78 replies to this topic

[Saqr]

to have visited a Scorpene submarine and a U212, I can say than the Scorpene is directly derived from the french nuclear submarine, it's really a terrible war machine.
The U214 seem to be a toy, we can see many article, publicity, etc...but in the fact it's just a good communication lesson give by the germans. The many problem on the greek U214 is just the reflect of what i have already heard from the many delegation I have met. AIP system is limited at 120 kw (3 knots), the performances are just theoric and fuel cells need to be replace every 4 patrols...

I have to ask. Even though the Greek type has issues, why is it that the German and South Korean types have shown no problems (to the media at least).

[maglomanic]

I have to ask. Even though the Greek type has issues, why is it that the German and South Korean types have shown no problems (to the media at least).

It is said that South Koreans (Daewo heavy industries) were actively involved in the setting up of manufacturing yards and used the latest and greatest in this regards. Germans have been using same techniques/technologies for quite some time and its hard for them to replace all that legacy with new technologies which QC to next level. Greeks used exactly the same infrastructure as Germans , but after few hitches it is said the problems have been sorted out.

[Superman]

Regarding the U-214 sub, from some available publications on the net, compared to INs Scorpean it seems to be a much quiter acoustic signature by far, i think the reason IN rejected it was becouse of its limited firing capabilities.

[Saqr]

It is said that South Koreans (Daewo heavy industries) were actively involved in the setting up of manufacturing yards and used the latest and greatest in this regards. Germans have been using same techniques/technologies for quite some time and its hard for them to replace all that legacy with new technologies which QC to next level. Greeks used exactly the same infrastructure as Germans , but after few hitches it is said the problems have been sorted out.

It is likely that the Pakistani order would entirely be built in Pakistan by KSEW, i.e PN awarding contract of 3 new submarines to KSEW a little while ago. I wonder how that would turn out.

[crazyinsane105]

Regarding the U-214 sub, from some available publications on the net, compared to INs Scorpean it seems to be a much quiter acoustic signature by far, i think the reason IN rejected it was becouse of its limited firing capabilities.

What do you mean by its limited firing capabilities?

[sobank]

im not sure what is he talking about but i guess he is pointing at tube launch missiles.

[zewok]

I have to ask. Even though the Greek type has issues, why is it that the German and South Korean types have shown no problems (to the media at least).

do you really think that german navy will say that the HDW submarine are don't compliant with the specification?? German industry have strong link with it's government, the first exportating country in the world can't say that his product meet some difficulties. HDW (so german industries) have more than 10 submarine under command, this correspond to further billion of € contract, it's totally impossible.

Concerning korean submarine, he have entirely been manufacture by korean industry. If they speak about some problems on their submarine, it's to say that korean industries is not so efficient than Europeen. For a country which is in full growing, it's to accept to slowing his capabilities. They are not in the political position to seem unefficient.

Have you seen the records of diving time of U32?
http://www.fuelcells...pppage5052.html

In fact they have dived after the outlet of the Manche, and surfaced 2 days before arrived at Caddix.

Concerning the greek submarine, German politics want to stop working with the other greek shipyard if they don't accept the submarine. You will see in few month the submarine will be accept. Even if it's impossible to make major intervention on a submarine in this laps of time....

They are actually many propspect for Pakistan, turkish, Saoudian, India, etc...

Concerning Accoustic signature, in practice I think that the difference between scorpene and U214 is impossible to mesure in sea conditions.

[zewok]

no?

[Saqr]

do you really think that german navy will say that the HDW submarine are don't compliant with the specification?? German industry have strong link with it's government, the first exportating country in the world can't say that his product meet some difficulties. HDW (so german industries) have more than 10 submarine under command, this correspond to further billion of € contract, it's totally impossible.

So what does the new German order for 2 more U-212 and Italian order of 2 more suggest about the submarine?

BTW, I'm just curious, don't mean offense or anything.

[zewok]

So what does the new German order for 2 more U-212 and Italian order of 2 more suggest about the submarine?

BTW, I'm just curious, don't mean offense or anything.

The question is why German navy don't buy U214?
Here we speak about U212, no?

[zewok]

What I was saying

http://www.corlobe.tk/article4736.html

Greek navy will be obliged to accept the boat even if their are many problem.....
HDW reputation is mainly based on bribe and manipulation.

[zewok]

Comparison between Scorpene AIP and U214 AIP.

First the Scorpene is feet with Diesel MESMA. The Scorpene have approximately the same autonomy than the 214 (in the paper, we will discuss about it later) and a greater autonomy than the U212 (and by far).

Diesel MESMA operates with pure oxygen and diesel (the same that the diesel engine).
Fuel Cell (FC) operates with pure oxygen and pure hydrogen.

MESMA is very easy to refuel, in all bases you have diesel fuel and it’s just necessary to have a truck to fill the submarine with oxygen.
FC AIP needs oxygen (like MESMA) but also pure Hydrogen. To refuel the submarine you need to have some quay equipment (to fill the hydride, you must provide some cold energhy, the reaction is exothermic) so the submarine can’t refuel in all bases he have just 1 base (this reduce the operational interest of the submarine)
The hydrogen must have a very very high purity 99, 9999 % (even in France this quality is difficult to find), if you don’t use this quality you will damage the hydrides (poisoning) and decrease the hydrogen capacity. Such amount of hydrogen is very difficult to provisioned an is very expensive (here we speak of many trucks)

To make this refuelling, it takes at least 2 days for the hydrogen and several hours for the oxygen (you can’t refuel in the same time hydrogen and oxygen).


MESMA technologies is known since 50 years on the French nuclear submarine and all the intervention can be made on the quay and require little maintenance and it can be made by everyone. Life duration of such technology is several thousand of hours.
FC technology is very new, life duration of the fuel cell is very limited (1000 h so 4 patrols, the fuel cell run with pure oxygen, this is very bad for the life duration). This technology means that the countries who buy such a system are totally dependant of the constructor. So all the 1000 h the price of the fuel cell replacement will be several hundred of thousand dollars.

To embark 2 tons of hydrogen, it’s necessary to have at least 100 tons of hydrides (so you can remove all the lest of the submarine….Ohh what?? Greek submarine is too heavy of at least 100 tons???? It’s very strange).
This implies that the boat can not be re-equilibrated in function to his mission and operational requirement; you can’t modify the architecture of the submarine during his life duration.

To desorbs hydrogen from a metal alloy, you must provide some thermal energy (the reaction is endothermic). So the process is very slow, you cannot make what you want with the AIP. The fuel cell provides hot water to warm the hydride so the system run in closed cycle. When the hydride is almost empty, it’s very difficult to maintain the pressure necessary to feed the fuel cell, at this moment, the power of the system is reduced and you can’t run at maximum power (don’t be following….)

MESMA power must be regulated with the flowrate of diesel, you just have classical pump. You can run at maximum power from the first to the last hours.





Concerning the autonomy of the fuel cell AIP HDW gives a value considering that the total amount of the hydrogen in the hydrides is consumed. In practice, the pressure will necessary remain above the feeding pressure of the fuel cell (around 2 bar) you have a big parts of the hydrogen which can’t be consumed, so submarine autonomy will be less important that what it’s proposed by HDW

[JET_Flash]

What do you mean by its limited firing capabilities?

At the time of issue of request for submarine , the u 212/214 was not with sea skimming missile as Exocet, where as the scorpene was ready with it.That made it a better choice.Also HWD was black listed due to scam of U 209.Now all the govt has removed all the ban and is a primary contender for 2nd line of sub with Amur class which the govt is soon to issue in the future.

[sobank]

An intro to U212.



Thanks to ISI2003 for the video.

Edited by sobank, 08 April 2009 - 01:24 PM.

[khteran]

An intro to U214.



Thanks to ISI2003 for the video.

I saw it on the military channel a few weeks ago. Its about U212, not U214. They have some similarities but there are significant differences as well.

[arham]

.

Well, first of all I wouldn't call it an analysis... I was just trying to see what I can find apart from marketing brochures.

However, despite not being a submarine expert I can say that the U-214:

1- definitely has the better AIP-system
2- has longer range and endurance
3- dives deeper
4- has more bow tubes
5- is more compact (10-12 m shorter, displacement ca. 150 (surfaced) to 250 tons (submerged) less)
6- needs less crew (27 vs. 31)
7- benefits from experience of the 50 years world market leader in SSK construction
8- has an impressive future development perspective (e.g. IDAS, Muraena)

M- has German engineering stamped on it (sorry, couldn't resist that one)


therefore friends in the best interest of PN U-214 should be chosen


.

[vvvaidya29]

deleted...

[arham]

deleted...

.

u-214 is not for india, bcoz if it was, then they wouldn,t have bought scorpene.

i think india would stick to amurs.

in the SSN class though . there chance that they may go for the borei class.

.

[ISI2003]

An intro to U214.



Thanks to ISI2003 for the video.

Your Welcome

[vvvaidya29]

.

u-214 is not for india, bcoz if it was, then they wouldn,t have bought scorpene.

i think india would stick to amurs.

in the SSN class though . there chance that they may go for the borei class.

.

actually I deleted the question after finding it unnecessary....but still thanks for the info dear....

[Dizasta]

In my personal opinion, the whole Greek halabaloo of substandard German Subs is nothing more than something of a political fear. By creating doubt and scandal of refusing to take the delivery of the first U-214, the Greeks have pulled a very clever political stunt. In light of Pakistan Navy showing very strong interest and having reached 99.9% of the decision to go for the German U-214s. The Greeks have shown a shrewd attempt at creating doubt over the German sub's capability and quality. One may ask why would the Greeks do such a thing? Well, the answer is embeded in the strong Turkey-Pakistan military ties. Knowing full well, of the military cooperation b/w Turkey and Pakistan, it was easy for the Hellenic Navy to be wary of Pakistan Navy and Turkish Navy to share the full capabilities of the sub. Which in turn would compromise Hellenic Navy's capability.

I have to say, the Greeks sure have stirred quite a storm, as the Senate has asked Pakistan Navy to justify its choice in the U-214 Submarine, in light of the developments with the first delivery for the Hellenic Navy. Slick ..... really slick, the Greeks are!!!

[vvvaidya29]

I dont think that greeks refused to take U-214 delivery becuase they are afraid of PAK-TURKEY sharing submarine capacity. otherwise Greeks would not have even taken Eyrie awacs,F-16 (F-16,both Pakistan and Turkey flies them).Eyrie also can be studied by Turks when it will arrive in Pakistan.

[zewok]

http://www.thenews.c...il.asp?Id=10595

http://aquilinefocus...silent-and.html

[Fariha]

These subs are overpriced junk, second rate stuff sold to the navy how sad

[Caesar]

These subs are overpriced junk, second rate stuff sold to the navy how sad

Sorry but which subs r u talking about? if U-boats then you better back up your claims.

[Best of the Best]

These subs are overpriced junk, second rate stuff sold to the navy how sad

Would you please bother mentioning which Sub are you exactly claming to be an overpriced junk after you mention which sub you were refering to then please give your reason why do you consider it Those subs to be overpriced junk.

[Titan_1984]

Swedish developing next generation SSK which will be more stealthy than any other SSK....

[waz]

Swedish developing next generation SSK which will be more stealthy than any other SSK....

LOL....Do you know how this "next generation" [if you mean the Gotland class (A19)] submarine is being developed? By a lot of help from the Germans as HDW and Kockums merged back in 1999 and the Germans are the majority stake holders. Do you think they will develop a submarine that will rival their beloved 214? Also how can they when the Germans have major input! Also do you know the next generation submarine will still use the Sterling AIP propulsion which is deemed less efficient than its fuel cell and steam turbine counterparts?

Also Kockums is in talks with up to 3 other nations (Singapore is one) in participation to cut the costs of the development of these subs.....

[Bilal]

Can someone confirm that U-214 have non-magnetic or not? some sources say it does not.

[waz]

Can someone confirm that U-214 have non-magnetic or not? some sources say it does not.

The austenitic steel hull of the 214 is non-magnetic. One of the properties of austenitic steel is having a low or virtual zero magnetic permeability, in actual fact All austenitic grades have very low magnetic permeability’s.

[Ghias]

Can someone confirm that U-214 have non-magnetic or not? some sources say it does not.

I don't know if PN has made special arrangements for the non magnetic hull or not but its definitely not used in the normal U-214.

[sobank]

i dont know if it is posted before. but anyway
it says that 212 has the non magnetic hull. even the dishwasher in 212 is also non magnetic. so i guess the 214 is going to have non magnetic hull too.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Edited by sobank, 03 March 2009 - 08:22 PM.

[Pak-Eye]

i dont know if it is posted before. but anyway
it says that 212 has the non magnetic hull. even the dishwasher in 212 is also non magnetic. so i guess the 214 is going to have non magnetic hull too.

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

The export version U-214 lacks the non-magnetic hull

As Ghias has said; we don't know whether PN has made special arrangements for this; besides we also don't know what is germans' stance in this regards? Are they "friendly" just like french?

[Aliph Ahmed]

These subs are overpriced junk, second rate stuff sold to the navy how sad

I agree. These are over priced but the others made by them are better. as these ones made by them are somewhat over prized.

I guess, we should go with them instead of these. atleast they are made by them.

[sobank]

well first of all we need to know the detail for Pakistani version and then only we can compare it. otherwise we could be idiot like fariha and just post one line without any real argument.

[M_ZEE32]

In the field of the submarine the German are better than the french. After all they were the inventor and the legends in this tech. Now as they dont do the nuke sub, they in my consent should be more be excellent in the SSK systems.

[azharsaadat]

Why is their so hype about Marlin when its only on paper. Is their any actual facts on it so we can compare it with U-214 and specially scorpene.

Also isnt their any site which can prove which sub is better in current time, which ever that it may be from any country either sweden, turkey, australia , france or germany.

[azharsaadat]

So any new news ppl

[CAPRIKHAN]

WHAT HAPPEN NO NEWS ABOUT ANY SUB DEAL YET?