206 replies to this topic

[Gharial]

ok that arjun thing didnt come out right as i intended. i meant the time factor not failure. And i know IN has proved to be smarter than other indian institutions.

Because they have their own design team working closely with the defence research organisation. Same is not the case with the other two armed forces who depute people to a project as a standard military posting and then remove him in the midst of stuff and comes along another person which his own set of requirements. Also there has been a lot of brain drain recently in all these prestegious defence research orgs. For example Merkava was developed with active input from actual tankers.

[crazyinsane105]

To miroslav, I hardly doubt that the IN can keep an ATV project a secret for very long. Human and electronic intel from the US and China will immediately figure out what's going on. Trust me, building a nuclear sub is not a very easy thing to hide.

[Miroslav]

To miroslav, I hardly doubt that the IN can keep an ATV project a secret for very long. Human and electronic intel from the US and China will immediately figure out what's going on. Trust me, building a nuclear sub is not a very easy thing to hide.

I know.

Perhaps you might have seen the movie The Sum of All Fears where 3 Russian scientists are missing.

TU-22 and ATV are the big questionmarks which the Indian Defence Forces PErsonnel are having in their mind. Though I am an IAF pilot I am not sure about TU-22. But ONe thing is sure that many pilots claim that its in service with IN/IAF.

Also some of the best pilots from various squadrons are trasferred (Including my squadron) and we dont have any info about them.

I dont know much about ATV but then let me recall you the 1998 Diwali which we celebrated in May instead of November/October.

After the first bunch of nuke detonations also US/China were unaware that we are going to repeat the same again in the metter of 2 days.

About the whole 1998 Nuke festival the whole world including FBI/CIA/FSB was unaware.

Cheers.

Miro

[KLAFA]

Jehangir,
That is your view, but the views of experts and defence analysts (who, quite frankly, know far more on the issue than you or I) is very different.  The fact is that there would be absolutely no reason for the "Mujahideen" to attack french contractors working for Pakistan.  india and Israel on the other hand would have reasons.  The fact is that the Mujahideen stood to gain nothing, India and Israel did.  But that is hearsay and speculation.

As it regards to Agusta and Scorpene, the 2 are virtually identical.  The Agusta is more agile, faster, has twice the endurance.  The Scorpene is quiter (but not by much) and that is the only advantage that is known.  The fact is there is not nearly enough information to state which is actually better because not enough is known about eithers weapons, sonar, and electronics.

The plus for Pakistan (WRT Agusta) is that they can be converted to Agusta 90C (the nuclear varient of the Agusta 90).  France has offered this in the past but for now there is no real benefit for it.  For PN what is necessary is more Agusta 90B (my estimate is 3 more) and export to Middle east.  Also it needs to be fitted with a land attack cruise missile...preffereably from France or China.  Pakistan should inquire from France about such possibilities, otherwise retrofit the Agusta's and enable them to fire Chinese cruise missiles (especially Redbird).  Also, it needs to look into slightly larger CHinese vessels (though before agreeing should urge China to allow them built in Pakistan to ensure quality...as Chinese arent known for that in the Submarine field).  Regardless of what happens, Pakistan needs desperately to have the capability to fire LACM from subs (underwater) at distance (~1000km at least)...and preferably with Nuclear warhead capabilities (though conventional obviously being the prefrence).

Hey Can you give me any details about agosta 90c? I coudnt find it myself.

And also I dont think transfering nuclear tech is that easy. I believe that Nuclear Nations are bound by a treaty on N tech / Equipment transfer. This may be the reason that India leased Nuc SUb Charlie from  USSR as it couldnt be sold.

Klafa

[crazyinsane105]

I know.

Perhaps you might have seen the movie The Sum of All Fears where 3 Russian scientists are missing.

TU-22 and ATV are the big questionmarks which the Indian Defence Forces PErsonnel are having in their mind. Though I am an IAF pilot I am not sure about TU-22. But ONe thing is sure that many pilots claim that its in service with IN/IAF.

Also some of the best pilots from various squadrons are trasferred (Including my squadron) and we dont have any info about them.

I dont know much about ATV but then let me recall you the 1998 Diwali which we celebrated in May instead of November/October.

After the first bunch of nuke detonations also US/China were unaware that we are going to repeat the same again in the metter of 2 days.

About the whole 1998 Nuke festival the whole world including FBI/CIA/FSB was unaware.

Cheers.

Miro

Yeah, I saw the Sum of All Fears. Not a bad movie. Getting back to topic, I would find it beleivable that there are Tu-22's in service with the IN right now. However, a nuke submarine is totally different than detonating a couple of nuke warheads. A nuke submarine under construction can be picked up by satellite quite easily (for one, just spy on all IN ports and facilities and find anything out of place). I think the IN may get an ATV in the future, but I am pretty sure they don't have one right now.

[Yahya]

Anything about the PN Agosta firing some underwater missiles??

yes.

exocet.

[sobank]

well babur is going to be the next one soon per admiral saying.

[Yahya]

well babur is going to be the next one soon per admiral saying.

        

INSHALLAH. 500km is out if indias engagement range innit? lol. we can take out there fleet without any danger:D. need to imrove naval surveilene though. and increase the targeting capability. use a sattelite...pick and shoot. lol.

[SATAN]

U-214 can dive down to a depth of 400m

Scorpene can only go till 300m

[ajeet]

U-214 can dive down to a depth of 400m

Scorpene can only go till 300m

Akulas r coming to go under agosta or 214....

[SATAN]

Akulas r coming to go under agosta or 214....

And the PC3 Orions are also coming with Harpoon ll  missiles and certain other Anti-Submarine tracking devices.  

[ajeet]

And the PC3 Orions are also coming with Harpoon ll  missiles and certain other Anti-Submarine tracking devices. 

INS Vikramaditya and ADS will be waiting with MIG 29 ks..how far P3Cs can go from shore...if u really wanna attack indian subs u ahv to go out in the open seas which will be risky with the carrier fleets ...

[SATAN]

INS Vikramaditya and ADS will be waiting with MIG 29 ks..how far P3Cs can go from shore...if u really wanna attack indian subs u ahv to go out in the open seas which will be risky with the carrier fleets ...

The F-16s are coming for The mig29s .And the Babur Cruise missiles really love the 2 measly hindian "aircraft carriers" .

[ajeet]

The F-16s are coming for The mig29s .And the Babur Cruise missiles really love the 2 measly hindian "aircraft carriers" .

i really dnt wanna start a flame war..but how far can F16s venture out...and babur is not a supersonic missile so it wont be a problem for the carrier fleet to shoot it dwn. with baraks and ohter close in weapons..500 km is th range and do think india will risk its carriers????????

[SATAN]

i really dnt wanna start a flame war..but how far can F16s venture out...and babur is not a supersonic missile so it wont be a problem for the carrier fleet to shoot it dwn. with baraks and ohter close in weapons..500 km is th range and do think india will risk its carriers????????

They dont need to go that far. If the Hindian Navy comes close to Pakistani coastal waters......then the toys come out to play.  

Pakistan's sphere of influence is the upper Arabian Sea.

[ajeet]

Performance data:


Operational range MiG-29K/MiG-29KUB, km  
- on internal fuel 1 850/1 600
- with 3 fuel drop tanks 3 000/2 700
Weapon load, kg 4 500

a mig 29 from carrier can go and hit the pak ports by keeping the carrier fleet away from danger...and it a naked truth tht PN at present have nothing formidable.none of the pak ships carry BABUR or its not navalized yet.so its out of question...

and if the P3c venture out to ocean the MIGs can take it by keeping the carrier fleet away and the range of F16s is  1,370 km which varies with load...so in no way tht orions r protected...

[Yahya]

INS Vikramaditya and ADS will be waiting with MIG 29 ks..how far P3Cs can go from shore...if u really wanna attack indian subs u ahv to go out in the open seas which will be risky with the carrier fleets ...

the rafales are coming for your airforce and so are thunders and so are f16 block 52.

the pakistani babur can take out your carriers from 500km away.

thats out if their range. hell they wont even know where the missile came from.

you accs are useless how well will your 60s harriers perform against the f7pg, rafale, f16, thunder? how well will your acula perform infront of a nueclear power agosta with nueclear tipped 1000km missiles? how well will your marines perform against SSGN and their minisubs?

[sobank]

i didnt know rafale were coming over. when did that happen. Babur is not an anti ship missile--------------yet.

The less sub sonic cruise missiles are pain in the rear end that is if you know what are they capable of.

but just for the heck of it. can your indian/russian anti missile tech take out 10 or 15 cruise missiles without a single miss. If you can then maybe you should tell america to buy your anti missile tech cause to date we dont know if pac3 can be that accurate.
=========================================================

this thread is about scorpene and agosta. Akula is welcome to be discussed but keep your carriers and mig29 out of this thread.

[sobank]

sorry double post.

[Yahya]

i didnt know rafale were coming over. when did that happen.

its the only logcal choice.
f10 is crap, typhoon too many people involved, grippen crap compared to the new indian aquisitions. etc etc etc.

i persoanly think pak playing the waiting game.

[PakShaheen]

its the only logcal choice.
f10 is crap, typhoon too many people involved, grippen crap compared to the new indian aquisitions. etc etc etc.

i persoanly think pak playing the waiting game.

Thunder and F-16 along with AWACS are only new plans to enter PAF in next 5-7 years.

It is a Naval discussion keep this fighter thing out of it.

[SATAN]

Anyone know when the 3rd AGOSTA is rolling out?
The contract was signed in 1994. It is now 2005!! and only 2 Submarines?? what the hell is taking so long?

It does not take DCN to build 2 submarines in 11 years.

[BruteBhangee]

Project-75 details

[SATAN]

Agosta
French Agosta class patrol submarine of 1490 tons displacement launched in 1974. She is powered by two SEMT-Pielstick 16 PA4185VG diesel engines of 3600 hp and one electric motor 4600 hp and one cruising motor of 23 kW providing a top speed of 20 knots dived and a range of 13600 km snorkling. She carries a single crew of 58 personnel, including seven officers. Armaments consist of Aerospatiale SM 39 Exocet anti-ship missiles launched from four 533 mm bow torpedo tubes; ECAN L5 Mod 3 dual purpose and ECAN F17 Mod 2 wire- guided torpedoes; or 36 mines carried in lieu of torpedoes.

The Agosta 90B, a direct derivative of the Agosta class in service with the French Navy and other navies, features significant improvements in acoustic discretion and detection. Pakistan has ordered three Agosta 90B submarines equipped with the MESMA AIP propulsion system and Subtics combat system.

The first member of the conventionally powered Agosta family was designed in the 1970s as a precursor of the Rubis nuclear attack submarine. By late 1999 a total of 13 Agosta-class submarines had been ordered by France, Spain and Pakistan. The original design featured innovative architectural solutions and state-of-the-art equipment. More importantly, its inherent adaptability made it an excellent candidate for a thorough upgrade, in the early 1990s, resulting in the Agosta 90B. The upgrade - which focused primarily on the combat system - incorporates the latest sensors and computer technologies.

Agosta-class submarines are ideal for missions ranging from anti-shipping and anti-submarine warfare to surveillance, intelligence gathering, mine-laying, special operations and training. French, Spanish and Pakistani Agosta-class submarines have successfully undertaken a wide variety of missions, including long patrols and major multinational exercises, in times of peace or during crises. They have operated worldwide from the Caribbean to the Mediterranean and from the Sea of Oman to the China Sea.




Specifications
Length, overall 67.90 m
Pressure hull diameter 5.33 m
Mean draught 4.97 m
Beam 6.80 m
Displacement - Geneva: 1,230 LT
- Surface displacement: 1,500 tons
- Submerged displacement: 1,750 tons
Buoyancy coefficient 14%
Periscope depth 14.20 m
Diving depth 300 m
Max. dived speed 20.5 kts
Snorting speed 10.5 kts
Surfaced speed 12 kts  
Range 8,500 nm
Endurance 45 days
Surface Search Radar Thomson CSF DRUA 33  
Sonar System:  Thomson Sintra DSUV 22; DUUA 2D  
DUUA 1D; DUUX 2; DSUV 62A towed array  
Missiles:  SSM - Aerospatiale SM 39 Exocet; launched from 21 in (533 mm) tubes  
Torpedoes:  4 - 21 in (533 mm) bow tubes. ECAN L5 Mod 3 &  
ECAN Fl7 Mod 2  

[Saad]

Specifications for comparision are:-

                                                                                      
                                               Agosta 90B----------------------Scorpene       
                                               (Without AIPS)      
    
Length Overall                             76 m------------------from 66 to 76 m

Surface displacement                   1,760 t-------1,550 /1,850

Submerged displacement                        ----------1,790 / 2,010 t

                                                                    
Maximum speed                          20 kts---------------20 kts  

Diving depth                               >300 m----------------->350 m

Complement                               36-----------------------31

Endurance                                  >60 days----------------45 days

                                                                            

Saad

Edited by Saad, 09 October 2005 - 11:09 PM.

[scorpion4]

Yeah, I saw the Sum of All Fears. Not a bad movie. Getting back to topic, I would find it beleivable that there are Tu-22's in service with the IN right now. However, a nuke submarine is totally different than detonating a couple of nuke warheads. A nuke submarine under construction can be picked up by satellite quite easily (for one, just spy on all IN ports and facilities and find anything out of place). I think the IN may get an ATV in the future, but I am pretty sure they don't have one right now.

If a country can make a satellite and has its own remote sensing satellite in space than it also knows what technologies satellite uses to detect subs etc and methods to conceal them.

Proof of Methods of Concealment:CIA not knowing abt Indian Nuke Tests.

Moreover a satellite TES-1 is already in space giving us the required knowledge and more are to follow.

Recently a Radar Detecting satellite and Cartosat  were launched.

Radar Detecting Satellite would give us a position of all radars in China\Pakistan and Cartosat is for detailed digital terrain maps for terrain hugging Brahmos.


Proof of Methods of Concealment:CIA not knowing abt Indian Nuke Tests.

The potential sale of deadly TU-22 Backfire or the even longer-range TU-95 Bear aircraft has a direct impact on U.S. national security. The supersonic Backfire bomber was designed to carry nuclear-tipped high-speed missiles in order to attack U.S. Navy carrier battle groups.

The Backfire has a maximum range of 4,000 miles and can fly at nearly twice the speed of sound. The swing-wing aircraft can cruise at low altitudes and penetrate highly defended airspace with a quick supersonic dash.

The Backfire bomber is armed with four Kh-22 "Kitchen" cruise missiles made by the Russian Raduga design bureau. The Kh-22 missile is a rocket-powered weapon capable of reaching out 300 miles or more at speeds in excess of six times the speed of sound.

The Russian version of the Kh-22 was reportedly equipped with a nuclear warhead equal to 300,000 tons of TNT.


If a govt does not acknowledge it does not mean transfers have not been made.

When Chinese can buy the Tu-22 on what assumption do u base ur views that India will not go in for that.Just because u have not seen a pic of that in India yet?

As u might have heard the pilots who flew Mig-25 Foxbat were not allowed togive details of their mission to the media.And i think the same goes for those who fly Tu-22.

[YellowSubmarine]

Hi miroslav,

How is the Malaysian accquired Scorpene different from India's?

-------------------------------

How does the Scorpene/Agosta compare to the American Subs?

[Miroslav]

Hi Yellow Sub,

Please check the official website of DCN who makes Agosta and Scorpene.

Malaysia is equipped with both.

you will get all the info there.

www.dcn.fr

thanks,

Miro

[YellowSubmarine]

DearMiroslav,

Your quote:

"Also the Indo-Frech Scorpene project is very much different from the Chilean and Malayasian Scorpene project."

I did not get any such info from the DCN site (me thinks,  obvious enough), hence my question.

Do you know of any specific contexts/parameters? Thanks.

YB

[YellowSubmarine]

YS

[chandrahass]

India has accuired scorpenes basicaly for coastal defence and to counter PN agosta 90-B .

with non nuclear SSN the diving depth does not play much of significane it is the signature of the boat and the swiftness that matters

DCN has already stated that scorpene are virtually a nuclear sub which can be fitted with a small nuclear reactor , if india goes successfully with ATV then it seem very likely to have some scorpenes with a nuclear reactors

but akula 's are taking IN strategic strike capability a long of good

[ajeet]

Specifications for comparision are:-

                                                                                     
                                               Agosta 90B----------------------Scorpene      
                                               (Without AIPS)       
     
Length Overall                             76 m------------------from 66 to 76 m

Surface displacement                   1,760 t-------1,550 /1,850

Submerged displacement                        ----------1,790 / 2,010 t

                                                                     
Maximum speed                          20 kts---------------20 kts 

Diving depth                               >300 m----------------->350 m

Complement                               36-----------------------31

Endurance                                  >60 days----------------45 days

                                                                             

Saad

i think diving depth is more for agosta and endurance is almost same

[chandrahass]

i think diving depth is more for agosta and endurance is almost same

i guess i asy again for a non nuclear sub diving depth is not a imporatant thing, it is the power to sustain underwater that matters , with PN agosta's IN scorpene 's will be the perfect counter balance ,But with project 971 akulaa class inidan navy will make PN to think?

[Miroslav]

i think diving depth is more for agosta and endurance is almost same

I am sorry.

Officialy (DCN Site) Diving Depth for Scorpene is 350 mtrs (Maxx) where as its 300 mtrs for Agosta-90B.

Also Endurance figures are also same except In is making/adding some additional stuff on it.

Thanks,

Miro

[Miroslav]

DearMiroslav,

Your quote:

"Also the Indo-Frech Scorpene project is very much different from the Chilean and Malayasian Scorpene project."

I did not get any such info from the DCN site (me thinks,  obvious enough), hence my question.

Do you know of any specific contexts/parameters? Thanks.

YB

Dear YB,

France made Scorpene's for Chilie and Malaysia, whereas IN is gonna make Scorpene's at home in MDL. (www.mdlindia.com), so it is obvious that IN will be adding some home made and Russian/Israeli/German stuff into it.

Also timespan is of approximately 10 years for 6 subs so there will be upgrades in the every new sub according to the introduction of the new technology.

As you know the deal has been just signed so may be we have to wait for some time to know the exact contexts/parameters.

Thanks,

Miro

[aziqbal]

Dear YB,

France made Scorpene's for Chilie and Malaysia, whereas IN is gonna make Scorpene's at home in MDL. (www.mdlindia.com), so it is obvious that IN will be adding some home made and Russian/Israeli/German stuff into it.

Also timespan is of approximately 10 years for 6 subs so there will be upgrades in the every new sub according to the introduction of the new technology.

As you know the deal has been just signed so may be we have to wait for some time to know the exact contexts/parameters.

Thanks,

Miro

Why doesnt india ever make thier own, why do they always have to buy from others. By the way should you not be feeding your poor people instead of buying military equipment.

[Miroslav]

Why doesnt india ever make thier own, why do they always have to buy from others. By the way should you not be feeding your poor people instead of buying military equipment.

I can ask you the same questions.

Besides IN have built/building world class surface ships that includes some deadly destroyers,frigates and corvettes, an aircraft carrier is being built.

Regarding submarine anytime near 2007/8 IN gonna deliver ATV (nuke powered) Sub.

So relax.

Miro

[aziqbal]

I can ask you the same questions.

Besides IN have built/building world class surface ships that includes some deadly destroyers,frigates and corvettes, an aircraft carrier is being built.

Regarding submarine anytime near 2007/8 IN gonna deliver ATV (nuke powered) Sub.

So relax.

Miro

But pakistan make many things, JF17, K8, Al-Khalid, Al-Zarra, Jalat missile boats etc etc. And people dont die of hunger in pakistan. How many people die on streets of india because of people like salam khan. Its not his fault people sleep on streets so he has to drive on footpath.

[Lightning F57]

so it is obvious that IN will be adding some home made and Russian/Israeli/German stuff into it.

Will the french give India the permission to add sub systems into the subs?, why would they want to loose out when their own equipment can be added on Subs they make.

I am sorry.

Officialy (DCN Site) Diving Depth for Scorpene is 350 mtrs (Maxx) where as its 300 mtrs for Agosta-90B.

Also Endurance figures are also same except In is making/adding some additional stuff on it.

Thanks,

Miro

The following website says due to HLES 80 steel being used the diving depth of the Agosta sub is 350m.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/agosta/

The DCN website states diving depth for both Agosta and scopene subs to be greater than 300m.  Where did you get max 300m for agosta and 350m for scorpene from.  The Agosta 90b has a double hull, which improves its diving capability.

http://www.dcn.fr/us/produits/sous_marin_attaque.html#4

Where did you get your endurance figures from as well, they are no way the same for both subs.  Scorpene 45 days....Agosta 90B MORE THAN 60 days.  Thats a big difference.

[Miroslav]

But pakistan make many things, JF17, K8, Al-Khalid, Al-Zarra, Jalat missile boats etc etc.

JF-17 is made in Pakistan and By Pakistan??????? Sorry never heared that.

Just in that case HAL have made fighters like MiG-21/27, Jaguar and Su-30 MKI under TOT. Gnat is from the history and HF-24 was our first indegeneous Fighter.

In transport HAL have made HS-748, Do-228 under TOT.

K-8???

Indian Trainers.

HPT-32 (Piston)
HJT-16 (Intermediate)
HJT-36 (Intermediate)
CAT (AJT Under Deveopment)

ALH (14 variants) is the first Indian helicopter

Indian Helicopters made under TOT

Chetak (Chetan is the advanced version)
Cheetah (Lancer is the advaced version)
LAH/LCH (Under Development)

Indian Navy Shipbuilding.

6 Nilgiri Class Frigates (Delivered between 1972 to 1981)
8 Veer (Tarantul 1) Class guided missile Corvettes (delivered between 1991 to 2002)
4 Type 25 Khukhri Class Guided missile corvettes (Delivered between 1989 to 1991)
4 Type 25 A Kora class Guided missile corvettes (Delivered between 1998 to 2004)
3 Type 16A Brahmaputra Class Guided Missile Frigates (Delivered Between 2000 to 2005)

3 Type 16 Godavri Class Guided Missile Frigates (Delivered Between 1983 to 1988)

3 Type 15 Delhi Class (Mother of all) Guided Missile Destroyers ( Delivered Between 1997 to 2001)

Future Commissions

6 Scorpenes Subs to be made under TOT
3 Project 17 Stealth Guided Missile Frigates are being built and expected delivery is between 2006 and 2007
1 Type 15A Banglore Class Stealth Guided Missile Frigate is being built and expected delivery by 2007.


1 ATV (Nuke Powered Sub under construction)
1 ADS (Aircraft Carrier Under Construction)


Apart from this many Large Patrol vessels and tankers have been made by the IN. Stay in touch and me or the other fellas will keep informing you.

And people dont die of hunger in pakistan. How many people die on streets of india because of people like salam khan. Its not his fault people sleep on streets so he has to drive on footpath.

Nothing related to the topic.

Miro