1821 replies to this topic

[Saqr]

Right on target ISI2003!

[JF17Thunder]

DF! I think you mean block 52+ coz the it is different from block 52 as i mentioned above.

My point is almost what you emphasized in your above post as well. Let me re-word for all, using your text. It will perhaps not be feasible for a country like ours to go for block 60 (6 billion option) when we can get most of its lethality from block 52+ (3 Billion option)? After all the most important sensor in a aircraft is the radar. So may be its best if we only get the radar of block 60 and put it in a block 52+ and may be we will have to pay only like 3.5 billion dollars.

ISI! I think even am AMRAAM / AIM9X loaded block 52+ with an excellent EW suite and radar should be a good match to MKI specially in an airdefence role. However, if we do need to go for Rafael, it would only be if we dont exercise the F-16 option and will also be a good choice albeit in lesser number. I think that at the moment we should stick with F-16s.

[ISI2003]

DF! I think you mean block 52+ coz the it is different from block 52 as i mentioned above.

My point is almost what you emphasized in your above post as well. Let me re-word for all, using your text. It will perhaps not be feasible for a country like ours to go for block 60 (6 billion option) when we can get most of its lethality from block 52+ (3 Billion option)? After all the most important sensor in a aircraft is the radar. So may be its best if we only get the radar of block 60 and put it in a block 52+ and may be we will have to pay only like 3.5 billion dollars.

ISI! I think even am AMRAAM / AIM9X loaded block 52+ with an excellent EW suite and radar should be a good match to MKI specially in an airdefence role. However, if we do need to go for Rafael, it would only be if we dont exercise the F-16 option and will also be a good choice albeit in lesser number. I think that at the moment we should stick with F-16s.

that is what DF was saying, we can't just put the radar in the plane, because the block 52+ costs 45 million and the radr of the block 60 cost 30 million, and 5 million more for block 60 exclusive items

second, we need numbers so 70 f-16 block 52+'s and 40 rafales is more planes then just 70 block 60's

finally we need to be a part of french defense plans, so they don't go toward the indian axis

considering the israeli have finished development of an asea radar for the su-30mki it is now even more lethal, so we really need the rafale, with its active cancellation, proposed TVC, ASEA, and great weapons packages that will be open to us, all these as well as political connections with other allies that get the rafales

all this makes the rafale a great plane giving us great returns for our 3 billion dollar investment

finally a deal should be done within our current regime, or else we don't know how the next regime will react to the military asking for money for what we really need to counter the growing indian threat, because who better then the military to know exactly what the military needs    

[shahid_2dk]

New built F-16s can last for up to atleast 20-25 years.

Hehe DF, what I meant was a longer time in the air without need to refuel ;)   (<- just joking ;))

[metalfalcon]

hello hi and aslaam alakum ........i would like to say only one thing can u trust america .well i dont think sooooooo. we can trust a dog but not usa we can trust a snake but not usa ,, america has alwayz betrayed us so how we can trust usa now.

i think the ban on pakistan military supplies was a blessing in disguise ,we were unable to buy new weapons from foreign countries so we made our own ,, by the grace of allah almighty we are now sulf sufficient in our defence needs we have the one of the best tank in the world (al khalid and al zarrar) piont to be noted they r indegously prepared not bought from any foriegn country especially usa, we have one of the most modern and advanced submarines that also MADE IN PAKISTAN and we made one of the best fighter jets in asia the jf-17 thunder thier quality is little low as compared to usa but they r good  .

i know we made things with the help of france and china but no doubt they r MADE IN PAKISTAN . so instead of wasting such a huge amount of money on buying f-16s we can start our own new programe and lets make aircrafts better on the other side if we buy jets 4m usa we will be dependent on them for repairing and spare parts i think we r citizens of a soverign state so just f****k this deal and lets work together and be proud pakistanis

i know tomorrow usa will say u bloody muslim terrorists i am not going 2 give u any spare parts or new jets u dont obey me u dont accept israel u dont accept indian demands and balllla ballla etc i think china is our best frnd we have to work together and one day will come inshallah when we will be able kick the stinky ass of usa and israel  

[JF17Thunder]

"that is what DF was saying, we can't just put the radar in the plane"
For one thing the avionics suite of both block 52+ and block 60 share quite a few smiliar technologies like the internal ECM suite and the Advanced IFF and RWR etc (both these blocks were being developed at arround the same time) and thirdly the block 60 used an upgraded MMC of the block 52+. And finally the block 52+ has the same structure as the block 60. Therefore, i dont see why it should not be possible to just fit in the AESA radar within the block 52+ avionics (ofc they will need to do certian minimum level of testing but lets not mix that with development and detailed testing) Block 60 is like an avionics and radar upgrade to block 52+ among other things

"because the block 52+ costs 45 million and the radr of the block 60 cost 30 million, and 5 million more for block 60 exclusive items"
I dont think this would be the case. THe block 60 costs arround 65 Mil. It has atleast the following major differences with block 52+ other than the radar
1 Upgraded Modular Mission Computer
2 Integrated Electronic Warfare Management System
3 A more powerful engine (GE132)
4 Fibre optic data buses
5 Additional chaff/flare dispensers
6 Internal flir and targeting system (eliminating the need to carry any kind of targetting pod)
Now the block 60 is about 20 Mil expensive than the block 52+. I understand that the cost of IFTS is about 3.5 Mil, even if all the other additions and upgradations eat up like 10 Mil, the differential cost of the radar comes to about 7.5 Mil (It actually might be even lesser)

"second, we need numbers so 70 f-16 block 52+'s and 40 rafales is more planes then just 70 block 60's"
I never said we should go for block 60, rather should only use its radar and Rafaels are more expensive than block 60s. We will need (45*70+75*40) $6.15 Billion for this. Now consider out other urgent requirements of AWACS, JF-17, Advanced Weapons ( UAE purchased 2 Billion worth of weapons for its 80 block 60 fighters) and also further acquisition and upgradation of F-7PG's (and may be air refeulers as well). All this coming in about next 5 years. Don't see how we can finance all this in such a short period of time. As to filling in the numbers need, probably the JF's and PG's armed with SD-10 and some HMS/WVR missile would do.

"finally we need to be a part of french defense plans, so they don't go toward the indian axis"
Agreed. But we will need to come up with other ideas to establish / continue a healthy strategic military partnership with the French untill we are in a position to buy Rafaels (10 years time at the earliest)

"considering the israeli have finished development of an asea radar for the su-30mki it is now even more lethal, so we really need the rafale, with its active cancellation, proposed TVC, ASEA, and great weapons packages that will be open to us, all these as well as political connections with other allies that get the rafales"
The US weapons are surely better than the French and battle proven, for as long as we are getting them. An AESA equipped block 52+ should be able to take on MKI. Its CFT's will enable almost as much range and an MKI (3000 kms with 2 PGMs of 2000 lbs and 4 AAMs) and the underwing tanks can always be removed to carry additional payload. Also, it might add pressure on india to up the specifications of its planned 126 fighters plan. Well, it can go either way.

"all this makes the rafale a great plane giving us great returns for our 3 billion dollar investment"
No doubt it is a great plane but we might just not be able to procure it at the moment (financial reasons including cost of setting up the infrastructure, maintenance, training etc plus it needs to mature)


"finally a deal should be done within our current regime, or else we don't know how the next regime will react to the military asking for money for what we really need to counter the growing indian threat, because who better then the military to know exactly what the military needs    "
Well, Musharraf is here to stay. Atleast for the forseeable future

[JF17Thunder]

I would like you guys to go thrugh the following article which basically reports enhancements in block 52+ over previous versions. (it also shows a nice 3D model of F-16, which is not bad at all). May be this'll change your perception.

Code One Magazine

[Saqr]

JF17Thunder

The thing is, the Block-52+ and Block-60 use the same airframe, the price of a Block-52+ is around 40mn USD, add the 30mn USD radar, you pay 70mn USD for a plane.  On the other hand, you can get the Blockj-60, which has more advanced avionics than the retrofited Block-52+, for 60mn USD.  Then again, you could purchase the Block-52 for like 30-35mn USD a piece, very cheaply, and still boost your forces, and have a lot of money left over.

As for Rafale, well yeah its expensive, even the multirole version is quite expensive, but over the long-term, it'll be an extremely valuable aircraft.

[KudosBot]

Pakistan negotiating modalities for F-16s purchase from US
Islamabad, May 18, IRNA

Pakistan-US
Pakistan is discussing modalities and number of F-16 fighter jets to be purchased from the United States, a military official told IRNA.

Air Commodore Sarfraz Ahmed Khan confirmed on Wednesday that presently, "the modalities of delivery and the number of planes to be purchased is being discussed with US authorities".

Sarfraz, Director of Public Relations Office of Pakistan Air Force, said that nothing had been finalised about the exact number of jets to be acquired.

A local newspaper reported on Wednesday that Pakistan had increased its demand for F-16s to at least 55 and plans to decide on configuration within next few weeks.

"The government-to-government meetings held in Pakistan recently resulted in a request for 55 jets most sophisticated version of the new Lockheed Martine F-16 plus 20 option," according to the daily Jang.

In March, the US agreed to supply 25 F-16s to Pakistan for which Pakistan had already paid in 1980s. Each plane is reportedly worth US dollar 25 million.

A defence analyst, requesting anonymity told IRNA that by agreeing to provide 25 jets to Pakistan, the US government saved the manufacturing firm from closure of its F-16 production line and some 200 engineers and workers from losing their job.

After September 11 events in the US, defence cooperation between Pakistan and US has increased.

Last year, the US government okayed a five-year dollar 3 billion assistance package for Pakistan, half of which would be for military purchases.

TSH/1430/1416

http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0...81026160444.htm

[KudosBot]

Pakistan negotiating modalities for F-16s purchase from US
Islamabad, May 18, IRNA

Pakistan-US
Pakistan is discussing modalities and number of F-16 fighter jets to be purchased from the United States, a military official told IRNA.

Air Commodore Sarfraz Ahmed Khan confirmed on Wednesday that presently, "the modalities of delivery and the number of planes to be purchased is being discussed with US authorities".

Sarfraz, Director of Public Relations Office of Pakistan Air Force, said that nothing had been finalised about the exact number of jets to be acquired.

A local newspaper reported on Wednesday that Pakistan had increased its demand for F-16s to at least 55 and plans to decide on configuration within next few weeks.

"The government-to-government meetings held in Pakistan recently resulted in a request for 55 jets most sophisticated version of the new Lockheed Martine F-16 plus 20 option," according to the daily Jang.

In March, the US agreed to supply 25 F-16s to Pakistan for which Pakistan had already paid in 1980s. Each plane is reportedly worth US dollar 25 million.

A defence analyst, requesting anonymity told IRNA that by agreeing to provide 25 jets to Pakistan, the US government saved the manufacturing firm from closure of its F-16 production line and some 200 engineers and workers from losing their job.

After September 11 events in the US, defence cooperation between Pakistan and US has increased.

Last year, the US government okayed a five-year dollar 3 billion assistance package for Pakistan, half of which would be for military purchases.

TSH/1430/1416

http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0...81026160444.htm

[KudosBot]

Pakistan’s 71 F-16s likely to be outmatched by India’s 126

By Khalid Hasan

WASHINGTON: Pakistan is expected to order 18 to 71 F-16 Falcon combat aircraft from the United States, as compared with 126 F-16s - or potentially F/A-18E/F Super Hornets -that could be offered for sale to India, according to Congressional Research Service (CRS).

In a report released on Thursday, CRS said, “Some believe that this sale is being considered, in part, to reward the Pakistani government for the role it has played in support of US-led anti-terrorism efforts … If completed, such sales would have implications for political-military relations among the United States, Pakistan, and India; for combat aircraft proliferation; and for the US defence industrial base.”

CRS said it is currently unclear what long-term effects a potential sale of combat aircraft to South Asia, might have on US political relations with Pakistan and India, or the political relationship between them. Justifications for the decision to allow resumed sales to Pakistan include a US interest that Pakistan “feel secure” and a perception that a substantive US defence relationship with both Pakistan and India will stabilise “the balance” between them. Some believe the decision is a reward to Musharraf and the Pakistani military for their post-9/11 cooperation with US-led counter terrorism efforts, and see renewed exports as potentially increasing US leverage in Islamabad while eroding anti-American sentiments there. Such leverage could include increased Pakistani cooperation in the areas of counter-terrorism and non-proliferation. Some see the decision to allow resumed F-16 sales to Pakistan as disruptive of regional stability and efforts to resolve disputes there.

The report said, “Critics also contend that renewed F-16 sales may strengthen non-democratic forces in Islamabad. Though the Bush Administration has made spreading democracy a cornerstone of its foreign policy, Pakistan continues to be governed by a General who came to power through a military coup, and the State Department has noted that Pakistan’s democratic institutions remain weak. Moreover, some opponents of the sale argue that the United States should not provide sophisticated weapons to a country that has been a source of significant nuclear weapons proliferation. Pending legislation reflecting this concern in the 109th Congress includes H.R. 1553 and S. 12 (Sec. 232), which prohibit aid or military equipment to Pakistan unless the President certifies that Pakistan is cooperating with US nuclear non-proliferation efforts.”

CRS pointed out that Pakistan-US relations are rooted in the Cold War and South Asia regional politics of the 1950s. Differing expectations of the regional security relationship have long bedevilled bilateral ties. The United States viewed Pakistan as a valuable ally in its efforts to contain the Soviet Union, while Pakistan saw the United States as a powerful guarantor of its security vis-à-vis India. In the mid-1970s, strains arose over Pakistan’s efforts to respond to India’s 1974 underground nuclear test by seeking its own nuclear weapons capability. US aid was suspended in 1979. However, only months later, Pakistan again took the role of frontline ally, this time in the US-supported effort

CRS recalled, “Despite the renewal of US aid and close security ties, many in Congress remained troubled by Pakistan’s nuclear weapons program ... With the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan, Pakistan’s nuclear activities again came under intensive US scrutiny and, in 1990, President George H.W. Bush again suspended aid to Pakistan. One result of this aid cut-off was the non-delivery of 28 F-16 fighter aircraft purchased by Pakistan in 1989 (in 1998, the United States agreed to compensate Pakistan with a cash payment and goods, including surplus wheat). It was not until late-2001, when the United States again looked to Pakistan as a frontline ally, that major US aid again flowed to Pakistan.”

Describing the much-sought F-16, the report said, “The F-16 Falcon is a single engine multi-role aircraft manufactured by Lockheed Martin Corp. Its relatively low cost and high versatility make the F-16 one of the most exported fighter aircraft in the world. The F-16 was first fielded in 1979 and has been upgraded significantly. The capabilities of the F-16 vary greatly depending on the upgrade or modification fielded. The most modern F-16 flown by the United States is the Block 50/52. The United Arab Emirates flies a more advanced Block 60 variant (improved radar, defences, range). The F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is a dual engine, multi-role aircraft manufactured by the Boeing Company. It is the most modern US combat aircraft currently in full rate production. The Super Hornet reached initial operational capability in 2001. The differences between the E/F and earlier F/A-18 variants (A/B, C/D) are so great, that many consider it to be a new aircraft rather than an upgrade of an existing model. The Super Hornet has been approved for export, but no sales have yet been made. The F/A- 18C/D models, which are no longer in production, have been exported to eight countries.”

India, the report pointed out, enjoys a quantitative and qualitative advantage over Pakistan’s air force. It has 21 more fighter squadrons than Pakistan and a larger number of modern aircraft. India operates an aircraft carrier with short-take off and vertical landing fighters. Unlike Pakistan, India supports its combat aircraft with aerial refuelling, electronic countermeasures, and modern airborne warning and control aircraft. The sale of F-16s to Pakistan would increase its number of modern combat aircraft but would not bring it close to parity with India. If India were to add F-16s or F/A-18s to its inventory, the disparity in aviation capabilities between the two countries would grow even more. Some express concern that Pakistan could use its new F-16s to deliver nuclear weapons. The overall potential impact on nuclear deterrence and stability in South Asia of additional Pakistani F-16s, however, appears unclear. First, because the 32 F-16s that Pakistan already fields are believed to be nuclear capable, additional F-16s don’t appear to introduce new capabilities but may expand existing ones.

Second, Pakistan also fields nuclear-capable ballistic missiles. Some believe that ballistic missiles add instability to the security equation because they are high priority targets, and consequently the pressure to use them early in a conflict can be great.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?p...21-5-2005_pg1_6

[ISI2003]

most sophisticated version of the new Lockheed Martine F-16

seems like some one is trying to hood wink the less knowledgable pakistani gov officials

under the deal it would probably be say "of the c/d models"

An AESA equipped block 52+ should be able to take on MKI.

if this is possible this should be studied

[Saqr]

Pakistan’s 71 F-16s likely to be outmatched by India’s 126

LMAO!  What are our journalists high on these days?

[tallyho]

wow so much thinking done here                

   TRUE. ALSO PAKISTAN WAS AMONG THE FIRST COUTRIES TO DRAW BLOOD WITH THIS A/C----FACED THE THEN SUPER POWER, & PROVED ITS WORTH. IN FACT PAKISTAN IS THE ONLY COUTRY WHICH GAVE SO MUCH BOOST TO THE AMERICAN A/C. REMEMBER GOOD OLD F-86 WHICH OUTPERFORMED THE HUNTER & EVEN MACH-2 MIG-21 WITH PAKISTANIS IN THE COCKPIT. OR THE F-104 WHICH ACHIEVED THE FIRST EVER NIGHT KILL USING AIRBORNE RADAR. AMEICAN MANUFACTURERS SHOUL BE GRATEFUL TO PAKISTAN.

[ThE_UnReAcHaBLe]

Pakistan seeks as many as 75 new F-16 warplanes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Pakistan has sought prices for buying as many as 75 new F-16 C/D Falcon fighter aircraft since the Bush administration announced it would resume sales, the head of the Pentagon agency handling the matter said Wednesday.

Pakistan also has asked about buying 11 used F-16s, said Air Force Lt. Gen. Jeffrey Kohler, head of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which runs U.S. government-to-government arms sales.

Many experts had expected Pakistan to seek only about two dozen F-16s, said Richard Aboulafia of Teal Group, a Virginia-based aerospace consultancy.

The numbers cited by Kohler show it wants to make the F-16 a mainstay of its combat aircraft fleet, he said, adding this was "very ambitious in terms of regional strategy and very costly."

The single-engine, multi-role F-16 is built by Maryland-based Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT.N). The new purchases would flesh out a fleet of about 32 F-16s acquired before Congress cut off sales in 1990 over Pakistan's nuclear program.

Kohler, in an interview with Reuters, said Pakistan had requested F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft, the most modern flown by the United States and the current production standard, similar to exports to Poland, Greece, Chile, Oman and Israel.

Only the United Arab Emirates flies a more advanced variant, Block 60, with improved radar, defenses and range.

Asked about any Pakistani interest in the Block 60 model, Kohler said: "They did not ask for it and I don't think they could afford it." Kohler held arms-sale talks with defense ministry officials in Pakistan and India last month.

"I think when we go back and talk to them about the cost of the new systems my guess is that they will downsize slightly the (request for) new and they may increase slightly the used," he said.

The Bush Administration announced on Mar. 25 that it would resume sales of F-16s to Pakistan after a 16-year break. The about-face was widely seen as a reward for Pakistan's support of the U.S.-led global war on terrorism.

At the same time, the administration said it would let Boeing Co. (BA.N) and Lockheed compete for a potential $9 billion market in India for as many as 126 combat aircraft.

Lockheed is pitching India the same F-16 Block 50/52 and Boeing is offering its dual-engine F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the most modern combat U.S. aircraft currently in full-rate production.

The F-16 C/D Block 50/52 sells for $40 million to $45 million each, depending on options. Boeing's Super Hornet is expected to cost $50 million to $55 million, based on the U.S. Navy's next production batch, Kohler said.

He said India was seeking to produce domestically the majority of the aircraft it eventually buys. It also apparently had invited bids from Sweden, France and Russia, Kohler said.

For Pakistan, U.S. government officials were still weighing the weapons systems, targeting pods, radars and electronic warfare equipment that would be offered as part of a package.

A deal could perhaps be notified to Congress toward the end of the summer, the first step in a process that could lead to deliveries three years after an agreement is signed, he said.



05/25/05 20:57 ET

[rafael_2k5]

The other 4th gen aircraft is none other than M2k9 (checked from my sources at PAF)revised to PAFs specifications, as much as iwouldve like Rafale but PAF seems to have rejected it n presently planning upon M2k9, the reasons seem to be pretty ominous PAF is only goin to go 4 tried n tested technologies plus their backgound with UAE in customizing their aircrafts has probably been the main factor , though the ultimate product may still have minor variations n French may give it a different block name!!!!! if true this would mean no J-10 in the near future , plus ive also heard that PAFs block 52s would not have CFTs n maybe equipped with an AESA radar, the pattern is pretty clear F-16s to be used purely 4 air to air with limited strike capability whereas the M2k9 would form the back bone of strikers..plus PAf is also interested in JXX as n when it enters into serial productuion but that is a thing 4 the future......

[KudosBot]

Pakistan seeks as many as 75 new F-16 warplanes

By Jim Wolf

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Pakistan has asked about buying as many as 75 new F-16C/D Falcon fighter aircraft since the Bush administration announced it would resume sales, the head of the Pentagon agency handling the matter said on Wednesday.

Pakistan also has asked about buying 11 used F-16s, said Air Force Lt. Gen. Jeffrey Kohler, head of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which runs U.S. government-to-government arms sales.

Many experts had expected Pakistan to seek only about two dozen F-16s, said Richard Aboulafia of Teal Group, a Virginia-based aerospace consultancy.

The numbers cited by Kohler show Pakistan wants to make the F-16 a mainstay of its combat aircraft fleet, he said, terming this "very ambitious in terms of regional strategy and very costly."

The single-engine, multi-role F-16 is built by Bethesda, Maryland-based Lockheed Martin Corp. The new purchases would flesh out a fleet of about 32 F-16s acquired before Congress cut off sales in 1990 over Pakistan's nuclear program.

The potential Pakistan orders could keep open the F-16 production line, which is scheduled to close in 2008. The line employs about 5,000 people in Fort Worth, Texas. A Lockheed spokesman, Joe Stout, declined to comment on the size of Pakistan's possible order.

DOWNSIZING A POSSIBILITY

Kohler, in an interview with Reuters, said Pakistan had requested prices for F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft, the most modern F-16s flown by the United States and the current production standard. Similar aircraft have been exported to Poland, Greece, Chile, Oman and Israel.

Only the United Arab Emirates flies a more advanced variant, Block 60, with improved radar, defenses and range.

Asked about any Pakistani interest in the Block 60 model, Kohler said: "They did not ask for it and I don't think they could afford it."

Kohler held arms-sale talks with defense ministry officials in Pakistan and India last month.    Continued ...

© Reuters 2005. All Rights Reserved.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle....STAN-USA-DC.XML

[sohailbarki]

[SIZE=14]

bvr

asd

[sohailbarki]

man do not worry of BVR becoz JF-17 has the capability of BVRs
matter is just v get F-16s from USA and they so not bethray us

[DarkAngel]

DAWN

Pakistan seeks 75 new F-16 warplanes WASHINGTON, May 26 (Reuters) - Pakistan has asked about buying 75 new F-16C/D Falcon fighter aircraft since the Bush administration announced it would resume sales, the head of the Pentagon agency handling the matter said on Wednesday. Pakistan also has asked about buying 11 used F-16s, said Air Force Lt. Gen. Jeffrey Kohler, head of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which runs U.S. government-to-government arms sales. (Posted @ 10:45 PST

[DarkAngel]

Khaleej Times Online >> News >> SUBCONTINENT
Pakistan seeks as many as 75 new F-16 warplanes
(Reuters)

26 May 2005



WASHINGTON - Pakistan has asked about buying as many as 75 new F-16C/D Falcon fighter aircraft since the Bush administration announced it would resume sales, the head of the Pentagon agency handling the matter said on Wednesday.


Pakistan also has asked about buying 11 used F-16s, said Air Force Lt. Gen. Jeffrey Kohler, head of the Defence Security Cooperation Agency, which runs US government-to-government arms sales.

Many experts had expected Pakistan to seek only about two-dozen F-16s, said Richard Aboulafia of Teal Group, a Virginia-based aerospace consultancy.

The numbers cited by Kohler show Pakistan wants to make the F-16 a mainstay of its combat aircraft fleet, he said, terming this “very ambitious in terms of regional strategy and very costly.”

The single-engine, multi-role F-16 is built by Bethesda, Maryland-based Lockheed Martin Corp. The new purchases would flesh out a fleet of about 32 F-16s acquired before Congress cut off sales in 1990 over Pakistan’s nuclear program.

The potential Pakistan orders could keep open the F-16 production line, which is scheduled to close in 2008. The line employs about 5,000 people in Fort Worth, Texas. A Lockheed spokesman, Joe Stout, declined to comment on the size of Pakistan’s possible order.

Downsizing a possibility

Kohler, in an interview with Reuters, said Pakistan had requested prices for F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft, the most modern F-16s flown by the United States and the current production standard. Similar aircraft have been exported to Poland, Greece, Chile, Oman and Israel.

Only the United Arab Emirates flies a more advanced variant, Block 60, with improved radar, defences and range.

Asked about any Pakistani interest in the Block 60 model, Kohler said: “They did not ask for it and I don’t think they could afford it.”

Kohler held arms-sale talks with defence ministry officials in Pakistan and India last month.

“I think when we go back and talk to them about the cost of the new systems my guess is that they will downsize slightly the (request for) new and they may increase slightly the used,” he said.

The Bush Administration announced on March 25 that it would resume sales of F-16s to Pakistan after a nearly 16-year break. The about-face was widely seen as a reward for Pakistan’s support in the US-led global war on terrorism.

At the same time, the administration said it would let Boeing Co. and Lockheed compete for a potential $9 billion market in India for as many as 126 combat aircraft.

Lockheed is pitching India the same F-16 Block 50/52 and Boeing is offering its dual-engine F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the most modern combat US aircraft currently in full-rate production.

The F-16C/D Block 50/52 sells for $40 million to $45 million each, depending on options. Boeing’s Super Hornet is expected to go for $50 million to $55 million, based on the price of the US Navy’s next production batch, Kohler said.

India has not yet asked about acquiring state-of-the-art F-16 Block 60 aircraft, he said.

He said India was seeking to co-produce or co-assemble domestically the majority of the aircraft it eventually buys. It also apparently had invited bids from Sweden, France and Russia, Kohler said.

For Pakistan, US government officials were still weighing the weapons systems, targeting pods, radars and electronic warfare equipment that would be offered as part of a package.

A deal could perhaps be notified to Congress toward the end of the summer, the first step in a process that could lead to deliveries three years after an agreement is signed, Kohler said.  

[airforcefan]

For Pakistan, US government officials were still weighing the weapons systems, targeting pods, radars and electronic warfare equipment that would be offered as part of a package.

I am very eager to see what is the outcome of this process. From elsewhere we know that US is selling obsolete AIM-9M 1/2 sidewinder missile to pakistan.

[ISI2003]

I am very eager to see what is the outcome of this process. From elsewhere we know that US is selling obsolete AIM-9M 1/2 sidewinder missile to pakistan.

at the moment, i think the aim-9m deal is seperate and just for the mordern requirement, althugh we should have gotten the most modern aim-9m-9 because the aim-9x is not aviable yet

[Saqr]

I am very eager to see what is the outcome of this process. From elsewhere we know that US is selling obsolete AIM-9M 1/2 sidewinder missile to pakistan.

The AIM-9M deal is an immediate deal for the PAF's current F-16s.

[airforcefan]

DF and ISI,

whether the deal is for current F-16s or future ones, that still doesn't changes the fact that those missiles are obsolete.

Back in September 2002, hungary got AIM-9M 8/9 sidewinder.


Turkey got AIM-9X in October 2004 which means this sidewinder has been available for foreign sale for more than 9 months.

Pakistan recently asked for 40 air launched Harpoon missiles. Now the only F-16 to be compatible with Harpoon air launched missile is F-16 block 50 and upper versions. It is clear that pakistan can ask for missiles which can be deployed in its future F-16s.  

It could be that US might have refused advance sidewinder to pakistan and that is why they have to be happy with 300 obsolete sidewinders at a cost of 46 Million USD. In fact in my opinion it is clear waste of money and it doesn't matters whether you used that amount from the US govt. funding or your own pocket.

A recent reuters news reoport indicated that US govt. is tsill weighing what kind of weapon system etc...... to sell to pakistan which means US may be reconsidering pakistani request for advance versions of AAM and AGMs. That is why i said i am most eager to see the outcome of that process. But one thing is for sure $46 million have been wasted.

[Saqr]

The AIM-9Ms, Pakistan's current F-16s are compatable with it, newer AIM-9 versions, we should just wait and see.

[ISI2003]

DF and ISI,

whether the deal is for current F-16s or future ones, that still doesn't changes the fact that those missiles are obsolete.

Back in September 2002, hungary got AIM-9M 8/9 sidewinder.
Turkey got AIM-9X in October 2004 which means this sidewinder has been available for foreign sale for more than 9 months.

Pakistan recently asked for 40 air launched Harpoon missiles. Now the only F-16 to be compatible with Harpoon air launched missile is F-16 block 50 and upper versions. It is clear that pakistan can ask for missiles which can be deployed in its future F-16s. 

It could be that US might have refused advance sidewinder to pakistan and that is why they have to be happy with 300 obsolete sidewinders at a cost of 46 Million USD. In fact in my opinion it is clear waste of money and it doesn't matters whether you used that amount from the US govt. funding or your own pocket.

A recent reuters news reoport indicated that US govt. is tsill weighing what kind of weapon system etc...... to sell to pakistan which means US may be reconsidering pakistani request for advance versions of AAM and AGMs. That is why i said i am most eager to see the outcome of that process. But one thing is for sure $46 million have been wasted.

the 46 million might not have been, they could be used to prove the need for a  more better wvr aam, and out lack of any bvr aam is proof in itself that need a bvr aam

on the issue of getting the aim-9x, all in good time, we have to get it when the f-16's are officaily approved, and then thei objection have to be addressed carefully and over some time, until the point they agree to sell aim-9x's and aim-120c's

its a political matter, and probably will be divided among party lines, with the majority, being republicans agreeing to the presidents request, alothough some evangilical republicans might complain, a reply to their objections will be that we are supporting a friendly moderating government and therefore need to help that government stay in power

there are so many angles the these poltical fights can go

[airforcefan]

The AIM-9Ms, Pakistan's current F-16s are compatable with it, newer AIM-9 versions, we should just wait and see.

Dude AIM-9X is backward compatible

"The AIM-9X is also backward compatible to aircraft/launchers only capable of AIM-9M analog communication. For analog interfaces, the AIM-9X operates, and is identified, as an AIM-9M. This backward compatibility includes the analog seeker slave mode."

US does have legitimate worries that there advance weaponry can be made accessible to china through pakistan. US doesn't have happy memories of its unexploded tomahawk missile being scrutinized by pakistani engineers and a very likely possibilities of chinese getting their hands over it.

Still i am open to the fact that this new adminstration can sell off a surprise gift to you guys. So lets wait eagerly for the outcome of the process.

[KudosBot]

Pakistan wants 86 F-16s: Pentagon



By Anwar Iqbal


WASHINGTON, May 26: The Pentagon said on Thursday that Pakistan wants to buy as many as 86 F-16 fighter jets from the United States. Of these, 75 would be new F-16C/D Falcon fighter aircraft while 11 would be used F-16s, head of the US Defence Security Cooperation Agency, Lt Gen Jeffrey Kohler, told reporters in Washington. The agency is responsible for government-to-government arms sales.

“Yes, this figure is correct,” Pakistan’s ambassador in Washington, Jehangir Karamat, told Dawn. “Gen Kohler is the man who is dealing with this sale and he has just returned from Pakistan, so has the latest information,” he said.

Gen Kohler told reporters that Pakistan had requested prices for F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft, the most modern F-16s flown by the United States and the current production standard. Similar aircraft have been exported to Poland, Greece, Chile, Oman and Israel.

Only the United Arab Emirates flies a more advanced variant, Block 60, with improved radar, defences and range. Gen Kohler said Pakistan did not ask for Block 60 model because they were very expensive.

The size of Pakistan’s request has surprised defence experts in Washington who said they had expected Pakistan to seek only about two dozen F-16s. Experts appearing on morning television news shows said the numbers cited by Gen Kohler indicate that Pakistan wants to make the F-16 a mainstay of its combat aircraft fleet.

Gen Karamat, a former army chief, agreed with this observation. “F-16 is a high-tech and high-performance aircraft. After the deliveries, it will be the mainstay of our air force.”

But Gen Kohler said the Block 50/52 aircraft were also expensive and Islamabad may slightly downsize its request when informed of the cost of the new system. Instead, they may increase the request for the used ones, he added.

Gen Karamat did not disagree with this assumption. “This may happen but it depends on how much money is available in the budget for the F-16s.” The F-16C/D Block 50/52 sells for $40 million to $45 million each, depending on options.

Defending the decision to buy some used aircraft along with the new ones, Mr Karamat said such aircraft go through “complete up-gradation” before they are sold. “It is a thorough up-gradation, with new equipment. Only the airframe remains old and you get a very good deal.”

Another official at the Pakistan Embassy said Islamabad’s request will now be sent to the US Embassy in Islamabad for an assessment by their country team who will send it back to the Pentagon.

The Pentagon would send the request back to Pakistan with a price tag “and we will either accept it or amend it,” the official said. The proposal will then be sent to the US Congress for approval.

A deal could perhaps be notified to Congress toward the end of the summer, the first step in a process that could lead to deliveries three years after an agreement is signed. US defence experts are still weighing the weapons systems, targeting pods, radars and electronic warfare equipment that would be offered to Pakistan as part of a package.

On March 25, the Bush administration announced it would resume selling F-16s to Pakistan after a hiatus of almost 16 years.



http://www.dawn.com/2005/05/27/top5.htm

[airforcefan]

the 46 million might not have been, they could be used to prove the need for a  more better wvr aam, and out lack of any bvr aam is proof in itself that need a bvr aam

What do you mean ? sorry i don't understand your point.

on the issue of getting the aim-9x, all in good time, we have to get it when the f-16's are officaily approved, and then thei objection have to be addressed carefully and over some time, until the point they agree to sell aim-9x's and aim-120c's

its a political matter, and probably will be divided among party lines, with the majority, being republicans agreeing to the presidents request, alothough some evangilical republicans might complain, a reply to their objections will be that we are supporting a friendly moderating government and therefore need to help that government stay in power

there are so many angles the these poltical fights can go

Boss if you have read the reuters news report it clearly says:

For Pakistan, US government officials were still weighing the weapons systems, targeting pods, radars and electronic warfare equipment that would be offered as part of a package.

A deal could perhaps be notified to Congress toward the end of the summer, the first step in a process that could lead to deliveries three years after an agreement is signed, Kohler said.

The govt. is currently deliberating on what to sell as weapons etc.. along with
F-16. The whole deal is expected to be notified to congress by summer end which means August. All negotiations have to be done within these 2-3 months with the US govt. so that when you guys settle down on mutually agreeable configuration the whole thing can be notified to congress for approval. That is what we know from sources.

And from Official press releases we can see that Pakistani govt is interacting with them by requesting stuff.

[ISI2003]

What do you mean ? sorry i don't understand your point.
Boss if you have read the reuters news report it clearly says:
The govt. is currently deliberating on what to sell as weapons etc.. along with
F-16. The whole deal is expected to be notified to congress by summer end which means August. All negotiations have to be done within these 2-3 months with the US govt. so that when you guys settle down on mutually agreeable configuration the whole thing can be notified to congress for approval. That is what we know from sources.

And from Official press releases we can see that Pakistani govt is interacting with them by requesting stuff.

what i meant was they pakistani government will try to get the missiles with the new planes, at the moment they can't get them for various reasons

the configurations and accesories to the planes are being discussed, and obviously the pakistani governent will go for the aim-9x and latest aim-120's, the american team will show them the price, and the pakistani team will have to accept it (they are increasing their requesting show that they are willing to commit to this aquistion)

the pakistani team has estimated the cost and knows it will have to take the planes at the prices given, but will try to get the best deal, and try to get the most capable accesroies and missiles

basically its the blend of equipement on the planes and in the planes that are being discussed

like the radar, and EW suite, and other such equipement
remeber that they want the block 52+ with certain things from the block 60

and therefore prices can range from 45-80 million per plane (although i don't see it going over 55 million)

The size of Pakistan’s request has surprised defence experts in Washington who said they had expected Pakistan to seek only about two dozen F-16s. Experts appearing on morning television news shows said the numbers cited by Gen Kohler indicate that Pakistan wants to make the F-16 a mainstay of its combat aircraft fleet.

these "experts" are not really reading between the lines
most memebrs here said 71 new f-16s were the ball park for pakistani new f-16 acquistion

they probably just didn't give it any thought our are acting for the camera, trying to use this in some way in the future

[airforcefan]

what i meant was they pakistani government will try to get the missiles with the new planes, at the moment they can't get them for various reasons.

and what are those reasons ?

remeber that they want the block 52+ with certain things from the block 60

Well Kohler who is dealing with the sales said that

"Kohler, in an interview with Reuters, said Pakistan had requested prices for F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft, the most modern F-16s flown by the United States and the current production standard. Similar aircraft have been exported to Poland, Greece, Chile, Oman and Israel."

So out of your own imagination you have stretched it to mean 52+ which means standard 52 + somethings from Block 60.

Unless you don't give me a credible source i am bound to believe reuters news service.

[crazyinsane105]

Dude AIM-9X is backward compatible

"The AIM-9X is also backward compatible to aircraft/launchers only capable of AIM-9M analog communication. For analog interfaces, the AIM-9X operates, and is identified, as an AIM-9M. This backward compatibility includes the analog seeker slave mode."

US does have legitimate worries that there advance weaponry can be made accessible to china through pakistan. US doesn't have happy memories of its unexploded tomahawk missile being scrutinized by pakistani engineers and a very likely possibilities of chinese getting their hands over it.

Still i am open to the fact that this new adminstration can sell off a surprise gift to you guys. So lets wait eagerly for the outcome of the process.

To me, the Israelis are also a big threat in leaking out US tech secrets to China.

[airforcefan]

ISI,

Also in your opinion what kind of configuration will make your new F-16s overall electronically equivalent to Su-30MKI ?

[airforcefan]

To me, the Israelis are also a big threat in leaking out US tech secrets to China.

first of all Israel-America relation is way too different from pak-Us relations.

Sometimes just google three words Israel, China and USA. And see how many links tell you how USA arm twisted Israel into absolute cancellation of any military deal with China.

Infact see this and you will be surpirsed. China purchased harpy drone from Israel and they had sent it back to israel for upgrading. US was do desperate that it pressured Israel to confisticate those drones which actually belong to China.

http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/8311.html

Check this out for US-Israel-China roar over arms deal.
http://dailynews.muzi.com/cc/english/23577.shtml

Infact all this has led to expulsion of Israel from JSF project.

And now given the fact how much dependent pakistan is on china, any US tech can leak into china without US knowledge. That is why they are doing so much hard thinking about what to sell to pakistan. Otherwise block 50 and 52 have very well known standard configurations. And these have been sold to many foreign customers. It shouldn't take US so much time to decide on configuration for pakistan.

And it is very likely that US would have refused earlier requests made by pakistan for advance sidewinders and that is why pakistan had to settle for obsolete AIM-9M 1/2. Otherwise you only tell me why would pakistan waste $46 million on 300 obsolete missiles ? That is a substantial amount for a nation like pakistan and a significant number of missiles too.

[Lightning F57]

Airforcefan, I agree with you to the fact that these missiles are out dated especially compared to the AIM9M-8 onward varients.  But what baffles me is why did Egypt in 2003 and Taiwan in 2002 request the same 1/2 varients.  Surly there must be more to this, otherwise its truly a waste of money.

[airforcefan]

Airforcefan, I agree with you to the fact that these missiles are out dated especially compared to the AIM9M-8 onward varients.  But what baffles me is why did Egypt in 2003 and Taiwan in 2002 request the same 1/2 varients.  Surly there must be more to this, otherwise its truly a waste of money.

Dude that is because of the price difference between AIM-9M1/2, AIM-9M8/9 and AIM-9X sidewinder.

For AIM-9X see this
http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b...urkey_05-11.pdf
"Sale to Turkey of 225 AIM-9X SIDEWINDER Missiles, 5 AIM-9X Dummy Air Training Missiles, 20 AIM-9X Captive Air Training Missiles as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $96 million."


For AIM-9M1/2
http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/Egypt_03-15.pdf
"The Government of Egypt has requested a possible sale of 414 AIM-9M-1/2 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles, missile containers, support equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and support services and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $50 million."

and
http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b...istan_05-19.pdf
"Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of 300 AIM-9M-1/2 SIDEWINDER air-to-air missiles as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $46 million."

and
http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/twn_02-52.pdf
"Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Office in the United States has requested a possible sale of 182 AIM-9M-1/2 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles, missile containers, test sets and support equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and support services and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $36 million."


For AIM-9M8/9
http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/hungary_02-62.pdf
"The Government of the Republic of Hungary has requested a possible sale of 160 AIM-9M-8/9 Sidewinder missiles, training missiles, All-Up-Round containers, software integration, test and tool sets, support equipment, maintenance facilities, spare and repair parts, personnel training and equipment, publications, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $55 million."

The sheer cost can sometime force you to buy things which are either obsolete or nearly so. Although i agree it is waste of money but then its better to have  something in good numbers than have nothing at all. And the other option is have small number of AIM-9X sidewinders provided USA is willing to release it.

Pakistan choosed the former. If i was pakistan i would have choosen AIM-9X. Better to have something which has more probability of killing the enemy PER single launch. Small numbers of AIM-9X can have a psycho effect on enemy fighters. It is good to have some psychological pressure on enemy. But then pakistan must have tried this but US might have refused. And if mushy keep pestering them and maybe their will yield to his demands. That is why keep finger crossed and wait for summer end. Its 2-3 months before we know what will pakistan get as their F-16.

Edited by airforcefan, 29 May 2005 - 03:33 PM.

[airforcefan]

Just to confirm what i said about US worry over leaking of american tech to China,


http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/geted....o20050522a1.htm

America's response to the growth of China as a regional great power and potential hegemon is twofold: First, it is trying to limit the growth of China's technological capability by restricting access to American military technology through various embargoes. It is also pressuring other countries with the relevant technology not to make it available to China. This includes Israel, Pakistan and, most recently, the EU.

[Lightning F57]

I would say possibly a fiance issue, the 1/2 variants working out cheaper.  As for the AIM 9X, there is not much point with the current fleet of F-16s the PAF operate.  The AIM 9X capabilities will only be used effectivly with a Joint Helmet-Mounted Cueing System.  In order to get that the fleet needs upgrading.  The Block 50/52s however should have that capability.  

Having said that the AIM 9-8 Variant would of done nicely if the US was willing to supply AIM 9X at a later date.  We will have to wait and see how things shape.

Note:  The Turkish aquistion of AIM 9X is going hand in hand with the upgrading of their F-16 fleet so they can have full capability in using this missile.

[h177]

DF and ISI,

whether the deal is for current F-16s or future ones, that still doesn't changes the fact that those missiles are obsolete.

Back in September 2002, hungary got AIM-9M 8/9 sidewinder.
Turkey got AIM-9X in October 2004 which means this sidewinder has been available for foreign sale for more than 9 months.

Pakistan recently asked for 40 air launched Harpoon missiles. Now the only F-16 to be compatible with Harpoon air launched missile is F-16 block 50 and upper versions. It is clear that pakistan can ask for missiles which can be deployed in its future F-16s. 

It could be that US might have refused advance sidewinder to pakistan and that is why they have to be happy with 300 obsolete sidewinders at a cost of 46 Million USD. In fact in my opinion it is clear waste of money and it doesn't matters whether you used that amount from the US govt. funding or your own pocket.

A recent reuters news reoport indicated that US govt. is tsill weighing what kind of weapon system etc...... to sell to pakistan which means US may be reconsidering pakistani request for advance versions of AAM and AGMs. That is why i said i am most eager to see the outcome of that process. But one thing is for sure $46 million have been wasted.

are you sure that all harpoons are air launched and has nothing to do with P-3C?
how can u be sure that $46m is wasted?
and US can give any name to a missile or number to the missile. Taiwan F-16s ar block 20 but they are the most advanced in Asia. It does not matter whether they use APG-66 or APG-68. it is the internal ECCM capability. US may felt that AIM-9M1 version will be good against what India has so they approve it. and it will not be the only approval in next 5 yeaqrs. it is a continous process.
and PAK has asked for prices of 75 F-16s. it is not final deal yet. alot of back and forth will happens in mean time.