549 replies to this topic

[sinodefender]

for indian people:

we chinese are not interested in comparing anything with india.

when it comes to india, people think about curry chicken, proverty, and security guards in hong kong.
you guys should focus on changig that image instead of saying how strong your military is except that it's not.

japan invaded us, but we respect them cause they really are strong as smart.

korea is another case. they like to be strong, but they really are not that strong and they are a small country. so we still consider korea as a small country.

i mean you can say all you want to say, but you only get the respect when you really are strong. have you ever seen any japanese going around saying how strong their military is like the indians? do the indians get more respect from people around the world than the japanese? no

[penguin]

What fact?The fact is even the 30+ years old 092 SSBN could burn any Asian country.Need more fire power?

"It is generally agreed that the single unit of this class entered the shipyard in 1995. Operations have been limited and the Xia has never sailed beyond Chinese regional waters. The sole existing Xia-class SSBN may never have made an operational deployment, and had reportedly been in overhaul or undergoing disposal since 1995. A second hull was launched in 1982, but the status of this boat remains uncertain. It is certainly not currently in service, with unsubstantiated reports claiming it was lost in a 1985 accident. As of March 2001 the US Defense Intelligence Agency reported that the single XIA class SSBN was "not operational." The boat, fitted with 12 JL-1 or JL-1A missiles, had been expected to return to service in mid-1999. China's sole nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine (SSBN) – the XIA Class – was overhauled in 1995-1998 and most likely will be extended through at least 2011. "
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/type_92.htm

1 single boat. Not doing well either. Besides, most regional conflicts are not resolved by a nuclear exchange. So, not so practically usefull an asset, imho, whether strategically or at a lesser level.

13 years is not a lot of times for you?  I can easily argue in terms of equipment, PLAN has improved 3 to 4 folds in the past 5 years.  In certain areas like AAW, MCM, fleet supply and amphibious assets, the improvement is even more significant.  south koreans, Japanese and Indians can be as alarmed as they want, they have no way of stopping PLAN growth.  You only need to take a look at recent 891 and 892 photos to see some of the modern systems that PLAN is already testing with.  The only thing that PLAN is really weak on right now is ASW, but as we have seen how their MCM capability improved in just 1 year, 5 years is plenty of time for PLAN to surprise everyone.

PLAN has improved over the last 5 years, I fully agree. Which is why I said that PLAN has made great strides. However, that's just what's been visible. You have to add some, maybe considerable, time to those five years for development, which usually is not visible to the casual (internet) observer. A system like 052C has been in the making for well over a decade, I'm sure. And that's just playing catch up, not moving ahead of US AEGIS systems that are or will be in service in regional navies.

Personally, I think the JMSDF is the top regional Asian navy at this time. PLAN is not close to matching it. As PLAN developes, Japan and other regional navies are not going to just sit on their hands. Why do you thing South Korea is expanding its naval cpability? It's doing so in response to something. So, for PLAN, becoming number 1 in the region is aiming for a moving target. That;s all I said. And I don't think PLAN will beat JMSDF in the coming 13 years. You say yourself 052C (which is the top of the line at this time) is being tested. So, it will take some time to work out that systems. During which time it won't be built in any significant numbers. Think longer term, more like 25-30 years. That's just a matter of resources.

[harrypotter]

OMG what is up with this China Vs India ??? Whoever started this comparison is really retarded.

[penguin]

OMG what is up with this China Vs India ??? Whoever started this comparison is really retarded.

Well, yes, but it would probably not be incorrect  to state that IN develops in part in response to how PLAN develops.

[sinodefender]

Well, yes, but it would probably not be incorrect  to state that IN develops in part in response to how PLAN develops.

plan, china, and the chinese have no interest in india.

[Archangelesk99]

China army, navy and airforce all 3X power of India and gap is increasing.  Case closed

[zhou]

"It is generally agreed that the single unit of this class entered the shipyard in 1995. Operations have been limited and the Xia has never sailed beyond Chinese regional waters. The sole existing Xia-class SSBN may never have made an operational deployment, and had reportedly been in overhaul or undergoing disposal since 1995. A second hull was launched in 1982, but the status of this boat remains uncertain. It is certainly not currently in service, with unsubstantiated reports claiming it was lost in a 1985 accident. As of March 2001 the US Defense Intelligence Agency reported that the single XIA class SSBN was "not operational." The boat, fitted with 12 JL-1 or JL-1A missiles, had been expected to return to service in mid-1999. China's sole nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarine (SSBN) – the XIA Class – was overhauled in 1995-1998 and most likely will be extended through at least 2011. "
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/china/type_92.htm

1 single boat. Not doing well either. Besides, most regional conflicts are not resolved by a nuclear exchange. So, not so practically usefull an asset, imho, whether strategically or at a lesser level.

1 single boat?No,PLAN has four with the same coding number 406.PLAN calls them 406A,B,C and D.092 SSBN went back to the shipyard for JL-2 installation in later 1990s.
Please notice the title of this thread,the key words are "Asian Navy" which mean an Asian navy VS another Asian navy.What's the business of nuclear exchang since no other Asian navy has a SSBN.PLAN wins!!!!!   

[tphuang]

PLAN has improved over the last 5 years, I fully agree. Which is why I said that PLAN has made great strides. However, that's just what's been visible. You have to add some, maybe considerable, time to those five years for development, which usually is not visible to the casual (internet) observer. A system like 052C has been in the making for well over a decade, I'm sure. And that's just playing catch up, not moving ahead of US AEGIS systems that are or will be in service in regional navies.

Personally, I think the JMSDF is the top regional Asian navy at this time. PLAN is not close to matching it. As PLAN developes, Japan and other regional navies are not going to just sit on their hands. Why do you thing South Korea is expanding its naval cpability? It's doing so in response to something. So, for PLAN, becoming number 1 in the region is aiming for a moving target. That;s all I said. And I don't think PLAN will beat JMSDF in the coming 13 years. You say yourself 052C (which is the top of the line at this time) is being tested. So, it will take some time to work out that systems. During which time it won't be built in any significant numbers. Think longer term, more like 25-30 years. That's just a matter of resources.

You think PLAN has stopped developing since then?  Every year, we expect this PLAN build up to slow down a little bit, but every year, we see completely new systems coming out that just really surprise us.  If you look at the pace of PLAN improvement vs other navies around it.  You know that gap is closing very fast year by year.  No one in Asia can possibly improve as quickly as PLAN, it'd be illogical to think otherwise.

As for 052C is being tested stuff, yes it is, but so what?  Testing other ships they got recently haven't stopped the building process.  It's been a few years already.  They are going to start building 052D starting late this year or early next.  And the rate is going to be very fast.  If you follow PLAN closely, you would get this conclusion too.  If you are talking about long term, you can read my analysis on future PLAN expansion.  Basically, PLAN only has one target, that's USN.  If it can fight against USN near its shores, then it would have enough of force to go against anyone in the region.  I just don't see how you can look at the recent PLAN progress and think it can be slowed to the same speed as the Japanese or south Korean expansion.  What do you think the Koreans are going to build after a few KDX-3?  None of these countries can build ships as cheaply as China (although Koreans are comparable) especially since most of the systems on the new ships are domestically produced now (which means cheap).  And then, you have the larger defensive budget of China particular when we factor in the salary of the soldiers

[tphuang]

[quote name='Titan_1984' date='May 13 2007, 05:33 PM' post='902762']
So it will not be able to fly over Indian Ocean and SoM (from A&N).......Soo that dont make it as a part of Indian Navy....nothing to say.
[/quote]
yes, but if your enemy is going to face the more capable Phalcon platform, you might as well mention that instead of E-2D
[quote]
You proved your self in this reply...do you know how many fighter the INS Vickramaditya (44000 ton) will carry though its a modified cruiser. On the other hand 38000 ton IAC is a dedicated carrier with new design. French CDG is a 38000 ton ship and carries 40 Rafale M combat aircraft, the Super Etendard and three E-2C Hawkeye airborne early warning aircraft. It was built in 1994. Go and read something.
[/quote]
IN does not have the same ability at arranging and maximizing the # of ACs as the Western countries do.  And secondly, that 40 is including helicopters.  So, no, not 40 fighters as you were saying.
[quote]
that is just speculation, Barak-1 (JV between DRDO and Rafael) will be a 60-70 km range point defense anti-cruise/aircraft missile system for operating in smaller ships like P-28 corvettes and other future frigates and corvettes, not for P-15A. As they are talking about Aegis, only one platform is underconstruction to carry it that is P-15A.
[/quote]
so, you built a ship not knowing what to put on it, brilliant.  60-70 km is not point defense.  You can't fit that onto a corvette, lol.  You are getting Barak II mixed up with Barak I.  Far more knowledgeable Indian posters than yourself have all said Barak + EL/M-2248 MF-star combination.  Again, until you actually sign a deal with the Ameircans, the Israeli option sounds far more likely at this point.
[quote]
Do you know why Boeing gave 'I' sign to this export version of P-8???
[/quote]
So what, have you signed the contract?  There are other competitors in that MPA competition.  Until you decide on it and knowing we are talking about Indian gov't hear, that's going to take a while, you are not getting it for a while.
[quote]
really! it has the Topsight-E, advanced Isareli avionics and jammer, PESA radar and can carry long range anti-ship missiles. Name atleast one fighter from China which is as capable as it. Dont get confused........
[/quote]
oh brother, Mig-29K uses Zhuk-ME, a slotted array radar.  I know what Mig-29K avionics consist of.  I've done more reading on this than you know.
[quote]
Avionics components of Indian origin include:
• two short-range radio navigation systems (for tactical area navigation and approach/ landing) manufactured under licence from Thales;
• the radio altimeter;
• a UHF radio (these two items are also fitted to the Indian Air Force's Su-30MKIs);
• an ELINT set developed jointly with Russian avionics houses;
• an active ECM pod carried on the No.8 hardpoint under the starboard wing.  
Russian avionics:
IRCM,  HUD, MFD (by ShKAl)
[/quote]
so, it looks like Indian + Russian avionics to me.
As for one fighter from China as capable as it.  I will give you two.  J-10 and J-11B.  Nothing in this avionics suite is overly impressive.  It doesn't have towed decoy or MAWs or LWR.
[quote]
no no comparison please......we know what they are.....we know what P-17,P-16,Krivack can do and what 052c, 054a can do and what they carry.......nothing to say I just want to see what PLAN ships do when Brahmos and Mig-29K coming towards them what they have to counter them. We will see......If PLAN ship fire any missile fire any missile that can be countered by Barak-2, thats why its in development. Now dont say Chinese missiles are better than Israeli one.....
[/quote]
another dude into this supersonic AShM is world beater theory.  Lol, let me tell you something.  Every recent PLAN ship has a radar that's placed on top of a mast that gives it extremely reliable tracking of low flying, high speed AShM (mach 3 is well within its range).  And once it's tracked, brahmos is definitely within the engagement envelope of the naval SAMs and CIWS.  As for countering missiles with Barak-2.  I don't think you want to use medium-long range SAMs for anti-missile missions.  I explained why this is the case in another thread.  You might want to read that first.  There is a reason why ESSM and RAM are needed.
HH-9 and Barak 2 are not really in the same class.  One is a long range SAM (200 KM range) and the other is medium to long range.  And let's put it this way, with missiles has heavy as brahmos, you can carry one per fighter at max.  Compare that to JH-7A, you can easily carry 4 (if not 6) YJ-83s.  Which btw are much harder detect due to their smaller size, lower heat signature, lower flying altitude.  If you really must argue on this, I can explain the entire supersonic vs subsonic missiles to you.
[quote]
Hey you are so excited today mannn. Now its gone too far comparing latest French submarine with Chinese one.
[/quote]
If we say that Song/Kilo is one generation behind amur/u-214/scorpene, then the new generation Chinese SSK (after Yuan) should be in that generation.  Again, PLAN's goal is Oyashio/Collins class (which are the most potent SSKs out there)
[quote]
lol who is gf0012 i dont know and is he a military officier from Russia and India. why you just go to www.google.com and search for "Akula submarine India". So all the news reports from around the world is false.....
[/quote]
Gary is the premier submarine expert on the web.  He served on numerous projects including Collins class.  Yes, I'd take his confidential files over your internet news any day of the week.
[quote]
E-2D has MESA radar what KJ-200 has??? Show me only one proof that KJ-200 is already in PLAn service....
[/quote]
KJ-200 has an AESA radar.  I guess you can call it MESA since it is multi-role.  This is as good of a place as any to read up on the different surveillence platforms PLA has going.
http://cnair.top81.cn/y-8x_sh-5_a-50i.htm
[quote]
Yeah i was talking about future projected platforms. What Indian Navy today have is capable enough to trace Chinese subs. Look at the upgraded Tu-142,  Kashin, Krivak, Kilo, P-15, P-16, P-16A.
[/quote]
sure, it is.  Sure, your older kilos are better than the improved kilos we got, lol.

[Caesar]

The facts people simply overlook about PLAN are:

-Naval tech lagging behind West in all sectors.

-The myth that somehow Russia has given all of its best tech to China. Don't expect Russians to give their best tech...it is a still a big power and the last thing it wants is to give a blank check to China.

-If a country develops ships and start calling them Aegis equipped are they really as superior as Aegis?? Of course not!!

-When you develop new tech, doesn't matter if it is Indigenous, it takes years for full training of your staff and the acceptance of new doctorines developed by the naval management. It's not a kids game!!!

-No matter what people say the fact and the ground realities are that China has to depend on the West for new technologies.....and this is also a fact that the West is afraid of China and don't want to give it any new tech. Forgot about fairy tales like Tech Espionage!! It's just a fairy tale otherwise countries like Iran would have been super powers by now.

Look at the Chinese naval power from neutral and realistic grounds if you really want china to go ahead and develop in this field. Don't fall into the USA and Western trap of calling China superpower because USA desperately wants an opponent......it terrrorism now.....China from a few years from now!! It's better to say that we are a developing country and at the same time develop your military power. Once you are there announce it and show it!!

[vvvaidya29]

what do you mean head on? When a 50 kg man fights a 150 kg man does he fight him head on?  No.  He goes for his weak points like joints.  It's about skill and bravery finally.  

head on war means an open war...the question is not talking abt 50 kg man vs 150 kg man...right now we are here discussing abt best navies which turned into china vs america over taiwan issue...USA will never attack china for no reason.they will only defend taiwan..in this kind of war USA will only  play the role of GOALKEEPER of football match.and show me the weak points or what u say joints of american defence when china is on offensive mission and also the strong points of china...

And vietnamese, Iraqis have proven far more brave and skillful.  Vietnam thrashed American military and Iraqis are thrashing them again.  And finally who wins is what matters. Yes, go fight a man twice your size 'head on' and see how long you last.      Ignore this illogical idiot.  Case closed.

once again...vietnamese fought jungle war and it was american mistake to go for a land war and today we see that USA doesnot repeat such mistakes...in case of china niether USA will go for vietnam style war nor it will try to capture bejing like baghdad...they will only defend taiwan by using its an state of an art airforce and a blue water navy...taiwan war will be limited to sea and the sky..so now lets talk abt that only....

also abt iraq,baghdad was captured,saddams palaces and statues were destroyed,saddam was caught and was hanged to death and american M1's and soldiers are still on iraqi soil since 2003 and still bush declares that americans will not leave iraq anytime soon....so what kind THRASHING exactly iraqis are doing to americans????

[vvvaidya29]

may i also remind you that china is one of the two countries with the other being the us that has the ability to take down surveillance statelites?

in a war with china, the us cannot rely on statelites as heavily as it has with other countries.

downing one retired satelite and that too china's own,that doesnt mean that china is now fully capable of downing any advanced american millitary satelite....I say again, that china is a big power and has potent to become a world power but when it comes to USA then china still has long way to go...

[sinodefender]

downing one retired satelite and that too china's own,that doesnt mean that china is now fully capable of downing any advanced american millitary satelite....I say again, that china is a big power and has potent to become a world power but when it comes to USA then china still has long way to go...

why would you destroy someone else's satellite to test your missile?

for now, all satelites are the same and are not installed with any military devices or protection whatsoever.

you gotta understand that to win a war is all about how good you can sustain such a war.

india has no economy base to sustain a war with china. that's all we know.

and yes, the us does have a leap in most areas, but china is not far behind in all of those. plus, we have never said that china is as advanced as the us. we have never said that. chinese people are taught to be humble since childhood. and we don't exagerrate things like the indians. but china is not interested in comparing with india.

no chinese people care about india. we like to compare with the best, and that is the us, definitely not india.

that's the point i am trying to make. and it's just laughable when you think india is stronger than china. they might have purchased some equippment from the russia that they think are unbeatable.

but the strength of the country as a whole has is no match against china.

let me repeat once more, winning a war is all about the economy. when you have the economy large enough to support a war, then u will win it unless it goes nuclear.

when china has an economy 4x of usa's, and the war doesn't go nuclear, doesn't matter how many years the us is ahead of china's, china will win it eventually. right now, the gap is decreasing, and the economy of china is getting larger everyday. that's why the us is scared. they are not scared because of the technology advancement of china, but they are scared of china's strength as a country.

if china dumps its holding of us t bills today, the usa will go bankrupt, and forget about all the military power. it'll be one in one day.

[sinodefender]

The facts people simply overlook about PLAN are:

-Naval tech lagging behind West in all sectors.

-The myth that somehow Russia has given all of its best tech to China. Don't expect Russians to give their best tech...it is a still a big power and the last thing it wants is to give a blank check to China.

-If a country develops ships and start calling them Aegis equipped are they really as superior as Aegis?? Of course not!!

-When you develop new tech, doesn't matter if it is Indigenous, it takes years for full training of your staff and the acceptance of new doctorines developed by the naval management. It's not a kids game!!!

-No matter what people say the fact and the ground realities are that China has to depend on the West for new technologies.....and this is also a fact that the West is afraid of China and don't want to give it any new tech. Forgot about fairy tales like Tech Espionage!! It's just a fairy tale otherwise countries like Iran would have been super powers by now.

Look at the Chinese naval power from neutral and realistic grounds if you really want china to go ahead and develop in this field. Don't fall into the USA and Western trap of calling China superpower because USA desperately wants an opponent......it terrrorism now.....China from a few years from now!! It's better to say that we are a developing country and at the same time develop your military power. Once you are there announce it and show it!!

please define the term "the west"

the us has a leap in most areas, but china is not behind the west as a whole in most areas.

china is behind the us and russia in space technology, but is ahead of all other countries including eu and japan. for now, china and the us are the only two countries that can shoot down satellites. russia failed. and china, russia, and the us are the only countries can put men in space independently. europe and japan are behind.

so, yes, the us is advanced. germany is advanced too in many areas, and so is japan. but definitely not "the west" as a whole.

i am sure china is more advanced than australia is most areas in term of military technology. and no, just because you have some advanced weapons purchased from the us doesn't make you as advanced as the producers of such weapons.

so please do not use the term "the west" because it is not accurate.

australia is not advanced in any areas, it's a small country with a small economy.

and i am from hk, so dun try to say things like on a per capita basis how good u r and how bad we are, because our economy is still much stronger than you on a per capita basis.

[penguin]

plan, china, and the chinese have no interest in india.

Even so, the Indians cannot afford to ignore China, given the length of the land border, China-Pakistan relations and, if PLAN develops a people claim it will, its naval reach. Please explain to Archangelesk99 that China has no interest in India.

China army, navy and airforce all 3X power of India and gap is increasing.  Case closed

Would you explain to Sinodefender please.

1 single boat?No,PLAN has four with the same coding number 406.PLAN calls them 406A,B,C and D.092 SSBN went back to the shipyard for JL-2 installation in later 1990s.
Please notice the title of this thread,the key words are "Asian Navy" which mean an Asian navy VS another Asian navy.What's the business of nuclear exchang since no other Asian navy has a SSBN.PLAN wins!!!!!   

So, there is no other Asian navy with an SSBN. Does this somehow mean China can fire a nuke at an Asian country at will? Of course not. If would be political suicide on a global scale: there's no country in the world that would not condemn china if it did that in the face of conventional threat only. Having nukes is not the asnwer to all types of threat or conflict. It doesn't work that way.

You think PLAN has stopped developing since then?  Every year, we expect this PLAN build up to slow down a little bit, but every year, we see completely new systems coming out that just really surprise us.  If you look at the pace of PLAN improvement vs other navies around it.  You know that gap is closing very fast year by year.  No one in Asia can possibly improve as quickly as PLAN, it'd be illogical to think otherwise.

As for 052C is being tested stuff, yes it is, but so what?  Testing other ships they got recently haven't stopped the building process.  It's been a few years already.  They are going to start building 052D starting late this year or early next.  And the rate is going to be very fast.  If you follow PLAN closely, you would get this conclusion too.  If you are talking about long term, you can read my analysis on future PLAN expansion.  Basically, PLAN only has one target, that's USN.  If it can fight against USN near its shores, then it would have enough of force to go against anyone in the region.  I just don't see how you can look at the recent PLAN progress and think it can be slowed to the same speed as the Japanese or south Korean expansion.  What do you think the Koreans are going to build after a few KDX-3?  None of these countries can build ships as cheaply as China (although Koreans are comparable) especially since most of the systems on the new ships are domestically produced now (which means cheap).  And then, you have the larger defensive budget of China particular when we factor in the salary of the soldiers

thpuang, please, all I've said is that I disagree with the timeline. Don't act as if I'm dissing the PLAN alltogether, because I'm not. I'm not talking about slowing down PLAN development, I'm pointing out that the more  of a threat it becomes to neighbours because of its growth, the more the neighbours will take steps to counterbalance the threat. Which is what happens in an arms race.
052D ? Documentation please, sources please.
KDX-3 follow on? No idea. But in the next 5-10 years,  I think I'ld rather have KDX3 than 052C

Modern navies aren't about the cost of shipbuilding but about the cost of the systems on them: steel is cheap, systems aren't. So, the more advanced PLAN will get the more it will face problems faced by all modern navies today: modern capabilities are VERY expensive. Cheap production doesn't offset development costs and the more modern you get the more expensive is getting to the next level.

Anyway, since saying PLAN won't be top dog in the next 15 years apperently is a sin, I apologize humbly  to everyone for being so ignorant, misguided and uninformed. MEA CULPA, MEA MAXIMA CULPA.

i am sure china is more advanced than australia is most areas in term of military technology. and no, just because you have some advanced weapons purchased from the us doesn't make you as advanced as the producers of such weapons.

so please do not use the term "the west" because it is not accurate.

australia is not advanced in any areas, it's a small country with a small economy.

Yeah, sure, very not advanced.

http://www.cea.com.au/products/phasedarray/ceafar.html
http://www.defence.g...ra...ased_array).htm

"A more recent addition is the Jindalee over-the-horizon radar developed by the Australian Department of Defence in 1998 and completed in 2000. Jindalee is a multistatic radar (multiple-receiver) system using OTH-B, allowing it to have both long range as well as anti-stealth capabilities. Interestingly, Jindalee uses 560 kW as compared to the US's OTH-B's 1 MW, yet offers far better range due to considerably improved electronics and signal processing."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-the-horizon_radar


Rank Country GDP - per capita (PPP)  Date of Information
1 Bermuda  $ 69,900  2004 est.  
2 Luxembourg  $ 68,800  2006 est.  
3 Jersey  $ 57,000  2005 est.  
4 Equatorial Guinea  $ 50,200  2005 est.  
5 United Arab Emirates  $ 49,700  2006 est.  
6 Norway  $ 47,800  2006 est.  
7 Guernsey  $ 44,600  2005  
8 Cayman Islands  $ 43,800  2004 est.  
9 Ireland  $ 43,600  2006 est.  
10 United States  $ 43,500  2006 est.  
15 Hong Kong  $ 36,500  2006 est.  
22 Australia  $ 32,900  2006 est.  
25 Netherlands  $ 31,700  2006 est.  
28 United Kingdom  $ 31,400  2006 est.
30 Singapore  $ 30,900  2006 est.  
34 European Union  $ 29,400  2006 est.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...r/2004rank.html

Rank Country GDP (purchasing power parity)  Date of Information
1 World  $ 65,000,000,000,000  2006 est.  
2 United States  $ 12,980,000,000,000  2006 est.  
3 European Union  $ 12,820,000,000,000  2006 est.  
4 China  $ 10,000,000,000,000  2006 est.  
5 Japan  $ 4,220,000,000,000  2006 est.  
6 India  $ 4,042,000,000,000  2006 est.  
7 Germany  $ 2,585,000,000,000  2006 est.  
8 United Kingdom  $ 1,903,000,000,000  2006 est.   
9 France  $ 1,871,000,000,000  2006 est.  
10 Italy  $ 1,727,000,000,000  2006 est.  
19 Australia  $ 666,300,000,000  2006 est.   
26 Netherlands  $ 512,000,000,000  2006 est.  
40 Hong Kong  $ 253,100,000,000  2006 est.

[Caesar]

please define the term "the west"

the us has a leap in most areas, but china is not behind the west as a whole in most areas.

china is behind the us and russia in space technology, but is ahead of all other countries including eu and japan. for now, china and the us are the only two countries that can shoot down satellites. russia failed. and china, russia, and the us are the only countries can put men in space independently. europe and japan are behind.

so, yes, the us is advanced. germany is advanced too in many areas, and so is japan. but definitely not "the west" as a whole.

i am sure china is more advanced than australia is most areas in term of military technology. and no, just because you have some advanced weapons purchased from the us doesn't make you as advanced as the producers of such weapons.

so please do not use the term "the west" because it is not accurate.

australia is not advanced in any areas, it's a small country with a small economy.

and i am from hk, so dun try to say things like on a per capita basis how good u r and how bad we are, because our economy is still much stronger than you on a per capita basis.

You never cease to amaze me....with your illogical arguments Sino....please people here are not fools.....

There are many and many Australian achievements in different fileds of science and technology, I am listing just a very few below:

http://www.dfat.gov.au/facts/sci_achv.html

Some inventive Australians

David Warren invented the black-box flight recorder
Earl Owen pioneered microsurgery
Graeme Clark developed the bionic ear
Sir Howard Florey shared a Nobel Prize in 1945 as co-discoverer of the antibiotic penicillin
James Harrison devised the sulphuric ether refrigerating system for a brewery in 1860
Ralph Sarich engineered the orbital engine.


Australia's Nobel laureates in science
Barry Marshall and Robin Warren won the 2005 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine for their work in identifying the role played by a bacterium in gastritis and peptic ulcers.  

Other Australian scientists numbered among the Nobel laureates include:

Sir William Lawrence Bragg: the 1915 Nobel Prize in Physics (with his father, Sir William Henry Bragg)
Sir Howard (later Lord) Florey: shared the 1945 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine
Sir Frank Macfarlane Burnet: shared the 1960 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine
Sir John Eccles: shared the 1963 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine
Sir John Cornforth: shared the 1975 Nobel Prize in Chemistry
Professor Peter Doherty: shared the 1996 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine.
Life sciences

The CSIRO
The Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation, founded in 1926, has become one of the world's largest and most diverse scientific research institutions. Its total staff of approximately 6 500 includes some 4 000 research scientists and other research staff working in laboratories and field stations in many locations in Australia. Their work covers a broad range of areas of economic or social importance, including agriculture, minerals and energy, manufacturing, communications, construction, health and the environment.
........................Worldwide CSIRO is involved in over 750 current or recently completed research activities, working with leading scientific organisations and firms in the United States, Japan and Europe.


Other Achievements
A team of scientists at the Australian Membrane and Biotechnology Research Institute (AMBRI) have built a functioning nano-machine, which is a device with parts of molecular size. Initially this technology will be used to make extremely sensitive biosensors, but it has a wide range of potential applications.

Australia's tradition of inventiveness affects the everyday lives of millions of people in many countries. Techniques and processes as commonplace as industrial refrigeration, the ready-mix system of transporting concrete and the balloon-in-a-box cask for wine were devised in Australia.

Australia prints its money on polymer, not paper, and other countries are beginning to use this technology. When people around the world use the telephone or the Internet, they rely on basic research associated with scientists who work in Australia. Australians adopted the Internet early, and many Australian websites feature in international 'hot lists', particularly those associated with academic research.

Some Australian inventions are not for everyday use: gene shears for genetic engineering; the Synroc system for storing radioactive waste; the Interscan microwave aircraft landing system; smart proton probes for research into materials and living cells; and nano-machines for bio-sensing.

http://apc-online.com/twa/firsts.html

Notable Australian World Firsts

1838 PRE-PAID POSTAGE
First pre-paid letter-sheets were issued by the New South Wales Post Office.

1843 GRAIN STRIPPER
John Ridley and John Bull of South Australia developed the world's first grain stripper that cut the crop, removed and placed the grain into bins.

1850 REFRIGERATION PLANT
First mechanical refrigeration plant was built by Geelong publisher, James Harrison.

1876 STUMP-JUMP PLOUGH
Robert and Clarence Bowyer Smith developed a plough which could jump over stumps and stones, enabling newly-cleared land to be cultivated.

1882 STRIPPER HARVESTER
The first stripper harvester was conceived by Hugh Victor McKay of Drummartin, Victoria.

1885 TELEPHANE
Henry Sutton's telephane, which transferred signals along telegraph lines, was the forerunner of the television.

1889 ELECTRIC DRILL
Arthur James Arnot patented the world's first electric drill in Melbourne.

1897 DIFFERENTIAL GEARS
David Shearer of South Australia built a steam car with differential inside left rear wheel hub.

1898 TELEPRINTER
The teleprinter for recording messages onto a tape was invented by Donald Murray of Sydney.

1903 FROTH FLOTATION PROCESS
The process of separating minerals from rock by flotation was developed by Charles Potter and Guillaume Delprat of New South Wales.

1905 THRUST BEARING
Anthony Mitchell invented the tilt-pad thrust bearing which revolutionised thrust technology.

1906 FEATURE FILM
The world's first feature length film, The Story of the Kelly Gang, was a little over an hour long.

1907 XEROGRAPHY
The key technology for the invention of xerography was developed by Professor O U Vonwiller at The University of Sydney.

1913 AUTOMATIC TOTALISATOR
Invented by George Julius, the tote automised betting at horse races.

1915 ASPRO
Aspro was developed by Melbourne pharmacist, George Nicholas, and experimenter, Henry Woolf Shmith.

1924 CAR RADIO
The first car radio was fitted to an Australian car built by Kellys Motors in New South Wales.

1925 ELECTRIC RECORD CHANGING SALONOLA
The stepped centre spindle of the invention by Tasmanian Eric Waterworth was later used in record changers worldwide.

1927 PEDAL WIRELESS
The pedal-operated generator, connected to a wireless, was invented by Alfred Traeger.

1928 FLYING DOCTOR SERVICE
Dr Kenyon Welsh and pilot Arthur Affleck began operating the first flying doctor service out of Cloncurry, Queensland.

1934 UTILITY VEHICLE
The utility vehicle, with a front like a car and a rear like a truck was designed by Lewis Brandt at the Ford Motor Company in Geelong, Victoria.

1946 CASTORS
George Shepherd invented the dome shaped castors which replaced traditional pivoted wheel castors.

1952 ATOMIC ABSORPTION SPECTROPHOTOMETER
The complex analytical instrument used in chemical analysis was invented by Sir Alan Walsh of the CSIRO.

1957 TROUSERS WITH PERMANENT CREASES
The process for producing permanently creased fabric was invented by Dr Arthur Farnworth of the CSIRO.

1958 'BLACK BOX' FLIGHT RECORDER
The 'black box' voice and instrument data recorder was invented by Dr David Warren in Melbourne.

ROUND-THE-WORLD AIRLINE SERVICE
The first round-the-world airline service was inaugurated by Qantas.

1965 INFLATABLE AIRCRAFT ESCAPE SLIDE
The inflatable aircraft escape slide which doubles as a raft was invented by Jack Grant of Qantas.

1967 PUNCTURE-PROOF TYRES
Puncture-proof tyres made of hollow rubber segments bolted onto a steel rim, were invented by Alan Burns.

1970 VARIABLE RATIO RACK AND PINION STEERING
The variable ratio rack and pinion steering in motor vehicles was invented by Australian engineer, Arthur Bishop.

LASER BEAM LIGHT HOUSE
The world's first laser beam lighthouse was at Point Danger, New South Wales.

1972 ORBITAL INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE
The orbital combustion process engine was invented by engineer Ralph Sarich of Perth, Western Australia.

1978 SPIRALLY WOUND PLASTIC PIPES
The production of large diameter pipes from spirally wound interlocking plastic strips was invented by South Australian engineer Bill Menzel.

1979 BIONIC EAR
The cochlear implant was invented by Professor Graeme Clark of The University of Melbourne.

RACE CAM
The tiny camera used in sports broadcasts was developed by Australian engineer, Geoff Healey.

COOL LIGHTWEIGHT WOOL FABRICS
The technique for spinning lightweight wool was invented at the CSIRO.

1984 FROZEN EMBRYO BABY
The first frozen embryo baby was born at the Queen Victoria Medical Centre in Melbourne.

WORLD'S MOST EFFICIENT SOLAR CELLS
Dr Stuart Wenham and Professor Martin Green from The University of Sydney invented the world's most efficient solar cells.

CONTINUOUS SELF-CLEANING MICROFILTRATION
A group of engineers and scientists led by Dr Doug Ford invented the continuous self-cleaning microfiltration.

1985 SPINNING CONE FLAVOUR RECOVERY
The system of capturing flavours and aromas normally lost during food processing was invented by Dr Don Casimir at the CSIRO.

WORLD'S BEST LIGHTNING PROTECTION
The first real advancement in lightning protection technology since Franklin's sharp rods and the Faraday cage, was the Dynasphere invented by Rick Gumley of Tasmania.

ORAL VACCINE FOR BRONCHITIS
Oral vaccine to prevent bronchitis was developed by Professor Robert Clancy at the University of Newcastle.

1986 GENE SHEARS
The discovery of gene shears was made by CSIRO scientists, Wayne Gerlach and Jim Haseloff.

1987 TWO-MINUTE AIDS TEST
The world's fastest AIDS test was developed at The University of Melbourne.

COMPUTERISED CANCER DETECTION
Research by Dr Bevan Reid lead to the invention of a computerised device which reliably detects cancerous and pre-cancerous cells.

WAVE PIERCING CATAMARAN
Sydney naval architect Phillip Hercus designed the first wave piercing catamaran.

1988 SPLIT-CYCLE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE
The split-cycle internal combustion engine was invented by engineer, Rick Mayne in Queensland.

CONTROLLED RELEASE ORAL MORPHINE CAPSULES
The world's first controlled release oral morphine capsules were developed by a South Australian company.

BIOLOGICAL PESTICIDES
The first non-chemical biological control agent was invented at The University of Adelaide.

1989 HYDROMETALLURGICAL COPPER PROCESS
The first economic hydrometallurgical process to produce base metals without toxic fumes was invented by Peter Everett of Sydney.

1990 READING MACHINE FOR THE BLIND
The world's first reading machine for the blind was invented by Milan Hudecek of Melbourne, Victoria.

1991 BIO-DEGRADABLE MARINE DEGREASER
The world's first bio-degradable marine degreaser was developed by the CSIRO and the Australian Analytical Laboratories.

1992 MULTI-FOCAL CONTACT LENS
The world's first multi-focal contact lens was invented by optical research scientist, Stephen Newman in Queensland.

1993 UNDERWATER PC
The world's first underwater computer with a five-button hand-held keypad was developed by Bruce Macdonald at the Australian Institute of Marine Science.

1994 NON-INVASIVE TB TEST
The world's first reliable non-invasive TB test, that avoids possible adverse reactions, was developed by scientists in Victoria.

1995 EXELGRAM
The world's most sophisticated optical anti-counterfeiting technology was developed by the CSIRO.

http://www.defence.gov.au/minister/Hilltpl...?CurrentId=5047

AUSTRALIA AND U.S. TO DEVELOP NEW RADAR TECHNOLOGY



Australia and the United States have joined forces in the development of leading edge technology by signing a joint agreement to further develop Australian active phased array radar technology.

Defence Minister Robert Hill said both countries will share the development costs, technical expertise and benefits of the active phased array radar technology which is being developed by ACT electronics company CEA Technologies.

Senator Hill said phased array radar technology has enormous potential to manage high threat environments. The total development cost is estimated to be approximately $30 million over three years.

"The program represents a significant enhancement to already leading edge technology and will help position Australian industry at the forefront of this field," Senator Hill said.

"This makes radar technology a sound investment for Australian industry with potential for extensive application in the future and significant export opportunity.

"I congratulate CEA Technologies for their ongoing support of this project and thank the Defence Materiel Organisation for the work done to bring about this joint project.

"The program will allow further development of the CEA radar technology for possible use in medium to long range air warfare and ballistic missile defence.

"The technology can also be applied to smaller ships and other Australian Defence Force air surveillance assets.

"It also has potential to be used in a range of US programs including the Littoral Combat Ship and other new ship programs, land and land mobile programs, as well as replacing legacy systems on some US ships.

"We have a very close working relationship with the US Navy on this project, with US staff embedded in the project team."

Senator Hill said the program highlighted the Government’s 2000 Defence White Paper commitment to support high technology projects, foster Australian industry’s innovative use of advanced technologies and seek opportunities in the global market.

[zhou]

So, there is no other Asian navy with an SSBN. Does this somehow mean China can fire a nuke at an Asian country at will? Of course not. If would be political suicide on a global scale: there's no country in the world that would not condemn china if it did that in the face of conventional threat only. Having nukes is not the asnwer to all types of threat or conflict. It doesn't work that way.

You absolutely missed my point.The thread is one Asian navy VS another.It's about technicals and stuffs an Asian navy has.What's the business of political factors?If you want to talk about politics,you should go to other threads.Let's imagine PLAN and another Asian navy go to a war.The convinient way for PLAN to win the war is fire her nuclear missiles to her enemy.Then game will be over in 30 minutes and PLAN wins.

[sinodefender]

Even so, the Indians cannot afford to ignore China, given the length of the land border, China-Pakistan relations and, if PLAN develops a people claim it will, its naval reach. Please explain to Archangelesk99 that China has no interest in India.
Would you explain to Sinodefender please.
So, there is no other Asian navy with an SSBN. Does this somehow mean China can fire a nuke at an Asian country at will? Of course not. If would be political suicide on a global scale: there's no country in the world that would not condemn china if it did that in the face of conventional threat only. Having nukes is not the asnwer to all types of threat or conflict. It doesn't work that way.
thpuang, please, all I've said is that I disagree with the timeline. Don't act as if I'm dissing the PLAN alltogether, because I'm not. I'm not talking about slowing down PLAN development, I'm pointing out that the more  of a threat it becomes to neighbours because of its growth, the more the neighbours will take steps to counterbalance the threat. Which is what happens in an arms race.
052D ? Documentation please, sources please.
KDX-3 follow on? No idea. But in the next 5-10 years,  I think I'ld rather have KDX3 than 052C

Modern navies aren't about the cost of shipbuilding but about the cost of the systems on them: steel is cheap, systems aren't. So, the more advanced PLAN will get the more it will face problems faced by all modern navies today: modern capabilities are VERY expensive. Cheap production doesn't offset development costs and the more modern you get the more expensive is getting to the next level.

Anyway, since saying PLAN won't be top dog in the next 15 years apperently is a sin, I apologize humbly  to everyone for being so ignorant, misguided and uninformed. MEA CULPA, MEA MAXIMA CULPA.
Yeah, sure, very not advanced.

http://www.cea.com.au/products/phasedarray/ceafar.html
http://www.defence.g...ra...ased_array).htm

"A more recent addition is the Jindalee over-the-horizon radar developed by the Australian Department of Defence in 1998 and completed in 2000. Jindalee is a multistatic radar (multiple-receiver) system using OTH-B, allowing it to have both long range as well as anti-stealth capabilities. Interestingly, Jindalee uses 560 kW as compared to the US's OTH-B's 1 MW, yet offers far better range due to considerably improved electronics and signal processing."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Over-the-horizon_radar
Rank Country GDP - per capita (PPP)  Date of Information
1 Bermuda  $ 69,900  2004 est.  
2 Luxembourg  $ 68,800  2006 est.  
3 Jersey  $ 57,000  2005 est.  
4 Equatorial Guinea  $ 50,200  2005 est.  
5 United Arab Emirates  $ 49,700  2006 est.  
6 Norway  $ 47,800  2006 est.  
7 Guernsey  $ 44,600  2005  
8 Cayman Islands  $ 43,800  2004 est.  
9 Ireland  $ 43,600  2006 est.  
10 United States  $ 43,500  2006 est.  
15 Hong Kong  $ 36,500  2006 est.  
22 Australia  $ 32,900  2006 est.  
25 Netherlands  $ 31,700  2006 est.  
28 United Kingdom  $ 31,400  2006 est.
30 Singapore  $ 30,900  2006 est.  
34 European Union  $ 29,400  2006 est.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/th...r/2004rank.html

Rank Country GDP (purchasing power parity)  Date of Information
1 World  $ 65,000,000,000,000  2006 est.  
2 United States  $ 12,980,000,000,000  2006 est.  
3 European Union  $ 12,820,000,000,000  2006 est.  
4 China  $ 10,000,000,000,000  2006 est.  
5 Japan  $ 4,220,000,000,000  2006 est.  
6 India  $ 4,042,000,000,000  2006 est.  
7 Germany  $ 2,585,000,000,000  2006 est.  
8 United Kingdom  $ 1,903,000,000,000  2006 est.   
9 France  $ 1,871,000,000,000  2006 est.  
10 Italy  $ 1,727,000,000,000  2006 est.  
19 Australia  $ 666,300,000,000  2006 est.   
26 Netherlands  $ 512,000,000,000  2006 est.  
40 Hong Kong  $ 253,100,000,000  2006 est.

see! you even quoted urself. we are higher than you on a per capita basis, and china is higher than you on an overall basis.

You never cease to amaze me....with your illogical arguments Sino....please people here are not fools.....

There are many and many Australian achievements in different fileds of science and technology, I am listing just a very few below:

then please tell me how my arguments are illogical instead of giving open ended comments.

australia might have some achievements, but it is by no means an advanced country in technology. it purchases most of the stuff from overseas.

yes, countries like the us and germany are advanced, but not every western country is technologically advanced. so using the term "the west" to define the technological level of all western countries as if they were one country is illogical.

the us is advanced, but it has nothing to do with you assusies.

but yet, in terms of infrastructures, countries like the us and uk are really bad and are much worse than china.

[vvvaidya29]

why would you destroy someone else's satellite to test your missile?
for now, all satelites are the same and are not installed with any military devices or protection whatsoever.

yes u cant destroy someone else's satelite for test but just one single test against own retired satelite does not mean that u can shoot any ameircan satelite in the war time just like that....all satelites are not same,besides while shooting ur own satalite u have exact accurate data,location and other calculations to u,but u wont have such info while shooting down an amercian sat...to achive this with an assured success with pin point accuracy everytime in the future u have long way to go and many many tests to be taken....one single test is not going to help...dont tell me...

you gotta understand that to win a war is all about how good you can sustain such a war.
india has no economy base to sustain a war with china. that's all we know.

dont act smart now....as far as im concerned im not talking here anything india vs china...im talking abt USA and china...when u guys start loosing the argument u ppl just try to drag India for no reason....

and yes, the us does have a leap in most areas, but china is not far behind in all of those. plus, we have never said that china is as advanced as the us. we have never said that. chinese people are taught to be humble since childhood. and we don't exagerrate things like the indians. but china is not interested in comparing with india.

china is not FAR BEHIND??? well friend,china is very advanced when u comapre it to asian countries like India...but when it comes to america,no u r wrong...when world used to compose romantic poems while looking at moon in 60's, the american were there landing on the moon....forgot their pathfinder???when did it landed on MARS???yeah u r rite...china is not FAR BEHIND of USA...

no chinese people care about india. we like to compare with the best, and that is the us, definitely not india.
that's the point i am trying to make. and it's just laughable when you think india is stronger than china. they might have purchased some equippment from the russia that they think are unbeatable.
but the strength of the country as a whole has is no match against china.

once agin...drag India while discussing to other Indian members here...not with me....im talking abt USA....

let me repeat once more, winning a war is all about the economy. when you have the economy large enough to support a war, then u will win it unless it goes nuclear.
when china has an economy 4x of usa's, and the war doesn't go nuclear, doesn't matter how many years the us is ahead of china's, china will win it eventually. right now, the gap is decreasing, and the economy of china is getting larger everyday. that's why the us is scared. they are not scared because of the technology advancement of china, but they are scared of china's strength as a country.
if china dumps its holding of us t bills today, the usa will go bankrupt, and forget about all the military power. it'll be one in one day.

honestly speaking as an asian even i would love to see an asian country like china ahead of USA...but seems very difficult......AMERICA after all we are talking abt.....have u seen SPIDERMAN3 by the way?????

[sinodefender]

yes u cant destroy someone else's satelite for test but just one single test against own retired satelite does not mean that u can shoot any ameircan satelite in the war time just like that....all satelites are not same,besides while shooting ur own satalite u have exact accurate data,location and other calculations to u,but u wont have such info while shooting down an amercian sat...to achive this with an assured success with pin point accuracy everytime in the future u have long way to go and many many tests to be taken....one single test is not going to help...dont tell me...
dont act smart now....as far as im concerned im not talking here anything india vs china...im talking abt USA and china...when u guys start loosing the argument u ppl just try to drag India for no reason....
china is not FAR BEHIND??? well friend,china is very advanced when u comapre it to asian countries like India...but when it comes to america,no u r wrong...when world used to compose romantic poems while looking at moon in 60's, the american were there landing on the moon....forgot their pathfinder???when did it landed on MARS???yeah u r rite...china is not FAR BEHIND of USA...
once agin...drag India while discussing to other Indian members here...not with me....im talking abt USA....
honestly speaking as an asian even i would love to see an asian country like china ahead of USA...but seems very difficult......AMERICA after all we are talking abt.....have u seen SPIDERMAN3 by the way?????

i am still right. while china is behind the us in some areas, it is not far behind in ALL of the fields. for example, i dun see any maglev trains running in the us. i dun see any good infrastructures in the us that can compare with those in china. yes, militarily, the us is strong. that's because it has the strongest and largest economy in the world FOR NOW. when china has the largest economy in the world, it also will have one of the most advanced technological level is not the most advanced. the leap we are talking about here is not like the difference between a qing dynasty china and a western power of the same time. we are only talking about years that can be easily caught up. 100 years ago, because of the manchu barbarians, china was behind the west by centuries. now we are only behind by years. and the gap is narrowing at a rapid rate.

yes, FOR NOW, china is behind the us, but we are talking about asian navies here in 2020.
we don't know what will happen in 2020, but chances are china will be much strong and more advanced and the gap between china and the us will be very small if not already eliminated.

1000 years ago, china outpaced the rest of the world by centuries. things changed fast man.

besides, i dun agree with the general use of the term asian to refer to all people living on the asia continent. asia is very diverse and big. i dun like to associate the chinese with other asians because people are just so different. chinese people are chinese people. indian people are indian people. they are as different as chinese vs white or black.

[penguin]

You absolutely missed my point.The thread is one Asian navy VS another.It's about technicals and stuffs an Asian navy has.What's the business of political factors?If you want to talk about politics,you should go to other threads.Let's imagine PLAN and another Asian navy go to a war.The convinient way for PLAN to win the war is fire her nuclear missiles to her enemy.Then game will be over in 30 minutes and PLAN wins.

You really think PLAN would settle a conflict against another Asian  navy with a nuke? This is not what the nuke on SSBN are for. It represents a total lack of understanding what SSBN are for: STRATEGIC deterrance (i.e. vice other nuclear powers e.g. US, USSR)

see! you even quoted urself. we are higher than you on a per capita basis, and china is higher than you on an overall basis.
then please tell me how my arguments are illogical instead of giving open ended comments.

australia might have some achievements, but it is by no means an advanced country in technology. it purchases most of the stuff from overseas.

yes, countries like the us and germany are advanced, but not every western country is technologically advanced. so using the term "the west" to define the technological level of all western countries as if they were one country is illogical.

the us is advanced, but it has nothing to do with you assusies.

but yet, in terms of infrastructures, countries like the us and uk are really bad and are much worse than china.

China is not higher than us in ths per capita list. It is not even in the per capita list provided.
Why is the fact that I think China/PLAN will not be the top Asian navy in the next 13 years so offensive to you? I've stated that I think it will take LONGER, not that it won't happen. What is your problem?

[Admiral]

You really think PLAN would settle a conflict against another Asian  navy with a nuke? This is not what the nuke on SSBN are for. It represents a total lack of understanding what SSBN are for: STRATEGIC deterrance (i.e. vice other nuclear powers e.g. US, USSR)
China is not higher than us in ths per capita list. It is not even in the per capita list provided.

China is about 3x higher than India in nominal GDP and over 2.5x higher in GDP by PPP.

Per capita China is about 2x higher than india in terms of GDP by PPP, and nearly 3x higher in per capita in nominal GDP.

nominal GDP per capita
PPP GDP per capita
Overall nominal GDP
Overall PPP GDP

But ya I agree about the SSBN, the point of nukes overall is just to have deterrance.

[penguin]

China is about 3x higher than India in nominal GDP and over 2.5x higher in GDP by PPP.

Per capita China is about 2x higher than india in terms of GDP by PPP, and nearly 3x higher in per capita in nominal GDP.

nominal GDP per capita
PPP GDP per capita
Overall nominal GDP
Overall PPP GDP

But ya I agree about the SSBN, the point of nukes overall is just to have deterrance.

Hello, pay attention, I'm from the Netherlands, not India.
#10 by GDP (nominal) per capita and by GDP (PPP) per capita IMF, 18 CIA
#16 by GDP (nominal) IMF and CIA
#23 by GDP (PPP) IMF, 21 world bank, 24 CIA.

[Caesar]

australia might have some achievements, but it is by no means an advanced country in technology. it purchases most of the stuff from overseas.

   Dude what stuff are you on.......this is getting really insane!!!

http://english.people.com.cn/200505/10/eng...510_184306.html

China is Australia's 2nd largest export market
        

Figures released by Australian Bureau of Statistics yesterday show China imported 8.8 billion Australia Dollars (AUD) from Australia over the 9 months by March this fiscal year. China is Australia's second largest export market.

Japan is still the largest buyer. Australian exports to Japan reached 17.6 billion AUD over the same period.

By People's Daily Online

yes, countries like the us and germany are advanced,

Sino....dude please don't talk nonsense.......CHINA IS NOT ADVANCE--it is a DEVELOPING COUNTRY. I actually called the the World Bank office in Sydney and asked them if China has suddenly become advance? They have told me that that China is still a developing country and have assured me that nothing has changed within the last 24-hours to make China an advance country overnight!!!    

[zhou]

You really think PLAN would settle a conflict against another Asian  navy with a nuke? This is not what the nuke on SSBN are for. It represents a total lack of understanding what SSBN are for: STRATEGIC deterrance (i.e. vice other nuclear powers e.g. US, USSR)

Firstly political reason then strategic deterrance,finally you go to USN or Soviet navy.Apparantlly you had tried to avoid answering the question directly.Read the title of this thread and my posts before posting.

PS:members here still want to know why  PLA won't buy FBC-1/JH7A
http://pakistanidefenceforum.com/index.php?showtopic=66537

[sinodefender]

You really think PLAN would settle a conflict against another Asian  navy with a nuke? This is not what the nuke on SSBN are for. It represents a total lack of understanding what SSBN are for: STRATEGIC deterrance (i.e. vice other nuclear powers e.g. US, USSR)
China is not higher than us in ths per capita list. It is not even in the per capita list provided.
Why is the fact that I think China/PLAN will not be the top Asian navy in the next 13 years so offensive to you? I've stated that I think it will take LONGER, not that it won't happen. What is your problem?

I meant HK is higher than Australia on the per capita list. and China is higher than Australia as a whole.
Yes, the US is advanced, but i jsut have problems with people referring themselves as the west to try to represent the us... like the guy i talked to.

   Dude what stuff are you on.......this is getting really insane!!!
Sino....dude please don't talk nonsense.......CHINA IS NOT ADVANCE--it is a DEVELOPING COUNTRY. I actually called the the World Bank office in Sydney and asked them if China has suddenly become advance? They have told me that that China is still a developing country and have assured me that nothing has changed within the last 24-hours to make China an advance country overnight!!!    

we haven't said china is advanced. we know that it's a developing country. no one denies it. so stop putting things in my mouth. and i am from hk actually. and i am in the us for school. so i know better about the us and china and you do.

but australia isn't as advanced as the us and germany either.

so stop using the west to try to make all these countries as if they were one country. that's the point i am trying to make.

[vvvaidya29]

i am still right. while china is behind the us in some areas, it is not far behind in ALL of the fields. for example, i dun see any maglev trains running in the us. i dun see any good infrastructures in the us that can compare with those in china.

see americans always had good infrastucture and rail network...may be now china has good infrastucture and maglav trains but it doesnt mean that USA cannot have them...as i said they always had good infrastcture and trains and even today they r comfortable with it...they dont NEED to change it just becuase china have it....if they feel like changing then they can...this is the only diffrnece...but it doesnt mean that china is something more or equally advanced...

yes, militarily, the us is strong. that's because it has the strongest and largest economy in the world FOR NOW.

not only militarily...be it space,nuclear,medical,elctronics,softwares,vehicles,construction any science u name and USA is ahead of not only china but any country...

when china has the largest economy in the world, it also will have one of the most advanced technological level is not the most advanced.

then wait till then......

the leap we are talking about here is not like the difference between a qing dynasty china and a western power of the same time. we are only talking about years that can be easily caught up. 100 years ago, because of the manchu barbarians, china was behind the west by centuries. now we are only behind by years. and the gap is narrowing at a rapid rate.

gap might be narrowing...but west is also not going to sit idle dear....by the time china have somethin in the class of JSF (offcourse not before 2020) by then USA will have something which will even surpass the Raptor.....imagine what kind of fighter it will be....right now no chinese jet can even challange F-16 Block 60....

yes, FOR NOW, china is behind the us, but we are talking about asian navies here in 2020.
we don't know what will happen in 2020, but chances are china will be much strong and more advanced and the gap between china and the us will be very small if not already eliminated.

China is a gr8 power dear...but their main problem is no access to western tech...we r talking here abt best navies 2020....in my opinion it will be Japanese navy if I dont count american asian fleets...nobody will agree with me here but trust me if Indian navy goes for SH or rafales then even we will have the more advanced navy than PLAN that too before 2020,let alone japan...usually I dont like to talk IF stuff but why im saying here cuz u guys are here especially on PDF too much underetimate Japan,India and america without considering the fact that these nations are also some serious naval operaters and also have access to wetern tech while u do not u have that luxury and even then u guys just start predicting that how china will have the best navy in 2020 based on all indigenous stuff......now if we dont go for rafales then china will have more powerful navy than india but not japan.....Japan was the best navy,is the best navy and will always be.....when we are predicting something then calculations of some realities becomes must...

besides, i dun agree with the general use of the term asian to refer to all people living on the asia continent. asia is very diverse and big. i dun like to associate the chinese with other asians because people are just so different. chinese people are chinese people. indian people are indian people. they are as different as chinese vs white or black.

nobody is saying indians and chinese r same...but we are asians...like it or dont like it....

[sinodefender]

see americans always had good infrastucture and rail network...may be now china has good infrastucture and maglav trains but it doesnt mean that USA cannot have them...as i said they always had good infrastcture and trains and even today they r comfortable with it...they dont NEED to change it just becuase china have it....if they feel like changing then they can...this is the only diffrnece...but it doesnt mean that china is something more or equally advanced...
not only militarily...be it space,nuclear,medical,elctronics,softwares,vehicles,construction any science u name and USA is ahead of not only china but any country...
then wait till then......
gap might be narrowing...but west is also not going to sit idle dear....by the time china have somethin in the class of JSF (offcourse not before 2020) by then USA will have something which will even surpass the Raptor.....imagine what kind of fighter it will be....right now no chinese jet can even challange F-16 Block 60....
China is a gr8 power dear...but their main problem is no access to western tech...we r talking here abt best navies 2020....in my opinion it will be Japanese navy if I dont count american asian fleets...nobody will agree with me here but trust me if Indian navy goes for SH or rafales then even we will have the more advanced navy than PLAN that too before 2020,let alone japan...usually I dont like to talk IF stuff but why im saying here cuz u guys are here especially on PDF to much underetimate Japan,India and america without considering the fact that these nations are also some serious naval operaters and also have access to wetern tech while u do not u have that luxury and even then u guys just start predicting that how china will have the best navy in 2020 based on all indigenous stuff......now if we dont go for rafales then china will have more powerful navy than india but not japan.....Japan was the best navy,is the best navy and will always be.....when we are predicting something then calculations of some realities becomes must...
nobody is saying indians and chinese r same...but we are asians...like it or dont like it....

have u never been to the us???

america has never had good infrastructures. it has never had, doesn't have, and is not likely to have in the future.

i live in boston.

infrastructures in the us are shxt compared to shanghai / hong kong.

if we talk about infrastructures, china is already ahead of the us by far!

the us might have a world class military, but it has second class ghetto cities all over the country.

to some indians or aussies, the us might be god, a master that you would kill yourself to serve. but i can't wait till i graduate and leave for good.

yes, it has good education, but us cities are realy ghetto.

[penguin]

Firstly political reason then strategic deterrance,finally you go to USN or Soviet navy.Apparantlly you had tried to avoid answering the question directly.Read the title of this thread and my posts before posting.

Now you are being childish. China did not develop SSBN in response or with a view to the military/naval threat from another Asian country.

I meant HK is higher than Australia on the per capita list. and China is higher than Australia as a whole.
Yes, the US is advanced, but i jsut have problems with people referring themselves as the west to try to represent the us... like the guy i talked to.

so stop using the west to try to make all these countries as if they were one country. that's the point i am trying to make.

Uhm, for your information, when I said 'us' I was referring to The Netherlands (as in 'we, Dutch'), not to the U.S.

Interesting you should ask not to refer to 'the West': I've seen quite a few rants here against 'the West' where the ranter was unwilling or unable to become specific about what countries that entails, and how they would all somehow be the same. So, I fully support your plea for specificity!

[cruiser79]

have u never been to the us???

america has never had good infrastructures. it has never had, doesn't have, and is not likely to have in the future.

i live in boston.

infrastructures in the us are shxt compared to shanghai / hong kong.

if we talk about infrastructures, china is already ahead of the us by far!

the us might have a world class military, but it has second class ghetto cities all over the country.

to some indians or aussies, the us might be god, a master that you would kill yourself to serve. but i can't wait till i graduate and leave for good.

yes, it has good education, but us cities are realy ghetto.

Yeah rite!!I mean I've heard trash talk before but you take it to a whole new level... The US has no infrastructure... forget the interstates, the air network n every thing in between (like those millions of top of the line automobiles)...I've been around in Asia (India, Nepal, Malaysia, Indonesia,Singapore,Thailand) Australasia (New Zealand, Australia) North America n a bit of Europe(Paris, London) (though I havent been to China) n by far n wide oceans apart US has the best freakin 'infrastructure' on gods green earth... You're waitin to go back to china after you graduate but why did you come to this ghetto in the first place when top of the line chinese universities in'Shanghai' n'HK' would have given you the degree with half the trouble... N FYI there are a million chinese in grad schools in the US who dont go back for years for fear of the fact that they might not be able to come back so lay easy on the 'I cant wait to go back' cause that just speaks for yourself

[Caesar]

Yeah rite!!I mean I've heard trash talk before but you take it to a whole new level... The US has no infrastructure... forget the interstates, the air network n every thing in between (like those millions of top of the line automobiles)...I've been around in Asia (India, Nepal, Malaysia, Indonesia,Singapore,Thailand) Australasia (New Zealand, Australia) North America n a bit of Europe(Paris, London) (though I havent been to China) n by far n wide oceans apart US has the best freakin 'infrastructure' on gods green earth... You're waitin to go back to china after you graduate but why did you come to this ghetto in the first place when top of the line chinese universities in'Shanghai' n'HK' would have given you the degree with half the trouble... N FYI there are a million chinese in grad schools in the US who dont go back for years for fear of the fact that they might not be able to come back so lay easy on the 'I cant wait to go back' cause that just speaks for yourself

Don't worry about him mate.......he talks such unbelievable nonsense that it's not funny anymore!!! Absolute rubbish!!!

[sinodefender]

Don't worry about him mate.......he talks such unbelievable nonsense that it's not funny anymore!!! Absolute rubbish!!!

if u think i am talking nonsense, then come to the us yourself.

i am currently located in boston, ma, and i've been almost all big cities in the us. i've gone to school in the us since high school. and this is my 9th year, and i think i know what i am talking about.

come to the us and go to hk and you will know there's no comparison and the us does not have good infrastructures.

i've been to most of the us, europe, canada, australia, japan, and many developing countries in asia.

the only places that have really good infrastructures are japan, hong kong, and shanghai.

london, nyc, boston, and most other asian cities do not have good infrastructures. singapore is ok, but not exordinarily great.

Yeah rite!!I mean I've heard trash talk before but you take it to a whole new level... The US has no infrastructure... forget the interstates, the air network n every thing in between (like those millions of top of the line automobiles)...I've been around in Asia (India, Nepal, Malaysia, Indonesia,Singapore,Thailand) Australasia (New Zealand, Australia) North America n a bit of Europe(Paris, London) (though I havent been to China) n by far n wide oceans apart US has the best freakin 'infrastructure' on gods green earth... You're waitin to go back to china after you graduate but why did you come to this ghetto in the first place when top of the line chinese universities in'Shanghai' n'HK' would have given you the degree with half the trouble... N FYI there are a million chinese in grad schools in the US who dont go back for years for fear of the fact that they might not be able to come back so lay easy on the 'I cant wait to go back' cause that just speaks for yourself

like i said, go to HONG KONG, and you will know what good infrastructures really mean.

yes, the us has good education, its schools are much better than the chinese ones. but in the area of infrastructures, hong kong or shanghai is 10 x times better.

there are great things about the us like education, technology, etc... but infrastrcutures are not one of them. come on, be realistic. when the us has a leap in some areas, i admit that it does, but it is not all that great in all areas. and definitely not infrastructures.

have you been to the subway in the us? public transportation almost does not exist. roads are very badly paved with pot holes everywhere. airports are crowded and old. and roads are old and stuff. i mean compare to india, it might have very good infrastructures. and it probably did have the best infrastuructres 50 years ago. but it's not that great by current standards.

[sinodefender]

in the areas of:

airport

subway

highway

bridges

roads

ports

docks

in what area is any city in the us better than hong kong/ shanghai?

while it's 1 min/ train during rush hr in hk, and the train is super high speed in hk, you often have to wait 10+min for a train in the us that goes super slow.

have u ever been stuck in traffic in nyc/ la?

have you ever had a flat tire in the us because of hitting a pot hole?

do you have to turn on your headlights at night in the us when driving? legally, u have to everywhere, but in hk u dun even need to turn on the lights at night to drive and you can even see the numbers at the dash board.

airport, there's no comparison. doesn't even come close.

birdges, highways, ok, just read about the big dig project of boston, and you will know how bad it is.

please tell me in what area of infrastructures is the us better than hk/shanghai? any city. be it nyc, la.

the us has a good military, but all the money unfortunately goes to the military and not the social projects that are crucial to regular people.

and it's us foreign students bringing billions of money to the us to subsidize the us school system. yes, the us does have good education, and hk's high education is too competitive. not that it's bad in hong kong, it's just too competitive and too hard to get into a good school.

we hong kong chinese can build a world class city from nothing on a piece of rock. we chinese really are something that you can't imagine.
yes, the british gave us a good political environment and we didn't fall into the disease of communism because of them, but nothing more than that, and their intention wasn't a great one altho the outcome turned out to be benefitial to hong kong. look at all ex british colonies, all are poor except for hong kong and singpoare (both achieved a per capita gdp higher than all four big economies western europe), and in those places, it's the chinese enterprenuers that built the cities as they are today.

http://www.pbase.com/accl/hong_kong

those pictures of the city and infrastructures are real and are not psed.

some american friends i have don't believe it and think that it's photo shopped. how sad is that?

[vvvaidya29]

Yeah rite!!I mean I've heard trash talk before but you take it to a whole new level... The US has no infrastructure... forget the interstates, the air network n every thing in between (like those millions of top of the line automobiles)...I've been around in Asia (India, Nepal, Malaysia, Indonesia,Singapore,Thailand) Australasia (New Zealand, Australia) North America n a bit of Europe(Paris, London) (though I havent been to China) n by far n wide oceans apart US has the best freakin 'infrastructure' on gods green earth... You're waitin to go back to china after you graduate but why did you come to this ghetto in the first place when top of the line chinese universities in'Shanghai' n'HK' would have given you the degree with half the trouble... N FYI there are a million chinese in grad schools in the US who dont go back for years for fear of the fact that they might not be able to come back so lay easy on the 'I cant wait to go back' cause that just speaks for yourself

Fantastic reply....

[sinodefender]

Fantastic reply....

horrible reply

i didn't say the us has NO infrastructures.

i said it has no GOOD infrastrucutres. all the infrastructures are old and bad now.

[JET_Flash]

Indian Navy: Three Aircraft Carrier Force By 2017; INS Vikramaditya Delayed Till 2010

Daily News & Updates
India Defence Premium
Dated 17/5/2007

The Indian Defence Minister A.K.Antony has publicly confirmed that the Indian Navy would induct a third aircraft carrier by 2017 in addition to the Admiral Gorshkov and the indigenous Air Defence Ship (ADS).

The minister said that the order for a third carrier -- to be built by Cochin Shipyard Ltd -- will be placed after construction of the ADS progresses "beyond a certain range".

"Induction of the third aircraft carrier is envisaged by 2017. At present, Cochin Shipyard Ltd, Kochi, is the only yard in the country that possesses the capability to undertake construction of such a ship," Antony said in a statement before the Rajya Sabha today. The Defence Minister was elaborating on the "action taken" on the recommendations of a parliamentary panel on defence.

While naval officers have for long stated that three aircraft carrier groups are essential to protect India's maritime interests, Antony has for the first time given a time line for the induction of the additional carrier.

The Navy will get a refitted Admiral Gorshkov with its compliment of 16 MiG 29 K aircraft by 2010. The indigenous ADS will arrive only by 2014. India's sole carrier, INS Viraat, is scheduled for decommissioning in 2012.

Senior Navy officers said the order for the second carrier is likely to be placed around 2010, after the ADS has been launched from the Cochin Shipyard. "Once the ADS gets launched from the shipyard for further fittings, the order for the second carrier can be placed," an officer said.

With the induction of a second indigenous ship by 2017, the Indian Navy will for the first time operate three aircraft carriers. This would ensure the Navy has two operational carriers at any given point with the third one in for refits.

Indian defense premium

[lein303]

Wrong post..edited

[Caesar]

horrible reply

i didn't say the us has NO infrastructures.

i said it has no GOOD infrastrucutres. all the infrastructures are old and bad now.

Sino....dude how many times are you gonna change your own statements and arguments above??? You arguments are silly!! Be realistic.......I use to think that the indians brag and boast like insanes......are you  proving that you are no different? A lot of our Chinese mates here are at least realistic....even tphung who I would like to call Mr. J-10 posts very logical posts......what are you trying to prove???    

[harrypotter]

Sinodefender, please stop it, you have to face the reality. Please do not make urself look like an indian, please. Chinese people dont need the bragging championship. Some people already hold the title.

[sinodefender]

Sinodefender, please stop it, you have to face the reality. Please do not make urself look like an indian, please. Chinese people dont need the bragging championship. Some people already hold the title.

why dun u guys be realistic and try to see the world out there?

i'm the only one here who's been to all the places we are discussing.

be realistic and dun make yourself look like a fool.

why dun you find something that can counter my statements instead? this doesn't make u look too great...

i've lived in the us for the past 9 years and i think i know what i am talking about.

i dun feel too well about people saying the west is best in every field while it is really not. infrastructure is an example of the area where the west is behind the east (shanghai, hk, japan). accept the facts pls.

the us has the best military. no question about it. when it's good in something, i point it. when it's bad in something, i will also point it out.
yes, china was a shxt hole when i was little, but it is a shxt hole no more. why dun u be realistic and accept the facts?

and hk has the best infrastructures in the world. why dun u google a little and do a little research before assuming anything.

i dun blame u guys because u guys have really not seen anything or experienced anything. why dun u ask some westerns who've lived in shanghai or hk about the infrastructures?

why can't u guys accept that ur behind the east in some area? is it so hard to accept the truth? what u guys said would've been absolutely true 15 years ago, but it is no longer accurate. be realistic and catch up with the world that is ever changing.

all countries in the world have their goods and bads. just because one country is the most powerful in the world doesn't make it the best in every area.

the us has a good education system but a bad social security system. it has a good military but bad infrastructures. it's just annoying when people keep saying it's best in every area while it is not and they haven't seen it themselves.

dun tell me u've been to hk because if u have u would agree with me.