33 replies to this topic

[JF 17 Thunder]

- Deleted -

[Daredevil]

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Landmark_c...ntries_999.html

Landmark cluster bomb ban agreed by 111 countries

by Staff Writers
Dublin (AFP) May 28, 2008
Delegates from 111 nations agreed Wednesday a landmark treaty to ban cluster bombs, Ireland's foreign ministry said, in a deal that lacks the backing of major producers and stockpilers of the lethal weapons.
After 10 days of painstaking negotiations at Croke Park stadium in Dublin, diplomats agreed the wording of a wide-ranging pact to outlaw the use, production, transfer and stockpiling of cluster munitions by its signatories.

It also provides for the welfare of victims and the clearing of areas contaminated by unexploded cluster bombs.

The agreement will be formally adopted on Friday, and signed in Oslo on December 2-3. Signatories would then need to ratify it.

"This is a very strong and ambitious text which nevertheless was able to win consensus among all delegations," said Irish Foreign Minister Micheal Martin. "It is a real contribution to international humanitarian law."

But crucially, the United States, Russia, China, India, Israel and Pakistan -- all major producers and stockpilers of cluster bombs -- were absent from the Dublin talks, and thus not part of the agreement.

The Irish Department for Foreign Affairs said 111 participating states and 18 observer countries attended.

The process "has been characterised by a true determination on all sides to reach an ambitious and consensual outcome," the ministry said.

The treaty requires the destruction of stockpiled munitions within eight years -- though it leaves the door open for future, more precise generations of cluster munitions that pose less harm to civilians.

Britain was widely cited by campaigners as being at the forefront of a group of states seeking to water down the treaty.

But in a dramatic move Wednesday, Prime Minister Gordon Brown announced in London that Britain would withdraw all its cluster bombs from service in a bid to "break the log jam" in the Dublin talks.

Brown later said in a statement he was "delighted" with the treaty's agreement, and said it made "the world a safer place."

The draft treaty agreed in Dublin read:

"Each state party undertakes never under any circumstances to:

"(a) Use cluster munitions;

"(b) Develop, produce, otherwise acquire, stockpile, retain or transfer to anyone, directly or indirectly, cluster munitions;

"© Assist, encourage or induce anyone to engage in any activity prohibited to a state party under this convention."

Much of the wrangling at Croke Park focused on what signatories could and could not do in joint operations with states still using cluster bombs.

The draft text said signatories "may engage in military cooperation and operations".

But the Cluster Munition Coalition, an umbrella group of non-governmental organisations, hopes that the treaty will stigmatise the use of cluster munitions -- as the similar Ottawa Treaty did for landmines -- and stop countries from helping others to use them.

CMC co-chair Simon Conway told AFP the treaty was a compromise but nonetheless "incredibly strong".

"We're going to end up with a strong treaty that prohibits every cluster bomb that's ever been used, with no transition periods, with strong obligations on clearance and particularly strong obligations on victim assistance," he said.

"The people that have done the most compromising are the bad guys," he added, welcoming Britain's "massive movement".

"They are giving up for all the right reasons, which is that they cause indiscriminate harm and kill civilians."

Hildegarde Vansintjan, advocacy officer for disability campaigners Handicap International, said the convention made states responsible for providing assistance to cluster bomb victims.

The treaty "would be a real step forward for the people suffering from cluster munitions all over the world," she told AFP.

The cluster munitions ban process, started by Norway in February 2007, took the same path as the 1997 Ottawa Treaty by going outside the United Nations to avoid vetoes and seal a swift pact.

Cluster munitions are among the weapons that pose the gravest dangers to civilians, especially in heavily bombed countries like Laos, Vietnam and Afghanistan.

Dropped from planes or fired from artillery, they explode in mid-air, randomly scattering bomblets. Countries are seeking a ban due to the risk of civilians being killed or maimed by their indiscriminate, wide area effect.

They also pose a lasting threat to civilians as many bomblets fail to explode on impact.

Cluster bombs ban text agreed after British move
The text of a landmark international convention to ban cluster bombs was agreed Wednesday by delegates from more than 100 countries meeting in Dublin, an Irish foreign ministry spokeswoman told AFP.

After 10 days of often tense debate at Croke Park stadium in the Irish capital, diplomats agreed the wording of a wide-ranging pact that would completely end the use, production, transfer and stockpiling of cluster munitions by its signatories.

It also provides for the welfare of victims and the clearing of areas contaminated by unexploded cluster bombs.

"The text has been agreed by all delegates," the spokeswoman said.

The treaty requires the destruction of stockpiled munitions within eight years.

Britain was widely cited by campaigners as being at the forefront of a group of states seeking to water down the treaty.

But in a dramatic move Wednesday, Prime Minister Gordon Brown announced in London that Britain would withdraw all its cluster bombs from service in a bid to break the deadlock in the Dublin talks.

"We have decided we will take all our types of cluster bombs out of service," Brown said.

"I believe that is going to make a difference to the negotiations that are now taking place."

The draft treaty agreed in Dublin read:

"Each state party undertakes never under any circumstances to:

"(a) Use cluster munitions;

"(b) Develop, produce, otherwise acquire, stockpile, retain or transfer to anyone, directly or indirectly, cluster munitions;

"© Assist, encourage or induce anyone to engage in any activity prohibited to a state party under this convention."

China, India, Israel, Pakistan, Russia and the United States -- all major producers and stockpilers -- are absent from the Dublin talks.

Much of the wrangling at Croke Park focused on what signatories could and could not do in joint operations with states still using cluster bombs.

The draft text said signatories "may engage in military cooperation and operations".

But the Cluster Munition Coalition (CMC), an umbrella group of non-governmental organisations, hopes that the treaty will stigmatise the use of cluster munitions -- as the similar Ottawa Treaty did for anti-personnel landmines -- and stop countries from helping others to use them.

The CMC said the treaty was a compromise but nonetheless "incredibly strong".

"The treaty is going through," CMC co-chair Simon Conway told AFP.

"We're going to end up with a strong treaty that prohibits every cluster bomb that's ever been used, with no transition periods, with strong obligations on clearance and particularly strong obligations on victim assistance."

He welcomed Britain's "massive movement", saying it was giving up its cluster munitions "for all the right reasons."

"The people that have done the most compromising are the bad guys," he added.

"We've seen significant movement by countries that literally a week ago were saying there was no way they were going to give up these weapons.

"That will make a dramatic difference. They are giving up for all the right reasons, which is that they cause indiscriminate harm and kill civilians."

Brown told reporters at his Downing Street office: "We have decided, after a great deal of discussion, that we can help break the log jam so that we can get international agreement that would ban cluster bombs.

"I think this would be a big step forward to make the world a safer place."

The cluster munitions ban process, started by Norway in February 2007, has taken the same path as the landmark 1997 Ottawa Treaty: going outside the United Nations to avoid vetoes and seal a swift pact.

The Dublin gathering is aiming to thrash out a definitive agreement, to be signed in Oslo on December 2-3. Signatories would then need to ratify it.

Cluster munitions are among the weapons that pose the gravest dangers to civilians, especially in heavily bombed countries like Laos, Vietnam and Afghanistan.

Dropped from planes or fired from artillery, they explode in mid-air, randomly scattering bomblets. Countries are seeking a ban due to the risk of civilians being killed or maimed by their indiscriminate, wide area effect.

They also pose a lasting threat to civilians as many bomblets fail to explode on impact.

[Asad]

UN = LN

LN: League of Nations

[platinum786]

Good for us. Cluster bombs are en effective weapon, especially in the tank battles that might occur in Punjab/sindh/Rajahstan type areas.

We can't afford to lose weapons we need just because the white man in europe has no need for it. Who is Belgium going to bomb anyway?

These nations, they face no threats thus can make such agreements.

[airomerix]

Pakistan has made a right decesion, atleast we wont seek help from UN in an hour of need

[ali23]

Unlike US and Israel we don't bomb civilians so there is no need to sign the treaty.Can anybody confirm that whether Israel is included in those 111 countries?If not then the media has missed a criminal.

[crazyinsane105]

Unlike US and Israel we don't bomb civilians so there is no need to sign the treaty.Can anybody confirm that whether Israel is included in those 111 countries?If not then the media has missed a criminal.

US, China, India, Israel, Pakistan, and Russia are not part of the treaty.

[el nino]

These five countries have not signed because they feel they may wel need them at any time in a MAJOR or MINOR conflict like Kargil.

I agree cluster bombs are very useful tools

[Momin-e-mubtila]

We need to speed up development of precision-guided submunitions.  Once we do that, the need for cluster bombs will diminish quite a bit.

[saleemraja]

The signatures of USA and Israel has no meaning. They flout treaties whenever they wish and tear up agreements at their whim. They secretly continue to design and manufacture the most barbaric weapons and preach it is wrong for other countries to do so.

Unlike US and Israel we don't bomb civilians so there is no need to sign the treaty.Can anybody confirm that whether Israel is included in those 111 countries?If not then the media has missed a criminal.

[Rehan_Aviation Artist]

AOA,

I think Pakistan has taken the right step.

Cluster Bombs are very effective in destroying the enemy concentration areas such as fuel dumps, army camps, flight lines.

India now has a wide range of advance weapons. By signig the treaty we would lose the use of an effective weapon.

Moreover, Pakistan has always worked on the principle, not to kill the civilians.

Remember that, in 1965 war, most of the pilots were saying the Amritsar radar can be destroyed completely by one or two napalm bombs but AM Nur Khan rejected that proposal because Amritsar radar was located near civilian population.

Allah hafiz

[airomerix]

are there any sanctions against those countries who hav rejected this proposal. iam sure there will be if US and israel agreed to sign this deal.

[ali23]

most of the pilots were saying the Amritsar radar can be destroyed completely by one or two napalm bombs

I love the smell of Napalm in the morning.It smells like victory.......

BTW pakistan did use Cluster Bombs in 1971.I saw a GP Captain Hussaini's painting showing that

[Rehan_Aviation Artist]

aoa,

Yaar, there is a misunderstanding.

I have also seen that painting. It was made when PAF got Cluster Bomb capability. The mirage depicted in that painting is Mirage V PA. It was inducted after 1971 war.

But most of the time, the painting is associated with 1971 war, mistankingly.

[visionary]

The reason that USA didnt sign it themselves we shouldnt either. Do you people know that USA has still not signed the CTBT himself!!!????

[shahid_2dk]

We should seek to sign it WITH India.
Unless India signs this treaty, we shouldn't.
But only kept as a detterence.

I don't care what the skin color of the person is who came up with this idea, problem is that cluster bombs kills extra many civilians because they don't detonate on the military forces.

Now I don't know about you guys, but as muslims it is STRICTLY FORBIDDEN to kill civlians, NO EXCUSES at all.
I don't care how effective they are, if the probability, and not just probability but if it is proven that this bomb of Shaytaan kills innocent civilians, this should be wiped of the list. Yeah people may turn to adultry etc. in Pakistan, but it is still the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan" and not the "Cluster throwing Pakistanis of Asia"
Now if PAF can gurantee, and no I am not talking about a US garantee but a real promise that cluster bombs won't kill civilians, then I can go with it, but if not, then get rid of them. Bunker busters or carpet bombing can surely take away large concentrations of enemy forces or fuel dumps etc. too.

I am glad to read Rehans post: about AM Nur Khan.   

With Salam and Regards /Shahid

[Rehan_Aviation Artist]

AOA,

Thank you shahid_2dk  

Regards,

ALLAH HAFIZ

[aziqbal]

I am against cluter bombs and Pakistan should sign the Cluster bomb treaty, cluter bomb is used for wide open infantry advance and it has a very high failure rate and doesnt due justice to its use.

It is a dirty weapon for weak nations which targets civilians and stays around for decades, only the lossers use cluster bombs people who cant fight real wars and throw them on poor people and they kill them even after war ended years ago.

Pakistan is better than that and we should ban use of cluster bombs in any war. If anything Pakistan should advocate to ban them because we have seen what mines and cluster bombs have done in Kashmir and Afghanistan.

[Munir]

The western nations have nuclear, chemical and conventional power and if needed they will destroy a nation military and politially. They do not care about one or more custerbombs. They used dangerous nuclear waste in bullets in Irac and Afghanistan. They used clusterbombs in Bosnia, Irac and Afghanistan and now the rest of the world must accept a treaty? I don't think that the western world cares about aything then its own wealth. And all is accetpable inthe titles called democracy, freedom of speech or painting the other as terrorist. They lied in front of UN about Al Qaida, chemical weapons and Irac. What do we have to understand? They consume most energy in the world. They pollute more then any other world can achieve. They have the largest numbers in weapons... Yet we now suddenly have a treaty... And thank God USA and Israel are also not accepting it. Otherwise one would have heard the title axes of evil a lot earlier...

[airomerix]

I am against cluter bombs and Pakistan should sign the Cluster bomb treaty, cluter bomb is used for wide open infantry advance and it has a very high failure rate and doesnt due justice to its use.

It is a dirty weapon for weak nations which targets civilians and stays around for decades, only the lossers use cluster bombs people who cant fight real wars and throw them on poor people and they kill them even after war ended years ago.

Pakistan is better than that and we should ban use of cluster bombs in any war. If anything Pakistan should advocate to ban them because we have seen what mines and cluster bombs have done in Kashmir and Afghanistan.

Excusme Mr!!!

Stop miss guiding people here. After all if this Anti- cluster weapon movement is launched to BAN a LETHAL weapon rather then they are just trying to BAN a weapon which is used by loosers according to u!!

The cluster bombs are used over military bases and over armoured battle group which are intended to be destoryed in multiple numbers. If 100 tanks are advancing over a certain terrain, they using cluster bombs would be a feaseable rather then firing 100 rockets with different angles!!!
Yes civilians are killed but none of the weapon in this world knows the difference between a civilian and a soldier!!

MIND IT

[aziqbal]

Excusme Mr!!!

Stop miss guiding people here. After all if this Anti- cluster weapon movement is launched to BAN a LETHAL weapon rather then they are just trying to BAN a weapon which is used by loosers according to u!!

The cluster bombs are used over military bases and over armoured battle group which are intended to be destoryed in multiple numbers. If 100 tanks are advancing over a certain terrain, they using cluster bombs would be a feaseable rather then firing 100 rockets with different angles!!!
Yes civilians are killed but none of the weapon in this world knows the difference between a civilian and a soldier!!

MIND IT

Grow up, and who are you the official spokesman for the Pakistan military, if anyone is misguided its you, cluster bombs killed more people since conflict ended than in conflict itself first go and learn something before opeing your big mouth and making a fool of yourself.

Have you ever heard of smart bombs, more accurate than ever with minimal collateral damage and what kind of stuipid example are u using? who in the right mind is going to role out 100 tanks with no air cover get back to your playstation.

If you had seen what cluter bombs to do children you wouldnt be acting so immature ok for you sitting at home advocating thier use.

[aziqbal]

The western nations have nuclear, chemical and conventional power and if needed they will destroy a nation military and politially. They do not care about one or more custerbombs. They used dangerous nuclear waste in bullets in Irac and Afghanistan. They used clusterbombs in Bosnia, Irac and Afghanistan and now the rest of the world must accept a treaty? I don't think that the western world cares about aything then its own wealth. And all is accetpable inthe titles called democracy, freedom of speech or painting the other as terrorist. They lied in front of UN about Al Qaida, chemical weapons and Irac. What do we have to understand? They consume most energy in the world. They pollute more then any other world can achieve. They have the largest numbers in weapons... Yet we now suddenly have a treaty... And thank God USA and Israel are also not accepting it. Otherwise one would have heard the title axes of evil a lot earlier...

Having said that its not because of Western influence that one should stop using cluster bombs but a humanitarian reason, cluster bombs have been used and continue to be used but one has to take steps in the right direction, as time goes on technology is getting better and having more accurate weapons is the future.

Using Cluster bombs is a very blunt tool, it creates only more problems, it damages the landscpe for years to come. Cluster bomb is more dangerous than chemical weapons because chemical just kill and its over but cluster bombs kills even after 50 years of war ended and the casulties are civilians not soldiers.

[Sharif Smuggler]

WOW! Just watched some very cool videos of cluster bombs on youtube...glad Pakistan didnt sign the agreement!


111 nations, but not US, adopt cluster bomb treaty
By SHAWN POGATCHNIK, Associated Press Writer
Fri May 30, 6:00 PM ET


DUBLIN, Ireland - Chief negotiators of a landmark treaty banning cluster bombs predicted Friday that the United States will never again use the weapons, a critical component of American air and artillery power.

The treaty formally adopted Friday by 111 nations, including many of America's major NATO partners, would outlaw all current designs of cluster munitions and require destruction of stockpiles within eight years. It also opens the possibility that European allies could order U.S. bases located in their countries to remove cluster bombs from their stocks.

The United States and other leading cluster bomb makers — Russia, China, Israel, India and Pakistan — boycotted the talks, emphasized they would not sign the treaty and publicly shrugged off its value. All defended the overriding military value of cluster bombs, which carpet a battlefield with dozens to hundreds of explosions.

But treaty backers — who long have sought a ban because cluster bombs leave behind "duds" that later maim or kill civilians — insisted they had made it too politically painful for any country to use the weapons again.

"The country that thinks of using cluster munitions next week should think twice, because it would look very bad," said Espen Barth Eide, Deputy Defense Minister of Norway, which began the negotiations last year and will host a treaty-signing ceremony Dec. 3.

"We're certain that nations thinking of using cluster munitions won't want to face the international condemnation that will rain down upon them, because the weapons have been stigmatized now," said Steve Goose, arms control director of New York-based Human Rights Watch, who was involved in the talks.

However, the treaty envisions their future use — and offers legal protection to any signatory nation that finds itself operating alongside U.S. forces deploying cluster bombs, shells and rockets.

The treaty specifies — in what backers immediately dubbed "the American clause" — that members "may engage in military cooperation and operations" with a nation that rejects the treaty and "engages in activities prohibited" by the treaty.

It suggests that a treaty member could call in support from U.S. air power or artillery using cluster munitions, so long as the caller does not "expressly request the use of cluster munitions."   

The treaty also contains promises to mobilize international aid to cluster bomb-scarred lands such as southern Lebanon, where a 2006 war between the militant group Hezbollah and Israel left behind an estimated 1 million unexploded "bomblets."

The pact requires treaty members to aid explosives-clearance work and provide medical, training and other support to blast victims, their families and communities.

In Washington, State Department spokesman Tom Casey said the treaty would not change U.S. policy and cluster munitions remain "absolutely critical and essential" to U.S. military operations.

He said U.S. officials in the State and Defense departments were studying whether the treaty would eventually oblige American bases in Europe to withdraw cluster munitions.

Goose said this decision would be up to individual U.S. allies. The treaty, he noted, requires nations that ratify it to eliminate all cluster weapons within their "jurisdiction or control."

He said most NATO members were likely to conclude that U.S. bases were operating under their jurisdiction and order U.S. cluster munitions to be removed or destroyed, while Germany and Japan were most likely to permit the weapons stocks to remain.

U.S. defense analysts said the treaty drafters do not appreciate the importance that the world's most powerful militaries place on cluster munitions. They doubted that the treaty would force any American retreat on the matter, noting that a majority of U.S. artillery shells use cluster technology.

"This is a treaty drafted largely by countries which do not fight wars," said John Pike, a defense analyst and director of GlobalSecurity.org.

"Treaties like this make me want to barf. It's so irrelevant. Completely feel-good," he said.

Asked whether U.S. forces would ever ban or restrict cluster-bomb technology, Pike said, "It's not gonna happen. Our military is in the business of winning wars and using the most effective weapons to do so."

Ivan Oelrich, vice president for strategic security programs at the Federation of American Scientists in Washington, said he expected U.S. forces to keep using shells, rockets and bombs that break apart into smaller explosive objects because they have 10 times or more killing power than traditional munitions, particularly against troops in exposed terrain or in foxholes.

Government and military spokesmen in other cluster bomb-defending nations were similarly dismissive of the treaty.

"Russia will not ban cluster bombs and land mines," Lt. Gen. Yevgeny Buzhinsky said earlier this week in Moscow. "We stand for evolutionary development of these weapons. Russia's Defense Ministry objects to radical and prohibitive measures of this kind."

The treaty spells out future requirements for legal cluster weapons.

Each would have to contain no more than nine weapons inside, known formally as "submunitions." Each submunition must weigh at least 8.8 pounds, or four kilograms, have technology that allows it to identify a specific human or armored target, and contain electronic fail-safes to ensure that any duds cannot detonate later.

Patricia Lewis, director of the U.N. Institute for Disarmament Research, said the weight rule represented "a very neat and clever way of closing off a loophole."

"In the future, things weighing less than four kilograms could be designed that would give a large explosive impact, so the idea is to prevent future developments," Lewis told reporters in Geneva, Switzerland.

But U.S. analysts derided the conditions as illogical.

Both Oelrich and Pike said it would be technically possible to design new cluster munitions that meet all of the treaty's criteria — but questioned why the treaty sought to limit the number of devices per shell, rocket or bomb.

Oelrich said the treaty's insistence on electronic fail-safes ignored the possibility of producing submunitions encased in metals that rapidly deteriorate when exposed to sun or moisture, depending on the theater of war.

"I don't see the point of the `nine' thing," Oelrich said. "What difference does it make how you package the submunition? What matters is the performance of the submunition on the ground. And nobody in any military wants duds."

Pike said if other countries insist on shells, rockets and bombs that contain no more than nine submunitions each, the military logic would be inescapable.

"It would just mean I'm going to have to shoot more of them!" he said with a laugh.

[Sharif Smuggler]

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hi4QQ1...BJhfeseZmbLvvNA


Observers laud cluster bomb ban but questions remain
May 29, 2008

DUBLIN (AFP) — A landmark convention banning cluster bombs was welcomed by politicians and campaigners Thursday but some questioned its worth without backing from key powers like the United States, China and Russia.

After 10 days of painstaking negotiations at Croke Park stadium in Dublin, diplomats from 111 countries agreed Wednesday the wording of a pact to outlaw the use, production, transfer and stockpiling of cluster munitions.

Norway, which led the initiative, insisted the treaty would stigmatise the use of cluster bombs and could not be ignored by those countries keeping their stockpiles.

"It would have been better if they were all here but the approach we have chosen is the realistic approach and it was not realistic to have them here," Norwegian Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere told AFP.

"We have an ambitious result. I believe this has a norm-setting function.

"If the purpose is to win hearts and minds, do you win hearts and minds by not distinguishing between a military target and civilians?"

He said the text would have been better had the world's major producers and users of cluster bombs attended.

"But would the world be better off if we dropped the whole thing because they are not here? The answer is no. They are bound to notice what we are saying."

The treaty is due to be signed in Oslo on December 2-3.

British newspaper The Independent said the agreement should be seen as a step forward rather than the "final destination".

"The most glaring problem is that the United States, China, Russia, Pakistan, India and Israel have not signed the treaty," it said in its editorial.

"If the largest militaries on the planet refuse to curb their stockpiles of these weapons, what real good can it do?"

Cluster munitions are among the weapons posing the gravest dangers to civilians, especially in heavily bombed countries like Laos, Vietnam and Afghanistan.

Dropped from planes or fired from artillery, they explode in mid-air, randomly scattering bomblets. Countries are seeking a ban due to the risk of civilians being killed or maimed by their indiscriminate, wide area effect.

They also pose a lasting threat to civilians as many bomblets fail to explode on impact.

The treaty requires the destruction of stockpiled munitions within eight years -- though it leaves the door open for future, more precise generations of cluster munitions that pose less harm to civilians.

British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, who agreed to scrap cluster bombs shortly before the deal was reached, said the treaty would be "a major breakthrough".

Pakistan, one of the countries which did not take part, said it was involved in another negotiation under the UN.

"Our concerns are both humanitarian and on security. We will consider the matter when our concerns are addressed," foreign office spokesman Mohammad Sadiq told AFP.

The treaty was welcomed by the Cluster Munition Coalition (CMC), an umbrella group of non-governmental organisations, which hopes it will stigmatise cluster munitions.

CMC co-chair Simon Conway told AFP the treaty was a compromise but nonetheless "incredibly strong".

"We're going to end up with a strong treaty that prohibits every cluster bomb that's ever been used, with no transition periods, with strong obligations on clearance and particularly strong obligations on victim assistance," he said.

The cluster munitions ban process, started by Norway in February 2007, took the same path as the 1997 Ottawa Treaty on landmines by going outside the United Nations to avoid vetoes and seal a swift pact.

[crazyinsane105]

Having said that its not because of Western influence that one should stop using cluster bombs but a humanitarian reason, cluster bombs have been used and continue to be used but one has to take steps in the right direction, as time goes on technology is getting better and having more accurate weapons is the future.

Using Cluster bombs is a very blunt tool, it creates only more problems, it damages the landscpe for years to come. Cluster bomb is more dangerous than chemical weapons because chemical just kill and its over but cluster bombs kills even after 50 years of war ended and the casulties are civilians not soldiers.

Newer cluster bombs are equipped with two or three detonators that make it much more likely it will go off within minutes of impact and not be left on the battlefield for years. Without cluster munitions, our MRLS are pretty much useless, and there are very few efficient ways to damage/destroy large numbers of armored vehicles that are beyond the range of self propelled artillery power. Even countries like the US, which have almost an infinite supply of laser guided and GPS bombs, prefer using cluster munitions against massed armored and troop positions. Its not because the US wants to leave cluster munitions on the battlefield (doesn't make sense if they are keen on occupying that very country), but there aren't too many other options that are at hand. Now when you ask a country like Pakistan to not make or keep cluster munitions, that doesn't make too much sense. Yes, cluster munitions are a very blunt tool, but Pakistan is probably going to be one of the few countries on this planet that will ever have to face thousands of armored vehicles lined up against the border. One of the most efficient ways on tackling this threat is by use of cluster munitions. Other options are simply too expensive or very unreasonable.

[airomerix]

Grow up, and who are you the official spokesman for the Pakistan military, if anyone is misguided its you, cluster bombs killed more people since conflict ended than in conflict itself first go and learn something before opeing your big mouth and making a fool of yourself.

Have you ever heard of smart bombs, more accurate than ever with minimal collateral damage and what kind of stuipid example are u using? who in the right mind is going to role out 100 tanks with no air cover get back to your playstation.

If you had seen what cluter bombs to do children you wouldnt be acting so immature ok for you sitting at home advocating thier use.

Lol still u cant prove your self. Ever heard about the 1965 Indo Pak war. India rolled out hundreds of tanks in a single combat deployment and that deployment was the biggest after the World War 2!!!

Where as if u are sooo worried about the children then i think u should make a SMART BOMB yourself which will deny to hit any civilian/child.
Where as first go n learn which type of bombs are called smart. Give any God damn example abt that type. U hav juss heard in any movie or stuff n now u are trying to tell us that SMART BOMBS exist. YES they do exist but unless u dont have any information about them, till then SHUT UP!

Do u know JDAMs are called smart bombs, WHY??? they dont kill civilians thats y???? NO!!! cuz they leave nothing in the surroundings thats y!!
Where as that tank example was just a perfect. It is ur cowardice that u are not accepting it.

N YEAH "EVERY THING IS FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR" soo killing of children really doesnt matter if we look frm the agresseors point of view!!

BONE HEAD!!!

[aziqbal]

Lol still u cant prove your self. Ever heard about the 1965 Indo Pak war. India rolled out hundreds of tanks in a single combat deployment and that deployment was the biggest after the World War 2!!!

Where as if u are sooo worried about the children then i think u should make a SMART BOMB yourself which will deny to hit any civilian/child.
Where as first go n learn which type of bombs are called smart. Give any God damn example abt that type. U hav juss heard in any movie or stuff n now u are trying to tell us that SMART BOMBS exist. YES they do exist but unless u dont have any information about them, till then SHUT UP!

Do u know JDAMs are called smart bombs, WHY??? they dont kill civilians thats y???? NO!!! cuz they leave nothing in the surroundings thats y!!
Where as that tank example was just a perfect. It is ur cowardice that u are not accepting it.

N YEAH "EVERY THING IS FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR" soo killing of children really doesnt matter if we look frm the agresseors point of view!!

BONE HEAD!!!

Did you get bullied again today at school?

Read through your post again and ask yourself the quetsion how old are u? because your english is terrible and as usual ur rants are getting less and less amusing with no logic, a smart bomb is smart and you are not so stop making a fool of yourself and and trying to get attension and get back to your playstation like good little boy and pi$$ off.

[airomerix]

Did you get bullied again today at school?

Read through your post again and ask yourself the quetsion how old are u? because your english is terrible and as usual ur rants are getting less and less amusing with no logic, a smart bomb is smart and you are not so stop making a fool of yourself and and trying to get attension and get back to your playstation like good little boy and pi$$ off.

Lol haha keep on reacting like a good butterfly.

Ur busted Mr.!!!

[Munir]

Having said that its not because of Western influence that one should stop using cluster bombs but a humanitarian reason, cluster bombs have been used and continue to be used but one has to take steps in the right direction, as time goes on technology is getting better and having more accurate weapons is the future.

Using Cluster bombs is a very blunt tool, it creates only more problems, it damages the landscpe for years to come. Cluster bomb is more dangerous than chemical weapons because chemical just kill and its over but cluster bombs kills even after 50 years of war ended and the casulties are civilians not soldiers.

If certain "terrorist" groups attack you village and kill all habitants then let me remind you hat they could have been elinated by clusters... Would you still select the same vision? In war there is no right or wrong. You kill or get killed... It is never humane nor worth to be discussed.

[airomerix]

If certain "terrorist" groups attack you village and kill all habitants then let me remind you hat they could have been elinated by clusters... Would you still select the same vision? In war there is no right or wrong. You kill or get killed... It is never humane nor worth to be discussed.

U know azi iqbal is making a bomb which will deny to kill any civilian and children. Cuz they are innocent.

[aziqbal]

U know azi iqbal is making a bomb which will deny to kill any civilian and children. Cuz they are innocent.

And I am making one which will specifically target the likes of you.

[dargay]

Good decision by Pakistan. We have a very volatile and hostile internal and external environment and need every weapon we can have.

Countries like Switzerland, Sweden and Peru have the luxury of outlawing weapons, we dont.

[airomerix]

And I am making one which will specifically target the likes of you.

The likes of me, ATLEAST NOT ME!!! and yeah watch ur head. My cluster bombs are ready!!!

[Yahya]

fcuk the treaty, the americans are signatories yet they used the cluster bombs in both iraq and afghanistan