34 replies to this topic

[Saqr]

Ok, this is a proper thread that hopefully won't go wrong.

I think the PAF will go for the JAS-39E/F + Eireye + Datalink option as it is the cheapest Western Option (besides used F-16s and E-2s), not to mention the JAS-39E/F version won't host an American Engine and American parts (I think) it's then, a good option, however, the Swedes now get the final word.

[zetsui]

EC-2 we are getting without a doubt and probably the j-10 its our budget and stop making these lameass threads they are a waste of our time and don't decide anything, discussion is good, guesses is shitt

[PakShaheen]

Diving Falcon
========

Please stop building these kind of polls.PAF is not telling anything about procurment.Wait may some thing come in June as per promise made by ACM.

[Saad]

zetsui, on May 28 2004, 10:47 PM, said:

EC-2 we are getting without a doubt and probably the j-10 its our budget and stop making these lameass threads they are a waste of our time and don't decide anything, discussion is good, guesses is shitt

First of all it is not EC 2 but E 2C and quote the source for your claim that we are getting E 2C.Although I like Gripen more but I agree that prospects for J 10 are more bright.

[Magnus]

Mirage 2000-9 + Tiger-G AWACS System
====================================
Too costly .

JAS-39E/F + Eireye AWACS System + Datalink
====================================
1-Costly
2-American Nod to Sweden needed .
3-Swedish policy of checking it will not destroy balance of power in
South East Asia .


J-10 + Chinese A-50 AWACS System
====================================
J-10 - Available but not immediately
Chinese Awacs Programme - Undergoing testing . Far from production
and orders.

F-16A/B MLU + E-2C Hawkeye-2000 AWACS System
====================================
F-16 'Oh GOD no'
Probably F-18 request 'US will not indulge in any sales to disturb
balance'
Hawkeye-2000- 'Maybe Maybe Maybe Maybe Maybe Maybe'

Possibilities

J-10 future procurements with western packages along with American or Swedish options in coming years . If Kerry is president forget the AWACS as well from
the US

[Rahul]

Other than JF17  I can,t see PAF getting nothing untl 2010.

  USA won,t sell you anything other than Food ie soya beans.

  French is just too expensive can,t buy much on $3 billion a year budget.

  That leaves J10 frm China which is available post 2008.

   As for Awacs .......... Unless China developes one PAF will not get an Awacs ever.

[Saqr]

Rahul, STFU, No one invited you here, so get the hell outta here.

India doesn't have an AWACS either, so don't be soo proud of your self.

PakShaheen, dude, the last poll I made was glitched, it had a mistake on it, this one's correct.  I want to see what the PAF will actually do if it only had package options.

Finally, I think the JAS-39E/F + Eireye + Datalink will be chosen as this Gripen uses a European Engine, Radar, and virtually no American components.

[Magnus]

i have many european buds and i don`t like to say this.

European military policy makers are American biatches EXCEPT Germany and France.

France will sell equipment to Pakistan if Pakistanis are ready for
a huge payment PILL that comes with it . Swedish option is too
shaky . Chinese option is time dependent . American option is
like 'never ending wait'

[Saqr]

usman...

What would you prefer between the above, remember, the Mirage 2000-9 is a customized Mirage 2000-5Mk2, and it's price can vary from 60mn US Dollars to 75mn US Dollars a piece depending on custom.

[mani395]

JAS-39E/F ?
with eu2000's engine?

[jawad2004]

well i think if u r discussin a package deal then u also got  to include weapons(bvr etc) without which PAF will not buy any thing+TOT for JF17 cockpit will also be a big factor

[Saqr]

Quote

JAS-39E/F ?
with eu2000's engine

You haven't heard of the JAS-39E/F, it uses the M-88 and uses an AESA Radar, and uses no American parts.

[jawad2004]

AESA yet to be fitted to JAS39
It well take time and this is what PAF does not have
They r lookin for aircraft which can be inducted as Soon as possible
Well my search reasults some thing like this


* Features under development for future Gripens include:


An electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar based on the PS-05/A, now being developed by Ericsson. An AESA consists of an array of programmable "transmit-receive (TR)" modules that can operate in parallel to perform separate or collaborative functions, performing, for example, jamming and target acquisition at the same time. The AESA will provide enhanced multimode capabilities, as well as extended range for beyond visual range missiles. It is scheduled for introduction in the 2005:2010 timeframe.

In the long term, SAAB is looking at a new engine, such as the General Electric F414 or a thrust-vectoring version of the EJ200 engine used on the Eurofighter; conformal fuel tanks or a fuselage stretch for greater range; a wide-angle HUD; a binocular helmet-mounted display; a direct voice-command system; and an advanced missions support system.




Saab 2110  Project to meet JAS requirement.
JAS 39  Batch of 5 prototype development aircraft.
JAS 39A Batch 1 Initial production single-seater version. Mark 1 avionics fit: Hughes HUD, monochrome cockpit displays, D80 computer, PP1/PP2 displays processors, three MIL STD 1553B databuses, Microturbo TGA15-090 APU
JAS 39A Batch 2 Follow-on batch of single-seat fighters. Mark 2 avionics fit: Kaiser HUD, D80E computer, PP12 display processors, Microturbo TGA15-328 APU
JAS 39A+ Batch 2 Upgraded single-seat fighter with PS-5/A radar and MACS D96 computer, monochrome cockpit displays
JAS 39B Two-seat operational trainer version of JAS 39A. Internal cannon deleted, fuselage lengthened by 2 ft 2 in (0.655 m), larger cckpit canopy, ventral air intake for air conditoning system. Prototype was a JAS 39A Batch 1 aircraft converted on the producton line.
JAS 39B Batch 2 Initial production version of two-seat operational trainer.
JAS 39C Batch 2 Export Baseline Standard single-seat fighters for Swedish AF. Mark 3 avionics: colour cockpit displays, Sundstrand APU
JAS 39C Batch 3 Follow-on Export Baseline Standard single-seat fighters for Swedish AF. Mark 4 avionics: much larger LCD colour cockpit displays, five MIL STD 1553B databuses, RM12UP engine with FADEC.
JAS 39D Batch 3 Follow-on batch of two-seat operational trainers.
JAS 39C/D SAAF Export Baseline Standard aircraft with substantial South African avionics and equipment for delivery to the SAAF.
JAS 39E/F  Designation reserved for proposed upgraded version with an AESA electronically scanned radar.
JAS 39G/H  Designation reserved for further upgraded version at some point in the future.
JAS 39X  Generic designation for export version.

[Magnus]

To Diving Falcon

IF IF IF i have money and iam incharge of PAF i will choose.

JAS-39E/F + Eireye AWACS System + Datalink

Enough to keep any enemy away from my airspace .

[jawad2004]

even i will
but featuers he is takin  r not available at this time
weapons?

[Jehangir]

i think jas-39,   3 squardon + Eireye AWACS System 6 pieces

[omarxizt]

J-10 is the only possibilities as far as PAF and its future is concerned. No other country is willing to help us and well we are again all alone in the fight for our Air Force and much of our defences. So better start searching and developing our own things or just put that mind frame in check mode because we would need to before long.

China has to be the single most reliable partner we had and will have as far as defence is concerned. I am pretty sure that SA will have our back in diplomatic avenues as far as the royal family is in place. So keep the diplomatic ties within SA and then go after the high tech with China sounds like a winning plan to counter any threat level.

[Rahul]

Like i said earlier.......... PAF will not be getting european Hardware....... Its too expensive for PAF........

  USA will only give economic assistance.

  That leaves china.

  Russia & Israel are with india.

   This is not a dig at PAF despite wat people think.

   ITS HARD COLD REALITY

[Kano]

Rahul, on Jun 1 2004, 02:59 AM, said:

Like i said earlier.......... PAF will not be getting european Hardware....... Its too expensive for PAF........

  USA will only give economic assistance.

  That leaves china.

  Russia & Israel are with india.

   This is not a dig at PAF despite wat people think.

   ITS HARD COLD REALITY

The hard cold reality is that you are not privvy to PAF's acquistion plans and goals.

PAF will be recieving a huge sum of $12-15 dollars in the next 5 years to modernize its fleet.

Western hardware, chiefly Mirage 2000 series is obviously within its reach. PAF had concluded a deal for Mirage 2000-5's in 1996 what to talk of now.

Also it is the most suitable climate it has been in 2 decades, be it political or financial.

Just sit your Indian ass down to see PAF upgrade itself within the next few years.

Plus, diving falcon cheetay, TIGER-G AWACS? LOL will France make that no good  obsolete AWACS for you? Tu bhi hadd karta hai yaar.

[Saqr]

Quote

Plus, diving falcon cheetay, TIGER-G AWACS? LOL will France make that no good obsolete AWACS for you? Tu bhi hadd karta hai yaar

lol... ....couldn't find anything else, thats all.

Rahul, STFU!!!!!

Dude, I can kick your ass in a debate, fight, you name it, I'm there to do it, it's really easy to do so, but time consuming, unlike you, Sinopak, Lulldapull, who have waaay tooo much time on their hands, I have school...

However, for the sake of it, this one won't hurt me much...

Firstly, recieving 12-15bn US Dollars over the next 10 years isn't all that hard, see, that's like 1.2-1.5bn US Dollars a year in that timeline.  However, have you forgotten that the PAF has 2.5bn US Dollars from ForEx since late 2003, add that up loser, meaning that the Government has like 9.5-12.5bn US Dollars to spend on the PAF over the next ten years.

Secondly, nowadays, with the economy improving, financial as well as political problems are very low compared to the 1990s, and right now France is pushing for the sale of Mirage 2000/-5/-5Mk2/-9 aircraft to the PAF, as well as more Agosta-90B Kits to the PN.

Thirdly, I'll be back, school!

[Desert Eagle2]

None of those "packages" is really all that likely, Pakistan will more or less receive a mix of the above from various suppliers.

In the running for PAF's choice of AWACS is either the Erieye AEW&C or the E-2C Hawkeye.  From the rumblings that have been heard, it seems like the possibilities of the PAF receiving either are evenly split.  Though I have heard some well informed PakDef members claim that Pakistan has been engaged in negotiations with the Swedes for the Erieye.

Ideally, I'd like to see the PAF purchase something like the Rafale or at least the Gripen (would go great coupled with the Erieye).  But methinks the PAF is relatively set on the Mirage 2000-9.  The J-10 will be exercised as an option of last resort, the PAF certainly does not want to put all its eggs in one basket (aka the Chinese) and the plane is not proven, not to mention I doubt it's avionics package will compare to anything western nations can churn out.

I'd say between 1 to 2 years we'll have a good/solid idea what the PAF will look like over the next decade or two, in the meanwhile we can keep guessing with obnoxious threads like this.

(btw, great to see Usmanali back on the forum)

[Hataf]

Jehangir, on May 30 2004, 06:17 AM, said:

i think jas-39,   3 squardon + Eireye AWACS System 6 pieces

just wait for JF -17 or J10 may be , but nothing else, stop dreaming high.

let say we get his package, but which A2A missile are we gona use??? do you really think that USA will let us  to use Aim 120C ....which is currently being used on JAS-39????????????????....stop dreaming & watch this reality show.................

Reality is
JF-17 + SD10

or

J10 + SD10

End of show. :hitwall

[leuitenentcolonel]

Hataf, on Jun 2 2004, 01:03 AM, said:

just wait for JF -17 or J10 may be , but nothing else, stop dreaming high.

let say we get his package, but which A2A missile are we gona use??? do you really think that USA will let us  to use Aim 120C ....which is currently being used on JAS-39????????????????....stop dreaming & watch this reality show.................

Reality is
JF-17 + SD10

or

J10 + SD10

End of show. :hitwall

THE PACKAGES MENTIONS ARE GR8 BUT IN REALLITY

THERE WOULD BE

FC1 WITH SD10

J10 WITH SD10 AND/OR MATRA


A50 OR Eireye AWACS System + Datalink

[leuitenentcolonel]

WELL YES MAYBE SOME M2K5 OR M2K9 PROBABLY 30 THATS IT



OR Pakistan WOULD GO FOR CHINESE ONLY LIKE FBC1A AND FBC1B I WISH ##### UKRAINE GIVE US THOSE SU27

[jawad2004]

Quote

Like i said earlier.......... PAF will not be getting european Hardware....... Its too expensive for PAF........

no decision has been taken yet so y r u saying that u r sure that paf will not get eu hardware?
PAF CAS said that they r in decision making phase.

Quote

USA will only give economic assistance.

  (w00t)
O God these indians r realy funny
u might be tring to tell us the jok of the year

Quote

Russia & Israel are with india.

u should be sure about Isreal as Pakistan  never wanted it to be on their side but as far as Russia  is concerned ice is breaking and india is not able to stope it.( yes it will take some time to et on job for high tec sales)

[USAM]

Rahul you have here for some time and instead of threashing Pak you don't do much like may be read.     Any big weapon purchases are not part of declared or secert Defence Budget they come differently and Air Force like other forces get some money for procu. But now they are concentrating on Air Force and then Navy with 12 to 15 B and the fact that PA will save abot 20 B ruppees per year and the face that they are well equiped will not get major share. And with that 20 B they are saving they will do some stuff on their own.

[General]

the fact is that Pakistan is not buying anything as yet.I don't know but I just don't believe the ACM.

[Saad]

And as a matter of fact Chinese high tech equipment has both Israeli and Russian hi tech sub units and Pakistan has access to these Chinese high tech machines and as a result Pakistan is indeed benefiting from Russian and Israeli technology brake throughs.

[MAKAVELLI]

Tell you the truth Pakistan is not going to buy anything till we get all of our Jf 17 i forgot how many than they will decide what to buy which will suite our planes and personal so i say forget everything till 2007 or maybe 2008. Pakistan is saving money they will have enough by 2007 or 08 to go for French high tech stuff and by than China will have it AWACS and our JF 17s.
so by 2010 PAF  will be some what like this:

200~ JF17
80~ hightech Frontline fighters
60~ j10s
good SAMS and good ABM
and good survellance system such as AWACS and EWR
INSHALLAH :pkflg)  :pkflg)  :pkflg)

[mani395]

Quote

Tell you the truth Pakistan is not going to buy anything till we get all of our Jf 17 i forgot how many than they will decide what to buy which will suite our planes and personal so i say forget everything till 2007 or maybe 2008. Pakistan is saving money they will have enough by 2007 or 08 to go for French high tech stuff and by than China will have it AWACS and our JF 17s.
so by 2010 PAF will be some what like this:

200~ JF17
80~ hightech Frontline fighters
60~ j10s
good SAMS and good ABM
and good survellance system such as AWACS and EWR
INSHALLAH   

last year news appeare on media(Hi Pakistan) that PAF Chief and other Defence related Peoples disscused the PAFs Plane of buing 400 fighters in a decades time.

[knight_warrior]

When Pakistan gets the  Major Non-NATO Ally status, Pakistan then can get almost what ever it wants possibly  F-16  & Awacs... who knows?  but  like the other countries who have this status paksitan will benifit a lot. Lets see what happens in comming weeks and months.

[tallyho]

Diving Falcon, on May 28 2004, 09:45 PM, said:

Ok, this is a proper thread that hopefully won't go wrong.

I think the PAF will go for the JAS-39E/F + Eireye + Datalink option as it is the cheapest Western Option (besides used F-16s and E-2s), not to mention the JAS-39E/F version won't host an American Engine and American parts (I think) it's then, a good option, however, the Swedes now get the final word.

     Eryeye is OK but JAS39----I don't know. How many systems do U want to induct  without compromising on maintenance & logistics.

[tank131]

I think that the best option would be to not get any of these fighters...but contract whoever developed Gripens avionics to develop a datalink system (similar to gripen's) for the JF-17.  Couple that with Erieye and you have a system that is virtually as good as the Gripen/Erieye combo.  This would be a huge advantage for PAF...it would enable the JF-17 to fly most anywhere without the radar on (which would greatly reduce its detecability), while at the same time utilizing the Erieyes to guide the aircraft and its weapons to target (via datalink) all without turning on the JF-17 radar.  All PAF needs it to get the Erieye (or any AWAC of quality) and equip the JF-17s with a modern advanced datalink...that would prove as affective as buying Gripens...but would cost a hell of alot less.

[leuitenentcolonel]

GRIPPEN IS TOOOOO EARLY TO BUY DONT GO FOR IT FIRST WATCH THE MILITARY STRATEGIES AND THEN GO FOR IT RIGHT NOW STICK TO JF17,J10 AND ON FBC1 AND START BUYING LIMITED PER YEAR M2K5 OR M2K9 WATEVER BUT AN AWACS WHETHER ITS A50,E2,ERIEYE BUY WHICH IS POSSIBLE AND ATLEAST 3

[oz281]

PAF's next plane would be JF-17.
I wouldnt be surprised if a version of Mirage 2000 is inducted to plug the gaps !
Oz :hool: