuz we are not strong enough, if you think our foreign policy is controlled by our currupt leaders dont you think India could bribe Zardari and Sharif and ask them to shutup and kneel down to india ???

Its our great army that controls our foreign policy, and our army can ANNIHILATE india. But we really cant do that to USA thats why we agree to the terms of USA.

Yes its the best interest of Pakistan to do what is best for itself. But since we are in such a dire stuation we have to stay inbetween. If we had a better choice im sure Pak Fauj will make such a decission.

[Xyraxel]

LOL. Cmon guys this was a drama being staged by the army in cohoots with ther govt, although the govt was a reluctant partenr in this. The army pressurized the govt to do this drama of giving Swat to the militants to scare the s h i t out of USA. The army knew the idiot mullahs will never be able to contain themselves with false belief that they have begun to realize their dreams of conquering Pakistan. Now the Americans who probably s h i t t e d in thier pants when this drama was being played hurriedly decided to give whatever aid Pakistan needed. Infact, now when Zardari is coming to USA the US congress is going to announce to give US 15 billion dollars in10 years to Pakistan. Kiyani was a smart guy. Now comes the hard part to get rid of the taliban from Swat.

That is why I LOVE PAK FAUJ

[Xyraxel]

What the Americans have planned for Pakistan is far worse. A Yugoslavia style civil war and breakup and millions dead and starving.

Its not just america every country in the world wishes everyone would starve to death so that it could benefit from the resources of Earth.

Im not sure if america has any plans against Pakistan similar to Yugoslavia, but let me tell you one thing Pakistan is not Yugoslavia cuz Pakistan does not have such a religious divide as yugoslavia.

[clutch]

In a nutshell what I am trying to say is that: "An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind"

A far sighted solution will not solely rely on a military (forceful) solution.

Different tactics work with different people.

Just because a strong-man was able to subdue the Iraqi nation (or any other totalitarian system) into submission; does not mean that formula will work

with these people as well. The terrain, culture, history, and different time-line has to be taken into account. With modern weapons in hand, and a

terrain suitable for a gorilla campaign, these people will not be easily restrained. Their history points towards a strong rejection of external interference

and an entrenched sense of xenophobia. This fact has to be taken into account!

A wiser solution will involve the locals combating the Taliban threat (on their terms) with the Pak Military providing the tactical support. This will also

give the Pak Military (covert missions) the wiggle room to target the heads of these organisations and cut off their financial/tactical support from across

(both Afghan & Indian) borders.

A "KILL 'EM ALL" approach may provide some short term relieve from the insurgency (terrorism), but the risks of a resurgent (blow-back)

backlash will pail in comparison with anything we have seen so far.... endangering the very existence of the state.

That is the cleaver trap set up for us (by Pakistan's mortal enemies)...

Pakistan is right now in quick-sand... the instinctive reaction will be to kick harder.... BUT the solution is NOT to kick harder; but rather to find a rope to

pull ourselves out!

Therefore, do not let your emotions (instincts) get the better of you. Learn to be patient... emotional outburst may win you some cookie points, but not

the argument.

Just my 2 cents... But what do I know... Im just some shmuk behind a keyboard..

Peace-Out :)

[Xyraxel]

Their history points towards a strong rejection of external interference
and an entrenched sense of xenophobia. This fact has to be taken into account!

The TTP supported by India are an external influence, so thats why our military should eradicate them and install an external influence which is favorable towards Pakistan not India or USA.

I could be wrong, but then if you look at history you will learn one thing and that is, if you are determined and have a good plan you will succeed, and there is always a first time :D.

[clutch]

The TTP supported by India are an external influence, so thats why our military should eradicate them and install an external influence which is favorable towards Pakistan not India or USA.

I could be wrong, but then if you look at history you will learn one thing and that is, if you are determined and have a good plan you will succeed.

Yes! Bingo! -

But the fallacy of your argument lies here:

...and install an external influence which is favorable towards Pakistan...

By definition, these people are xenophobic, i.e they will reject any external pressure. We can not impose an "external" influence upon them that is

pro-Pakistan. That change has to come from within, i.e a political solution. In the current scenario, they do NOT realize that these Talibs are actually

in cahoots with Indian interests. The Talib foot-soldier is just a brainwashed ticking-time-bomb unaware of whom their puppet masters really are; yet

their leaders like Baitullah/Faizullah etc are in bed with the enemies of Pakistan/Islam. They have made the deal with the devil (ends justify the

means); these are the people that need to be eliminated. Let the lacal population take care of the Talib thugs; Pathan Justice!

[rungroot]

Here's the game that's being played; the yankees are trying to corner our military in a catch22 situation where its damn if you do and damn if you don't. Notice how the yankee zionist media has been praising Gen. Kiyani and putting him above obama. Even obama said that he has more "faith" in Gen. Kiyani. So if we implement the NAR then the yankees cry that "OH MY GOD THE TALIBAN ARE COMING THE TALIBAN ARE COMING...THE NUKES OH WHAT ABOUT THE NUKES" while the fundos and the talis are happy going around beheading innocent civilians. Now if the army does action against the talis then the yankees will insinuate a general preception that Gen.Kiyani is a yankee stooge and the talis and the fundos will whine about "OH HOW THE FOLLOWERS OF ALLAH ARE BEING KILLED". The BEST way to defeat this move (and I believe that Gen. Kiyani IS doing this) is to enforce the NAR properly AND kick tali ass!!!

[Xyraxel]

Yes! Bingo! -

But the fallacy of your argument lies here:



By definition, these people are xenophobic, i.e they will reject any external pressure. We can not impose an "external" influence upon them that is

pro-Pakistan. That change has to come from within, i.e a political solution. In the current scenario, they do NOT realize that these Talibs are actually

in cahoots with Indian interests. The Talib foot-soldier is just a brainwashed ticking-time-bomb unaware of whom their puppet masters really are; yet

their leaders like Baitullah/Faizullah etc are in bed with the enemies of Pakistan/Islam. They have made the deal with the devil (ends justify the

means); these are the people that need to be eliminated. Let the lacal population take care of the Talib thugs; Pathan Justice!

Once someone is brainwashed and indirectly following orders of India and willing to die for Baitullah another indian puppet. What other choice does our army have other than kill them cuz we sure cant heal them cuz they are willing to die for india, they are terminally ill.

So if India can do can such a thing , why cant our army ??? after all these TTP ppl did come and kill the influencial ppl of swat and control rest of the influencial ppl of swat through fear hence got full control of SWAT.

So why cant our army do this ?? I have full trust in our army and im sure they will accomplish this. They will get rid of the twats in swat and replace them with a person who is pro Pakistan not pro India.

btw its 3:11am need to sleep, need to teach kids at 9am lol.

[PakShaheen]

To all war aficionados like Mr. Xyraxel!

CONTERINSURGENCY (COIN) is not a military operation ALONE.

It always a politico-military and socio-political operation. What about political and social piller of counterinsurgency. Do Pakistan Army or government has any plan about that or do you have any plan for that?

[Xyraxel]

Here's the game that's being played; the yankees are trying to corner our military in a catch22 situation where its damn if you do and damn if you don't. Notice how the yankee zionist media has been praising Gen. Kiyani and putting him above obama. Even obama said that he has more "faith" in Gen. Kiyani. So if we implement the NAR then the yankees cry that "OH MY GOD THE TALIBAN ARE COMING THE TALIBAN ARE COMING...THE NUKES OH WHAT ABOUT THE NUKES" while the fundos and the talis are happy going around beheading innocent civilians. Now if the army does action against the talis then the yankees will insinuate a general preception that Gen.Kiyani is a yankee stooge and the talis and the fundos will whine about "OH HOW THE FOLLOWERS OF ALLAH ARE BEING KILLED". The BEST way to defeat this move (and I believe that Gen. Kiyani IS doing this) is to enforce the NAR properly AND kick tali ass!!!

I agree with u here

[clutch]

Once someone is brainwashed and indirectly following orders of India and willing to die for Baitullah another indian puppet. What other choice does our army have other than kill them cuz we sure cant heal them cuz they are willing to die for india, they are terminally ill.

So if India can do can such a thing , why cant our army ??? after all these TTP ppl did come and kill the influencial ppl of swat and control rest of the influencial ppl of swat through fear hence got full control of SWAT.

So why cant our army do this ?? I have full trust in our army and im sure they will accomplish this. They will get rid of the twats in swat and replace them with a person who is pro Pakistan not pro India.

btw its 3:11am need to sleep, need to teach kids at 9am lol.

You are a teacher?... OMG, I shudder at that thought!

LOL... Just kidding... I will msg you with some intriguing & riveting reading material one day... Shubbah-Khair!

Pakistan First! -

[Xyraxel]

To all war aficionados like Mr. Xyraxel!

CONTERINSURGENCY (COIN) is not a military operation ALONE.

It always a politico-military and socio-political operation. What about political and social piller of counterinsurgency. Do Pakistan Army or government has any plan about that or do you have any plan for that?

well like I said, if India can put ppl like TTP in control of swat by exerting its external influence whats wrong if Pak army does it ???

Remember early 90's when Pak Fauj liberated Karachi by brute force , or even b4 when Pak fauj got rid of the Baluchistan rebels, and compared to that swat is a much smaller area.

here's the thing if there is a rebellion based on internal mutual understanding then yes u need socio-political solutions, but if the rebelion is based on an external influence well you should either use brute force on that are or brute force on that external influence. Can Pakistan use brute force on America ???? or india which will lead to brute for against usa ???
Even the bhindians were able to use brute force against the sikhs and were successful
Like I said we will always have enemies, and as long as we dont pay attention on education we will stay in this loop. , cuz no matter what our enemies will never end, we need to be stronger tham them, thats the only solution.

[Xyraxel]

You are a teacher?... OMG, I shudder at that thought!

LOL... Just kidding... I will msg you with some intriguing & riveting reading material one day... Shubbah-Khair!

Pakistan First! -

well not a teacher , but im a research student at University Of Bath, and part of being a PHD student, means being a tutor grrrrrrrrrr, and helping out undergrads.

[Xyraxel]

Pakistan First! -

I agree with you there, btw no matter how different our opinion's are, in the end we all come here cuz we Love Pakistan and wish the best for it .