49 replies to this topic

[amaccpc]

PLS EXPLAIN YOUR ANSWER?

[FASAL XJ]

no, i cant be asked waiting another 15years  for the prototype to fly

[platinum786]

Yes we should. Why, because they are the new trend in fighters, fighter planes are going stealth, we will need one eventually.

~Thing is what can we offer China? Money towards the project and some levels of help, nothing huge, however China can teach us a lot. Working on these sort of projects might mean in 15-20 years time our own people might be able to design and make planes for us, for every sector.

[PakShaheen]

No. At this time PAF's Prime concern is to develop a potent air defence by inducting basic 4th gen fighter (JF-17) and one high tech (4.5-4.9 Gen.) fighter.
Stealth technologies are still evolving and are very expensive in PAF's context;Pakistan should doing things step by step as they have done till now..

OverHauling French & Chines Fighters

Then

K-8 Joint Venture

Then

JF-17 Joint Venture

And Still to do Following

Induction of high tech fighters

Then

Modranization of SAM systems

Then

Export of JF-17 after searching markets to generate more funds

Then
.......
.......
.......
Then

Induction of 5th Gen. (Oh we are in 2030) :PakistanFlag:  :PakistanFlag:

[slickedup]

well i think Pakistan should join in coz it would be a good learning experience for pak. But the point is what Pakistan can offer to china. Not much.

[viper007]

simple hai bhai, they should. At any level possible, kyunki karoge nahin to seekhoge kaise. Just jump into the program, put a bit of money and u will learn a thing or two.

Faida hi hai, nuksaan to nahin hai  :smile: !!!

:ChinaFlag:

VIPER

[rafael_2k5]

The point is not wat can be offered or not , in retrospect wat r those so many countries doin while participating in the JSF project, its basicaly the financial contributions that keep the project running, had this not been the case JF-17 wouldve been dead quite a while away!!! in the end its technological know how accrued that matters ! plus the ability to subsequently tweak ur existing set ups like Israel does!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[viper007]

Israel is a perfect example that demonstrates capability but does not transform it into practice. It can make its own fighter, but it does not need one. It has become an upgrade factory. Cleverly, instead of making aircrafts and stuff, they chose to develop a good base for seeker, sensors and EW system development.

All this due to the know-how gained during several projects. But they still don't have their own fighter, how does it matter to them. They know what is important and what is not.

VIPER

[Best of the Best]

well i think Pakistan should jump in with China on a 5 th generation fighter jet secondly Pakistan can contibute money into the project for R&D and there is one more thing i must add is that we would have our own 5th generation fighter and we wont have to worry about anything  :smile:  :PakistanFlag:  :ChinaFlag:

[Ahsanjehangir]

FASAL XJ, on Sep 7 2004, 04:25 AM, said:

no, i cant be asked waiting another 15years  for the prototype to fly

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fasal,all the tech in place it will take much lesser than anyone will imagine,the Chinese will b coming out with something like that by 2010. :ChinaFlag:  :PakistanFlag:

[Pakfirst]

Oh Yes of course and explanation isn't really nessesary is it.

:ChinaFlag:  :PakistanFlag:

[FASAL XJ]

Quote

Fasal,all the tech in place it will take much lesser than anyone will imagine,the Chinese will b coming out with something like that by 2010.

For a developing nation such as Pakistan and china it will take a hell of a long time, PLAAF is already involved in its own modernisation plans, Pakistan should finance the J-12 project.

[Saqr]

If the Pakistan Air Force has recognised the threat posed by 180 Su-30MKIs and PAK-FAs by 2020, it MUST have addressed the stress to acquire something equal or superior to them.  On that note, knowing the PAF is almost as secret as the PLAAF, something MUST be under the table, the PAF can't be this ignorant.

[Londo Molari]

Yes Pakistan should... but I don't see why China would want that right now, considering out government and military bases are swarming with U.S. personnel. China would not risk information leaking to the U.S., so they would not let us become part of the program. Thats understandable.

[Saqr]

Londo Molari

For anything to happen, the PAF MUST have recognised the threat posed by PAK-FA, and the options available to counter it.  If the PAF did recognise it, it should have addressed the Gov about it, and the basics start there.

[Averroes]

they probably already involved in it  :smile:

[tank131]

I have advocated this for a long time.


Look PAF needs the JF-17 now...but in the future, the XXJ will definately be needed.  Look at at what the PAF is and what it used to be...the PAF has been reduced to a air defence system...it has no serious attack capabilities (except against low tech terrorists within Pakistan.  It has zero ability to power project and this is the real danger.  You want to know why no country messes with the US...its not because they will be defeated on US soil...it is because the US will come to their soil and beat their asses!  A great offense equals an excellent defense...and right now, the only offensive power Pakistan has is its missiles...it just not enough.  With the induction of stealth elements into Pak Military, Pakistan will gain a powerful air strike capability and an excellent arial defender/ attacker all roled into one.  This is not to say that conventional aircraft will be replaced...just look at the US...not all of the USAF F-15s will be retired. A potent conventional fleet will still be present...but in my estimation, by 2025 PAF will need up to 200 JF-17 and 40-60XXJ and roughly the same number (40-60) high 4th Gen. fighters.  It is going to be expensive...and will be difficult, but if PAF is to transform itself, is must get the hell away from upgrades of 1960s aircraft.  To guide PAF in the direction of the IDFAF is rediculous and stupid...yes Israel no longer makes its own aircraft...but the reason is that US will give IDFAF state of the art aircraft (at the expense of US taxpayers) and they dont need to make anything...quite frankly Israel would not be able to make anything of the quality the US does...proof is the fact that every Israeli product is actually developed by US engineers and scientists.  Also, because they are operating very modern aircraft, they have the luxury of continuous upgrades...PAF is operating rust buckets...further upgrades wont matter when the pilot looks at his feet and sees rust holes because the aircraft is dissintgrating due to old age.

PAF would not have to wait until 2030 to get XXJ if it enters the project now.  Sukhoi officials (at MAKS2003) stated that the XXJ will be ready ~6 years after the F/A-22 and that puts the XXJ ready (at least for testing) by ~2011-2012.  I would give at least 3-5 years for testing (it is after all a very new technology) and hence would be ready for production ~2018-2020.  PAF can provide alot of money between now and 2020...even in relatively small incriments...and it would be enough for PAF to start recieving the aircraft ~1-2 years after production begins...i think it is very doable IF PAF approaches China about the joint venture, and IF China agrees.

[bling-bling]

well why not. PAF should get involved in a stealth project(cause stealth planes will become a necessity for an air force to launch offensive strikes). and in the near future (in 5-7 years time) they will be testing a stealth plane, will have a know how of starting to manufacture it in Pakistan (hopefully). so in my openion if pak have the financial resources to get involved in this kind of a project(cause this kind of projects needs lot of money) then they should go for it. (just a thought)

[bling-bling]

viper007, on Sep 7 2004, 01:33 PM, said:

Israel is a perfect example that demonstrates capability but does not transform it into practice. It can make its own fighter, but it does not need one. It has become an upgrade factory. Cleverly, instead of making aircrafts and stuff, they chose to develop a good base for seeker, sensors and EW system development.

All this due to the know-how gained during several projects. But they still don't have their own fighter, how does it matter to them. They know what is important and what is not.

VIPER

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well i agree with you, but israel have the advantage of US, and the isrealis know that they r going to get top end plane from US. but whith Pakistan it is completely different. they have to beg for their planes which they had already paid for, and in the end what they get. Wheat.

[black eagle force]

bling-bling, on Sep 7 2004, 10:43 PM, said:

well i agree with you, but israel have the advantage of US, and the isrealis know that they r going to get top end plane from US. but whith Pakistan it is completely different. they have to beg for their planes which they had already paid for, and in the end what they get. Wheat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well that's not really the case when with China.

[Lonely.Puma]

I'm not quite sure that stealth bombers are the way to go for us. Missiles still serve the purpose well.

I'm curious though, if we could add a stealth element to our missiles like the under development cruise missile. This program should be cheaper than a fighter jet one, with equal results. Moreover, if we have one of our spy satellites (also under development) in space then our stealth missile should be highly accurate.

But what I do feel our focus should be on our ability to detect enemy stealth aircraft and successfully be able to get a lock on them.

Regards,

[deltared075]

Lonely.Puma, on Sep 8 2004, 01:11 AM, said:

I'm not quite sure that stealth bombers are the way to go for us. Missiles still serve the purpose well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the XXJ is a stealth fighter, not a bomber.
what you going to do if you run out of missiles?
If Pakistan have even one squadron of XXJ will give a very huge political pressure to India.

[PakShaheen]

To Diving Falcon
==========
Where is PAK-FA right now.PAF is not technically that mature nor is PLAAF nobody knows the acdtual staus of JXX.Pakistan may got them in future but getting involved in these sort of projects demands very high level of experties and huge funds and unfortunately PAF is lacking behind in both categoery that's why they are following a step-by-step paradigim.

India is not going to get 190+ MKIs and PAK-FA tomorrow but it will take almost two decades or more to complete.PAF should concentrate on development of sub-systems like

ECM/ECCM systems for next versions of THUNDER
Weapon Systems (Missile,bombs etc.)
Began reserch on Turbofan Engines
Development softwares for different automation systems

Then time will arise to insist China to join us in a 5th gen fighter but still the condition of good ecnomic condition is holding.

[rockingwarrior]

Yes PAF should involve in the program but like the program this involvement should also remain stealth other wise US would impose some new sort of sanctions on Pakistan or it will do anything else to stop it. Remember US would never want PAF to have stealth planes to attack its aircraft carriers or israel. This might not happen but US is coward and never want even to have a nightmare abt this

[tank131]

The Pakistani military has a historical problem...its the inability to multitask (whether it be funds or lack of political will...usually the later).  Pakistan has to worry about not only the present, but the future aswell.  The entire problem with PAF started because in the 80s Pakistan didnt have the foresight to see that the F-16 (or any other aircraft) could be a major problem if it could not maintain some level of operability without the suppliers.  It learned this when the Pressler ammendment took affect and has since developed a basic ability to maintain its own aircraft.  Further more, it has jumped head first into the JF-17 project...something which should have started in the early 90s...not mid-late 90s.  They started 6yrs to late...and now PAF is suffering because of it (no credible attack capability and a meager defence capability, lack of BVR or BVR doctrine, etc.)  PAF has to be able to multitask if it is going to survive the next decade, and if it is going to once again be a major player in the Asian arena (it used to be on of the top 2-3 airforces in Asia...now it bearly makes top 8).

There is no reason why PAF cannot accomplish improvements on the JF-17 while at the same time joining the XXJ project (if China allows it to join).  The simple solution (as it regards to personel) is to send the top echelon of JF-17 projects scientists to the XXJ project, while maintaining the solid base that is already there (to complete the project).  The top echelon will form a new base under them to help china develop the XXJ...remember, most of the research is going to be done by CHina...PAF officials are there to learn, spend $$$, and do some grunt work.  PAF will walk away from it with a better technical knowledge about not only stealth, but aerodynamics and aviation in general which can then be applied to future varients of the JF-17 aswell as all future projects within the Pakistani defence industry. PAF will also come away with this with a brand new top end fighter, with more cost effectivness than a western fighter (to which PAF would have no access to tech and systems), because the PAF will know the in's and out's of the aircraft and all its tech.

Monetarally, PAF has got to force the govt. to concentrate on it instead of the Army...this can be done in a number of ways...but petition the govt. to hear them...remember that a country without a strong Airforce (even with a very powerful army) is basically indefencable...it will get crushed.  Funds will have to be made for PAF if it is going to increase its defence capabilities.  My estimate (I believe the PAF made the same estimate) is that PAF will need at least $13-$18bln over then next decade to completly reform and restructure the fleet.

1)JF-17 needs to be inducted with weaponry...the cost will be ~$4bln for 200 airframes and weapons

2)New 4+ gen. AC needs to be procured (probably J-10)...cost ~$4-$5bln

3)XXJ fighter project (with ~40 airframes)... PAF should put atleast $2-$3bln into the project (over the next 7years) and i would estimate the price per unit is ~$50-$60million (for project memeber @ Chinese/Pakistani production cost) hence $2.5-3bln  (with weaponry)

4)AWACS (4-7 airframes) cost at least $2-$3bln

This is going to be extremely expensive...but it needs to be done.  Remember...this is over the next 10 years, so thats ~$1.3-$1.8bln per year...which is very expensive.  However, look at the end result...

1)PAF will have a brand new fleet which is very modern (even for 2012 era) and will be very self reliant (JF-17 will be mostly manufactured in Pakistan by then, XXJ can be manufactured partially in Pakistan if PAF joins project, and PAF could probably convince China to set up full overhaul and maintanence facilities...including spare part manufacturing in Pakistan).  

2)In addition to self reliance, it will have on of the most advanced fighters (XXJ) in the world...probably behind F-22 and maybe JSF.  

3)It will be among the first nations to induct 5th Gen fighters, so will be ahead of the pack in regards to development of stealth doctrine.  

4)PAF will gain some insight as to how to detect stealth fighters earlier than normal...though not at full range (via the testing done) so it can help strengthen defence of the nation.

5)PAF will gain major insight for the future of its own aeronautics industry (for avionics, airframe design, engine design, manufacturing, materials...etc).

I believe that the gains from spending the neccessary amount of $$$ far out way the actual cost which is relatively meager when looking at the span of time needed (ten year @ $1.3-1.5bln).  Now...i know that is 1/2 of the defence budget, but with a quickly improving economy, and quickly deteriorating defence, Pakistan needs to spend the money (and at the growth rate i believe that it can).

[Saqr]

Pakistan plans to spend around 12-15bn USD on modernizing its Air Force over a 10-15 year period, but the money will be payed over 15-20 year period at this rate.  However, this is my idea on how the PAF should modernize with the funds available;

1) Upgrade the 60 F-7PGs & 100 Mirage ROSE to carry BVR & PGB/PGMs. (2004)

2) Buy 18 used F-16A/Bs and MLU kits, make a fleet of 50 MLU F-16A/Bs, 600mn USD (2005)

3) Ink a deal for 40 Mirage 2000-5Mk2 for 2.4bn USD (delivered 2005-2009)

4) Ink a deal for 1.4bn USD for 7 Saab-2000 Erieye AEW&C (delivered 2006-2017)

5) Start production of 200 JF-17s, 4bn USD order (delivered 2007-2017)

I'm assuming that the PAF will buy the UAE's and Belgium's Mirages, to use as spare-parts, having bought a total of 300 Mirages since 1967, keeping around 100 in service until 2020.

[Lightning F57]

Im not sure how much Defence organisations can help in developing such a fighter from Pakistan with china.  The industrialised base is still very young and needs allot of work.  However sending a team of engineers, technicians, scientists to china to work, or oversee a development for such a fighter can be beneficial in terms of gaining new knowledge expertise which can be later absorbed in the Pak aerospace industry.

[Saqr]

Quote

However sending a team of engineers, technicians, scientists to china to work, or oversee a development for such a fighter can be beneficial in terms of gaining new knowledge expertise which can be later absorbed in the Pak aerospace industry.

That is exactly what we should be doing in joint productions.

[black eagle force]

I personally don't think China would let Pakistan in. First of all, Pakistan has nothing that China lacks, China has all the funds it needs, and more advanced technology than Pakistan.
Even if China lets Pakistan in, Pakistan wouldn't be in the same postion has they're now in the FC-1 program (i.e Probably not given the blueprint, no tech trnsfer, not allowed to produce the important components in Pakistan), but Pakistan may probably get to buy the fighter at a production cost (i.e China gets no profit).

[rafael_2k5]

black eagle force, on Sep 25 2004, 11:52 PM, said:

I personally don't think China would let Pakistan in. First of all, Pakistan has nothing that China lacks, China has all the funds it needs, and more advanced technology than Pakistan.
Even if China lets Pakistan in, Pakistan wouldn't be in the same postion has they're now in the FC-1 program (i.e Probably not given the blueprint, no tech trnsfer, not allowed to produce the important components in Pakistan), but Pakistan may probably get to buy the fighter at a production cost (i.e China gets no profit).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They(Pakistanis) may not b on the same boat as u suggest but somethin is better than nothin atleast theyll learn somethin n apply its benefits on existing/ future projects, n thats the way to go plus every body doubted our ability to make the bomb but we did it, its all about will power n belief which a nation may take it upon itself as a challenge!!!!!! so by joinin this project Pakistan would definitely gain , n one more thin about investment which u seem to be talkin about , why does the JSF have so many partners , do u think the US lacks funds, but other way around, same is the case do u think China lacks funds to make the JF-17? the reply is they dont but 4 projects to continue a lot of money is spent n if u have partners it surely helps in reducing the R&D costs!!!!!!!!!!

[visioninthedark]

I voted "yes" ... but the point is .... would the Chinese agree to let us in to this project? and if we did, I really don't know what benefit the Chnese would get from us regarding this issue ...

we'd be like gate-crashers ... sitting in the corner sipping the beer all alone ...

unless there is something specific that we can contribute ... I don't think the Chinese would be interested into letting us sit and watch them build the aircraft ...

Financial contribution ..... yes .... possible ..... but did u guys think that it would probably nedd billions of dollars?

[fiaz]

The question is does the PAF have the vision and the spare $$$ to invest in a future stealth aircraft.

[leuitenentcolonel]

yes from me too


Pakistan should invest in any stealth program with china bcoz it will give us massive support for our indegenisation also and it will also give Pakistan a stealth fighter in 10/15 years

[Saqr]

The PAF would look into acquiring 5th Generation Stealth Fighters from 2020 at the earliest, we need time to recover after inducting JF-17s remember?  Anyways, funds may not be the problem, and even if we can't join, I know Chinese A/C are relatively cheaper than their Western Counterparts.

If I was PAF, I'd study heavily in UCAVs, and build those at home because they'll replace pilots well in the future, and acquire the JXX from China, simply purchase.

[tank131]

DF,

With all due respect...a UCAV would be completely useless for Pakistan.  The reason is that for a UCAV to work, one must have airsuperiority or heavy stealth tech...Pakistan has the ability for neither.  UCAVs do not have the ability to replace the manned fighter...even in the future...the reason is that UCAVs are programed for the mission. How could you program a UCAV to seek and destroy enemy fighter?  Almost every time, a computer would likely lose to a manned fighter because the lack the ability for abstract thought...even the USAF has said that UAVs do not have the ability (in the foreseable future) to replace manned fighters (at least in the a2a arena).

Now, as it relates to China allowing PAF to join the project...of course PAF would have to get Chinese approval...but the question of why China would allow PAF to enter the project, especially when Pakistan has no tech to offer, and far less $$$ to offer the project than China does.  Well lets look at the JF-17.  Dont you think that if China can fund the XXJ and J-10, they could fully fund the JF-17?  What would have been the point of allowing the PAF to join the project if again PAF brough no tech and 1/2 the money (even though China could have easily funded it)?  The point to allow Pakistan into the project was to further Cement Sino/Pak strategic relations.  China's ultimate goal is to be THE SUPERPOWER of Asia.  It wants to be the ultimate big kid on the block.  The US, India, and the Sino/Taiwan issue stand in the way.  Now how do you push the US out of Asia (as the major player)...you cut into its alliances.  Pakistan is the key to the Chinese domination of Asia.  One Chinese official has put it best...Pakistan is China's Israel.  Pakistan will be China's way to help cement its rule in Asia...just as the US uses Israel to cement its rule in the middle east.  The biggest threat to Chinese domination (out of the Asians) is of course India...the only country in the world which can match China (population wise).  How does China make sure India cannot become a super power...it makes sure that Pakistan is its personal pit bull on a leash...when India is gaining too much...it makes sure that Pakistan is powerful enough to distract India while China continues to grow.  

This is one reason to allow Pakistan into the project...not saying that China will...but one reason is that a powerful Pakistan equal a powerful China.

[PakShaheen]

mmmmmm

Quite Intresting; Tank!

Not only Pakistan but soon old friends of US (Arabs) will join China.Bottom Line is we don't need Unipolar world.

[black eagle force]

rafael_2k5, on Sep 26 2004, 05:20 AM, said:

They(Pakistanis) may not b on the same boat as u suggest but somethin is better than nothin atleast theyll learn somethin n apply its benefits on existing/ future projects, n thats the way to go plus every body doubted our ability to make the bomb but we did it, its all about will power n belief which a nation may take it upon itself as a challenge!!!!!! so by joinin this project Pakistan would definitely gain , n one more thin about investment which u seem to be talkin about , why does the JSF have so many partners , do u think the US lacks funds, but other way around, same is the case do u think China lacks funds to make the JF-17? the reply is they dont but 4 projects to continue a lot of money is spent n if u have partners it surely helps in reducing the R&D costs!!!!!!!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tank131 has made a logical suggestion in why China lets Pakistan in for the JF-17 program.
As for why USA lets other countries in for the JSF- firstly, it'll reduce R&D cost. Don't see it to be a stupid reason, because the Americans ARE aiming to saving money, as its budget for the 5th generation fighter program is being cut;
secondly, it'll reinforce the relations with other countries (especially Europeans countries);
and finally, this isn't America's most advanced fighter program, the F-22 is.

But for China, J-XX is its most advanced fighter (most country will not share its most advanced technology) and the PRC isn't planning to cut PLAAF's fighter development budget (atleast not yet).

[Malikman]

abhey why are we polling junk up here....

don't people even know the basics???

PAF will sell thier kidneys if they had the chance to invest in a 5th GEn a/c.

  

Why on earth will the Chinese allow that???

  

think boys think....

[PakShaheen]

Malikman, on Sep 27 2004, 05:28 AM, said:

abhey why are we polling junk up here....

don't people even know the basics???

PAF will sell thier kidneys if they had the chance to invest in a 5th GEn a/c.

 

Why on earth will the Chinese allow that???

 

think boys think....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mmmmmm
second question is more intresting......

I think if we talk about J-10C, stealth version of the J-10A that will be more realistic as J-10B is already in air...It will not a fully stleath fighter but still have some sort of stealth.
BTW i don't think in Indo-Pak senario Stealth will be a big thing coz most of air fights will be WVR.

[tank131]

PakShaheen,

You are wrong my friend.  What is the ultimate point of stealth? To attack without the enemy realizing your there until its too late.  Look at all of the stealth aircraft (with Sr-71 excluded).  B-2...its a bomber (attack role), F-117 is a striker (attack role).  Even the F/A-22 is a primary striker...it offers Air Dominance along with the primary strike role (otherwise the US would also get rid of large numbers of F-15 airsuperiority fighters...but we arent).  Event the Joint STRIKE Fighter is a primary striker and secondarily an a2a fighter.  Just by virtue of their stealth, they are suprior to any a2a opponent...but their primary roles are strike without detection.

In the Indo-Pak theater, the stealth fighter offers enhanced strike capability (and for PAF this is critical because they have no fighter actually capable of launching deep strike into India).  Also, for PAF, it gives an real air superiority fighter to end IAF air domination.  Even in the WVR arena...the stealth fighter will rule supereme...you need a gun to lock on because the radar guided WVR missiles are virtually useless and the IR guided missiles are very succeptable to ECM and the fact that heat disipation techniques are likely gonna be used on the fighters.