4582 replies to this topic

[DipSetDiplomat]

Clearly photoshopped.....Fairly Old.....ah another useless thread

[scorpion]

OH ...budiies....
  
         the maiden flight expected in june 2003 ....
         the proto-type does'nt mean that aircraft is ready for serial production......
         aircraft must undergo tests and other screening.....that i was told by paf officials at pac kamra stall in convention centre islamabad at exhibition ......

        well agreeing to lulldapull
                                                    that by 2015 the specifications will be obsolete....yeah ! man .......but we dont have the finances or other resourses for fighter like euro-fighter or f-22.........and secondly now the more importance is of electronics and avionics ...means that f-22 max.speed is 1.9 mach......if w.r.t time now its speed shoud have been 5 mach....but its not very important...imp is the avionics....so w.r.t avionics still s-7 will be better than all paf current fighters......including f-16 coz its not a bvr capable.......but s-7 is gonna be bvr ........so in this particular context it will be better than f-16.........

[PhrozenFlame]

Eagle, on Apr 21 2003, 06:38 AM, said:

The report does not says that the induction will be "completed" in 5-6 years. Infact the report says that Super-7 will be "formally inducted" into the air force "AFTER" five to six years.

Every new fighter takes lot of time for testing before induction. Hundreds of testing hours and several dozen test flights need to be done to certify it's capabilities. If some flaw is discovered during the testing, then it takes even more time to fix it. Super-7 is no exception. It's some patriotic people who believe that FC-1 will fly this june and and finish all it's test flights in about one year, well it doesn't happens that way.

my bad, thanx for clearing that out, butu tat doesnt means flight might be delayed, we know that uptoo 12 prototypes are under construction, so first flight will be definately this year...

now we know FC-1 even got more better

[Lulldapull]

" of course J-10 is a light aircraft while flankers are heavy type fighters, therefore certain aspects like combat radius, payload, radar range, etc will be superior for the flankers "

Believe me sir the flankers are their most advanced aircraft! Doesn't matter if the J-10 comes out or doesn't!   I personally believe ifthe chinese can make the J-10 airframe viable and "Flyable" and if it is manouevarable and agile, and somehow if they can put the Su-30's radar on it, then I say " god speed "! there can not be a better outcome than that. The problem is China is dependant on Russia for High tech, Not the other way round! i hope you understand that.

Also the basic specification for FC-1 is nearing obsolescence! Considering that 5th generation aircraft incorporating stealth/ Supercruise/ Smart Munitions and what not are already appearing on the scene, and FC-1 hasn't fukkan flown yet! (

Also unfortunately Chinese aircraft industry has had a tough time trying to modify or alter airframes to its own customised requirements and specifications! there are many examples the most notable was the attempt to make the Ye-23 "Flipper" a viable aircraft! it was a Russian technology demostrator and a reject! The chinese picked it up and tried so hard at making it into the F-8 "FinBack" and Boy was it a failure! then they recontoured the radome and tried incorporating the High Lark illegal copy into the nose, giving rise to the heavy un-wieldy F-8II! Another worthless aircraft, which was obsolete before it even flew!! As a matter of fact it was a desperate attempt to make an Su-15/ Mig-23 clone! it is a failure.

The Chinese have also repeatedly tried to do something with the Mig-21's shameful range! And tried to make it into something other than a point defence interceptor, and have again failed! Many a times.

What China is good at is reverse engineering Russian subjects! now here it has proved quite apt, as long as Russia provides the technical documentation, machinery/ castings and dye's and jigs and tooling etc!

So I advise everyone here to read up please. There are many good books out on he Chinese Military, I can list them if anyone is interested!

now the So called F-7MF is on the works, which is another Russian Reject! It is the old Ye-8 protoype with the forward Canards!

[troung]

" I even advocated inducting the Mirage F-1 (with the South African features of the upgrade such as the RD-33) & the electronics suite envisaged for the FC-1 (ie: Grifo S7 radar etc) & weapons systems."

That would be nice if the PAF had ALREADY had the Mirage F-1. And even that would not have much chance againist the Mirage 2000EH or MiG-29B/S.

[PhrozenFlame]

F-16 ke purzo ki baat horai hai, engine ki nahi! dus saal se f16s ko ghaseet rahe hai, kuch ko seekh hi liya hoga  B)

[platinum786]

Lets wait and see whats going to happen, afterall we shouldn't jump at every report in every tabloid.

I'm sure the people in charge of looking after our skys have some ideas, afterall they do get paid to do this sort of stuff.

I think it's probably a printing error anyway, inducted in 6 years time, 2009 thats ages away, induction would be finished by about 2011-12 by then we'd be facing PAK-FA in a few years time.


I'm pretty sure the report is bogus.

[Lulldapull]

To further illustrate my point, here are some examples, Although one can read some better texts that are out there like Chinese Military by jon Woods ( An illustrated history and future) and a few others like "The dragon's teeth" and Red dragon rising an Analysis of Chinese military threat perceptions. here are many nice books out there. Anyway there are for the common "your usual Online Google fukk":

Sorry about the chinese, but you get the point that Reverse engineering has worked, but the staright forward chhaapa is what China still excels in! even more so than Reverse engineering!

http://airkiller.myr...com/pla/j12.htm

http://airkiller.myrice.com/pla/j8.htm

http://airkiller.myr...com/pla/j82.htm

http://airkiller.myr...om/pla/j7mf.htm

if you are an aviation enthusiast, then you would instantly realize that these were all Russian failures! :ermm

[instantexcess]

Quote

What Will Pak Gain Through Fc1 Project?, personal opinions

Never Fear !!! Captain Obvious is Here :megalol

[realist]

Pakistan will be paying top dollars for 30 years old tech.
It will cost 15 million compared to MKI which will cost 20 Million. Firstly the MKI is far superior in every aspect, secondly the MKI will be made in India, which means that the money spent will roll in the economy.
But Pakistan has no choice. USA and Russia won't sell. France will only sell Rafael which is too expensive the same goes for Eurofighter. The Gripen has US tech, so it is out of question.
Hence Pakistan is left to purchase the Chinease scrap, which no modern airforce wants to have.

[KunLun]

mki is certainly more than 20 Millions each, realiststuff you should have update your data! mki are not made in India, but assemble only
(dont you really think Indian can made all mki by themself?       )


beside fc-1 's price of 15M$ each is yet only speculation

Quote

Hence Pakistan is left to purchase the Chinease scrap, which no modern airforce wants to have.

Well sorry to bring you back from your dream, but Pakistan is NOT a modern airforce , neither a modern and developped economy. it's like  if you wish to drive a Porsche with your 20 000$/yearly income, keep dreamming dear realist.  China is not santa claus SnatnaGaGaBaGa>

[UD2]

To: Everyone

ok... post changed...

it is a PS... I was wrong

[instantexcess]

OMG


its a photoshop and its been on the net since i duno when !

[American79]

I agree with Lulldapull,

Training & Induction takes time. Pakistan should have inducted these type of fighters 5 yrs ago.

By 2009-2015  ......This chinese fighter will be obsolete.

( As yall will see  JSF, Raptor, Ef-2000, Rafale, SU-37, Pak-Fa  being inducted in different airforces.)


Pakistan should take bold steps to induct SU-27s or Rafale.   There is no other way around.

[Rw #30]

salam to all muslims and chinese ppl
YOu indians are just jelous of Pakistani chinese realtions. cuz PAk has a allie and you dont. Remember when there was conflict going on when china had a US pilot and they conflict was on its peak wut was chinese PM doing in Pakistan when china and US were almost on hyper ends. if you understand english you will get wut was the meaning of chinese PM doing Pak
and stop being jelous if china is helping pak. may Allah bless muslims and chinese ppl. :SNIPER:

[rahul0072002]

Quote

mki are not made in India, but assemble only
(dont you really think Indian can made all mki by themself?    )

If you didn't know the MKI has some Indian parts, namely avionics (a few of them)

[richard]

KunLun, on Apr 21 2003, 03:56 PM, said:

mki is certainly more than 20 Millions each, realiststuff you should have update your data! mki are not made in India, but assemble only
(dont you really think Indian can made all mki by themself?       )


beside fc-1 's price of 15M$ each is yet only speculation

Quote

Hence Pakistan is left to purchase the Chinease scrap, which no modern airforce wants to have.

Well sorry to bring you back from your dream, but Pakistan is NOT a modern airforce , neither a modern and developped economy. it's like  if you wish to drive a Porsche with your 20 000$/yearly income, keep dreamming dear realist.  China is not santa claus SnatnaGaGaBaGa>

FYI, su-30mki will not just be assembled but completely manufactured in India! Infact if you go thru the contract, the clause says deep transfer of technology which means not just assembly but also there will be transfer of technology of all major components of the aircraft(and this includes the airframe, avionics and the engine, the three main things). Infact sometime last month, India started constructing the factory that would produce the engines for the aircraft. The first aircraft is scheduled to be manufactured in late 2004/early 2005

[Lulldapull]

American 79! most ppl here are a bunch of fukkan bufoons! ..they don't know shiit about much! So Whatever I have been saying its actually either being hated! or is being dimissed in a a bizzarre display of third world machoism or some jahil ass islamic bullshiit!

let these jahil fukko's believe that they can fight the world by hiding under a rock or shooting from a fukkan cave!    ...bunch of neanderthal ass A-raanbs!   

They still think the U.S. wil give them a few F-22's!  just for being All A-raanbd out!   

[KunLun]

richard, on Apr 21 2003, 07:03 PM, said:

FYI, su-30mki will not just be assembled but completely manufactured in India! Infact if you go thru the contract, the clause says deep transfer of technology which means not just assembly but also there will be transfer of technology of all major components of the aircraft(and this includes the airframe, avionics and the engine, the three main things). Infact sometime last month, India started constructing the factory that would produce the engines for the aircraft. The first aircraft is scheduled to be manufactured in late 2004/early 2005

Really? now That's very good for India! a great leap forward 4 them if success!

[Himanshu]

Su-30MKI from IAPO costs 33 mill..  where as the ones being made in India will come at 31..  Although India got Deep TOT for MKI production which includes ENGINE/RADAR.. basically everything.. not 100% would be sourced from Indian manufactures coz of the cost/benefit analysis.. some parts would come from Russia.. although would contribute very less in percentage terms in the overall ..


What PAF and most importantly Pakistan will benefit from FC-1..

1) PAF.. has been discussed like anything..
2) Pakistan Aeronautics

In the latter's case we need to clearly visualise the areas that it will direcly touch.. as to the design and fabrication capabilities.. What level of LOCAL contribution from Pakistan goes into the project.. right now the things are quite hazy.. ultimately.. the entire FC-1 platform SHOULD be manufactured in Pakistan although it will take time.. that way the local industry would benefit the most..

[WarCry]

To Lulldapull:

I know how bad is the chinese aviation tech used to be! In fact now its tech is still below those developed industries from europe, us and russia...

but u dun seem to understand the point i'm driving, u cannot compare F-15, SU-27, F-14 this kind of heavy fighters to those light fighters F-16, F-18... and J-10 belongs to the light fighter category...

one more thing is tt i am quite sure those flankers(excluding su30mkk) that china received are using outdated avionics and control system... while the J-10, due to its aerodynamic structure, it is most likely using a digital FBW... as for other things like glass cockpit, digital fuel management system, MFDs and more are rumored on the internet... and china have shown much of these tech on their airshow...

Quote

Doesn't matter if the J-10 comes out or doesn't!  I personally believe ifthe chinese can make the J-10 airframe viable and "Flyable" and if it is manouevarable and agile and somehow if they can put the Su-30's radar on it

and obviously u have not seen those pics of J-10 circulating around the net.... do u? they are already flying and its not once or twice... or one prototype or two... in fact there are reports tt the PLAAF have received something like 10 J-10s for final testing.... after tt production will begin i suppose...

there is no way to squeeze the su-27 radar on J-10, tts the advantage heavy fighters have when they can put larger radar in them, thus increasing the detection range... but tt does not necessary means tt its more advance... because the J-10 radar is not finalised yet so tt is subjective...

[dmaradona]

Dear Pakiskan friend,

     As a people from China, I just look on your forum before and I could really feel your best friendship to China.

      As to the F-10&Fc-1, I think it's really good to give you enough F-10 other than fc-1 regardless of the price. But as you could see, our army also need F-10 in great need though the price is still a little high to our country.

      Why we provide you FC-1 first, I think it's from the consideration that we could give the relative independent and affortable weapon to you first. the prototype of F-10 definitely used the engine and some other device from Russia which means up the cost much and the dangerness. So we have adjust such device with our domestic replacement.

     to Fc-1, maybe our army would take 500 or more finally as we have about 3000 f-6 to f-8 to be replaced. Su-27/Su-30/J-10, about 1000 is nearly high cost enough and we still need the low-grade flight.

     And before giving you F-10, we need solve some problem such as engine, radar,...  We need produce it ourselves or use our domestic device and do the improvement on this foundation. Then F-10 could be a effective system of indemnificatory and the price may be better based on the scale-production.

     At the price of Fc-1, it could be something to improve your ability of air defence now and when you get F-10, you still can use it as the force to do the mission of attacking ground.

     In the end, i want to see, no matter use Fc-1 or F-10, If the day comes when you need them to safeguard your country, China always be a reliable friend to help you and do what we could.

[loneboychina]

Fc-1

this is FC-1  

This is a real picture

[Hellraiser006]

http://www.pakdef.in...p?threadid=3962

Latest S-7 News
Good news on the S-7 front. According to a talk I had with PAC people in Islamabad on 20 April:

1. Two "flyable" prototypes of the S-7 have been rolled out. They are currently undergoing ground engine runs and systems checks.

2. Taxi runs of the S-7 will be done in May 2003.

3. First flight test is to be positively carried out in June 2003 - no delays are expected. Both prototypes will be flown - one by a Pakistani pilot and the other by a Chinese one. The PAF test pilot team is already in China.

4. S-7 production line will be established in Pakistan. Initially, the production line will be in China but a completely independent manufacturing unit will be established in Pakistan.

5. Pakistan will be indigenously manufacturing 50% of the S-7's components. The rest of the components, including the engine will be imported from China.

6. PLAAF will order the plane but Pakistan's position on the S-7 is unaffected by the position of the PLAAF. Even if it doesn't order the FC-1, Pakistan's plans will not be affected.

7. Denel Darter has been confirmed as the primary BVR weapon of the S-7 and a contract with Denel has already been signed.

8. RD-93 engine will be produced in China entirely. So there are no problems vis-a-vis the threat of sanctions. Russian attitudes can have no effect on the S-7. Nor is Russia saying it has a problem.

9. No Israeli component in the S-7 as some had alleged.

10. S-7 prototypes to fly in June 2003 will have fly-by-wire flight control systems.

11. PAF has not yet selected the avionics suite for the S-7 but it will be European. Maybe Italian or French.

12. S-7 will be wired to carry US, French, Chinese and South African armaments.

13. Ultimate objective is to manufacture the S-7 100% in Pakistan, including the engine.

14. Serial production of the S-7 is to commence after 2 years of testing, in 2005.

[Hellraiser006]

here's the whole thread from PakDef on the discussion of the FC-1.

Latest S-7 News
Good news on the S-7 front. According to a talk I had with PAC people in Islamabad on 20 April:

1. Two "flyable" prototypes of the S-7 have been rolled out. They are currently undergoing ground engine runs and systems checks.

2. Taxi runs of the S-7 will be done in May 2003.

3. First flight test is to be positively carried out in June 2003 - no delays are expected. Both prototypes will be flown - one by a Pakistani pilot and the other by a Chinese one. The PAF test pilot team is already in China.

4. S-7 production line will be established in Pakistan. Initially, the production line will be in China but a completely independent manufacturing unit will be established in Pakistan.

5. Pakistan will be indigenously manufacturing 50% of the S-7's components. The rest of the components, including the engine will be imported from China.

6. PLAAF will order the plane but Pakistan's position on the S-7 is unaffected by the position of the PLAAF. Even if it doesn't order the FC-1, Pakistan's plans will not be affected.

7. Denel Darter has been confirmed as the primary BVR weapon of the S-7 and a contract with Denel has already been signed.

8. RD-93 engine will be produced in China entirely. So there are no problems vis-a-vis the threat of sanctions. Russian attitudes can have no effect on the S-7. Nor is Russia saying it has a problem.

9. No Israeli component in the S-7 as some had alleged.

10. S-7 prototypes to fly in June 2003 will have fly-by-wire flight control systems.

11. PAF has not yet selected the avionics suite for the S-7 but it will be European. Maybe Italian or French.

12. S-7 will be wired to carry US, French, Chinese and South African armaments.

13. Ultimate objective is to manufacture the S-7 100% in Pakistan, including the engine.

14. Serial production of the S-7 is to commence after 2 years of testing, in 2005.


__________________
R.M.S. Azam


Last edited by RMS Azam on 04-20-2003 at 09:07 PM



04-20-2003 09:04 PM          


  
Aziz
Member

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 471
Fantastic News.

I take it that the FBW will be analogue?

I hope we go for an Italian avionics suite - they seem to be more keen on ToT.

Do you know if the Darter Deal is a joint development deal?

Aziz


__________________
"Any incursion by Indian forces across the Line of Control, even by an inch, will unleash a storm that will sweep the enemy,"
General Pervez Musharraf, President of Pakistan addressing PAF pilots.





04-20-2003 09:26 PM          


  
Ahmed M
Member

Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
Posts: 106
  Re: Latest S-7 News
6. PLAAF will order the plane but Pakistan's position on the S-7 is unaffected by the position of the PLAAF. Even if it doesn't order the FC-1, Pakistan's plans will not be affected.

That is good news.

7. Denel Darter has been confirmed as the primary BVR weapon of the S-7 and a contract with Denel has already been signed.

Good news indeed!

8. RD-93 engine will be produced in China entirely. So there are no problems vis-a-vis the threat of sanctions. Russian attitudes can have no effect on the S-7. Nor is Russia saying it has a problem.

Another good news.

10. S-7 prototypes to fly in June 2003 will have fly-by-wire flight control systems.

Also positive news.

11. PAF has not yet selected the avionics suite for the S-7 but it will be European. Maybe Italian or French.

one reason for delays! Well, hope for the best anyway.

13. Ultimate objective is to manufacture the S-7 100% in Pakistan, including the engine.
Best decision made. May take some time but will be worth it.

14. Serial production of the S-7 is to commence after 2 years of testing, in 2005.

That is more along the lines of my expectations than what we saw in another thread.

Thanks for the latest information RMS Azam.


Last edited by Ahmed M on 04-20-2003 at 09:43 PM



04-20-2003 09:40 PM          


  
Pervaiz_K
Expatriate Patriot!

Registered: Jun 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 280
This is good news!

Azam,

Thanks for the info. Where will the flight tests be held in June? China or Pakistan?





04-20-2003 09:49 PM          


  
Behjat
PAKMUSLIM

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: CT (Originally from Karachi)
Posts: 480
Salaam,

FANTASTIC NEWS. I'll be in Pakistan in June, insha'Allah. Where will the party be...? I'm serious. just PM me and I'll be there. Maybe we can have a Pakdef meet...


__________________
Wsalaam,

Dr. Behjat H. Syed
______________________________
"India's George Fernandez is like an unguided missle that occasionally becomes ballistic"--Ikram Sehgal, PTV News Night, Jan. 9, 2003





04-20-2003 10:45 PM            


  
tahir_lone
Junior Member

Registered: Dec 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 39
Excellent News... A couple of questions about the choice of BVR missile, I was under the assumption that the PAF would select the chinese SD-10 as it's range is greater than the R-77 which it is based on and also the SD-10 is ready for export... so why has the PAF decided to go for the Darter deal as it will entail a R & D and testing stages that will delay it bringing into service which we cannot afford in light of the huge conventional gap between our airforces?

Has anyone got any facts about the Darter missiles which Pakistan may develop with Denel, performance, technology planned to be used etc etc?


__________________
"It [Kashmir] belongs to the Kashmiri people. When Kashmir acceded to India, we made it clear to the leaders of the Kashmiri people that we would ultimately abide by the verdict of their Plebiscite. If they tell us to walk out, I would have no hesitation in quitting. We have taken the issue to United Nations and given our word of honour for a peaceful solution. As a great nation we cannot go back on it. We have left the question for final solution to the people of Kashmir and we are determined to abide by their decision."

PM Nehru (1952)





04-20-2003 11:20 PM          


  
saadahmed
Junior Member

Registered: Sep 2002
Location:
Posts: 69

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7. Denel Darter has been confirmed as the primary BVR weapon of the S-7 and a contract with Denel has already been signed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




Both Darter and Tartar ( us sam) deals have already been signed or very close to being signed !

not to mention that I told u guys about this long time ago !


__________________
Pakistan ZINDABAD





04-20-2003 11:21 PM          


  
Rafaqat
Senior Member

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Sialkot
Posts: 543

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Behjat
Salaam,

FANTASTIC NEWS. I'll be in Pakistan in June, insha'Allah. Where will the party be...? I'm serious. just PM me and I'll be there. Maybe we can have a Pakdef meet...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I hope that it'll be a better show than UK


__________________
Mullah ko jo hai Hind main sajdey ki ijazat,

Nadan ye samjhta hai kay Islam hai azaad

(Dr. Allama Iqbal)





04-21-2003 12:48 AM          


  
Asim
Junior Member

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: London
Posts: 37
Both Darter and Tartar ( us sam) deals have already been signed or very close to being signed


Any details about this?? I thought this was an old sam.





04-21-2003 01:58 AM          


  
H Khan
Senior Member

Registered: Nov 2001
Location:
Posts: 2517
check this link: http://www.kentron.c...p?Type=Airtoair

and more comprehensive: http://www.kentron.c...p?Type=Products


There is a romour or to a some extent fact that PAF upgraded Mirages with Grifo-M have been equipped to carry U-Darter and R-Darter. This added to the reports that PAF's F-16 are locally upgraded would result in them capable to carry R-Darter which is same as IAI Darby BVRAAM in its looks and performace.


__________________
H Khan

To Him We Belong And To Him Shall We Return





04-21-2003 02:12 AM          


  
Sultan
Senior Member

Registered: Nov 2001
Location:
Posts: 1180

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S-7 will be wired to carry US, French, Chinese and South African armaments.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Apart from the MUPSOW, R Darter and U Darter it seems as if Denel is emerging as a major contractor for the S7 weaponry.

Another product the PAF may be interested in is the KPGM provided Denel is willing to provide a ToT of some sort for the kit. Apart from the Paveway and AS 30s has the AWC managed to develop an indigenous LGB kit? or does anybody know if it is in the works?

Does the PAF intend to equip the S7 with any other stand off weapon that is capable of greater range and greater payload (possible Chinese or even French i.e. Black Shaheen) than the MUPSOW which unless Im mistaken is the only weapon we have which is capable of long range surgical strikes?

Finally, if the R darter and U darter have been equipped with the F16 and Mirages along with the S7 do I take it that the PAF is looking at making the Darter series the main AAM for the PAF, eventually phasing out all other types?


__________________
“In times of conflict the soldier does not control the war, rather the war controls the soldier. Occasionally, in the midst of such chaos and insanity windows of opportunity appear open to exploitation. It is how the window of opportunity is exploited, by the soldier, that defines the battle.... a battle which upholds the fallacy of the soldier in control of the war” (Anonymous).


Last edited by Sultan on 04-21-2003 at 03:08 AM



04-21-2003 02:54 AM          


  
Sheikh
Shogun

Registered: Jun 2002
Location:
Posts: 338
Darter is a very capable missile! Especially since we are getting TOT (I think). But I don't think it will become our main AAM missile!

Because we have to rememeber that China is reverse engineering the Russian Archer missile, I think it is called P-11 or something. This missile is suppose to be an improvment over Archer which is already one of the best missiles in the world.

I might be saying the wrong name for the russian missile that is being copied.


__________________
My Blood may turn to water, and I may lose my tongue but every particle will shout forever that "Tu Hi Dildar Hai! Tu Hi Meera Pyar Hai! Sub Kuch Tuj Pay Korbhan Pakistan!”





04-21-2003 03:18 AM            


  
Usman Shabbir
Administrator

Registered: Nov 2001
Location:
Posts: 797
Re: Latest S-7 News

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by RMS Azam

3. First flight test is to be positively carried out in June 2003 - no delays are expected. Both prototypes will be flown - one by a Pakistani pilot and the other by a Chinese one. The PAF test pilot team is already in China.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



True, the PAF test team has been in China for couple of weeks now according to a PAF officer.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

7. Denel Darter has been confirmed as the primary BVR weapon of the S-7 and a contract with Denel has already been signed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



For BVR missile the options examined by PAF were Matra-BAe Mica, Chinese SD-10 and the Denel T-Darter, the latter of which AVM Hamid Khawaja, PAF Super-7 chief project director once described as "very impressive on paper" (Flight International 24 Feb 1999].

__________________
There is a special Providence in the fall of a sparrow, if it be now, "tis not to come, if it be not to come, it will be now; if it be now, yet it will come, the readiness is all. [Hamlet]





04-21-2003 09:45 AM          


  
Hasib
Member

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 133
Azam,
Thank you for sharing the good news with us. PAF has taken a prudent approach in developing the local manufacturing capabilities. Better be late than never.
Hasib





04-21-2003 01:11 PM            


  
RMS Azam
Senior Member

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Lahore/Islamabad
Posts: 506
The Darter is initially being bought "off the shelf". There is no ToT involved at this stage. I talked to a couple of AWC guys about this. They said the AWC's ultimate objective is to develop AAM capability but we simply don't have the technology or the technical skills to develop air-to-air missiles at this stage. They are doing research on AAMs at a very rudimentary stage. Before AWC thinks about BVR missiles, it has to acquire the capability of developing a simple infra-red homing SRAAM.


__________________
R.M.S. Azam


Last edited by RMS Azam on 04-21-2003 at 04:52 PM



04-21-2003 04:50 PM          


  
RMS Azam
Senior Member

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Lahore/Islamabad
Posts: 506

quote:
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Originally posted by H Khan
There is a romour or to a some extent fact that PAF upgraded Mirages with Grifo-M have been equipped to carry U-Darter and R-Darter. This added to the reports that PAF's F-16 are locally upgraded would result in them capable to carry R-Darter which is same as IAI Darby BVRAAM in its looks and performace.
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PAF has selected the Denel Kentron T-Darter active radar guided missile with a range of 50+ km, to the best of my knowledge. The missile has the capability to be fed with updated info regarding the vectors, speed, altitude of the target while it is in midflight. It can even switch targets after being launched. Thus, the pilot can prioritize the target and if the priority changes after launch, the missile can be redirected to the most important priority target. Of course, the closer the missile gets to its initial target the smaller the envelope gets for the pilot to successfully re-direct the missile onto some other target. Thus, at 40 km, the pilot would have a wider range of targets to switch the missile onto, however if the missile is only 10 km away, then of course, only an alternative target in the vicinity of the previous one can be selected.

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R.M.S. Azam


Last edited by RMS Azam on 04-21-2003 at 05:21 PM



04-21-2003 05:01 PM          


  
syed saad
Member

Registered: Sep 2002
Location:
Posts: 283
  
The Kentron site only lists A, R and U darter.
http://www.kentron.c...p?Type=Airtoair

Where is the info on T-Darter? What are the exact specs? There is also a mention of Pakistan incorporating A-Darter (however it seems like this AAM is still in development) at the following site:

http://babriet.tripo...les/art_fc1.htm





04-21-2003 06:21 PM        


  
Shoaib
junior moderator

Registered: Nov 2001
Location:
Posts: 590

quote:
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Originally posted by RMS Azam
The Darter is initially being bought "off the shelf". There is no ToT involved at this stage. I talked to a couple of AWC guys about this. They said the AWC's ultimate objective is to develop AAM capability but we simply don't have the technology or the technical skills to develop air-to-air missiles at this stage. They are doing research on AAMs at a very rudimentary stage. Before AWC thinks about BVR missiles, it has to acquire the capability of developing a simple infra-red homing SRAAM.
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Wasnt there some work on a AAM back in Zia's time? If memory serves me right the project was shut down because of US pressure ...


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Shoaib

Life's no life when honour's left
Man's a man when honour's kept
Nation's honour and nation's fame -
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With thoughts of these I do remain
Unvexed with cares of loss or gain.

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04-21-2003 07:20 PM          


  
osman
Senior Member

Registered: Nov 2001
Location:
Posts: 561
Back in 1989 i remember reading in the Dawn about a test of an air to air heat seeking missile built by some defence org of Pakistan carried out by an F16. They targeted a hot air balloon and the test was said to be a success. Never heard again about it





04-21-2003 07:48 PM          


  
uazim
Senior Member

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: Everett
Posts: 573

quote:
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Originally posted by osman
Back in 1989 i remember reading in the Dawn about a test of an air to air heat seeking missile built by some defence org of Pakistan carried out by an F16. They targeted a hot air balloon and the test was said to be a success. Never heard again about it
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Organization was Precision Engineering and less said about that "missile" is better. It would be like washing the dirty laundry in public.


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UA


O our Lord, pour patience down on us, and make our foothold firm, and help us against the disbelieving people. ( AL BAQARAH: 250)





04-21-2003 08:21 PM          


  
osman
Senior Member

Registered: Nov 2001
Location:
Posts: 561

quote:
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Originally posted by uazim


Organization was Precision Engineering and less said about that "missile" is better. It would be like washing the dirty laundry in public.
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Now i am really curious





04-21-2003 08:34 PM          


  
tahir_lone
Junior Member

Registered: Dec 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 39
  

quote:
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For BVR missile the options examined by PAF were Matra-BAe Mica, Chinese SD-10 and the Denel T-Darter, the latter of which AVM Hamid Khawaja, PAF Super-7 chief project director once described as "very impressive on paper" (Flight International 24 Feb 1999].
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You damn right the Denel T-Darter looks good!

U-Darter IR 0.3-10? 2? 89? 275/16/66 Like Darter, but with
cruciform tandem control surfaces. Turns at 55G, off boresight
capability up to 56 deg. In service (1997)

A-Darter IIR
Reported to have a peak manoeuvrability of 100G.
The A-Darter uses both tail control and thrust vectoring. Full scale development has not begun (1997). Guided flight tests to start (1999).

V4 R-Darter AR Entered service
around 1995, has at least two launch modes with lock on before
or after launch. Probably shares some technology with Derby.

S-Darter/LRAAM ramjet powered, in development

T-Darter AR /50+ Air breathing, mid-course datalink.
Probably an SAHV-3 development.
Offered to Pakistan (1999).

http://www.canit.se/...ssiles/aam.html


__________________
"It [Kashmir] belongs to the Kashmiri people. When Kashmir acceded to India, we made it clear to the leaders of the Kashmiri people that we would ultimately abide by the verdict of their Plebiscite. If they tell us to walk out, I would have no hesitation in quitting. We have taken the issue to United Nations and given our word of honour for a peaceful solution. As a great nation we cannot go back on it. We have left the question for final solution to the people of Kashmir and we are determined to abide by their decision."

PM Nehru (1952)

[jaan baz]

rahul0072002, on Apr 21 2003, 06:55 PM, said:

Quote

mki are not made in India, but assemble only
(dont you really think Indian can made all mki by themself?    )

If you didn't know the MKI has some Indian parts, namely avionics (a few of them)

   [FONT=Arial][SIZE=7][COLOR=blue][B] hi people this is my first posting here.i have read many posting here about every topic and i have found very poor information is spreading in all postings.
   here i would only give you some main and effective information about all the topics.
  AIR FORCE:
                about super seven i would say tht it has 18000m ceiling,3900kg of weapons load.
                about j-10 it is more manuverable then su30mki except currently it doesnt have higher range radars nothing else is less then the su30mki or mkk.
               about adopting super seven or j-10 the reason of adopting super seven is it is advance and the main reason is tht we have funded this project $150million.never the less it is advance in agility and in radar as well in terms of its class of light weight fighter.the weight of super seven empty:around 6350kg and the thrust is :18400kg something like this.F-16 weight is around 9500kg and thrust is :27000kg. if you dive the weight with thrust you will get something.
     for super seven > 18400/6350=2.897kg
     for F-16              > 27000/9500=2.842kg
   through i hope intellegent and educated people can calculate the ratio between weight and the thrust.here lots of peoples bark about inferior engine capability of super seven.
         super seven will be the equal to the F-16 in agilty as compared to the ration between thrust and weight,except the aerodynamics.
         if we configured super seven more air superiority mission the weapons loas will be not more then 600kg this will give excellegnt manuverabilty to the super seven as compared with the F-16 in full load.

my name is salman.

[muaest]

FC-1 is necessary coz it will be a foundation for our fighter aerospace industry.Secondly when we are talking that no one will sell the aircrafts then this is only choice left.I am not saying do not purchase other aircrafts.Always search for other too, but what will we get, who will give us the parts for ukaranian su27???

If we can get some other place than its very good too, but i will never suggest leaving FC-1.Keep it going.Inshalla i will fly..

[gatling]

The CAC said ,now FC-1 prototype is in the first assemble period. The company had declared immutable first flight date, 30th Jun.
¡¡

[platinum786]

Please everyone pray it's a french avionics suite, they are much superior to the Grifo 7 etc, we may end up with the electronics and radar in the Rafale or the Mirage 2000......so pray.........

[platinum786]

finally a date!!!!!!!!  YES!!!!

[Hellraiser006]

Quote

Please everyone pray it's a french avionics suite, they are much superior to the Grifo 7 etc, we may end up with the electronics and radar in the Rafale or the Mirage 2000......so pray.........

it probably will be the French suite. however, we won't have to wait long now. all the signs are that the first flight tests will definitely take place in June and the FC-1 seems like it will be one kick-ass plane! :)Clp

also it seems like Pakistan wants to go for a complete production of the plane including the engine. so i guess whatever suite we get there will have to be transfers of technology as well.

[muaest]

Hey i am so happppy
The real goal should be to acquire complete production in pakista including engine and avaionics.........

[Hellraiser006]

Quote

The real goal should be to acquire complete production in pakista including engine and avaionics.........

if you go to the original post up top, thats exactly one of the main aims- ie complete 100% production of the aircraft including avionics and engine.

[Eagle]

Which engine does FC-1 uses ?

[Hellraiser006]

Quote

Which engine does FC-1 uses ?

RD-93.

its in the original post.

[WarCry]

Lulldapull, on Apr 21 2003, 02:27 PM, said:

" of course J-10 is a light aircraft while flankers are heavy type fighters, therefore certain aspects like combat radius, payload, radar range, etc will be superior for the flankers "

Believe me sir the flankers are their most advanced aircraft! Doesn't matter if the J-10 comes out or doesn't!   I personally believe ifthe chinese can make the J-10 airframe viable and "Flyable" and if it is manouevarable and agile, and somehow if they can put the Su-30's radar on it, then I say " god speed "! there can not be a better outcome than that. The problem is China is dependant on Russia for High tech, Not the other way round! i hope you understand that.

Also the basic specification for FC-1 is nearing obsolescence! Considering that 5th generation aircraft incorporating stealth/ Supercruise/ Smart Munitions and what not are already appearing on the scene, and FC-1 hasn't fukkan flown yet! (

Also unfortunately Chinese aircraft industry has had a tough time trying to modify or alter airframes to its own customised requirements and specifications! there are many examples the most notable was the attempt to make the Ye-23 "Flipper" a viable aircraft! it was a Russian technology demostrator and a reject! The chinese picked it up and tried so hard at making it into the F-8 "FinBack" and Boy was it a failure! then they recontoured the radome and tried incorporating the High Lark illegal copy into the nose, giving rise to the heavy un-wieldy F-8II! Another worthless aircraft, which was obsolete before it even flew!! As a matter of fact it was a desperate attempt to make an Su-15/ Mig-23 clone! it is a failure.

The Chinese have also repeatedly tried to do something with the Mig-21's shameful range! And tried to make it into something other than a point defence interceptor, and have again failed! Many a times.

What China is good at is reverse engineering Russian subjects! now here it has proved quite apt, as long as Russia provides the technical documentation, machinery/ castings and dye's and jigs and tooling etc!

So I advise everyone here to read up please. There are many good books out on he Chinese Military, I can list them if anyone is interested!

now the So called F-7MF is on the works, which is another Russian Reject! It is the old Ye-8 protoype with the forward Canards!

i have done some searching of information on the J-8 and J-8II, and i found out tt J-8 is actually an enlarged version J-7/mig-21 and incorporating 2 engines... i have not yet found anything like wat u said tt its a Ye-23 tech demonstrator of the russians...

as for J-8II, it does bear similarities to Su-15, but it is most likely an airframe upgrade of J-8 to incoporate a larger radar... as the chinese do not have any tech transfer from the russians since 1960 after they fall out with the soviet union.... if u studied their history u will know tt!

so ur claims bout these planes as reverse engineered products are not accurate... but i do agree tt they are obsolete in many ways even before induction into the PLAAF...

Quote

now the So called F-7MF is on the works, which is another Russian Reject! It is the old Ye-8 protoype with the forward Canards!

can u provide links bout this one... i would really like to know...

as for the later variants of J-7, its an attempt to upgrade an obsolete airframe design with new features so as to prolong their service life and increase their combat effectiveness, sadly speaking the chinese have to resort to these upgrades mainly due to tech inferiority and funding problems tt they used to face...

[Eagle]

Hellraiser006, on Apr 22 2003, 04:45 AM, said:

RD-93.

its in the original post.

Does China has deep license to manufacture this engine ?  ..... or do they plan to buy it directly from Russia, "off-the-shelf" ?

[Himanshu]

June.. hmm.. that will be interesting..

I am eagerly waiting for some images to come.. on net.. hope that they won't censor the images

[PhrozenFlame]

to be frank... RD-93 sucks..if go for French Avionics + Engine, this plane cud make to 4rth Generation...

[PhrozenFlame]

Source Plz... and if its confirmed..guys plz dont stop me from dissing indians that FC-1 wud never take-off....some score needs to be settles...paybacks's  a  b i  t c h  after all  B)   ..its a special request to mods..im so happy... :)Clp