76 replies to this topic

[safdar]

rungroot, on 11 May 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

Why??? Why not just study the Quran and sunnah on their own and live accordingly?

Well because unlike you not every can read the Qur’an and hadith and memorise it and become mufti’s. even if one does he/she cant just recall instantly any hadith or Qur’anic verse , and even if one can what if the other party requests some informed opinion from an expert?

[rungroot]

safdar, on 11 May 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Well because unlike you not every can read the Qur’an and hadith and memorise it and become mufti’s. even if one does he/she cant just recall instantly any hadith or Qur’anic verse , and even if one can what if the other party requests some informed opinion from an expert?

1.  I am dead against having clergy titles and hierarchy where their is a qari then above him a mullah and then imam and then sheikh and mufti, what the hell is next???  A halal pope???  The Holy Prophet  S A W never precribed a clerical hierarchy, the Sahabah never had one,  who the hell are we to make one up???

2.  Education is FARDH upon each and every Muslim, both deen and dunya.  So if someone is uneducated, he or she will mess up even if an angel gave him the best possible advice.  

3.  The commandments of Islam are actually very simple, so simple that you literally count them on your fingers, there is literally NO need for advice from multiple fiqhs.  I have never needed one, my close friends and family have never needed one, and we are a pretty conservative bunch, not even moderate let alone liberal trash!  Getting advice is fine and fine and dandy, but from very select sources that are tried and true to be adhering to the proper spirit and teachings of Islam, not just anyone.

[Caesar]

Right you want to use force to convert people and tell them what is right and what is wrong?? Good luck with that.

A bit off the topic but the problem I have with each and every followers of religions on this planet ...people becoming barbarians and killing other people just to prove that their religion is "superior" or "the right" religion. Centuries of bloodshed, millions of lives most of them innocent people lost due this barbaric thinking.

But hey what the hell ... we have nutcase religious fanatic Christains in the West who want to "Purify" society and show everyone "light of Jesus" , and then we have equally mad fanatics in the East, mainly Muslims countries, wanting to get rid of all "iinfidels" ..

You can't use force to convert people's thinkings and opinions for F* sake. Millions of Christains for example call "Quran" a book copied from the Bible. I won't use the exact words but they call the prophet Muhammad a XXXXX for marrying a 7-year old girl.

So are you gonna kill millions just because they have an opinion on this?? Or are you gonna ignore these idiots and carry on with your life in peace and stick to what you know is the truth?

[Sanguine]

rungroot, on 11 May 2012 - 02:55 PM, said:

Why??? Why not just study the Quran and sunnah on their own and live accordingly?

In light of another authentic hadith that says that there will be 71 or 72 firqahs in Islam and they all will burn in hell except ONE; the one that is of Rasool Allah S A W and the Sahabah (and the ones like them).  So which firqah, fiqh and/or silsilah will you follow now???  How do you know they wont be the one destined to burn in hell???

I absolutely agree with you that we all must go through Quran and Sunnah ourselves. But let me tell you one thing, Shafi, Hanbli, Hanfi etc are not firqahs or sects. These are schools of thought which have more to do with fiqh (or matters pertaining to human conduct and not beliefs) and when it comes to fiqh, every scholar is at freedom of interpreting things within periphery of Shariah. Sects (and sub-sects) include Shiites, Sunnis, Mutazilites, Barelvis, Wahabis etc etc. If you have a close look at people who are proud of their sects and everything, they usually have a problem with beliefs of the other group and then they come up with Daif/ concocted traditions to show what they believe in is correct, totally overlooking what Quran says, totally ignoring that Quran forms the basis of dogmas and if a hadith is inculcating beliefs which are in conflict with Quran then it cant be a tradition of Prophet (P.B.U.H).

[safdar]

rungroot, on 11 May 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

1.  I am dead against having clergy titles and hierarchy where their is a qari then above him a mullah and then imam and then sheikh and mufti, what the hell is next???  A halal pope??? The Holy Prophet  S A W never precribed a clerical hierarchy, the Sahabah never had one,  who the hell are we to make one up???

Lol…well, we have halal sausages…   ok no more halal jokes, someones going to get offended.

I’ll be honest with you rungroot you’re an idealist. Very predictable and easily countered. I could run circles around you because idealist are only in their mind infallible (no offence intended).  you see we need mufti’s ulema, qaris imams etc these aren’t political constructs, they are absolutely vital just as doctors engineers and scientists are.

You’re baiting me with rudimentary questions again, such as: our Prophet (PBUH) never had such in his time, why should we!   Pragmatism my friend our Prophet (PBUH) also did not live in the twenty first century with a population of a billion Muslim to deal with either. Fatima has given you good reply deal with it.

see the problem with religiously motivated threads invite heathen like Caesar, arrogantly spreading his kufr again.

[hifi]

@ rungroot

I never believe in giving such power to mullahs either. But dont we all need teachers ?
Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) was a teacher to sahaba, they in turn were teachers to people of arabia/foreign lands/ tabieen and so on and so forth. Thats the way knowledge has been passed down.  If we do not create such a heirarchy, Who do we believe and who not ? I say we have a proper system of education of people who are interested in delving deeper in religion. It should not just be madrassas. A proper system like a university. Where a man gets evaluated/tested before he is an imam.
The problem you have is with the mullahs who either drive expensive cars and call for terrorist acts or from those who give out ridiculous fatwas. Believe you me, not every mullah is like that. Some people are learned and love to teach about the deen to others.
No one is calling for a clerical heirarchy, and you and i wont take the words of a imam more or less seriously than the words of a mufti or shaykh. This is where education you talk about comes in, when people must be taught that even though these people are learned they still are not your messengers to God, that they cant advise you on anything that goes against quran, that they are as much as fallible as you are.

When we are lead in prayers, we are lead by an imam, someone we trust would know what he does, someone who is pious and has knowledge of the book. Its the respect we offer to such people by giving them these titles on the basis of how much they have learned. Those titles mean nothing more and thats what education tells people.

P.S lol, i dont mean to argue with you in every thread, but its just a coincidence. Dont take it personally.

[hifi]

Caesar, on 12 May 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

Right you want to use force to convert people and tell them what is right and what is wrong?? Good luck with that.

A bit off the topic but the problem I have with each and every followers of religions on this planet ...people becoming barbarians and killing other people just to prove that their religion is "superior" or "the right" religion. Centuries of bloodshed, millions of lives most of them innocent people lost due this barbaric thinking.

But hey what the hell ... we have nutcase religious fanatic Christains in the West who want to "Purify" society and show everyone "light of Jesus" , and then we have equally mad fanatics in the East, mainly Muslims countries, wanting to get rid of all "iinfidels" ..

You can't use force to convert people's thinkings and opinions for F* sake. Millions of Christains for example call "Quran" a book copied from the Bible. I won't use the exact words but they call the prophet Muhammad a XXXXX for marrying a 7-year old girl.

So are you gonna kill millions just because they have an opinion on this?? Or are you gonna ignore these idiots and carry on with your life in peace and stick to what you know is the truth?

Please propose a solution my friend ! You have a very simple view of blaming everything on religion.
But trust me, if the world were run by godless men(to some extent it is) we would be in much greater ####. Generosity and compassion is the root of most religion.
what is yours,  blaming all the ills of the society on God and his religion ?
We, the people of religion instead of blaming try to educate people, to bring them towards peace.
You say to be such a learned man, yet you cannot differentiate between a man who calls himself muslim just for the sake of it and kills hundreds of people and a man who is a muslim and shines as an example.

Show me what godless men have done ? yes yes, they are philanthrophists and have helped the poor. But religions men have built up enite society and nations set up laws and laid foundations. Take Moses(a.s) and Muhammad(p.b.u.h) for an example.

You would like to propose a solution of humanity, where everyone is treated equally and religion is either banished or restricted. We live in such an age in the west and look around you for the ills of the society. Such a society has ever changing rules. First they ban capital punishment, then they reinstate it, then they ban it again, first they allow freedom of religion, then they ban it ?

You sound like hitler in mein kempf, where he blamed all the ills of germany on jews, and then look what happened.
Im sorry bro, but such people existed before, who didnt really believe in religion and instead made themselves GOD and made laws and called it religion.

Blaming a relgion for the actions of a  select group of people identifying themselves with that religion is stereotyping. Do you really see muslims in sydney going around in a killing spree ? few might( lebanese gang members), but majority are peaceful and live their lives as such.

Tell me a better solution than religion, im all ears.

[Caesar]

safdar, on 12 May 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

see the problem with religiously motivated threads invite heathen like Caesar, arrogantly spreading his kufr again.

Come on little one no need to get personnel; manners please. Using words like "heathen" doesn't change who you are in reality; I can see through your veils of deception.  

I usually ignore sub-intelligent posts, so I will do the same here.

[safdar]

Caesar, on 12 May 2012 - 08:27 AM, said:

I usually ignore sub-intelligent posts, so I will do the same here.

Yes well you did didn’t you! You just flame baited up there (you did not place PBUH after addressing our prophet PBUH) now you’re  playing coy and innocent whingeing about personal attacks! that’s just typical attention seeking you.

[Caesar]

safdar, on 12 May 2012 - 12:08 PM, said:

Yes well you did didn’t you! You just flame baited up there (you did not place PBUH after addressing our prophet PBUH) now you’re playing coy and innocent whingeing about personal attacks! that’s just typical attention seeking you.

Another childish post by a closet taliban.... good work just keep posting and spreading non-sense. You really need a bamboo up your ********** for flaming and deliberately trying to make this into something it is not. So Mr taliban are you gonna behead people just because they don't use PBUH?

Now listen and learn from what I am posting below you ignorant fool.

The word PBUH is supposed to be the rendering of an Arabic phrase, it is actually not a true translation. The Arabic phrase is Salla-llahu 'wassalam. It occurs in the Quranic text and literally reads, "Lo! Allah and His angels pray upon the prophet. Oh yea who believe, pray on him and salute him with peace."

This is utterly confusing when compared to the Arabic statement and is embarrassing since it contradicts Islamic/Quranic doctrine.

How is Allah supposed to pray to Muhammad and greet Him or anyone else for that matter? Does Allah pray? And if He does, to whom does he pray? Is this passage not contrary to Muslim theology, which teaches that Allah is prayed to but He never prays to anyone else? Or does Allah really pray to other human beings or only to Muhammad, Allah's own prophet?

The phrase "send blessings" was originally "pray upon". The translator didn't think it is appropriate to say that God and His Angels would pray upon (inferring praying to) the prophet Mohamed, so he had to change it to "send blessings."

PBUH is an Arab custom, tradition or etiquettes whatever you want to call it. A person not using PBUH is simply not following “Arabic traditions”.

God does not pray for any Human, Prophet or whoever; the whole of Creation prays to God.

[rungroot]

safdar, on 12 May 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

Lol…well, we have halal sausages…   ok no more halal jokes, someones going to get offended.

I’ll be honest with you rungroot you’re an idealist. Very predictable and easily countered. I could run circles around you because idealist are only in their mind infallible (no offence intended).  you see we need mufti’s ulema, qaris imams etc these aren’t political constructs, they are absolutely vital just as doctors engineers and scientists are.

You’re baiting me with rudimentary questions again, such as: our Prophet (PBUH) never had such in his time, why should we!   Pragmatism my friend our Prophet (PBUH) also did not live in the twenty first century with a population of a billion Muslim to deal with either. Fatima has given you good reply deal with it.

see the problem with religiously motivated threads invite heathen like Caesar, arrogantly spreading his kufr again.

If being an idealist means that I go on facts and common sense then fine, Im an idealist.  Your analogy equating them to doctors and scientists is incorrect since doctors and scintists dont issue fatwas of kufat on anyone who disagrees with them.  The entire problem with clergy is that they demand that their word be considered as deen and if anyone disagrees even on sound logic, he becomes a kafir.  Thats why they are instrumental in creating sectarian violence.  Doctors and scientists always listen to arguments of each other and do NOT resort to creating sectarian chaos, so your analogy is comparing apples with oranges.  Eliminate this stubbornness from muslim clergy and make them all declare that they are not to be considered as the absolute authority in any matter, then I have no problem with them.  Case in point, just go and try explaining to a mufti that the age of Hazrat Aisha was not nine but nineteen based on pure mathematical and historic evidence, just watch how fast you will be declared as kafir and wajib ul qatal!   Scientists and doctors dont do that.

[Alp Arsalan Ghazi]

This "Caesar" (ironically names himself after the infidel pagan roman emperor) is now using arguments from Arab christians that have already been explained.

If it really meant what you imply then it would be easy for any enemy of Islam to criticize this verse for what you claim as soon as it was Revealed.

Allah's "salah" is not the same. It is implied as a blessing, similar to barakat.

Its used again in Surat al Baqarah 157 to describe a group of people.

[rungroot]

hifi, on 12 May 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

@ rungroot

I never believe in giving such power to mullahs either. But dont we all need teachers ?
Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) was a teacher to sahaba, they in turn were teachers to people of arabia/foreign lands/ tabieen and so on and so forth. Thats the way knowledge has been passed down.  If we do not create such a heirarchy, Who do we believe and who not ? I say we have a proper system of education of people who are interested in delving deeper in religion. It should not just be madrassas. A proper system like a university. Where a man gets evaluated/tested before he is an imam.
The problem you have is with the mullahs who either drive expensive cars and call for terrorist acts or from those who give out ridiculous fatwas. Believe you me, not every mullah is like that. Some people are learned and love to teach about the deen to others.
No one is calling for a clerical heirarchy, and you and i wont take the words of a imam more or less seriously than the words of a mufti or shaykh. This is where education you talk about comes in, when people must be taught that even though these people are learned they still are not your messengers to God, that they cant advise you on anything that goes against quran, that they are as much as fallible as you are.

When we are lead in prayers, we are lead by an imam, someone we trust would know what he does, someone who is pious and has knowledge of the book. Its the respect we offer to such people by giving them these titles on the basis of how much they have learned. Those titles mean nothing more and thats what education tells people.

P.S lol, i dont mean to argue with you in every thread, but its just a coincidence. Dont take it personally.

Oddly enough, I agree with everything you said.  Maybe you put my point across more eliquently than I did. I have no problem with ulemas who are tried and true and preach that they are not infallible.  I only have a problem with onea who want themselves to be considered as THE ABSOLUTE authority and the ones who declare anyone as kafir if they disagree with them.  They do not consider themselves as fallible.  Those are ones that create sectarian violence against other sects who may have an opposing view and they are the ones that I am against.

[Alp Arsalan Ghazi]

Honestly I don't doubt that Aisha (ra) was very young when she was married to the holy prophet (saw).

But in all of these reports of her being married at a young age we are told that the marriage was actually delayed a few years until she became physically mature.

The infidels who use this to malign our prophet (saw) don't realize that merely a century ago the age of consent in their countries was as low as 10.

[Caesar]

Alp Arsalan Ghazi, on 13 May 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

This "Caesar" (ironically names himself after the infidel pagan roman emperor) is now using arguments from Arab christians that have already been explained.

If it really meant what you imply then it would be easy for any enemy of Islam to criticize this verse for what you claim as soon as it was Revealed.

Allah's "salah" is not the same. It is implied as a blessing, similar to barakat.

Its used again in Surat al Baqarah 157 to describe a group of people.

LOL ... another one. Looks like the whole forum is crawling with Taliban vermons. Yea, yea sure ... whatever you say.

[Sanguine]

You all are fighting like women. For heaven's sake, stop it. You guys have already ruined the topic.

[Alp Arsalan Ghazi]

Caesar, on 13 May 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

LOL ... another one. Looks like the whole forum is crawling with Taliban vermons. Yea, yea sure ... whatever you say.

You are a kaffir and have no business on this forum

Nor do you have any connection with Pakistan, a country created for Muslims

MOD EDIT:  Argue & disagree all you want, but refrain from issuing takfir - it isn't worth putting your aakhirah on stake, regardless of how compelling a case might be.  

Edited by Saqr, 15 May 2012 - 07:46 AM.

[Caesar]

Alp Arsalan Ghazi, on 13 May 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

You are a kaffir and have no business on this forum

Nor do you have any connection with Pakistan, a country created for Muslims

And now I have to deal with a sick taliban pervert with 38 posts. Oh what a luck!!

[Saqr]

Keep it clean folks, I'll let most of the above comments slide but from now on it'd be in everyone's interest to be sincere.

Caesar, on 12 May 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

Right you want to use force to convert people and tell them what is right and what is wrong?? Good luck with that.

A bit off the topic but the problem I have with each and every followers of religions on this planet ...people becoming barbarians and killing other people just to prove that their religion is "superior" or "the right" religion. Centuries of bloodshed, millions of lives most of them innocent people lost due this barbaric thinking.

But hey what the hell ... we have nutcase religious fanatic Christains in the West who want to "Purify" society and show everyone "light of Jesus" , and then we have equally mad fanatics in the East, mainly Muslims countries, wanting to get rid of all "iinfidels" ..

You can't use force to convert people's thinkings and opinions for F* sake. Millions of Christains for example call "Quran" a book copied from the Bible. I won't use the exact words but they call the prophet Muhammad a XXXXX for marrying a 7-year old girl.

So are you gonna kill millions just because they have an opinion on this?? Or are you gonna ignore these idiots and carry on with your life in peace and stick to what you know is the truth?

This problem isn't confined to supposedly God-fearing people...any society whereby ideas/beliefs (even purely secular or Atheistic ones) are followed blindly is going to decay and succumb to slaughtering others.  Remember them Soviet Communists, or Chinese Maoists, etc?

Edited by Saqr, 15 May 2012 - 07:51 AM.

[Alp Arsalan Ghazi]

Caesar, on 15 May 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

And now I have to deal with a sick taliban pervert with 38 posts. Oh what a luck!!

The Taliban who are pissing a hole through your eurowhore idols

My respect to them as you speak the same language of the enemy.

I hope you rot in hell you rat.

MOD EDIT: Edited for vulgarity, warning 1.

Edited by Saqr, 16 May 2012 - 08:35 AM.

[Truth Never Dies]

Asalam-o-alikum,

Scholar of Islam, and and medical Doctor by Profession, that Zakir Naik Said about that topic,





What Dr. Bilal Phillip Said about that,,

[Caesar]

Alp Arsalan Ghazi, on 16 May 2012 - 01:28 AM, said:

The Taliban who are pissing a hole through your eurowhore idols

My respect to them as you speak the same language of the enemy.

I hope you rot in hell you rat.

Hello Taliban pervert. My response is:

The Quran forbids in specific from judging others. This has been expressed clearly in many verses:

Quran 88:25: For behold, unto Us will be their return,
Quran 88:26: Then it will be for (only) Us to call them to account

By using the Arabic word "Inna" - which means "We" (i.e., God) - to begin 88:26 is a clear indication that it is ONLY God who can judge humans because humans are not capable (or allowed) to pass judgment against their fellow man. Quran has unequivocally stated that ONLY God can pass judgment on humans.

22:17 Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians, Christians, Magians, and Polytheists,- God will judge between them on the Day of Judgment: for God (alone) is witness of all things.

Humans do not possess the foreknowledge of God and thus we are in no position to pass judgment over others.

But hey what we have illiterate taliban pervert here crawling on this forum with 38 posts and calling others infidels.

Now taliban please take my middle finger and suck it; have a really nice day!!

[Caesar]

Saqr, on 15 May 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

Keep it clean folks, I'll let most of the above comments slide but from now on it'd be in everyone's interest to be sincere. This problem isn't confined to supposedly God-fearing people...any society whereby ideas/beliefs (even purely secular or Atheistic ones) are followed blindly is going to decay and succumb to slaughtering others. Remember them Soviet Communists, or Chinese Maoists, etc?

The difference I see is that God-Fearing people have done this for thousands of years. Whereas the Soviets and Chinese communists committed such acts mainly in the 20th century. However, it still does not make it right.

The question which we should ask is why do these crimes against humanity occur in the name of religion or communism or Maoism?

The answer to this question is very simple. You see all of the above mentioned have one thing in common: SUPPRESSION OF HUMAN FREE-WILL!!

When you suppress  human free will, when you take away their freedom to think and make a decision, when you impose ideologies on humanity than slaughter of humanity takes place. Because humans by nature are FREE.

The strangest thing about all this is Quran has clearly said that Humans have been given FREE-WILL. This indicates that you cannot force religions and ideologies on Human. It has to be their own decision to follow or not.

[rungroot]

ceaser,

If the Taliban (the Afghan ones) are as evil and monstrous as you say they are, care to explain how they managed to impress someone as liberal and  anti Islamic as Yvonne Riddley so much so that she herself reverted to Islam ???

[Caesar]

rungroot, on 17 May 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

ceaser,

If the Taliban (the Afghan ones) are as evil and monstrous as you say they are, care to explain how they managed to impress someone as liberal and  anti Islamic as Yvonne Riddley so much so that she herself reverted to Islam ???

rungroot, you are missing the point here. Why is Pak Military fighting taliban?? If taliban are so good why not hand over the country to them? Why fight a war with them in Swat, SW, and NW?

The example you have given is very insignificant or not even relevant. Taliban have an ideology and they are using force and evil means to spread their ideology. Any human who has used their free will and said "no' to them has been beheaded or killed.

The whole point of the argument is that YOU CANNOT USE FORCE TO CONVERT PEOPLE OR THEIR THINKING TO YOUR RELIGION OR YOUR IDEOLOGY. IT HAS TO BE THE FREE WILL OF A PERSON TO FOLLOW OR NOT TO FOLLOW ANY RELIGION OR IDEOLOGY. AND GOD HAS GIVEN THAT FREE WILL TO HUMANS AS MENTIONED SEVERAL TIMES IN QURAN.

[faizan khaliq]

Caesar, on 18 May 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

rungroot, you are missing the point here. Why is Pak Military fighting taliban?? If taliban are so good why not hand over the country to them? Why fight a war with them in Swat, SW, and NW?

The example you have given is very insignificant or not even relevant. Taliban have an ideology and they are using force and evil means to spread their ideology. Any human who has used their free will and said "no' to them has been beheaded or killed.

The whole point of the argument is that YOU CANNOT USE FORCE TO CONVERT PEOPLE OR THEIR THINKING TO YOUR RELIGION OR YOUR IDEOLOGY. IT HAS TO BE THE FREE WILL OF A PERSON TO FOLLOW OR NOT TO FOLLOW ANY RELIGION OR IDEOLOGY. AND GOD HAS GIVEN THAT FREE WILL TO HUMANS AS MENTIONED SEVERAL TIMES IN QURAN.

the problem is that before yanks invasion Taliban had to impress the world through governance but now through fighting..Their ideology may be wrong but their right to fight Occupation forces is absolute right. On the topic there can never be a standard  yard stick for puberty  of women and secondly somebody might check the world record of youngest mother and thirdly there are different narrations regarding the age at marriage one is nine and the other is 15 and to best of my knowledge another narration is 18. One can take anyone

[rungroot]

Caesar, on 18 May 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

rungroot, you are missing the point here. Why is Pak Military fighting taliban?? If taliban are so good why not hand over the country to them? Why fight a war with them in Swat, SW, and NW?
The so called Taliban that got arses handed to them on a platter by the Army are NOT the real Taliban and you know that.   They have a ton of foreign Intel influence from the likes of raw,  CIA  and mossad, that much is as clear as day light.  So they cannot be used as a measure of character adding the genuine Taliban who by the way have disowned the ttp.

The example you have given is very insignificant or not even relevant. Taliban have an ideology and they are using force and evil means to spread their ideology. Any human who has used their free will and said "no' to them has been beheaded or killed.
Very Insignificant,  huh? A superbly anti Islamic and die hard feminist journalist who reverted to Islam is now very insignificant suddenly?  Excuse me?  Well she maybe insignificant for you but even in her insignificance, she has proven you wrong, she did not revert to Islam while in captivity, the Afghan Taliban still let her go with her head intact and that too after she kept cursing and yelling at them because of being the self professed man hating feminist that she was.   Even then,  the Afghan Taliban swallowed all the anger and kept treating her kindly maintaining their cool.   But never mind her,  she is so insignificant after all, apparently that sellout from rawa who makes fake videos in the Mohave desert and calls it Afghanistan (as per some who claim) must be more significant to you?!

The whole point of the argument is that YOU CANNOT USE FORCE TO CONVERT PEOPLE OR THEIR THINKING TO YOUR RELIGION OR YOUR IDEOLOGY. IT HAS TO BE THE FREE WILL OF A PERSON TO FOLLOW OR NOT TO FOLLOW ANY RELIGION OR IDEOLOGY. AND GOD HAS GIVEN THAT FREE WILL TO HUMANS AS MENTIONED SEVERAL TIMES IN QURAN.
agreed. But you need to understand that the Afghan Taliban never did that,  there is a minority Hindu and Sikh community that lived under them when the Taliban were ruling, I even know one Afghan Hindu in Fremont California.  As per him,  the Taliban invited them to convert to Islam but when his entire community refused, the Taliban asked them to pay jizya.  And that is perfectly according to the Quran and the Sunnah.  Now I'm sure there may have been some one off incidences of forced conversion which is wrong.   But understand that it would also be wrong of us to demand perfection from them when the world at large is so imperfect.  Forced democracy is just as wrong not to mention pure evil,  how come you never raise bloody hell over that???

[leuitenentcolonel]

<div align="center"><strong>further reading for you guys</strong></div>
<div align="center">Real Age Of Aisha (R.A) At The Time Of Marriage With Muhammad PBUH</div>
<p><br />
<br />
<br />
<font color="#000000" size="2">Historians see Aisha as a learned woman, who tirelessly recounted stories from the life of Muhammad and explained Muslim history and traditions. She is considered to be one of the foremost scholars of Islam’s early age and up to one-third of the Islamic Sharia (Islamic religious law), based on the collection of hadiths, to have stemmed from her narrations. Aisha became the most prominent of Muhammad PBUH wives and is revered as a role model by millions of women.<br />
The life of Hazrat Aisha (Radhiyallahu-Anha) is proof that a woman can be far more learned than men and that she can be the teacher of scholars and experts. Her life is also proof that the same woman can be totally feminine and be a source of pleasure, joy and comfort to her husband, to negate the status of Hazrat Aisha RA by designing a conspiracy against her age, a hadith had been floated after specific alteration to prove the false claim that she was 6 years old at the time of NIkah with Muhammad PBUH and 9 years at Rukhsati.<br />
<br />
According to some people who claim the Bukari and Muslim hadith reporting Hazrat Aisha’s age are “weak” (I won’t call them weak hadits, in reality they are attack on our Prophet PBUH.)<br />
There is material from both these hadith writers and earlier Islamic histories suggesting Aisha must have been older than nine when married.<br />
&bull; According to hadith in Bukhari and Muslim, Aisha is said to have joined Muhammad on the raid that culminated in the Battle of Badr, in 624 CE. However, because no one below the age of fifteen was allowed to accompany raiding parties, Aisha should have been at least fifteen in 624 CE and thus at least thirteen when she was married following the Hijra in 622 CE.<br />
&bull; Ibn Hisham’s recension of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rashul Allah, the earliest surviving biography of Muhammad, records Aisha as having converted to Islam before Umar ibn al-Khattab, during the first few years of Islam around 610 CE. In order to accept Islam she must have been walking and talking, hence at least three years of age, which would make her at least fifteen in 622 CE.<br />
&bull; Tabari reports that Abu Bakr wished to spare Aisha the discomforts of a journey to Ethiopia soon after 615 CE, and tried to bring forward her marriage to Mut`am’s son. Mut`am refused because Abu Bakr had converted to Islam, but if Aisha was already of marriageable age in 615 CE, she must have been older than nine in 622 CE.<br />
&bull; Tabari also reports that Abu Bakr’s four children were all born during the Jahiliyyah, the pre Islamic period, which could be said to have ended in 610 CE, making Aisha at least twelve in 622 CE.<br />
&bull; According to Ibn Hajar, Fatima was five years older than Aisha. Fatima is reported to have been born when Muhammad was thirty-five years old, meaning Aisha was born when he was forty years old, and thus twelve when Muhammad married at fifty-two.<br />
&bull; Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn Urwa reporting on the authority of his father. All the narratives of this event have been reported through narrators from Iraq, where Hisham ibn Urwa is reported to have shifted after living in Madinah for seventy-one years. It is reported in one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions ascribed to the Muhammad reports that Yaqub ibn Shaibah said, “narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq”. It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham, which were reported through people of Iraq. Another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Muhammad reports that when he was old, Hisham’s memory suffered quite badly.<br />
&bull; According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Aisha is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur’an , was revealed, “I was a young girl”. The 54th Surah of the Qur’an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Aisha had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl, not even only an infant at that time. So if this age is assumed to be 7 to 14 years then her age at the time of marriage would be 14 to 21.<br />
&bull; According to almost all the historians, Asma the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than Aisha. It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma died in the 73rd year after migration of Muhammad when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in the 73rd year after Migration to Medina, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of migration. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Aisha – if she got married in 1 AH (after Migration to Medina) or 2 AH – was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.<br />
&bull; According to many Ahadith in Bukhari, it is believed Aisha participated in the battle of Badr and Uhud.Also in Bukhari (Kitabu’l-maghazi) Ibn `Umar states that the Prophet did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was 14 years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was 15 years old, the Prophet permitted my participation. So if it was not allowed to participate in Uhud for people younger than 15, then Aisha would be atleast 15 in those battles, making her age atleast 13 to 14 at the time of marriage.<br />
&bull; Tabaqat ibn Sa’d, 8:58; Ansab al-Ashraf, 1:410. Opinions are in disagreement concerning her marriage with Muhammad. Their marriage seems to have taken place either two of five years after the Migration (Usd al-ghaba, 5:501).<br />
A perusal of the Quran will reveal that marriage in Islam is a civil contract, meesaaq (4:21), and as such it can be finalised only between persons who are intellectually and physically mature enough to understand and fulfill the responsibilities of such a contract. This can be further understood from the verse; “And test the orphans until they reach the age of nikah (marriage), and if you find in them rushdh (maturity of intellect) release their property to them.”(4:6). It may be noted here that the Quran makes intellectual maturity (which always falls beyond the age of puberty) the basis to arrive at the age of marriage. This is also in conformity with the Quranic description of marriage as emotional bonding between two mutually compatible persons through which they seek “to dwell in tranquility” (see 7:189 and 30:21) in the companionship of each other which is not possible if either of the spouses is mentally undeveloped.<br />
<br />
This hadith cannot be true for several reasons. First, the Prophet could not have gone against the Quran to marry a physically and intellectually immature child. Secondly, the age of Hazrat Aisha can be easily calculated from the age of her elder sister Hazrat Asma who was 10 years older than Hazrat Aisha. Waliuddin Muhammad Abdullah Al-Khateeb al Amri Tabrizi the famous author of Mishkath, in his biography of narrators (Asma ur Rijal), writes that Hazrat Asma died in the year 73 Hijri at the age of 100, ten or twelve days after the martyrdom of her son Abdullah Ibn Zubair. It is common knowledge that the Islamic calendar starts from the year of the Hijrah or the Prophet’s migration from Mecca to Medina.<br />
<br />
Therefore, by deducting 73, the year of Hazrat Asma’s death, from 100, her age at that time, we can easily conclude that she was 27 years old during Hijra.<br />
<br />
This puts the age of Hazrat Aisha at 17 during the same period. As all biographers of the Prophet agree that he consummated his marriage with Hazrat Aisha in the year 2 Hijri it can be conclusively said that she was 19 at that time and not nine as alleged in the aforementioned hadiths.</font></p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p><font color="#000000" size="2"><strong><font size="3"><font color="#006400">Praise be to Ummul Momineen Syeddina Aisha Siddiqa(ra)<!-- google_ad_section_end --></font></font></strong> <!-- / message --><!-- sig --></font></p>
<p><font color="#000000" size="2">May Allah forgive me if I am wrong</font></p>

[leuitenentcolonel]

The Two Books of Ahadith Sahih Bukhari and Muslim are the most authentic books. What we here from Muhammad (p.b.u.h.)'s relatives or friends, is what Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) said or they have seen him doing that. And today we do not get hadith by just listening to one person but Bukhari (ra) gathered info from various sources and when many agreed, he quoted it.

Saheeh Al-Bukhaari and Saheeh Muslim are regarded as the most authentic and authoritative books, after Al-Quran. Indeed the very word "Saheeh" means "authentic".

Some facts about Saheeh Al-Bukhaari:
1. It contains 7,275 Hadeeths, which he may Allah have mercy upon him chose from the large number of Hadeeths that he may Allah have mercy upon him had collected.
2. The number of complete unrepeated Hadeeths is 2230.
3. All the Hadeeths mentioned are authentic.
4. The conditions for accepting a Hadeeth were very stringent. Such as:

a) The chain of narrators must be linked, i.e. every narrator must have met his predecessor, (the man of whom he heard the Hadeeth from, up to the Prophet (p.b.u.h,)

b) For it to be enclosed in the Saheeh, the narrators must be of the highest caliber regarding their piety, manners, memory, integrity, etc.

5. The book is not a mere book of narrations; it is essentially a course of study on Hadeeth, its derivatives, inductions and research.

6. Each one of its 97 chapters is headed by a relevant verse from the Quran that complements the meaning of the Hadiths quoted.

7. Finally, much more could be said about this monumental work, however, it is enough to say that many people have reached fame and achieved the highest qualifications by studying the book, researching it and commenting on it.

now you need to make sure that you are getting the right Sahih Bukhari

Rest Allah knows the best~!

[Saqr]

Caesar, on 18 May 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

rungroot, you are missing the point here. Why is Pak Military fighting taliban?? If taliban are so good why not hand over the country to them? Why fight a war with them in Swat, SW, and NW?

The example you have given is very insignificant or not even relevant. Taliban have an ideology and they are using force and evil means to spread their ideology. Any human who has used their free will and said "no' to them has been beheaded or killed.

The whole point of the argument is that YOU CANNOT USE FORCE TO CONVERT PEOPLE OR THEIR THINKING TO YOUR RELIGION OR YOUR IDEOLOGY. IT HAS TO BE THE FREE WILL OF A PERSON TO FOLLOW OR NOT TO FOLLOW ANY RELIGION OR IDEOLOGY. AND GOD HAS GIVEN THAT FREE WILL TO HUMANS AS MENTIONED SEVERAL TIMES IN QURAN.

I wouldn't want the Taliban ruling Pakistan, but I highly doubt the current rulers of Pakistan value human judgement.

[Alp Arsalan Ghazi]

Caesar, on 18 May 2012 - 02:50 AM, said:

rungroot, you are missing the point here. Why is Pak Military fighting taliban?? If taliban are so good why not hand over the country to them? Why fight a war with them in Swat, SW, and NW?

The example you have given is very insignificant or not even relevant. Taliban have an ideology and they are using force and evil means to spread their ideology. Any human who has used their free will and said "no' to them has been beheaded or killed.

The whole point of the argument is that YOU CANNOT USE FORCE TO CONVERT PEOPLE OR THEIR THINKING TO YOUR RELIGION OR YOUR IDEOLOGY. IT HAS TO BE THE FREE WILL OF A PERSON TO FOLLOW OR NOT TO FOLLOW ANY RELIGION OR IDEOLOGY. AND GOD HAS GIVEN THAT FREE WILL TO HUMANS AS MENTIONED SEVERAL TIMES IN QURAN.

You sound like one of those pork faced hicks barking against the Taliban who have done NOTHING except defend their home.

These porkers will sanction you, invade and murder your country if you reject their gaymocracy based on the most vile, despicable nation that ever exist ... the g@y greeks

You are now a mufassir after you made kufr in a few posts above?

[rungroot]

Alp Arsalan Ghazi, on 22 May 2012 - 11:38 AM, said:

You sound like one of those pork faced hicks barking against the Taliban who have done NOTHING except defend their home.

These porkers will sanction you, invade and murder your country if you reject their gaymocracy based on the most vile, despicable nation that ever exist ... the g@y greeks

You are now a mufassir after you made kufr in a few posts above?

Easy there  yaara,  if there is even a 0.01% chance that we could bring a very liberal perhaps non practicing Muslim on the right path by speaking with him kindly and logically then we should avail it.  I know I was once a very non practicing Muslim but certain people I met in my life were slowly able to turn me around without getting all harsh.

Let's leave the harshness as the last resort lest we unknowingly ruin our own eternity by labeling other Muslims as infidels.

PS:  1000% agree with you on the fitna of democrazy originating from the greek homosexual fags.   All the more reason to reject this system in its entirety.

[sobank]

if I had a full keyboard on me, I would have gladly met you on your turf cesear. unfortunately cellphone posting is very hard for me. but then again every time I challenge you for a proof based on logic and science you suddenly disappear or fail to apply the same scientific method that you do to others.

so lets just end it here. no more of half baked rubbish from you or anyone else. but if u still feel like making an argument then first meet your first challenge. I am still waiting for scientific proof of existence aliens on earth or the human being a product of alien and neanderthal mating.

in any case, no more off the topic rant.

[sobank]

in case of others, the main source of age for westerners is the same man or couple of people. on the other hand, for age above 14 the sources are more than few and include people from different times, places and includes actual incidents with confirmed references unlike westerners who end up quoting the same source.

having said that, I just read "national geographic's theories for everything". according to NG muslim didnt do jack in any field of science worth mentioning.  in the 400 page book muslims ar mentioned for like 4 pages. for NG writers it was greeks and them. nobody else. so I guess tho a proof of muslim being always worthless. atleast thats what thier almost official history says and its a fact cause. national geographic says it.

[Caesar]

sobank, on 25 May 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

if I had a full keyboard on me, I would have gladly met you on your turf cesear. unfortunately cellphone posting is very hard for me. but then again every time I challenge you for a proof based on logic and science you suddenly disappear or fail to apply the same scientific method that you do to others.

so lets just end it here. no more of half baked rubbish from you or anyone else. but if u still feel like making an argument then first meet your first challenge. I am still waiting for scientific proof of existence aliens on earth or the human being a product of alien and neanderthal mating.

in any case, no more off the topic rant.

Welcome back Sobank. You must be confusing me with someone else. I don't believe in alien-neanderthal mating nor I have mentioned it on this forum. The day you will provide me with proof based on logic and science about the existence of God I will do the same in return. caution:  It doesn't mean I believe in or do not believe in God.

[HKK]

Prophet (PBUH) got married to Khadeeja (RA) when he was in his mid twenties and she was nearly double his age. I dont know what was the age of Prophet (PBUH) when Khadeeja (RA) passed away , but it is definitely past 40s as he got his first revelation at the age of 40. Prophet (PBUH) never married to any other woman till Khadeeja (RA) passed away.

Number, figures doesnt matter to me. I can use my own logic and can clearly see that here this man, a Prophet, a very good looking man (being a prophet), spend all his youthful years, where the desire to have many women comes naturally, with a lady who was nearly twice his age. Quraish gave him bribes including women for him to stay away preaching islam.

In this background, the question of Aisha (RA) age and Prophet (PBUH) some sort of sick person (Naoozo Billah) simply doesnt warrent any attention. Things need to be taken in true perspective.

[Alp Arsalan Ghazi]

Caesar, on 25 May 2012 - 03:19 AM, said:

Welcome back Sobank. You must be confusing me with someone else. I don't believe in alien-neanderthal mating nor I have mentioned it on this forum. The day you will provide me with proof based on logic and science about the existence of God I will do the same in return. caution:  It doesn't mean I believe in or do not believe in God.

and people told me i was wrong for calling this kaffir a kaffir?

Rasoolullah (saaw) also married Hazrat Umar (ra) daughter

Anyone understanding what was going on?

Ali (ra) and Usman (ra) married the daughters of Rasoolullah (saaw)