470 replies to this topic

[Caesar]

Fellows look at this--it is very impressive, don't miss it!

Indian Future Soldier Systems

[lanc]

Talk is cheap.

The interview you posted was from June 2008. And its obvious to even the worst critic of the Tejas that further progress has been made since then.

While official IOC clearance wouldn't be coming until Tejas is transferred to the IAF in Dec this year, the ASR parameters were achieved in Dabolim trials in Nov-Dec last year.

Provide link mentioning someone direct from ADA.

Most reports are through the ADA's PR department.

This is a scan of an article from the Vayu mag prior to the sea level trials at Dabolim.

http://img706.imageshack.us/i/21122009082.jpg/

After the trials:

http://www.navhindtimes.in/news/goa-news/6...s-flight-trials
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/go...how/5316448.cms

[Aliph Ahmed]

The interview you posted was from June 2008. And its obvious to even the worst critic of the Tejas that further progress has been made since then.

While official IOC clearance wouldn't be coming until Tejas is transferred to the IAF in Dec this year, the ASR parameters were achieved in Dabolim trials in Nov-Dec last year.



Most reports are through the ADA's PR department.

This is a scan of an article from the Vayu mag prior to the sea level trials at Dabolim.

http://img706.imageshack.us/i/21122009082.jpg/

After the trials:

http://www.navhindtimes.in/news/goa-news/6...s-flight-trials
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/go...how/5316448.cms

The closest model of LCA to IOC is LSP3 which as of today has not even flown yet.  I am not an Indian bhangee so try to fool someone else.

Also, no where in your links it says that LCA reached IOC in November 2009!!! as per your links.  says it is progressing towards IOC!! Mind you, LCA has been progressing towards IOC since 2001  

My stand stays: LCA as of today is a piece of junk and will be eaten by K8 trainer if put in combat against each other !!!

Having said that, a flawed plane design can only go so far. LCA was always doomed to be a failure !!

[Danish Moazzam]

both links report IOC in Dec 2010, so how come u claim IOC in NOV-DEC 09 ?????. 1 more year of failed hopes.

I guess LCA is like load shedding in Pakistan, One doesn't get finished the other doesn't gets completed we only hear dates, dates and more dates.

[lanc]

The closest model of LCA to IOC is LSP3 which as of today has not even flown yet.

'Closest model of LCA'? If you're referring to the closest to the final configuration, then yes. The PV-3 was closer than the PV-2. The LSP-2 is closer compared to the PV-3. And the LSP-3 when it flies will be closer than the LSP-2. Eight aircraft are expected in the LSP series.

I am not an Indian bhangee so try to fool someone else.

Which is no reason not to preserve the decencies of a debate.

Also, no where in your links it says that LCA reached IOC in November 2009!!! as per your links.  says it is progressing towards IOC!! Mind you, LCA has been progressing towards IOC since 2001  

The flight trials are complete and if you'll go through the first link... it clearly mentions the 'flight envelope' of the IOC will be(was) achieved in the Dabolim trials, which were a success.

My point was in reference to your statement that the Tejas is limited to 6Gs and a critical AoA of 17 degrees(which was from a June 2008 article).

My stand stays: LCA as of today is a piece of junk and will be eaten by K8 trainer if put in combat against each other !!!

The F-35, still quite a while away from production, will be eaten up by the K8 trainer too for that matter.

Having said that, a flawed plane design can only go so far. LCA was always doomed to be a failure !!

And what design flaws are you referring to?

[lanc]

both links report IOC in Dec 2010, so how come u claim IOC in NOV-DEC 09 ?????. 1 more year of failed hopes.

The IOC officially wouldn't be achieved till the production aircraft is handed over to the IAF. My post was purely about the Tejas achieving the required flight characteristics and the end of flight trials. Only the integration of the radar to the aircraft remains, which will be achieved in the LSP-3 aircraft. It was projected to have been flying last year, I don't know when it will finally do so. Should be pretty soon though.

I guess LCA is like load shedding in Pakistan, One doesn't get finished the other doesn't gets completed we only hear dates, dates and more dates.

The Tejas has been plagued with bad project management and the US sanctions pushed the development cycle back five years. Tying the engine and radar development to the aircraft's progress was a very bad idea, later rectified at the cost of further delays. But, thanks to the IAF's repeated pushed and shoves, the final product should qualitatively be a pretty competitive product.

[Aliph Ahmed]

^^^^

Provide a link directly mentioning someone by name from ADA saying that LCA has completed IOC in November of 2009, otherwise you lie !!

or did the Indian Bhangees reduced the ASR again to 6gs and AoA of 20 Degree ?

Also prove that those fuel tanks LCA is carrying are full and not empty.

[lanc]

Provide a link directly mentioning someone by name from ADA saying that LCA has completed IOC in November of 2009, otherwise you lie !!

Well P.S. Subramanyam doesn't give regular interviews, so media reports are the only way of determining the progress of the aircraft.

or did the Indian Bhangees reduced the ASR again to 6gs and AoA of 20 Degree ?

In the same vein, can you give any link that proves the aircraft's performance hasn't changed since June 2008? Especially since the LSP-2 with the F 404 IN started flights after that time.

Also prove that those fuel tanks LCA is carrying are full and not empty.

What fuel tanks?

[Aliph Ahmed]

Well P.S. Subramanyam doesn't give regular interviews, so media reports are the only way of determining the progress of the aircraft. In the same vein, can you give any link that proves the aircraft's performance hasn't changed since June 2008? Especially since the LSP-2 with the F 404 IN started flights after that time.



What fuel tanks?

Absence of any informational link from ADA is prove itself that LCA's performance hasnt changed. I know you Indian bhangees very well who start jumping up at the instant.

I am backing my arguement with links. You are the one who is claiming that LCA has improved so the onus to prove is on you!!

Provide a link that the fuel tanks LCA is seen in the pictures are full with fuel and not empty because I think they are empty and untill you provide a link, I will continue to think that they are empty.

[lanc]

Absence of any informational link from ADA is prove itself that LCA's performance hasnt changed.

No its not. And media reports about the Tejas are sourced through the ADA.

I know you Indian bhangees very well who start jumping up at the instant.

Rhetoric diminishes the quality of even a valid argument.

I am backing my arguement with links. You are the one who is claiming that LCA has improved so the onus to prove is on you!!

I don't believe any links are necessary to prove that the LSP-2 is flying with an upgraded engine. So even if we disagree on the degree of improved performance, it is obvious that LSP-2's performance is better than the PV-3(which was mostly used for the previous trials) .

Provide a link that the fuel tanks LCA is seen in the pictures are full with fuel and not empty because I think they are empty and untill you provide a link, I will continue to think that they are empty.

What I mean is what is the relevance of whether the fuel tanks are empty or full. Are you asking whether the Tejas has the capability to use fuel tanks? Or something else?

[lanc]

My stand stays: LCA as of today is a piece of junk and will be eaten by K8 trainer if put in combat against each other !!!

I just read up on the K8 trainer. As far as I can see, it doesn't have an air intercept radar. Which means with the DASH & R-73 the Tejas will probably come up tops in combat.

[Aliph Ahmed]

I just read up on the K8 trainer. As far as I can see, it doesn't have an air intercept radar. Which means with the DASH & R-73 the Tejas will probably come up tops in combat.

LCA as of today also dont have an intercept radar.  

Plus I think it is flying with empty fuel tanks.

[lanc]

LCA as of today also dont have an intercept radar.  

Very true. But, the Elbit DASH and R-73 are a potent combination for WVR.

Plus I think it is flying with empty fuel tanks.

If you'll got through the interview that you quoted, P.S. Subramanyam mentions how flight hours have increased compared to the number of flights, because of longer sorties since the integration of fuel tanks.

[Aliph Ahmed]

Very true. But, the Elbit DASH and R-73 are a potent combination for WVR.

If you'll got through the interview that you quoted, P.S. Subramanyam mentions how flight hours have increased compared to the number of flights, because of longer sorties since the integration of fuel tanks.

33.5 minutes of average flight time with empty fuel tanks is very much a possibility !! Prove that LCA is flying with full fuel tanks.


Now that you agree that LCA is not currently flying with a radar there is no way LCA in its current form can stand against a K8 trainer.

[lanc]

33.5 minutes of average flight time with empty fuel tanks is very much a possibility !! Prove that LCA is flying with full fuel tanks.

Perhaps on a regular sortie the Tejas flies on internal fuel. But, it has flown plenty of sorties while using fuel tanks as well. The interview refers to this explicitly.

BTW what time period is the average 33.5 minute figure from?

Now that you agree that LCA is not currently flying with a radar there is no way LCA in its current form can stand against a K8 trainer.

Like I said the Tejas has a lethal edge in the form of the DASH and R-73 combination despite the radar not being integrated on the current production units of the Tejas.

[Aliph Ahmed]

Perhaps on a regular sortie the Tejas flies on internal fuel. But, it has flown plenty of sorties while using fuel tanks as well. The interview refers to this explicitly.

BTW what time period is the average 33.5 minute figure from?

895 flights totalling 500 hours = 33.5 minutes per flight.  Link

I am starting to wonder if the 33.5 minute flight is with the full fuel tanks as the plane is two tonnes heavier. If that is the case than it will have less than approximately 20 minutes of in air time trying to dodge the K8 trainer and then the pilot ejecting due to no fuel.  

LCA as of today after 28 years in development is a piece of junk and stands no chance against a K8 trainer.

[lanc]

895 flights totalling 500 hours = 33.5 minutes per flight.  Link

Most flights till 2008 by the Tejas were on internal fuel. Use of fuel tanks is a recent development. The average flight time over the last two years will be significantly higher.

I am starting to wonder if the 33.5 minute flight is with the full fuel tanks as the plane is two tonnes heavier.

Answered above.

If that is the case than it will have less than approximately 20 minutes of in air time trying to dodge the K8 trainer and then the pilot ejecting due to no fuel.  

The range of the Tejas on internal fuel is roughly equivalent to the range of the K-8 with two drop tanks. So, the scenario is likely to be the other way round.

Also, the Tejas has a thrust to weight ratio(wet) that's twice that of the K-8.

LCA as of today after 28 years in development is a piece of junk and stands no chance against a K8 trainer.

On the contrary, the K-8 doesn't stand much of a chance against the R-73 and Elbit DASH system, even in the absence of the Tejas' radar.

[Aliph Ahmed]

The range of the Tejas on internal fuel is roughly equivalent to the range of the K-8 with two drop tanks. So, the scenario is likely to be the other way round.

Also, the Tejas has a thrust to weight ratio(wet) that's twice that of the K-8.

Please back your claim with links because I think you are just making them up ?

[diabolo]

LCA is a failed and mis-managed project. Even if they succeed in the next few years, its already out-dated by more than a decade.

Maybe they should not induct right away, and try to upgrade based on the current technologies and reqirements.... Errr..... Wait a minute , that will take another 20 years..... Now REPEAT.

[Aliph Ahmed]

LCA is a failed and mis-managed project. Even if they succeed in the next few years, its already out-dated by more than a decade.

Maybe they should not induct right away, and try to upgrade based on the current technologies and reqirements.... Errr..... Wait a minute , that will take another 20 years..... Now REPEAT.

Forget LCA MK1, Even for LCA MK2, they havent even selected the engine yet, then there will be price negotiations, then there will be production time, then there will be installation process requiring major changes to fuselage and wings and etc, then there will be software updates, then there will be another round of testing, then there will be more time needed for producing the first block of MK2 and that is if all goes smoothly!! Imgaine if there are hiccups again which I am willing to bet my Canadian Dollar that based on the history of DODO, there will be. You are looking at around 2025 +.....

[blueazure]

At a recent function at HAL in Bangalore, the PSU was displaying Tejas, its indigenously produced aircraft, and some other new projects to Defence Minister A K Antony. While the air show started off on a good note, as soon as the much-maligned Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) rolled on to the runway for take-off, it started raining, prompting HAL to call off the flying display. The LCA’s “failure” to take off in drizzle prompted an official to quip that if the enemy knew about this “weakness”, it would launch an attack on India only during the monsoons.

?????

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rough-we...for-lca/380530/

[must7]

895 flights totalling 500 hours = 33.5 minutes per flight.  Link

I am starting to wonder if the 33.5 minute flight is with the full fuel tanks as the plane is two tonnes heavier. If that is the case than it will have less than approximately 20 minutes of in air time trying to dodge the K8 trainer and then the pilot ejecting due to no fuel.  

LCA as of today after 28 years in development is a piece of junk and stands no chance against a K8 trainer.

What you are forgetting the millions of JV contracts awarded to the BAe & Israeli's ! Just recently the whole aircraft is put through loads loads of Isareli JV & funny it is still not getting mass produced like our JF-17.

I remember 10 years back how the Indian fans were singing songs of LCA & how outdate our JF-17 was claimed and people like Lanc use to come up with more and more posts of their govt. to back up their claims !

Ooops .. I forgot the interview of the IAF test pilot "LCA is better than Mirage 2000H in handling" !

[must7]

QUOTE
At a recent function at HAL in Bangalore, the PSU was displaying Tejas, its indigenously produced aircraft, and some other new projects to Defence Minister A K Antony. While the air show started off on a good note, as soon as the much-maligned Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) rolled on to the runway for take-off, it started raining, prompting HAL to call off the flying display. The LCA’s “failure” to take off in drizzle prompted an official to quip that if the enemy knew about this “weakness”, it would launch an attack on India only during the monsoons.



?????

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rough-we...for-lca/380530/

No .. really ... ! God !

[khawarkhan]

lollllllllll

monsoon, barish, flu, no LCA flights.
summer, very hot, heat strokechance, No LCA flights.
winter, catching cold or pneumonia, no LCA flights.
Autmn, sard,zard udass shamien, no LCA flights.

yeh LCA hai ya k koi bollywoods b grade heroinnnn

jokes aside did any body know about MK3 secrate project just go and check. Pakistani only talk and talks.

MK3 on assembly line :

http://www.paulvivian.co.uk/Images/Paper%20Plane.jpg

[blueazure]

^^ man  it was hard to believe, but coming from the indian express, wat can u say :-)


lanc? where r u?

please tell us for the sake of aviation that this is BS, ?? please tell that they forgot the rain tyres back at DRDo??

[Evil Angel]

lollllllllll

monsoon, barish, flu, no LCA flights.
summer, very hot, heat strokechance, No LCA flights.
winter, catching cold or pneumonia, no LCA flights.
Autmn, sard,zard udass shamien, no LCA flights.

yeh LCA hai ya k koi bollywoods b grade heroinnnn

jokes aside did any body know about MK3 secrate project just go and check. Pakistani only talk and talks.

MK3 on assembly line :

http://www.paulvivian.co.uk/Images/Paper%20Plane.jpg

If I were Advani commenting on that, I would have said, "IT'S ALL BECAUSE OF THE ISI AND ISI IS BEHIND THE FAILURES OF LCA, ARJUNK, TRISHUL AND WHATEVER SHORT COMINGS WE HAVE".

[lanc]

Please back your claim with links because I think you are just making them up ?

The Tejas' range from all information released so far approaches 2000km. The K-8's range with two drop tanks is 2140km.

But, the K-8's biggest weakness in WVR is its lack of a high off-boresight missile or HMS.

http://www.pac.org.pk/amfsite-final/k8jettrainer.html

[lanc]

?????

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rough-we...for-lca/380530/

Can't comment since I don't know which one of the Tejas aircrafts was on the tarmac. In any case, in the test phase all trials were held in controlled weather conditions, which range from hot weather tests in Nagpur, cold weather tests in Leh and sea-level tests at Dabolim. And the series production aircraft have been flown in rain and rough weather(Bangalore).

[Aliph Ahmed]

jokes aside did any body know about MK3 secrate project just go and check. Pakistani only talk and talks.

MK3 on assembly line :

http://www.paulvivian.co.uk/Images/Paper%20Plane.jpg

I swear, I cant stop laughing !!!

    

[Aliph Ahmed]

The Tejas' range from all information released so far approaches 2000km. The K-8's range with two drop tanks is 2140km.

But, the K-8's biggest weakness in WVR is its lack of a high off-boresight missile or HMS.

http://www.pac.org.pk/amfsite-final/k8jettrainer.html

I said provide a link to back up your claim and you are giving me a link for K8 only and What range of 2,000 km are you talking about? LCA has hardly flown for 33.5 minutes.

Provide a link from ADA that LCA has " done " 2,000 KM.
Also provide a link from ADA that LCA is flying with full fuel tanks.
Also provide a link from ADA that LCA has reached its IOC in November of 2009.

[Pak-Eye]

The Tejas' range from all information released so far approaches 2000km. The K-8's range with two drop tanks is 2140km.

But, the K-8's biggest weakness in WVR is its lack of a high off-boresight missile or HMS.

http://www.pac.org.pk/amfsite-final/k8jettrainer.html

Oh God, we seriously are discussing K-8 vs LCA  

lol @Aliph

[Aliph Ahmed]

Oh God, we seriously are discussing K-8 vs LCA  

lol @Aliph

Seriously, I fail to see how an over weight, carying empty fuel tanks, no radar, under powered, cant pull more than 6gs, AoA achieved to date only 20 degrees, Not able to meet even the " revised " ASR LCA MK1 is going to stand against a K8 trainer if pitted today.

LCA as of today even after 28 years of development  is a piece of junk that has no chance aginst a K8 trainer !!

LCA is like a big fat boy who cant move as fast as he can think.  

[kaz89]

Oh God, we seriously are discussing K-8 vs LCA  

lol @Aliph

Lol Aliph has addled lanc's brain

[kaz89]

QUOTE
At a recent function at HAL in Bangalore, the PSU was displaying Tejas, its indigenously produced aircraft, and some other new projects to Defence Minister A K Antony. While the air show started off on a good note, as soon as the much-maligned Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) rolled on to the runway for take-off, it started raining, prompting HAL to call off the flying display. The LCA’s “failure” to take off in drizzle prompted an official to quip that if the enemy knew about this “weakness”, it would launch an attack on India only during the monsoons.



?????

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/rough-we...for-lca/380530/

No .. really ... ! God !

Man you guys dont see anything, ISI has launched a secret operation to make india boil more water, which in turn will evaporate into the clouds therefore causing an increase of monsoon rain.

[Aliph Ahmed]

Lol Aliph has addled lanc's brain

This is first sign of him having the ability to accept ground reality. Most Indians dont even have that. Believe me, deep inside he knows that I am telling the truth.  

[lanc]

I said provide a link to back up your claim and you are giving me a link for K8 only and What range of 2,000 km are you talking about? LCA has hardly flown for 33.5 minutes.
Provide a link from ADA that LCA has " done " 2,000 KM.
Also provide a link from ADA that LCA is flying with full fuel tanks.
Also provide a link from ADA that LCA has reached its IOC in November of 2009.

Tell you what...

All you've posted so far is one link that's over one and a half years old. Since, its your claim that the LSP-2 is limited to 6Gs and 20 degrees AoA, please back it up with a link. Do so and I'll give you a link for each of the quoted points.

[lanc]

Oh God, we seriously are discussing K-8 vs LCA

lol @Aliph

Sure if you want to why not. It may a ridiculous prospect, but no harm done.

I'll repeat my statement, which was conveniently ignored by Aliph, since the K-8 beating the Tejas is too lovely an idea to let go.

Even minus a radar, the Elbit DASH and R-73 combination more or less ensure the Tejas wins hands down.

[Aliph Ahmed]

Tell you what...

All you've posted so far is one link that's over one and a half years old. Since, its your claim that the LSP-2 is limited to 6Gs and 20 degrees AoA, please back it up with a link. Do so and I'll give you a link for each of the quoted points.

I provided a link directly from ADA. I am also claiming that things have not improved.

You on the other hand are disputing and saying things have improved but are not providing any link.  So the onus to prove is on you.

[Aliph Ahmed]

Sure if you want to why not. It may a ridiculous prospect, but no harm done.

I'll repeat my statement, which was conveniently ignored by Aliph, since the K-8 beating the Tejas is too lovely an idea to let go.

Even minus a radar, the Elbit DASH and R-73 combination more or less ensure the Tejas wins hands down.

LCA must be the only plane on earth that doesnt require a radar to provide inputs to the Elbit DASH. because as per the following link and common knowledge, Elbit Dash or any other DASH require inputs from the radar that LCA currently dont have.  

Link

I repeat, LCA as of today even after 28 years of development is a piece of junk and can not stand against a K8 trainer if pitted against today.

[lanc]

This is first sign of him having the ability to accept ground reality. Most Indians dont even have that. Believe me, deep inside he knows that I am telling the truth.  

Actually, I originally was an ardent critic of the LCA program. Delay after delay, until 2007 only prototypes were flying, didn't seem as if anything was going right.

Four factors changed that perception.

1. Its being equipped with the Elta E/M-2052 AESA.

2. For all the talk of it being underpowered, I was surprised to learn its thrust to weight ratio(1.02) was higher than the JF-17's(0.99). And that's without the off the shelf(EJ-200/F414) engines that will equip it third squadron onwards.

3. Carbon composite compose 95% of the surface area. The gains in RCS would be invaluable.

3. It was originally intended as a MiG-21 replacement and intended to form the backbone of the IAF. The induction of 230(maybe 280) Su-30MKIs changed that equation entirely. So, the idea that the India's air defence doesn't crucially rely on the Tejas allows me to see the aircraft in perspective, and evaluate whether the $1.2 billion spent was worth it relative to most other expenditures. I believe it was/is.