126 replies to this topic

[MoThSmOkE]

They certainly bring out the worse in us!

[Jimmy Jimmy]

Recognising israel would be like adding an insult to the injury of Palestinian people.But if there is a technic of destroying Israel after accepting it then i would be the first to support such an act.
Iran is an example for us.how Ahmedi is handling Israel is the best way.& those who thinks it would be all good after accepting Israel i want to tell one thing to them Dont be cowards its an easy way out but not the solution forhavensake use your mind Israeli soldiers are raping our Muslim sisters killing our Brothers & sisters & we are here thinking about having a friendship with Israel.Shame on you

[blain2]

Recognising israel would be like adding an insult to the injury of Palestinian people.But if there is a technic of destroying Israel after accepting it then i would be the first to support such an act.
Iran is an example for us.how Ahmedi is handling Israel is the best way.& those who thinks it would be all good after accepting Israel i want to tell one thing to them Dont be cowards its an easy way out but not the solution forhavensake use your mind Israeli soldiers are raping our Muslim sisters killing our Brothers & sisters & we are here thinking about having a friendship with Israel.Shame on you

Although not suggesting eitherway but your statements have a flawed logic (however I do understand your sentiments).  Are the Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan not killing our Muslim Brothers and Sisters?  If yes, should we not break off diplomatic relations with them and then the Russians (for killing the Chechen Muslims) and with Uk for helping US kill Muslims in Iraq, and with Germany and with India?????  There should be a uniform criteria for all diplomatic recognitions on the basis of your points and as such Pakistan should only have relations with those countries who are Muslim, correct?

[Jimmy Jimmy]

Only with those countries who respects Human rights
We should be helping palestinian for their Freedom struggle shouldnt we??
what help would it do to Freedom struggle recognising Israel??
I think our current strategy is right that no recognition of Israel until Sovereign Palestinian State.Why raising this issue again and again??
Truthfully i think we cant handle Israel.Their spyes(MOSAD) are too strong & our ISI is just tracking Al Qaeda & Taleban,& what MOSAD is doing is changing Govt of other countries killing their leaders etc
Recognizing Israel meaning Israelities can come to Pakistan with them MOSAD agents etc

[PS:Annonymous]

Only with those countries who respects Human rights
We should be helping palestinian for their Freedom struggle shouldnt we??
what help would it do to Freedom struggle recognising Israel??
I think our current strategy is right that no recognition of Israel until Sovereign Palestinian State.Why raising this issue again and again??
Truthfully i think we cant handle Israel.Their spyes(MOSAD) are too strong & our ISI is just tracking Al Qaeda & Taleban,& what MOSAD is doing is changing Govt of other countries killing their leaders etc
Recognizing Israel meaning Israelities can come to Pakistan with them MOSAD agents etc

And what makes you think, mossad agents are not already there?

[Jimmy Jimmy]

One more thing is recognizing a nation without boundaries wouldnt that be stupid??
wont that mean that you are compromising on your nations sovereignity??

[Jimmy Jimmy]

One more thing is recognizing a nation without boundaries wouldnt that be stupid??
wont that mean that you are compromising on your nations sovereignity??

[blain2]

Only with those countries who respects Human rights
We should be helping palestinian for their Freedom struggle shouldnt we??
what help would it do to Freedom struggle recognising Israel??
I think our current strategy is right that no recognition of Israel until Sovereign Palestinian State.Why raising this issue again and again??
Truthfully i think we cant handle Israel.Their spyes(MOSAD) are too strong & our ISI is just tracking Al Qaeda & Taleban,& what MOSAD is doing is changing Govt of other countries killing their leaders etc
Recognizing Israel meaning Israelities can come to Pakistan with them MOSAD agents etc

Yeah so does India respect HR in Kashmir?  Do the Russians do the same in Chechnya, how about US in Iraq??  I mean why single out only Israel for the infractions against Muslims??  How about so many others transgressing against Muslim HR?  Hopefully you see the point I am trying to make.  Its essentially you go all out and break off diplomatically with all of the perceived offenders or you stop singling out Israel....Mossad, RAW, MI-6, CIA...they are all in Pakistan just like Pakistan has ISI operatives in the surrounding countries and potentially in the west.

[crazyinsane105]

just like Pakistan has ISI operatives in the surrounding countries and potentially in the west.

Quite true. Pakistan's ISI has some pretty heavy influence in Central Asia but the Central Asian states aren't going to break off diplomatic relations with Pakisan anytime soon. In Israel's case, Pakistan should have diplomatic relations. That doesn't necessarily mean that Pakistan goes all out and recognize Israel. No, we shouldn't recognize Israel until there is a peace treaty between Palestine and Israel and more importantly, a Palestinian state.

[faz101]

My personal opinion is diplomatic recognition is as far as it should go. anything further is neither required nor frankly asked for. all we need to do is say that we recognise that they are there. any further trade, defence (hardly likely) or cultural relations can begin once an independent palestinian state has taken shape. this lets the israelis know outright that we recognise them in a tacit form and lets everyone else know where we stand with regards to any future relations (i.e only after palestinian state is there).

[Saqr]

Just recognize both Israel and Palestine as two different soveriegn nations; ensure that there is no hostility between Pakistan and Israel - and have a greater hand in the Middle East Peace Process.  This way we will do three good things;

1) Show our neutrality.
2) Ensure that we will help both Israel and Palestine
3) Make ourselves look like a tolerant and forward thinking nation

[Dizasta]

Just recognize both Israel and Palestine as two different soveriegn nations; ensure that there is no hostility between Pakistan and Israel - and have a greater hand in the Middle East Peace Process.  This way we will do three good things;

1) Show our neutrality.
2) Ensure that we will help both Israel and Palestine
3) Make ourselves look like a tolerant and forward thinking nation

My dear brother, if it were that simple! Honestly, the recognition of Israel is one aspect where the question is asked, what the real benefit that Pakistan would have? When Israel is selling AWACS to the enemy and selling us nothing, what do you really gain from doing such a thing.

Personally, i'd rather see Pakistani leadership capitalize this and use it to gain something beneficial to us. Something like a bargaining chip! If Israel is willing to sell us technology that would enable us to incorporate superior avionics for Thunders. Then i'd say this would not only benefit Pakistan, but also China. Use our imagination, and you'll see what i mean when i say 'Capitalize'!

[maglomanic]

[b]My dear brother, if it were that simple! Honestly, the recognition of Israel is one aspect where the question is asked, what the real benefit that Pakistan would have? When Israel is selling AWACS to the enemy and selling us nothing, what do you really gain from doing such a thing.

Diz,
If we go by the same logic then we recognize alot of country who would ditch us for good money from Indian arms deal (france now even usa).

few interesting things i would like to add here.
1)The darter series of missiles , R-darter and A-darter are same as Derby and Python-5 form Israel. Pakistan allegedly has R-darter or T-darter (modified version).
2)Alot of new chinese tech has been borrowed and developed with the help of israelis, which eventually helped us and is still helping us.
Now Israel sell to India cause it needs money. trust me they will be very forth coming if we recognize them.

However this is only one side of the argument. I have heard alot about israeli efforts on depriving us of our nuclear capability and the conspiracy regarding attck on Pak nuclear facilities. I have no way to check the veracity but if that is true then we need to be very cautious of them and should have some kind of deterent against them.

Other than that i have nothing agianst israel and beleive, that they should live peacfully with palestinians. We will have more leverage if we engage them and we can probably use it to help palestinians.

[sobank]

unless they give baitul maqaddas to muslims or declare it a free zone under un control, I am not in favor of accepting them. keep enough diplomatic relation to keep them away from us.

[faz101]

My dear brother, if it were that simple! Honestly, the recognition of Israel is one aspect where the question is asked, what the real benefit that Pakistan would have? When Israel is selling AWACS to the enemy and selling us nothing, what do you really gain from doing such a thing.

Personally, i'd rather see Pakistani leadership capitalize this and use it to gain something beneficial to us. Something like a bargaining chip! If Israel is willing to sell us technology that would enable us to incorporate superior avionics for Thunders. Then i'd say this would not only benefit Pakistan, but also China. Use our imagination, and you'll see what i mean when i say 'Capitalize'!

Dizasta bro,

you can't expect us to recognise them on the same day as we start dealing in arms with them. i think in this situation baby steps are needed. my belief is we've already started going that way with a few friendly handshakes etc. at international events. maybe some day we'll recognise them (i like Mark Sein's plan on that one) and further on from that maybe one day we can expect to get arms trade from them (although personaly I am against it, it's too risky and comes with too many strings attached).

However this is only one side of the argument. I have heard alot about israeli efforts on depriving us of our nuclear capability and the conspiracy regarding attck on Pak nuclear facilities. I have no way to check the veracity but if that is true then we need to be very cautious of them and should have some kind of deterent against them.

maglomaniac we do have a deterrent against them and that's out IRBMs/ capability to make ICBMs.

[maglomanic]

maglomaniac we do have a deterrent against them and that's out IRBMs/ capability to make ICBMs.

Yes as of now we do have it but we are barely capable given the distance (launching from the border of baluchistan..our max range is 2500-2600 km). israel has invested alot in ABMs and red arrow might be ble to blunt our ICBMS at their max range. What we need is more range and MaRV capablity to dodge ABMs

[Dizasta]

Diz, If we go by the same logic then we recognize alot of country who would ditch us for good money from Indian arms deal (france now even usa). few interesting things i would like to add here.

Dizasta bro, you can't expect us to recognise them on the same day as we start dealing in arms with them. i think in this situation baby steps are needed. my belief is we've already started going that way with a few friendly handshakes etc. at international events. maybe some day we'll recognise them (i like Mark Sein's plan on that one) and further on from that maybe one day we can expect to get arms trade from them (although personaly I am against it, it's too risky and comes with too many strings attached). maglomaniac we do have a deterrent against them and that's out IRBMs/ capability to make ICBMs.

Maglo & Faz, brothers what i meant was (& i apologise for being vague in post) that we use this recognition of Israel as a 'bargaining chip'. That we capitalize, utilize and establish a mutual benefit in return for recognizing Israel. I think Turkey would possibly be the best case to describe what i'm talking about. Today there are many defence related cooperations b/w Turkey and Israel. An opportunity that is converted to an advantage, that is what i'm asking for.

[faz101]

Maglo & Faz, brothers what i meant was (& i apologise for being vague in post) that we use this recognition of Israel as a 'bargaining chip'. That we capitalize, utilize and establish a mutual benefit in return for recognizing Israel. I think Turkey would possibly be the best case to describe what i'm talking about. Today there are many defence related cooperations b/w Turkey and Israel. An opportunity that is converted to an advantage, that is what i'm asking for.

yes i see your point and i think it is a good idea but it requires some time to truly get to the point where we want it to go.

[maglomanic]

Maglo & Faz, brothers what i meant was (& i apologise for being vague in post) that we use this recognition of Israel as a 'bargaining chip'. That we capitalize, utilize and establish a mutual benefit in return for recognizing Israel. I think Turkey would possibly be the best case to describe what i'm talking about. Today there are many defence related cooperations b/w Turkey and Israel. An opportunity that is converted to an advantage, that is what i'm asking for.

I totally agree with this. I would go on further than that though. I think we should deal with almost all countries like this. We have suffered alot on the pretext of our 'friendship and brotherhood' ideals. Noone does that in todays world. Musharraf has been very clear on this. We have very good relationships and bad ones. In the bigger picture of things both are driven by interests. National interest is paramount in the longer run.

Get Israel in, give them what they want (recogniation right to exist). Use it to alleviate the problems of palestinians and neutralizing their indirect threat to us (tech to india and intelligence collaboration).

[Pakistan First]

Given their pathetic human rights record involving killing of innocent civilians, occupation of land and fundamentalistic objective, we should not recognize such an entity.

[maglomanic]

Given their pathetic human rights record involving killing of innocent civilians, occupation of land and fundamentalistic objective, we should not recognize such an entity.

USA and  Russia does not fill that bill??

[faizan khaliq]

Fact of the matter is that Jews are the biggest enemies of themselves.The election of HAMAS to power and their willingness to talk on cease fire even was indirectly a defecto recognition of Israel by an arch enemy secondly supporting indian lobbying on capital hill against Pakistan brings them on our thresh hold therfore Israel can not be ignored anyfurther in our policy making process.The recognition out of fear of losing favours of America is negative and temporary and will harm our strategic interests more than anygains but policy of pure hatered because of their faith or talking of their elimination is also wrong.Israel is a reality but so are the Palistinions.The process of israel standing on their feet and assessing their true size will take some time.Pakistan,s best bet is to wait and persue peace in middle east adressing the public centiments in middle east through indirect aproach .

[kilo19]

If somebody in his senses still thinks (after recent israeli actions in the middle east) tht we shud recognize ISRAEL for some unassured candy from the US is outta his ##### mind.

[Saqr]

If somebody in his senses still thinks (after recent israeli actions in the middle east) tht we shud recognize ISRAEL for some unassured candy from the US is outta his ##### mind.

The U.S, Russia, India, Arab world, even Pakistan...everyone's responsible for some bad action, why single out Israel.  I have not yet voted, but had Pakistan recognized Israel back in 1948 - India would not be a threat today IMO.

[Captain Bribes]

Thats a good Idea in theory, implementing it to suit our needs might prove more difficult, needless to say that if we do go down that route we should be completely ready to see it through, and remember its a long road,

[imtiaz82]

Well there is a difference between these countries (U.S, Russia) and Israel due to historical importance of Jerusalem. Al-Aqsa masjid which is part of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)’s miraj has been occupied by Israeli forces since 1967.Also, it is not only the actions of Israel but also the legitimacy of the Jewish state itself. Unlike other countries(U.S, Russia) this is a place made solely for Jewish people( I read that straight off Aerial Sharon’s interview). There is no place for muslims, Christians or anybody else. It’s true that Jews have been staying there for thousands of years, but that was along with muslims and Christians. A place of tolerance and harmony not something exclusively for Jews.

Like many I used to think that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is more of a political issue, but after reading Aerial Sharon interview in New Yorker I am bound to think otherwise. He categorically said that it’s a state SOLELY for Jews and arabs can never stay in there. It’s the founding principal of the nation.

So its not only a matter of Israeli aggression on other arab countries(which can be compared to US attack in Iraq, Russia in Chechnya), but its also a matter of handing over some of the holiest places of muslims to extremist Jewish group.

If Israel changes its policy and becomes a secular country where all religious groups(muslims, Christians) can live (not just visit as tourist) and practice their faith peacefully, I have no problem in accepting them just like US or Russia.

[PS:Annonymous]

In current circumstances NO

[kilo19]

simply NEVER ........... cuz they have been doin it since their birth and will continue to do so .......... they can never live in peace with their neighbours if they are willing to kill a hundred civilians after a soldier .......... what sort of justice is this ??

[omarxizt]

Question is tough but the answer should not be. We cant recognize Israel if we want to be leaders in the Islamic world. Many Islamic countries not to mention radicals will take aim directly at our government which in the first place can be dissuaded as it needs some aspects to counter with Kashmir. Let’s think this through; understanding of situational gains can come in circle both ways. Long term gains should be recognized here not short term compensation through Israel arms/lobby or US money.

If we recognize Israel as of current we are going to destabilize our country within which is actually counter productive not only to us but also to the western power. We have a good understanding and a backdoor insight to Israel and that is positive. Let’s not break away and excommunicate our systems which can hinder our current grounds.

By the way its good to be back to Pakistanidefenceforum.com...

[1Pakistani]

THE ONLY ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION IS NO

Now there can be legal issues in pakistan for us to recognise israel and this could only divide our public. This is no simple matter and the constitution is gonna play a major role here.

THE CONSTITUTION OF THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN

PART II
Fundamental Rights and Principles of Policy

CHAPTER 2
PRINCIPLES OF POLICY

SECTION 40:

The State shall endeavour to preserve and strengthen fraternal relations among Muslim countries based on Islamic unity, support the common interests of the peoples of Asia, Africa and Latin America, promote international peace and security, foster goodwill and friendly relations among all nations and encourage the settlement of international disputes by peaceful means.

now in relation to the highlighted part there could be issues arsing from us in recognising Israel. Such step could mean we are walking on fine thread which can break at any moment in time. If constitution does cause problems than we might have to amend it and thats where the major problem will arise. To amend constitution we will have to hold referendum thus it will be in the hand of pakistani public and i dont think they will aprove it.

[Kelsier]

Right now, no. But if the Palistinians get a state of their own and they get control of East Jerusalem and the conflict is over, then yes.

[halfemtysoul]

I say no.

[Munir]

I say yes. Certain rules like peace and giving up occupied land but within the limits for both sides. Recognition is not a tool that can be used to force others. If you do not recognise the other party then there nothing to discuss nor any solution or better co-operation.

[raja]

i voted no, not that i hate them but the only reason "they can not be trusted " and our book tells us they never will be our friends, one thing we can do with them is trade if its possible in any means , and that is all, dont threat them , if they make peace in middle east on proper means then we will think about it.

[kilo19]

i dont believe this is still an issue after just wat happened in Lebenon!

[faizan khaliq]

This whole episode of war on terror ,Iraq and Afghanistan has one thing in common
It is directly addressing the Israeli security concerns.Nuclear Pakistan is considered a direct threat to Israel
it does not matter how hard we try to convince Israeli's that we don,t intend to harm them or we recognise them or sureties would not change the threat perception of Israeli's therfore the recognition is meaningless
and futile exercise.
    Pakistan has no choice to serious counter threat to Israel in case west attacks Pakistan and do political work in India to prevent them from falling into Jewish lap.Israel has to live with the reality that extensive use of west by clever use of media and press might back fire.That will be the time when stones might speak
that a Jew is hiding behind me kind of thing but for sure Pakistan will not extend recognition till foreign forces in Afghanistan

[asal-main]

Yeah, war on terrorists is morphing into something sinister and stinky, it sounds more and more like on Muslims. When they talk of  "clash of civilizations", they are bringing religion, culture, history, everything and everyone into it. This ideology is coming from western academic "priests", politicians, media, and even Pope. They need to desist talking about clashes of civilizations. Muslims will protect their faith and beliefs at all costs. Thats why they are either fools or mad men or both, because when they frame arguments in such ways, it implies war among humanity where everyone becomes guilty, or no one is innocent. It is encouragement of terrorism. Under such conditions, recognizing Israel is not possible. It targeted apartments in Lebanon with precision weapons and was not condemned for it. This attitude comes from ideology because there is no military or strategic significance in destroying apartment blocks. It would be handing victory to neocons, neolibs, and all forms of supremacist ideologies such as zionism. Israeli Jews will have to make compromises and present themselves as part of the region and its peoples.

[viper`in`style]

HI Bro it is my first post in this frum and iam going to state a debate on a critical point,
The point is that ok if pakistan recognise israel..then where the indians stand after math?? then what happend with indian -israeli relation??some point in my mind are given below

1) After recognistion of israel by pakistan...where indians are standing what the indian position??

2) Can we take trust on Jews by recognising israel that they never try any offensive acts against pakistan with india


3) Then what happed after recognistion of israel by pakistan what u think that indian-israel relation ship ceased?? continue?? because what i think israel is getting nothing from india but indians are getting some thing from israel. So after pakistan come in front israel can get allot of adventages from pakistan and we also like if pakistan recognise israel then may be many other important islamic countries will recognise israel then for israel problem resolved and for pakistan yes indeed problem resolved and then we can become turkey which is close to EU and US and Israel i think we can come better then turkey isnt it??

4) What do think that if pakistan recognise israel then what happend with pakistani relation with muslim countires like KSA,Iran.etc effect??or what??

5) if pakistan recognise israel then what happed in pakistan??internal situtations as we knows that allot of #### gahil  mulans are here then what happend??

6) And the most important point is if after recognisition of israel by pakistan the israeli -indian relation continue will effect our relation with israel??
So these there my points explain and give ur comments

[Jimmy Jimmy]

How about recognizing Taiwan as a sovereign nation too?

[Dizasta]

There is one benefit that Pakistan would derive from recognizing Israel, not being targetted. Turkey's recognition and cooperation allowed it the third largest fleet of Vipers in the world! It also allowed it to have a fighting chance of becoming a member of the European Union. If Pakistan recognizes Israel, it would most certainly get that rat-country off our backs and allow us unlimited amount of open space cooperation with China, which would see Pakistan's economy truely boom!

On the other hand, we are the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and being so, it is prohibitive for us to deal with Jews because of their betrayel and trechory with Allah!