96 replies to this topic

[FASAL XJ]

can the legendary mig prove a worthy opponent in terms of defence against fighters such as the F-15s,F-16s,Mig-29s,SU-27setc

[FASAL XJ]

why do i have a feeling that every 1 is gonna go for the 4th option

[Asta la vista, baby]

F-7s can still be used as cannon-fodders for PAF to delete IAF RVV-AEs.

[dibba]

Both planes can be of use, if they are uppgraded with modern avionics and armarment. Indian mig-21's are said to have got lock on on US f-15's in exersice. IAF is uppgrading 105 of them with the lates R-77 missiles and HMS. They pose a certain danger to Pakistani bombers.

The problem with them are the age and the rate of loss.

[raven's revolution]

israeli lancer upgrade of mig21 and F7pg/mg are capable enough to give a great fight as they r point defence fighters they lack range but on the other hand in WVR they can give tough time to even su27

  

[Rahul]

For IAF 125 MIG21 BISONS will be ok for another 5 to 10 years max.... simply because their enemy PAF consists of 300 mirage 3/5 & f7....... ie same era fighter without BVR or multi tracking radar like indian MIG21 BISON....

FOR PAF F7........ is a serious issue.....The poor PAF F7 pilot will have to engage over 160 combined SU30 MKI,, MIRAGE 2000,, MIG29........... Another 125 mig21 bison with BVR........ tHATS TODAY NOW.......

  Over next 10 years this threat will double with Phalcon Awacs by 2007 AND OVER 140 more su30 mki which are now being built in india. by 2014....

   Thats why the JF17 cannot be delayed beyonf 2007 and thats why PAF is desperate for F16 BLOCK C/D....

  

[lil Paki]

I am not sure about mig-21 and crap but Pakistani f-7 are in better shape of flying the Indian mig-21 I believe but we need as many operational aircrafts as possible b/c our foe has 2 times or more a/c then us..this is just my opinion

[leroy]

F-7s can still be used as cannon-fodders for PAF to delete IAF RVV-AEs.

The MIG-21 forms the numerical backbone of the world's only monkey-worshipping airforce, yes you guessed it, the Indian Air Force.

The MIG-21/F-7 even today can be a formidable plane, if used properly, with proper upgrades. It can hold its own against any fighter in the world. (please exclude IAF mig-21's from this ruling, because they seldom get to do anything else except crash crash crash).

The F-7 in today's theatre is considered in the same class as the F-5 A/E , . Then again it all comes down to the avionics and upgrades involved.

Lets pitch up some conventional characteristics of this plane against the Northrop F-5 E and do a comparison.

(Note: i am using the F-7PG for this comparison and the F-5 E Tiger II)

Powerplant performance :

F-5 E : 2 G.E.  J85-GE-21B (4000lb thrust) afterburning jets producing a total thrust of 8000-10,000 lb.

F-7PG : 1 WP-13 producing a total thrust of 14,660-15,000 lb



Maximum Speed :

F-5 E : Mach 1.7

F-7PG : Mach 2.1




Initial Climb Rate :

F-5 E : 10,455 m/min.

F-7PG : 11,700 m/min.





Service Ceiling (altitude above which a plane cannot climb faster than a given rate) :

F-5 E : 15,590 m.

F-7PG : 18,200 m.





Empty Weight :

F-5 E : 4349kg.

F-7PG : 5275kg.





Weapons payload :

F-5 E : 3175kg.

F-7PG : 2000kg



Ferry Range :

F-5 E : 3726km

F-7PG : 2200km



RADAR :

F-5 E : Standard radar on the F-5 E is the Emerson Electric AN/APQ-159 with a maximum range of 37km.

F-7PG : The PG carries the Galileo Avionica GRIFO-7 with a maximum range of 55km.


Numerous countries including Turkey, Denmark, Switzerland, Taiwan etc. still use the F-5 E as a light tactical fighter. Numerous countries including Pakistan, Romania, China, Zimbabwe (upto 40 nations) still use the F-7PG/Mig-21 for the same role. The conventional statistics are above. Compare , contrast and decide. You be the judge.  

[superultra_jetfighter]

The Mig-21 has been upgrated many times, so i think it still can kill ass, or get's killed in the ass, ether way the Mig-21 is a OK jetfighter

[leroy]

For IAF 125 MIG21 BISONS will be ok for another 5 to 10 years max.... simply because their enemy PAF consists of 300 mirage 3/5 & f7....... ie same era fighter without BVR or multi tracking radar like indian MIG21 BISON....

FOR PAF F7........ is a serious issue.....The poor PAF F7 pilot will have to engage over 160 combined SU30 MKI,, MIRAGE 2000,, MIG29........... Another 125 mig21 bison with BVR........ tHATS TODAY NOW.......

  Over next 10 years this threat will double with Phalcon Awacs by 2007 AND OVER 140 more su30 mki which are now being built in india. by 2014....

   Thats why the JF17 cannot be delayed beyonf 2007 and thats why PAF is desperate for F16 BLOCK C/D....

Well yes, the F-7/MIG-21 is still a good plane today for the light tactical fighter role.

But not IAF mig-21's, because they only crash whenever they fly. So all those r-77 and HMS flana dhamkana don't matter.  

[lil Paki]

umm I have a question is mig-21 older then f-7? and leroy could you please compare f-7 and mig-21 if you had the time please

[dibba]

The Tiger is an 60's era plane. It is not used for any serious role.

The Mig-21/F-7 is an outdated plane. It is flown by India, because PAF lacks a good Fighter appart from F-16 (which are reserved and will normally not be used for bombing missions). Mostly Indian Mig's will provide point defence. The moment PAF gets better AC in numbers, the IAF migs will have to be replaced fast.

PAF flyies F-7 because it does not have any other aircraft to purchase. The russians wont sell, neither will the US. IAF have Mirage and France is reluctant to sell. Beides PAF does not really have the funds to purchase Raphael or Eurofighter.

Most probably PAF may end up with used F-16's form some airforce. Which is a good plane, if it can be upgraded.

[superultra_jetfighter]

umm I have a question is mig-21 older then f-7? and leroy could you please compare f-7 and mig-21 if you had the time please

the Mig-21 is older, the F-7 was a copy of the Mig-21
(Mig-21 comes, china copy it, makes some changes and calls it the F-7)

[leroy]

The Tiger is an 60's era plane. It is not used for any serious role.

The Mig-21/F-7 is an outdated plane. It is flown by India, because PAF lacks a good Fighter appart from F-16 (which are reserved and will normally not be used for bombing missions). Mostly Indian Mig's will provide point defence. The moment PAF gets better AC in numbers, the IAF migs will have to be replaced fast.

PAF flyies F-7 because it does not have any other aircraft to purchase. The russians wont sell, neither will the US. IAF have Mirage and France is reluctant to sell. Beides PAF does not really have the funds to purchase Raphael or Eurofighter.

Most probably PAF may end up with used F-16's form some airforce. Which is a good plane, if it can be upgraded.

actually PAF operates F-7's because IAF's backbone consists of Mig-21's, Mig-23's and Mig-27's (which also crash a lot).

[pegasusflight]

A point to note...

IAF MiG-21 BIS have the single delta wing design, whereas PAF F-7PG's have the
double-cranked delta wing design...the F-7PG has much better maneuverability as
a result, close to F-16....

in fact, is is known that PLAAF pilots have commented that the J-7G (i.e., chinese
equivalent of F-7PG) can hold its own against their mighty SU-27 in close in
WVR dogfights...quite a feat..and its small size makes for a very small visual target..
these things with the Grifo radar are no pushover, and with good pilots could easily
give even MiG-29 and Mirage 2K a good fight in close quarters...

[pakibath]

Excuse me, Mig 21 is termed as flying coffin by the worlds 7th largest airforce!

[Indicom]

I am not sure about mig-21 and crap but Pakistani f-7 are in better shape of flying the Indian mig-21 I believe but we need as many operational aircrafts as possible b/c our foe has 2 times or more a/c then us..this is just my opinion

U r right when it comes to airframe life is concerned,as for the avionics,eccm,weapons load is concerned the Bison is far superior.

[pegasusflight]

with SD-10 to be mated onto F-7PG, Bison is hardly far superior....in visual range
it cannot out-turn a F-7PG at all...and both have HMS....PAF does not advertise all
its wares unlike IAF does...you know know what really is on the F-7PG in terms of
avionics and systems.....not to mention that IAF Bison airframes are about
as old as indra ghandi....

Air Forces monthly in Oct. 2003 had PAF F-7PG's on its cover...the article ranked it
as a fairly good modern fighter jet with decent cockpit layout.......and remember,
the scum of the IAF fly the Bison's....they will be good cannon fodder for PAF once in
visual range...the ANZA II sam readily downed the Mig's in Kargil..where the #()*$#
was their "vastly superior" ECCM then if they cannot take out a pak-modified stinger,
eh?, where?...

[leroy]

with SD-10 to be mated onto F-7PG, Bison is hardly far superior....in visual range
it cannot out-turn a F-7PG at all...and both have HMS....PAF does not advertise all
its wares unlike IAF does...you know know what really is on the F-7PG in terms of
avionics and systems.....not to mention that IAF Bison airframes are about
as old as indra ghandi....

Air Forces monthly in Oct. 2003 had PAF F-7PG's on its cover...the article ranked it
as a fairly good modern fighter jet with decent cockpit layout.......and remember,
the scum of the IAF fly the Bison's....they will be good cannon fodder for PAF once in
visual range...the ANZA II sam readily downed the Mig's in Kargil..where the #()*$#
was their "vastly superior" ECCM then if they cannot take out a pak-modified stinger,
eh?, where?...

Maybe that kargil IAF pilot was browsing www.pakistanidefenceforum.com in his cockpit while being hit by the ANZA, right bhindicom ?

[Top Gun 101]

Well the MiG-21/F-7 series do not compare at all to the Su-27/30, F-15/16, Mirage 2000, etc & any success they have would be purely circumstancial & hardly worthy of mention. They said the same thing when the F-4B/C/D/E 'Phantom' were inducted into USAF service but unlike the MiG-17F, MiG-19SF, & MiG-21F/PF/MF that the Vietnamese flew against the them, the Americans didn't take into account their own weaknesses & the F-15, F-16 & F/A-18 were born to counter these threats in a more apporpiate manner.

[aziqbal]

PAF F7s are great inteceptors man come on F7s are good aircraft

[deltared075]

The fighter flying range + radar range + BVR weapons

3 thing combine make Mig-21 or F7 look like junk!

Don't tell me the bullshit about point defence or dogfight!
Nothing it can do in modern warfare... Put them to sleep...

[pegasusflight]

it all depends what one wants to achieve...remember, mostly IAF will be deep inside
enemy territory..then, for PAF, point defense and WVR + ground control makes a
lot of sense....IAF is already having to carry more feul and missiles to come in and out
of Pak airspace....F-7's scrambled on short notice or from motorways are a major
hazard....i repeat, IAF is no USAF okay....Pak Army SAM's will likely decimate any
mig formations anyways....

[Asta la vista, baby]

it all depends what one wants to achieve...remember, mostly IAF will be deep inside
enemy territory..then, for PAF, point defense and WVR + ground control makes a
lot of sense....IAF is already having to carry more feul and missiles to come in and out
of Pak airspace....F-7's scrambled on short notice or from motorways are a major
hazard....i repeat, IAF is no USAF okay....Pak Army SAM's will likely decimate any
mig formations anyways....

What SAMs, ANZAs?         

[leroy]

What SAMs, ANZAs?        

We've already proved ANZA against the mighty IAF MIG-21 flying coffin.


So next time, i guess it will be some SA-2's . Expect the unexpected.

[Asta la vista, baby]

We've already proved ANZA against the mighty IAF MIG-21 flying coffin.
So next time, i guess it will be some SA-2's . Expect the unexpected.

What????!
SA-2s? Those are 1960s SAMs. You gotta be out of your mind. Those are useless against Su-30MKI's EW system and Phalcon's jamming system. You need Patriot 3s.

[blain2]

Well the MiG-21/F-7 series do not compare at all to the Su-27/30, F-15/16, Mirage 2000, etc & any success they have would be purely circumstancial & hardly worthy of mention. They said the same thing when the F-4B/C/D/E 'Phantom' were inducted into USAF service but unlike the MiG-17F, MiG-19SF, & MiG-21F/PF/MF that the Vietnamese flew against the them, the Americans didn't take into account their own weaknesses & the F-15, F-16 & F/A-18 were born to counter these threats in a more apporpiate manner.

Baseline technology is the issue, the newer the aircraft, the better the EW suite and weapons integration.  On its own (interms of the flight enevelope etc.) the F-7s can hang with all of the current fighter aircraft as a PD fighter.  With a decent WVRAAM and BVRAAM, it can do some damage.  Keep in mind that back in the 70's, PAF duked it out with USAF F-15s with their F-6 farmers and the F-6 actually smoked the F-15 in one engagement.  A lot depends on pilot training and situation awareness.  If the F-7s have a decent radar and can be employed well then they can cause major problems for IAF.

The Mig-21 airframe is the biggest drawback.  Pakistani aircraft are 7-10 years old (with the PGs being 3-4 years old), compared to that the Indian Bisons are at least 10-12 year old airframes (if not older)....as the age of the airframe increases, the airworthiness decreases and you are less prone to engage in taxing manuevers...so another plus for F-7s..avionics and HMS issues is open for discussion (PAF does have plans to mate HMS to the F-7s (if not already done)...so things may actually work out in PAF's favor in the long run on this type).

[lil Paki]

so the only SAM we got is some Sa-2?

[imran miah]

Keep in mind that back in the 70's, PAF duked it out with USAF F-15s with their F-6 farmers and the F-6 actually smoked the F-15 in one engagement.  


Are you sure about that!

and did Anza really down a MIG-21?

[pegasusflight]

i remember a sombre, ashamed, indian defense minister trying to mimic a NATO
press briefing (as was being done at the time when NATA was bombing Serbia)...
he conceded, rather reluctantly, the MiG-21 was brought down by a stinger missile,...
so in all likelihood, it was a pak-engineered ANZA II....then, as if to mimic
Gen. Wesley Clark, he said..."despite this, the air campaign will go on...."...a-hole
supreme...even CNN was flashing pics of Nachi-keta shitting his pants in a PAF jail...
morons....bring whatever you have...doesnt matter if it anza or sam or some
chinese sam....you will go down....

[PAF2010]

Actually PAF operates F-7MP/PGs because of the following reasons:

1.  It is an excellent back up to defend against aerial intruders. It can outgun Mig-21/ Mig-23 and Mig-27s of the InAF . It can take out the lumbering Jaguars and even a loaded Mirage-2000 will recieve a stiff fight from the light and agile F-7PGs armed with PL-9C and SD-10s!  A typical intercept package of 2 F-16A and 3 F-7s can destroy a strike package of 20 planes. The F-16s can go for the escort fighters leaving the F-7PGs to swallow the heavy Mig-27s and Jaguars.

2. PAF has a small budget and has to keep numbers to have some ratio of match up with the Indians and the F-7s ( 220+ )  provide that in-depth strength. Thus PAF can take the initial onslaught by the InAF and still hit back.

3. F-7 is ideal for countries like Pakistan where the distances between airbases is'nt too much. Mianwali, Shorkot , Sargodha, Chaklala, Lahore, Kamra are close to each other. In this way if an F-7 scrambles hot, its pilot need not worry too much about the short endurance as he can land at another closer airbase. This means that F-7s can fight longer and if fuel gets low it can land and recover.

For example , an F-7 scrambles from Shorkot and loses fuel after 30 minuts of hot air patrol and combat, it can land in Lahore or Sargodha. Similarly an F-7 flying from Kamra can land in Chaklala if the need arises.

4. above all F-7 provides an ideal platform for young PAF fighter pilots as first drivers

[Rahul]

REPLYING TO PAD2010

  Your intercept pacakge of F16/F7   Will be tracked from the minute they take off from their motorways  by INDIAN AWACS and SU30 MKI which scans a raduis of 200 miles..

  Using data linking The SU30 MKI mig29 & mirage 2000 will fire BVR missles from 50 miles plus..... Most of your inteceptor  pacakge won,t even know where they hit from....

  ITS CALLED BEYOND VISUAL COMBAT & FORCE MULTIPLYING....

  Something PAF does not use or employe

  Modern aur combat..

  PAF equipped to fight a indian air force in 1980...

  ie previous to SU30 MKI MIRAGE 2000 MIG29 IL78 REFULERS Awacs from 2006
  Era

[maverikky]

Excuse me, Mig 21 is termed as flying coffin by the worlds 7th largest airforce!

Gimme a break...Paki Air Farce  last as many Air craft as India did in  the last 4 years. Just cause u dont see them crashin does'nt make them flying all the time

[PAF2010]

REPLYING TO PAD2010

  Your intercept pacakge of F16/F7   Will be tracked from the minute they take off from their motorways  by INDIAN AWACS and SU30 MKI which scans a raduis of 200 miles..

  Using data linking The SU30 MKI mig29 & mirage 2000 will fire BVR missles from 50 miles plus..... Most of your inteceptor  pacakge won,t even know where they hit from....

  ITS CALLED BEYOND VISUAL COMBAT & FORCE MULTIPLYING....

  Something PAF does not use or employe

  Modern aur combat..

  PAF equipped to fight a indian air force in 1980...

  ie previous to SU30 MKI MIRAGE 2000 MIG29 IL78 REFULERS Awacs from 2006
  Era

I am afraid I have no choice other than believing in what u have said. PAF seriously requires a fully BVR equipped multi role fighter (atleast 3 squadrons) along with AWACS. I guess things would get  bit easier when JF-17 enters service.

[maverikky]

A point to note...

IAF MiG-21 BIS have the single delta wing design, whereas PAF F-7PG's have the
double-cranked delta wing design...the F-7PG has much better maneuverability as
a result, close to F-16....

in fact, is is known that PLAAF pilots have commented that the J-7G (i.e., chinese
equivalent of F-7PG) can hold its own against their mighty SU-27 in close in
WVR dogfights...quite a feat..and its small size makes for a very small visual target..
these things with the Grifo radar are no pushover, and with good pilots could easily
give even MiG-29 and Mirage 2K a good fight in close quarters...

F-7 is a derivative of Mig-21. whats make's u think that it has substantial added maneuverability against Mig-21. By the way The Mig-21 Bison Upgrade will give it an decent edge over F-7. If u guys say that F-7 can compete against the likes of F-16 and Su-27, then IAF will be more then happy to take part in the game of shooting Duck's. Coming to Grifo radar who said that it is superior to the one in the Bison. Coming to close quarters let me say that in any future indo pak wars there wont be any close quarters. so stop dreamin abt F-7's superiority over Mig 21.

[maverikky]

The Tiger is an 60's era plane. It is not used for any serious role.

The Mig-21/F-7 is an outdated plane. It is flown by India, because PAF lacks a good Fighter appart from F-16 (which are reserved and will normally not be used for bombing missions). Mostly Indian Mig's will provide point defence. The moment PAF gets better AC in numbers, the IAF migs will have to be replaced fast.

PAF flyies F-7 because it does not have any other aircraft to purchase. The russians wont sell, neither will the US. IAF have Mirage and France is reluctant to sell. Beides PAF does not really have the funds to purchase Raphael or Eurofighter.

Most probably PAF may end up with used F-16's form some airforce. Which is a good plane, if it can be upgraded.

I agree that Mig21 & F-7 are old  but they are no means out dated. It is absurd to say that India flies Mig21 cause Pak lacks modern fighters. India still flies them cause thay r still capable of doing some serious work. Remember in a war Mig 21 will not b facing the Paki F-16's , Mirages or the Chicoms SU's. They will b against  aircrafts of comparable class and in this class  Mig 21 Bisions are superior to F-7's and J-7's.

[maverikky]

Seriously speaking any aircraft without an BVR capability and advanced electronics would be an waste of resourses on the Airforces. even tought Migs and F-7 are old they still can be operated as potent platforms with the right kind of changes done to them. It does'nt matter which plane has shorter turning radius, we are not playing "Ringa Ringa Roses" here. If u play u defineately gonna "Fall Down". Indians have succedded in converting Mig-21 into Multi Role, BVR capable fighters. I am looking for sourses, but I read that they are also capable of all whether, Day Night Ops. No doubt F-7 is a Good plane but with out the complimenting Electronics and armament it just falls short of being a lethal fighter in modern times.

[pegasusflight]

ahah..face it..you "NATO-waanabe" air campaign was dashed the moment it crossed
over into PAK..the only reason fatso PM pulled the whole plug on the kargil thing was
he wanted to isolate mushy, who he thought had too much power by then..didnt work,
as the guy did a coup on him later on......more infighting than aything you guys could
muster pal.....same thing in '02, alll talk, buildup, and then backdown like a bunch of
40 year old pussies...

[rockingwarrior]

One thing is almost for certain, PAF wont attack. If we are talking of a war IAF will attack. So IAF will have to save itself from Sam’s (both Anza and SA-2’s) and Anza cannot be targeted from an aircraft because radars are not designed to track a man carrying a metal stuff. Then F-7 plays a vital role with support of Sam’s.

F-7 has low RCS as compared to big two engine planes.

What makes an aircraft superior? Basic things are radar, maneuverability, BVR & WVR missiles; Mig-21s can have it. I know ECCM etc but we are obviously not making F-7s 4.5 or 5 Gen planes we are talking of its survivability.

Aircrafts worthiness is measured with the role assigned to it. F-7 is for defense against other aircrafts for ground attack we have A-5, Mirage and F-16. so for engaging attacking aircraft with in your borders with Sam’s back up, F-7 is satisfactory. Obviously not the best but it can serve the purpose.

[Malikman]

REPLYING TO PAD2010

  Your intercept pacakge of F16/F7   Will be tracked from the minute they take off from their motorways  by INDIAN AWACS and SU30 MKI which scans a raduis of 200 miles..

  Using data linking The SU30 MKI mig29 & mirage 2000 will fire BVR missles from 50 miles plus..... Most of your inteceptor  pacakge won,t even know where they hit from....

  ITS CALLED BEYOND VISUAL COMBAT & FORCE MULTIPLYING....

  Something PAF does not use or employe

  Modern aur combat..

  PAF equipped to fight a indian air force in 1980...

  ie previous to SU30 MKI MIRAGE 2000 MIG29 IL78 REFULERS Awacs from 2006
  Era

Rahul, your continous ranting is just becoming BORING!

right now, IAF has NO phalcons therefore no force multipliers NOW.

by the time your awacs comes, so will PAF's and BVR.

sit back and observe.