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[KudosBot]

China Aims to Put Man on Moon by 2020



Fresh from its second manned space mission, China's space program wants to be able to put a man on the moon and build a space station in 15 years, an official said Sunday.

"I think in about 10 to 15 years, we will have the ability to build our own space station and to carry out a manned moon landing," said Hu Shixiang, deputy commander of China's manned space flight program.

But the goal is subject to getting enough funds from the government, Hu said, explaining that the space program must fit in the larger scheme of the country's overall development.

Hu was in Hong Kong with the two astronauts who conducted China's second successful manned space mission in October. He spoke during a televised question-and-answer session with executives from various television stations and newspapers.

Nie Haisheng and Fei Junlong circled Earth for five days aboard the Shenzhou 6 capsule, traveling 2 million miles in 115 hours, 32 minutes. China's first manned mission was in 2003, when astronaut Yang Liwei orbited for 21 1/2 hours.

China wants to master the technology for a space walk and docking in space by 2012, Hu said. He said China was developing its space program at its own pace, not in competition with the United States. "It's not the competition of the Cold War era," he said.

Hu stressed China's intention to use space exploration for peaceful ends, saying the government "is willing to work hard with people around the world for the peaceful use of space."

He said Chinese space officials want to study the possibility of making rockets with the capacity to carry spacecraft weighing 27.5 tons _ three times the capacity of their existing rockets _ but the government hasn't approved the funding.

Hu dismissed suggestions the space program is too costly for a country that, despite rapid economic growth, is still struggling to eradicate rural poverty.

He noted the recent space mission cost $111.4 million, compared to the $23.5 billion that China spent on combating pollution last year.


http://www.kfmb.com/stories/story.29457.html

[aziqbal]

I always have said and belive that 2020 is a vision for both Malaysia and China, by 2020 China technology will have caught up with EU, US and Japan. Malaysia will have become the first developed muslim country with GDP per captia of $25,000 and China by that time will have surpassed Japans GDP. By 2020 the situation will have changed around the world with most if not all of the asian countrys sided and tilted towards the chinese policy. China will have  a massive role to play in every aspect of international affiars and will be leading the way for many countrys.

This space programme is just the tip of the ice berg when it comes to china's making.

[mindreader]

Optimistic at best...

[M1Tanker]

If I remember correctly, Bush said he wants a manned mission soon, as do the Russian states. Now China is trying to go too.

The big question here is why? Why spend the billions and billions of dollars (or what have you) to go to the moon? There's plenty of moon rock available for study (a thousand kg or so if I remember correctly) already.

If it's national pride, screw em all. There's better things to spend money on.

Tanky

[Explorer]

If I remember correctly, Bush said he wants a manned mission soon, as do the Russian states. Now China is trying to go too.

The big question here is why? Why spend the billions and billions of dollars (or what have you) to go to the moon? There's plenty of moon rock available for study (a thousand kg or so if I remember correctly) already.

If it's national pride, screw em all. There's better things to spend money on.

Tanky

Hi Tanky! Long time no see! Have you been on that Siberia trip you'd longed for? Hehe...

Don't worry about where governments spend the money as long as it doesn't end up in corruption. Money will be spent and more money will come in (it's just paper, if you think about it). As long as people have jobs and feel good about their lives, that's not a bad thing (much better than spending it on arms race).

You don't know goodies on the Moon? Lots of energy resourses, as they say, and even lots of alien bases. Now that's worth checking out, isn't it?

[M1Tanker]

Hi Tanky! Long time no see! Have you been on that Siberia trip you'd longed for? Hehe...

I never did get that Siberia trip although I did go back in time. I'm on a 14.4 dial-up now. It's so 1995.

Don't worry about where governments spend the money as long as it doesn't end up in corruption. Money will be spent and more money will come in (it's just paper, if you think about it). As long as people have jobs and feel good about their lives, that's not a bad thing (much better than spending it on arms race).

I see where you are coming from on this, but isn't there a better way to budget and spend money than on some feel-good project that has little real-world use? Granted, money is paper, but it is finite. I'm not sure how much it costs to send someone to the moon, but I do know that the money could be spent on something a little more worthwile like fusion research or something else that has a practicle application.

You don't know goodies on the Moon? Lots of energy resourses, as they say, and even lots of alien bases. Now that's worth checking out, isn't it?

I sure hope there are alien bases on the moon and I hope the aliens are as hot as the aliens on Star Trek. I'll get me some interstellar lovin.

Cpt Tanky of the Starship Poontang

[aziqbal]

If I remember correctly, Bush said he wants a manned mission soon, as do the Russian states. Now China is trying to go too.

The big question here is why? Why spend the billions and billions of dollars (or what have you) to go to the moon? There's plenty of moon rock available for study (a thousand kg or so if I remember correctly) already.

If it's national pride, screw em all. There's better things to spend money on.

Tanky

what, should china be like US and spend it on killing people, great idea, why didnt the rest of the civilized world think of that

[M1Tanker]

what, should china be like US and spend it on killing people, great idea, why didnt the rest of the civilized world think of that

China IS spending it on killing people. Which country is building its military at an unheard of pace? China. Which county is prepping for an invasion of Taiwan? China.

What do you think armies are for? Killing people. Maybe China should spend less money on its army and more money killing chickens? That bird flu problem is a bugger isn't it? Rumor has it that bird flu is sexually transmitted too. Or maybe it's caused by a huge chemical spill in a river that the goverment won't admit to until it's about to flow into another country.

Tanky

[mindreader]

China IS spending it on killing people. Which country is building its military at an unheard of pace? China. Which county is prepping for an invasion of Taiwan? China.

What do you think armies are for? Killing people. Maybe China should spend less money on its army and more money killing chickens? That bird flu problem is a bugger isn't it? Rumor has it that bird flu is sexually transmitted too. Or maybe it's caused by a huge chemical spill in a river that the goverment won't admit to until it's about to flow into another country.

Tanky

That's funny, if certain a certain country (what is that country called again?) and its allies aren't always sticking their noses in China's business (especially considering that the aforementioned country that is invading everybody and their mother), spying on China, among other things, maybe China wouldn't feel threatened enough to build up its military forces.

And it's somehow funny that a country like China would try to regain one of its own province isn't it.  I mean, what a shame right?  Shame on them Chinamen.

As far as building military forces go, which country is by far ahead of every other country on earth and still spending a trillion dollars a year in defence budget?  Sure ain't China.

And of course yes, the bird flu.  Considering that the bird flu WASN'T even started in China but in Japan, and that the Chinese government already stockpiled hundreds of millions of dollars worth of medicine, yeah I definitely see your point.  Moron.

[M1Tanker]

That's funny, if certain a certain country (what is that country called again?) and its allies aren't always sticking their noses in China's business (especially considering that the aforementioned country that is invading everybody and their mother),

Everybody AND thier mother? I assume you are Chinese and you may assume I am American (you would assume correctly). So America has invaded everyone's mother, including yours. I, being American, have invaded your mother. No wonder you are pissed off.

All joking aside, invading two countries is not "everybody and thier mother."

spying on China, among other things, maybe China wouldn't feel threatened enough to build up its military forces

Wait a minute... aren't Chinese nationals in the US stealing military secrets? Even if you don't agree with that, you can't believe that there aren't lots and lots Chinese spys in America.

Here's a quicky Google search you may be interested in looking at: here.

And it's somehow funny that a country like China would try to regain one of its own province isn't it.  I mean, what a shame right?  Shame on them Chinamen.

If being part of China is such a great thing, why the need for an invasion? Surely those silly Taiwanese must not concider Taiwan part of China! Shame on them for thinking for themselves!

As far as building military forces go, which country is by far ahead of every other country on earth and still spending a trillion dollars a year in defence budget?  Sure ain't China.

Maybe it is because you have to pay an American engineer $100,000 a year or more and the chinese defence engineer makes due with a small fraction of that. Also, maybe it is because of enviro-laws. In America you can't just dump a few hundred thousand liters of toxins in a river and call it good.

And of course yes, the bird flu.  Considering that the bird flu WASN'T even started in China but in Japan, and that the Chinese government already stockpiled hundreds of millions of dollars worth of medicine, yeah I definitely see your point. 

Who cares where it was started. AIDS wasn't started in India but they sure have a problem with it. Well, maybe you're right. Since South Africa didn't start AIDS they shouldn't try and solve the problem.

Moron.

Is that the best you can do? Name call?

One day, your backwards government will fall and some sort of better replacement government will be much better than the current batch of thugs. No more Tiananmen Squares, no more censorship of the internet (Google, Yahoo, and others agreed to censure anti-Chinese government information), and no more invasion of Taiwan.

People's Republic, my ass.

Tanky

[gnak]

One day, your backwards government will fall and some sort of better replacement government will be much better than the current batch of thugs.

China communist government post 1976 is very flexible it changes accordingly to suit the current climate, there’s nothing wrong with government in China its one of the most political stable nation on earth.

and no more invasion of Taiwan.

Not necessary as soon as the KMT wins the next election forceful reunification will not be necessary. China has much greater plans than just a mere island of its coast I assure you.

[shaolin]

“Everybody AND thier mother? I assume you are Chinese and you may assume I am American (you would assume correctly)…”

Everyone here knows that you are an Indian American (the last word can be assumed). For an inferior India like you to be an American, your mom apparently has been invaded or volunteered to work in the army just like the women soldier in Iraq who served the military men. That is why you are cowboy, haha, Indian bastard cowboy who loves to drink cow pissssss. Anyway your mom was not a virgin anymore before she moved to US. For your info in case your mom never told you,  everyone on earth  knows that  your mom was invaded in 1962 by thousands of Chinese military Men because of her adopting forwarding posture.

”All joking aside, invading two countries is not "everybody and thier mother."”

So,  invading India in 1962 is justified because we just invaded your mom ( Next time put your sis and wife in the line). I love your Indian Morons logic, haha. Your mom deserve that invasion, you are a real cowboy~

”Wait a minute... aren't Chinese nationals in the US stealing military secrets? Even if you don't agree with that, you can't believe that there aren't lots and lots Chinese spys in America. “

Temporary cowboy, all Indians including you in US have been spying for inferior India for years, it is a known fact, forget thitty quick google search. All the spying this and that are from Indian spies in US, pointing your fingers at others cant cover the fact that you are an inferior Indian. Wake up you moron, calling name is the same as trying to put labels on others, for you stupid Indians, no one wants to waste any labels.

”If being part of China is such a great thing, why the need for an invasion? Surely those silly Taiwanese must not concider Taiwan part of China! Shame on them for thinking for themselves!”

We all know Indians are proud of being Americans, too bad, no one wants Indians, that is why Americans have never invaded Indian, but British invaded your mom, you do have an British father who did not pay any childen support. Haha.

“In America you can't just dump a few hundred thousand liters of toxins in a river and call it good.”

You are right, cowboy, you do not drink water in Buffalo Canal area. Instead, you drink cow pissss in the south.

”Is that the best you can do? Name call? “

He just discovered that Indians are morons. He might win Noble Prize if he can find some medicines to help you out.


People's Republic kicked Indian ass in 62.

You need one more time?

[ahho]

What is the big fuzz about spies, the news make it that it is so rare. Everybody spy on each other. "Stop spying on us you pervert"


but the thing is why is the media making it that there are no scurity around confidential documents

[Explorer]

Now Tanky you get yourself in trouble... Hehe.

Are you really an Indian American? Not that I care, I just never thought about it at all. In my godly eyes, all humans are essentially the same. There are good and bad in each and every bunch, and "good" and "bad" are but relative human terms.

But in my human mind, I do have my own ever changing sentiment toward the rest of the highly emotionally unstable and logically often confused human beings.

Being a race aspiring to emulate their creators of their imagination, humans are a miserable failure. Being a crew acting in this self-created grand game, humans are very successful players, hence all the misery throughout human history.

That is the godly truth that I verily tell you all. And I don't expect many to buy it. For if too many of you do, the game would be over, would have been over long time ago.

So cheers and get busy getting yourself miserable in your human lives while they last. Hehe...

[KunLun]

That is why you are cowboy, haha, Indian bastard cowboy who loves to drink cow pissssss. You need one more time?

they really drink cow pee?
but I think not all Indian drink cow urine, maybe 99% only
the other 1% is rich enough to get lamb urine

[Captain Bribes]

they really drink cow pee?
but I think not all Indian drink cow urine, maybe 99% only
the other 1% is rich enough to get lamb urine

Yes Chinese friend, The Indians really do drink cow pi$$ infact they even bottle the product for export and domestic use

See here for yourself: http://www.anupriyo.com/blog/archive/images/cure-all.jpg

[M1Tanker]

China communist government post 1976 is very flexible it changes accordingly to suit the current climate, there’s nothing wrong with government in China its one of the most political stable nation on earth.

I would disagree with you. Stability at the cost of personal freedom is just a dream. Once China has a free press and a real middle class the truth will come out and those naughty ole commies will be placed where they belong... in the history books.

Just to set the record straight, I have no beef with the Chinese people. When in uni some of my best friends were Chinese exchange students and years ago I nearly married a Chinese girl. China is one of the countries I want to visit in 2006. My beef with China is not its people but its government.

Not necessary as soon as the KMT wins the next election forceful reunification will not be necessary. China has much greater plans than just a mere island of its coast I assure you.

If Taiwan votes to become part of China, more power to them. I think you may have missed my point in that if being part of China was so great, why would the PLA need to use force to "reunify" China?

Tanky

[M1Tanker]

Now Tanky you get yourself in trouble... Hehe.

It sure does! It seems as I've been mis-cast! Honestly though, even if I was an Indian-American, who cares?

Are you really an Indian American? Not that I care, I just never thought about it at all. In my godly eyes, all humans are essentially the same. There are good and bad in each and every bunch, and "good" and "bad" are but relative human terms.

For those of you who have been around long enough, I posted my Iraq pictures a few months back. I'm also a Jew. There aren't many Indian Jews floating around...

[quote]But in my human mind, I do have my own ever changing sentiment toward the rest of the highly emotionally unstable and logically often confused human beings. [/quote[

Yes, it seems like even in this "Age of Information" all this learning as done little to solve age-old problems, eh?

Tanky

[mindreader]

Everybody AND thier mother? I assume you are Chinese and you may assume I am American (you would assume correctly). So America has invaded everyone's mother, including yours. I, being American, have invaded your mother. No wonder you are pissed off.

All joking aside, invading two countries is not "everybody and thier mother."
Wait a minute... aren't Chinese nationals in the US stealing military secrets? Even if you don't agree with that, you can't believe that there aren't lots and lots Chinese spys in America.

Here's a quicky Google search you may be interested in looking at: here.
If being part of China is such a great thing, why the need for an invasion? Surely those silly Taiwanese must not concider Taiwan part of China! Shame on them for thinking for themselves!
Maybe it is because you have to pay an American engineer $100,000 a year or more and the chinese defence engineer makes due with a small fraction of that. Also, maybe it is because of enviro-laws. In America you can't just dump a few hundred thousand liters of toxins in a river and call it good.
Who cares where it was started. AIDS wasn't started in India but they sure have a problem with it. Well, maybe you're right. Since South Africa didn't start AIDS they shouldn't try and solve the problem.
Is that the best you can do? Name call?

One day, your backwards government will fall and some sort of better replacement government will be much better than the current batch of thugs. No more Tiananmen Squares, no more censorship of the internet (Google, Yahoo, and others agreed to censure anti-Chinese government information), and no more invasion of Taiwan.

People's Republic, my ass.

Tanky

You can't possibly be as stupid as you sound.  A lot of Chinese nationals stealing "secrets" in the US?  Notice to quote.  Go ahead, show me how many have actualy been proven.  And I don't mean charges such as "mishandling documents" or any variation of such.  I mean man, the Chinese even stole the W-88 warhead right?  What can't they steal?  With such stealing capacity it's a surprise that China's military technology isn't the best in the world yet.

And btw, your moronic ass can't even distinguish what spying is.  Buying commercially available chemicals NOT subject to US export bans to China ISN'T spying.  Shocking isn't it?  Neither is attending seminars offered by US corporations.  But it all comes down to proof doesn't it?  So I reiterate again: show me the proof.  Put up or shut up.

As for Taiwan, you have demonstrated many times in the past that there is no need to debate with you on the subject.  You know jack about history/culture/geopolitics of the region or in general.  As for your rant to why not let the Taiwanese think for themselves, gee, last time I checked, in no, zero, zip, zilch, nada, 0 polls conducted has the people supporting TI ever exceeded 18%.  You know what else is funny?  If it isn't because of certain actions by a certain country, Taiwan wouldn't be an issue right now.  And yet idiots from that country run rampant claiming let the Taiwanese (more like Chinese isn't it) decide for themselves.

As for the US defence budget, really, you can't dump toxins in river?  And you can in China?  Fact is, in either country is it legal to dump toxins in river and in either country abuses are widespread.  Want me to dig up the famous toxic waste burying incidents in the US?  OK so an American engineer gets paid $100,000 and a Chinese engineer gets paid $30,000 (this is by far an understatement), that's a factor of 3.  So explain to me again how the US defence budget is 30 to 40 times that of China again?  Wouldn't you expect a factor of 3?  Only a moron such as yourself would claim that the bloated US defence budget is significantly caused by wage pay rather than something else.

If you don't care where the bird flu virus is started, why bring it up?  And China is by far more prepared than almost all countries, so I'm sure that has nothing to do with it.

Calling you a moron isn't name calling.  It's more a statement of fact.  And who's gonna overthrow the CCP?  Your moronic ass.  All governments fall sooner or later but it isn't because of brainwashed little twerps like you shouting all the propaganda.

[cyborg02]

As for Taiwan, you have demonstrated many times in the past that there is no need to debate with you on the subject.  You know jack about history/culture/geopolitics of the region or in general.  As for your rant to why not let the Taiwanese think for themselves, gee, last time I checked, in no, zero, zip, zilch, nada, 0 polls conducted has the people supporting TI ever exceeded 18%.  You know what else is funny?  If it isn't because of certain actions by a certain country, Taiwan wouldn't be an issue right now.  And yet idiots from that country run rampant claiming let the Taiwanese (more like Chinese isn't it) decide for themselves.

Number of Taiwanese supporting unification is even less. Less than 10% support CCP's one-country two system policy. Majority support status-quo, which is de factor independence.

[M1Tanker]

You can't possibly be as stupid as you sound.  A lot of Chinese nationals stealing "secrets" in the US?  Notice to quote.  And I don't mean charges such as "mishandling documents" or any variation of such.  I mean man, the Chinese even stole the W-88 warhead right?  What can't they steal?  With such stealing capacity it's a surprise that China's military technology isn't the best in the world yet.

Oh, tisk tisk! Sounds like your panties are in a bunch!

Go ahead, show me how many have actualy been proven

Okay. Below is from f-16.com

"Thursday, August 21, 2003 - Boeing engineer accused of stealing classified F-16 information from the U.S. government has been arrested in Taiwan. Howard Hsu, 57, is accused of spying for the People's Republic of China by hacking into a U.S. government Web site and stealing classified information on the F- 16 Fighting Falcon's night-combat systems, as well as on the command and control-data links.

The sensitive information is of great interest to the People's Republic of China, since Taiwan (the Republic of China) has at least 150 F-16s and relations between the two countries are tense."

Need more?

And btw, your moronic ass can't even distinguish what spying is.  Buying commercially available chemicals NOT subject to US export bans to China ISN'T spying.  Shocking isn't it?  Neither is attending seminars offered by US corporations.  But it all comes down to proof doesn't it?  So I reiterate again: show me the proof.  Put up or shut up.

Oh, more name calling. Is an F-16 a commercially available chemical? If I need to learn what spying is, maybe you need to learn what a chemical is?

Put up or shut up? From MSNBC.com.

"LOS ANGELES - The federal charge against three Chinese immigrants -- failing to register as foreign agents -- is a far cry from what investigators first alleged: a broad plot to steal secrets behind U.S. warship technology. Government authorities said they may seek charges beyond the indictment issued Tuesday, but some counterintelligence analysts see parallels with other cases against alleged Chinese spies that eventually unraveled.

"There's one case after another where senior officials allege serious activities ... and then the case just falls apart and you end with minor-looking charges," Paul Moore, a consultant and former China chief analyst for the FBI, said Wednesday."

Maybe naval ships are also common chemicals?

As for Taiwan, you have demonstrated many times in the past that there is no need to debate with you on the subject.

If there is no need to debate me on the subject, why do you debate me on the subject?

You know jack about history/culture/geopolitics of the region or in general.  As for your rant to why not let the Taiwanese think for themselves, gee, last time I checked, in no, zero, zip, zilch, nada, 0 polls conducted has the people supporting TI ever exceeded 18%.  You know what else is funny?  If it isn't because of certain actions by a certain country, Taiwan wouldn't be an issue right now.  And yet idiots from that country run rampant claiming let the Taiwanese (more like Chinese isn't it) decide for themselves.

Could it be that the US is backing Taiwan's self-interest? What if the US hadn't backed Taiwan? Would it have gone merrily over to join China? Let's think...

Want me to dig up the famous toxic waste burying incidents in the US?  OK so an American engineer gets paid $100,000 and a Chinese engineer gets paid $30,000 (this is by far an understatement), that's a factor of 3.  So explain to me again how the US defence budget is 30 to 40 times that of China again?  Wouldn't you expect a factor of 3?  Only a moron such as yourself would claim that the bloated US defence budget is significantly caused by wage pay rather than something else.

Name calling... good, good. Here's the average pay for workers in HK in pounds (figure 1.8 dollars to the pound give or take) from the :BBC:

Project manager: £12,173
Software engineer: £6,998
Accountant: £4,677
Sales rep: £2,649
Production worker: £1,214

A Chinese production worker makes $2,000 a year? A worker at a US auto plant makes about $27 an hour or a little under $40,000 a year. Also, you claim that Chinese engineers make $30,000 a year. According to the reliable source I quoted above, a software engineer makes $12,500 in HONG KONG. How much does he earn at a slave-labor factory for Nike? How much working for the government?

"We are going to try and save as many jobs as we can, but at the current wage rates, we would have to close down all of our US plants," Miller said. Delphi will pay an average US wage of $26.97 an hour in 2005.

Calling you a moron isn't name calling.  It's more a statement of fact.

Wait a minute, aside from calling me a moron you've presented no facts aside from your (incorrect) opinion. Who is the moron?

And who's gonna overthrow the CCP?  Your moronic ass.  All governments fall sooner or later but it isn't because of brainwashed little twerps like you shouting all the propaganda.

More name calling. And who is going to overthrow what? You can't even quote me correctly. There's a "quote" button. Use it. This is what I said:

One day, your backwards government will fall

One day, the Chinese people will discover that being middle class is a good thing. One of the best parts of being middle class is you don't work as a slave working in a Nike factory making $1,000 a year. Once the middle class rises (and it isn't too far away) and demands a living wage the factories will leave. Companies using China as cheap slave labor will have to move to somewhere that they can exploit the people and not pay them correctly. The Chinese economy will stagnate as imports and exports equalize and the workers move from a manufacturing economy to a service economy.

At this point, there isn't a massive amounts of money flowing into the country like today and the people will kick out the goverment and emplace a new, better government.

As for the little "twerp" like me, personally I won't get involved. You seem very passionate about supporting the freedom-loving communist government. Let's see if you sing the same song 10 years from now.

In the mean time, I need some more shoes. Get back to work.

Tanky

[crazyinsane105]

Why would the Chinese need to steal info about the F-16 when Pakistan has them? That really doesn't make much sense to me.

[M1Tanker]

Why would the Chinese need to steal info about the F-16 when Pakistan has them? That really doesn't make much sense to me.

China wants info on the technology for the upcoming versions of the F-16... they stole info from the development lab. The F-16s that Pak fly don't have the cutting edge-tech that the newer F-16s have.

Tanky

[OP1]

China wants info on the technology for the upcoming versions of the F-16... they stole info from the development lab. The F-16s that Pak fly don't have the cutting edge-tech that the newer F-16s have.

Tanky

Don't forget that Israel really helped the U.S. by handing the Lavi right into China's hands. 2 billion U.S. tax dollar for the project went down the drain.

[M1Tanker]

Don't forget that Israel really helped the U.S. by handing the Lavi right into China's hands. 2 billion U.S. tax dollar for the project went down the drain.

Sometimes I'm not so sure whose side Israel is on. The Lavi wasn't the first sensitive item that "slipped" out of thier hands and into some third party.

I wonder what would happen if the US decided to not give aid to Israel for a year? Maybe that would straighten Israel out? (If it was still there...)

Tanky

[aziqbal]

Sometimes I'm not so sure whose side Israel is on. The Lavi wasn't the first sensitive item that "slipped" out of thier hands and into some third party.

I wonder what would happen if the US decided to not give aid to Israel for a year? Maybe that would straighten Israel out? (If it was still there...)

Tanky

Israel has been backing stabbing the US since its creaion, after the first Gulf War many modified iraqi T55s and T62 chinese copys that saddam bought from china under generous funding by the PLA had alot of isreali influence and modifications that were in turn borrowed from the US, israelis helped chinese tank technology going back to the 1960s.

[Tiberia]

Yes Chinese friend, The Indians really do drink cow pi$$ infact they even bottle the product for export and domestic use
See here for yourself: http://www.anupriyo.com/blog/archive/images/cure-all.jpg

WOw that link shows a after shave product with bull pic on it and that is made of cow pee wow indians are so stupid....
they say drinking cow urine is good for health...how stupid....
And many indians drink their own pee on the start of the day, and before going to bed....
    

[mindreader]

Oh, tisk tisk! Sounds like your panties are in a bunch!
Okay. Below is from f-16.com

"Thursday, August 21, 2003 - Boeing engineer accused of stealing classified F-16 information from the U.S. government has been arrested in Taiwan. Howard Hsu, 57, is accused of spying for the People's Republic of China by hacking into a U.S. government Web site and stealing classified information on the F- 16 Fighting Falcon's night-combat systems, as well as on the command and control-data links.

The sensitive information is of great interest to the People's Republic of China, since Taiwan (the Republic of China) has at least 150 F-16s and relations between the two countries are tense."

Need more?
Oh, more name calling. Is an F-16 a commercially available chemical? If I need to learn what spying is, maybe you need to learn what a chemical is?

Put up or shut up? From MSNBC.com.

"LOS ANGELES - The federal charge against three Chinese immigrants -- failing to register as foreign agents -- is a far cry from what investigators first alleged: a broad plot to steal secrets behind U.S. warship technology. Government authorities said they may seek charges beyond the indictment issued Tuesday, but some counterintelligence analysts see parallels with other cases against alleged Chinese spies that eventually unraveled.

"There's one case after another where senior officials allege serious activities ... and then the case just falls apart and you end with minor-looking charges," Paul Moore, a consultant and former China chief analyst for the FBI, said Wednesday."

Maybe naval ships are also common chemicals?
If there is no need to debate me on the subject, why do you debate me on the subject?
Could it be that the US is backing Taiwan's self-interest? What if the US hadn't backed Taiwan? Would it have gone merrily over to join China? Let's think...
Name calling... good, good. Here's the average pay for workers in HK in pounds (figure 1.8 dollars to the pound give or take) from the :BBC:

Project manager: £12,173
Software engineer: £6,998
Accountant: £4,677
Sales rep: £2,649
Production worker: £1,214

A Chinese production worker makes $2,000 a year? A worker at a US auto plant makes about $27 an hour or a little under $40,000 a year. Also, you claim that Chinese engineers make $30,000 a year. According to the reliable source I quoted above, a software engineer makes $12,500 in HONG KONG. How much does he earn at a slave-labor factory for Nike? How much working for the government?

"We are going to try and save as many jobs as we can, but at the current wage rates, we would have to close down all of our US plants," Miller said. Delphi will pay an average US wage of $26.97 an hour in 2005.
Wait a minute, aside from calling me a moron you've presented no facts aside from your (incorrect) opinion. Who is the moron?
More name calling. And who is going to overthrow what? You can't even quote me correctly. There's a "quote" button. Use it. This is what I said:
One day, the Chinese people will discover that being middle class is a good thing. One of the best parts of being middle class is you don't work as a slave working in a Nike factory making $1,000 a year. Once the middle class rises (and it isn't too far away) and demands a living wage the factories will leave. Companies using China as cheap slave labor will have to move to somewhere that they can exploit the people and not pay them correctly. The Chinese economy will stagnate as imports and exports equalize and the workers move from a manufacturing economy to a service economy.

At this point, there isn't a massive amounts of money flowing into the country like today and the people will kick out the goverment and emplace a new, better government.

As for the little "twerp" like me, personally I won't get involved. You seem very passionate about supporting the freedom-loving communist government. Let's see if you sing the same song 10 years from now.

In the mean time, I need some more shoes. Get back to work.

Tanky

Well let's see.  I do know that the English skills of the average American leaves something to be desired, but this is something else altogether.  Usually when people say proof, they mean proof.  Given the number of Chinese engineers working around sensitive equipment and charged and compared of those actually convicted, well guess what, the conviction ratio leaves something to be desired.  So here are the questions:

1. Where is the proof Howard Hsu was spying
2. When will he be convicted (and in fact, will he be convicted) of spying

And given Taiwan's normal paranoia, this will all blow over in a matter of months.  Wouldn't be the first time that somebody is accused of stealing all sorts of military equipment for mainland China.

And F-16?  Why would the PLAAF try to steal to F-16?  They already make things much better AND the F-16's in Taiwan HAVEN'T even been upgraded to MLU block yet.  Only a moron like you would believe such story when even the trials haven't been held yet.

Not only that, you are too stupid to READ YOUR OWN ARTICLE.  In fact, it fits my arguments perfectly.  Guy gets accused of stealing US warship plans, gets lambasted in by the media, morons on Capitol Hill claim "damn the Commie and their spies" and the guy gets charged with a bullsh1t suit.  I mean, I know some people have awful reading comprehension (often due to language difficulties), but this is something else altogether.  You are too stupid to even know that this article goes AGAINST your case instead of FOR your case.  And you wonder why I call you a moron.

From the same source YOU brought up:

"There's one case after another where senior officials allege serious activities ... and then the case just falls apart and you end with minor-looking charges," Paul Moore, a consultant and former China chief analyst for the FBI, said Wednesday."


Once again, where is the proof?  Back to the drawing board.  Go pull something else outta your ass.

I didn't debate with you on Taiwan, I owned your ass.  This isn't a debate.  It's a smackdown.  And the US was backing Taiwan's interest?  Well, considering that Chiang's one wish in his late life was reunification with the mainland, the evidence of the US backing Taiwan's interest is astounding.

And you possibly CAN'T be as stupid as you sound.  You can't.  Nobody can.  When you implied that US engineers make $100k a year, I naturally assumed you meant engineers working in the defence field.  And so I quoted Chinese engineers working for defence fields, which is easily over $30k a year.  What I didn't think is that you were claiming that ALL US engineers earn on average $100k because I didn't think ANYBODY could be that stupid.

The highest paid engineering fields in the US are computer engineering and mechanical engineering.  At entry level they earn $45,000 a year.  The others earn MUCH lower.  For example, if you're a civ, you expect about $30 - 35k.  On average, across ALL engineering fields and all levels the average is about $70,000, and that would represent a slight overstatement.  What I would like to know where you got the $100,000 from.  Maybe you averaged those over 60 year old and already in semi-retirement AND were lucky enough not to have been laid off already.  In other words, YOU ARE FULL OF SH1T.

Not to mention, a slave labourer for Nike won't be able to go near a defence research lab would he?  Not that you can tell the difference.

And let's talk about "slave labour."  You know what that is called?  Gasp, free market economy.  And you know what else.  Know what minimum wage is called?  Gasp, floor price (specifically in the labour market).  Economists don't agree on much but one thing they do agree on is that floor price is bad for the economy.  By setting a minimum wage you are reducing the total surplus in the economy, yada yada yada.

Not only that, know what higher wages mean?  Well, the money has to come from somewhere.  Could it be from the consumers?  In other words, wouldn't it simply mean that people take money from one pocket and put it in another?  A guy earns 100% more money but now has to pay 103% higher price (adjusted for inflation) than before?  You are too stupid to not even be able to tell the diffence between nominal wage and real wage.  And speaking of which, while REAL wage has grown over 20 times in China in the same period, real wage in the US has fallen by over 30% since the 50's.

Which isn't surprising is it?  I mean, I wonder why US manufacturers haven't been able to compete with, well, anybody since the world rebuilt from WWII.  Could it be because of politics and a sense of entitlement from unions?  Not that I expected a moron like you to tell the difference.

And btw, I coulda been your dad, but the dog beat me upstairs.

[M1Tanker]

Well let's see.  I do know that the English skills of the average American leaves something to be desired, but this is something else altogether.  Usually when people say proof, they mean proof.

I showed proof, you showed nothing other than your opinion. End of story.

And F-16?  Why would the PLAAF try to steal to F-16?  They already make things much better AND the F-16's in Taiwan HAVEN'T even been upgraded to MLU block yet.  Only a moron like you would believe such story when even the trials haven't been held yet.

Is it realistic to pretend that both China and the US are not interested in upcoming technology? Both the US and China have spies working hard to uncover what's coming down the pipe in the future.

Once again, where is the proof?  Back to the drawing board.  Go pull something else outta your ass.

You debate poorly.

And the US was backing Taiwan's interest?  Well, considering that Chiang's one wish in his late life was reunification with the mainland, the evidence of the US backing Taiwan's interest is astounding.

Tell the Taiwanese that, not me. I said the US was backing Taiwan, didn't I? You can do better than that.

You can't.  Nobody can.  When you implied that US engineers make $100k a year, I naturally assumed you meant engineers working in the defence field.  And so I quoted Chinese engineers working for defence fields, which is easily over $30k a year.  What I didn't think is that you were claiming that ALL US engineers earn on average $100k because I didn't think ANYBODY could be that stupid.

My sister is a chem engineer. She is 26. She makes $95,000 a year for a chem firm in South Carolina. Her husband is a material sci engineer. He is 29. He makes $125,000. My friend in New Jersey works part time as a contractor (mech eng) making $50,000. A government engineer starts at paygrade GS-12 or 13 (about $50-$60 a year). You state lower entry-level wages, which are close to correct. Most engineers in the defense industry have a few years under thier belts and make about $100,000. Again, I showed proof, you showed nothing. I really don't care what you think, show me some proof.

Just for reference, when I was in the Army, I made $84,000 a year after about 4 years. (look it up: 0-3E with 12 years ($5,200/m) plus German COLA (between $600 and $1,000/m) and housing allowance (I got a free house, but my off post allowance was between $1,000 and $1,700). You are WAY off base.

  On average, across ALL engineering fields and all levels the average is about $75k, and that would represent an overstatement.  What I would like to know where you got the $100,000 from.  Maybe you averaged those over 60 year old and already in semi-retirement AND were lucky enough not to have been laid off already.  In other words, YOU ARE FULL OF SH1T.

Again, no proof and some name calling. Good job with that 1 thrown in there. Very clever and mature.

Anyway, you bring nothing to the forum and are ignored. Enjoy your life.

Tanky

[mindreader]

I showed proof, you showed nothing other than your opinion. End of story.
Is it realistic to pretend that both China and the US are not interested in upcoming technology? Both the US and China have spies working hard to uncover what's coming down the pipe in the future.
You debate poorly.
Tell the Taiwanese that, not me. I said the US was backing Taiwan, didn't I? You can do better than that.
My sister is a chem engineer. She is 26. She makes $95,000 a year for a chem firm in South Carolina. Her husband is a material sci engineer. He is 29. He makes $125,000. My friend in New Jersey works part time as a contractor (mech eng) making $50,000. A government engineer starts at paygrade GS-12 or 13 (about $50-$60 a year). You state lower entry-level wages, which are close to correct. Most engineers in the defense industry have a few years under thier belts and make about $100,000. Again, I showed proof, you showed nothing. I really don't care what you think, show me some proof.

Just for reference, when I was in the Army, I made $84,000 a year after about 4 years. (look it up: 0-3E with 12 years ($5,200/m) plus German COLA (between $600 and $1,000/m) and housing allowance (I got a free house, but my off post allowance was between $1,000 and $1,700). You are WAY off base.
Again, no proof and some name calling. Good job with that 1 thrown in there. Very clever and mature.

Anyway, you bring nothing to the forum and are ignored. Enjoy your life.

Tanky

Yeah you certainly showed proof there.  Here's another proof.  Yo mama is a whore, prove me wrong.  That's essentially what you've been doing.

And certainly spying on the F-16 is gonna tell what will come down the pipe in the future.  If the spying network in China is so efficient, wouldn't they be able to spy on the F-22?  Why the hell waste time on the F-16 when you can spy on the F-22?

I debated poorly?  You mean after I owned your ass by pointing out that YOUR own article goes AGAINST your argument.  That's as much a smackdown as anybody can get.

And the Taiwanese certainly aren't telling me in any fairly conducted polls they want to be independent.

Well, I'm sure glad that your sister and her husband speak for the median level salary for the entire US.  Hold on, let me pull up excel and find the standard error for a sample size of 2.

http://www.payscale.com/research/vid-3360/fid-6886
Median Salary By Job
For Industry=Engineering
MedianRangeAverage
Narrow in by: Company Type, Size, City, Experience, Skills, Gender, Degrees, More...
Mechanical Engineer  (653) 56000  

Electrical Engineer  (513) 61755  

Project Engineer  (378) 57210  

Civil Engineer  (340) 50000  

Software Engineer / Developer / Programmer  (208) 60000  

Sr. Software Engineer / Developer / Programmer  (204) 83000  

Manufacturing Engineer  (173) 53000  

CAD Drafter  (111) 40000  


http://swz.salary.com/salarywizard/layouth...EN04100006.html

The median expected salary for a typical Electrical Engineer I in the United States is $54,338.

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos030.htm

Median annual earnings of civil engineers were $60,070 in 2002. The middle 50 percent earned between $48,360 and $74,700. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $39,960, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $91,010. Median annual earnings in the industries employing the largest numbers of civil engineers in 2002 were:


Federal government $67,410
Local government 62,210
Architectural, engineering, and related services 59,060
State government 58,350
Nonresidential building construction 54,190

http://www.payscale.com/research/vid-3270/fid-6886
California  (25234) 62540  

Texas  (19434) 63290  

Michigan  (17692) 57200  

Illinois  (12767) 54710  

Ohio  (12478) 52640  

New York  (9604) 55220  

Pennsylvania  (8947) 54240  

Massachusetts  (6747) 62270  

Any questions?  Now flee.

[shaolin]

Read  " poorly debate..." somehwere,  

Typical Hindi Language...  hahaha...

" I am a Jew"

  A assumed India American cow boy Jew... how bad and how desperate it could be, totally screwed up...haha


That is how Isreal made the Lavi, Indian Jew stole the F16 tech...and can't sell to no one under US pressure...

That is why Isreal made the EW system and sold to India because of Inferior India Jew. It is proved again how Indians steal tech from US and finally transfered to India, not surprised....

I love to see this animal made in India and exported to Isreal , US...  

[Eyec0n]

Damn... mindreader how many times must Tanky make you look like an idiot before you shutup? Grow up man. Calling his mom a whore? Your a real winner, I bet you live a rich and full life.

[Caesar]

Tanky

Mate, consider the following:

-Don't worry about about the Bhindian Whores# here...they are just...well...a bunch of Wh###!!  

-I agree with you on stealing. Look we cannot deny the fact that Chinese are really desperate to steal US Tech. Look, it is pretty simple...US and Europeans have imposed an arms and tech embargo on China for several years now.....China can only access inferior Russian Tech...so, they are obviously trying to steal, as illustrated by many news articles. We all Know how all the Licenced and Copy-righted, expensive products and software are illegally copied and sold on the streets of Beijing like Pop-Corn....

-I would, however, disagree with you on the Chinese Government!! I think the Communist Party has proved itself to be very flexible, and has changed itself with times. Look, it is not easy to govern a country of 1.4 Billion!!! I think that they have done a wonderful job till now!!

[gnak]

China communist government post 1976 is very flexible it changes accordingly to suit the current climate, there’s nothing wrong with government in China its one of the most political stable nation on earth.

I would disagree with you. Stability at the cost of personal freedom is just a dream. Once China has a free press and a real middle class the truth will come out and those naughty ole commies will be placed where they belong... in the history books.

Just to set the record straight, I have no beef with the Chinese people. When in uni some of my best friends were Chinese exchange students and years ago I nearly married a Chinese girl. China is one of the countries I want to visit in 2006. My beef with China is not its people but its government.
If Taiwan votes to become part of China, more power to them. I think you may have missed my point in that if being part of China was so great, why would the PLA need to use force to "reunify" China?

Tanky

Why do you denounce the Chinese government? You’re not even Chinese. Most Chinese people have great appreciation of the Chinese communist government. See this attitude is why America is so despised in the world, they think their way of doing things is right therefore every nation should model themselves like America. I believe that too much liberalism leads to nihilism therefore China’s current government suits the nation well. People don’t always know what’s good for them...

[M1Tanker]

Tanky

Mate, consider the following:

-Don't worry about about the Bhindian Whores# here...they are just...well...a bunch of Wh###!! 

Regardless, as I really have no beef with Pakistanis or Indians it always makes me sad to see the Indian bashing here. I have no more of a beef with the Indian government than I do any other goverment (I am still waiting for someone to show me a "good" government) and I've never had a problem with any Indian I've ever met.

So, having said that, I won't defend Indian Governmental actions, I also won't mock the people.

-I would, however, disagree with you on the Chinese Government!! I think the Communist Party has proved itself to be very flexible, and has changed itself with times. Look, it is not easy to govern a country of 1.4 Billion!!! I think that they have done a wonderful job till now!!

It has proven itself to be very flexible, but flexible in a good way?. In a way it has become the worst of both Capitalism and Communism. The country festers with sweatshops making plastic junk for the rest of the word where the workers have no rights (how many Chinese coal miners will die before there is some sort of safety program put into place?) and make a pittance while the government represses free thought and political action?

Many of the America (and Western) haters here only hate America because America (and the West) allows itself to be examined. Western governments are fairly transparant. Free press, access to many government documents, etc. If the Chinese government was as transparant as the West, what do you think the press would find? What are they covering up?

Tanky

[M1Tanker]

Why do you denounce the Chinese government? You’re not even Chinese.

I don't have to be a member of a country to denounce its government. I denounce the Saudi Arabian government but I am not Saudi. I denounce the Iranian government but I am not Iranian. I denounce the Israeli government even though I am not Israeli (even though I am a Jew). On the flip side, I denounce my own government.

Most Chinese people have great appreciation of the Chinese communist government.

I disagree with this statement the same way I would disagree with "Most North Korean people have great appreciation for thier government." Aside from the now capitalist people in the coastal cities, how many Chinese realize that there is a better life for them out there? They may don't know any better and believe everything thier government tells them (like the N. Koreans)?

See this attitude is why America is so despised in the world, they think their way of doing things is right therefore every nation should model themselves like America.

I never said that China should be like America. The Chinese said that China should be like America. Then Americans didn't force the free trade zones nor did it shove Hollywood down the Chinese's throat. China is becoming capitalist because China wants to be capitalist not because America said so.

The question remains: if the Chinese were allowed to organize and pick thier own government, what would they choose? What would have happened if the pro-democracy demonstrations 15 years ago weren't crushed with tanks? Would China be in a better place?

People don’t always know what’s good for them...

With that statement I totally agree  

Tanky

[mindreader]

Damn... mindreader how many times must Tanky make you look like an idiot before you shutup? Grow up man. Calling his mom a whore? Your a real winner, I bet you live a rich and full life.

Gee, Eyec0n, for one who have the word "eye" in his moniker, you sure don't see very well.  Please tell me how many times Tanky made me look like an idiot.  Better yet, if you got something other than crap you pull out of your ass, I'm waiting to hear it.

But then again, I am laying the smackdown on someone who can't tell why floor prices are bad for the economy, real wages from nominal wages and can't even google a source that supports his claims than completely trashes it.  I suspect that you are in the same category, because reading obviously isn't your strong point.

And thank you very much.  I do indeed live a very rich life.  However, I believe that there is nothing more pathetic than what I call the internet tough/rich guys, none of which is easily verifiable.  Which is why I'm not gonna share my background.

[OP1]

how many Chinese realize that there is a better life for them out there? They may don't know any better and believe everything thier government tells them (like the N. Koreans)?

Can't speak for all rural populations, but I went back to Hunan during summer. They were well aware of the gap in living standards between the west and China. One thing I noticed is that most villagers have left the farms to live in the towns. Some have express desires to move to the west, but most prefer to stay and try to make a better life. Farmers with relatives abroad or the cities are usually wealthier than those without, not that the gap is very wide.

One of the things I noticed is that the elders still very much admire Mao Zedong. Ever since China opened the door to capitalism, the free healthcare, education and aid package for farmers no longer exists. Farmers nowadays barely produce anything now. May not be true for all of China, but that's pretty much what I have observed at the countryside during my trip.

The question remains: if the Chinese were allowed to organize and pick thier own government, what would they choose? What would have happened if the pro-democracy demonstrations 15 years ago weren't crushed with tanks? Would China be in a better place?

That is very much open to debate. One could argue that the movement would turn China into another Soviet Union, or successfully reform the government. However we know that a period of chaos is usually followed after drastic changes in the political stage so I'm more inclined to believe the similar fate of Soviet Union.

[M1Tanker]

That is very much open to debate. One could argue that the movement would turn China into another Soviet Union, or successfully reform the government. However we know that a period of chaos is usually followed after drastic changes in the political stage so I'm more inclined to believe the similar fate of Soviet Union.

I'm not sure I would agree with you that China would turn into another Soviet Union. I hate to generalize, but from what I've seen the average Chinese has a work ethic that the West should envy. It reminds me of the Japanese 30 years ago. The Soviets never had that work ethic possibly because of communism itself (why work when you can't advance)? The Russians are also hobbled by a sense of defeat (not about Cold War, but of a feeling that things are getting worse and there is nothing they can do about it) and rampant social problems (aging factories, no family planning, alcoholism, decling military, Chechnya).

The biggest difference between the Soviets and the Chinese gov't is how the capitalism was introduced. For the Chinese it was in coastal free trade zones and implimented a little at a time while the Russians opened the country up haphazardly without regulation leaving the previous blackmarketeers in control of much of the country's trade.

All this aside, we're off topic. Back to the moon!

Tanky

[jason_chiu888]

Gee, Eyec0n, for one who have the word "eye" in his moniker, you sure don't see very well.  Please tell me how many times Tanky made me look like an idiot.  Better yet, if you got something other than crap you pull out of your ass, I'm waiting to hear it.

But then again, I am laying the smackdown on someone who can't tell why floor prices are bad for the economy, real wages from nominal wages and can't even google a source that supports his claims than completely trashes it.  I suspect that you are in the same category, because reading obviously isn't your strong point.

And thank you very much.  I do indeed live a very rich life.  However, I believe that there is nothing more pathetic than what I call the internet tough/rich guys, none of which is easily verifiable.  Which is why I'm not gonna share my background.

hey mindreader did you get my message? check your message. thanks!