113 replies to this topic

[rungroot]

It is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that when Muslim lands are attacked, jihad ia farz on all including women.  Even farz on children.  It is useless to argue this.  I invite anyone who disagrees to go to a mosque, ANY mosque and ask them that in a defensive war, when attacked, is it farz on women to fight for the Muslim lands?  Just see what they say.  And then, ask them for the proof ans evidence and then just see how fast they laugh you out.  It's like asking for proof of 2+2=4!,

[Skull-Buster]

rungroot, on 15 June 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

It is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that when Muslim lands are attacked, jihad ia farz on all including women.  Even farz on children.  It is useless to argue this.  I invite anyone who disagrees to go to a mosque, ANY mosque and ask them that in a defensive war, when attacked, is it farz on women to fight for the Muslim lands?  Just see what they say.  And then, ask them for the proof ans evidence and then just see how fast they laugh you out.  It's like asking for proof of 2+2=4!,

Its so hypocritical of you to say earlier in this thread that people blindly follow opinions of scholars rather than Allah and his Messenger PBUH, while you are completely ignoring the evidence directly from the life of the Prophet PBUH yourself.

Please answer me why did the Prophet PBUH keep all the women away from battle in the safety of a fort inside the city during the entire Ghazwa Khandaq. It was the MOST DEFENSIVE JIHAD during the Prophet's (PBUH) life, yet he MADE SURE THAT WOMEN ARE NOT PART OF IT.

[Skull-Buster]

rungroot, on 15 June 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

Again, I am SPECIFICALLY talking about defensive jihad.  Do NOT conveniently try to forget that.  There is NO questioning the fact that jihad, when attacked, is FARZ AL AYN ON ALL INCLUDING WOMEN.  This agreed upon by all schools of thought.  

I actually knew you would say that. I deliberately did not mention a piece of information in my earlier post containing the Ahadith to make a point.

The first Hadith about Umm Sulaym RA is actually talking about the battle of Uhud. The second Hadith of Umm Atiyah RA talks of her participating in seven battles, providing food and water and treating the injured. Those seven battles included the battle of Uhud.

Now please dont tell me Uhud was also an offensive war

[noxiouspython]

Aoa

You are right, in a war everyone has to contribute whatever is required of them to the war effort. As in the concept of total war. When you fight, you fight with everything you have got.

Soldiering is not the only job in a war.

There are a lot of other jobs that need doing.

Someone needs to build weapons and ammunition, manage finance, supply lines, food and rations, hospitals, training of new recruits, intelligence gathering, engineering and many many more things that are directly related to the war effort apart from soldiering.

As has been mentioned previously also, women did regularly participate in the war effort - however, they weren't involved as soldiers.

This does not mean they were not involved in the war as they did contribute to the war effort - however, anyone contributing to the war effort does not automatically become a soldier.

If during a war the enemy enters the base camp, everyone including the kitchen staff would try to defend themselves, so for instance if the chef picks up a sniper rifle and starts killing enemies with it, it wouldn't make him a sniper. Similarly, if women in the camp did actually put up a fight when the enemy entered the camp - it wouldn't make them soldiers. They would still be support staff acting out of necessity in that particular situation.

--

Coming to the issue of soldering and women - as brother Skullbuster mentioned - there is no report that I have come across of Rasul'Allah pbuh ever calling upon women to take the job of soldering in any war. Even in Khazwa e Khandak, which you would agree was as defensive as it gets, Rasul'Allah pbuh did not call on women to take up soldering.

It is known that, even in the most defensive and crucial battle where the very survival of the Muslim community was at stake and the enemy had attacked the city itself, the women were not called upon for soldiering. Unless we find some report that says otherwise, one has assume that no exceptions were made.

In fact, as mentioned previously, there is a clear narration about women and Jihad that says that women do not have to engage in Jihad. (‘Aa’ishah RA said: “O Messenger of Allaah, do women have to engage in jihad? He said: “Jihad in which there is no fighting: Hajj and ‘Umrah.” narrated by Ahmad (25361) and Ibn Maajah (2901); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Sunan Ibn Maajah.)

In fact, I have not heard of or read any narration that even states that Jihad is mustahabb for women, let alone one that states it is Fard/Wajib.


It is possible that I (and brother Busterbro) have missed some narration about soldiering being wajib or even mustahabb for women - that you may have come across. In which case, I would really like for you to share it.

I hope it made sense.

And Allah knows best.

w/salaam

[rungroot]

Skully,

Actually, YOU are being hyporcritical.  There is a reason why I brought all the schools of thought up, it is because of your OWN inclinations.  Because normally you are adamant about listening to and following the dictates of the ulema.  So what happened here???  Why the sudden u turn and a complete change of heart from regarding something that muttafiqaalayh???  Yet here, when ALL the ulema are on the same page that fight is farz e ayn on everyone including women and children when a Muslim land is under attack, you COMPLETELY ignore and sideline them here.  So are you NOT being a hyporcrite here???  Of course you are.  You are continuing to completely and utterly ignore everything the ulema here.  Do you honestly believe that the ahadith you quoted never crossed the eyes of all those ulema?  Do you think that they didn't make there fatwas based on the Quran and a whole bank of ahadith and that YOU, mister mufti e Azam soully, knows far far more than all those ulema combined and that YOU are some form of an authority on Islam while they are all NOTHING???  Wow, mufti Saab that is some u turn.   You even called the sheikh who was one of the most well respected ulema during the afghan soviet war and a mujahid and a martyr as merely "some guy" who means nothing.  Such shame.


So why don't just shoot from hips and try to hide your hypocrisy.  Nice attempt from you but it's not going to work.  

Okay just answer my one question.  Don't tell me anything else.  Just answer ONE question.  So ALL of the ulemas of the hanafi fiqh, Maliki fiqh, etc, are ALL wrong and committing a sin and you are right???

[butterfly]

blueazure, on 15 June 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

^^  just like saying ejecting from a jet cracks open a pilot's head when he hits the canopy ? now where did i hear mr Martin Baker designer say that on this forum ?


----------

back to the topic please,

Ok like a typical Pakistani....you are a doctor, and engineer a lawyer and an expert on everything. That's exactly why Pakistan is in a hole. Bythe way I worked at Martin Baker too.

[butterfly]

blueazure, on 15 June 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

^^  just like saying ejecting from a jet cracks open a pilot's head when he hits the canopy ? now where did i hear mr Martin Baker designer say that on this forum ?


----------

back to the topic please,

Ok like a typical Pakistani....you are a doctor, and engineer a lawyer and an expert on everything. That's exactly why Pakistan is in a hole. Bythe way I worked at Martin Baker too.

[blueazure]

butterfly, on 15 June 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

Ok like a typical Pakistani....you are a doctor, and engineer a lawyer and an expert on everything. That's exactly why Pakistan is in a hole. Bythe way I worked at Martin Baker too.

where did i say i was an expert at everything mr internship @ martin baker ?   im an electrical / instrument engineer who happens to have an interest in the affairs of the armed forces and thats that.

why dont you enlighten us with your post doctorate research on sustained high G loadings and their effects on male vs female physiology ?

[noxiouspython]

Aoa

A lot of tension in this thread. When we start arguing instead of debating - we loose perspective. It becomes more about winning then learning.

Many a times, learning is more beneficial.

And Allah knows best.

w/salaam

[Saqr]

Islamically, women are allowed to operate machinery, thereby they are permitted to fly aircraft. It's mubah, simply permissible.

Secondly, the opinions posted by rungroot earlier clearly show that IF the Imam were to order it, non-combatants may need to participate in defending their land.

Thirdly, in a wider context we still need to ask, despite being permissible is it required for the state to support this endeavour of training female fighter pilots? Isn't Pakistan a country with limited resources already, and is this a dire necessity? I don't think so. Women flying is halal, that is understood, but now we need to look at things in terms of pure policy, in terms of cost and benefit as we are faced with two permissible (mubah) options. But a state is also required to spend carefully and not indulge in unnecessary expenses, I'd say training women as fighter pilots can be considered unnecessary -- at least at this time anyways.

[Magnus]

JN1 reporting

[rungroot]

Saqr,

Not necessarily.  When under attack, God forbid, the ameer or imam may already have been martyred.  It is possible that the Muslims may well be leaderless.  Having said that, we can't really define any criteria on a defensive jihad.  Case in point, when Afghanistan wa invades, there for a few weeks, mullah Omar had just disappeared.  The american media was beating the drums that they killed him and it wasn't a month later that the word came that escaped and was alive and well holding charge over his followers.  My point is that invaders a number of times aim to take out the government leadership first.  The situation is naturally very fluid and rapidly changing.  The aim for every Muslim at the point regardless of age, status or gender is to defeat the invaders by any means necessary.  I don't think anyone in his right mind would disagree with that.  And some mullah comes out with a fatwa at that time to stop women from fighting, well, it would castserious doubts on that aalim with regards to which side is he really on.

On your third point.  I have to agree with blueazure here.  It is more of a publicity stunt for the musharrfah than anything else.  We don't have the defense budget of nato or america.  Considering that in 15 years, only ONE lady qualified as a full on combat pilot shows that perhaps, the money could have been spent better elsewhere.  I'm sure she is an excellent pilot.  But was it worth spending the millions on the dozens of female fighter pilots only to have ONE pass the test?  I think not.  Maybe if that money was spent on the same number of male figher pilots, may be 5 males would have passed the final test mean 5 more combat ready pilots in the cockpits as opposed to 1.  Allah hu alim.

[platinum786]

This may sound sexist but i wouldn't have bothered with female fighter pilots. Simple reason, women tend to get married, tend to get pregnant and then stop pursuing careers, even if its for a break. We are a nation with limited resources. In the private sector let women do what they want career wise. Even in the public sector being female should not hold you back. But there are certain essential roles you don't really want women in. Nobody lobbies for them to be fire fighters or serve as soldiers in the trenches or as submariner's. Nobody is pushing the boat out for female truck drivers or warehouse staff. This was a PR exercise, Mushy was obsessed with a softer image, more sso than a stronger nation.

[rungroot]

platinum786, on 16 June 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

This may sound sexist but i wouldn't have bothered with female fighter pilots. Simple reason, women tend to get married, tend to get pregnant and then stop pursuing careers, even if its for a break. We are a nation with limited resources. In the private sector let women do what they want career wise. Even in the public sector being female should not hold you back. But there are certain essential roles you don't really want women in. Nobody lobbies for them to be fire fighters or serve as soldiers in the trenches or as submariner's. Nobody is pushing the boat out for female truck drivers or warehouse staff. This was a PR exercise, Mushy was obsessed with a softer image, more sso than a stronger nation.

I agree and don't think that's sexist at all.  It's just being rational.  We can't be giving out 5 joy rides on fighter planes to female fighter pilots only to have them turn around and say, "okay bye bye now, it's been fun.  Now I'm gonna go raised a family".  Tax payers ka haram ka paysa nahi hay!

[butterfly]

blueazure, on 15 June 2013 - 09:32 PM, said:

where did i say i was an expert at everything mr internship @ martin baker ?   im an electrical / instrument engineer who happens to have an interest in the affairs of the armed forces and thats that.

why dont you enlighten us with your post doctorate research on sustained high G loadings and their effects on male vs female physiology ?

Who cares what you are! You way of talking is just plain rude. You have a negative attitude and think too much of yourself. To assume g suits solve all your problems and physiology has nothing to do with anything says it all.
As for mr Martin baker comment.....not worth my time.

As for post doctorate comment....well another winning argument from an intellectual Pakistani know it all. Did your peer tell you this whilst sitting on his turban flying at Mach 3 and lighting wind for afterburner. By the way how much did you pay for your degree? Do you actually have one or is it another assumption?
No don't bother to waffle.

[butterfly]

rungroot, on 16 June 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

I agree and don't think that's sexist at all.  It's just being rational.  We can't be giving out 5 joy rides on fighter planes to female fighter pilots only to have them turn around and say, "okay bye bye now, it's been fun.  Now I'm gonna go raised a family".  Tax payers ka haram ka paysa nahi hay!

Wonder what your daughter will say when she grows up?

[rungroot]

butterfly, on 17 June 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

Wonder what your daughter will say when she grows up?

My friend, I actually do have a daughter and plan on raising her with the same spirit of jihad that I raise my two sons with.  I will make sure that she fully understands that I will fully support her should she chooses to make a career out of fighter flying, she will need to dedicate herself to it and realize that it is a matter of national defence where there is absolutely no room for error and that millions of dollars of the poor tax payers' money is spent on making her one of the defenders the nation so she must not let that hard earned money go to waist and that she cannot take it as an opportunity to just prove a point.  I will also make sure that she understands, that when it comes to national defence, even her immediate family, her own children will need to take a back seat when compared to her job as being a soldier in the air.  So she better think long and hard before she makes the career call because I will be very disappointed in her if, after becoming a combat pilot, and after getting married and having a family of her own, she decides to quit fighter flying on account of she wants to be a stay at home mom now.  

As I said, woh tax payers ka paysa koi haram ka nahi hay.

[blueazure]

butterfly, on 17 June 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Who cares what you are! You way of talking is just plain rude. You have a negative attitude and think too much of yourself. To assume g suits solve all your problems and physiology has nothing to do with anything says it all.
As for mr Martin baker comment.....not worth my time.

As for post doctorate comment....well another winning argument from an intellectual Pakistani know it all. Did your peer tell you this whilst sitting on his turban flying at Mach 3 and lighting wind for afterburner. By the way how much did you pay for your degree? Do you actually have one or is it another assumption?
No don't bother to waffle.

mr martin baker , i have no time to argue over personal attacks,


show me your claimed  'research' on high g loadings otherwise you sure have joined the long line of jests and forum clowns like POC

[butterfly]

blueazure, on 18 June 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

mr martin baker , i have no time to argue over personal attacks,


show me your claimed  'research' on high g loadings otherwise you sure have joined the long line of jests and forum clowns like POC

One word' get lost'
Mr I am a engineer and I bull shyte about everything. Show me evidence you are an engineer or even a Pakistani for that matter. What kind of stupid arguments do you hold.
As for forum clowns you see one in the mirror daily.

Anyways...... Won't be answering any more of your post so please refrain from mine.

[blueazure]

Quote

and I bull shyte about everything

says it all

[butterfly]

rungroot, on 17 June 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

My friend, I actually do have a daughter and plan on raising her with the same spirit of jihad that I raise my two sons with.  I will make sure that she fully understands that I will fully support her should she chooses to make a career out of fighter flying, she will need to dedicate herself to it and realize that it is a matter of national defence where there is absolutely no room for error and that millions of dollars of the poor tax payers' money is spent on making her one of the defenders the nation so she must not let that hard earned money go to waist and that she cannot take it as an opportunity to just prove a point.  I will also make sure that she understands, that when it comes to national defence, even her immediate family, her own children will need to take a back seat when compared to her job as being a soldier in the air.  So she better think long and hard before she makes the career call because I will be very disappointed in her if, after becoming a combat pilot, and after getting married and having a family of her own, she decides to quit fighter flying on account of she wants to be a stay at home mom now.  

As I said, woh tax payers ka paysa koi haram ka nahi hay.

Bro I salute you passion and spirit.

I would rather the tax payers money was spent on her and she gave five or six years of dedicated service than the billions wasted by politicians and every other Pakistani in government. We shouldn't take dreams away from our daughters if they are capable. It's also their right to a family.
Once they didn't have any stature in society then Islam gave them equality we must encourage them within the confines of our deen.
Just returned from Pakistan this morning. Trust me what I saw girls wearing in Lahore and Karachi I wouldn't want that for my kids,

[rungroot]

^^^ burgers families man, what can I say.  Those same people hold up signs supporting drone strikes!!!

The female fighter pilots can have families, I am just against them QUITTING fighter flying and switching to a ground job when millions were spent on making them pilots.  In the west, female fighter pilots (or even the male fighter ones) don't get that option in spite of having deeper pockets.  They have to fulfill there contractual obligation of being a combat pilot for 15 to 20 years unless medically they are unable to.

[butterfly]

rungroot, on 18 June 2013 - 10:11 AM, said:

^^^ burgers families man, what can I say.  Those same people hold up signs supporting drone strikes!!!

The female fighter pilots can have families, I am just against them QUITTING fighter flying and switching to a ground job when millions were spent on making them pilots.  In the west, female fighter pilots (or even the male fighter ones) don't get that option in spite of having deeper pockets.  They have to fulfill there contractual obligation of being a combat pilot for 15 to 20 years unless medically they are unable to.

There is no reason why a female fighter pilot in PAF should quit simply because she has family!

[butterfly]

blueazure, on 18 June 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

says it all

Nice edit.....a liar is a liar.

[rungroot]

butterfly, on 18 June 2013 - 01:34 PM, said:

There is no reason why a female fighter pilot in PAF should quit simply because she has family!

That's my point.  By the looks of things it seems as though a lot of them do quit.

[1Pakistani]

blueazure, on 18 June 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

says it all

The other day I was on facebook and one of the lady who happens to be friend of my friend noted herself as co-pilot in PAF and from pictures it looked like she is one of these pilots were are talking about. But what really struck me was the physic of that lady, she was close to stick thin.

So now the most important question I had in my mind was what if there is some sort of hydraulics failure during the flight, how will she manually control the flight surfaces give the amount of force that is required especially rudders and her physics are such that it wont be possible.

After all when we are talking about flying we are talking about million dollars worth of equipment and the pilots life.

[rungroot]

^^^  naah, the same can said about a lot of our troops and male pilots who are very skinny.  But yet they're extremely strong and tough as a hammer.

[blueazure]

1Pakistani, on 18 June 2013 - 05:43 PM, said:

The other day I was on facebook and one of the lady who happens to be friend of my friend noted herself as co-pilot in PAF and from pictures it looked like she is one of these pilots were are talking about. But what really struck me was the physic of that lady, she was close to stick thin.

So now the most important question I had in my mind was what if there is some sort of hydraulics failure during the flight, how will she manually control the flight surfaces give the amount of force that is required especially rudders and her physics are such that it wont be possible.

After all when we are talking about flying we are talking about million dollars worth of equipment and the pilots life.

ask mr martin baker, he'll enlighten you on the bio-mechanics of the female body , he knows alot about female bodies ( cough )

----------------------------------------

its not that women cant fly or they lack any physical traits to do so, the russians in WW2 recruited women in large numbers to fill the gap left my male draft , women in the red army drove trucks, ambulances, complete regiments of soviet tank armies were manned by women who drove the T 34 , mind you, the T 34 had no power steering,  22 Russian female pilots made it to the ace status ,  lady snipers killed Germans on the ground en masse

but did the soviet army made any of them generals ? gave them command of even an infantry unit ?  the answer is NIL. they were all discharged and went home to raise families when the war ended

the simple logic is that the female psyche isnt cut out for the harsh realities of war,  girls are emotional at heart, they sympathize with the weak and cringe at the brutalities which happen, how  they lead in command roles to order a man to kill another man is a big question which the military is wise enough not to experiment with

leave the military aside for a moment, look at forbes top fortune 50 list, how many female CEOs are there ? i can bet less than 6

[butterfly]

.

[butterfly]

blueazure, on 19 June 2013 - 12:45 AM, said:

ask mr martin baker, he'll enlighten you on the bio-mechanics of the female body , he knows alot about female bodies ( cough )

----------------------------------------

its not that women cant fly or they lack any physical traits to do so, the russians in WW2 recruited women in large numbers to fill the gap left my male draft , women in the red army drove trucks, ambulances, complete regiments of soviet tank armies were manned by women who drove the T 34 , mind you, the T 34 had no power steering,  22 Russian female pilots made it to the ace status ,  lady snipers killed Germans on the ground en masse

but did the soviet army made any of them generals ? gave them command of even an infantry unit ?  the answer is NIL. they were all discharged and went home to raise families when the war ended

the simple logic is that the female psyche isnt cut out for the harsh realities of war,  girls are emotional at heart, they sympathize with the weak and cringe at the brutalities which happen, how  they lead in command roles to order a man to kill another man is a big question which the military is wise enough not to experiment with

leave the military aside for a moment, look at forbes top fortune 50 list, how many female CEOs are there ? i can bet less than 6

From your post 96 'mr martin baker , i have no time to argue over personal attacks'
what is this if not a personal attack.
So here is my response.... Don't cry now.

Well you know all about the MALE body don't you! Want to share your passion with everyone here? We all know why you cough don't we!  Perhaps change your name from Blueazure to Big Blue Bangun swallower.

[blueazure]

Quote

Well you know all about the MALE body don't you! Want to share your passion with everyone here? We all know why you cough don't we!  Perhaps change your name from Blueazure to Big Blue Bangun swallowe

cursing over the internet ..

--------------------------------
dont hide behind profanity and expletives ,  show me your research

[KudosBot]

How Islam Breeds Defeat In The Air


June 19, 2013:

Pakistan now has a female fighter pilot, flying a Chinese F7 (MiG 21 clone) jet. She is one of 316 women in the air force, which is more than three times what there were five years ago. But she is the only fighter pilot, one of the few in the Moslem world. Only about .7 percent of Pakistani military personnel are female, compared to 10-15 percent in most Western nations. The differences say a lot about the much greater effectiveness of Western armed forces.

Many countries have cultural problems with women in the military and particularly with female pilots. But there is a growing demand for female military pilots. That because there are not enough qualified men. India and Pakistan (which graduated its first female pilots four years ago) are both having a hard time keeping male pilots in uniform. Too many of the men depart for more lucrative, and less stressful, careers as commercial pilots. But in these two countries women may not be the solution. Currently, only about half of women officers stay in past their initial five year contract. Indian women, even military pilots, are under tremendous social and family pressure to marry. Those that do may still be pilots but married women are under a lot of pressure to have children. The Indian Air Force provides its female officers with ten months leave for this, six months during pregnancy and four months after delivery. The air force does this because pilots are very expensive to train. Fuel costs the same everywhere, as do spare parts. So what India may save in lower salaries is not enough. A good pilot costs over half a million dollars for training expenses and takes over five years to train. So the Indians are betting a lot of money and time on keeping their female pilots flying. Many women are willing to take up the challenge. But they have already heard from their peers in Western air force that motherhood and piloting can be a very exhausting combination.

Islamic nations have higher illiteracy rates overall and very high rates for women. Because of that these nations have a severe shortage of technically trained people. Those women that do get an education in Islamic cultures tend to be very bright and able. So there's a need and a solution close at hand. But because of those religious restrictions, and the generally very macho attitudes in Islamic nations, there will never be as many women in uniform there could be. This means that Islamic armed forces will continue to come up short when it comes to maintaining and using military technology. The future of military operations is more technology, so you can see where this is leading. No wonder Islamic radicals want to go back to the past. Unfortunately, the non-Moslem world is not inclined to join them. Taking a knife to a gun fight doesn't work and many Moslem military leaders are taking note.

American military operations in Iraq and Afghanistan in the last decade have had a tremendous impact on Moslem attitudes towards women in the military. Moslems seeing so many American women serving in the military and being competitive at it had a big impact. Some 300,000 American military women served in Iraq and Afghanistan. Over 700 were killed or wounded in action. Moslem women and men were impressed with these infidel (non-Moslem) who were real soldiers. They wore the uniform, the body armor, carried weapons, and could fight. Despite resistance from many men, there is more pressure in Moslem countries to let women serve in the local military.

Pakistan, which saw female American troops passing through and heard a lot of the stories of these women warriors doing their jobs next door in Afghanistan, is witnessing growing pressure to allow Pakistani women to operate like American women in the military. Currently, Pakistani attitudes towards women in the military are about a century behind the West. In the Pakistani military some 90 percent of the women serving are doctors and nurses. The rest are also technical specialists, brought in mainly because there were not enough technically qualified men to meet the need.

One technical specialty that even Moslem nations turn to the women for is pilots. Noting the success of female military pilots in the United States over the last three decades, an increasing number of other countries are moving in that direction as well. The reason is simple, many of the women who go through flight training turn out to have better flying skills than the average male pilot.

American use of female military pilots goes back a long way. During World War II (1939-45) the United States used women pilots to ferry military aircraft around, including bringing them to the airfields combat missions were flown from. These female pilots were considered civilian contractors but some male pilots could not help but notice that many of these women were very good pilots. In Russia the need for good pilots led to hundreds of women being put to work flying bombers and fighters in combat. But in Russia, as elsewhere, the women were removed from airplanes when the war was over. It took another three decades before the women regained in peacetime the jobs they had in wartime. Now several dozen nations, most in the West, employ women as military combat and non-combat pilots.

Worldwide women are increasingly part of the military. In many nations over ten percent of military personnel are female. In the U.S. military it’s now 15 percent. A century ago it was under one percent (and most of those were nurses and other medical personnel). More women are in uniform now because there aren't enough qualified men, especially for many of the technical jobs armed forces now have to deal with.

[butterfly]

^^What they fail to state is how the women in western militaries suffer from harassment and sexual abuse. How they also drop out early. This is a very one sided argument

[rungroot]

butterfly, on 19 June 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

^^What they fail to state is how the women in western militaries suffer from harassment and sexual abuse. How they also drop out early. This is a very one sided argument

It's an anti Islam propaganda article, nothing moe...