48 replies to this topic

[BlackEagle]

What the world thinks of PAF

Indian resources have naturally refuted and denied PAF air superiority over the FIVE times larger IAF in the 65 and 71 wars. Indian and Pakistani claims and counter claims are pointless on this subject as they tend to be biased and blurred with nationalism. The only way to assess this is through the neutral and qualified international opinion, which has now become aviation history. Check out autobiography of Gen. Chuck Yeagers (yes, the one who broke the sound barrier), who 'refereed' the 1971 war and flew up and down the region collecting wreckage of IAF aircraft shot down by the PAF. Here is what he says, "the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio knocking out 102 Indian jets and losing 34 of their own. I am certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks, documented them by serial numbers, identified the components such as engines and rocket pods" Now he is not exactly a Pakistani, is he?


Check out the following world reputed aviation journals.


USA - Aviation week & space technology - December 1968 issue.
"For the PAF, the 1965 war was as climatic as the Israeli victory over the Arabs in 1967. A further similarity was that Indian air power had an approximately 5:1 numerical superiority at the start of the conflict. Unlike the Middle East conflict, the Pakistani air victory was achieved to a large degree by air-to-air combat rather than on ground. But it was as absolute as that attained by Israel.


UK - Air International - November - 1991
" the average PAF pilot is almost certainly possessed of superior skills when compared with, say, an average American pilot. As to those who are rated above average, they compare favourably to the very best "


Encyclopaedia of Aircraft printed in several countries by Orbis publications - Volume 5


"Pakistan's air force gained a remarkable victory over India in this brief 22 day war exploiting its opponents weaknesses in exemplary style - Deeply shaken by reverse, India began an extensive modernisation and training program, meanwhile covering its defeat with effective propaganda smoke screen.


If you feel more at ease with German and French, then also checkout the followings
Air Action (France) December 1988 and January 1989
Flugzeug (Germany) February (2) 1989


In addition to this, PAF put on show for inspection, its entire fleets after BOTH of the wars in presence of world dignitaries and aviation community. The five times bigger IAF should have annihilated the tiny PAF to prevent such displays!!!!!!
Now these are FACTS - what rides on a wave of nationalism is just fiction

[3BSD]

Kickass! Our Pilots no doubt are some of the best, no matter what Indians say, they can get Hawk trainers, heck even F-22s just for training, our pilots will still be better.  

Although we do need some more and better Jets.  

-3BSD

[harpy1]

Yeah kick ass pilots in 1950s vintage Mirages with mo BVR Missles, 4th Generation planes or decent awacs.

Yeah your super duper pilots haven,t shot down a pidgeon for over a decade.

So stop the bull crap about you lot being in the league of the Israelis. THE JEWS ACTUALLY WON THE WARS.

If i remember correctly in 1971 INDIANS TOOK YOUR COUNTRY BY THE TESTICLES and split it into two parts in 12 days..

Oh where was these super pilots in Kargil. ???????

Don,t tell me training the yanks how to fly their f16s & f15S CAUSE THE paks ARE THE BEST .

Yeah okay......... carry on dreaming

[vikasrehman]

        

[PhrozenFlame]

harpy1, on Dec 16 2002, 03:26 PM, said:

Yeah kick ass pilots in 1950s vintage Mirages with mo BVR Missles, 4th Generation planes or decent awacs.

Yeah your super duper pilots haven,t shot down a pidgeon for over a decade.

So stop the bull crap about you lot being in the league of the Israelis. THE JEWS ACTUALLY WON THE WARS.

If i remember correctly in 1971 INDIANS TOOK YOUR COUNTRY BY THE TESTICLES and split it into two parts in 12 days..

Oh where was these super pilots in Kargil. ???????

Don,t tell me training the yanks how to fly their f16s & f15S CAUSE THE paks ARE THE BEST .

Yeah okay......... carry on dreaming

If I remember correctly, In 1947 we DID NOT TOOK YOUR COUNTRY BY THE TESTICLES since we arent a gaynation and we dont drink urine like ur PM Desai used to do 24/7., we split ur country in to, not two but three parts

Kargil was in ur Airspace, not ours, and oh..who lost the more planes in Kargil...we or you?? , we went clean sheet, pissed off ur AF without even flying a plane, wat else can be more humelating ? Earn urself some dignity man.

Embarresmeent doesnt ends there...even with back up of AF and ur tough Black kitten..*cough* sorry..black kat commandos or whaetver you call them, cover up of ur "State-of-the-Art" Artillary, your"hugeeee fire power" you people had such a high rate of casualty in Kargil.

What else..those planes which fell down in Pak Territory?? man ur "Trained" pilots even dont know over were they are flying, must be thinking its somewhere near srinagar when all of a sudden hell broke loose and oh my god, your pilots found out that something was "INCOMMING" and bang! there crashes yet another plane..but this time it was shot-down, not shorted-down.

I luv you harpy (I'm not being Gay or something), it just gives me a chance to u know Exploit Indians.



      

[vikasrehman]

[halfemtysoul]

hahaha hes pissed`

[Waqar]

Without being biased, the average PAF fighter pilot is far superior to his IAF counter part. So say the experts - I still have a copy of Air International from November 1991.
The comparison we are making is between pilots and not airforces, the PAF is not as well equipped as the IAF which is also 5 times bigger.

You can't compare the Israeli AF with PAF because the Israeli's are totally bank rolled by the USA and given the latest hardware. I could do with 2 billion/year for the next 50 years, give or take a few years!

Like with like the PAF pilot can kick #### out of anyone, even the jews.

[troung]

"Like with like the PAF pilot can kick #### out of anyone, even the jews."

Every air force has good and bad pilots its a fact of life. There are good arab pilots and bad Israeli ones.

[Munir]

troung, on Dec 16 2002, 07:24 PM, said:

"Like with like the PAF pilot can kick #### out of anyone, even the jews."

Every air force has good and bad pilots its a fact of life. There are good arab pilots and bad Israeli ones.

                       Standard deviation bla bla bla...

I want to know the average... Is the average PAF pilot better then...

[PS:Annonymous]

B)  B)  B)

[troung]

"Standard deviation bla bla bla...
I want to know the average... Is the average PAF pilot better then... "


I was just saying that there is no honest way to say who is the best. The PAF is not fighting nations equipped with the same planes and weapons and niether is India. Nations with better weapons tend to win (USA/Israel) and most of the time nieghbors do not fly the same planes.

[PS:Annonymous]

halfemtysoul, on Dec 16 2002, 05:46 PM, said:

hahaha hes pissed`

                       Mission accomplished   

[troung]

For the record I am not taking a shot at the PAF.

[3BSD]

troung, on Dec 16 2002, 10:26 PM, said:

For the record I am not taking a shot at the PAF.

Your comments in this perticular thread are the same as going to a kid's BirthDay Party and telling him, "Hey kid, one day you are going to die". No need for honesty and realism in this one pal, it only amounts to flaming when you consider everyone else and the website itself.
Not saying you intended to flame, though.

-3BSD

[troung]

Ok, my mistake.

[PakShaheen]

Well man tell me when India shot down any UAV in night.It is a just an example set by some PAF pilots.I think these guys get something around 220 hours of flying which is far more than that of IAF's Pilots.

[pakistaniforce]

Its just not the training only, talk to any PAF pilot and u will see how much they love their country, and willing to sacrafice themself to protect it. When they take to the skys they dont care if they will return back, they just want to protect the airspace so nothing happends to the people of Pakistan.
PAF is always looking for pilots which love their country and are willing to do anythin for it, they arnt looking for guys which wanna be trained to be a fighter pilot for the fame or because its "cool" to fly a plane.

They know what will happen if they dont, same for Israeli pilot they know/knew they were against a force bigger then them, and if they (the enemy) wins all the jews would be pushed into the sea.


When Indian pilots take off from their AB, i bet u he they arnt thinking the same as the one from PAF, thats the major diffrence.

[vikasrehman]

Quiet surprisingly, i find myself agreeing with troung more in this ragard.
Ok, i consider paf pilots to receive better training than their IAF counterparts and many of them probably fly many more machines (considering the number of pilots, which fly in many arab forces), yet IAF pilots r not all that bad. Anyone can see the advantage an IAF pilot would have sitting in a su-30 cockpit compared with his PAF counterpart in j-7PG. Even if we get fc-1 and sd-10 does turn out to b on par with r-77 and even outrange, su-30 pilot might just have the first shot since he'll b able to c fc-1 long before fc-1 can. Also AWACS would surely change IAF tactics significantly.

PS. There is a very common saying in urdu;
apne dushman ko kabi kamzor mat samjo

says it all...dont yous think?
and that saying goes for a weak enemy...and in this case india evan has the quantitative/qualitative edge on pak.
B)

[Dubya Bushman]

PakShaheen, on Dec 16 2002, 09:37 PM, said:

Well man tell me when India shot down any UAV in night.It is a just an example set by some PAF pilots.I think these guys get something around 220 hours of flying which is far more than that of IAF's Pilots.

                       Firstly, shooting a subsonic UAV which flies in a straight line is no big deal and night is no factor if you know anything about Radars.

About flyiong hours, You are incorrect there my friend. Look at the following site which takes info from "Jane's Sentinel Security Assessment, 12-14-00"

http://www.aeronauti...pakistan_af.htm

Quote

As with the army, the Pakistan Air Force is a well trained, professional machine. Flying time per pilot is, on average, 210 hours (in comparison to India's 240).

[instantexcess]

IAF's FLYING HR.s




PAF's FLYING HR.s



THE ABOVE SCANS ARE TAKEN FROM THE FOLLOWING BOOK !

http://www.iiss.org/...8010172359a644c

NOW THE THING IS THIS THAT, do u have any Janes scans to back it up the #.s from that site up ! cuz i doubt if those are correct ! i mean a scan to support ur point will be great ! cuz as far as i remeber Janes rates PAF's flying hr.s more than that of IAF ! ............


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Edited by instantexcess, 16 December 2002 - 10:28 PM.

[vikasrehman]

Very interesting IE.

[chaklala]

Dubya:

The UAV was shot down using guns AND at night - so radar was not a factor.  When you use guns, its totally visual - that says a lot about the PAF skills.  SHooting down a UAV (which is very small) at night using guns is by no means an easy task.

Interesting stats IE

[rajeev]

P.A.F is a very efficient airforce with respect to the pilots training and commitment. You guys have good officers and training but lack the thrust in good technology in numbers. But for a country and economy the size of Pakistan, the PAF is a really remarkable airforce. This is a honest opinion.

[pakistaniforce]

rajeev, on Dec 17 2002, 12:48 AM, said:

P.A.F is a very efficient airforce with respect to the pilots training and commitment. You guys have good officers and training but lack the thrust in good technology in numbers. But for a country and economy the size of Pakistan, the PAF is a really remarkable airforce. This is a honest opinion.

                       Well Pakistan Air Force belives in technology we have tested these aircraft since the 80s:

F-5
A-10
F-16
JAS-39 A Gripen
Mirage-2000, then Mirage-2000-5
Tornado
Mig-29
Su-27

But due to Indias big influence in Russia, and lack of cash and comitment from the military and civil government we have no real hi tech aircraft, then some medium tech 19 year old F-16s.

[troung]

"Anyone can see the advantage an IAF pilot would have sitting in a su-30 cockpit compared with his PAF counterpart in j-7PG."


Quick questions.

1. If a PAF F-16A shot down a InAF MiG-21FL would that prove PAF pilot better?

2. If a InAF MiG-29S shot down a PAF J-7P would that make InAF pilots better?


You are not dealing with two countries which fly the same planes and have the same missiles. Even if they went into combat there woudl probaly be no way to see who was better.

[instantexcess]

in each case "YES"

cuz either way the Mig-21s are not far behind when it comes to Close combat ! but then again ! if the Mig-29 uses BVR then we are changing the context !

so YES ..... pilot's will mater !

[troung]

I probaly should have said FC-1 for the PAF.


Anyways the F-16 is a more agile than the MiG-21 and has better sensors so it will know 1st when a MiG-21 is around and were it is. The MiG-21 will have no idea on were the F-16 is unless its under GCI. Than the F-16 could dogfight longer if it needed to and carries more missiles to engage more MiG-21s. I used those examples to show that generally a modern plane would beat an older one.


I'm not saying anyone is better than anyone just you don't know.

[Dubya Bushman]

chaklala, on Dec 16 2002, 11:28 PM, said:

Dubya:

The UAV was shot down using guns AND at night - so radar was not a factor.  When you use guns, its totally visual - that says a lot about the PAF skills.  SHooting down a UAV (which is very small) at night using guns is by no means an easy task.

Interesting stats IE

                       Chaklala,

I distinctly remember seeing bits of AIM-9 Sidewinder missile next to the Indian UAV. It was not shot down using Guns.

[yaha111]

:XNuke

Edited by Psychosaint, 17 December 2002 - 10:06 PM.

[instantexcess]

i duno about how much Pakistan is shitty ! but i can assure u that ..... u are one Shame-less bastard ! that after being banned, u just cant keep ur shitty metality with you !

[3BSD]

Ban his pathetic ass, forever! How the hell did he get un-banned?

-3BSD

[instantexcess]

Quote

I distinctly remember seeing bits of AIM-9 Sidewinder missile next to the Indian UAV. It was not shot down using Guns

i have almost all teh images of that crash on my site ! can u plz point us where u saw them ? it will be great, cuz in a press confrence after the shot PAF said that guns were used to minimize the damage to teh Searcher Mark-2 !


http://home.primus.ca/~saleem_ahmed

[PS:Annonymous]

Yaha hinduvata human waste eater kid your thread is subject to nuke and I am Asking webby to ban you as other Mods/ members as well.

[instantexcess]

:XNuke

Edited by instantexcess, 17 December 2002 - 10:07 PM.

[PS:Annonymous]

And dont dare to post here because i am gonna nuke everyone of your post

[3BSD]

instantexcess, on Dec 18 2002, 12:06 AM, said:

"How the hell did he get un-banned?"


incase u havent noticed, he has a different nick now !

                       No, look at the number of posts, how did he post 197 posts so fast then?

-3BSD

[PS:Annonymous]

instantexcess, on Dec 17 2002, 11:06 PM, said:

:XNuke

                       No IE he has the same nick as before, he wasnt bann i guess. he has return with his shitty piece of brain, hehas left after eating and feding up with human waste

[halfemtysoul]

yaha ure nuts i swear lol the PAF was never involved in teh Kargil skirmishes, and yea even if there was an incident where a MiG29 locked on to the vipers is not a big deal, happens to every fighter pilot, so i guess u just pulled all that out of ure ass.

and chaklala i think hes right tho, cuase in modern day fighters the HUD and the radar help alot in combat including with the guns, now ive been playing alot of simulator games, the most realistic sim that ive played yet is the Falcon 4.0(mind u these might not be the original system but give a close look at the technology the real things in use). Now in that game for dogfights the gun mode has a radar guidance system coupled with ures and the bogeys velocity and all that other stuff i have no idea bout lol, helps u take out the enemy accourately unlike in the gun cams uve seen in the 60s and 70s. So its not that hard to shoot down an object with the gun, but offcoarse it takes skill to get the bogey in the gunsite if its a combat fighter but the UAV is pretty much flying in a straight line so not much skill showed there i guess. But still the average PAF fighter pilots way better then the average iaf fighter pilot the only reason they have an advantage over us is cause of the awacs, bvr and modern fighters element.

o and this just came into my mind, i read this book couple of yrs ago, forgot what it was called, but it was about the the cold war and all the wars that happened in that era. One of the things that just reminded me of something the US senators said bfore the vietnam war, was that the US has alot of high tech stuff including the Sparow, which at that time was advanced so they took off the guns from their phantoms and other naval combat fighters so they could put in more sparrows, this proved fatal since alot of the mig15s and mig19s made in close to the fighters and used there guns and took em down, another reason of the loss in nam. now this issue just shows the overconfidence they had and something the indians have right now, true that they have one of the best bvrs in teh world, way better then the sparrows, but u cant soley rely  on advanced technology, as was the case in nam, and i think this was one of the reasons why the TopGun school in Miramara was established, because the US has the best technology but they understood after nam that the human input has to be the best aswell.

[instantexcess]

oooo yes and dont gimme bull that BVRs are far better then they were back then ! cuz even today at certain altitudes and flight envelops, AoAs  etc. etc. they have less range then a Pl-5 ! and teh 2nd thing is that Guess what ...... Migs didnt had any counter measures back then ! ...... now the counter measures are far more affective !

.... so if there has been improvement made on side ..... then the other side has also countered that perfectly ! and thus Pilot Factor remains as important today .... as ever !