232 replies to this topic

[sobank]

All those small questions regarding Pak Army goes here.

You are welcome to put any question. For starters in defence, it will be wise to read this thread to get some confusions out of your way and save yourself from other people shouting that it goes in question thread or already answered in question thread.

A guideline
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1- make sure your question is small and precise.
2- dont ask questions for which people may have different opinion e.g. "which tank is better?", though a question like the difference in two tank models is fine.

3-give your text a red color.

4- finally be courteous and a thank you note will be appreciated by the person who is answering your question.

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Mods could you please Pin the topic.

[Usman]

How much RPG-7 or RPG-27  effective on modren day tanks, are Tanks like T80UD, AK, Arjun, T-90 could be destory with these weapons?

[GreenBeret]

disabled maybe ,destroyed i dont think so,plus with RPG it wud be better to aim tracks or back of tank coz tanks already have good armour in front n sides.some tanks do have side skirts on tracks also.

[sparten]

would be smart thread indeed---

How much RPG-7 or RPG-27  effective on modren day tanks, are Tanks like T80UD, AK, Arjun, T-90 could be destory with these weapons?

M1 Tanker answered this question last year. IIRC he said, hat at close range at the backside, an RPG may well kill a tank, even an Abrams As for the Frontal Armour,its unlikely to penetrate, but it will possibly destroy optics, and communication links.

[Usman]

I read some where tht Al-Kahlid has 125mm smooth bore Gun whereas the Arjun MBT has 120mm main Gun. Which Gun is better in performance?

What s TOWED Artiallry and Self Propelled Artillary, and which is better?

[GreenBeret]

Self propelled artillery is an artillery gun of any calibre(105mm,155mm,203mm)placed on a tank chasis thats thus it may even look like a tank.It is used in regiments serving in armoured forces and can easily pace up with armoured forces as it has its own driver alongwith crew
Towed Artillery is an artillery gun on 2/4/6 wheels,that needs a truck to be towed by it for transportation.its used in mountain areas or with infantry divisions.

[faz101]

i'll answeer the artillery qn.

Towed artillery requires a truck to pull it to where the action is. when in combat it's crew also has less protection. SP artillery is mounted on a tank chassis and gives the crew all the protection a tank offers. it's also a lot more mobile and means that the artillery can keep up with the tanks in a strike formation and provide immediate firepower if neccessary.

hope that helps.

[GreenBeret]

about thje 125mm and 120mm gun,search this forum and u will find  a very big discussion on it,usually 120mm gun is considered better.

[Usman]

Thanks 4 info -----Faz & Green Beret

Let me Find few more Qs

[AL-khalid]

i wanted to ask; do we make both of these artillery gus in Pakistan ? if yes, what type of artillery guns do we make ?
I also heard that in AK-2 we will be using 120 mm gun; please correct me if i am wrong ! thanks!

[faz101]

i wanted to ask; do we make both of these artillery gus in Pakistan ? if yes, what type of artillery guns do we make ?
I also heard that in AK-2 we will be using 120 mm gun; please correct me if i am wrong ! thanks!

i'm sorry again I'm probably only partly answering the question but yes, we do make towed artillery pieces. AFAIK we make all our towed artillery pieces. SP artillery is in the form of US supplied M109s - which we'll be getting more of in the next few months if we haven't already. currently these SP guns are superior to anything else we can field cause they have full computing capability for laying down more accurate firepower.

[Usman]

i read the T-80UD & AK Tanks are specilly for Desert warefare, Then which tank in PA inventory used for terrain in Northren Punjab area bordering Kashmir & Indian Punjab.

[GreenBeret]

i wanted to ask; do we make both of these artillery gus in Pakistan ? if yes, what type of artillery guns do we make ?
I also heard that in AK-2 we will be using 120 mm gun; please correct me if i am wrong ! thanks!

we dont make any artillery guns in pakistan,not even 105mm piece.we have towed artillery guns from China and USA which are,M114 155mm,M115 8 inch howitzer,M101 105mm howitzer,Type59-1(chinese) 1300mm field gun etc.
We only produce MBRL's 122mm.

We have two types of SP guns,155mm M109A2 and more in this category will be acquired,also 203mm(8 inch)M110A2.

AK2 will be 120mm if Chinese new tank is 120mm,shifting from 125mm to 120mm is not easy.

i read the T-80UD & AK Tanks are specilly for Desert warefare, Then which tank in PA inventory used for terrain in Northren Punjab area bordering Kashmir & Indian Punjab.

We have T69II and T59's also.T69II are upgraded to 105mm L7 british Gun.also T85II with 125mm gun is there but im not sure abt current deployment.

[sobank]

AK is made for all terrain performance. generally speaking, if your tank can perform well in desert, it can also perfrom well in northern area.

a cooler engine is always a good thing. The temprature in the areas where one can deploy a tank, is not extreme so ak and 80 both should do well. Terrain requirement is the same as desert one i.e. light and good armor. but some changes might add to increased survivability of the tanks in northern areas. These changes will include a heavier armor for ambush attack protection.

In northern areas tanks are hard to deploy because of increased ambush and complicated terrain. battles are mostly fought on hills so tanks practically are useless.

[blain2]

i'll answeer the artillery qn.

Towed artillery requires a truck to pull it to where the action is. when in combat it's crew also has less protection. SP artillery is mounted on a tank chassis and gives the crew all the protection a tank offers. it's also a lot more mobile and means that the artillery can keep up with the tanks in a strike formation and provide immediate firepower if neccessary.

hope that helps.

One exception. SP artillery can be both wheeled and tracked.  Not neccessary for it to be mounted on tank chassis.  French and South Africans have SP artillery mounted on wheeled chasis.

[faz101]

greenberet,

I'm slightly confused. I remember reading an army magazine published in 1997 for 50 yrs of independence and it clearly said that we produced some towed artillery in-house. i think the particular artillery gun was called rana or somethnig like that. read it a long time ago so my memory is quite hazy but can you confirm that we don't make any towed artillery in Pakistan?

blain2, yes you are right I forgot to mention that wheeled transport can also be used instead of tank chassis.

[sparten]

We do produce artillery. Buts its only the 105 mm IIRC. ANd I don't know if its in service.

about thje 125mm and 120mm gun,search this forum and u will find  a very big discussion on it,usually 120mm gun is considered better.

It must be remembered that the AKs 125 mm gun is different from the T-72 gun. ANd it has much better AP qualities.

Even tanky accepted that.

[sobank]

i was wondering if we can produce sub-munitions like those in ATACMS(950 base ball sized M74 munitions).
i have no technical knowledge...so please shed more light on it, than i received on my previous questions.
If yes, then we can use them in HATAF-1 and form our own ATACMS....is it possible ?

yes but if we want to have one is another question. First of all we cannot afford to send a ballistic missile with a gernades for anti personal attack. secondly a ballistic missile is very inacurate as compared to an artilary shell and again very expensive one.  there are lot more cheaper ways today to deliver this kind of attack. And the day our our missile system becomes so accurate that they can use M74 like munition, we wont need it

[GreenBeret]

greenberet,

I'm slightly confused. I remember reading an army magazine published in 1997 for 50 yrs of independence and it clearly said that we produced some towed artillery in-house. i think the particular artillery gun was called rana or somethnig like that. read it a long time ago so my memory is quite hazy but can you confirm that we don't make any towed artillery in Pakistan?

Yaar im quite sure we make ammunation for artillery systems but i havent read or heard that me make any calibre of towed artillery guns.

[Usman]

About how many tanks  are in a Tank Squadren, and approx how many tank squadren are in armoured Birgade?

[GreenBeret]

About how many tanks  are in a Tank Squadren, and approx how many tank squadren are in armoured Birgade?

id make it simple for u and breakdown from brigade to troop formation:

1 armour brigade= 2 tank regiments + 1 mech infantry battalion

1 tank regiment=45 tanks(3 squadrons)

1 squadron=15 tanks(3-4 troop)

1 troop=3-4 tanks

thats for a general idea

[Usman]

Is there any kind of Mines which could make any disterous effect on Armoured Vehicles like Tanks, APC's atc, becoz i usually

[ali23]

Usman the difference between a 120 mm(rifled) and a 125 mm(smooth bore) is that the rifled bore uses grooves like a rifle's barrel to make a round stable while a smooth bore doesn't have grooves instead it uses fins to stabilse a round.

[sobank]

But they r termed as guided missiles..and HATAF-1 is battlefield range ballistic missile.i remember MAJ. GEN.
Shock-at-sultan saying that the deviation of our ballistic missiles is 0.1%. so for shorter ranges like 80 or 100, its not  a big deal

again depends on who we are talking about. Is it possible to do it--yes. is it economical for PA--No.

An HE shell used in our M155 guns have a 50m kill zone. put those on hataf and they are certain death for infantry. Now thats effiecient and economical. and 0.1% deviation wont mean anything cause the kill zone is not  depending on if it hits the enemy soldier or not. if you are in 50m, you are dead. most prolly trenches wont save you. which is not the same as in ATacms.

[sobank]

sorry to trouble u again and again...but i cannot understand why not ?do u want to say that  we can do the same thing with HE shells.?that

You have to understand the working of the two munitions.

ATACMS is practically a big frag grenade. you wont get killed unless you get hit by a projectile released from atacm. to die or get injured by it, you have to get hit by one. on the other hand if you are around the corner and if the blast will kill you or the after effects of the blast cetainly kill you. HE will blow off a building, while the atacm will make wholes in the building. a person might not die because of direct blast of  HE if he is inside the building but he will certainly be crippled becuase of building coming to ground.

HE can destroy the armors atacm might not be able to do that. (note the might part.)

[pilot_dude]

AK is made for all terrain performance. generally speaking, if your tank can perform well in desert, it can also perfrom well in northern area.

a cooler engine is always a good thing. The temprature in the areas where one can deploy a tank, is not extreme so ak and 80 both should do well. Terrain requirement is the same as desert one i.e. light and good armor. but some changes might add to increased survivability of the tanks in northern areas. These changes will include a heavier armor for ambush attack protection.

In northern areas tanks are hard to deploy because of increased ambush and complicated terrain. battles are mostly fought on hills so tanks practically are useless.

Dont tank's gt trapped/buried in sandy deserts?

correct me if i am wrong but isnt this what happin in the 1965 war when we entered rajhistan?????     

[sobank]

that is why their weight, track dimensions and track dimension etc. is customized to avoid and minimize the pound per square inch pressure which helps the tanks to stay above sand.

[blain2]

I heard that G-3s donot work in extremely cold temperatures like Siachen ?????

Yes correct. This is the reason that all units on Siachen are equipped with Type-59s.

[Arms for Peace]

What's so hard about making artillery, why can't we make them.

[Usman]

The Soldiers of Infantry Birgate / division are Only uses Small arms like Rifles / Garnades etc. ?

[faz101]

The Soldiers of Infantry Birgate / division are Only uses Small arms like Rifles / Garnades etc. ?

no ont neccessarily. infantry brigades also have recolloiss(sp?) rifles which can be used for infantry support and to knock out tanks etc. they can also have anti-tank weaponary like bhaktar shikan and SAMs like Anza etc. they also have mines (both anti-tank and anti-personnel). using radios they can of course call in air support and artillery support.

i've also personnally known of infantry brigades that in war-time situations can have armour regiments attached to them for close support.

[sobank]

are u sure type 59s are assault rifle. I thought they used ak-47s. could you give me a link to type 59s blain.

I thought  type 59 are field guns and tanks. anyway please give me a link or just tell me its different model of ak 47 or something.

[crazyinsane105]

What's so hard about making artillery, why can't we make them.

It requires a very strong industrialization in steel and other metals. It's something that Pakistan doesn't have at the moment.

[Usman]

On this forum i ready the thread regarding the formation of Pak Army, where in IA structure the terms of RAPID DIVISIONS & MOUNTAIN DIVISION are mentioned.

Whats their operational role?

[faz101]

AFAIK mountain division is just another designation. technically these troops are all trained at mountain warfare etc. but they have fought elsewhere as well.

RAPID divisions are just rapidly deployable to the frontline. ties in with their cold start doctrine whereby some divisions would rapidly deploy to the border while other IA formations mobilise to face any threat.

[sohailbarki]

why pak army not uses that scopes of G3 riples for more accuracy as did by americans and others..also i do not see use of bullet proof jackets..G3 is good for scope purpose it will act like short to medium range sniper..

[sobank]

why pak army not uses that scopes of G3 riples for more accuracy as did by americans and others..also i do not see use of bullet proof jackets..G3 is good for scope purpose it will act like short to medium range sniper..

A good speculative response will be the fact that we are moving away from g3. it has completed its time in army. They have already started its replacement on smaller scale by brining in styre aug, a most ugly and not so reliable gun in my opinion:).

Though deployment of styre aug is still full of doubts. but yes I do agree that we should have given a 2-4x zoom  lense to g3.

bullet proof: well cost is big question here. though we are moving toward it soon slowly Inshallah.

[GreenBeret]

Bullet-proof jackets are in use now in WANA region

On this forum i ready the thread regarding the formation of Pak Army, where in IA structure the terms of RAPID DIVISIONS & MOUNTAIN DIVISION are mentioned.

Whats their operational role?

RAPID divisions are actually half-mechanized divisions.

Mountain divisions are like infantry divisions without armour support and only deployed in kashmir like mountaineous terrain.

[sohailbarki]

will how much cast one jacket did.. indian army is using them in kashmir if u see television and kashmir shots u will see them wearing..while pakistan exports (i hear) why not use them extensively..it is not a bad to save ur man from in coming bullets and ur casualties figures get high and rise the moral of ur enemy..


what is styre aug. is G3 is replacing by it if u have any pics or source so share it..

[sparten]

will how much cast one jacket did.. indian army is using them in kashmir if u see television and kashmir shots u will see them wearing..while pakistan exports (i hear) why not use them extensively..it is not a bad to save ur man from in coming bullets and ur casualties figures get high and rise the moral of ur enemy..
what is styre aug. is G3 is replacing by it if u have any pics or source so share it..

For the 100th time, we have been using vests for 2 decades. They are used according to doctrine of the particular nation, we use them mostly when we are on internal security ops such as WANA. Look at pic from the 80's or early 90's in Karachi, they wear them as well. Jackets are heavy and uncomfortable, and not really useful against MG or even 7.62 mm rounds, thus they are not used in combat operations such as such, since they can actually reduce mobility, which is WAAAAAAAY more dangerous.