39 replies to this topic

[PAKISTANI4LIFE]

CNN

THEY HAVENT USED THE WORD TERROR OR TERRORIST WHEN IT CAME TO THE PALESTINIANS, HAVE THEY?


Pakistan ZINDABAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :pkflg)

[sinopak]

4Life

What would you call them?? Do you think it appropriate (good and right) to do suicide and to kill innocents along with oneself??

[AmericanMarine]

I don't call them terrorists either. I call them ##### idiots.

[visioninthedark]

anyone who kills INNOCENT CIVILIANS are pure TERRORISTS!!

no matter who they are ... if they target civilians they are terrorists!!

These people who carried out these attacks are TERRORISTS!!

[ZFBoxcar]

zengi, enjoy your time here, you will be gone soon.

[Indonesiana]

Hmmm, another flames again!!


Not just yet - Zengi is history!

Edited by sinopak, 15 March 2004 - 09:27 AM.

[imran miah]

How the fu** can palestinians be terrorists if they're fighting terrorists?

[Blackclaw]

imran miah, on Mar 15 2004, 06:55 AM, said:

How the fu** can palestinians be terrorists if they're fighting terrorists?

If it is wrong for Israeli soldiers to kill civilians than it is wrong for Palestinian fighters to kill civilians as well.

[Blackclaw]

tauseef_1981, on Mar 15 2004, 07:02 AM, said:

infact USA is a nation that has waged wars woth more than 14 countries and killed the most number of INNOCENT civilians around the world....PANAMA, EL SALVADOR, SOMALIA, AFGH, IRAQ...U NAME IT!!!!!

Compared to who? The Germans? The Soviets? The Cambodians?

In modern times, the US's technology has allowed it to inflict far fewer civilian casualties than any other military force in the world would have while trying to accomplish the same objectives.

Now exactly what is your problem? Your mom not hug you enough?

[sinopak]

It's unfortunate that some among us seem not to be able to distinguish between right/wrong, good/bad -- these are the criteria by which we can evaluate propositions - instead some argue that the justification for adopting a deliberate, conscious decison to implement a policy of terrorism is that they disagree with the policies of other states - can such a argument be valid?? If yes, how so?? Is targetting civilians good and right, if yes, what objection can be offered if others should target those who argue in support of terror???

[FASAL XJ]

why cant they buy a few shoulder fired SAMs SA-7s,SA-16s, stingers etc, A hell of alot of anti tank mines, A few thousand RPGs,AT-3s,Koret Es ,sniper rifles, Pay some mercenaries to fight israli troops. Its that simple.
If the israli military invades there teritorry they'll smah them with all there fire power. The palestinians shpuld fight a gurilla war with israil.

[Aarshad]

they are just terrorists. just like the israeli army.    

both party here are @#$

[denebola]

Blackclaw, on Mar 15 2004, 09:28 AM, said:

Compared to who? The Germans? The Soviets? The Cambodians?

In modern times, the US's technology has allowed it to inflict far fewer civilian casualties than any other military force in the world would have while trying to accomplish the same objectives.

BC,

What kind of logic is that?

Are you saying that you have killed a couple of millions less than the German and the Combodian (which I seriously doubt), you are lesser of the two evil?

Let me tell you there is not much of a difference between sombody who murders 5 and somebody who murders 10,  both are murderers.

If anything, USA has a much longer history of doing it.

[Blackclaw]

denebola, on Mar 16 2004, 08:19 PM, said:

BC,

What kind of logic is that?

Are you saying that you have killed a couple of millions less than the German and the Combodian (which I seriously doubt), you are lesser of the two evil?

Let me tell you there is not much of a difference between sombody who murders 5 and somebody who murders 10,  both are murderers.

If anything, USA has a much longer history of doing it.

Stop smoking crack. Name a war in which any nation involved managed to not kill any civilians. If you consider the US a murderer because it has participated in wars than you are pretty much calling every nation on the planet murderers.

Your hatred of the US leads you to make outrageous statements, poor analogies, and limits your thinking ability.

[imran miah]

Blackclaw,
your defininetely the one smoking crack, the u.s waged a ilegal war in iraq which the majority of the countries opposed, you kill in the name of justice.

[denebola]

Blackclaw, on Mar 17 2004, 07:00 AM, said:

Stop smoking crack.

Ad hominen.

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Name a war in which any nation involved managed to not kill any civilians. If you consider the US a murderer because it has participated in wars than you are pretty much calling every nation on the planet murderers.

I guess your implication is  that every country on the planet has:

1. Committed genocide of Native Americans.

2. Slavery of Africans for 250 years.

3. Practice official racism against blacks and colored people for 350 years.

4. Has killed millions of Philippino civilians.

5. Has nuked Hiroshima & Nagasaki

6. Killed over a million Koreans

7. Killed 2+ milion Vietnamese civilians, 1/2 million Lahotian, 1/4 million Cambodian.

8. Dropped Agent Orange and Napalm on civilian populations.

9. Supported all kinds of despot/dicators around the world.

10. Supported policy of terrorism against Nicaragua and other Latin American countries.


The list can go on and on.  I am not saying Germany Cambodia are saints, but it should be obvious to you that your record is worse.

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Your hatred of the US leads you to make outrageous statements, poor analogies, and limits your thinking ability.

More ad hominen.

90% of the world population has opposing point of view than you.

So you are going to dub 90% of these people who hate USA? NONSENSE.

If you look at the brief dossier above, it should be obvious to you that the very foundation of your country is built on hate, and has perpetrated hate for 400 years.  Even in 20th century many of your foreign policieis have been based on hate and racism.

I am amazed at your gall to dub other haters.

[imran miah]

blackclaw you know what denabola has said is the truth, so stop deluding yourself.

[Blackclaw]

"Denebola" said:

"Blackclaw said:

Stop Smoking Crack

Ad hominen.

Useful suggestion.

All of the things you list off are irrelevant without context.

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The list can go on and on.  I am not saying Germany Cambodia are saints, but it should be obvious to you that your record is worse.

Here's a debate term for you, cite? And additionally, by what standard are you going to back up your theory? Body count based on proportion? Efficency of handing out death within a certain time span? I'm really quite curious as to how you are going to back this nonsense up. Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union alone caused 20 million casualties..

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90% of the world population has opposing point of view than you.

If 90% of the world population all jumped off a cliff and tried to flap their arms in an attempt to fly, it would still be a stupid thing to do. Having a majority veiwpoint does not make it the correct viewpoint.

False appeal to authority

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If you look at the brief dossier above, it should be obvious to you that the very foundation of your country is built on hate, and has perpetrated hate for 400 years.  Even in 20th century many of your foreign policieis have been based on hate and racism.

I say that the foundation of the US is based upon the idea of breaking free of tyrannical Europeans and the remarkable concept that people should have a voice in their government. Working out just who those people are has been a long struggle, but at least we have undertaken it, an effort that most of the world has failed to do. US foreign policy is based on self interest, just like every other nation on the planet.

[Blackclaw]

imran miah, on Mar 17 2004, 09:35 AM, said:

blackclaw you know what denabola has said is the truth, so stop deluding yourself.

Oh it's worse than that. He knows snippets of the truth. He doesn't know the whole truth and fails to comprehend what the small parts he does hold mean. But he doesn't care because he is only interested in those parts of history that back his foregone conclusion that the US is bad. Any evidence that the US is good he discards. The result is a very skewed understanding of the world. He has created a two diminsional construct of reality that is more false than if he didn't know any truth at all.

I expect that to go flying over your head like a kangaroo on speed.

[visioninthedark]

imran miah, on Mar 17 2004, 03:40 PM, said:

Blackclaw,
your defininetely the one smoking crack, the u.s waged a ilegal war in iraq which the majority of the countries opposed, you kill in the name of justice.

you talk about majority of countries ... BUT

you don't mention the local iraqis; the majority of whome were relieved by the removal of sad-damn ... !

it doesn't matter what other countries think ... what matters is whether the locals supported the removal of sad-damn or not ... which they certainly DID!!

[denebola]

Blackclaw, on Mar 17 2004, 10:09 AM, said:

All of the things you list off are irrelevant without context.

So a proper context can justify genocide, slavery, racism, nuking of civilians etc. ?

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Here's a debate term for you, cite? And additionally, by what standard are you going to back up your theory? Body count based on proportion? Efficency of handing out death within a certain time span? I'm really quite curious as to how you are going to back this nonsense up. Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union alone caused 20 million casualties..

Look, look I did not say German's were saints.

I just gave you a brief glimpse of what your country did, and what it did was wrong.

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If 90% of the world population all jumped off a cliff and tried to flap their arms in an attempt to fly, it would still be a stupid thing to do. Having a majority veiwpoint does not make it the correct viewpoint.

Yupp only 5% Americans have the right viewpoint, the rest 95% of the world population is wrong.

Your viewpoint is that of Right Wing America, even in your own country at least 30% of the population disgrees with you on consistent basis, another 30% most of the time.

You need to get out of your Right Wing Bubble in which you live, more often!

Here is survery done by Pew Rsearch Centre 1 year after Iraq War:
http://people-press....p3?ReportID=206

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I say that the foundation of the US is based upon the idea of breaking free of tyrannical Europeans and the remarkable concept that people should have a voice in their government. Working out just who those people are has been a long struggle, but at least we have undertaken it, an effort that most of the world has failed to do. US foreign policy is based on self interest, just like every other nation on the planet.

Wow!! This is the most amzaing thing I have heard from you! Is that the kind of hogwash you have been taught in your school?

Breaking free from the tyranny of Europeans but using the same tyranny against the Native Americans and Blacks?

Do you see the double standard? Do you see the problem with the premise of American foundation as  "breaking free from tyrany" ?

Look at the facts, not some blah, blah by founding forefathers who were themselves slave owners.  Look at what actually happend.

If you have any sense of history then you would know that concept of freedom or democracy was not invented by the Americans, it has existed for time immemorial.

Your assumption about the rest of the world is wrong, like I said earlier you need to get out more often.

[Blackclaw]

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So a proper context can justify genocide, slavery, racism, nuking of civilians etc. ?

You are misrepresenting history. You have a smattering of facts but not the reasons behind them. Yes, in some of those cases the reasons were completely unjustified.

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Look, look I did not say German's were saints.

You said the US had a worse record than Germany and I challenged that contention.

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I just gave you a brief glimpse of what your country did, and what it did was wrong.

The US was not wrong in all the cases you listed. I think nuking two cities was preferable to wiping out most of Japan in a massive invasion. You cite the wrong of slavery but fail to recognize that thousands of Americans died to stop the practice.

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Yupp only 5% Americans have the right viewpoint, the rest 95% of the world population is wrong.

Back when most of the world's population thought the the world was flat and the sun was a god were they right just because they were the majority? Appealing to popular sentiment holds no sway with me. Defend any points you have with logic.

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If you have any sense of history then you would know that concept of freedom or democracy was not invented by the Americans, it has existed for time immemorial.

Strawman. I made no claim that the US invented democracy, just that it was based upon its remarkable concept.

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Your assumption about the rest of the world is wrong, like I said earlier you need to get out more often.

And someday you may accidentally understand another point of view and give yourself whiplash.

[imran miah]

visioninthedark, on Mar 17 2004, 10:15 AM, said:

you talk about majority of countries ... BUT

you don't mention the local iraqis; the majority of whome were relieved by the removal of sad-damn ... !

it doesn't matter what other countries think ... what matters is whether the locals supported the removal of sad-damn or not ... which they certainly DID!!

visioninthedark, perhaps you could tell me who first put bastard saddam into power and who supplied him with wmds?

which reminds me where are the wmds, the primary reoson bastard bush waged this war?
and you talk about what the iraqis want, what about what the palestinians want huh?, i don't see them getting "liberated".

[AmericanMarine]

Palestinians? Haha. Not one ounce of respect.

[imran miah]

AmericanMarine, on Mar 17 2004, 02:16 PM, said:

Palestinians? Haha. Not one ounce of respect.

what did you say?

[denebola]

Blackclaw, on Mar 17 2004, 12:30 PM, said:

You are misrepresenting history. You have a smattering of facts but not the reasons behind them. Yes, in some of those cases the reasons were completely unjustified.

I disagree on the misinterpretation of history, history is what it is.

Anyway finally you have shown some mea culpa, I would call that progress.

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The US was not wrong in all the cases you listed. I think nuking two cities was preferable to wiping out most of Japan in a massive invasion. You cite the wrong of slavery but fail to recognize that thousands of Americans died to stop the practice.

I am never gonna agree with you on Nagasaki and Hiroshima, so it is pointless to even discuss that, we have had this discussion in the past.

My views are diametrically opposite than yours, USA was wrong to nuke Hiroshima, Nagasaki 3 days after Hiroshima was evil.

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Back when most of the world's population thought the the world was flat and the sun was a god were they right just because they were the majority? Appealing to popular sentiment holds no sway with me. Defend any points you have with logic.

Again you are wrong. It was not  the whole world, it was only the European Right Wing Establishment and European Right Wingers who thought world was flat.

Retrogade and reactionary thinking has always been hallmark of the right wingers.

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And someday you may accidentally understand another point of view and give yourself whiplash.

As a secular liberal I am open to all kinds of views (as long as they are secular and liberal point of view!)

[AnvilAnthony]

imran miah, on Mar 15 2004, 06:55 AM, said:

How the fu** can palestinians be terrorists if they're fighting terrorists?

If you think that israeli civilians are terrorist you should've never have been brought into this world to begin with, we already have enough sick sons of bitches like yourself, we don't need anymore.

[AmericanMarine]

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what did you say?

I said:

Palestinians? Haha. Not one ounce of respect.

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How the fu** can palestinians be terrorists if they're fighting terrorists?

Isn't it scum like you that call the USA terrorists? How can we be terrorists, when we're fighting terrorists? Don't you think it's time a country got the balls to do such a thing?

[Blackclaw]

denebola, on Mar 17 2004, 03:17 PM, said:

Again you are wrong. It was not  the whole world, it was only the European Right Wing Establishment and European Right Wingers who thought world was flat.


As a secular liberal I am open to all kinds of views (as long as they are secular and liberal point of view!)

Alrighty then. I'm going to recommend your doctor up your medication levels. Let's introduce a daily does of electroshock therapy and no more leftist literature. Now if you behave yourself, stop chewing up the padded walls of your cell and stop calling the orderlies "Right wing Reactionaries" then we can loosen up the straps on your strait jacket okay? Okay, I'll check back in with you later to see how you are progressing.

[denebola]

Blackclaw, on Mar 18 2004, 06:58 AM, said:

Alrighty then. I'm going to recommend your doctor up your medication levels. Let's introduce a daily does of electroshock therapy and no more leftist literature. Now if you behave yourself, stop chewing up the padded walls of your cell and stop calling the orderlies "Right wing Reactionaries" then we can loosen up the straps on your strait jacket okay? Okay, I'll check back in with you later to see how you are progressing.

Yet more Adhominen attack.

Why it is that you Americans can't carry on a conversation without indulging  in  personal attack?

In case you are not aware, such attack coming from an American is perceived as RACISM.

Or may you be you are doing it purposely because you are a RACIST?

My remark about medieval Europeans was historically accurate.  It was the orthodox christian establishment, which was resistent to change and imposed its dogmstic views, that by definition is conservative and right wing.

My other observation that medieval Europe was not centre of the universe, was also right. Majority of the world population lived in Asia then. China was #1 country with 30% of world economy, and India was #2 with 25% of world economy.

Unfortunelty it seems the right wing conservatives still seem stuck in the medieval European way of thinking, they would not accept change without being dragged kicking and screeming.

[Blackclaw]

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Why it is that you Americans can't carry on a conversation without indulging  in  personal attack?

I only insult folks whose egos really need it. I'm just looking out for your ability to get your head through doorways.

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In case you are not aware, such attack coming from an American is perceived as RACISM.

Utter nonsense. Americans can be of any race. We may be of the same race for all you know. I don't know what race you are, so it is impossible for me to hold racist thoughts against you.

You basically admited that you were open to any viewpoint so long as it matched your own. I figured you were kind of kidding, but the description seems apt enough. You are incapable of seeing any other point of view other than your own. This limits your ability to comprehend reality.

[imran miah]

AmericanMarine, on Mar 17 2004, 09:47 PM, said:

I said:

Palestinians? Haha. Not one ounce of respect.


Isn't it scum like you that call the USA terrorists? How can we be terrorists, when we're fighting terrorists? Don't you think it's time a country got the balls to do such a thing?

You fuc**** prick, if your fighting terrorism, why the fu** don't you abide by the laws of the u.n you #####, why the ###### does israeli get away with everything?

and are you saying palestian children are terrorists, why the f*** do they get killed since israel is a model of society ?

[ZFBoxcar]

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My remark about medieval Europeans was historically accurate. It was the orthodox christian establishment, which was resistent to change and imposed its dogmstic views, that by definition is conservative and right wing.

Wow, did it occur to you that maybe he was referring to the time BEFORE it was just a resisted view, when people actually DIDNT know the facts, rather than just ignoring them.  Or do you think from the beginning of time the "right wing establishment" was trying to prevent people from knowing the earth was round?

[denebola]

Blackclaw, on Mar 18 2004, 09:04 AM, said:

I only insult folks whose egos really need it. I'm just looking out for your ability to get your head through doorways.

Your need to insult others  is typical American racist behaviour.

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Utter nonsense. Americans can be of any race. We may be of the same race for all you know. I don't know what race you are, so it is impossible for me to hold racist thoughts against you.

True, but in American context, given American history,  it ususally refers to white American racism.

When somebody says America is a racist country, that person is not referring to the the minorities, that person is referring to racism of the majority.

This is an international forum, your types of personal attack coming from an American is perceived as American Racism.

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You basically admited that you were open to any viewpoint so long as it matched your own. I figured you were kind of kidding, but the description seems apt enough. You are incapable of seeing any other point of view other than your own. This limits your ability to comprehend reality.

This is what I had written:

"As a secular liberal I am open to all kinds of views (as long as they are secular and liberal point of view!)"

Notice the parantheis part and the the exclamation mark. Ok. so you figured out that the pun was intended.

I disagree with your rest of your assesment.

[denebola]

ZFBoxcar, on Mar 18 2004, 09:53 AM, said:

Wow, did it occur to you that maybe he was referring to the time BEFORE it was just a resisted view, when people actually DIDNT know the facts, rather than just ignoring them.  Or do you think from the beginning of time the "right wing establishment" was trying to prevent people from knowing the earth was round?

ZFB,

Get a dictionary preferably OED, and look up the definition of conservative and liberal.

It should help you inderstand the point  I was making.

[ZFBoxcar]

denebola, you have never, ever made a coherent point on this forum, dont tell ME to look up definitions.

[denebola]

ZFBoxcar, on Mar 18 2004, 12:32 PM, said:

denebola, you have never, ever made a coherent point on this forum, dont tell ME to look up definitions.

May be I didn't dumb them down to your level?

Anyway what is your definition of the two words conservative & liberal?

[ZFBoxcar]

okay...liberalism in its old form, not its more recent variant, is a tolerance of opposing view points, opposes bigotry, does not allow for a moral code (as the ideology is based around cultural relativism, although this is more in the last 40 years).  In modern times liberalism has become enmeshed with socialism, at least in North America.  The welfare state, big government, and spineless foreign policy are all associated with modern liberalism.

Conservativism exists in several branches.  Youve got your libertarians (who are very similar to the old type of liberal), who believe in the absolute most amount of freedom with the absolute minimum of government, youve got your religious right who believe in adherence to strict moral codes.  The main concept that unites them is their belief in low taxes and small role for the state in peoples lives.  Also, there are the so called neo-cons who preach small government but dont really practice it and who believe in tough foreign policy.  And of course there are those who apply parts of all of these different conservative views.

I dont know why you feel the need to test me, and Im sure you will come up with a dictionary definition and gp "aha! see, youre wrong! websters told me so!" but w/e.