110 replies to this topic

[Mangla]

Do you understand the concept of stable supply lines? The potency of the army is decided by mobility and the availability of supplies. Once your supply lines are overextended or interdicted the army is as good as finished. China's better tanks and artillery isn't going to help them across the Himalayas. Its as absurd as tanks fighting at Kargil. So an armoured thrust is out. The only viable alternative is through Burma. To do that you need to first convince the Burmese junta(they'll be in trouble if the offensive fails). And second problem again is overextended supply lines.

I was using tanks as an example!

Supply lines are the great unknown until war occurs. The Chinese learnt alot from Vietnam experience thus are more prepared. I am certain a senior Indian official or military man admitted Chinese infastructure is better on the their border. I am unsure about about the feasability of crossing the Himalayas but Arunachal Pradesh mountains are less difficult to pass then western Himalayas. There are transit points that can be taken by light armor, which China has. Once captured these passes heavy armor can be brought.


Any war will certainly be fought on Indian soil because Indias capacity to traverse the mountains is even more limited. Indian army is facing the western border. China has freedom to commit all forces who they got to fear from others taking advantage of situation. Just admit India is at the mercy of the dragon.

Just been reading Indian amy inventory. Diverse sources of precurment. Only thing I am impressed about is the diverse vocabulary Indians have because you do use unnecessarily grandoise language to detail systems. Semantics do not translate into capability.

[xFalvira]

China and India ain't going to any war anytime soon. period

[Mangla]

China and India ain't going to any war anytime soon. period

Unresolved Border dispute.

Provided support and refugee for Dali Lama.

Supported USSR against China and now courting US and Nato to encircle them. Also support BMD.

Belittling China for not being a democracy.

Arguing own democracy is "superior" despite being poorer and weaker.

Strategic competators

Future unknown. Who would have predicted despite border dispute China has decided to seek friendlier ties since 1990s.  

List goes on.

Against

Trade

??

[Ganja]

China and India ain't going to any war anytime soon. period

Day 1 of the war. A huge military contingent of Chinese Army backed by Tanks and Aircrafts busts  thru north east india while also sending a similar contingent thru sikkhim as well as thru Ladakh.Assam and parts of north india bordering China change flags. The bombing of Indian Airports / Airfields /Military Installations has begun in full swing. Special planes are dispatched to neutralize missile silos and Anti Missile and Anti Aircraft sites.The nuclear complexes are spared damage while leaflets are dropped warning india to surrender or have its nuclear installations taken critical enmasse.
  Pakistan being already made aware of this plan and with its entire army backed by mujaheddein already lined up  near the kashmir punjab and Sindh borders all the way to Gujarat of india starts putting tremendous stress on the entire indian Army troop formation. The weak PM of india caught completely by surprise sends a special envoy on an overnight flight to the UN to complain to the world body. The P5 are locked in a heated dispute in closed doors due to Chinas full inclination to veto any india supporting resolution.

what happens next?

[namec]

I was using tanks as an example!

There are transit points that can be taken by light armor, which China has. Once captured these passes heavy armor can be brought.

Yet you in this same post have said transit points can be taken with light armor and held till heavy armor arrives. The operating philosophy behind armored attacks is force, mobility and bulk. The latter two are effectively neutralised in this terrain. Armored divisions move with mechanised infantry regiments, armored regiments, engineering support regiments and supply and ordnance units. All this in the narrow winded passes in those Himalayan heights. They'll be sitting ducks.

Supply lines are the great unknown until war occurs.  I am certain a senior Indian official or military man admitted Chinese infastructure is better on the their border. I am unsure about about the feasability of crossing the Himalayas but Arunachal Pradesh mountains are less difficult to pass then western Himalayas.

Most routes of ingress are over 5000 ft. high and often over 10000ft. After so many years China has finally built a railway line to Lhasa. That doesn't mean all of a sudden Tibet has become a hospitable area. Yes, the condition of roads and infrastructure is better on the Chinese side, but the distance to central China is huge as well. Sustaining an offensive from bases in Tibet is simply not feasible.

The Chinese learnt alot from Vietnam experience thus are more prepared.

That was 30 years back. There'd barely be a handful of veterans from that time. In fact, India with its lessons from Kargil is in a better position with regard to experience.

Any war will certainly be fought on Indian soil because Indias capacity to traverse the mountains is even more limited.

Accepted. India is in no position to strike Tibet either. But, on Indian soil, defending forces will take much lower(relatively) losses in a war of attrition.

Indian army is facing the western border.

India has eight division in the North East I believe. And plenty of reserves to move up in case the Chinese start a buildup.

China has freedom to commit all forces who they got to fear from others taking advantage of situation.

What happens if Taiwan decides to rewrite their constitution while China is busy with its adventures? What if the US decides some affirmative action is required to stabilise the region?

Just admit India is at the mercy of the dragon.

Just because it'll be a dream come true for Pakistan doesn't mean its actually going to happen.

Just been reading Indian amy inventory. Diverse sources of precurment. Only thing I am impressed about is the diverse vocabulary Indians have because you do use unnecessarily grandoise language to detail systems. Semantics do not translate into capability.

Where are you reading from?

[namec]

Unresolved Border dispute.

That's about national pride rather than the actual strategic or economic valuation of the land in question.

Provided support and refugee for Dali Lama.

Curbed any militant uprising by refugee Tibetans.

Supported USSR against China and now courting US and Nato to encircle them. Also support BMD.

India and a dozen other countries. Attacking India will encourage India to join such informal alliances.

Belittling China for not being a democracy.

Not any more than rest of the world.

Arguing own democracy is "superior" despite being poorer and weaker. Strategic competators

Hurt feelings? Come on. We're talking about two huge nations with a mature leadership here. These reasons aren't something they'll go to war over.

Future unknown. Who would have predicted despite border dispute China has decided to seek friendlier ties since 1990s.

And India had nothing to do with the friendlier ties? The process of rapproachment was initiated by Rajiv Gandhi.  

List goes on.

???

Against

Trade

??

And the fact that both nations will pay an economic, and military price for it.

And that the international community from Russia and the US to the EU and South East and East Asia will oppose any war.

[namec]

Day 1 of the war. A huge military contingent of Chinese Army backed by Tanks and Aircrafts busts  thru north east india while also sending a similar contingent thru sikkhim as well as thru Ladakh.

Busts through the Himalayas? Like blows a big hole in it or something?

The bombing of Indian Airports / Airfields /Military Installations has begun in full swing.

From a handful of airbases?

Special planes are dispatched to neutralize missile silos and Anti Missile and Anti Aircraft sites.

Ahhh.... special planes. What's special about them?

The nuclear complexes are spared damage while leaflets are dropped warning india to surrender or have its nuclear installations taken critical enmasse.

This isn't Israel thumping some neighboring country. The Indian military is not going to be taking a vacation.

Pakistan being already made aware of this plan and with its entire army backed by mujaheddein already lined up  near the kashmir punjab and Sindh borders all the way to Gujarat of india starts putting tremendous stress on the entire indian Army troop formation.

And the US sends three CBGs into the Arabian Sea, Bay of Bengal and South China Sea.

The weak PM of india caught completely by surprise sends a special envoy on an overnight flight to the UN to complain to the world body.

You wish.

The P5 are locked in a heated dispute in closed doors due to Chinas full inclination to veto any india supporting resolution.

Since, when has the US required UN approval.

[el nino]

India & China will conduct joint air force excercises soon.

They have already conducted land based operations.

Chinease miliart observers watched india army excercise by 40,000 troops ON INDO PAK border last week along with 59 other countries.

Indo china trade is currently worh $36billion will rise to a staggering $100 billion in ten years in mutual trade...

Both these countries are after economic power not military conflict.

The world has changed we all need to look around and see wat is happening in their neighbourhood..

[Mangla]

I love how the Indians bring the US into the conflict. If China is our dream then US is yours. Atleast it is more dependable. China has ICBMs to deter the US. Is there some secret agreement you know know off.

Was I talking about Tibet. Neverless mountain warfare troops are there.

I was talking about AP. Once Infantry and light armor camp take transit points heavy armor will stream through.  AP is not as mountainous as western or central Himalyas.

U know we are talking theory here, thus are speculating. If you think conversion is immature fine then be the "bigger man" and leave.

Why dont you speculate Indian military movement into China or are they gonna stay largely on defensive with offensive after blunted PRC attack? My reference to vietnam war was regarding the experience they recieved from finding out their own logistics was poor.

[aziqbal]

This thread is a joke, in 1962 Indian soldiers was marched Naked on Himalayas and now Indians think they can on world superpower China. Another wet dream.

Pakistan can take Dehli inside 24 hours I think China can do it in maybe 12 hours together we can do it in few hours maybe even quicker.

[Alkhalid-19]

NO No we need  3-4 Weeks !

[ZJoseph]

This thread is a joke, in 1962 Indian soldiers was marched Naked on Himalayas and now Indians think they can on world superpower China. Another wet dream.

Pakistan can take Dehli inside 24 hours I think China can do it in maybe 12 hours together we can do it in few hours maybe even quicker.

ameen.

if take 24 hours for us to take dehli back then it will take 4 hours for china. because they are 4 times more powerful than pakistan. it will take 12 hours for our limited number f-16 and jf-17 to destroy indian su-30 ,mig-21 and mirage-2000 but it will take only one hours by plaaf.    

[namec]

I love how the Indians bring the US into the conflict. If China is our dream then US is yours. Atleast it is more dependable. China has ICBMs to deter the US. Is there some secret agreement you know know off.

I only brought in the US when some fellow started talking about Pakistan and China launching a joint attack on India.

Was I talking about Tibet. Neverless mountain warfare troops are there.

The region to the north of AP is commonly known as Tibet. What the heck were you thinking?

I was talking about AP. Once Infantry and light armor camp take transit points heavy armor will stream through.  AP is not as mountainous as western or central Himalyas.

And repeat once more, armored units cannot operate in hilly terrain let alone mountainous terrain.

U know we are talking theory here, thus are speculating. If you think conversion is immature fine then be the "bigger man" and leave.

By all means, lets speculate further.

Why dont you speculate Indian military movement into China or are they gonna stay largely on defensive with offensive after blunted PRC attack?

Absolutely. Entering Chinese territory with the aim of holding it will be sheer foolishness. Discretion is the better part of valour.

My reference to vietnam war was regarding the experience they recieved from finding out their own logistics was poor.

I didn't bring up logistics with respect to the quality of the Chinese military. In the same place every army will suffer huge logistic difficulties.

[el nino]

  It is a joke thread and pointless i believe

[Gundy]

to the indian dude called zimo who brought this 6 years old thread back from the pit:

        GET A LIFE GOSH!

[ZJoseph]

the pic below shows some indian soldiers (note the flag), with some other country's soldiers, are they chinese??? i do not think pla and indian army ever had a joint military exercise!!! if they had, that would be bad for sinopak friendship. but i think they soldiers are from vietnam but the camo lokks like PLA....

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1781/ku...89710bh4tf4.jpg

[xFalvira]

A huge military contingent of Chinese Army backed by Tanks

tanks in the eastern himalayas O-o............believe me u can't get tanks into NE india via arunachal

[xFalvira]

PLA and IA had a joint exercise last year

Indo-Chinese joint military exercise begins
KUNMING (CHINA), DEC 21 (Agencies): Troops of India and China today kick-started their first-ever joint military exercise with focus on anti-terrorism drill in southwest China, taking the ties between the world's two largest armies to a new high.
The hoisting of national flags of both the countries to the national anthems played by the People's Liberation Army (PLA) band and march past marked the opening ceremony of the five-day drill began at the Kunming Military Academy in Yunnan province in an air of expectancy from both sides.
The exercise, titled "Hand-in-Hand 2007" reflecting warmer military ties, got off to the start with Chinese soldiers demonstrating skills in "Hard Qigong" martial arts, including self-defence actions.
This was followed by manoeuvres showing the capabilities of PLA soldiers to strike at the enemy overcoming obstacles including exploding bombs and grenades hitting at the target shooting at short intervals.
Seated on stage, the Indian troops drawn from the Jammu and Kashmir Light Infantry watched with keen interest every action of the Chinese soldiers and clapped in appreciation after the end of each manoeuvre.
At the opening ceremony, Brig. D S Dadwal, head of the Directing Staff, said the joint Sino-Indian military exercise was "another step" to deepen the understanding and cooperation between the two armies.
He said development of military-to-military relations was an integral part of the overall improvement of bilateral relations as he noted "lot of positive developments" including the signing of a Memorandum of Understanding on defence cooperation which had led to the exercise as its "logical outcome".
Col Y K Joshi, the defence attache in the Indian Embassy in Beijing, said the joint exercise were a "big step forward" in defence relations between the two countries.
"We will learn from each other so that we are able to operate together should there be a requirement. For inter- operability".
The first joint exercise by the two armies comes as a sign of warming of ties between the two Asian giants, 45 years after they fought a brief war in 1962.
The exercise was scheduled to happen much earlier but the dates were finalized during the first Annual Defence Dialogue between the two nations in Beijing in November.
India and China had held the first joint naval exercise in November 2003 off Shanghai on China's eastern seaboard which has continued since then with two ships of the Indian Navy making port calls at Qingdao and taking part in a joint exercise with the PLA Navy earlier this year.
The two armies have been holding bonhomie meetings on the border and inviting observers to each other's exercises but the joint drill is being held for the first time, upgrading the military ties. Indian contingent consists of 103 troops and the Chinese side an almost equal number.

[classic82]

PLA and IA had a joint exercise last year

I am sarcastic to comment on this which is completely unecessary to do at the first place, but please excuse it just a fun poking comment:

I think the only reason why Pakistan is not taking its 12 hour Rd to Delhi is because Mushy wants to give peace a chance. The day he sees that CBM leads no where he would say lets get to Delhi rather than take Kashmir alone.

On a serious note, I guess thats when we would see again a unified South Asia. Ameen....do I have a issue with it...NO...

ZJoseph u r always welcome, wether or not PA decides on its 12 Hrs of trek...come lets have fun...Prosperity and peace be upon us.

[classic82]

I am sarcastic to comment on this which is completely unecessary to do at the first place, but please excuse it just a fun poking comment:

I think the only reason why Pakistan is not taking its 12 hour Rd to Delhi is because Mushy wants to give peace a chance. The day he sees that CBM leads no where he would say lets get to Delhi rather than take Kashmir alone.

On a serious note, I guess thats when we would see again a unified South Asia. Ameen....do I have a issue with it...NO...

ZJoseph u r always welcome, wether or not PA decides on its 12 Hrs of trek...come lets have fun...Prosperity and peace be upon us.

Sorry, dont get me wrong, but the invitation is open to all the PDF members...just think rather than typing replies, if we all fanatics get together over some tea and samosa and talk it out...Also, India too has some very beautiful spots to visit.

[Mangla]

Last reply to Namec then out. I am trying to say Eastern Himalayas are not as rugged and tall then the western side. U right about Tibet I forgot about its size. Just read about eastern Himalayas bordering Arunachal Pradesh.

[namec]

I am trying to say Eastern Himalayas are not as rugged and tall then the western side.

I understand that and I agree. What I'm saying is armored vehicles(tracked ones) cannot operate even in the lower Himalayas.

Last reply to Namec then out.

Ciao.

[XxSilentViruzxX]

A war between two nuclear nations is not fought with tanks and fighters.
Infact, a direct war between two such nations is impossible.
The nuclear/ war buttons in every responsible nation are not controlled by 16 yr old arm-chair generals, but real life generals who have families.
Hence the need for proxies such as Tibet, Assam, Kashmir, and Uyghurs.

Examples can be found throughout history, Vietnam, Afghanistan etc.

By the way, if there ever were a war between China and India, and knowing the geography of the region, an armored attack by either of the nations would be impossible. And if they somehow managed such an attack, it would be suicide.
Burma/Mynamar could play a pivotal role in such a scenario.

[aziqbal]

If India attacks any naton in Asia China will nuke it back to the stone age, if there is ever a war between China and India Pakistan should jump in and land grab whole of Western India then China can take East India and together we can share our trophys of war.

[el nino]

  i,M SURE the miliary & Gov,t of both Pakistan & China have already laid out a FULL BATTLE PLAN to do this already.

  Now that Pakistan has JF17 & SAAB Awacs and PLAAF has SU30 & J10  its only a matter of time.........

[pluto]

If India attacks any naton in Asia China will nuke it back to the stone age, if there is ever a war between China and India Pakistan should jump in and land grab whole of Western India then China can take East India and together we can share our trophys of war.

If you can tell the date and time of war, before that we can prepare a trophy for you both.we will keep that trophy infront of  Taj hotel in Mumbai.Please don't forget to take it from there...

[OP1]

With the rapid expansion of trade between China and India, I simply don't see a war in the future. Nobody in this world would flush a source of cash down the toilet by waging a war.

[xFalvira]

If India attacks any naton in Asia China will nuke it back to the stone age, if there is ever a war between China and India Pakistan should jump in and land grab whole of Western India then China can take East India and together we can share our trophys of war.

didn't happened earlier....

[airomerix]

didn't happened earlier....

But it WILL happen if INDIA does something!

[kmc]

Those who talk about India vs China just look at the relations between US vs China, if you just take a look at what was the situation in 1990s you know the difference that is because of Chines economy, which played a important factor which is now determining the relations between both these nations.

Now nor China or India want war between them because both donot want to give US a foothold in Asia. If war like situation raises then there is Russian to cool that. Russia requires both India & China to counter US power, both China & India knows this, So they are working for a co-ordination between them (India, Russia, China).

I donot know about Pakistan's future, but I know that India & China will have bright future as a neighbours. Just day before yesterday I read interesting new in a national newspaper i.e., Dalai Lama has sent a representative to China to talk/negotiation, I think, you guys have might seen it.

[GreenBeret]

Now nor China or India want war between them because both donot want to give US a foothold in Asia. If war like situation raises then there is Russian to cool that. Russia requires both India & China to counter US power, both China & India knows this, So they are working for a co-ordination between them (India, Russia, China).

How do u explain that Russia needs India to counter US power?