23 replies to this topic

[Dizasta]

On december 7 - 2006, PAF announced the procurement of Saab Ericsson - Erieye AEW System. Around that time, PAF also showed interest in the Y-8 AEW platform. Also, in the same space of time, it also requested United States, for the P-3 Hawkeye-2000 AEW platform. It showed an indication towards something which could enable PA, PAF & PN Inter-Operabliity by creating a Net-Centric 'Iron Triad'. This would allow all PA, PAF & PN assets a more responsive ability, with the power to respond to threats with a very quick reaction time.

Examples of these can be found in both US armed forces as well as the UK armed forces. In the US case, the 'triad' revolves around the E-3C Sentry, RC-135 Rivet Joint & the E-8C JStars. A cumalitive intelligence gathering, surveillance which is shared in near real-time. In the UK case, the 'triad' is based on E-3D Sentry, MR4 Nimrod and the R-1 Sentinel. And then there are the Brazilians, who have introduced a capable combination in the shape of EMB-145 Erieyes, EMB-145 RS/AGS & R-99s.

Ofcourse, we're no where near the capability that these militaries have. However, the recent interest shown, gives indication toward assembling this capability. But since PAF has been AEW hunting lately, it would be a good time to assess viable AGS (Airborne Ground Surveillance) platforms, as we have non so far. P-3C Orions are already being aquired to enable PN relaying target information to other platforms which would re-direct suitable weopon systems to destroy the targets.

There are platforms available to us, but it would require some looking into. Although it is assumed that PAF was showing interest in the Y-8 KLJ-2000 (Rotodome) & KLJ-200 (Balance Beam), both are however, AEW platforms. But there is also another configuration that Y-8s offer, and that is the BattleField Surveillance Management platform. Eventhough there isn't much information available to assess the capability of this platform, it still is a viable option that we can avail and one which PAF may have been actually interested in.


Y-8 Battlefield Surveillance (to track ground targets)

Another platform, which is available to us, is the EMB-145 RS/AGS Ground Surveillance platform. Eventhough we have no indication that PAF was looking this. There is a possibility that this platform could be a real option. The EMB-145 RS/AGS is a very capable platform which would easily mesh with PAF's Saab Ericsson - Erieye. As record has it, Embraer is already offering the Erieye on the EMB-145 aircraft.


EMB-145 RS/AGS Ground Surveillance

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Pakistan, with its current ongoing requirements, would be capable of dealing with any intrusion into its airspace, land-space and maritime territorial waters, if it has an ISR Net-Centric capability. With the current purchases of AEWs, ASW platforms in the shape of Erieyes and Orions, it would be the right time to look for AGS platform which would enable Pakistan to form a rock solid 'Iron Triad' that would have near real-time net-working capability, with remote sensors.

Having AH-1W/F Cobra gunship helicopters, F-16 Fighting Falcons and MRTP 33 patrol boats, would sure look good as a potent force to deal with any threat that is out there. But if these weapons don't know who their target is, how would one expect them to eliminate the threat. For this reason alone, i have brought about this subject to discuss the different platforms and their capabilities, plus their feasibility to integrate with other platforms which Pakistan is about to aquire.

Currently we are (at least to my knowledge) without a proper ELINT/SIGINT platform which would be able to operate with the Erieyes and Orions. The Embraer, EMB-145 RS/AGS would be an ideal choice for such capability. This would allow an enormous advantage to PA, PAF & PN to track movements of any foreign elements within its territory or on the border. Target specifics would be able to be relayed on to platforms such as the Cobras, Vipers, MRTPs and etc. An punch in Pakistan's armor, when it is fighting a crucial war on terror!









Warning: Mods, a request, if you see any rat-indian on this topic, eliminate him!

[Saqr]

Though the EMB-145 RS/AGS would be ideal, if the Pakistani Forces were indeed looking into such a system - it is very likely that it'll come from China.  Given that the PAF will procure a Chinese AEW system, presumably with a Chinese platform, the logical step would be to procure the capability with the same platform.  IIRC the reasoning behind procuring the Chinese AEW was to not only have a non-Western source, but also allow Pakistan to access and improve the technology on its own - or rather without many issues from suppliers.  

Still at this point we do not know the exact system nor the platform, for all we know it could be an AESA type on an IL-76...a Phalcon-Gulfstream like system on the new Chinese passenger jet (ARJ-21)...or a variant of the Y-8 AEW.  There are loads of variables now to consider what kind of things Pakistan is seeking from China.  

IMO ARJ21 based AESA AEW; as well as a battlefield surveillance and management; and electronic intelligence gathering would be ideal.

[aziqbal]

China and Pakistan are full of surprises these days.  So who knows, if and when PAF procures a battlefield surveillance system from China, it would be based on the same aircraft.

Very true, before in 2 decades we never took on new jet today F16s, JF17 and J10s are coming in and it not only the airforce!

[Dizasta]

The Y-8 Battlefield Surveillance aircraft capability comes from the KZ800 ELINT system. The KZ800 is a computerised airborne ELINT system designed to detect, analyse, and locate enemy ship-/land-based radar emitting signal within the frequency range of 1.0~18.0 GHz. Also equipping this platform is the Airborne X-band mono-polarisation SAR system, which would also help Pakistan in monitoring flood build-up activity to react quickly on immenent floods. A more capable KE800 ELINT systems is also an option that can be availed on the Y-8 platform.

On the other hand, the Embraer EMB-145 RS/AGS is equipped with a McDonald Dettwiler Integrated Radar Imaging System (IRIS), a synthetic aperture radar housed in an under-fuselage radome, a FLIR Systems AAQ-22 StarSafire forward-looking infra-red (FLIR), a Geophysical & Environmental Research (GER) multi-spectral scanner, COMINT and ELINT systems and various on-board items of recording and processing equipment. This platform is built to retain conformal datalink with the Ericsson Erieye.

Compatibility of such a system with the Erieyes could be resolved by the Chinese and Pakistani experts. But the fact remains that currently Pakistan has no dedicated ELINT/SIGINT platform deployed. Such a platform is a vital tool in our efforts fighting the war on terror. As for AESA type radar, yes it would indeed be a good choice for an Chinese version of an AEW platform, however it wouldn't fulfill the gap left by the absence of a good ground surveillance, intelligence gathering system.

[Saqr]

The Y-8 Battlefield Surveillance aircraft capability comes from the KZ800 ELINT system. The KZ800 is a computerised airborne ELINT system designed to detect, analyse, and locate enemy ship-/land-based radar emitting signal within the frequency range of 1.0~18.0 GHz. Compatibility of such a system with the Erieyes could be resolved by the Chinese and Pakistani experts. But the fact remains that currently Pakistan has no dedicated ELINT/SIGINT platform deployed. Such a platform is a vital tool in our efforts fighting the war on terror. As for AESA type radar, yes it would indeed be a good choice for an Chinese version of an AEW platform, however it wouldn't fulfill the gap left by the absence of a good ground surveillance, intelligence gathering system.

Very true, that's why I think there should be much greater initiative by Pakistan to seek Chinese technology with regards to AEW, ELINT/SIGINT, battlefield surveillance & management aircraft.  Initial reason of course easier negotiation, technical and financial process.  However joining with the Chinese would allow us to learn from them about the platform, technology and allow us to have our requirements met at a higher yield.  When we're inducting platforms like Erieye and hopefully Hawkeye 2000, our personnel will be very busy - so the time frame for the Chinese AEW might be later.  I think now Pakistan is pursuing new-generation systems from China - the relatively longer time-frames as well as lack of finalization of deals are indicative of that.  

Right now it appears that ELINT/SIGINT systems are still in development in China, and our forces will also be very busy with our own modernization.  IMO A good solution would be to standardize on a single modern platform - such as ARJ21 - and with it produce an AESA-based AEW&C aircraft similar to the Phalcon-Gulfstream, a ELINT/SIGINT aircraft and a battlefield management, surveillance and C2 aircraft like JSTARS.

[Dizasta]

Here's a look at the EMB-145 RS/AGS platform:

EMB 145 RS/AGS

The EMB 145 RS/AGS is an advanced Airborne Ground Surveillance and Intelligence aircraft capable of providing real-time and near real-time imagery and signal intelligence over ground objectives. It is equipped with an extensive sensor suite ranging from highperformance synthetic aperture radar to electro-optical sensors, in addition to communications and electronic exploitation systems capable of gathering complete intelligence information.

The EMB 145 RS/AGS was developed to map survey and monitor 5.2 million Sq.Km of the Amazon basin, one of the most severe environments in the world.

Imagery data collection missions are performed with RF, E/O and IR sensors. The SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) is a day/night and all weather multi mode sensor. With its dual band, is equipped with polarametric and interferometric capabilities that give the imagery analysts multiple responses from the same scene. Using a combination of responsive aircraft performance and high data processing ability, the SAR allows imagery generation over vast ground areas in a short period of time. Additionally, the MTI capability allows this sensor to detect and track any moving target at low speed on the ground or on rivers.

The electro-optical sensor is a multi-spectral scanner capable of acquiring imagery from the visible to the thermal IR spectrum. The FLIR system completes the set of imagery sensors. The collected images can be either processed in real-time or recorded to be processed and analyzed on the ground.

Equipped with high sensitivity SIGINT (SIGnal INTelligence) systems, the EMB 145 RS/AGS is also capable of monitoring and locate electromagnetic signal sources at very long distances. All data acquired by the on-board sensors are transmitted in real-time to ground stations through an advanced wide-band data link system. On the ground, the collected images and SIGINT data are analyzed and fused to produce an integrated intelligence report.

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The EMB 145 RS/AGS was developed to map survey and monitor 5.2 million Sq.Km of the Amazon basin, one of the most severe environments in the world.

As far as information goes, Pakistan does have anywhere near that technology to map its terrain. The ability to map terrain and gather valuable geological data, allows PA, PAF & PN to operate with significant ease. RS/AGS datalinked to the Erieye would ensure tracking of enemy targets on the ground moving from the mountain region of Waziristan and Chagai Hills.

[safdar]

All those airborne tactical platforms are used to aid in the projection of full spectrum dominance by combining land, air, sea and space based assets with real time situational awareness and are primarily for USA/Israel and western doctrine of  NCW (Network Centric Warfare). As USA is very adverse in attacking a state army in a conventional sense………anyway!  AWACS (Airborne warning and control system) is just a single component of NCW, we must understand first from the NCW doctrine of USA/Israel that, it is a attacking platform away from home grounds and on enemy territories, hence the requirement of AWACS is paramount for NCW. And on that note Pakistan does not require an elaborate airborne command and control network if its to defend its own territories and not much plans for an attack hundreds of miles away from its own C4i command and control HQ.  

Since we are talking about defending only Pakistani land sea and air, much emphasis should be put on land based intelligence communication head quarters, something similar to what the British established in 2003 as GCHQ. Within this department (working autonomously to MI5/MI6) GCHQ is involved in computer architecture,communications,networking and electronic engineering, to gather intelligence and information and providing ELINT/SIGINT data prior to a conflict.
  
As Pakistan has moved in the right direction with C4i. If we look at the some of the sensors operated in C4i.    

many different radars as part of its layered air defences system.

TRS-2215 and TRS-2230 (mobile and fixed by Thomson-CSF of France),
AN/TPS-43 and AN/FPS-100 radars from Westinghouse of the USA.
Giraffe air defence radars from Ericsson of Sweden.

Some of the older systems include:  

US-made FPS-89/100 and AR-1/15.
Chinese Type-514.
German Siemans MPDR 45/E.
Condor radars from UK.

These are the recent purchases of PAK.

6 AN/TPS-77 land-based 3D radars.
6 YLC-2 land-based 3D radars.
10 YLC-6 land-based 2D radars.
Intention to procure VERA or Passive Radar System.

AWC (air weapons complex) has also developed Mobile Command and Control Centres for Forward Area Air Defence Command and Control Operations, which altogether reduces the number of AWACS in air.


But we still require some AWACS even to defend our own territories. Why?

Most of the C4i sensors are to track airborne threats, none could actually track ground/sea moving targets over the horizon, we also don’t have any spy satellites. Yet! and that should be our main concern.

We could now eliminate certain AWACS systems as unnecessary to our requirements. What Pakistan needs is sensors in the sky, which could also provide interdiction, reconnaissance, airlift and close-air support for friendly ground forces, but not exactly elaborate command and control post.  

The first option is to have AESA radar that could track ground movements (armour columns), also radars for ground mapping (synthetic aperture radar) which are ideal for search & rescue operations. Erieye AEWC Ericsson of Sweden is a phased-array pulse-Doppler radar based on the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) System, SAAB-2000 provides both these systems (I believe the ground mapping radar was being developed some time back and it should be available to PAK). The Saab 2000-Erieye can aid close air-support for ground/air fighter/bombers and reconnaissance.

saab 340, saab 2000 is a stretch version of 340
Hawkeye
P-3 orion
P-3 Orion weapons  
P-3 AN/APS-145 radar , this is what Pakistan wants.

for PN (pak navy) long range radars to track over sea, for that AESA is not required since there not much clutter over sea and no other radar in the world has greater range then AN/APS-145 radar for Hawkeye-2000 AEW on the P-3 Orion aircrafts for PN. This system can also provide a command & control post in air as its is the only safest option over sea, even in peace times. The P-3C Orion provides ASW (anti-submarine warfare) for the USA navy and provision for harpoons missiles, it could be possible to have these weapons bays still installed in the P-3 aircrafts.  (not sure about that thou its just pure wishful thinking! But it can be rigged to carry external weapons). However the combination of Hawkeye AEW radar on the P-3 aircrafts is one of the most best combinations that Pak Navy has thought about, an interdiction role aircraft with a potent radar system that could track even small patrol boats over sea at very long ranges.  

Those two systems are the most ideal platforms that Pakistan could deploy with existing ground based OTH (over the horizon) radars and easily integrated with the C4i system, which is no doubt based on the USA hardware/software architecture.    

If we are to look at Chinese systems then, are they Interoperable with Pakistan’s existing C4i network? Or will they be just stand alone platforms only for the airforce or navy?

The Russian  Ilyushin-76 long range transport aircraft for Chinese AWACS with Phalcon radar systems is far too big for Pakistan to consider as an AWACS in Pakistani airspace and does not provide much but instead could hinder operations further as it would require constant fighter escorts during war times and huge maintenance costs, it would provide excellent coverage over the 100 mile strait between Taiwan and china, for China, but again it is for long range command & control rather then home based defence. It could play a similar role to the P-3 Orion’s over sea for PN as long as it has interdiction roles (carry some weapons) and capable radar as the AN/APS-145 that could track 2000 targets.  

The difference between the Brazilian EMB-145 and Saab ERIEYE is only the aircraft, the SAAB-2000 by far outperforms the Brazilian Embarear R-99, yet the EMB-145 does have SAR radar for ground mapping , a must have for PAF ground bombing roles in war times.  

The options for PAF and PN are as this, Navy AWACS should have long range radars and have interdiction roles (carry some weapons) and airforce roles will require smaller fatser AWACS with ground tracking capability.

[Dizasta]

All those airborne tactical platforms are used to aid in the projection of full spectrum dominance by combining land, air, sea and space based assets with real time situational awareness and are primarily for USA/Israel and western doctrine of  NCW (Network Centric Warfare). As USA is very adverse in attacking a state army in a conventional sense………anyway!  AWACS (Airborne warning and control system) is just a single component of NCW, we must understand first from the NCW doctrine of USA/Israel that, it is a attacking platform away from home grounds and on enemy territories, hence the requirement of AWACS is paramount for NCW. And on that note Pakistan does not require an elaborate airborne command and control network if its to defend its own territories and not much plans for an attack hundreds of miles away from its own C4i command and control HQ.  

Since we are talking about defending only Pakistani land sea and air, much emphasis should be put on land based intelligence communication head quarters, something similar to what the British established in 2003 as GCHQ. Within this department (working autonomously to MI5/MI6) GCHQ is involved in computer architecture,communications,networking and electronic engineering, to gather intelligence and information and providing ELINT/SIGINT data prior to a conflict.
  
As Pakistan has moved in the right direction with C4i. If we look at the some of the sensors operated in C4i.    

many different radars as part of its layered air defences system.

TRS-2215 and TRS-2230 (mobile and fixed by Thomson-CSF of France),
AN/TPS-43 and AN/FPS-100 radars from Westinghouse of the USA.
Giraffe air defence radars from Ericsson of Sweden.

Some of the older systems include:  

US-made FPS-89/100 and AR-1/15.
Chinese Type-514.
German Siemans MPDR 45/E.
Condor radars from UK.

These are the recent purchases of PAK.

6 AN/TPS-77 land-based 3D radars.
6 YLC-2 land-based 3D radars.
10 YLC-6 land-based 2D radars.
Intention to procure VERA or Passive Radar System.

AWC (air weapons complex) has also developed Mobile Command and Control Centres for Forward Area Air Defence Command and Control Operations, which altogether reduces the number of AWACS in air.


But we still require some AWACS even to defend our own territories. Why?

Most of the C4i sensors are to track airborne threats, none could actually track ground/sea moving targets over the horizon, we also don’t have any spy satellites. Yet! and that should be our main concern.

We could now eliminate certain AWACS systems as unnecessary to our requirements. What Pakistan needs is sensors in the sky, which could also provide interdiction, reconnaissance, airlift and close-air support for friendly ground forces, but not exactly elaborate command and control post.  

The first option is to have AESA radar that could track ground movements (armour columns), also radars for ground mapping (synthetic aperture radar) which are ideal for search & rescue operations. Erieye AEWC Ericsson of Sweden is a phased-array pulse-Doppler radar based on the Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) System, SAAB-2000 provides both these systems (I believe the ground mapping radar was being developed some time back and it should be available to PAK). The Saab 2000-Erieye can aid close air-support for ground/air fighter/bombers and reconnaissance.

saab 340, saab 2000 is a stretch version of 340
Hawkeye
P-3 orion
P-3 Orion weapons  
P-3 AN/APS-145 radar , this is what Pakistan wants.

for PN (pak navy) long range radars to track over sea, for that AESA is not required since there not much clutter over sea and no other radar in the world has greater range then AN/APS-145 radar for Hawkeye-2000 AEW on the P-3 Orion aircrafts for PN. This system can also provide a command & control post in air as its is the only safest option over sea, even in peace times. The P-3C Orion provides ASW (anti-submarine warfare) for the USA navy and provision for harpoons missiles, it could be possible to have these weapons bays still installed in the P-3 aircrafts.  (not sure about that thou its just pure wishful thinking! But it can be rigged to carry external weapons). However the combination of Hawkeye AEW radar on the P-3 aircrafts is one of the most best combinations that Pak Navy has thought about, an interdiction role aircraft with a potent radar system that could track even small patrol boats over sea at very long ranges.  

Those two systems are the most ideal platforms that Pakistan could deploy with existing ground based OTH (over the horizon) radars and easily integrated with the C4i system, which is no doubt based on the USA hardware/software architecture.    

If we are to look at Chinese systems then, are they Interoperable with Pakistan’s existing C4i network? Or will they be just stand alone platforms only for the airforce or navy?

The Russian  Ilyushin-76 long range transport aircraft for Chinese AWACS with Phalcon radar systems is far too big for Pakistan to consider as an AWACS in Pakistani airspace and does not provide much but instead could hinder operations further as it would require constant fighter escorts during war times and huge maintenance costs, it would provide excellent coverage over the 100 mile strait between Taiwan and china, for China, but again it is for long range command & control rather then home based defence. It could play a similar role to the P-3 Orion’s over sea for PN as long as it has interdiction roles (carry some weapons) and capable radar as the AN/APS-145 that could track 2000 targets.  

The difference between the Brazilian EMB-145 and Saab ERIEYE is only the aircraft, the SAAB-2000 by far outperforms the Brazilian Embarear R-99, yet the EMB-145 does have SAR radar for ground mapping , a must have for PAF ground bombing roles in war times.  

The options for PAF and PN are as this, Navy AWACS should have long range radars and have interdiction roles (carry some weapons) and airforce roles will require smaller fatser AWACS with ground tracking capability.

The EMB-145 RS(Remote Sensing)/AGS(Air-to-Ground Surveillance) ground mapping capability allows for monitoring flood activity in the country as well. Something that GoP would also be looking into as well as PAF for a broader coverage of the borders. Monitoring movements which can coordinate with troops on the ground and air assets such as the AH-1F/W Cobras. This would help plug in gaps through which foreign elements tend to sneak into Pakistan.

[Dizasta]

Embraer is also developing an Airborne Remote Sensing version that employs the same airframe but outfitted with different mission sensors. Designated EMB-145 RS, three of these aircraft systems were also ordered for the SIVAM Project.

The EMB 145 RS/AGS is an advanced asset capable of providing real-time and near real-time imagery and electronic intelligence over ground objectives. It’s equipped with an extensive sensor suite ranging from a high-performance Synthetic Aperture Radar to Electro-Optical and Multi-Spectral sensors in addition to communications and electronic exploitation systems. It’s capable of reaching operating areas and altitudes in a very short time. The EMB 145 RS/AGS is another member of the successful family of Intelligence, Reconnaissance and Surveillance aircraft based on Embraer’s regional ERJ 145 jet. One of the world’s most advanced and powerful Remote Sensing aircraft currently available.

The P 99 is the new generation aircraft for missions ranging from Maritime Patrol up to complex and demanding Anti-Surface/Submarine operations, which require the capability to employ an extensive array os smart/conventional weapons. Equipped with latest generation mission systems, it allows easy and precise collection and analysis of intelligence data in real time at high operational altitudes, covering a wide area in a noiseless operation scenario. The crew’s working environment is enhanced by a state-of-the-art human-machine interface that ensures valuable mission performance. The P 99 is another member of the successful family of Intelligence, Reconnaissance and Surveillance aircraft based on the Embraer’s regional ERJ 145 jet.

Embraer produced for the Sivam Project three aircraft of remote sensoriamento (R99-B) and five of aerial monitoring (R99-A). Aircraft R99-A, equipped with radars of Swedish origin, called Erieye, will allow that the Embraer enters in the select group of international companies who withhold this technology. Also aircraft R99-B are equipped with radars of synthetic opening, multispectral sensors in the band optics and infra-red ray and sensors of infra red monitoring (OIS) constitute in the great technological innovation.

One of aircraft R99-A passed tests 22-24 May 2002 in the area of Manaus. The first aircraft of aerial monitoring - called R99A for the BAF - carried through experimental flights in Manaus to test its contact with the Amazonian climate and to display the radar (installed in the aircraft) to the heat and the humidity of the region, as well as testing the ways of enlace datalink.

All the construction of the equipment in the airplanes was followed by Brazilian military. The aircraft of the Sivam have very advanced software of technology, for this reason, were necessary a course of three years for all pilots who go to operate these aircraft. Today they are capable to command alone, without foreign interference.

In June 2002 the test with aircraft R99-B was initiated, of remote sensors. This airplane is responsible for the biggest qualitative jump given by Brazil in the monitoring of extensive areas and incorporates what it has of more modern in technology of ambient monitoring. They had been tested the radar of synthetic opening, the multispectral sensors in the band optics and infra-red ray and sensors of infra red monitoring (OIS).

On 24 July 2002, the BAF received from the Embraer the three first aircraft of the Sivam. The ceremony of baptism and delivery of the airplanes that go to watch the airspace and the Amazonian forest was explendorosa. They are most modern and they have sophisticated platforms of aerial job, with simultaneous applications in the areas civil and military, absolutely unknown in its category. By the beginning of 2003, the Air Force had one aircraft of remote sensoriamento and four of aerial monitoring.

Located in the center of the Country, the Air base of Anápolis (BAAN) is strategical base of the Air Force and is sheltering these aircraft. Squadron As the Hárpia squadron of the Sixth Group of Aviation (2º/6º GAv) go to fulfill the activities of the aircraft.

Looking at the model which BAF (Brazilian Air Force) has developed, it reflects the exact need of PAF (Pakistan Air Force). Given the fact that the ERJ-145 RS/AGS is data linked to the EMB-145 Erieye, the AGS platform would be an ideal choice to go for in forming the 'Iron Triad' of AEW/AGS/ASW that'd allow PAF to have a full spectrum coverage of its territory. These platforms along with the new American TPS radars enable PAF unmatched vigilance.

[Dizasta]

The RS/AGS specifications:

The equipment works in the band “L” that allow to remove the interference of the floresta, and in the band “X” that 3D of greater definition allows to images. The reach of this radar is of 20Km (greater resolution 3D with error of 3 meters) 120Km (what it implies an inferior resolution, with error of 18 meters) a radar of synthetic opening, is a normal radar, adapted to allow through software to join several consecutive readings of the target, to the length of a determined space (Some kilometers for example) as it were a radar with several kilometers of length. These consecutive readings of radar, give to the system the capacity to create images 3D of high resolution, that allow to identify the contours of buildings, vehicles and equipment, a safe distance.

Greater definition would enable PAF to track ground targets such as foreign elements trying to enter Pakistan or track their movements in order launch an ambush to thwart their activities in territory.

This type of radar, is installed on board of the airplanes nonmanned “Predator” that are going to allow to the Air Force of the United States a knowledge and identification of the much greater battlefield, next to the targets and without the risk of losses. The radars of Synthetic Opening, also are used by the interplanetary soundings of operation that go Mars or Venus, that creates images 3D of a planet, carrying out continuous readings during their orbits.

This paragraph is referring to the now defunct Aerial Common Sensor (ACS) programme launched by the US Army & Navy. The project was cancelled in January 2006.

This information 3D is in ERJ-145 RS/AGS complemented with sensors that can accurately determine the location of a target and between those is the Star Safire, a system FLIR (Forward Looking infra-Network) that is a small tower (with the weight approximated of 50Kg) that is by low the airplane, approximately recess of the cabin of pilotagem. This device, is able “to see” objects or targets with infrared aid (detecting it the emitted heat and allowing night vision) and has a laser telemeter (to rangefinder) that allows to determine the range of the target with a precision of 5 meters, a distance of until 20Km.

Again, a unique capability which would give PAF the same ability to track movements like the USAF with its Predator drones.

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Question rises, if China has or can put such a capability as well. I would like to see if our Chinese members may have something to contribute to this topic with shedding some light on the Y-8 Ground Surveillance variant.

[safdar]

The EMB-145 RS(Remote Sensing)/AGS(Air-to-Ground Surveillance) ground mapping capability allows for monitoring flood activity in the country as well. Something that GoP would also be looking into as well as PAF for a broader coverage of the borders. Monitoring movements which can coordinate with troops on the ground and air assets such as the AH-1F/W Cobras. This would help plug in gaps through which foreign elements tend to sneak into Pakistan.

Yes. The SAR (synthetic aperture radar) gives the EMB-145 RS (which is different setup to the EMB-145) exceptional advantage over the Saab ERIEYE for ground surveillance, but one thing should be understood that this system is specifically for Brazil to survey the Amazon basin, basically lots of environmental protection systems are installed for that specific purpose. This system could be used in Pakistan for crop conditions, air pollution data, search and rescue options in peace times and ground tracking in war times but it can not provide air surveillance and pass vector data for interception by fighters for that EMB-145 will be required. I think Sweden was working on a SAR system on the SAAB ERIEYE, but not much info is available, most posts on pakdef are saying that SAAB ERIEYE does not have ground mapping capability meaning that it does not have a SAR system installed thou it can track ground targets with its radar.

[Dizasta]

Yes. The SAR (synthetic aperture radar) gives the EMB-145 RS (which is different setup to the EMB-145) exceptional advantage over the Saab ERIEYE for ground surveillance, but one thing should be understood that this system is specifically for Brazil to survey the Amazon basin, basically lots of environmental protection systems are installed for that specific purpose. This system could be used in Pakistan for crop conditions, air pollution data, search and rescue options in peace times and ground tracking in war times but it can not provide air surveillance and pass vector data for interception by fighters for that EMB-145 will be required. I think Sweden was working on a SAR system on the SAAB ERIEYE, but not much info is available, most posts on pakdef are saying that SAAB ERIEYE does not have ground mapping capability meaning that it does not have a SAR system installed thou it can track ground targets with its radar.

Brother Safdar, the subject in discussion isn't to choose the ERJ-145 RS/AGS over the Saab Ericsson Erieyes. Rather to use both of them along with P-3C Orions. Interoperability, data-link and real-time surveillence from Erieyes, RS/AGS & Orions linked together to give PA, PAF & PN an unmatched Inter-Service real-time Net-Centric Warfare capability.

PAF has opted for the Erieyes, PN for the Orions .... it would be only prudent for PA to opt for a platform which enables them to reach parity in near real-time surveillance with its sister services. Currently, the only platform which comes close to the capability that is required, are the 2 DA-20 Falcon ELINT aircraft in PAF's inventory. These are not enough nor are they in anyway technology-wise going to give Pakistan the capability of ground surveillance.

Y-8 ground surveillance variant would be a good option. However PA or PAF should be studying its capability and its interoperability with Erieyes and Orions.

[platinum786]

Considering we'd have three different platforms manufactured by three different companies/nations, wouldn't intergrating them effectively be somewhat difficult? We'd probably have to create our own system/software that'd use all three systems as forms of input and pass generalised data onto other levels. The software used in all three of the systems will be different. If it is intergrated who gets to see what? Does only a central command get the entire picture or is it provided to everyone including commanders on the battle field/frontline?

Another question arises when I think about this. It is great to be able to take a birds eye/armchair view of the battlefield and operate from there, but what concerns me is the potential for information overload. Imagine a commander in charge of a ground assult on some enemy formation becomes aware or the launching of enemy fighter planes some distance away from the battlefield but heading in his general direction. When does this commander make it his duty to get soemone to take action to prevent an ariel assult? What is to say that the person in charge of air defence over the sector isn't already aware of the threat and taking action against it? On the other hand, potentailly both commanders could wait on each other to act? What could be done to prevent this?

[maglomanic]

Considering we'd have three different platforms manufactured by three different companies/nations, wouldn't intergrating them effectively be somewhat difficult? We'd probably have to create our own system/software that'd use all three systems as forms of input and pass generalised data onto other levels. The software used in all three of the systems will be different. If it is intergrated who gets to see what? Does only a central command get the entire picture or is it provided to everyone including commanders on the battle field/frontline?

Pakistan integrated all it's radars (Chinese +Western) recently. Infact one of my friend was briefly involved with that project. Even private sector companies helped with software integration.
Lets look at like this.
1)Chinese system is being favoured because of deep transfer of techology. They will help in building a Defense entity for research and development in this field according to a news report when this Chinese AWE&C news was first made public. So this means Pakistan will know in and out of any such system.

2)Swedish system is being bought and as a customer of this system Pakistan will definitely recieve support in integration. Alot of systems come with Software development Kits which give them ability to interface with the system. Again some technology transfer has been mentioned before incase of Erieyes. Also,Pakistan's main reason was technology when they went for Erieye and not performance. Infact they rejected Hawkeye earlier on in favor of Erieye becuase of AESA technology on Erieye compared to mechanical array. So i can defintely see they are interested not just in what it does but what it is too.

3)Weakest link in the mix is Hawkeye 2000 on our Orions. In the worst case scenario we will have to equip navy with F-16s armed with harpoons in greater numbers than lets say JF-17 or J-10. But then it might not be a problem at all, who knows.

Another question arises when I think about this. It is great to be able to take a birds eye/armchair view of the battlefield and operate from there, but what concerns me is the potential for information overload. Imagine a commander in charge of a ground assult on some enemy formation becomes aware or the launching of enemy fighter planes some distance away from the battlefield but heading in his general direction. When does this commander make it his duty to get soemone to take action to prevent an ariel assult? What is to say that the person in charge of air defence over the sector isn't already aware of the threat and taking action against it? On the other hand, potentailly both commanders could wait on each other to act? What could be done to prevent this?

Thats not a technology question but C4I philosphy question. Any nation that builds it's C4I asks these questions. Pakistan has been quite active in C4I development so i am sure their concepts have matured quite a bit (they even sold to bangaldesh). You are definetly going to see different answers to this very same question from different armed forces. It will depend on what kind of threat is inbound and what component of armed forces reacts to it and how it acknowledges it is aware of the inbound threat.

[Dizasta]

Considering we'd have three different platforms manufactured by three different companies/nations, wouldn't intergrating them effectively be somewhat difficult? We'd probably have to create our own system/software that'd use all three systems as forms of input and pass generalised data onto other levels. The software used in all three of the systems will be different. If it is intergrated who gets to see what? Does only a central command get the entire picture or is it provided to everyone including commanders on the battle field/frontline?

Pakistan's Air Defence Network integration and streamlining initiative was taken in the early 1990s. Based on this, the primary objective was to link up different types and models of AD-Radars. It was called 'Project Crystal' which performed the primary task of streamlining radar feed from types of American, British, German and Chinese origin. Once completed, Pakistan's Air Defence Network, rivalled the best in the Asian continent.

- FPS-89/100 (America)
- AN/TPS-77 (America)
- Type 514 (China)
- YLC-2 (China)
- YLC-6 (China)
- Condor (Britain)
- Thompson CSF (America)
- AR-1/15 (America)
- MPDR (Germany)

Now, since Pakistan is getting the PS-890 (radar) Erieyes, APS-80 (radar) Orion, AN/APS-145 (radar) Hawkeye & KLJ-200. It would be yet another task of integrating the types to create a Net-Centric System. Compatibility of Data Linking these different systems would entirely depend on how PAF wants to go about using them.

[Dizasta]

C4I System Of Pakistan

The Air Defense Automation System has been indigenously developed by Air Weapons Complex (AWC). The designed system collects information from all Air Defense sensors and radars, processes it, converts it into a standard format and displays it in real time at any desired location. The system architecture is independent of space, time and communication medium. The Command and Control System provides an environment for multiple functions to operate on the same hardware platform and share data via a Local Area Network (LAN) or a Wide Area Network (WAN).

The System allows the Commander to a view a fused picture of his complete Area Of Responsibility (AOR). It is a compilation of data from all Air Defense sensors, combined with battle plan, projection overlays, and any other data that is available, including:
current locations and planned movement operations of ground, maritime and air units of friendly, neutral, and enemy forces
generated features and projections (e.g. battle plans, operating zones)

Our engineers work closely with the customers to provide them customized, open, flexible and cost-effective solutions to their Air Defense Automation System requirements. AWC provides comprehensive Integrated Logistic Support (ILS) throughout the life cycle of the System.

FEATURES:

Seamless integration with C4I systems.
Network centric design allowing self-forming and self-healing network (user can enter or leave the network dynamically).
Complete Air Situation Display (ASD).
User friendly and compact Graphical User Interface.
The System can be operated in different modes (Operator, Commander etc.)
Personnel training under simulation mode.
Scenario recording and replay facility.
Communication with lower and higher command centers.
Advanced GIS support.
Multiple layer architecture (Display of multiple maps).
Map features e.g. map loading, map editing, map color changing etc.
Preset and programmable zoom buttons.
Display of Latitude/Longitude, Georef and Grid System.
True battlefield scenario support.
Display of track history during interception operation. User can switch on/off history of track.
Track symbol indicating its category.
Track type indicates the threat status of the track.
Tactical interception aids available.
Radar on/off option.
Aircraft Plot Suppression Area (PSA).
Non-automatic track initiation area.
Weapons (SAM/AAA) status monitoring.
Use of commercial technologies.
Ergonomically designed Command and Control Console.
Easy maintenance.

MULTIPLE RADAR TRACKER:

AWC's Multi Radar Tracker (MRT) uses state-of-the-art tracking algorithms to detect and track all modern, fast and highly maneuverable targets, hence forming an integral part of C4I and Air Defense Automation System. It works effectively in high clutter environments and displays real time information for any command & control function. It can handle 2000 plots and 1000 tracks. This capability can be further enhanced due to scalable design of the Tracker. It can be integrated simultaneously with homogenous and heterogeneous radars.

The Tracker automatically initiates and reliably tracks maneuvering targets. The tracks initiation and maneuvering detection is enhanced with multiple sensors. The trackers update the display information at a high rate to form a true, accurate and complete Air Situation Display (ASD) for all air-defense and air-traffic control operations.

Inferring the presence of valid targets from a series of plots and tracks received from different radars.
Calculating optimally by the sensor the true trajectories of the target in presence of uncertainties imposed by the sensor as well as aircraft dynamics.
Recognizing and rejecting false targets.
Successfully tracking and predicting the optimal estimates of the target in the presence of clutter and false alarms.
Displaying target tracking information.
Forming correct association between tracks and observation from radars in different environment.
Successfully tracking the target during extreme conditions of fast maneuver, formations, miss detection, cross-overs etc.
Fusing information from multiple radars of different ranges, resolutions, scan times and other radars parameters.
Analyzing the influence of sensor modeling, radar processor design, and change of other system parameters on algorithm design.

AWC'S MULTI-FUNCTIONAL MOBILE C4I CENTERS AND C4I CONSOLES:

AWC has developed Mobile Command and Control Centers for Forward Area Air Defense Command and Control Operations. AWC has designed rugged rack mount hardware suitable for mission critical operations for mobile command and control centers. AWC has performed complete thermal, reliability and vibration analysis of the System.

AWC’s Command and Control Consoles are suitable for critical defense applications. The multi-functional Command and Control Consoles are suitable for mobile ground systems, surface ships and aircraft. It comprises an ergonomically designed rugged chassis, which functions as a protective shell for the electronics inside. It can be used in a variety of C4I applications.

This article is taken from Air Weapons Complex main website

Edited by Dizasta, 16 August 2007 - 09:23 PM.

[Dizasta]

P-3 AEW

United States Customs Service P-3 AEW airborne early warning radar aircraft provide radar coverage wherever needed, including: the southern border, the Caribbean, or over international waters adjacent to as well as over source and transit countries. Established by Congress during the late 1960's in response to the growing number of airborne smugglers bringing drugs into the United States, the Customs Aviation Interdiction Program became operational in 1971. Its mission: to stem the flow of illicit drugs coming into the U.S. through the air and to assist other federal, state and local law enforcement agencies.

The Air and Marine Interdiction Division [AMID] is an element of the President's National Drug Control Policy. In addition to protecting the borders of the United States, USCS air and marine crews work in conjunction with the law enforcement agencies and military forces of other nations in support of their counter-narcotic programs. The AMID provides detection and monitoring, interceptor support, and coordinated training with military and law enforcement personnel of other countries. The Customs P-3 AEW airborne early warning (AEW) aircraft provide radar coverage over the jungles and mountainous regions of Central and South America. They also patrol the vast Southwest Border and international waters to monitor shipping lanes and air routes in search of smuggling activities. P-3 interceptor aircraft often augment the AEW aircraft to identify and track suspect targets.

link

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To be noted, P-3C AEWs are capable of detecting ground targets, however the range, detection capability as to how well defined the object detection really is, ie, according to the size of the object .... isn't well defined. This could be the ground surveillance platform that PAF may utilize or employ for ground surveillance.

Also to be noted that P-3C Orions can also be employed for ground surveillance, as the US Forces did when they were in Somalia.

This perhaps can be the triad of sigint & elint that Pakistan may employ, with  a mix of Erieyes (AEWs), Y-8 (AEWs/AGS), P-3 (AEWs/AGS/ASW) & P-3C Orions (AEWs/ASWs). Now the question is whether there could be an all round data link capability and interoperability b/w the Chinese and American platforms. Also if the Chinese platforms can data link with American TPS radars.

[maglomanic]

For further information on the AWE&C capabilities research Hawkeye 2000 which will be mated with PC-3 platform. The US coast guard AWE were earlier on equipped with a different radar. Later on E-2C hawkeye systems were installed on them.

http://www.geocities.com/lucktam/awacs/grumman/hawkeye.htm#

http://www.geocities.com/lucktam/awacs/grumman/hawkcut.htm

http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/hawkeye/

The actual brain of Hawkeye2000 system is Lockheed Martin AN/APS 145 radar. Official brochure
http://www.navalsupport.com/pdfs/APS-145rev1.pdf

[Yahya]

C4i system
http://www.awc.com.pk/C4I.htm

Description

The Air Defense Automation System has been indigenously developed by Air Weapons Complex (AWC). The designed system collects information from all Air Defense sensors and radars, processes it, converts it into a standard format and displays it in real time at any desired location. The system architecture is independent of space, time and communication medium. The Command and Control System provides an environment for multiple functions to operate on the same hardware platform and share data via a Local Area Network (LAN) or a Wide Area Network (WAN).

The System allows the Commander to a view a fused picture of his complete Area Of Responsibility (AOR). It is a compilation of data from all Air Defense sensors, combined with battle plan, projection overlays, and any other data that is available, including:
current locations and planned movement operations of ground, maritime and air units of friendly, neutral, and enemy forces
generated features and projections (e.g. battle plans, operating zones)

Our engineers work closely with the customers to provide them customized, open, flexible and cost-effective solutions to their Air Defense Automation System requirements. AWC provides comprehensive Integrated Logistic Support (ILS) throughout the life cycle of the System.
SALIENT FEATURES

    * Seamless integration with C4I systems.
    * Network centric design allowing self-forming and self-healing network (user can enter or leave the network dynamically).
    * Complete Air Situation Display (ASD).
    * User friendly and compact Graphical User Interface.
    * The System can be operated in different modes (Operator, Commander etc.)
    * Personnel training under simulation mode.
    * Scenario recording and replay facility.
    * Communication with lower and higher command centers.
    * Advanced GIS support.
    * Multiple layer architecture (Display of multiple maps).
    * Map features e.g. map loading, map editing, map color changing etc.
    * Preset and programmable zoom buttons.
    * Display of Latitude/Longitude, Georef and Grid System.
    * True battlefield scenario support.
    * Display of track history during interception operation. User can switch on/off history of track.
    * Track symbol indicating its category.
    * Track type indicates the threat status of the track.
    * Tactical interception aids available.
    * Radar on/off option.
    * Aircraft Plot Suppression Area (PSA).
    * Non-automatic track initiation area.
    * Weapons (SAM/AAA) status monitoring.
    * Use of commercial technologies.
    * Ergonomically designed Command and Control Console.
    * Easy maintenance.

MULTIPLE RADAR TRACKER

        AWC's Multi Radar Tracker (MRT) uses state-of-the-art tracking algorithms to detect and track all modern, fast and highly maneuverable targets, hence forming an integral part of C4I and Air Defense Automation System. It works effectively in high clutter environments and displays real time information for any command & control function. It can handle 2000 plots and 1000 tracks. This capability can be further enhanced due to scalable design of the Tracker. It can be integrated simultaneously with homogenous and heterogeneous radars.

The Tracker automatically initiates and reliably tracks maneuvering targets. The tracks initiation and maneuvering detection is enhanced with multiple sensors. The trackers update the display information at a high rate to form a true, accurate and complete Air Situation Display (ASD) for all air-defense and air-traffic control operations.


The main functions of the MRT algorithm include:



    * Inferring the presence of valid targets from a series of plots and tracks received from different radars.
    * Calculating optimally by the sensor the true trajectories of the target in presence of uncertainties imposed by the sensor as well as aircraft dynamics.
    * Recognizing and rejecting false targets.
    * Successfully tracking and predicting the optimal estimates of the target in the presence of clutter and false alarms.
    * Displaying target tracking information.
    * Forming correct association between tracks and observation from radars in different environment.
    * Successfully tracking the target during extreme conditions of fast maneuver, formations, miss detection, cross-overs etc.
    * Fusing information from multiple radars of different ranges, resolutions, scan times and other radars parameters.
    * Analyzing the influence of sensor modeling, radar processor design, and change of other system parameters on algorithm design.

AWC'S MULTI-FUNCTIONAL MOBILE C4I CENTERS AND C4I CONSOLES

AWC has developed Mobile Command and Control Centers for Forward Area Air Defense Command and Control Operations. AWC has designed rugged rack mount hardware suitable for mission critical operations for mobile command and control centers. AWC has performed complete thermal, reliability and vibration analysis of the System.

AWC’s Command and Control Consoles are suitable for critical defense applications. The multi-functional Command and Control Consoles are suitable for mobile ground systems, surface ships and aircraft. It comprises an ergonomically designed rugged chassis, which functions as a protective shell for the electronics inside. It can be used in a variety of C4I applications.

[Dizasta]

AWC's C4I system, would be going to work again on integrating Erieyes AEWs, Y-8 AEWs, P-3 AEWs & P-3C Orion ASWs.

[Yahya]

AWC's C4I system, would be going to work again on integrating Erieyes AEWs, Y-8 AEWs, P-3 AEWs & P-3C Orion ASWs.

well its not AWCs C4i any more...its Nescoms C4i...lol....any ways....that article is a few years old....capabilities of the present system are clasified...

[PakShaheen]

Considering we'd have three different platforms manufactured by three different companies/nations, wouldn't intergrating them effectively be somewhat difficult? We'd probably have to create our own system/software that'd use all three systems as forms of input and pass generalised data onto other levels. The software used in all three of the systems will be different. If it is intergrated who gets to see what? Does only a central command get the entire picture or is it provided to everyone including commanders on the battle field/frontline?

Another question arises when I think about this. It is great to be able to take a birds eye/armchair view of the battlefield and operate from there, but what concerns me is the potential for information overload. Imagine a commander in charge of a ground assult on some enemy formation becomes aware or the launching of enemy fighter planes some distance away from the battlefield but heading in his general direction. When does this commander make it his duty to get soemone to take action to prevent an ariel assult? What is to say that the person in charge of air defence over the sector isn't already aware of the threat and taking action against it? On the other hand, potentailly both commanders could wait on each other to act? What could be done to prevent this?

Well, Plat! I think C4I will work in a tree like heirarchy whenb it comes to decesion making. Each sensor unit will responsible for a particular job in war. Officiers will be responsible for their own area of responsibility but they will definately report to higher node in that decesion making heirarchy before and after taking any decision and hence at top most node threater commander or commander inchief will able to have a more percise look.

As for as information duplication is concern, I think their will be more than one way to confirm and engage the target. Now this is where your (our in case of Pakistan) war doctrine will also come into play. [stretegic level decesions e.g. when and where to use weapons like BMs,etc]

Now coming to other concern of yours about the information sharing in a uniform and standardized manner which is gathered from different sensors by differently built. Yeah till some decades ago this was a problem but not know. I don't know what kind of background you have but we in IT have something called XML (extensible markup language) and it primarly does exactly what is required here. It is a universal programming language now. It really can combine two very different compiler outputs and can further perform operation on that data. [say one module in Assembly language doing some low level calculations and one module from JAVA/C# language doing some sort of simulation work. Now XML can be put right inbetween two if we want to use Assembly language module data for simulation module]
But that is just one mare example there are one hell of Middleware avaiable to get standarized output from hetrogenious systems/sensors. (Like CORBA/JVI)

When talking about the Net-Centric warfare i think one thing we are not looking at is the UAVs. I know SAAB-2000 will come without SAR capability but there is a remdey for it if we can heve a SAR radar and put it on some UAV. I know there are some limitations of these kind of things. But in area like mountains it can quite handy if deployed in numbers. So any words from someone if there is such a solution is available from local or forigen source.

[platinum786]

Well, Plat! I think C4I will work in a tree like heirarchy whenb it comes to decesion making. Each sensor unit will responsible for a particular job in war. Officiers will be responsible for their own area of responsibility but they will definately report to higher node in that decesion making heirarchy before and after taking any decision and hence at top most node threater commander or commander inchief will able to have a more percise look.

As for as information duplication is concern, I think their will be more than one way to confirm and engage the target. Now this is where your (our in case of Pakistan) war doctrine will also come into play. [stretegic level decesions e.g. when and where to use weapons like BMs,etc]

Now coming to other concern of yours about the information sharing in a uniform and standardized manner which is gathered from different sensors by differently built. Yeah till some decades ago this was a problem but not know. I don't know what kind of background you have but we in IT have something called XML (extensible markup language) and it primarly does exactly what is required here. It is a universal programming language now. It really can combine two very different compiler outputs and can further perform operation on that data. [say one module in Assembly language doing some low level calculations and one module from JAVA/C# language doing some sort of simulation work. Now XML can be put right inbetween two if we want to use Assembly language module data for simulation module]
But that is just one mare example there are one hell of Middleware avaiable to get standarized output from hetrogenious systems/sensors. (Like CORBA/JVI)

When talking about the Net-Centric warfare i think one thing we are not looking at is the UAVs. I know SAAB-2000 will come without SAR capability but there is a remdey for it if we can heve a SAR radar and put it on some UAV. I know there are some limitations of these kind of things. But in area like mountains it can quite handy if deployed in numbers. So any words from someone if there is such a solution is available from local or forigen source.

It's incredible how quickly one forgets the material from one's university degree. I graduated from Computer Science just a month before writing that post. I'm completely aware of XML and infact did an entire module about CORBA and Distributed Object Computing. Furthermore in my job I've come across programs such as Legacy Veratream which i think could also be utlised to help reduce this problem.

[PakShaheen]

Off course ! there are many solutions. It is good 2 know that you are also related to IT. wish you very best of your future ventures in carrier. [MAY ALLAH BLESS YOU]