232 replies to this topic

[Salim]

Darwaish: I never knew but it seems that a person can have Pakistani and American dual nationality, that was allowed on 10th December 2002. Here is the information from American immigration site: From the information, it is also clear that a Pakistani could not have kept dual nationality (American plus Pakistani) before 10 December, 2002, as that was allowed from 10 December 2002.

http://www.us-immigration.com/information/...enship/pak.html
Allowed as of December 10th, 2002

US nationals of Pakistani origin can now have dual nationality. In addition to their US passports, they can now also keep their Pakistani passports. In order to apply for their Pakistani passports they would have to submit their original US passport, which should have "Pakistan" as the country of origin, and in addition, one original Pakistani ID, like an original current or expired National Identity card OR an expired Pakistani passport. They would also have to fill all the required forms necessary for the renewal of passports.

Now the question arises that if Mrs Aafia Siddiqui did took dual nationality opportunity or not, and that if she was travelling to Pakistan on Pakistani passport or American passport when she was arrested and handed over to American official. I believe that at that time she was travelling on American passport, and if that is the case than we cannot blame Pakistan government for her problems.

Taking nationality of a country is not selective package but complete package. We have to understand that once we take nationality of a country, along with all facilities and opportunities that country gives to us, they also demand commitment and loyalty, so we cannot expect something without fulfilling the other. If country believes that we lack that commitment and loyalty, then they can take steps to punish us too. Unfortunately, immigrants quite often get bad deals when they are judged for their commitment and loyalty, so we have to be careful when taking nationality of a country that may have opposite ideology to ours, as mistrust can lead a person to undue harm. I think, Mrs Aafia Siddiqui is victim of same problem ... country she adopted mistrust her (rightly or wrongly).

[Tropicana]

Why are people side-tracking this issue?

I don't understand.

Why is it being taken along the lines of "what has NS done?" Or "Zardari would do the same?" Or "terrible things happen in difficult times" (isn't that the biggest let-out clause ever?). I don't understand.

As I predicted earely in this thread, the moment you bring in leaders, it becomes a sling match of what Zardari would have done etc etc. Is the situation so screwed up that for every supposed wrong action by any leader, we have to bring in a worse example and compare ? Are NS/10 % the benchmark of good government in Pakistan ?

[pakistanzindabaad]

Salim bhayi...

Satyaa geye hain??

Pehley to unn haraam zadon ko latkana chahye who took Afia Siddiqui from Pakistani soil and transferred her and her children to US control...

[must7]

She wouldn't be able to tell one end of the gun from the other let alone be abe to fire it. The Kalashinov would be too heavy for her to lift as she is a petit woman. Would any woman sacrifice three children? I doubt it . We have heard plenty of cra*p from the Americans but this must surely beat every thing. This is equivalent to Abu Ghraib and an attack on our muslim values and an insult to all Pakistanis and must be avenged. Perpetrators must be brought to justice.

http://www.aztlan.net/women_martyrs.htm

Don't say that we don't have women terrorists ..

Of course I am not saying if Dr. Afia was involved or not involved, but do not assume without any knowledge of the issue, it is wrong.

[Salim]

Salim bhayi...

Satyaa geye hain??

Pehley to unn haraam zadon ko latkana chahye who took Afia Siddiqui from Pakistani soil and transferred her and her children to US control...

Brother, I do not think that your post needs comment, as your choice of words is very illuminating ... deserve medal for modesty and enlightenment.

[pakistanzindabaad]

Someone who provides excuses for happened to this lady in any form; deserves a lot more... You should be thankful for my restraint...

[Wohi]

     
What lame agenda do you have against Pak Fauj?? If you don't like Pak Fauj then f*ck off and don't come on this forum. Musharraf is a civilian president and Pakistan is being run by civilian elected government. Why do you have to drag Pak fauj in this?

And if she indeed was a terrorist or a supporter then there must be some evidence against here and in that case I don't give a crap as to what happens to her.

Lets not have juvenile discourse like this over here kid and discuss the issues

[Salim]

Someone who provides excuses for happened to this lady in any form; deserves a lot more... You should be thankful for my restraint...

I know you are moderator who has pathetic mentality of a tyrant that dance on the tune of some politicians (without naming) and their party-policies. You have made this forum not Pakistanidefencefroum, but Pakistanbashingforum, Nawazpropagandaforum, Musharrafhateforum and your personal colony. Now go ban me, dance on your so-called pathetic victory, and possibly delete whatever I wrote, as that is only thing you can do in this little illusive kingdom of yours that you think you have conquered over the years.

[BaburMissile]

I know you are moderator who has pathetic mentality of a tyrant that dance on the tune of some politicians (without naming) and their party-policies. You have made this forum not Pakistanidefencefroum, but Pakistanbashingforum and your personal colony. Now go ban me, dance on your so-called pathetic victory, and possibly delete whatever I wrote, as that is only thing you can do in this little illusive kingdom of yours that you think you have conquered over the years.

Please don't tell me that you aren't concerned by whatever happened to Dr. Afia?

[Salim]

Please don't tell me that you aren't concerned by whatever happened to the Dr. Afia?

Brother, off course I am concerned but I also have to see why these things happened looking at facts. If we do not discuss and do not talk about than we won’t know and would keep crying on such events. Today it was Aafia and tomorrow it would be someone else. Blaming one or another could not take a person anywhere, as unless we would not talk and know all view points, we would not know. But there are some people who have tiny brains and go berserk if they hear things that they do not like, judging everything according to their pathetic so-called political agendas or mental-set.

[complicated]

a person from Dubai called in "live with Talat" talk show he said people from other nationalities now tease us that you people can sell your daughters for money
shameful isn't it or still its ok to support

[must7]

a person from Dubai called in "live with Talat" talk show he said people from other nationalities now tease us that you people can sell your daughters for money
shameful isn't it or still its ok to support

Complicated .. the world says a lot of things to us .. is them claiming it gonna make us the same !

The world knows that we are not having child prostitutes like present in so many countries .. we don't sell our kids in such a manner that 10 go 12 year old girls & guys are roaming red light areas for  acquiring money .. Please don't use words which are self inflicting ...

http://www.thenews.c...es.asp?id=51388

Pakistan seeking from US consular access for Dr Afia: FO
  Updated at: 1730 PST, Thursday, August 07, 2008  
   ISLAMABAD: Pakistan is seeking from United States consular access and medical assistance for Dr Afia Siddiqui, and is committed to bring back all Pakistanis detained in other countries.

"The government is committed to bring back all Pakistani detainees including Dr Afia Siddiqui," Foreign Office spokesman, Muhammad Sadiq told weekly media briefing at Foreign Office here.

The spokesman said Pakistan Embassy in Washington was seeking consular access to Dr Afia and expected that US authorities would take decision on the issue by today.

He said the government still does not have full information about the case.

"We still do not know when she was arrested originally, where her children are, how she was missing. We are still trying to find these facts," he added.  

QUOTE(BaburMissile @ Aug 7 2008, 01:12 PM)
Please don't tell me that you aren't concerned by whatever happened to the Dr. Afia?

Brother, off course I am concerned but I also have to see why these things happened looking at facts. If we do not discuss and do not talk about than we won’t know and would keep crying on such events. Today it was Aafia and tomorrow it would be someone else.

You do seem to forget the amount of terrorism which our own Pakistanis govt. involved when they were received back from the USA prisons ! Hence, the unfortunate no major interest in the whereabouts of our handed over nationals ! Again which is unfortunate but fact of getting back them from the US prisons !

& don't say Pakistan has not tried to get it's prisoners back :

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/pakistan-affair...-prisoners.html

Taken from Boston Globe as of Nov. 17. Heart breaking letter.

Pakistani writes of his US ordeal

BANNU, Pakistan - Mohamad Azeem fetched one of four creased letters from his son. The return address: Camp X-ray, USA.

''Dear Mom and Dad,'' read Issa Khan's penciled script. ''I am in an American jail. I am being questioned but don't worry.

''I have no connection with the Taliban or their interpretation of our religion,'' Issa Khan's letter went on. ''I pray in my jail that, God willing, I will come home soon because I am innocent.''

Such a message might have alarmed most families. But when the mailman delivered Khan's first letter, in March, the village of Kotka Miralam Daud Shah, near Bannu in the North-West Frontier Province, erupted in joy.

''We were so happy to learn Issa is with the Americans,'' Mohamad Azeem said recently. ''We thought our son had been killed.''

Issa's mother, Sardara Azeem, wept with relief and insisted on a feast of chicken tikka.

Now the family is awaiting further word from Khan, encouraged by the release of four inmates - three Afghans and one Pakistani - from the US prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Khan, who was detained in Afghanistan about a year ago, is among 57 Pakistani suspects at Guantanamo.

Khan's family insists that he is not a fighter, and that he was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Although it is impossible to verify their story, it speaks to the anguish and uncertainty of Pakistanis who were caught up in the events in Afghanistan.

Khan's friends and family describe this as a tragic love story. For months before he was captured, Khan, 28, couldn't concentrate. He was pining for Fahima, the Afghan judge's daughter whom he had courted and wed.

Issa had agreed to let Fahima show off their new baby son to relatives in her hometown, the Afghan city of Mazar-e-Sharif. He stayed behind and grew lonesome at a frontier clinic in Peshawar, Pakistan, where he worked in homeopathic medicine.

Issa Khan persuaded his father to lend him money to bring his wife and son home by bus before the snows blocked the mountain passes near the border.

Khan set off in August 2001 on a dump truck to Mazar-e-Sharif. A few months later, while he was trying to coax in-laws to allow his wife and infant son to return home with him, the US bombs started falling.

It was then, Khan's family and friends say, that he was swept up in the fighting between the US-backed Northern Alliance and the Taliban near Mazar-e-Sharif.

They say they believe he was arrested by Northern Alliance troops seeking to claim bounties, allegedly offered by the United States, for the arrest of suspected Taliban or Al Qaeda fighters.

Pakistani intelligence sources said Northern Alliance commanders could receive $5,000 for each Taliban prisoner and 20,000 for a Qaeda fighter. As a result, bounty hunters rounded up any men who came near the battlegrounds and forced them to confess.

Pakistani officials, who twice interviewed some of the captives in Cuba, have asked the United States to free 50 Pakistani detainees among the 600 prisoners because they pose no threat.

Most of them are younger than 22, and most were so eager to prove their manhood by volunteering to fight the jihad that they signed up at local mosques in the semiautonomous zone near the frontier.

According to Rao Abid Hamid, a prisoners' advocate from the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, most of these youths are clueless about Al Qaeda.

Khan's family insists that he was not interested in waging a holy war, and they want answers.

They have sent petitions to the provincial governor, to Pakistan's president, Pervez Musharraf, to the UN secretary general, Kofi Annan, to the Pakistani ambassador to the United States, Ashraf Jehangir Qazi, and to President Bush, pleading for news of their son.

They received one curt notice, from the Red Cross: Their paperwork had been received. But even that has given them hope. A homecoming party is in the works.

''We are not angry at the Americans,'' said Khan's father, Mohamad Azeem. ''Things were so disturbed at that time. ... But we have no information about any charges against our son. If he had no weapon at the time of his arrest, shouldn't he be released?

And if and when he is finally freed: ''We will all go out in convoy to greet him with music,'' Azeem said. ''In a great procession, the whole village will bring him home. We dream about this every night.''

[Salim]

a person from Dubai called in "live with Talat" talk show he said people from other nationalities now tease us that you people can sell your daughters for money
shameful isn't it or still its ok to support

Isn't such statements full of ignorance? Most people who say this these days are jallay-bhunnay Pakistanis. People could not defend because their corrupt political masters and terrorist groups have filled garbage in their mind with propaganda. What I know is that, only Amal Kansi and Ramzi Yusuf were Pakistani nationals that were sold for money by Thug Nawaz and this statement was made just after those selling.

After that, Pakistan has not sold any Person to any country who had Pakistani Nationality. What I know (actually, it was once quoted on GEO TV) is that Pakistan arrested and handed over 400 people to USA and none of them were Pakistanis. All Pakistanis who are in custody of USA got arrested in Afghanistan.

[must7]

Isn't such statements full of ignorance (and most people who say this these days are jallay-bhunnay Pakistanis) and people could not defend because their political masters has filled garbage in their mind with their propaganda. What I know is that, only Amal Kansi and Ramzi Yusuf were Pakistani nationals that were sold for money by Thug Nawaz and this statement was made just after those selling.

After that, Pakistan has not sold any Person to any country who had Pakistani Nationality. What I know (actually, it was once quoted on GEO TV) is that Pakistan arrested and handed over 400 people to USA and none of them were Pakistanis. All Pakistanis who are in custody of USA got arrested in Afghanistan.

At the time of Nawaz Shareef .. we had not 9/11 ... we were not even inclined to do this .. plus US forces were utilized to apprehend them inside Pakistan !

& when you talk about other countries .. here's others not ready to receive their citizens after the US prison break !

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...2801145_pf.html

82 Inmates Cleared but Still Held at Guantanamo
U.S. Cites Difficulty Deporting Detainees

By Craig Whitlock
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, April 29, 2007; A01



LONDON -- More than a fifth of the approximately 385 prisoners at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have been cleared for release but may have to wait months or years for their freedom because U.S. officials are finding it increasingly difficult to line up places to send them, according to Bush administration officials and defense lawyers.

Since February, the Pentagon has notified about 85 inmates or their attorneys that they are eligible to leave after being cleared by military review panels. But only a handful have gone home, including a Moroccan and an Afghan who were released Tuesday. Eighty-two remain at Guantanamo and face indefinite waits as U.S. officials struggle to figure out when and where to deport them, and under what conditions.

The delays illustrate how much harder it will be to empty the prison at Guantanamo than it was to fill it after it opened in January 2002 to detain fighters captured in Afghanistan and terrorism suspects captured overseas.

In many cases, the prisoners' countries do not want them back. Yemen, for instance, has balked at accepting some of the 106 Yemeni nationals at Guantanamo by challenging the legality of their citizenship.

Another major obstacle: U.S. laws that prevent the deportation of people to countries where they could face torture or other human rights abuses, as in the case of 17 Chinese Muslim separatists who have been cleared for release but fear they could be executed for political reasons if returned to China.

Compounding the problem are persistent refusals by the United States, its European allies and other countries to grant asylum to prisoners who are stateless or have no place to go.

"In general, most countries simply do not want to help," said John B. Bellinger III, legal adviser to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. "Countries believe this is not their problem. They think they didn't contribute to Guantanamo, and therefore they don't have to be part of the solution."

A case in point is Ahmed Belbacha, 37, an Algerian who worked as a hotel waiter in Britain but has been locked up at Guantanamo for five years. The Pentagon has alleged that Belbacha met al-Qaeda founder Osama bin Laden twice and received weapons training in Afghanistan. His attorneys dispute the charges and say he was rounded up with other innocents in Pakistan in early 2002.

On Feb. 22, without explanation, the Pentagon notified Belbacha's lawyers in London that he had been approved to leave Guantanamo. Despite entreaties from the State Department, however, the British government has refused to accept Belbacha and five other immigrants who had lived in the country, because they lack British citizenship.

This month, Clint Williamson, the State Department's ambassador for war crimes, visited Algiers to discuss possible arrangements for the return of two dozen Algerians who remain at Guantanamo, including Belbacha, but no breakthroughs were reported. That country has been slow to accept its citizens.

Zachary Katznelson, a lawyer who represents Belbacha and several other prisoners who have been cleared, said defense attorneys have tried to speed up the process by contacting foreign governments to see if there are any specific obstacles to the return of their clients. In many cases, he said, the prisoners and officials in their home countries are willing to approve the transfer, but the delays persist.

"The holdup is a mystery to me, frankly," said Katznelson, senior counsel for Reprieve, a British legal defense fund. "If the U.S. has cleared these people and they want to go back, I don't understand why they can't just put them on a plane."

Other prisoner advocates said the Bush administration has made its task more difficult by exaggerating the threat posed by most Guantanamo inmates -- officials repeatedly called them "the worst of the worst" -- and refusing to acknowledge mistaken detentions.

Foreign governments have also questioned why U.S. officials should expect other countries to pitch in, given that Washington won't offer asylum to detainees either.

"This is a problem of our own creation, and yet we expect other countries to shoulder the entire burden of a solution," said Ben Wizner, staff attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union. "There needs to be a worldwide solution here. The U.S. has to bear some of that burden. It can't simply expect its partners and allies to absorb all its detainees."

The 82 cleared prisoners who remain stuck in limbo come from 16 countries in the Middle East, North Africa and South Asia, according to defense attorneys who have received official notification of their clients' status.

The 17 Chinese Muslim separatists make up the largest contingent. Other countries with multiple prisoners awaiting release include Afghanistan, Sudan, Tunisia, Uzbekistan and Yemen.

The Pentagon has reduced the population at Guantanamo by roughly half since the peak of 680 people in May 2003, generally by sending prisoners back to their native countries. But U.S. officials said progress has slowed because of the complexity of the remaining cases.

Of the roughly 385 still incarcerated, U.S. officials said they intend to eventually put 60 to 80 on trial and free the rest. But the judicial process has likewise moved at a glacial pace, largely because of constitutional legal challenges.

Only two people have been charged under a military tribunal system approved by Congress last year. One of those cases has been adjudicated. David M. Hicks, an Australian citizen, pleaded guilty in March to lending material support to terrorists. He was sentenced to nine months in prison and is scheduled to be transferred to Australia in May to serve his time there.

Defense lawyers for some of the 82 cleared prisoners whose release is pending said Hicks received a better deal than did their clients who were not charged with any offenses. "One of the cruel ironies is that in Guantanamo, you've got to plead guilty to be released," said Wizner, the ACLU attorney. "It's the only way out of there."

Complicating the return process is that virtually all the prisoners at Guantanamo come from countries that the State Department has cited for records of human rights abuses. Under U.S. rules, a pattern of abuses in a country does not automatically preclude deportation there. Rather, U.S. officials must investigate each case to determine whether an individual is likely to face persecution.

The investigations are time-consuming and often meet with resistance from the prisoners' home countries, which can be sensitive to suggestions that they allow torture, U.S. officials said. In cases where there is a risk of mistreatment, U.S. policy is to obtain a written promise from the host government that the prisoner will not be abused and that U.S. officials will be allowed to monitor the arrangement.

"It often takes us months and months, or even years, to negotiate the human rights assurances that we are comfortable with before we will transfer someone to another country," said Bellinger, the State Department's legal adviser.

Human rights groups have criticized the written assurances as unreliable. In March, the New York-based group Human Rights Watch issued a report on the fate of seven Russians who were released from Guantanamo three years ago, asserting that three of the men have been tortured since their return.

The watchdog group urged the U.S. government to find third-party countries willing to take Guantanamo inmates who are judged to be at risk for political persecution. U.S. officials countered that they have tried to do that for years, with virtually no success.

Only one country has been willing to accept Guantanamo prisoners who had never previously set foot inside its borders. Last year, after prodding by the State Department, the Balkan nation of Albania agreed to take five Chinese separatists who belong to an ethnic group known as Uighurs.

The men were captured in late 2001 after they crossed the Chinese border into Afghanistan and Pakistan. Their attorneys said they were mistakenly taken into custody and had not taken up arms against U.S. forces. U.S. officials said dozens of countries refused to grant asylum to the Uighurs for fear of angering China, which considers them terrorists for leading a secession movement in the western province of Turkestan.

Seventeen other Uighurs who were caught in similar circumstances have been cleared for release but remain in Guantanamo because the State Department has been unable to find a home for them. Human rights groups have pressed the U.S. government to offer the men asylum, to no avail.

A senior U.S. official who spoke on condition of anonymity said that the Bush administration had considered granting the Uighurs asylum but that the idea was nixed by the Department of Homeland Security. The Uighurs would be rejected under U.S. immigration law, the official said, because they once trained in armed camps and because their separatist front, the East Turkestan Islamic Movement, was labeled a terrorist organization by the U.S. government in 2002.

Attorneys for the Uighurs said their predicament has been compounded by the Pentagon's unwillingness to say they don't pose a national security risk to the U.S. government or its allies. In announcing that the Uighurs had been approved to leave Guantanamo, military officials made a point of noting that they had not been exonerated and were still classified as enemy combatants.

"It's not a distinction that makes sense at all," said Michael J. Sternhell, a New York lawyer whose firm represents four of the Uighurs. "It's a caveat that the Defense Department is offering to cover itself."

Some human rights advocates said the Bush administration could speed things up by asking the United Nations or another international body for help.

Manfred Nowak, an Austrian law professor who serves as the U.N. special monitor on torture, said European allies and other countries would continue to duck requests to accept released prisoners as long as the U.S. government approaches them separately. An international commission responsible for finding a solution, he said, might carry more weight.

"If the U.S. is willing to do something to close down Guantanamo, then it should be done in a cooperative manner with the international community," Nowak said. "It's a question of burden-sharing. Otherwise, every individual country that the U.S. approaches says, 'Why us?' "

Staff researcher Julie Tate in Washington contributed to this report.

[BaburMissile]

Brother, off course I am concerned but I also have to see why these things happened looking at facts. If we do not discuss and do not talk about than we won't know and would keep crying on such events. Today it was Aafia and tomorrow it would be someone else. Blaming one or another could not take a person anywhere, as unless we would not talk and know all view points, we would not know. But there are some people who have tiny brains and go berserk if they hear things that they do not like, judging everything according to their pathetic so-called political agendas or mental-set.

Brother, regardless of what really happened no one deserves to be assaulted as she was. It's inhumane and against the tenets of human rights. Let there be one thing clear though. Handing over our own nationals to the US in exchange for dollars is totally unacceptable. We've to keep that in mind. We need to keep our political biases aside.

[Salim]

Anyhow, propaganda against Pakistan by thug and crook politicians, terrorists calling themselves jihadis, and for-sale journalist, that Pakistan sold Pakistanis for money in after 9/11 is not true (other than Kansi and Ramzi, such never happened). As for those who got handed over to USA in last few years, they were all foreign nationals. That is what Pakistan government claims and that is what USA (government of the country that received them and paid for them) accepts.

[must7]

QUOTE(Salim @ Aug 7 2008, 02:21 PM)
Brother, off course I am concerned but I also have to see why these things happened looking at facts. If we do not discuss and do not talk about than we won't know and would keep crying on such events. Today it was Aafia and tomorrow it would be someone else. Blaming one or another could not take a person anywhere, as unless we would not talk and know all view points, we would not know. But there are some people who have tiny brains and go berserk if they hear things that they do not like, judging everything according to their pathetic so-called political agendas or mental-set.


Brother, regardless of what really happened no one deserves to be assaulted as she was. It's inhumane and against the tenets of human rights. Let there be one thing clear though. Handing over our own nationals to the US in exchange for dollars is totally unacceptable. We've to keep that in mind. We need to keep our political biases aside.

BaburMissile .. exactly .. for this we are saying to you please take out peaceful processions during holidays, write letters, emails etc etc ..

It is a good wakening and I am sure your pressure will help Pakistan govt. tell the US to stop such practices ..

We are with you ... but not ready to malign our own name in front of others ! No we are not ready to get maligned, including hurling abuses at our head of state & army.

[Salim]

Brother, regardless of what really happened no one deserves to be assaulted as she was. It's inhumane and against the tenets of human rights. Let there be one thing clear though. Handing over our own nationals to the US in exchange for dollars is totally unacceptable. We've to keep that in mind. We need to keep our political biases aside.

You are absolutely right that such inhumane things should not happen to anyone, and no one defends that neither there is any argument about it. No one wrote that what happened to Dr Aafia Siddiqui was right or that it is defendable ... only a mad man would defend that. But to argue that why it happened and cause of it, should not make anyone upset. Obviously, most Pakistanis would see things differently but we have to also keep in mind how others see things.

But on the other hand, it is also not right to spread propaganda or buy propaganda of vested interests to malign Pakistan, that Pakistan sold Pakistani nationals in exchange of dollars. Pakistanis who were working on ground did received dollars in exchange of those they arrested and Pakistan handed them over to USA as USA wanted them, but those who were handed over to USA were all foreign nationals, and as for receiving dollars for them, it is normal practice in Pakistan that when people on ground arrest wanted dangerous criminals (even daku or smugglers), they get rewards from government.

[Those who work at ground level in Pakistan doing all dirty work, they get peanuts as salary in Pakistan is very low, and thus when they endanger their lives fighting and arresting dangerous criminals, it is not bad that they should get some rewards and one should not feel jealous or envious because of that].

[CounterPunch]

i cudnt read all the posts, as my nerves cudnt stand it..man!! we are all guilty!! we have supported one or the other party and not a single party came out against it as it should have...we are beasts!! we can go out to vote in scroching heat, we can protest against patrol price hike, but no one came out for her....her family and she suffered alone!! imagine!! for 4 long years!!!
i find her suffering and her blood on my hands...ya Allah ! have mercy on her...Pls Allah ease her suffering..


and my blood boils at the governement for not owning her now even..and leaving her to her fate...She have been in prison for last 4 years..and they are saying 'they caught her on 17th july!!

thats sick man!!!

[complicated]

Isn't such statements full of ignorance (and most people who say this these days are jallay-bhunnay Pakistanis) and people could not defend because their corrupt political masters and terrorist groups have filled garbage in their mind with propaganda. What I know is that, only Amal Kansi and Ramzi Yusuf were Pakistani nationals that were sold for money by Thug Nawaz and this statement was made just after those selling.

After that, Pakistan has not sold any Person to any country who had Pakistani Nationality. What I know (actually, it was once quoted on GEO TV) is that Pakistan arrested and handed over 400 people to USA and none of them were Pakistanis. All Pakistanis who are in custody of USA got arrested in Afghanistan.

do you know what are we discussing here? A Pakistani woman

[Salim]

do you know what are we discussing here? A Pakistani woman

Yea, a Pakistani women who has American passport (or is American permanent resident), lived and worked in USA, and USA allege her of certain crimes (regardless of those crimes are fabricated or real). She is not any Pakistani women who lives in Pakistan and never got involved with other country. Further, we also have to think that there are 100s of thousand Pakistani women in USA (even Dr Aafia Siddiqui sister) and nothing happened to them, so we have to think why such happened to her.

Have you got answer to question that why her and why not those 100s of thousand other Pakistani women living in USA, many occasionally visit Pakistan and many visit Pakistan regularly (many of them are practicing religious too)? Don't we need answer to these and many questions and not stay blind of causes, so that such does not happen to others?

[the saint]

Thank you. Our great intelligence agencies have served the people well. Not!. U expect this from the Americans but when the ISI is directly involved in these acts it makes you angry unfortunately all you ISI lovers in here wont even admit it. Unfortunately the political parties currently running the government are worse and cant be trusted.

[asal-main]

Its not just about this woman. I dont know why but most terror suspects were held in secrecy.  If Aafia Siddiqui is guilty of something, then it should be made known specifically and publically. What gives any govt right to kidnap people and make them disappear. This is against the natural right. No govt has authority to own anyone. She has been held this long for some reason. However there were worse cases of innocent people traveling in America, Canada, Italy, got secretely arrested and sent to countries like Poland, Syria or Egypt for torture.  Not one Muslim country ever protested this tyranny. This does not give sense of security and confidence. We have to break this oppressive global slave system. Otherwise we will all, and especially Muslims, become slaves to it.

[Tropicana]

Further, we also have to think that there are 100s of thousand Pakistani women in USA (even Dr Aafia Siddiqui sister) and nothing happened to them, so we have to think why such happened to her.

Faulty logic, one that Indians often used after killing Kashmiri people and by other oppressive forces as well, i.e. "you have to ask why that man was killed by our troops, there are so many Kashmiris they didnt kill, so surely the killed man was guilty"

It changes the onus from the alleged govt to the victim, time tested tactic...........


After US soldiers raped a 14 yr old Iraqi Girl, the event was being discussed, and one onlin neocon supporter said something like, "there are millions of iraqi girls, so why was she raped and not someone else? maybe she was being a real b*****?" Even Israeli soldiers use this logic after killing Palestinian children,...

She may be guilty, but that has to judgment has to be done proper way
, not kidnappings and denials by fbi etc

[pakistanzindabaad]

Salim bhayi;

I really don't need to ban you (Unless you become a real issue)...

You're justifying the abduction of this nations mayain behnain... Apni asliyet to aap yaheen sey dikhaa detey hain...

Remember that by justifying such actions you become in God's eyes a semi perpetrator of those same actions...

Kia extreme huddain hum nay cross ki hain...

Cant imagine that such talk is coming from descendants of people who over ran the indian subcontinent because of the letter of a lady in similar distress...

You guys can justify anything for your false gods... Shame...

[clutch]

Innocent until proven guilty.

That too.. not in a sham court behind closed doors.

For all those advocating Dr. Aafia's blood, remember, we as a Muslim Ummah will one day be answerable to God for her plight.

My heart goes out to her & her family.

Muslim blood is not cheap!...

[Salim]

Faulty logic, one that Indians often used after killing Kashmiri people and by other oppressive forces as well, i.e. "you have to ask why that man was killed by out troops, there are so many Kashmiris they didnt kill, so surely the killed man was guilty"

It changes the onus from the alleged govt to the victim, time tested tactic...........

Faulty logic? That is the way you think, that has mega-fault. We cannot compare Kashmiris with Pakistanis living in USA. Kashmiris are part of Kashmir. Indians are in Kashmir as occupying force. Most Kashmiris want to get out of Indian occupation (and that is why India do not agree with plebiscite). Many Kashmiris are fighting for their independence but some are active so they get victimised, some get victimised even when they are not active. For Kashmiris, to fight for their independence is not guilt but their right.

As for Pakistanis living in USA, they chose to live there and accepted American rule over them willingly. Those who took American nationality, they took oath of allegiance to USA, allegiance to fight and die for USA. No one forced them to live and work in USA. They are not occupied people like Kashmiris. Those who compare Pakistanis living in USA and Kashmiris fighting for independence are not thinking straight, neither those who bring such examples in discussion could talk logically, as such examples are unrelated.

[asal-main]

This is a result of western republicanism and democracy where people, hence governments think they have right to impose themselves upon others, depriving others of their freedom and independence. Young, old, dumb, idiot, wise, smart, violent, peaceful, moral, immoral all become equal. No respect to elders, to women. Kill, kidnap anyone. Its like slavery.

So called 'Islamist' parties, Islamic republics including Pakistan, any republic are all Slave products of this western thinking. Like many Americans, British, French, many think they can impose themselves on others. In the case of Taliban violently so. So is Hindutva, Communism, Fascism, Nationalism. These only have lesser checks and balances, and are little brothers of the same western democracy and republicanism concept.

If we want to talk about freedom, then pre-democratic, pre-britsh era in subcontinent was freer, peaceful, and prosperous to the public than anything western countries evolved.

[Saira]

Salim bhayi;

I really don't need to ban you (Unless you become a real issue)...

You're justifying the abduction of this nations mayain behnain... Apni asliyet to aap yaheen sey dikhaa detey hain...

Remember that by justifying such actions you become in God's eyes a semi perpetrator of those same actions...

Kia extreme huddain hum nay cross ki hain...

Cant imagine that such talk is coming from descendants of people who over ran the indian subcontinent because of the letter of a lady in similar distress...

You guys can justify anything for your false gods... Shame...

First I thought that I should probably delete the posts which were derailing the discussion by arguing that Nawaz Sharif is worse, or those which were indirectly in some twisted form were trying to justify this. But then I thought what is the use ? Agur Pakistanis can do "ifs" and "buts" on this issue, if they are unable to unite on this issue then really whats the use. After this, nothing will surprise me. Perhaps we do deserve this fate after all. As one poster mentioned above " lets all cower and hide in our holes and wait for our turn." Outrage when somebody dishonors you can not be taught, you either have it or you dont.

I know you are moderator who has pathetic mentality of a tyrant that dance on the tune of some politicians (without naming) and their party-policies. You have made this forum not Pakistanidefencefroum, but Pakistanbashingforum, Nawazpropagandaforum, Musharrafhateforum and your personal colony. Now go ban me, dance on your so-called pathetic victory, and possibly delete whatever I wrote, as that is only thing you can do in this little illusive kingdom of yours that you think you have conquered over the years.

Somebody who bans you because you call chaste women prostitutes is not Anti-Pakistan. He will have no choice left if you continue to distort the facts like you have done in the above post. How can you cry about free speech when you are quick to label someone Anti Pakistan just because he doesn't support Musharraf. I for one would not be surprised if your wish about getting banned does come true.

[Darwaish]

Outrage when somebody dishonors you can not be taught, you either have it or you dont.

Bilkul sahih Sis. Ghairut dilaney se nae aatey. Your blood either boils when the daughters and sisters of your country are dishonored or it doesn't. There is no room for half baked, we condemn this But ... or Bura who Lekin NS hota toa aur bura hota.

Sis since we the Pakistani males are not up to it, to defend you in unison, then I would like to request you to be careful with your comments and critique. Lest anybody comes after you. Hum main se toa koi nae uthey ga. Rest assured.

[Salim]

Somebody who bans you because you call chaste women prostitutes is not Anti-Pakistan. He will have no choice left if you continue to distort the facts like you have done in the above post. How can you cry about free speech when you are quick to label someone Anti Pakistan just because he doesn't support Musharraf. I for one would not be surprised if your wish about getting banned does come true.

What a fabricated accusation full of assumptions without knowing facts. On similar fabricated accusation based on assumption, Pakistanzindabad once banned me. I never called anyone prostitute but he assumed and then acted on his assumption. It is not my fault that he assumes wrong and act on it, though it is different matter that being Moderator, people suffer because of his assumptions.

PakistanZindabad claimed in his post that Mrs X wrote 'regarding some President Musharraf actions or decision (I do not remember)' that no one knew and if she had not written than no one could have known.

I wrote that: If no one knew than how Mrs X knew? How close was she with those who knew? Was she sleeping with those who knew?

Now, from above I could not see that I was calling Mrs X prostitute, rather I was questioning the claim that Mrs X wrote something so secretive that no one knew and because of her writing it came on surface. To me, I was not questioning the writing of Mrs X or how she knew what she wrote (or even if she wrote was correct or not). I was questioning the claim that what she wrote could be so secretive that no one knew.

Now, it did not occurred to PakistanZindabad that I was questioning his claim and not talking anything about Mrs X (actually, she was not even object of my post and Mrs X could have been any A, B, or C ... post would have been same), but he assumed (or decided to assume) that I am implying that Mrs X was sleeping around and thus I am calling her prostitute (though neither I used such words, neither I meant it, neither I believe any sensible person can imply that I called Mrs X prostitute from what I wrote).


Another thing is that, I did not distort any facts in my above posts. I put what I understand and it is for anyone to question that and correct me if whatever I understand is wrong.

As for labelling someone on this forum as anti-Pakistan, I have never wrote that anywhere in my post ... if I have than please quote. Actually, I have never took name of any person (who is Pakistani) and called that person anti-Pakistan. I have never even labelled any politician or political party anti-Pakistan (something, many on this forum continuously do). Only people I ever called anti-Pakistan are those who use religion to spread hate in Pakistan, use force to push their understanding of Islam on others, fighting Pakistani forces, or blowing themselves and killing innocent Pakistanis with them.... plus indirectly to those who do propaganda for these forces. So, again, your accusation is baseless fabrication.

[*Zarrar Jareeh*]

I know you are moderator who has pathetic mentality of a tyrant that dance on the tune of some politicians (without naming) and their party-policies. You have made this forum not Pakistanidefencefroum, but Pakistanbashingforum, Nawazpropagandaforum, Musharrafhateforum and your personal colony. Now go ban me, dance on your so-called pathetic victory, and possibly delete whatever I wrote, as that is only thing you can do in this little illusive kingdom of yours that you think you have conquered over the years.

      
  

[Saira]

What a fabricated accusation full of assumptions without knowing facts. On similar fabricated accusation based on assumption, Pakistanzindabad once banned me. I never called anyone prostitute but he assumed and then acted on his assumption. It is not my fault that he assumes wrong and act on it, though it is different matter that being Moderator, people suffer because of his assumptions.

PakistanZindabad claimed in his post that Mrs X wrote 'regarding some President Musharraf actions or decision (I do not remember)' that no one knew and if she had not written than no one could have known.

I wrote that: If no one knew than how Mrs X knew? How close was she with those who knew? Was she sleeping with those who knew?

Now, from above I could not see that I was calling Mrs X prostitute, rather I was questioning the claim that Mrs X wrote something so secretive that no one knew and because of her writing it came on surface. To me, I was not questioning the writing of Mrs X or how she knew what she wrote (or even if she wrote was correct or not). I was questioning the claim that what she wrote could be so secretive that no one knew.

Now, it did not occurred to PakistanZindabad that I was questioning his claim and not talking anything about Mrs X (actually, she was not even object of my post and Mrs X could have been any A, B, or C ... post would have been same), but he assumed (or decided to assume) that I am implying that Mrs X was sleeping around and thus I am calling her prostitute (though neither I used such words, neither I meant it, neither I believe any sensible person can imply that I called Mrs X prostitute from what I wrote).
Another thing is that, I did not distort any facts in my above posts. I put what I understand and it is for anyone to question that and correct me if whatever I understand is wrong.

As for labelling someone on this forum as anti-Pakistan, I have never wrote that anywhere in my post ... if I have than please quote. Actually, I have never took name of any person (who is Pakistani) and called that person anti-Pakistan. I have never even labelled any politician or political party anti-Pakistan (something, many on this forum continuously do). Only people I ever called anti-Pakistan are those who use religion to spread hate in Pakistan, use force to push their understanding of Islam on others, fighting Pakistani forces, or blowing themselves and killing innocent Pakistanis with them.... plus indirectly to those who do propaganda for these forces. So, again, your accusation is baseless fabrication.

PZ is in his right to make assumptions because decisions and judgments are based on a personal call which in turn is based on how you perceive things. That responsibility has been given to him by the administrator/owners of this website who entrusted his perception. So your complaint is really off the mark here as the job came with the responsibility of keeping members inline based on his perception/judgment NOT yours.  

Secondly, the remark which you made was not in good taste. To say that how did she get information ..was it because she slept with them is attacking her and indirectly calling her a prostitute. Undermining a female's credibility by suggesting stuff like  this is quiet sexist to begin with. You might not agree with this but then I have never found one member who agreed with his post getting edited. What matter's is if the concerned Mod, in this case PZ thought it was representing. Moderating is not an exact science and until you can convince the Admins to come up with an alternative system you will have to do with judgment calls. Just to put it into perspective I actually agree with PZ on this and think that you were wrong in your comments.

Lastly, you claimed that PZ had made this forum into a Pakistani Bashing forum. What is this ? If not accusing somebody of being Anti - Pakistan. You can play this game of I did not say these exact words all day long but what you implied is pretty clear. You are quick to label and then shout about suppression of freedom. This game can be played both ways and its always a bad idea to play it with a Mod. Unless you can convince the admins of an alternative system of Moderating I would advise you to refrain from personally attacking him. As is he has shown remarkable restraint in letting this conversation proceed.

[Jahan]

PZ is in his right to make assumptions because decisions and judgments are based on a personal call which in turn is based on how you perceive things. That responsibility has been given to him by the administrator/owners of this website who entrusted his perception. So your complaint is really off the mark here as the job came with the responsibility of keeping members inline based on his perception/judgment NOT yours.

Secondly, the remark which you made was not in good taste. To say that how did she get information ..was it because she slept with them is attacking her and indirectly calling her a prostitute. Undermining a female's credibility by suggesting stuff like this is quiet sexist to begin with. You might not agree with this but then I have never found one member who agreed with his post getting edited. What matter's is if the concerned Mod, in this case PZ thought it was representing. Moderating is not an exact science and until you can convince the Admins to come up with an alternative system you will have to do with judgment calls. Just to put it into perspective I actually agree with PZ on this and think that you were wrong in your comments.

Lastly, you claimed that PZ had made this forum into a Pakistani Bashing forum. What is this ? If not accusing somebody of being Anti - Pakistan. You can play this game of I did not say these exact words all day long but what you implied is pretty clear. You are quick to label and then shout about suppression of freedom. This game can be played both ways and its always a bad idea to play it with a Mod. Unless you can convince the admins of an alternative system of Moderating I would advise you to refrain from personally attacking him. As is he has shown remarkable restraint in letting this conversation proceed.

[redgriffin]

I agree with PZ, Saira and Derwaish's views.
Atleast now I can clearly id the baighairats on this forum.
I can't find words to express my anger.

[Salim]

I asked a question regarding Nationality of Dr Aafia Siddiqui and no one answered yet. I assumed that she is American though I am not sure and thus I was trying to find that if it is true. I believe that if she is American than Pakistan could not be blamed, but if she is Pakistani than Pakistan government has a lot of responsibility towards her. Nationality makes lot of difference as a country is responsible of its national. Is it not sad that we talk about someone and forget most important aspect of that person identity, and that is Nationality?

It is really surprising and sad that so many people here are interested on her case but could not give definitive answer regarding her nationality. After doing lot of search, still I could not find any reference that she is American or holding just Pakistani nationality.

[Tropicana]

Faulty logic? That is the way you think, that has mega-fault. We cannot compare Kashmiris with Pakistanis living in USA. Kashmiris are part of Kashmir. Indians are in Kashmir as occupying force. Most Kashmiris want to get out of Indian occupation (and that is why India do not agree with plebiscite). Many Kashmiris are fighting for their independence but some are active so they get victimised, some get victimised even when they are not active. For Kashmiris, to fight for their independence is not guilt but their right.

As for Pakistanis living in USA, they chose to live there and accepted American rule over them willingly. Those who took American nationality, they took oath of allegiance to USA, allegiance to fight and die for USA. No one forced them to live and work in USA. They are not occupied people like Kashmiris. Those who compare Pakistanis living in USA and Kashmiris fighting for independence are not thinking straight, neither those who bring such examples in discussion could talk logically, as such examples are unrelated.

did u even read my post?

I am not comparing the people, I am comparing your justifications to the tune of "if they targetted her, there must be a good reason for it, why didnt they target her sister"?

I said such justifications are baseless and have been used by many state sponsored death squads including in Kashmir.

Step 1) Someone gets killed, tortured extra judicially by govt, fbi, etc

Step 2) Supporters justify the act by saying "there must be a good reason why he/she was killed/tortured"


So its not about Pakistanis in USA and what not, its about due process of law being ignored, and supporters trying to support FBI/CIA's illegal torture on other Muslims...

Then again, there are some Muslims who worship dollars and respect in eyes of Neocons, so I am not surprised......

[Syed Arbab Ali]

Blah Blah Blah Blah...

Shutup .

A Pakistani Muslim Lady Is Kidnapped By Yanknees or SOLD by Busharaf.

Daughter of This Land and Sister in Faith is Raped By Bloody Shame less Son of ######.

and Worst of All Some Freeks here are trying to justify American Gangerter Approch, Honestly Shame on You.. Probably Next time when somebody Kidnapess a Relitives of Your's and Rapes her Himulate her Childern THEN I WILL ASK YOU. You guys Dont feel the pain Because ............... what can i  say. ABB tu dukh Hota hai yaar.


The Pimp rulers of this Land who sell Their Daughter for Dollars Demand Worst Possible Punishment, Starting from the Person or Agency who handed her over.
To Hell with B@$trd Americans and Their Allies.

[Oracle]

Blah Blah Blah Blah...

Shutup .

A Pakistani Muslim Lady Is Kidnapped By Yanknees or SOLD by Busharaf.

Daughter of This Land and Sister in Faith is Raped By Bloody Shame less Son of ######.

and Worst of All Some Freeks here are trying to justify American Gangerter Approch, Honestly Shame on You.. Probably Next time when somebody Kidnapess a Relitives of Your's and Rapes her Himulate her Childern THEN I WILL ASK YOU. You guys Dont feel the pain Because ............... what can i  say. ABB tu dukh Hota hai yaar.
The Pimp rulers of this Land who sell Their Daughter for Dollars Demand Worst Possible Punishment, Starting from the Person or Agency who handed her over.
To Hell with B@$trd Americans and Their Allies.

totally agree, Musharaf should be charged for this issue and inquired in public for details that can help the miserable lady's case.
Americans should be asked to punish those responsible in an open trial. and Aafia should be appologized and reimbursed for undue insult and injuries.

[Tropicana]

and Worst of All Some Freeks here are trying to justify American Gangerter Approch, Honestly Shame on You.. Probably Next time when somebody Kidnapess a Relitives of Your's and Rapes her Himulate her Childern THEN I WILL ASK YOU. You guys Dont feel the pain Because ............... w

Here's the thing, those who support such actions, think that they wont be targetted because they are enlightened, and dont have beards or wear Hijab. They think only "jahil mullahs" will be targetted and that they will be considered the "good guys" by neocons.

But as we saw in Bosnia and Gujurat, when they come after Muslims, they dont care who is bearded and who is enlightened and drinks beer. They wont look at who supported Dr. Aaafia's kidnapping and who didnt, they will go after all Muslims, including the enlightened ones, and its only then they will discover the folly of their actions.....