1821 replies to this topic

[haroons222]

Guys, these are just words, everything goes in Love and War. We'll give them all the assurances they want but when the time comes, we'll go our way. They need to make their red neck congressmen happy, thats all.

I read somewhere that a nawab of hyderabad(the richest man in early 20th century) went to a rolls royce dealership in london and wasnt treated nicely by the racist staff,who thought the brownie wont buy anything....he got pissed, and bought all the inventory in the showroom.Then he took the cars back to hyderabad and ordered them to be used as garbage trucks...Rolls royce issued an apology soon after!
Dont know how true the story is but theres a sabak there somewhere.

[Danish Moazzam]

The RR incident happened in KSA if i am not mistaken

[Munir]

Monday (tomorrow) 4 block52 will leave Forth Worth and fly towards Azores (Lagos) with final destination june 24th Pakistan. Full fueltanks (CFT, extra big wing and belly). No weapons. All flown by US pilots.

[visioninthedark]

Monday (tomorrow) 4 block52 will leave Forth Worth and fly towards Azores (Lagos) with final destination june 24th Pakistan. Full fueltanks (CFT, extra big wing and belly). No weapons. All flown by US pilots.

Pakistan Zindabaad  

[haroons222]

The RR incident happened in KSA if i am not mistaken

ah the drawing room gossip i heard was distorted...ill check into it:P...but still a good way to go.

[aliyusuf]

Monday (tomorrow) 4 block52 will leave Forth Worth and fly towards Azores (Lagos) with final destination june 24th Pakistan. Full fueltanks (CFT, extra big wing and belly). No weapons. All flown by US pilots.

Could you kindly elaborate on the part "... extra big wing and belly ..."?
Is it wrt the Block-15s in general for all Block-52s? Or the one's we are going to get will have this difference?

It was my understanding that apart from the CFT provision and the extended spine, there are no dimensional differences b/w the Block-52 & the Block-15.

Thanks.

[visioninthedark]

would much appreciate if any one could post pictures or links here as soon as those become available .....

[ali23]

Could you kindly elaborate on the part "... extra big wing and belly ..."?
Is it wrt the Block-15s in general for all Block-52s? Or the one's we are going to get will have this difference?

I don't know about the Block 15s but the newer ones will have 600 gallons tanks.

[Best of the Best]

I don't know about the Block 15s but the newer ones will have 600 gallons tanks.

F-16's A/B have 600 Gallon tanks these were provided to PAF, another thing that is for aliyusuf, what munir meant was that the F-16 block52+ would fly here with 2, 600 gallon tanks on the wing's, one belly fuel tank under the fuselage + internal fuel and fuel in the CTF's. hope that answers all your questions.

[aliyusuf]

F-16's A/B have 600 Gallon tanks these were provided to PAF, another thing that is for aliyusuf, what munir meant was that the F-16 block52+ would fly here with 2, 600 gallon tanks on the wing's, one belly fuel tank under the fuselage + internal fuel and fuel in the CTF's. hope that answers all your questions.

Yes it does, Thanks for your clarification.

[airomerix]

F-16's A/B have 600 Gallon tanks these were provided to PAF, another thing that is for aliyusuf, what munir meant was that the F-16 block52+ would fly here with 2, 600 gallon tanks on the wing's, one belly fuel tank under the fuselage + internal fuel and fuel in the CTF's. hope that answers all your questions.

BoB bro you are wrong here.

PAF has only 300 and 370 Gallon fuel tanks in its inventry. Apart from USAF, Israel and Turkey are only using 600Gl fuel tanks as far as i know.

But its good to know that PAF will be the 4th nation to use 600Gl tanks.

[airomerix]

I don't know about the Block 15s but the newer ones will have 600 gallons tanks.

Our Block 15s are equipped with 370Gl fuel tanks.

[ali23]

Our Block 15s are equipped with 370Gl fuel tanks.

I knew about that however, i did not whether we received 600 Gallon fuel tanks for A/Bs or not.

[Munir]

To be precise... Israel makes these bigger fueltanks and it is imported to the US by a US firm, then sold to Lockheed, which sells the plane to USAF which then delivers it to PAF. Only for the block52.

[oz281]

I read somewhere that a nawab of hyderabad(the richest man in early 20th century) went to a rolls royce dealership in london and wasnt treated nicely by the racist staff,who thought the brownie wont buy anything....he got pissed, and bought all the inventory in the showroom.Then he took the cars back to hyderabad and ordered them to be used as garbage trucks...Rolls royce issued an apology soon after!
Dont know how true the story is but theres a sabak there somewhere.

I would have called the GM
Introduced myself . asked him to call my bank manager to confirm my purchasing power .... then walk out and go to a Rival firm and buy his whole inventory and parade it in front of the showroom

[aliyusuf]

What was there back then that could have rivaled the Rolls in comfort, luxury and prestige?
Only car that has ever come close in that aspect has been the German Maybach. But the Maybach didn't become the symbol it is known for until the mid 30s.

Just wanted to share this bit of trivia.

[sobank]

Go nawab sahab. :)

Now we need quantity and quality. If we need to redirect sources from navy and army so be it. The bitter reality of the new age warfare is that bigger and better airforce decides the outcome of war.

And PA understands it very well. And therefore, to date, for almost a decade, we have been pushing up our air force and navy in respective order. If you guys have noticed it, comparatively speaking army didnt get jack sh|t for a decade when you compare the funding of PAF and PN (and which is good). The reason behind it is simple, Army has militia, rangers to support but once navy and af is defeated, there is no help or protection which eventually leads to annihilation of army.

So we need to get the af and navy updated. First step is getting front fighter. j10 and f16s are must for that. And we definitely need 500 at least with 250 at least f16 52 and j10 mix.

So i went to eat and came back and I have no idea now of how i wanted to close this post. :)

Edited by sobank, 21 June 2010 - 04:41 PM.

[visioninthedark]

So i went to eat and came back and I have no idea now of how i wanted to close this post. :)

as long as you had something tasty to eat ..... its all good

[airomerix]

To be precise... Israel makes these bigger fueltanks and it is imported to the US by a US firm, then sold to Lockheed, which sells the plane to USAF which then delivers it to PAF. Only for the block52.

Hmmm this is interesting. I personally think USAF donnot even needs 600Gl fuel tanks as they have a large fleet of tankers and multiple aircrafts which can be deployed at the same time. So the air loitering time is no problem for the USAF and that is exactly why USAF never opted for CFTs.

[Munir]

The tankers provides more felxibility (when and more fuel) and you do have lower drag, more other ordnance and lower RCS. Besides that you just want to avoid a2a or being hit by SAM so less wing troubles... And you know, the more weight you have the more maintenance you will need... During peacetime that is very important calculation factor. A few days to go my friends...

Israel and Pakistan have in common that they have no depth and long enemy border. You do not risk airtankers and you do not need them for anythng else then CAP. The US has an huge depth even when fighting on tghe other side of the globe (coalition and destroying anything before attacking).

[Simpleton]

What was there back then that could have rivaled the Rolls in comfort, luxury and prestige?
Only car that has ever come close in that aspect has been the German Maybach. But the Maybach didn't become the symbol it is known for until the mid 30s.

Just wanted to share this bit of trivia.

Ever heard of Duesenberg, Hispano-Suiza, Isotta Fraschini, to name a few?

[Simpleton]

So our vipers will be equipped with Israeli CFTs?  Can't we make our own, we did make tanks for the F-6 after all?

[ali23]

So our vipers will be equipped with Israeli CFTs?

Not the CFTs, the under wing tanks.

[Munir]

Let us not fill our mind with simple hypocracy. Most aviation products or electronics are being produced all over the world. F15 wings are onlyt produced in Israel yet we know some muslim countries (Saudia) fly these. Why not. Israel uses Suadi oil to fly the same planes. Surely it goes notdirectly but we know how it ends up in the final destination. Same goes for F14 parts that often went from Israel to suprise suprise... Iran. So if we use Israeli fueltanks (Yes, even CFT are born in Israel) then so be it. We probably use some parts that went from Israel to China.

[Best of the Best]

BoB bro you are wrong here.

PAF has only 300 and 370 Gallon fuel tanks in its inventry. Apart from USAF, Israel and Turkey are only using 600Gl fuel tanks as far as i know.

But its good to know that PAF will be the 4th nation to use 600Gl tanks.

airomerix I disagree,

The information i gave came from Usman.Shabbir on Pakdef.info and its valid if you disagree i am providing you a link, if your still not satisfied you can PM him and ask him for the information. PAF indeed does have 600 gal fuel tanks.

The Link

[AWA]

Congratulation!! Finally 3 F-16 block 52 have entered into Pakistani air space, all 3 of them are being flown by Pakistani pilots

[AWA]

3 F-16 (Block 52) have landed on Jacobabad Airbase.

[Aliph Ahmed]

Kill Switches on Google phones.

[S.R.A.H]

Guys, stop this BS about kill switch and tracking and what not! US has got a million satellites in the space, if they want to track these planes they have the ability. Secondly, PAF cannot disassemble the plane and start looking for  a tracking device. The kill switch scenario can only be proven if PAF tries to shoot one of its AIM-120C at an IAF plane and see if it does not work, other than that we can't do anything to check for it.

Lets assume somebody finds out that there is actually a kill switch embeded in these planes, guess whats gonna happen. NOBODY would ever buy an American fighter jet.

[aziqbal]

I dont think they have "kill switchs" but they certainly do have tracking devices because when Turkish Air Force F16 crashed they re-assembled the F16 for investigation purpose and they found installed tracking devices, they were inside the stealed sinper pods

So USA can track them but not switch them off thats just fanboy stuff

My cousin told me that the Americans are very very nervious that the Chinese might get to see these fighters, but the Americans have installed very advanced technology on these new F16s no one can open anything, they have installed digital seals on all the sensitive technologies and any time any these are breached this will invalidate the contract we have with the Ameircans

the Chinese are interested in 4 vital parts, the avionics and radar, the Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System (JHMCS) and the Sniper pod, im not gona say anymore

The only possible way for China to have a good look is 1 goes down in accident (like we did before in 1980s) and crashes and only then China can have greater look into the advanced systems

[haroons222]

Hi
i tried searching the airforce section but cudnt find the answer...
how many f-16s did we lose to the soviet migs in the soviet afghan war. and how many soviet migs did we shot down?were any of them mig 29s?

secondly, our F-16As got a lock on the Su-30s after the mumbai attack.Was it a first lock, or just the fact that we did have a lock on it...someone was telling me that bcoz of the bette(alleged) radar of the su-30mki, it must have had a first lock on the F-16 so our birds getting a lock after doesnt mean anything...

[aziqbal]

^^^^ we engaged the Soviets on many many occasions and intercepted them in the early part of 1980s, we used to use Mirage 3 and 5 and escort Soviets back to Afghan airspace, but after our delivery of the fighter falcon PAF started using very aggressive aeria tatics and finally shooting down the Soviets because they were so superb PAF had not experienced anything like it, thats when Pakistan fell in love with F16

we lost 1 F16 that was a own goal, however many people inside have said that it was not a accident and it was so we could recover the broken parts and allow Chinese to have a close look at the technology at the time, this was the only way, because Chinese really wanted to get hands on F16 technology and theres no way they could do it apart from just looking at it, that technology went into JF17, China then as a good will gesture developed a fighter for the needs of Pakistan Air Force

[PAF2010]

^^^^ we engaged the Soviets on many many occasions and intercepted them in the early part of 1980s, we used to use Mirage 3 and 5 and escort Soviets back to Afghan airspace, but after our delivery of the fighter falcon PAF started using very aggressive aeria tatics and finally shooting down the Soviets because they were so superb PAF had not experienced anything like it, thats when Pakistan fell in love with F16

we lost 1 F16 that was a own goal, however many people inside have said that it was not a accident and it was so we could recover the broken parts and allow Chinese to have a close look at the technology at the time, this was the only way, because Chinese really wanted to get hands on F16 technology and theres no way they could do it apart from just looking at it, that technology went into JF17, China then as a good will gesture developed a fighter for the needs of Pakistan Air Force

PAF fighters did'nt escort the Soviets back into Afghan airspace, it only engaged them with F-6s and Mirage fighters when they were deep in Pakistani airspace. Soviets and Afghans avoided aerial combat with PAF even in the pre F-16 era  !

PAF history states two incidents , one in which PAF F-6s got entangled with Mig-23s and were called back due to endurance issues, the other one was when 2 Mirages tried to shoot down enemy gunships both failing to release AAMs ! one of the Mirages was flown by Group Captain Rao Qamar Suleman ......he got a confirm lock, but his switches did not work during the procedure!

[Londo Molari]

Guys, stop this BS about kill switch and tracking and what not! US has got a million satellites in the space, if they want to track these planes they have the ability.

No they cant. They have lots of satellites but satellites do not automatically track things like radars. You need people to manually look at things and keep the satellite aimed at it. With satellites constantly looking at China, Iran, North Korea, Russia, as well as targeting in Iraq and Afghanistan, they simply cannot track 18 different F-16s in Pakistan at all times. On top of that, even if they could, we can easily confuse them by taking it inside a building and having 4 decoys leave from the building (like older model F-16s or big plastic F-16s which look the same from satellite).

Lets assume somebody finds out that there is actually a kill switch embeded in these planes, guess whats gonna happen. NOBODY would ever buy an American fighter jet.

They would because Americans have publicly told the world that that F-16s to Pakistan are not allowed to be used against India. They don't say such things when they sell to other countries.

The real problem is tracking devices. 50% of combat is making sure your enemy does not see where you are coming from. If the US shares tracking device data with India, those F-16s are useless.

[pingpong]

This aerial refueling system allows the F-16 to refuel from probe-and-drogue refueling systems. The system is called CARTS, for conformal air refuel tank system.    

[M_ZEE32]

As far as the "goodies" are concerned, we'll have

• 500 AIM-120C-5 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM);
• 750 Mark-84 2000 lb General Purpose bombs;
• 700 BLU-109 2000 lb Penetrator bombs;
• 500 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) tail kits;
• 1600 Enhanced Guided Bomb Unit 3 (EGBU) kits;
• and assorted bomb fuzes and support equipment.

These weapons will be available for delivery to Pakistan beginning in June 2010. Just as a side note, the 500 AIM 120C-5 is the largest single purchase of AMRAAMS by any foreign country.

Regards,
MB

The BLU bunker buster warhead is good, but why are we purchasing the Mk-84 ? they are made locally,
Whats the make up of JDAMs kits for Mk-84, 82 or 83 ?
Which previous Paveway systeme we had, paveway II ?

[safdar]

I assume you mean whats the difference is between Mark 84 of USA and PAK. That question is impossible to answer.

There  is a lot of information on the US MK84s however, on the Pakistani one nothing other then it weights 1000 kg which is heaver then the heaviest US made MK84.


All in all we have two bombs from USA BLU109 and MK84 with three kits to go with them to change the way they guide and detonate and the impact they create. I don’t think PAK mk84 has that many kits.

[M_ZEE32]

Lets me put it this way that JDAMS kit are coming in which configuration, are they for Mk84 size bomb, Mk 83 or Mk82 sized ?
And again which Paveway system GBUs we had II or III ?

[Umair T]

A Good read on the development of Paveway LGBs.
Paveway LGBs

Maybe I am wrong but a I think PAF is using the Paveway-II/III since we have got the F-16s.

[safdar]

Lets me put it this way that JDAMS kit are coking in which configuration, are they for Mk84 size bomb, Mk 83 or Mk82 sized ?
And again which Paveway system GBUs we had ?

Yes once you apply one of those retrofit kits on the MK84 the designation converts to a MK-82 MK-83 , OR BLU-109 BLU-110 etc. you don’t need separate MK82 MK83 bombs as such just a MK84.

Also that paveway is a guidance system not a bomb, and since PAF will be using sniper pods I believe that they will use the latest laser guidance which will be paveway 2 or 3 which ever is latest.

A Good read on the development of Paveway LGBs.
Paveway LGBs

Maybe I am wrong but a I think PAF is using the Paveway-II/III since we have got the F-16s.

Thanks for that umair. you are correct we have the Lockheed Martin's Sniper Advanced Targeting Pod.