1470 replies to this topic

[Krad]

Yet India conducts an ICBM test in the back drop of muted criticism from USA who shrilled the loudest when north Korea fail tested a mere SLV! What is it going to take for you to see this hypocrisy?

Where have I said it is not hypocritical? I have repeatedly said that the western media is fully one sided and every single powerful country in the world is capable of and has demonstrated hypocrisy in history...China included.

What I care about is truth and reality.

Belief in an opponents capabilities would give that opponent encouragement to coerce the believer. do you remember the Indian SRE-1 RV capsule that came back down to earth without any char marks due pyrolysis? Those pictures of the RV’s shiny phenolic resin and black silica tiles cant be found anywhere now. Indian shiit came out then when the Chinese debunked their test as fake. doesn’t carbon carbon composites go through some form of thermodynamic transformation?

http://upload.wikime...pacecraft-1.jpg

There looks to be some sort of discoloration and abrasion of the silica tiles in that picture. The original pictures (from what I understand) that were used to attempt to prove it never actually took place was the capsule before it was even launched (hence the shininess etc...)

The material used in this capsule I would imagine to be similar to the HRSI silica tiles used on the space shuttle....rather than an ablative heat shield that many of the naysayers used to try to discredit the SRE experiment.

Silica tiles dont go through such charring like ablative heat shields (which are used only once). Thats why silica and reinforced CC were used in the space shuttle (so that such charring wouldn't take place and the system could be used many times with minimal change). Both of these do suffer discoloration during re-entry. Have a look at the space shuttle black tiles....you will find them similar to what the SRE looks like in the picture I posted.

remember the handyman-1 that found water vapour and concluded that there is enough water on the moon to grow vegetables one day? I was trying to draw your attention to the fact that there is water vapour everywhere in space... hell, ESA even found water vapour in the Orion nebula for crying out loud.

Please point me to the conclusion that there is enough water to grow vegetables? That was a possible interpretation expounded by some from the results of the mapping from NASA payloads (one on the chandrayan and the other on NASAs LCROSS). The indian impactor mission analysed the lunar atmosphere and found trace water there. The two most likely ways this could be invalid:

1) Water saturation/contamination prior to the mission
2) Instrument noise

Both are somewhat likely if you didnt prepare for them and even if you did.....would require more and more missions in the future to establish as fact imo.

Your rationale that the result is not valid because "water is everywhere in space" is quite silly. The depths of space....heck even the vast majority of space in our relatively comet and debris full solar system....has such little concentration of water that it is thousands of times drier than the atacama desert....pretty much nil. A water trace would be measured relative to this near-zero amount....so the result itself showed (if results were valid) that a much higher concentration of water was found in the soil environment that was ablating the water away (due to the vacuum of space). The concentration of the water increased in such a fashion according to altitude and latitude that it coincided very well with the M3 NASA and LCROSS results....so I feel that since all 3 payloads support each other very well....the chances that one of them being invalid is very slim.....(Simple statistical analysis).

Bringing in a system like the Orion Nebula is stupid. Our solar system's nebulous origins are billions of years in the past....so that sources of water are concentrated to bodies that have sufficient gravity....leaving the vast reaches between them nearly devoid of water (as I stated earlier).

Of course if you go to a nebula, you will find a large presence of water...along with many other elements and compounds. Please point me to a source that says the space regions in our solar system have a water vapour level concentration as high as what was found by the quadrapole spectrometer on board the impactor. Otherwise, throwing golf balls at the wall and hoping one will eventually stick achieves nothing.

Also I don't understand why you are bringing a whole new discussion into the ICBM and MTCR discussion....let's stick to the topic at hand.

hence we should according to you believe in indian capabilities.

Believe what you want...and I'll believe what I want. However remember it is better to be prepared and not need a counter-capability....rather than not be prepared (because you underestimate an opponent) and find that you dont have a response when sh1t hits the fan.

What you believe is of no concern to me....what is of concern to me is that the millions of people in the world dont suffer from a nuclear holocaust due to politicians fancy, apathy and ignorance.

[safdar]

Where have I said it is not hypocritical? I have repeatedly said that the western media is fully one sided and every single powerful country in the world is capable of and has demonstrated hypocrisy in history...China included.

Fair enough. And that’s the end of that.

http://upload.wikime...pacecraft-1.jpg

There looks to be some sort of discoloration and abrasion of the silica tiles in that picture. The original pictures (from what I understand) that were used to attempt to prove it never actually took place was the capsule before it was even launched (hence the shininess etc...)

is that the best picture you could find?. try the bottom one I've posted.

http://www.flonnet.c...09005312603.jpg

I’m not talking about the silica tiles in particular. But the phenolic resin used on the tip of the capsule, does that not go through pyrolysis? I mean that capsule dropped through the atmosphere and reached 2000 Celsius for some seconds, would it still look shiny... like a dog's knob?

And that’s the best resolution picture out there. Even the recovery video has been edited to omit the capsule just when it was lifted out of the water, clearly indicating that the Indians didn’t want the world to remember that their capsule actually disintegrated in the atmosphere, and they presented a replica version with a few broken silica tiles, which is easy to accomplish then to actually replicate the effects of re-entery on the capsule on ground. But why recover a fake one ? Because the ISRO chairman said: "People call the mission a failure unless the capsule is recovered."

Please point me to the conclusion that there is enough water to grow vegetables? That was a possible interpretation expounded by some from the results of the mapping from NASA payloads (one on the chandrayan and the other on NASAs LCROSS). The indian impactor mission analysed the lunar atmosphere and found trace water there. The two most likely ways this could be invalid:

This was a legitimate questioned asked by a reporter in the mission conference, it was in a different language hence you probably don’t know where I’m getting it from.

1) Water saturation/contamination prior to the mission

And that is what I call inception. I planted that thought in your head when you last argued with me over this. That there was a possibility that the high reading of water vapour in the spectrometer at altitude was probably due to air trapped in the spectrometer hence a sharp drop in the reading while it was descending close to the one of lunar poles where it was assumed the spectrometer should have picked up a higher reading. Their results were diametrically opposed to what they predicted and calculated hence with all probability it was contamination. If so why say that there is enough water on the moon to grow vegetables one day? Even thou they know that they need many more experiments to conclude beyond any reasonable doubt that any adventure on the moon is economically viable. Unless non of that is actually going to happen and no can disprove the Indian, does this claim (enough water to grow vegetables) not prove all this is bullshiit?

2) Instrument noise

what the f*ck is that?!!! lol. anyway..

Bringing in a system like the Orion Nebula is stupid. Our solar system's nebulous origins are billions of years in the past....so that sources of water are concentrated to bodies that have sufficient gravity....leaving the vast reaches between them nearly devoid of water (as I stated earlier).

I’m not even going to argue with this one, Orion nebula is stupidity....! of course it is.

"enough water molecules in a single day to fill the Earth's oceans sixty times over."

http://sci.esa.int/s...fobjectid=31372

I’m not stupid enough to believe the above for one second, because I know we could probably fit more than a billion earths in the Orion nebula, hence that water vapour is probably next to nothing. But you're stupid enough to believe that the Indian sent spectrometer and found enough water vapour to grow vegetables on the moon one day.

Also I don't understand why you are bringing a whole new discussion into the ICBM and MTCR discussion....let's stick to the topic at hand.

I don’t see the thread ask for anything in particular. it’s a no holds barred, throw anything you like thread, perfect. I’ll even try to make the kitchen sink stick in this thread.

[Krad]

I’m not talking about the silica tiles in particular. But the phenolic resin used on the tip of the capsule, does that not go through pyrolysis? I mean that capsule dropped through the atmosphere and reached 2000 Celsius for some seconds, would it still look shiny... like a dog's knob?

There is no such thing as a fully pyrolysis-resistant material. Everything undergoes pyrolysis to a certain extent. How much it undergoes and how much the surface of the material changes while undergoing a certain pyrolysis depends on many factors such as porosity, roughness in addition to the actual material used. Also it should be noted that there are heat treatements that can be done and materials you can dope or even coat the carbon phenolic resin composite with to make it more ablation resistant. The space shuttle nose and leading edges for example don't char or ablate significantly for this very reason...even though they have phenolic resin impregnated in them.

I can see some charring from the picture I posted (in the nose region)....not so much from the picture you posted. Why this oblique pyrolysis happened, I will leave to you to figure out (should be pretty obvious). A better top-down picture would help as well....but there's probably no pleasing everyone especially if you go in with a "I refuse to believe because of a bias" mentality.

What the exact process that was done for the SRE experiment is anyone's guess. But an unbiased mind would not take one camera angle of relative shininess (I say relative because I can still see striations and discoloration in the seam boundaries) as firm proof that it was all a staged fake...when more than enough evidence and explanation lies elsewhere to counter the perception.

This was a legitimate questioned asked by a reporter in the mission conference, it was in a different language hence you probably don’t know where I’m getting it from.

If you could post the video of this conference, it would be much appreciated. A language barrier should not be a problem....I can get it translated.

If this was the conclusion, it may be a valid one depending on the context of the question. There is indeed a large reservoir of water on the moon in the extreme latitudes from the data and analysis of all 3 payloads so far.

And that is what I call inception. I planted that thought in your head when you last argued with me over this.

You didnt plant jack sh1t. Contamination is always a real concern with any mission...done by whatever country in space.

That there was a possibility that the high reading of water vapour in the spectrometer at altitude was probably due to air trapped in the spectrometer hence a sharp drop in the reading while it was descending close to the one of lunar poles where it was assumed the spectrometer should have picked up a higher reading. Their results were diametrically opposed to what they predicted and calculated hence with all probability it was contamination.

It is a possibility.

The other possibility is that there are various processes at work on the moon that all interact in a varied complex way. Quoting:

http://www.planetary.../2010/2430.html

"CHACE directly samples the tenuous gaseous atmosphere while M³ looks for water ice on the top layers of the lunar regolith. If the water ice acts as a source due to, say, sublimation, which would be a strong function of temperature in the prevailing ultra high vacuum condition, then, in the absence of fresh sources during the measurement phase, the increase/decrease in the concentration measured by CHACE should be at the cost of what M³ has detected in the form of ice."

So if the presence of vapour water is a function of BOTH water ice concentration and the temperature (since sublimation is the main governing process that changes the solid ice to a vapour in a near vacuum condition)....then you could very well get an increase and then decrease.....because even though you would expect greater overall water concentration further south....more of it is locked in the form of ice and less is able to vapourise since less sublimation is taking place (due to the cooler temperature).

The only real way to verify all of this is to repeat the experiment on another payload.

Plus please show me where they PREDICTED that it would be a continually increasing trend of gaseous water. I have seen no such prediction anywhere.....just an open ended result gathering experiment that looked for a presence of water and then try to explain any trend that is shown using the other NASA payloads results as a reference.

I stand by that contamination is a possibility and not a probability (only someone that is biased and actively seeking to label it as a failure would say it is a probability)....and to get a definite answer.....more experiments of the same nature must be conducted. In fact doing it at two different times of day might provide more data into the importance of the sublimation process in governing the presence of water vapour in the atmosphere (since the insight has already been established).

what the f*ck is that?!!! lol. anyway..

Just like what it sounds like. Unwanted fluctuations inherent in the instrument and sensors themselves. This especially happens if you have a relatively low sampling rate and have not done enough tests to calibrate under various conditions to account for instrument sensitivity and component defections and behaviour problems.

However a high sampling rate and enough diligence and common sense application will minimize this.

But you're stupid enough to believe that the Indian sent spectrometer and found enough water vapour to grow vegetables on the moon one day.

If the conclusion was made before the M3 and LCROSS results, then whoever was answering the question was being stupid (again a video would be much appreciated).

But I specifically remember the ISRO did not publish its results till after the M3 mission revealed its data and discovery....so if the answer was made with the results from NASA already established....then it is not a stupid answer.....because the NASA payloads illustrated a clear presence of ice...enough to extract and drink...and yes for agriculture one day maybe. However on the basis of the impact probe alone...the amount of water present could not have been concluded.

NASA says the Mini-SAR aboard chandrayaan found an estimated 600 million metric tons of water:

http://www.nasa.gov/...e_deposits.html
http://www.space.com...north-pole.html

Also worth reading to get an idea of the prevailing opinions in the early days of the M3 results:

http://www.usatoday....oon-water_N.htm

Quote:

The chance that three different instruments malfunctioned in the same way on three different spaceships is almost zilch, so this confirms that it's water and hydroxyl, Pieters said.
"There's just no question that it's there," Pieters said. "It's unequivocal."

Which is pretty much what I said earlier.

Also, if you feel there is some sort of nefarious indian-western alliance in promoting the indian results....have a look at this:

http://news.sciencem...h-water-on.html

"Is the moon too wet for astronomy? Chinese scientists have found evidence that our airless, dry-as-a-bone satellite actually contains enough water vapor to complicate the operations of some telescopes. In 2013, China plans to place a small ultraviolet observatory on the lunar surface. UV astronomy must be conducted in an airless environment—in Earth orbit, say, or on the moon—because water molecules in Earth's atmosphere absorb UV light. But at a presentation yesterday at the European Planetary Science Congress in Rome, researchers from the Chinese Academy of Sciences have found a hitch in the latter prospect. Chemical surveys taken from India's Chandrayaan-1 spacecraft have detected the presence of water vapor on the lunar surface (blue areas). Sunlight breaks down the water molecules, freeing individual hydrogen atoms, which can scatter incoming ultraviolet light and smear images. The effect is sufficient, the scientists have concluded, to distort images enough that UV astronomers with lunar ambitions may have to look elsewhere."


So if the Chinese are willing to accept the results in future planning of their missions....are you saying you know something the Chinese don't?

I don’t see the thread ask for anything in particular. it’s a no holds barred, throw anything you like thread, perfect. I’ll even try to make the kitchen sink stick in this thread.

Sure go ahead. You will just lose again.

[Martian]

At 54.51 rupees per dollar, India's GDP is smaller than Australia's!

In 2011 (at an average exchange rate of 46.667 Indian rupees per U.S. dollar), India's GDP was 1.676 trillion.

At the current exchange rate of 54.41 rupees per dollar:

1.676 trillion x (46.667 rupees / 54.41 rupees per dollar) = $1.437 trillion Indian GDP for 2011


After adjusting India's 2011 GDP to the current exchange rate ($1.437 trillion), it is smaller than Australia's GDP ($1.488 trillion)!

By the way, China's $7.298 trillion GDP is 5.08 times larger than India's $1.437 trillion GDP for 2011.

[Note: India's 2011 monthly average exchange rate link at http://www.x-rates.c...D/hist2011.html

The Indian rupee hit an all-time-low exchange rate of 54.41 rupees per dollar on Wednesday (May 16, 2012). Citation: http://timesofindia....ow/13190691.cms]

[macau boy]

They still have roughly 300 billions USD in forex reserve; signh can order dumping that in the market to rescue the rupee.

[safdar]

There is no such thing as a fully pyrolysis-resistant material.

Thnakyou. now point it out to me where do you see any pyrolysis?

the only thing evident is the salt water effects after good long soak in the sea water.

I can see some charring from the picture I posted (in the nose region)....not so much from the picture you posted. Why this oblique pyrolysis happened, I will leave to you to figure out (should be pretty obvious). A better top-down picture would help as well....but there's probably no pleasing everyone especially if you go in with a "I refuse to believe because of a bias" mentality.

So you’re saying that the SRE-1 capsule fell to earth in an oblique angle, just like how a meteorite would be seen hurling towards earth at an depressed trajectory. There is no evidence if meteorites would fall in such manner only other then what Hollywood shows, even so, most spherical object entering the atmosphere would still be engulfed in hot plasma and gases. You are actually comparing the SRE-1 to the USA space shuttle discovery! The SRE-1 would still rotate the cone shape would stabilise orientation and dispersing the heat around it and would not remain lateral and stationary on its axis throughout the decent, hence there should be some evidence of charring on all sides. Not a shiny untouched surface on one side. Specially when an object enters at 100 KM alt it’s a rather a splash down in the atmosphere nose first then an oblique angle entry (that phenomena is only perceived by comparing an objects fall to the earths curvature,)or unless its a lifting reentery design with a flat parabolic shape nose, lateral landing would be true once the object is forced to slow further down the descent until the drag chutes slow it till it just drops nose first. The logic that because the SRE-1 came down latterly would only effect deviation in designated landing area not how charring would effect only one side not the other . You cant compare the shape of the SRE-1 to the orbiter or the thermal shields.

What the exact process that was done for the SRE experiment is anyone's guess. But an unbiased mind would not take one camera angle of relative shininess (I say relative because I can still see striations and discoloration in the seam boundaries) as firm proof that it was all a staged fake...when more than enough evidence and explanation lies elsewhere to counter the perception.

Self refuting statement!

If you could post the video of this conference, it would be much appreciated. A language barrier should not be a problem....I can get it translated.
If this was the conclusion, it may be a valid one depending on the context of the question. There is indeed a large reservoir of water on the moon in the extreme latitudes from the data and analysis of all 3 payloads so far.

Its out of the question. been too long even for any high res pics let alone the after mission conrrence. Im not disputing the fact that is there water or not Im disputing the fact that the indian QSM discovered it. Scientist say stupid things all the time, for example some scientist spotted using google earth that all the cows at once graze facing north or south and stated that the cows align themselves to earths polar magnetic fields!!!???? What ridiculousness! The truth is. The cows align themselves N or S to keep the sun out of their eyes. But these things do happen. Anyway I’m not disputing that there aren’t any water deposits on the lunar poles. But the handyman-1 was much of a failure then success and also that the M3 was not positioned to scan the regolyth ejected just after the QMS hit the lunar surface, hence pretty much everything is in doubt.

The QSM and M3 results are complete opposites to each other, which clearly states that either the QSM was a one shot device detected some constituents at altitude, got swamped or saturated, seized to operate, or a malfunction occurred due to heat (lets not forget Handyman-1 did get cooked) or contamination picked up from earth, which the M3 is immune to since it’s an imaging SM (a passive device), all of these factors should render the QSM results corrupt or at least a red herring and not something to base theories upon. No matter how you try to see this, the fact is QSM is reading a vacuum or a exosphere near the surface of the pole (no water vapour), yet M3 is indicating considerable amount of water deposits! There should be water vapour present according to your sublimation theory. If there is a surface boundary with vacuum or exosphere, where did the water vapour come from in the thin lunar atmosphere? If not from the lunar south pole then is it possible to have water vapour release from the lunar equator where the temperatures could rise +130 degrees Celsius?. yet the regolith in that region does not prove any theories of sublimation! And if the QSM has detected water why did the other devices not detect any water molecules in the atmosphere? And how does the MIP QSM distinguish between the 16/17/18 AMU molecules detected when there is no sample available of the lunar constituents? could it not be that the QSM is reading water vapour trapped from earth itself at the time of manufacturing of the QSM?

http://www.astronoo.com/en/moon.html

Anyway…The discovery of water on the moon is confirmed by 2 instruments: American instrument M3 on the Indian Handyman-1 probe and instrument VIMS of the Cassini Huygens mission (ESA / NASA). Sorry no Indian QSM is credited with any find. However you can believe what ever you like the facts are indisputable.

I know what instrument noise is!

And like the thermal issues and radiation Handyman-1 experienced. Its amazing nearly every thing failed but the QMS picked up water vapour and evidence of enough water to grow………..

You didnt plant jack sh1t. Contamination is always a real concern with any mission...done by whatever country in space.

Yes I did. becuase you wouldt even buy that the last time you argued forever!

Now, I’m going to use common sense correspondence theory over here. That the QMS is an active device unlike the M3, this QMS has been manufactured on earth and at one time swamped with the constituents it is to seek out on the moon. I can understand if this device is used on a planet or rather a moon, like Titan, looking for any kind of constituents or dropped on a gaseous planet where the primary goal isn’t to look for water vapour, then the device would be fine. However one shouldn’t rely on this device at all which was once swamped with the primary constituents it is to seek out elsewhere in an alien environment, where there is very little if any to begin with in the first place. Its not a possibility of contamination, it is a 99% probability mate.

It is a possibility.

99% probability.

The only real way to verify all of this is to repeat the experiment on another payload.

Exactly. now how do you propse to do that? just repeat the experiment Handyman-1 could not perform, just make sure the M3 spectrometer is in position to scan at the right time. Easy said then done.

Sure go ahead. You will just lose again.

Lose what? this debate? Lol. So the boy has some time on his hands, psyched him self up, ready to take this p*ki on.ooh! I’m so scared I want my mumy! I should point out that you are slighty confussed, you contradict yourself from paragraph to paragragh, and leave self refuting statements at the end of the paragraph. Its ok, because I know you are a victim of the strong Israeli lobby and media and I’m trying to free from that. So please show some taste and courtesy and remember what that little Canadian girl said.

[Martian]

They still have roughly 300 billions USD in forex reserve; signh can order dumping that in the market to rescue the rupee.

The Indians need to keep most of their forex reserves to cover the payment for imports, such as oil. They can only cover about seven months of imports. They have very little surplus forex to support the rupee.

[macau boy]

The Indians need to keep most of their forex reserves to cover the payment for imports, such as oil. They can only cover about seven months of imports. They have very little surplus forex to support the rupee.

Thx.
I have no idea that their economy is in such dire situation. I guess after all these years of propaganda on india's "meteoric growth", the day of reckoning is just round the corner.

[Krad]

test

[Martian]

Sun Tzu: "strike at what is weak"

1. Taiwan is the more important strategic objective. Taiwan is a technological and economic prize. South Tibet/Arunachal Pradesh will have to wait its turn.

2. China is taking its sweet time, because India is falling apart. The current Chinese economy has grown to five times the size of the Indian economy. Wait a few more years and the Chinese economy may grow to ten times the size of the Indian economy. This is possible, because the Indian rupee is in free fall and economic problems are multiplying in India.

3. By waiting a few years, China can deploy devastating advanced weapons against India. For example, the J-20 Mighty Dragon stealth fighter will be inducted around 2018. By 2025, there will be a massive fleet of J-20s that can control Indian airspace. Similarly, the Chinese KJ-2000 AWACS fleet has grown to eight. Many more will be built in the next ten years.

In conclusion, the Chinese economy and military will be many times stronger in ten years' time relative to the Indians. Therefore, it is perfectly logical to wait until China's economic and military strengths are maximized vis-a-vis the Indians before settling the South Tibet border dispute once and for all.

----------

My estimate is reasonable.

China's economy is projected to grow roughly at 7% for the next ten years (see World Bank lowers China growth forecast - China.org.cn).

Given the large Indian debt and interest payments, let's assume India reverts back to the 2% Hindu growth rate.

Coupled with China's appreciating currency and India's free-falling rupee, China only has to double its current economy vis-a-vis the Indians to achieve a tenfold difference in economic size.

To illustrate:

The 2011 Chinese economy is $7.298 trillion. The 2011 Indian economy at current exchange rate (e.g. 54.51 rupees per dollar) is $1.437 trillion (see citation below).

For the next ten years, China's economy grows by an average of 7% and the currency appreciates by an average of 3% annually. The nominal Indian economic growth is offset by a falling rupee to yield an effective (or net) Hindu 2% growth rate.

$7.298 * (1.1) ^ 10 = $18.93 trillion Chinese economy in 2021

$1.437 * (1.02) ^ 10 = $1.75 trillion Indian economy in 2021

As you can see, China's economy in 2021 could be ten times larger than the Indian economy.

The early to mid-2020s seem like a good time to crush the weak Indians. Sun Tzu would approve!

----------

At 54.51 rupees per dollar, China's GDP is 5 times larger than Indian GDP!

In 2011 (at an average exchange rate of 46.667 Indian rupees per U.S. dollar), India's GDP was 1.676 trillion.

At the current exchange rate of 54.41 rupees per dollar:

1.676 trillion x (46.667 rupees / 54.41 rupees per dollar) = $1.437 trillion Indian GDP for 2011


After adjusting India's 2011 GDP to the current exchange rate ($1.437 trillion), it is smaller than Australia's GDP ($1.488 trillion)!

By the way, China's $7.298 trillion GDP is 5.08 times larger than India's $1.437 trillion GDP for 2011.

[Note: India's 2011 monthly average exchange rate link at Monthly Exchange Rate Average (Indian Rupee, American Dollar) 2011 - x-rates

The Indian rupee hit an all-time-low exchange rate of 54.41 rupees per dollar on Wednesday (May 16, 2012). Citation: Weak rupee to make polished diamonds costlier - The Times of India]

[macau boy]

If the rupee keep falling, india may have to be de-listed from BRICS, thus BRICS would become BRCS or RCBS or CSBR or SCRB.

[SUPARCO]

If the rupee keep falling, india may have to be de-listed from BRICS, thus BRICS would become BRCS or RCBS or CSBR or SCRB.

Hello there,

They can replace it with Indonesia soon.

[macau boy]

Hello there,

They can replace it with Indonesia soon.

Yeah, many countries could potentially make the list; in addition to Indonesia, Maxico and Turkey are the other two candidates. They are all ahead of South Africa and have the basic ingredients of newly developing markets such as expending population, large size of country (land and water), rich natural resources and a growing economy.

[Krad]

Something goofs up when I try to post long replies in this thread so let's try it this way.

For safdar:

http://freetexthost.com/bxqr1ovtau

[safdar]

Something goofs up when I try to post long replies in this thread so let's try it this way.

For safdar:

http://freetexthost.com/bxqr1ovtau

Oooii. What an effort. 10/10. not for content thou I havent read it yet, reply to folow....

I think you have seriuos anomalies hidden characters and codes infestation in your document. You have to re-write it all because I did try to copy paste your document into your quote and It did not work. nearly effed up my own posting rights as well.

[Krad]

take your time....or we can just agree to disagree

Its been so long ago that I posted (and had the weird forum thing happen) that I've forgotten half the stuff we were talking about.

It will probably be my last post on this thread....you can have the last word. Really dont have the time for these long posts.

[safdar]

take your time....or we can just agree to disagree

I think the forum only takes 1000 word post. Your was a 2500 word diatribe. Thank you.... anyway!

Pyrolysis = charring is correct, you are bringing in irrelevancy,. Below is the space-x capsule, a lifting re-entry design (keep that in mind). Observe the charring.



Show me the evidence on SRE-1. You cant. End of story I win.

But what you say becomes liable when you stated that one side is charred. And you want me to guess why. Well.

You hinted towards AoA (angle of attack) however I have pointed out that SRE-1 was not a lifting re-entry designs (you should have read my edited post). From your reply you seem flummoxed.

This is one point I will press you on. Be prepared. The cone shape re-entry model has a ballistic trajectory, the main purpose for this design is to test heat shielding and of course accurately predict and calculate the cone’s CG (centre of gravity) I‘ll assume you know what I’m talking about. When the cone re-enters with a ballistic trajectory without any AoA, it would come to a state of equilibrium, distributing hot gases uniformly around its exterior since there are no stagnation points due to the uniform shape and no AOA. Of course due to gravity residual vertical yaw causes trajectory to dip down away from its axis. This is of course anticipated for a controlled touchdown/splashdown in a desired region, however it does not effect charring on specific stagnation points since yaw due to gravity occurs after exit of re-entry phase and the capsule slowed down due to drag.

The SRE-1 was a cone shape with a ballistic trajectory, and re-entry capsule should establish equilibrium charring marks should be present all around the vehicle and they should present that as proof to the world. Unless it is a lifting design which would re-enter with an AoA (AoA is achieved by shifting the CG) and of course yaw due to gravity, due to this (shift of CG, AoA and yaw) stagnation points developing around certain parts of the exterior and that is what your document is referring to: “mass fraction of oxygen in the stream and the stagnation pressure” dictates where charring occurs and where it might not occur, however only evident in a lifting re-entry model not cone shape ballistic design.

the SRE-1 WAS NOT a lifting re-entry design, IT WAS a ballistic cone design.

And with that explanation I have busted your lopsided charring argument.

I dare you to prove me wrong.

16/17/18 AMU water? Please show me where 16 AMU and 17 AMU water is possible anywhere in the universe?

I flummoxed you again! The 16 AMU is an atomic mass unit of oxygen not water. 17 AMU Oxygen-17? hydroxyl? and 18 AMU which is clearly water molecule, were detected by the QMS (not my claim). How could these be confirmed of lunar origins? Or how could even one be of lunar origins and others of unknown? There is no sample spectra to compare with.

Ok, so you just established that you have no idea about how space mission manufacturing is done. Good for you mate!

Vacuum drying is the only viable option. However I doubt from the process of manufacture of the QSM to test, transport and commissioning, it remained in a state of vacuum! This is not a satellite, the active QSM would require 100% purity from contaminations….easy right?. The QSM is suppose to pick up constituents it has been exposed to and where no sample is present of the alien environment, the result can never be rendered accurate. Common sense.

However since one test has proved inconclusive due to unknown factors! A probability of contamination is present, that an active QSM should not be used since this device would be swamped with the primary constituents it is to seek. Which would require to uproot the entire manufacturing, testing, transporting and commissioning methods and equipment used in the first QSM.

also according to you. Instrument noise created 18 AMU reading in the QSM on the moon!!!

Carle Pieters happens to think so! She is going to RECONFIRM QSM results!




I think I understand that picture very well thank you. As the M3 move over the or near the southern lunar pole detected a higher amplitude of water deposits, also keep in mind the M3 was not descending, it was in orbit on the handyman-1 probe. The QSM in the MIP was at the time descending towards the lunar shout pole and instead read a low amplitude of constituents (precisely AMU 18 water vapour) close to the lunar surface where M3 did the opposite. This would contradict the hydroxyl and sublimation theory.


However scientists are still split, and all agree that a second more reliable experiment on Chandrayaan 2 will provide better confirmation and more valid results (and also back check to see how accurate the CHACE results were). I guess we will have to wait and see.

thankyou. we end the debate here that nothing is conclusive. which was my point exactly. but its good that you can see simple abductive reasoning worked here.

The Orion nebula water theory and water vapour everywhere is claimed by ESA not me. I don’t have a deep space spectroscope to confirms those claims either, for all I know it could all be bullshit. But I happen to like ESA, that’s why I use their claims.

[Krad]

This is one point I will press you on. Be prepared. The cone shape re-entry model has a ballistic trajectory, the main purpose for this design is to test heat shielding and of course accurately predict and calculate the cone’s CG (centre of gravity) I‘ll assume you know what I’m talking about. When the cone re-enters with a ballistic trajectory without any AoA, it would come to a state of equilibrium, distributing hot gases uniformly around its exterior since there are no stagnation points due to the uniform shape and no AOA. Of course due to gravity residual vertical yaw causes trajectory to dip down away from its axis. This is of course anticipated for a controlled touchdown/splashdown in a desired region, however it does not effect charring on specific stagnation points since yaw due to gravity occurs after exit of re-entry phase and the capsule slowed down due to drag.

The SRE-1 was a cone shape with a ballistic trajectory, and re-entry capsule should establish equilibrium charring marks should be present all around the vehicle and they should present that as proof to the world. Unless it is a lifting design which would re-enter with an AoA (AoA is achieved by shifting the CG) and of course yaw due to gravity, due to this (shift of CG, AoA and yaw) stagnation points developing around certain parts of the exterior and that is what your document is referring to: “mass fraction of oxygen in the stream and the stagnation pressure” dictates where charring occurs and where it might not occur, however only evident in a lifting re-entry model not cone shape ballistic design.

Nope, not even close. Keep trying. You obviously have no idea about how silica materials or phenolic cones react to extreme heat. You really should read that paper I posted somewhere earlier. I already said it has nothing to do with this theory of oblique AoA....so no idea why u spent two paragraphs patting yourself on the back.

A good place to start is the Space shuttle TPS tiles:

http://www.airspacem...html?c=y&page=1

Then its a bit of application of common sense and logic.

Below is the space-x capsule, a lifting re-entry design (keep that in mind). Observe the charring.

Observe how there are no silica tiles either.

17 AMU Oxygen-17? hydroxyl? and 18 AMU which is clearly water molecule, were detected by the QMS (not my claim). How could these be confirmed of lunar origins? Or how could even one be of lunar origins and others of unknown? There is no sample spectra to compare with.

Earlier your statement was that the QMS was how it differentiated between 16/17/18 AMU molecules. Again you show no understanding of how a QMS works.

Plus how can you be sure of anything? Science in space is a very delicate game of probabilities a lot of the time. There are very rarely certain answers....just high probabilities. When you are measuring trace elements in the lunar atmosphere, and they show a marked correlation with latitude and altitude (rather than a consistent very tiny tiny amount found in the vacuum of space)....you can say with a very high probability that either your instrument is contaminated or there is water on the moon. If other payloads correlate a water discovery, its adds credence to your discovery provided you took adequate care when fabricating and installing the system and hermetically sealing it. You then proceed to aggregate more data in future missions using the experience of the one completed.

Either you have to believe the Indians are inherently stupid or clumsy to mess up having a clean room and taking the proper precautions when dealing with a water detection payload....or you decide to accept the data on the basis that other payloads have confirmed a water presence before and after and wait for more experiments in the future to further validate.

Trying to desperately pick any hole in an area you have little understanding about serves no purpose.

Vacuum drying is the only viable option. However I doubt from the process of manufacture of the QSM to test, transport and commissioning, it remained in a state of vacuum! This is not a satellite, the active QSM would require 100% purity from contaminations….easy right?. The QSM is suppose to pick up constituents it has been exposed to and where no sample is present of the alien environment, the result can never be rendered accurate. Common sense.

Vacuum drying...sure thats one option. But it would be pretty stupid if you go the lengths of vacuum drying and then didn't hermetically seal it....a process that's been around for a long time now...

However since one test has proved inconclusive due to unknown factors! A probability of contamination is present, that an active QSM should not be used since this device would be swamped with the primary constituents it is to seek. Which would require to uproot the entire manufacturing, testing, transporting and commissioning methods and equipment used in the first QSM.

The way I see it, you can never achieve the reliability of a passive system of detection like a sensor with an active system....but if you are doing an impact probe anyway....with a little effort you can gather some useful data in a different context (lunar atmospheric rather than surface). This gives you more understanding into how the moon's water exists in various cycles. All you need to ensure is decent reliability (with adequate care which is not all that hard to ensure from what I've seen in the industry) and the ideal would be repeatiblity as well (depends on funding and how seriously you want to validate the data).

So you can be a natural pessimist (you) or an optimist (me). My intuition is that if a western country or China did the exact same experiment (and this goes for the re-entry experiment as well) you would not be engaging in this level of desperation in a field you have little understanding about.....you would just say its a success..... so excuse me if I treat your pessimism with a little amusement.....I find it unfounded in this case because I give scientists all around the world the benefit of the doubt until there is clear cut evidence pointing to refute something they did (which unfortunately for you, you don't have).

The QSM in the MIP was at the time descending towards the lunar shout pole and instead read a low amplitude of constituents (precisely AMU 18 water vapour) close to the lunar surface where M3 did the opposite. This would contradict the hydroxyl and sublimation theory.

And you once again prove you have no idea about the various factors that govern sublimation. Its like repetitive rote learning with you. Saying something a hundred times does not make it correct. I can have a huge block of ice in one room and a tiny speck of it in another and I can get a much larger reading of water vapour in the latter room. Why is that? Temperature and heat. The triple point has not been achieved yet, but temperature still plays a big big role in sublimation rates.

The Orion nebula water theory and water vapour everywhere is claimed by ESA not me.

Nowhere has anyone claimed there is water vapour in the vast vacuums of space. You need a localised source with water to get any measurable concentration in space (and of course a heat source to give it enough energy to move around). Even the space between Earth and Moon is starved of water.....only when you get much closer and enter the respective atmospheres of either body can you actually pick up water readings. Same thing goes for the nebula, the "space water" is found really in the general vicinity of the nebula on top of inside the nebula itself.

[weishuaiilike]

now you’can guess which is Chinese or Indian
who‘s better？

[safdar]

Nope, not even close. Keep trying. You obviously have no idea about how silica materials or phenolic cones react to extreme heat. You really should read that paper I posted somewhere earlier. I already said it has nothing to do with this theory of oblique AoA....so no idea why u spent two paragraphs patting yourself on the back.

Look make it easy on yourself. You deliberately tried to derail the debate by applying some factors that solely apply to lifting re-entry designs to another design we are discussing. Now you are saying pyrolysis either occurs or it doesn’t, depending on reasons in some paper you posted which does not state the material under observation, however lets all assume it is an ablative material. Now you say I said silica tiles go through pyrolysis.

I specifically said. That the nose (apex) of the cone shape SRE-1 is made of carbon phenolic resin which is an ablative material, which should go through pyrolysis. And charring marks should be evident along the smooth exterior of the SRE-1 from apex to base, all around the vehicle i.e. the silica tiles which also happens to have some ablative resin coating.

You said: no. charring (or charring marks) is only on one side!

I said: that’s not possible since that phenomena is only evident in a lifting designs, where the orientation of the vehicle would expose some regions to charring marks due to shear reentry stresses at stagnation points which are created due to the shape of the design and orientation of the decent.


You said: no.no.no! you are stupid I am intelligent I know better, because I am white and a scientist! (metaphorically speaking of course).

So far your arguments have been nothing less then what priests, clerics, shamans and charlatans have been doing for centuries! Intimidating their readers with incantations only to obscure the irrationality in their discourse!

So lets leave the SRE-1 for now and talk about pompous you and stupid me!

You yourself are still adamant its something else, which I don’t understand. And the truth is you yourself don’t know what you are talking about since you have lost track of the deliberate obscurity you presented and making it look like I don’t have the background to follow your argument, hence I have to go through an experience similar to a revelation in order to understand you! This reminds me of a short tale by Hans Christian Anderson “the emperors new cloths”!

In scientific vernacular, you are a shyster. Maybe you think I’m the devil who creates doubt in the putative reader due to ignorance, and lack of understanding.

So. Lets agree to something and end this debate. That if the Indians conduct a second test of SRE-2 (unmanned re-entry) then we conclude that the first test was a failure and the recovery faked. Also if they conduct a manned re-entry (not a monkey or dog re-entry) and it is a success, I.e. astronaut recovered successfully. we conclude that the first SRE-1 test was a success and I was wrong?

Do you agree to those terms?

Observe how there are no silica tiles either.

That wasnt the point!

Earlier your statement was that the QMS was how it differentiated between 16/17/18 AMU molecules. Again you show no understanding of how a QMS works.

The Indian data showed a spike in 16, 17, 18 AMU molecules in the QSM reading. How else would the Indian conclude they found water? My question was how can they say for sure those are of lunar origins. Does the lunar atmosphere only have those constituents?

Either you have to believe the Indians are inherently stupid or clumsy to mess up having a clean room and taking the proper precautions when dealing with a water detection payload....or you decide to accept the data on the basis that other payloads have confirmed a water presence before and after and wait for more experiments in the future to further validate.

No I just think the Indians used an inadequate device not fit for purpose, since they had no other device or that the device’s purpose was not to detect water, but to only detect constituents, composition and density of the thin lunar atmosphere for a controlled landing, which would prove after they succesfully land a lunar rover. To detect water using a QSM is illogical.

Vacuum drying...sure thats one option. But it would be pretty stupid if you go the lengths of vacuum drying and then didn't hermetically seal it....a process that's been around for a long time now...

Hermetically sealed inlet chamber of the QSM which would pop open when the “probe (is) flying at more than a kilometre a second!” wow!

And you once again prove you have no idea about the various factors that govern sublimation. Its like repetitive rote learning with you. Saying something a hundred times does not make it correct. I can have a huge block of ice in one room and a tiny speck of it in another and I can get a much larger reading of water vapour in the latter room. Why is that? Temperature and heat. The triple point has not been achieved yet, but temperature still plays a big big role in sublimation rates.

No. you are only presenting one theory. The lunar sublimation theory not only refers to the theory of solid to gaseous transform but visa versa. The hydroxyl theory that hydrogen atoms released by the sun interact with the oxygen trapped in the lunar regolith, which combined travel towards the cold polar regions (first law of thermodynamics). Hence whatever the temperature water molecule either AMU 17 or 18 should be present. If not then why did the Indian scientist state AMU 17 was detected? What is AMU 17 they refer to? Is the water detected not also referred to as hydroxyl?

If what you state is true then why did they drop the MIP at the wrong time after 3400 orbits around the moon?

Nowhere has anyone claimed there is water vapour in the vast vacuums of space.

ESA has claimed there is water vapour everywhere.

[Krad]

just a heads up that i will be taking a while to getting to answer your post....if I decide to at all.

[safdar]

...if I decide to at all.

Hah... have you finally succumbed to my incessant pestering. I'm bored as well.

I give the Chinese lunar explorer Chang’e-1 more value then …with the world first Moon-globe Microwave emission map, and world first most detailed 3D lunar map ever.

[irfan_kashmir]

well i think when it comes to investment China prefers india, i was recently reading China is setting up Export processing zones with india  

and Chins investment in india is going to touch 75 $ billion , where as china is not even invested more than $5 billion in Pakistan ....

[macau boy]

well i think when it comes to investment China prefers india, i was recently reading China is setting up Export processing zones with india  

and Chins investment in india is going to touch 75 $ billion , where as china is not even invested more than $5 billion in Pakistan ....

You cannot compare the two bilateral relationships, they are not at the same level. China and Pakistan are like brothers of the same family. There are things China would only do for Pakistan and no one else. Ditto for Pakistan. Phase II of Gwadar is under construction, the Sino-Pak energy corridor is getting start and a study into building the Kashi/Gwadar high speed rail link has been fund. There is FTA between China and Pakistan. Things with India are quite different. India has a larger economy with a population over 1.2 billion. It is natural that they have more buying power, consume more and be able to produce more. The trade balance is heavily in China's favor which reflects one fact - India is buying lots of ordinary goods and services that they need but unable to produce at home.

[Metanoia]

When it comes to investments everybody prefer everyone. 

[irfan_kashmir]

http://www.dawn.com/...n-reaches-orbit

 

NEW DELHI: India's Mars Orbiter Mission on Wednesday successfully entered orbit around the Red Planet on its first attempt, Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced.

 

​Chinese brothers please send your men to moon soon else looks like india is overtaking china in space race 

[btruant2002]

The Chinese Mars attempt failed only because the Russian rocket exploded on liftoff.... China does possess interplanetary capabilities and it is only a matter of time.... In any case, congrats to Indian agency ISRO for getting it right the first time!

 

http://www.dawn.com/...n-reaches-orbit

 

NEW DELHI: India's Mars Orbiter Mission on Wednesday successfully entered orbit around the Red Planet on its first attempt, Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced.

 

​Chinese brothers please send your men to moon soon else looks like india is overtaking china in space race 

[Dizasta]

400 million indians live below the poverty-line. Meaning they can only afford a basic meal in 24 hours, if that. Which translates into, the largest concentration of poverty stricken people anywhere in the world, is india. In other words, the largest population of people living below the poverty-line, is in india. 

 

700 million indians have no toilets in their houses, huts or slums. Which means, that 700 million indians defecate the streets of india. Making india the filthiest country in the world. And it also makes india, the only country with the highest probability of infections, diseases and viruses. 

 

All this, and the educated illiterates of india, still want to go to Mars. 

 

My advice to Martians ...... blow these indians out of your orbit, before they plague and defecate your planet!!

[irfan_kashmir]

well we can definitely make fun of india's poverty but we can not ignore this achievement from indians  any way congrats to indians .

i wish we should work with china and send some probe to moon one day .

[irfan_kashmir]

Again when Chinese premier visited india last month he promised $30 billion investment , i want to warn my chinese brothers its useless investment 

indians will never appreciate it ...  

[macau boy]

Again when Chinese premier visited india last month he promised $30 billion investment , i want to warn my chinese brothers its useless investment 

indians will never appreciate it ...  

Thanks for warning, my friend!

We know that bahrat are rats, or snakes or mongrel mixture of both.