206 replies to this topic

[sobank]

Dont know anything about them. need comparison and which one is better.

[Miroslav]

Scorpene,

You can visit the official website of DCN who has made both the subs.

www.dcn.fr

Cheers,

Miroslav

[ThE_UnReAcHaBLe]

i realy dont know much but Agosta can dive deeper (350 meters 50 meters more than scorpene ) and it can also stay much longer underwater than scorpene(68 days while scorpene is 50days) But scorpene is quiter than Agostas. The scorpene can carry 18 torpedos where as Agosta carries 16 .Another advantage is that Agostas can be converted into nuclear submariens . No wonder french navy also uses Agostas .
WASLAM

[Miroslav]

Can be.............. could be......................


Do it first.

Even the Kilo's of IN can fire underwater SAM and Club missiles (Range-200 Kms).

Anything about the PN Agosta firing some underwater missiles??

Also French have made Scorpene for export and not for their own use. Chile and Malaysia are their customers.

No wonder french navy also uses Agostas

No wonder Malaysia didn't bought Agosta-90B from their fellow Islamic country Pakistan but bought Scorpene from the french.

Cheers,

Miroslav

[Lightning F57]

No wonder Malaysia didn't bought Agosta-90B from their fellow Islamic country Pakistan but bought Scorpene from the french.

Actually the decision came down to finances as Malaysia and France worked out a deal where part of the payment will be paid by exporting palm oil.

Even the Kilo's of IN can fire underwater SAM and Club missiles (Range-200 Kms).

Anything about the PN Agosta firing some underwater missiles??

Yes the exocets can be fired from underwater as well.

http://www.globalsec...stan/khalid.htm

http://www.naval-tec...rojects/agosta/

[Miroslav]

Actually the decision came down to finances as Malaysia and France worked out a deal where part of the payment will be paid by exporting palm oil.
Yes the exocets can be fired from underwater as well.

http://www.globalsec...stan/khalid.htm

http://www.naval-tec...rojects/agosta/

Thanks for you response bro,

Yes Agosta can Fire underwater Exocet but you need have the facility with PN agosta's. So do it quickly.

Coz IN has already fitted Clubs and Underwater SAM's on 5 KILO's and rest will be fitted in next 5 years.

Also Secondly scorpene is bascally meant for export so no wonder French Navy won't use it.

Also the Indo-Frech Scorpene project is very much different from the Chilean and Malayasian Scorpene project.

India is gonna have around 12 scorpene's to counter Agosta's as well as the other threats from PN and Chinese Navy (If they are present in Gwadar).

Regards,

Miroslav

P.S: - I am sorry if my earlier post was too offensive.

[Jehangir]

Scorpene is more quiter then Agosta-90b.
So What If We upgrade Current Agust's To Scorpeon Standard.

[Miroslav]

And how will you do that Jehangir????



Miroslav

[Lightning F57]

Thanks for you response bro,

Yes Agosta can Fire underwater Exocet but you need have the facility with PN agosta's. So do it quickly.

Coz IN has already fitted Clubs and Underwater SAM's on 5 KILO's and rest will be fitted in next 5 years.

Also Secondly scorpene is bascally meant for export so no wonder French Navy won't use it.

Also the Indo-Frech Scorpene project is very much different from the Chilean and Malayasian Scorpene project.

India is gonna have around 12 scorpene's to counter Agosta's as well as the other threats from PN and Chinese Navy (If they are present in Gwadar).

Regards,

Miroslav

P.S: - I am sorry if my earlier post was too offensive.

As far as I know the three PN subs have the capability to launch the exocets from beneath the sea, unless stated otherwise please provide some further information.

With respect to the 12 Scorpenes for IN (As far as I know IN is interested in 6 only for now), Im still awaiting further information for this as no deal has been signed for a long while and further details regarding the sub have not been given aswell, so to speculate and say it will be different to the other Scorpene subs of Malaysia and Chilea is mear speculation.

[crazyinsane105]

If India goes for 12 Scorpenes, then PN will most likely build three more Agostas and get at least three other subs (probably Yuan class). Anyway Miroslav, where in the world did you hear 12 Scorpenes? I have read that the IN plans to build only 6.

[ThE_UnReAcHaBLe]

Thanks for you response bro,

Yes Agosta can Fire underwater Exocet but you need have the facility with PN agosta's. So do it quickly.

Coz IN has already fitted Clubs and Underwater SAM's on 5 KILO's and rest will be fitted in next 5 years.

Also Secondly scorpene is bascally meant for export so no wonder French Navy won't use it.

Also the Indo-Frech Scorpene project is very much different from the Chilean and Malayasian Scorpene project.

India is gonna have around 12 scorpene's to counter Agosta's as well as the other threats from PN and Chinese Navy (If they are present in Gwadar).

Regards,

Miroslav

P.S: - I am sorry if my earlier post was too offensive.

a very old article , but quite informative . just read the Bold part .

India feared behind Karachi bomb blast

http://www.thereport...wfull.asp?ID=86

May 13,2002

ASHGABAT (PPA) -- European and Russian observers have voiced similar opinion that, in all likelihood, India may have engineered the recent brutal killing of French engineers in Karachi who were overseeing construction of Khalid class (Agosta B90) submarines, reports PPA correspondents Tariq Saeedi in Ashgabat and Sergi Pyatakov in Moscow. "Only India stands to benefit from this massacre [of French engineers]," said a western European diplomat based in Central Asia. When asked to explain his point of view, he said, "India has recently concluded agreement to build six Scorpene class French submarines. First of these submarines will be ready in 2006 and till that time India has no way to counter the sub-surface superiority of Pakistan's Agosta [submarines]. Moreover, Indian shipbuilding industry is in no shape to undertake construction of submarines right away. It will be at least 2 to 3 years before India can up date its shipbuilding facilities to begin construction of Scorpene. India will benefit immensely if [submarine] construction programme of Pakistan is thwarted."

Similar view, with a new twist, was expressed by Genandy Kamarov (not his real name), a retired officer of KGB. He said, "Forgive my perverted mind if I see sinister designs where there may be none but the Karachi incident smacks of RAW-MOSSAD connection." Kamarov explained that according to his own sources, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon called in Mossad director Ephraim Halevy in the third week of February and gave 'precise instructions' to 'get the assassins of Danny Pearl.'

According to Kamarov's theory, 'precise instructions' to get Pearl's killers include close collaboration with RAW because Pakistan is one of the few countries where Israel does not have an effective network of its own. Referring to a recent incident where an American 'free lance journalist' was detained at Karachi airport because he was carrying a video film showing entrance gate of Karachi central prison, Kamarov said someone high up intervened and procured release of the 'journalist' along with the video.

Why the video of main entrance of Karachi jail ?, asked Kamarov. Is it part of Israeli plan to get at killers of Pearl?, he wondered. Elaborating on his theory, Kamarov said, "It is the first time since 1972 that an Israeli prime minister has issued direct orders to get at assassins of a Jew. Now, if we assume that RAW and MOSSAD are working jointly to get at Pearl's killers -- and there are reasons to assume that they are working together. Pearl, before his kidnapping, was staying with an Indian lady in Karachi who had been denied Pakistani visa but somehow managed to get it and came over to Karachi.

The same Indian lady intervened for release of the American journalist who was carrying video of Karachi jail. What is the connection between Pearl and this other American journalist, and who is that Indian lady?" "Now, remember that in the shadowy world of espionage and betrayal, there are no friends and no enemies. We all have our jobs to do and we work without emotion, in cold blood. If RAW is helping Mossad get the Pearl killers, RAW will want something in return. That 'something' can be a workable plan to halt Pakistani submarine plan because at the moment Indian armed forces are superior to Pakistan in every respect but one : They don't have anything to counter the threat posed by Agosta submarines."

For all intent and purpose, it appears that Kamarov's theory stands on solid ground because the Karachi massacre seems to have achieved a heavy blow to Pakistan's Agosta 90B submarine programme. By extension, it has also caused a substantial damage to Pakistan's economy in terms of investors' confidence. No one but India stands to gain from this tragedy. Concluding his remarks, Kamarov said, "Indians cannot hope to get their Scorpene submarines till 2006 and they will do everything to prevent Pakistan from getting an edge over India in terms of sub-surface vessels till that time."

The fact that India's shipbuilding facilities are in shambles and India has no way to build submarine quickly, is supported by Strategic Affairs, a highly respected professional journal, which carried these remarks in its September 2001 issue : "Ironically, the simulator acquisition is taking place at a time when India's domestic submarine-building programme is mired in uncertainty because of the poor state of its shipyards." News from Indian quarters also suggests India's undisguised happiness over the sad incident. Indian Express on 9 May 2002 quoted a jubilant Indian naval analyst : ‘‘There will no doubt be a loss of confidence among the French. Other group of specialists from France will be apprehensive about coming to Pakistan." says Commodore Uday Bhaskar, Deputy Director, India’s Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA).

Given the fact that some of India's 'strategic assets' are scattered along its coastline, within easy reach of silent Agosta, India seems quite willing to make all efforts to halt Pakistan's indigenous manufacturing plan of sub-surface boats. Failure to do so is not desirable for Indian policy makers because in that case they will have to remain subdued till 2006 when first Scorpene will be able to set sails with Indian flag. The Indian Navy plans to build 26 submarines in the next 30 years but the only shipyard capable of building them, Mazgaon Dock in Mumbai, needs a considerable infusion of money to develop the infrastructure.

There is no indication yet that the Defence Ministry has that kind of money. Indian attention is now focused on the French Scorpene submarine, which is to be built in India under license from DCN. Here too, the poor state of infrastructure at Mazgaon Dock could be an obstacle. Even if funds are released by the year-end, it could take two-to-three years to modernize the yard. Scorpene has been designed and developed jointly by DCN (Naval Construction Directorate) of France and Izar (formerly Bazan) of Spain. Under code name Project 75, India is planning to build and acquire 30 submarines, raising the total number of sub surface vessels in its fleet to 45 within next 30 years. Scorpene, hailed as "silent killer" is the first submarine India plans to build.

Later, the construction plans may include Russian Amur class submarines. Scorpene is said to be superior to Agosta although no substantial reasons are offered to prove its superiority. In realistic and practical terms, Scorpene is inferior to Agosta in all respects but one : it provides a more 'silent' platform. The main advantage conventional submarines such as Agosta and Scorpene have over nuclear submarines is their element of surprise. A conventional submarine moves silently while a nuclear submarine makes a peculiar 'signature noise', created by its atomic reactors.

Under optimal thermal conditions, a conventional submarine like Agosta or Scorpene is almost impossible to detect in deep waters. The only drawback of conventional vis-à-vis atomic submarines is that they have to come up periodically to 'snorkel' and charge their batteries. This drawback has also been rectified with introduction of MESMA (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) independent air propulsion system which gives it under-water endurance quite comparable to nuclear submarines.

Both Agosta and Scorpene are equipped with this system. Except for 'noise factor' Scorpene, though pricier, is not superior to Agosta. Scorpene has a maximum range of 6400 nautical miles at 8 knots while Agosta can go almost twice that distance at higher speed : 11000 nautical miles at 11 knots. Scorpene has a rated endurance of 50 days while Agosta has the endurance of 68 days, a clear advantage when you are operating away from your home base. Both Scorpene and Agosta can operate at a depth of more than 350 meters. Agosta has the ability to 'sprint' for a reasonable distance at a speed exceeding 40 knots.

According to a report carried by Hindustan Times on 22 February 2002, highly-placed sources in New Delhi and Moscow informed that India is negotiating with Russia for the lease of an unfinished Akula-II (Shark) Bars class nuclear submarine. Work on this submarine was about 85 per cent complete when its construction stopped in 1996. This unfinished submarine is reportedly "sitting" at the Amur Shipbuilding Plant at Komsomolsk-na-Amur in eastern Siberia. Negotiations for its lease have been going on for over three years. It is expected that by the end of this year India will get possession of this submarine which is capable of launching atomic warheads.

Another indication of Indian Navy's nuclear ambitions also came from Hindustan Times, which on 15 February 2002, informed that officers of the Indian Navy and Air Force have commenced training at the Bhabha Atomic Research Centre (BARC), Trombay, to learn how to handle nuclear devices.

A nuclear submarine, even though equipped with nuclear warheads, will be ineffective against Pakistan for the time being because it will lose its element of surprise against stealthy Agosta 90B. By derailing Agosta project, India can hope to maintain sub surface superiority till 2006 when its Scorpene submarines will begin floating out of the construction dock. Reportedly, India also has 3 Amur class submarines in advanced stage of construction in Russia though the information could not be confirmed from independent sources. India is also aware of the painful fact that with retirement of INS Vikram from the service, Indian Navy has only one aircraft carrier, INS Viraat. The alleged aquisition of the STOBAR carrier Gorshkov and the MiG-29K's to operate from it are not going to be enough to provide the kind of air superiority India craves - the sortie rate from this carrier isn't enough and the aircraft doesn't have the payload/range of a catapult launched type.-PPA

Yes Agosta can Fire underwater Exocet but you need have the facility with PN agosta's. So do it quickly.

i dont know what you are talking about .Talk about facilities . Pakistan already builds the submarine with tot from France . Exocet are a part of Agosta 90B deal . its rediculous to say PN went spent more than Billion $s on a Submarine which cannot fire under water missile unless you have some info to share with us ??

"The first Agosta will have AIP retrofitted while the remaining two will be built from kits supplied in Pakistan.Pakistani Agosta 90B subs will have the first application of the French SUBTICS integrated combat system.In brief this system integrates all acoustic and non-acoustic sensor inputs,weapons, navigation systems, command and weapon control systems on six twin screen consoles.Subtics sonar systems include a cylindricalbow array,flank array,active array,towed array,intercept array and obsyacle avoidance array.Above water sensors include search and attack periscopes, navigation radar and ESM. The Agosta 90B has 4 torpedo tubes and 16 weapon spaces for a mix of F17 Mod.2 torpedoes and Exocet SM39 Sub launched anti-ship missiles.Simultaneous engagement and weapon launch is possible for 2 missiles, or 2wire-guided torpedoes,or one ordinary torpedo and one missile.The MESMA AIP system allows for a fivefold or more endurance capability while submerged.Incidentally the German type 212 with a fuel-cell AIP can stay submerge for upto 2 weeks and can make 8kts without using her battery."

http://www.pakdef.in...avy/agosta.html

Also Secondly scorpene is bascally meant for export so no wonder French Navy won't use it.

Yes thats what i am saying that Scorpene is only meant for exports while French navy prefers Agostas , simple as that .

India is gonna have around 12 scorpene's to counter Agosta's as well as the other threats from PN and Chinese Navy (If they are present in Gwadar).

From what is available on the net India is currently negotiating for 6 scorpenes not 12 and even that isnt sighned yet . Any way if india does go for Scorpene PN will simply build more Agostas .

WASALAM

[sobank]

compare the two subs.
http://www.naval-tec...jects/scorpene/
http://www.naval-tec...rojects/agosta/

its interesting to see that there is not much difference in the two. perhaps for Pakistani purposes agosta will be ok.

Only one difference that i can put my hand on is

payload of scorpene>agosta with a 12% difference.

sensor suit looks also different but it might be the lack of information on agosta page that you will be able to see on scorpene page. for example, weapons are in greater detail on agosta page but not on scorpene and scorpene has more detail on mesma. Nevertheless both contain almost the same features.

propulsion engine of the scorpene has more power than agosta. In matter of sonar suit, again we face the same situation. agosta b either doesnt have the same thing as scorpene or they just left the detail.

regarding stealth well i sincerely doubt that one will be inferior than another. both use the same prop. and basic construction of the both subs. are same.

I see the major diffenrence in sonar and sensor suit. it looks like agosta is not as good as scorpene but again we dont know (or atleast i dont) that what kind of sytem our agosta will be using.

So for now all i can say is that both are almost the same. with a little more upgrading the agosta can be close match for scorpene if not equal. but for practical warfare as the artical above suggests, i think agosta is way better than scorpene.

why are we claiming scorpene to be more silence? DO french make the same claim actually saying that the agosta is more noisier? please give a source and reason. thanks

somehow the above artical missed my eyes so i wrote my post without reading it. but you can see that my analysis closley matches the above one.

[sobank]

DCN site reports 6 scorpenes for india not 12.

[Lightning F57]

why are we claiming scorpene to be more silence? DO french make the same claim actually saying that the agosta is more noisier? please give a source and reason. thanks

As far as i can tell I have not come across any source that says the Scorpene sub is more silence than the Agosta 90Bs that pak has. What I do know however is that the Scorpene subs were made with more stealth characteristics in mind which would make them harder to detect, however the silence factor does not fall into this as the stealth features will mostly be there to reduce sonar detection not the sort of noise a diesel power sub makes.

[Miroslav]

Guyz,

India to buy 6 scorpene from france and 6 more to build at MDL under TOT.

Anyways about signing the deal as I have posted in the other thread that India is not going to buy or sign anything untill the UNSC elections in Sept.2005.

India wants to put the pressure on France by showing them the carrot of Mirage and Scorpene.

Anyways now HDW is also in the race, so lets see who bags the deal.


Also Dear Unreachable whatever goes wrong in PAK dont blame to us. Even for recent blasts in the mosque you guyz were blaming us.

I will try to find the link where the commissioner or similar rank person of Sindh was telling the media that India has nothing to do with it.

Regards,

Miroslav

[Miroslav]

Guyz,

Please have a look at this.


Project 75

Project 75 will be the Indian Navy's new, standard submarine in the 21st century. It will be conventionally powered and is not to be confused with the nuclear-powered Advanced Technology Vessel, which is also under development. Reportedly, the Navy has planned for 24 Project 75 submarines over a period of 30 years. The first vessel is expected to be laid down in 2002, launched in 2004/05 and commissioned in 2006/07. An AIP (Air Independent Propulsion) system might be fitted, providing that the technology is successful.

In February 2001, then-incumbent Chief of Naval Staff - Admiral Sushil Kumar, commented on the Project 75 program by stating, "Our emphasis will be on re-configuration to build more silent and hunt-kill submarines equipped with long-range weapons and advanced electronic warfare systems." The Project 75 submarine program would entail re-activating the submarine building facility at MDL in Mumbai, which previously built two Shishumar {HDW 209} Class submarines under license from HDW, Germany. Admiral Kumar stated that the work on upgrading the submarine building facilities at MDL had commenced. Admiral Kumar had previously stated that Project 75 would be a locally re-designed variant of the Shishumar Class, with a tube-launched missile capability. In fact, the first two submarines were reportedly designated as the 'Modified Shishumar Class' and were given pennant numbers of S48 and S49. In an interview to Business India in July/August 2000, Captain S.V. Nair (retd.) - former Chairman and Managing Director of Mazagon Dock Ltd. (MDL) - stated that the Project 75 program was on hold as the designs were still being debated.

India Defence Consultants reported that German Defence Minister Rudolf Scharping was in India on a six-day visit, from 22-28 February 2001, and held wide ranging discussions from strategy to hardware and is likely that he was indirectly selling the HDW kit for the Project 75 submarine. This suggests that the Project 75 program might have been based on the Shishumar Class, before the Indian Naval Design Organisation decided to move on to more powerful and efficient platforms. This theory gained more credence in June 2001, in an interesting twist of events, when the Ministry of Defence gave its stamp of approval for acquiring the Scorpene Class - codenamed Project 75 - from DCN International, France. DCN International is initially expected to deliver 12 submarines - six to be built in France and the rest to be built in India, under a technology transfer program.

Regards,

Miroslav

[IDonT]

As far as i can tell I have not come across any source that says the Scorpene sub is more silence than the Agosta 90Bs that pak has.  What I do know however is that the Scorpene subs were made with more stealth characteristics in mind which would make them harder to detect, however the silence factor does not fall into this as the stealth features will mostly be there to reduce sonar detection not the sort of noise a diesel power sub makes.

Silence factor does fall into this, to reduced sonar dectictability, you need to reduced the noise. There is no radar underwater.

[ThE_UnReAcHaBLe]

Also Dear Unreachable whatever goes wrong in PAK dont blame to us. Even for recent blasts in the mosque you guyz were blaming us.

I will try to find the link where the commissioner or similar rank person of Sindh was telling the media that India has nothing to do with it.

Regards,

Miroslav

Dear Miroslav ,
Those words are of european diplomats/analysts , not of Pakistani officials .So it isnt Pakistan which is blaming india but the european analyst .And also it is not Pakistan which blames everything on India ,infact its the otherway around . It is the Indian Govt which has been blaming Pakistan for all its trobules from Kashmir struglle to riots in Gujrat etc ..Any way i dont want to get into this discussion coz this a comparison thread between scorpene and Agostas. And also my point for posting the article was not to blame india at all , I posted it coz it had some comparison between scorpene and Agostas , and i already told ya before posting the article to "Just read the BOLD part" which i have highlighted coz only that part is on the topic . Any way heres the bold part again which i wanted u to read.

Scorpene is said to be superior to Agosta although no substantial reasons are offered to prove its superiority. In realistic and practical terms, Scorpene is inferior to Agosta in all respects but one : it provides a more 'silent' platform. The main advantage conventional submarines such as Agosta and Scorpene have over nuclear submarines is their element of surprise. A conventional submarine moves silently while a nuclear submarine makes a peculiar 'signature noise', created by its atomic reactors.

Under optimal thermal conditions, a conventional submarine like Agosta or Scorpene is almost impossible to detect in deep waters. The only drawback of conventional vis-à-vis atomic submarines is that they have to come up periodically to 'snorkel' and charge their batteries. This drawback has also been rectified with introduction of MESMA (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) independent air propulsion system which gives it under-water endurance quite comparable to nuclear submarines.

Both Agosta and Scorpene are equipped with this system. Except for 'noise factor' Scorpene, though pricier, is not superior to Agosta. Scorpene has a maximum range of 6400 nautical miles at 8 knots while Agosta can go almost twice that distance at higher speed : 11000 nautical miles at 11 knots. Scorpene has a rated endurance of 50 days while Agosta has the endurance of 68 days, a clear advantage when you are operating away from your home base. Both Scorpene and Agosta can operate at a depth of more than 350 meters. Agosta has the ability to 'sprint' for a reasonable distance at a speed exceeding 40 knots.

WASALAM

[Jehangir]

And how will you do that Jehangir????
Miroslav

With french and italian Assistance

[Miroslav]

Jehangir,

My view is very simple.

The Karachi blast in which French Engineers got killed it India is/was not responsible for it.

It was your own Mujaheedin.

Otherwise the Pakitsani Government would have taken the necessary steps to taught us a leson.

Also regarding the upgarde what I mean is with Italian or French support also you can't do it coz,

1) Both the submarines have very different charachteristics.
2) India is procuring Scorpene to counter the Agosta and french are 'baniyas' they will sell the technology to the nation who pays them well.

Regards,

Miroslav

[omega11]

is your name Saurabh? BTW

[Lightning F57]

Silence factor does fall into this, to reduced sonar dectictability, you need to reduced the noise. There is no radar underwater.

You miss read what I wrote, i said Sonar not Radar. In terms of underwater Sonar is type of a Radar but uses sound waves. The stealth characteristics applied on modern subs are there to help reduce the signature they give off when being scanned underwater.

[tank131]

Jehangir,

My view is very simple.

The Karachi blast in which French Engineers got killed it India is/was not responsible for it.

It was your own Mujaheedin.

Otherwise the Pakitsani Government would have taken the necessary steps to taught us a leson.

Also regarding the upgarde what I mean is with Italian or French support also you can't do it coz,

1) Both the submarines have very different charachteristics.
2) India is procuring Scorpene to counter the Agosta and french are 'baniyas' they will sell the technology to the nation who pays them well.

Regards,

Saurabh

That is your view, but the views of experts and defence analysts (who, quite frankly, know far more on the issue than you or I) is very different. The fact is that there would be absolutely no reason for the "Mujahideen" to attack french contractors working for Pakistan. india and Israel on the other hand would have reasons. The fact is that the Mujahideen stood to gain nothing, India and Israel did. But that is hearsay and speculation.

As it regards to Agusta and Scorpene, the 2 are virtually identical. The Agusta is more agile, faster, has twice the endurance. The Scorpene is quiter (but not by much) and that is the only advantage that is known. The fact is there is not nearly enough information to state which is actually better because not enough is known about eithers weapons, sonar, and electronics.

The plus for Pakistan (WRT Agusta) is that they can be converted to Agusta 90C (the nuclear varient of the Agusta 90). France has offered this in the past but for now there is no real benefit for it. For PN what is necessary is more Agusta 90B (my estimate is 3 more) and export to Middle east. Also it needs to be fitted with a land attack cruise missile...preffereably from France or China. Pakistan should inquire from France about such possibilities, otherwise retrofit the Agusta's and enable them to fire Chinese cruise missiles (especially Redbird). Also, it needs to look into slightly larger CHinese vessels (though before agreeing should urge China to allow them built in Pakistan to ensure quality...as Chinese arent known for that in the Submarine field). Regardless of what happens, Pakistan needs desperately to have the capability to fire LACM from subs (underwater) at distance (~1000km at least)...and preferably with Nuclear warhead capabilities (though conventional obviously being the prefrence).

[Gharial]

Unless the french provide a nulcear reactor to fit the hull of the Agosta it would be quite difficult to convert it into a nuclear sub. By the IN does have choice with HDW coming into the race now, also MEMSA is not as good as the AIP offered by HDW.....also 209's have been equally or more successful than any other diesel submarnies in the world. Hopefully 214 will be a cheaper and better choice for the IN with Club firing capability.

[Miroslav]

That is your view, but the views of experts and defence analysts (who, quite frankly, know far more on the issue than you or I) is very different. The fact is that there would be absolutely no reason for the "Mujahideen" to attack french contractors working for Pakistan. india and Israel on the other hand would have reasons. The fact is that the Mujahideen stood to gain nothing, India and Israel did. But that is hearsay and speculation.

Thats what I told you bro.

Let me find the link where the commissioner or the equivalant rank officer of Sindh is mentioning that it is done by the terrerists and India or RAW has nothing to do with it.

Even we were blamed for the recent blasts in the mosques. I believe you know very well who was the real culprit.

Also we are doing or gonna do several projets with French. Why would we make the enemity with the french???

Also it is very simple. If you were Indian Admiral then the preferance to buy Scorpene would have to counter the Agosta's. Indian shipbuilding is very capable to do the required modifications and upgrades with French and DCN support in Scorpene to tackle the Agosta's.

French are Baniya's you give them money they will give you technology. They sold Agosta's to PN and now offering the Scorpene's to IN to tackle them.

May be in 2012 they will offer you better subs than Scorpene to tackle IN.

Cheers,

Miroslav

[sobank]

http://www.globalsec.../project-75.htm

doesnt mention 12.

http://www.indiadefe...om/Scor_sub.htm

again there is no mention of 12. (dont be to impressed by scorpene structural superiority agosta b has all that.)

at dcn they built 1 for PN but they stated the construction of the other two at pak. again no 12.

[Miroslav]

Agreed on the number 6.

Will post the links if possible in which I saw number 12.

Cheers,

Miroslav

[Gharial]

The long term naval build up plan is to induct 24 submarines in the next 30 years. This to be done with 12 foreign brand---get technology--gear up indian submarine building capacity and build indegenous indian submarine 12 quantity. The plan is already running late due to the delay's on price negotiations. The + point of having Socrpene is to guage and take technology from the best three submarine builders russian+french+german and incorporate it into an indegenous design. Anyways leaving that aside 6 submarine order will more or less go to russia for the submarine and russian lobby has been trying hard to bag the order through L&T and as per rumors flying around second built AMUR is for export probably india.

And as per my konwledge the Agosta is a larger submarine and the detection capability of a submarine is also related to its size therefore a larger submarine needs to dive deeper to attain same stealth characteristics, which is one of the reasons for bigger SSBN's and SSN's having much higher diving depth than other convential submarines.

[IDonT]

You miss read what I wrote, i said Sonar not Radar.  In terms of underwater Sonar is type of a Radar but uses sound waves.  The stealth characteristics applied on modern subs are there to help reduce the signature they give off when being scanned underwater.

No I did not miss it.
THere are two ways to detect submarines using sonar (active vs passive)
Active sonar is emitting soundwaves and listening to its echo when it hits another sub. The main draw back of this is that you will give away your location by doing so. Others can hear your active sonar. Also, the detection range much less than the other sub that can hear your active sonar. As a result, this type of sonar is rarely used.

Passive sonar detection is used through listening for noises radiated by submarines and ships. Here being quite is an advantage, the quiter you are the less likely the enemy sub can hear you. Hence the more silent you are the more stealthy you are.

[tank131]

Miroslav,

Bro, think about it...would any minister in his right mind, ever admit to an attack against another nation during peace time? What minister would ever even dream to say that RAW was behind the attack on the French. Also, because it was Paksitan which failed to adequately protect the French engineers the onus would fall on them (visa vis the French)...not India (even if RAW carried out the attack). As it relates to the Mosque, the Indians didnt really stand to gain anything from that...it wouldnt make sense to attack the mosque. However, factions which promote secratarian violence (esp. Sunni/Shia violence) verymuch stood to gain from it...and obviously they are the major culprit. The fact is RAW has a history of interfering in Pakistan, just as ISI does in India. Both are obviously accused even when it makes no sense (the Mosque attack as you stated, and multiple examples in India accusing ISI of things..."Monkey Man" being a prime example). However, in the French engineers case it makes perfect sense. But let us get off the subject of who done it and concentrate on the issue of the thread.

As you stated, with 100% accuracy (in my opinion) the French will sell to anyone willing to pay. As you stated, the scorpene is being sold to counter the agusta...and already to counter the scorpene, the French have offered to upgrade agusta to 90C status (nuclear reactor replacing Diesel engine...ect). However, the fact of the matter is that the Scorpene and Agusta are not actually very different. They have virtually identical weapons systems. They have very similar sound emmision (with Scorpene being marginally quiter...that is its one advantage). However the Agusta has a much longer range and better speed (nearly twice the distance, 18days longer at sea, and a cruising spead of 11 knots vs 8 knots) and can sprint much faster (up to 40knots). They are very comparable in all else (other than field perfomance). They really are counters for each other, with neither giving up an edge. PN is not out to defeat IN, it is out to give it a bloody nose to make it think twice of trying to blockade Paksitan, or have complete domination of Indian Ocean...obviously PN cant match the IN in size or strength...but can do enough to make sure IN doesnt try anything funny...and hte Agusta fits this.

[Lightning F57]

No I did not miss it.
THere are two ways to detect submarines using sonar (active vs passive)
Active sonar is emitting soundwaves and listening to its echo when it hits another sub. The main draw back of this is that you will give away your location by doing so. Others can hear your active sonar. Also, the detection range much less than the other sub that can hear your active sonar. As a result, this type of sonar is rarely used.

Passive sonar detection is used through listening for noises radiated by submarines and ships. Here being quite is an advantage, the quiter you are the less likely the enemy sub can hear you. Hence the more silent you are the more stealthy you are.

How exactly does that fit in with the scorpenes being more silent than the Agosta 90b subs then?

[IDonT]

How exactly does that fit in with the scorpenes being more silent than the Agosta 90b subs then?

Since scorpenes are more silent than Agosta B (allegedly), it is harder to detect via passive sonar hence it is stealthier.

[Lightning F57]

Since scorpenes are more silent than Agosta B (allegedly), it is harder to detect via passive sonar hence it is stealthier.

Hey now lets not get into speculation haha.

[Caesar]

Can be.............. could be......................
Do it first.

Even the Kilo's of IN can fire underwater SAM and Club missiles (Range-200 Kms).

Miro, you are trying to compare 80's submarine tech (Kilo Class) to late 90's/21st century tech (Agosta). And also, you are trying to compare Russian Vs France. French are reknowed for their Submarine tech, and with all due respects, Russian are not!

[Miroslav]

Miro, you are trying to compare 80's submarine tech (Kilo Class) to late 90's/21st century tech (Agosta). And also, you are trying to compare Russian Vs France. French are reknowed for their Submarine tech, and with all due respects, Russian are not!

Bro Ceaser,

Please read it carefully that under what circumstances I have written it.

I am not comparing the French V/S Russians but the point is where Pakistan Navy can fire a missiles from underwater..........

5 Indian Navy Kilo's are equipped with Underwater SAM firing and Club Firing capability and remaining 5 will be upgraded in next 5 years in their Mid-Life Refit.

Also all the IN's KILO's are not 80's tech.

INS Sindhugosh S55 (30 April 1986) - Refit Complete
INS Sindhuvaj S56 (12 June 1987)
INS Sindhuraj S57 (20 October 1987) - Refit Complete
INS Sindhuvir S58 (26 August 1988) - Refit Complete
INS Sindhuratna S59 (22 December 1988) - Refit Complete
INS Sindhukesari S60 (16 February 1989) - Refit Complete
INS Sindhukirti S61 (04 January 1990)
INS Sindhuvijay S62 (08 March 1991) - Undergoing Refit
INS Sindhurakshak S63 (24 December 1997)
INS Sindhushastra S65 (19 July 2000)

The last two INS Sindhurakshak & INS Sindhushastra are believed to be a Type 636 Submarines. Check the link below.

http://www.naval-tec...kilo/index.html

Also KILO's are called as the Black Holes for their silent operations underwater.

I am not saying that the KILO is superior to Agosta. Definately Agosta is much superior to KILO but the point is instead of saying that we will do it or we will do that lets be practical and make the analysis accordingly.

Cheers,

Miroslav

[Miroslav]

Miroslav,

Bro, think about it...would any minister in his right mind, ever admit to an attack against another nation during peace time?  What minister would ever even dream to say that RAW was behind the attack on the French.  Also, because it was Paksitan which failed to adequately protect the French engineers the onus would fall on them (visa vis the French)...not India (even if RAW carried out the attack).  As it relates to the Mosque, the Indians didnt really stand to gain anything from that...it wouldnt make sense to attack the mosque.  However, factions which promote secratarian violence (esp. Sunni/Shia violence) verymuch stood to gain from it...and obviously they are the major culprit.  The fact is RAW has a history of interfering in Pakistan, just as ISI does in India.  Both are obviously accused even when it makes no sense (the Mosque attack as you stated, and multiple examples in India accusing ISI of things..."Monkey Man" being a prime example).  However, in the French engineers case it makes perfect sense.  But let us get off the subject of who done it and concentrate on the issue of the thread.

As you stated, with 100% accuracy (in my opinion) the French will sell to anyone willing to pay.  As you stated, the scorpene is being sold to counter the agusta...and already to counter the scorpene, the French have offered to upgrade agusta to 90C status (nuclear reactor replacing Diesel engine...ect).  However, the fact of the matter is that the Scorpene and Agusta are not actually very different.  They have virtually identical weapons systems.  They have very similar sound emmision (with Scorpene being marginally quiter...that is its one advantage). However the Agusta has a much longer range and better speed (nearly twice the distance, 18days longer at sea, and a cruising spead of 11 knots vs 8 knots) and can sprint much faster (up to 40knots).  They are very comparable in all else (other than field perfomance).  They really are counters for each other, with neither giving up an edge.  PN is not out to defeat IN, it is out to give it a bloody nose to make it think twice of trying to blockade Paksitan, or have complete domination of Indian Ocean...obviously PN cant match the IN in size or strength...but can do enough to make sure IN doesnt try anything funny...and hte Agusta fits this.

A very good reply tank. I appriciate.

Regarding the French bombings may be you can also convince the other fellow members on PDF.

Also very nice annalysis on the main topic of Scorpene V/S Agosta.

As I have mentioned it somewhere that Indian Government is not going to finalize any defence deal upto September. We want to know who votes for us in the UNSC elections.

All this shopping lists are basically carrots shown to the west.

126 MRCA and Submarines especially.

Anyways you must be aware that HDW is now also in the race for bidding.

German firm keen on submarine bid; pressure to consider various offers

Sandeep Dikshit




NEW DELHI: The Navy's quest to acquire submarines has taken a new turn with diplomatic pressure being mounted on the Government to consider offers from other countries. At present, the French company, Scorpene, is the only contender with the Navy contending that it had considered and rejected the German company HDW's submarines in 2002.

However, German Chancellor Gerhard Schroder and his Economic Minister recently spoke to senior Central Ministers asking HDW to be given a chance after it was cleared of bribery allegations by the Delhi High Court, said reliable sources here.

A HDW delegation has also arrived in the country but despite being cleared by the court it has still not been invited by the Navy for discussions. All that the team has managed is an audience with a senior Navy official where it gave a presentation on the recent corporate restructuring.

With the Navy opposed to reconsidering offers from the German and Russian companies on grounds that the process would last for three years and further delay plans to replace its ageing submarines, the German company is prepared to consider offering a couple of second hand submarines to fill the gap till the new ones roll off the docks.

Sources also dispute the Navy's contention that it had evaluated the German submarines. "No technical, commercial or contractual data was on the table in India nor did any Indian delegation visit Germany. May be it was a cursory examination on the basis of the brochures because at that time the Government had placed curbs on the Defence Ministry in dealing with the company," he explained.

"Every time official talks are held, the Indians sound positive (on considering the HDW offer) but during talks with Defence Ministry officials, the optimism disappears.

Cheaper offer


The German side is believed to have offered India to build the submarines at a cheaper cost than the French and also perform 30 per cent off-set, meaning one-third of the cost would be compensated in other ways. On the table are technology transfer that could help India build more submarines on its own in the future, on-the-job training and involvement of Indian companies in building submarine construction facilities and providing spares.

India has 16 submarines of which two are at the end of their careers. It has 10 Russian submarines some of which are due to be phased out and four relatively new German submarines built by HDW. As the first submarine will become operational at least five years after the contract is signed, the Navy is keen that the decision is taken at the earliest so that it does not have to carry on with ageing vessels.

HDW is offering Class 214 Subs to India. Greece and South Korea have decided to equip their navies with Class 214 submarines. They will each be supplied with 3 submarines of this type.

Find out more on Class 214 Subs.

http://www.hdw.de/in...&inhalt_id=1117
http://www.naval-tec...jects/type_212/

Cheers,

Miroslav

[Caesar]

Bro Ceaser,

Please read it carefully that under what circumstances I have written it.

I am not comparing the French V/S Russians but the point is where Pakistan Navy can fire a missiles from underwater..........

Indian NAvy has already started doing it with 5 KILO's are remaining within next 5 years.

Also all the IN's KILO's are not 80's tech.

INS Sindhugosh S55 (30 April 1986) - Refit Complete
INS Sindhuvaj S56 (12 June 1987)
INS Sindhuraj S57 (20 October 1987) - Refit Complete
INS Sindhuvir S58 (26 August 1988) - Refit Complete
INS Sindhuratna S59 (22 December 1988) - Refit Complete
INS Sindhukesari S60 (16 February 1989) - Refit Complete
INS Sindhukirti S61 (04 January 1990)
INS Sindhuvijay S62 (08 March 1991) - Undergoing Refit
INS Sindhurakshak S63 (24 December 1997)
INS Sindhushastra S65 (19 July 2000)

The last two  INS Sindhurakshak & INS Sindhushastra are believed to be a Type 636 Submarines. Check the link below.

http://www.naval-tec...kilo/index.html

Also KILO's are called as the Black Holes for their silent operations underwater.

I am not saying that the KILO is superior to Agosta. Definately Agosta is much superior to KILO but the point is instead of saying that we will do it or we will do that lets be practical and make the analysis accordingly.

Cheers,

Miroslav

Nice post Miro! Thanks!

[sobank]

i dont know who is more idiot. one that is gonna push french to go for the vote for india (just to sell 6 subs to india). or the people not thinking that they will be able to push france for the vote by not buying the submarines.(refering to IN and not the guys over here). if one can buy the vito power than i guess saudi should should had it by now even if they had to monthly fee for it.

french know whatever india says they gonna end up buying their sub. Its not like indian can make their own (though i wish they do. we would have another arjun). Russian are not on par with french when it comes to subs.

why dont indian go for american stuff if they sell any.

[Miroslav]

why dont indian go for american stuff if they sell any.

Because they are not reliable.

one that is gonna push french to go for the vote for india (just to sell 6 subs to india). or the people not thinking that they will be able to push france for the vote by not buying the submarines.(refering to IN and not the guys over here).

Not only 6 subs but 126 MRCA also.

if one can buy the vito power than i guess saudi should should had it by now even if they had to monthly fee for it.

Saudi has got a huge investment in US. (More than $$$ 800 Billion) still US dont support them. Also Saudi havn't played any impportant role in the international politics neither they are that responsible to have the VETO power. Where India is a contestant and trying to gain the maximum votes to achieve the victory.

Its not like indian can make their own (though i wish they do. we would have another arjun).

Just between you and me...........

ATV is India's most secret project. Dont get surprised if PN founds some unknown submarine on Sonar.

Also for your information. IN and its shipbuilding havn't learn the word failure yet.

Since 1970 to till date. IN and Indian shipbuilding are making world class ships.

If you wish I will put the list and keep your fingers crossed for the Project 17, Type-15A and ADS.

Cheers,

Miro

[sobank]

ok that arjun thing didnt come out right as i intended. i meant the time factor not failure. And i know IN has proved to be smarter than other indian institutions.