128 replies to this topic

[viper`in`style]

There is one benefit that Pakistan would derive from recognizing Israel, not being targetted. Turkey's recognition and cooperation allowed it the third largest fleet of Vipers in the world! It also allowed it to have a fighting chance of becoming a member of the European Union. If Pakistan recognizes Israel, it would most certainly get that rat-country off our backs and allow us unlimited amount of open space cooperation with China, which would see Pakistan's economy truely boom!

On the other hand, we are the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and being so, it is prohibitive for us to deal with Jews because of their betrayel and trechory with Allah!

Well my question is what u think diz bro about the position of rat #### country after the recognisition of israel by Pakistan and can we trust on jews that after recognistion they cant invlove in anti pak activites with india i mean what are the sanerio after recognistion between india and israel?? most of people think that in islamic world we lose our identity after recognisition of israel??

[Dizasta]

I do not argue the moral implications of recognizing Israel, as opposed to the leaders of those Islamic Countries who've already recognized Israel, namely Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt. My only question is ...... can we better utilize this to our advantage than squander it at our own loss. Where the question of trust arises, well there is only one rule D.T.A - (Don't Trust Anyone). Its as simple as that, which completely evaporates the question of trusting Jews and rather gives way to another question on how best to manupilate it to our advantage.

Objective is to secure Pakistan, to secure a brighter future for Pakistanis and by doing so we effectively eliminate the growing indian disease. Which allows us to practically enhance the cooperation with China and grow the region in stability with the development in Afghanistan and the Central Asian States. It would allow the region to rival that of modern day Europe and offer limitless opportunities for the people of Regional Central Asia ..... a region which both Pakistan and Afghanistan truely and in reality, belong to!

[viper`in`style]

I do not argue the moral implications of recognizing Israel, as opposed to the leaders of those Islamic Countries who've already recognized Israel, namely Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt. My only question is ...... can we better utilize this to our advantage than squander it at our own loss. Where the question of trust arises, well there is only one rule D.T.A - (Don't Trust Anyone). Its as simple as that, which completely evaporates the question of trusting Jews and rather gives way to another question on how best to manupilate it to our advantage.

Objective is to secure Pakistan, to secure a brighter future for Pakistanis and by doing so we effectively eliminate the growing indian disease. Which allows us to practically enhance the cooperation with China and grow the region in stability with the development in Afghanistan and the Central Asian States. It would allow the region to rival that of modern day Europe and offer limitless opportunities for the people of Regional Central Asia ..... a region which both Pakistan and Afghanistan truely and in reality, belong to!

Well i think only musharaf regime can recognise israel nothing else..else gahails are those who love to use black sun glass at night like gahail chodriesss they even dont know that sun glass is for a day time So about ur question well i think we can utilize it if we want to but what musharaf said we will think about the recognisition of israel after the resolution of palestinian dispute.. SO suppose palesnanian dispute resolved and we recognise israel..what i think we can got good position much better then turkey... our economy should rise....and we can gain more sampathies of US which is realy vital for us but the question is the recognition of israel will distrub the islamic culture in Pakistan?? and what about the reaction of some pakistni gahali peopless???? and what about the internal situtation?? the recognisitoon of israel by Pakistan is the soloution of all the problems what i think..

[Yahya]

our policy is, isreal withdraw back to pre 67 lines, grant palestine the status of a sovrgien nation, and allow for her capital to be located in jerouselam. then we will recognise israel.

this is not a major request by any means. this is quite a moderate request.



india getting technology from israel is not that big of a issue as our press make it out to be...or as our press are influenced to make it out to be, by certain political movements in Pakistan, we at the present are more ready then we have ever been against india...ever!

There is one benefit that Pakistan would derive from recognizing Israel, not being targetted. Turkey's recognition and cooperation allowed it the third largest fleet of Vipers in the world! It also allowed it to have a fighting chance of becoming a member of the European Union. If Pakistan recognizes Israel, it would most certainly get that rat-country off our backs and allow us unlimited amount of open space cooperation with China, which would see Pakistan's economy truely boom!

On the other hand, we are the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and being so, it is prohibitive for us to deal with Jews because of their betrayel and trechory with Allah!

which is useless as they are not willing to use them, their internal situation is at a boiling point and dozens of turkish members of the turkey israel friendship thingi have resigned due to pressure from grassroots level. BTW the f16s where from cold war also....Turkey has had nueclear tipped ICBMs as well!!


such a move would alienate the peoples from the gov, and also serve as a negative point to Pakistan. this might hinder our sales of Al-khalid tanks and JF-17 fighters among the arab world, as well as significantly reduce our influence in the arab world...all such step would do is to alienate us from our brothers and put a wedge between us.

[Azmat]

Well Israel should never be recognised. Firstly, the moral argument is that Israel was created ILLEGALLY on Palestinian land helped by the British imperialists. The Palestinians were NEVER asked for their permission to create this Jewish state on their land. Would you like it if someone created a state on your land only for themselves and their own kind? No you would not.

Not only that, but nearly 1 million Palestinian Arabs were kicked out of their land by Jewish fascists before and after the creation of Israel. These Arabs and their descendents now number nearly 7 million, and they are still not allowed to take back their land and homes by the Jewish fascists, instead, they are forced to live in squalid refugee camps where they have been living for over 50 years, while Israel allows a Jew from France, Uk, Us, Australia, South Africa or whereever to emmigrate to Israel ("Aliya") and live on this land which was cleansed of it's Palestinian inhabitants. Should Muslims recognise this injustice and condone it?

Therefore recognising Israel would mean recognising this imperialism which has been imposed on our Muslim lands.

Here iare a few excellent websites showing the history of the Palestine conflict:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/

http://www.al-awda.org/

http://www.plands.org/


Secondly, israel regards Muslim states as potential threats to their existence. They know the policy of some governments which recognise Israel does not reflect the attitudes of the common Muslim people. They know that if a truly representative Muslim government ever came into power anywhere, Israel would be under threat. That is why Israel can never be the friend of a Muslim nation because they regard us as a threat.

That is why Israel has been selling weapons to India so that it can suppress the Kashmiri people as well as to potentially take on Pakistan. This would not stop if Israel was recognised by Pakistan. Muslim nations are an intrinsic threat to Israel, as are they to our interests.

Thirdly, the Quran tells us to fight in Allah's (swt) cause those who fight against us, and to drive out those people who drove us out. What did Israel do to our Palestinian brothers? They kicked them out of their land to create a little jewish fascist state. We are obliged as Muslims to fight this injustice and zulum (oppression), but by recognising Israel, we would be allowing this injustice to be condoned.

Have the Muslim people lost their dignity and self-respect to such an extent that we allow these Jewish fascists to steal our land and let them get away with it because Israel can offer material benefits which we ourselves can create if we educated outselves?

[faizan khaliq]

Pakistan recognition wont change threat perception of israel nad role of jewish lobby would remain negative in US there fore losses are more than gains.Losses are obvious

[Web Master]

Pakistan recognition wont change threat perception of israel nad role of jewish lobby would remain negative in US there fore losses are more than gains.Losses are obvious

what kind of losses are you pointing to?

Edited by Web Master, 24 October 2006 - 05:40 PM.

[Pathfinder]

On the contrary i personnaly would like to recognise Israel Only if Palastine can rightfully exist as a state with East Jerusalum as its capital untill then there will be violence and I think we should all step back from recognising Israel. Lets Face it Palastine today exists in thin air with the land being shortend every day. as for losses and gains we have lost or gained nothing even when we did not accept Israel.

[faizan khaliq]

what kind of losses are you pointing to?

1.compromise over the principals,Israel is created by transplanting europeans on palestinian lands
2.Though GOP is hardly popular in the middle east but with recognition we will lose face with the arab masses
3.Indo israeli nexus will not be broken with recognition
4.After US pullout from iraq the arab tyrants would be history.
no need of any haste we should let the water flow in Tigris soon we will find out what should be our policy regarding middle Israel.

[shadowofbeautiful]

Diz,
If we go by the same logic then we recognize alot of country who would ditch us for good money from Indian arms deal (france now even usa).

few interesting things i would like to add here.
1)The darter series of missiles , R-darter and A-darter are same as Derby and Python-5 form Israel. Pakistan allegedly has R-darter or T-darter (modified version).
2)Alot of new chinese tech has been borrowed and developed with the help of israelis, which eventually helped us and is still helping us.
Now Israel sell to India cause it needs money. trust me they will be very forth coming if we recognize them.

However this is only one side of the argument. I have heard alot about israeli efforts on depriving us of our nuclear capability and the conspiracy regarding attck on Pak nuclear facilities. I have no way to check the veracity but if that is true then we need to be very cautious of them and should have some kind of deterent against them.

Other than that i have nothing agianst israel and beleive, that they should live peacfully with palestinians. We will have more leverage if we engage them and we can probably use it to help palestinians.

Maglo..... no disrespect meant or anything.... but cautious is what Pakistan Govt has been over the years, the reason we dont go for recognition of Israel as a state are really obvious, we have initiated the first move which is more then what should be expected off Pakistan Govt. It is upto Israel to accept or resolve the existance of two states.

Even in his book Musharraf admits that we have no porblems having diplomatic relationship with Israel as long as the creation of Palestine is possible, which i think is a fair and just demand.

1.compromise over the principals,Israel is created by transplanting europeans on palestinian lands
2.Though GOP is hardly popular in the middle east but with recognition we will lose face with the arab masses
3.Indo israeli nexus will not be broken with recognition
4.After US pullout from iraq the arab tyrants would be history.
no need of any haste we should let the water flow in Tigris soon we will find out what should be our policy regarding middle Israel.

loosing face to arab masses, im assuming you have never been to an arab country have you? otherwise you would not be saying that.

as for Arab tyrants, which tyrants are you talking about, Egyptians are pretty much happy with their Govt, so are Jordanians and Syrians.

Valid point you have on number three though, it would take more then recognising Israel to be ever stop a jew from making money, the choosen ones need not have restrictions over them on how and what they sell to who , they have been back stabbing US for ages, if US fails to see it, its because they can afford to.

We on the other hand have a lot to loose compared to what we gain with diplomatic relationship with israel.

[GreenBeret]

Talks on new Israeli government


Israeli PM Ehud Olmert has met his main coalition partner to discuss a deal allowing a right-wing party, Yisrael Beitenu, to join the government. Reports say Mr Olmert and the Labour leader, Amir Peretz, were expected to discuss terms under which Labour would stay in the reshaped government.

The terms are believed to include proposals for improving benefits for Arab citizens of Israel.

Israeli Arabs condemned the plan to let Yisrael Beitenu into the coalition.

Yisrael Beitenu, which is led by Avigdor Lieberman, advocates the transfer of some Arab towns out of the state of Israel.

Mr Lieberman has also accused some Israeli Arabs of treason for speaking to the Palestinian militant group, Hamas.

Boycott call

Azmi Bishara, an Israeli Arab member of the parliament, said: "Israel can't pride itself for being the sole democracy in the Middle East and take in someone so radical [as Mr Lieberman]."

"World governments should boycott the Israeli government over Lieberman as well as its policies against the Palestinians."

Correspondents say that Mr Olmert has decided he needs to broaden his coalition and ensure his political survival in the wake of what is widely seen as a debacle in Lebanon.

For the Israeli government, the inclusion of Yisrael Beitenu in the governing coalition will be a significant move to the right less than seven months after the general election seemed to strengthen the centre of Israeli politics.

But there is no immediate sign this will bring a change of policy.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ast/6084738.stm

[shadowofbeautiful]

Talks on new Israeli government
Israeli PM Ehud Olmert has met his main coalition partner to discuss a deal allowing a right-wing party, Yisrael Beitenu, to join the government. Reports say Mr Olmert and the Labour leader, Amir Peretz, were expected to discuss terms under which Labour would stay in the reshaped government.

The terms are believed to include proposals for improving benefits for Arab citizens of Israel.

Israeli Arabs condemned the plan to let Yisrael Beitenu into the coalition.

Yisrael Beitenu, which is led by Avigdor Lieberman, advocates the transfer of some Arab towns out of the state of Israel.

Mr Lieberman has also accused some Israeli Arabs of treason for speaking to the Palestinian militant group, Hamas.

Boycott call

Azmi Bishara, an Israeli Arab member of the parliament, said: "Israel can't pride itself for being the sole democracy in the Middle East and take in someone so radical [as Mr Lieberman]."

"World governments should boycott the Israeli government over Lieberman as well as its policies against the Palestinians."

Correspondents say that Mr Olmert has decided he needs to broaden his coalition and ensure his political survival in the wake of what is widely seen as a debacle in Lebanon.

For the Israeli government, the inclusion of Yisrael Beitenu in the governing coalition will be a significant move to the right less than seven months after the general election seemed to strengthen the centre of Israeli politics.

But there is no immediate sign this will bring a change of policy.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ast/6084738.stm

what has that got to do with anything ???
in what ways do you think it is relevant to the topic

[faizan khaliq]

Maglo..... no disrespect meant or anything.... but cautious is what Pakistan Govt has been over the years, the reason we dont go for recognition of Israel as a state are really obvious, we have initiated the first move which is more then what should be expected off Pakistan Govt. It is upto Israel to accept or resolve the existance of two states.

Even in his book Musharraf admits that we have no porblems having diplomatic relationship with Israel as long as the creation of Palestine is possible, which i think is a fair and just demand.
loosing face to arab masses, im assuming you have never been to an arab country have you? otherwise you would not be saying that.

as for Arab tyrants, which tyrants are you talking about, Egyptians are pretty much happy with their Govt, so are Jordanians and Syrians.

Valid point you have on number three though, it would take more then recognising Israel to be ever stop a jew from making money, the choosen ones need not have restrictions over them on how and what they sell to who , they have been back stabbing US for ages, if US fails to see it, its because they can afford to.

We on the other hand have a lot to loose compared to what we gain with diplomatic relationship with israel.

Assuming that arabs are nuts as you seems to be suggesting does not make their political stance on Israel wrong.They need to re-embrace Islam fine but what i talk about is the role of Pakistan as leader of muslim world not puppet of Arabs.
The tyrants like hussni mubarak,king hussein ,saudies etc are there because of American backing but after defeat and retreat from iraq it is most unlikely that yanks will come back into middle east again to save these tyrants from Alqaida,Ikhwanul muslimoon,hizbullah and so many others.Pakistan has to take lead on principals that is why mr.Jinnah once said ''if all the arabs and even rest of the world recognises Israel Pakistan will not''.Apparent reason is not religious but the precedence of transplanting population to support a pre historic claim and throwing out the original inhabitants is wrong and Qaid was right in opposing it.

[Volcano-X]

SALAM

well according to ma opinions we shud not recogniz israel bcoz dey r killing our brothers Palestinians ..moreover dey r backstabbers just lyk BHINDIS ..hmm i remember battle of khaibar and khundaq which dey betrayed da MOU wid Prophet salalahualihi wasalam.. we shud consider fiting israel not making diplomatic friendship wid it ... And palestinian problem is of whole Muslim Umaah not just the Arabs ..we cant solve our issues until we unite and do jehad InshAllah and take masjid e aqsa Back !!!

moreover i consider israel as a illegal son of USA, France and britain.. jews r most disbelivers of Allah and his rasool salalahualihi wasalam....

Allah Hafiz

[Top Gun 101]

The advantages to diplomatic recognition of Israel are enormous, but supporting Israel's stand also has numerous advantages from the viewpoint of the US, particularly where the Jewish lobby is concerned. Very few countries, however, recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital, even the US doesn't do so, & the only ones who do haven't been blessed. The main reason is that such a recognition would be one of occupation. There is only defacto recognition pending the solution to the crisis. One may argue that US recognition would be more than enough. Recognising Israel is one thing, developing relations is another, & so on. It is an endless waltz as a way to picking up to the USA.

[Pakistan First]

The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion
Text and Commentary
Translated by Victor E. Marsden
Biblical quotes added by JAH

Preface
Introduction
Who are the Elders?
1 – The Basic Doctrine
2 – Economic Wars
3 – Methods of Conquest
4 – Materialism Replaces Religion
5 – Despotism and Modern Progress
6 – Take-Over Technique
7 – World-Wide Wars
8 – Provisional Government
9 – Re-education
10 – Preparing for Power
11 – The Totalitarian State
12 – Control of the Press
13 – Distractions
14 – Assault on Religion
15 – Ruthless Suppression
16 – Brainwashing
17 – Abuse of Authority
18 – Arrest of Opponents
19 – Rulers and People
20 – Financial Programme
21 – Loans and Credit
22 – Power of Gold
23 – Instilling Obedience
24 – Qualities of the Ruler

Editorial Note
Comments in the following text related specifically to 'the Jews' which superficially seem to implicate all Jews do not reflect my own attitude to this issue as I have already established. However, these were the words of those individuals quoted and of the publishers who presented the following document many decades ago, and I hesitate to censor them.
This document is meant to challenge hatred, racism and deceit, NOT ferment it.
In the following presentation I have combined two methods of printing the Protocols for ease of use. I have maintained the headings and kept the introductory commentaries as provided by the Marsden translation of Nilus's document. I have also used the method (as employed by Bible translators) of numbering the paragraphs for ease of further referencing.
PREFACE The author of this translation of the famous Protocols was himself a victim of the Revolution. He had lived for many years in Russia and was married to a Russian lady. Among his other activities in Russia he had been for a number of years a Russian Correspondent of the MORNING POST, a position which he occupied when the Revolution broke out, and his vivid descriptions of events in Russia will still be in the recollection of many of the readers of that Journal. Naturally he was singled out for the anger of the Soviet. On the day that Captain Cromie was murdered by Jews, Victor Marsden was arrested and thrown into the Peter-Paul Prison, expecting every day to have his name called out for execution. This, however, he escaped, and eventually he was allowed to return to England very much of a wreck in bodily health. However, he recovered under treatment and the devoted care of his wife and friends. One of the first things he undertook, as soon as he was able, was this translation of the Protocols. Mr. Marsden was eminently well qualified for the work. His intimate acquaintance with Russia, Russian life and the Russian language on the one hand, and his mastery of a terse literary English style on the other, placed him in a position of advantage which few others could claim. The consequence is that we have in his version an eminently readable work, and though the subject-matter is somewhat formless, Mr. Marsden's literary touch reveals the thread running through the twenty-four Protocols.
It may be said with truth that this work was carried out at the cost of Mr. Marsden's own life's blood. He told the writer of this Preface that he could not stand more than an hour at a time of his work on it in the British Museum, as the diabolical spirit of the matter which he was obliged to turn into English made him positively ill.
Mr. Marsden's connection with the MORNING POST was not severed by his return to England, and he was well enough to accept the post of special correspondent of that journal in the suite of H.R.H., the Prince of Wales on his Empire tour. From this he returned with the Prince, apparently in much better health, but within a few days of his landing he was taken suddenly ill, and died after a very brief illness.
May this work be his crowning monument! In it he has performed an immense service to the English-speaking world, and there can be little doubt that it will take its place in the first rank of the English versions of "THE PROTOCOLS of the Meetings of the LEARNED ELDERS OF ZION."
INTRODUCTION Of the Protocols themselves little need be said in the way of introduction. The book in which they are embodied was published by Sergyei Nilus in Russia in 1905. A copy of this is in the British Museum bearing the date of its reception, August 10, 1906. All copies that were known to exist in Russia were destroyed in the Kerensky regime, and under his successors the possession of a copy by anyone in Soviet land was a crime sufficient to ensure the owner's of being shot on sight. The fact is in itself sufficient proof of the genuineness of the Protocols. The Jewish journals, of course, say that they are a forgery, leaving it to be understood that Professor Nilus, who embodied them in a work of his own, had concocted them for his own purposes.
Mr. Henry Ford, in an interview published in the New York WORLD, February 17th, 1921, put the case for Nilus tersely and convincingly thus:
"The only statement I care to make about the Protocols is that they fit in with what is going on. They are sixteen years old, and they have fitted the world situation up to this time. THEY FIT IT NOW." Indeed they do!
The word "Protocol" signifies a précis gummed on to the front of a document, a draft of a document, minutes of proceedings. In this instance, "Protocol" means minutes of the proceedings of the Meetings of the Learned Elders of Zion. These Protocols give the substance of addresses delivered to the innermost circle of the Rulers of Zion. They reveal the converted plan of action of the Jewish Nation developed through the ages and edited by the Elders themselves up to date. Parts and summaries of the plan have been published from time to time during the centuries as the secrets of the Elders have leaked out. The claim of the Jews that the Protocols are forgeries is in itself an admission of their genuineness, for they NEVER ATTEMPT TO ANSWER THE FACTS corresponding to the THREATS which the Protocols contain, and, indeed, the correspondence between prophecy and fulfilment is too glaring to be set aside or obscured. This the Jews well know and therefore evade.
The presumption is strong that the Protocols were issued, or reissued, at the First Zionist Congress held at Basle in 1897 under the presidency of the Father of Modern Zionism, the late Theodore Herzl.
There has been recently published a volume of Herzl's "Diaries," a translation of some passages which appeared in the JEWISH CHRONICLE of July 14, 1922. Herzl gives an account of his first visit to England in 1895, and his conversation with Colonel Goldsmid, a Jew brought up as a Christian, an officer in the English Army, and at heart a Jew Nationalist all the time. Goldsmid suggested to Herzl that the best way of expropriating the English aristocracy, and so destroying their power to protect the people of England against Jew domination, was to put excessive taxes on the land. Herzl thought this an excellent idea, and it is now to be found definitely embodied in Protocol VI!
The above extract from Herzl's diary is an extremely significant bit of evidence bearing on the existence of the Jew World Plot and authenticity of the Protocols, but any reader of intelligence will be able; from his own knowledge of recent history and from his own experience; to confirm the genuineness of every line of them, and it is in the light of this living comment that all readers are invited to study Mr. Marsden's translation of this terribly inhuman document.
And here is another very significant circumstance. The present successor of Herzl, as leader of the Zionist movement, Dr. Weizmann, quoted one of these sayings at the send-off banquet given to Chief Rabbi Hertz on October 6, 1920. The Chief Rabbi was on the point of leaving for HIS Empire tour with H.R.H., the Prince of Wales. And this is the "saying" of the Sages which Dr. Weizmann quoted: "A beneficent protection which God has instituted in the life of the Jew is that He has dispersed him all over the world." (JEWISH GUARDIAN, Oct. 8, 1920.)
Now compare this with the last clause of but one of Protocol XI.
"God has granted to us, His Chosen People, the gift of dispersion, and from this, which appears to all eyes to be our weakness, has come forth all our strength, which has now brought us to the threshold of sovereignty over all the world." The remarkable correspondence between these passages proves several things. It proves that the Learned Elders exist. It proves that Dr. Weizmann knows all about them. It proves that the desire for a "National Home" in Palestine is only camouflage and an infinitesimal part of the Jew's real object. It proves that the Jews of the world have no intention of settling in Palestine or any separate country, and that their annual prayer that they may all meet "Next Year in Jerusalem" is merely a piece of their characteristic make-believe. It also demonstrates that the Jews are now a world menace, and that the Aryan races will have to domicile them permanently out of Europe.
WHO ARE THE ELDERS? This is a secret which has not been revealed. They are the Hidden Hand. They are not the "Board of Deputies" (the Jewish Parliament in England) or the "Universal Israelite Alliance" which sits in Paris. But the late Walter Rathenau of the Allgemeiner Electricitaets Gesellschaft has thrown a little light on the subject and doubtless he was in possession of their names, being, in all likelihood, one of the chief leaders himself. Writing in the WIENER FREIE PRESSE, December 24, 1912, he said: "Three hundred men, each of whom knows all the others, govern the fate of the European continent, and they elect their successors from their entourage." In the year 1844, on the eve of the Jewish Revolution of 1848, Benjamin Disraeli, whose real name was Israel, and who was a "damped," or baptised Jew, published his novel, 'Coningsby', in which occurs this ominous passage: "The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes." And he went on to show that these personages were all Jews.
Now that Providence has brought to the light of day these secret Protocols all men may clearly see the hidden personages specified by Disraeli at work "behind the scenes" of all the Governments. This revelation entails on all white peoples the grave responsibility of examining and revising au fond their attitude towards the Race and Nation which boasts of its survival over all Empires.


Notes
I – "Agentur" and "The Political."
There are two words in this translation which are unusual, the word "agentur" and "political" used as a substantive, agentur appears to be a word adopted from the original and it means the whole body of agents and agencies made use of by the Elders, whether members of the tribe or their Gentile tools.
By "the Political" Mr. Marsden means, not exactly the "body politic" but the entire machinery of politics.
II – The Symbolic Snake of Judaism.
Protocol 3 opens with a reference to the Symbolic Snake of Judaism. In his Epilogue to the 1905 Edition of the Protocols, Nilus gives the following interesting account of this symbol:
"According to the records of secret Jewish Zionism, Solomon and other Jewish learned men already, in 929 B.C., thought out a scheme in theory for a peaceful conquest of the whole universe by Zion. As history developed, this scheme was worked out in detail and completed by men who were subsequently initiated in this question. These learned men decided by peaceful means to conquer the world for Zion with the slyness of the Symbolic Snake*, whose head was to represent those who have been initiated into the plans of the Jewish administration, and the body of the Snake to represent the Jewish people – the administration was always kept secret, EVEN FROM THE JEWISH NATION ITSELF. As this Snake penetrated into the hearts of the nations which it encountered it undermined and devoured all the non-Jewish power of these States. It is foretold that the Snake has still to finish its work, strictly adhering to the designed plan*, until the course which it has to run is closed by the return of its head to Zion and until, by this means, the Snake has completed its round of Europe and has encircled it – and until, by dint of enchaining Europe, it has encompassed the whole world. This it is to accomplish by using every endeavour to subdue the other countries by an ECONOMICAL CONQUEST. The return of the head of the Snake* to Zion can only be accomplished after the power of all the Sovereign of Europe has been laid low, that is to say, when by means of economic crises and wholesale destruction effected everywhere, there shall have been brought about a spiritual demoralisation and a moral corruption, chiefly with the assistance of Jewish women masquerading as French; Italians; etc.. These are the surest spreaders of licentiousness into the lives of the leading men at the heads of nations. A map of the course of the Symbolic Snake is shown as follows: – Its first stage in Europe was in 429 B.C. in Greece, where, about the time of Pericles, the Snake first started eating into the power of that country. The second stage was in Rome in the time of Augustus, about 69 B.C.. The third in Madrid in the time of Charles V, in A.D. 1552. The fourth in Paris about 1790, in the time of Louis XVI. The fifth in London from 1814 onwards (after the downfall of Napoleon). The sixth in Berlin in 1871 after the Franco-Prussian war. The seventh in St. Petersburg, over which is drawn the head of the Snake under the date of 1881. [This "Snake"* is now being drawn through the Americas and in the United States of America, it is been partially identified as the "Counsel on Foreign Relations" (C.F.R.) and the "Tri-Lateral Commission"]. All these States which the Snake traversed have had the foundations of their constitutions shaken, Germany, with its apparent power, forming no exception to the rule. In economic conditions, England and Germany are spared, but only till the conquest of Russia is accomplished by the Snake, on which at present [i.e., 1905] all its efforts are concentrated. The further course of the Snake is not shown on this map, but arrows indicate its next movement towards Moscow, Kiev and Odessa. It is now well known to us to what extent the latter cities form the centuries of the militant Jewish race. Constantinople is shown as the last stage of the Snake's course before it reaches Jerusalem. (This map was drawn years before the occurrence of the "Young Turk" – i.e., Jewish – Revolution in Turkey). * Genesis 3:14 And the "I AM" God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman**, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
** Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman (Israel) clothed with the "sun", and the "moon" under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars (the Crown of Israel - one star per tribe):
12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered (John 16:21).
12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
12:4 And his tale (of lies - John 8:35) drew the third part of the "Stars" (ch. 9:1) of heaven (into his army), and did (cause them to be) cast to the Earth (for their treason against God): and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born (Christ - second coming).
12:5 And she brought forth a Man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] His Throne.
12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore "days".
12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast onto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].
12:14 And to the woman (Israel) were given two wings of a great eagle (Ex. 19:4), that she might fly into the wilderness (Britain), into her place, where she is nourished for a Time, and Times (2), and half a Time (1260 "days") (Dan. 12:7), from the face of the serpent.
12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth "water" (ch.17:15) as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away (destroyed) by the flood.
12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which KEEP the Commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Christ Jesus (the Bible).
Bible references taken from "The King of kings' Bible".


III – The term goyim
The term "Goyim," meaning Gentile or non-Jews, is used throughout the Protocols and is retained by Mr. Marsden.



PROTOCOL 1
THE BASIC DOCTRINE
Right lies in Might – Politics versus Morals – The End justifies the Means – "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" – The New Aristocracy.
1. Putting aside fine phrases we shall speak of the significance of each thought: by comparisons and deductions we shall throw light upon surrounding facts.
2. What I am about to set forth, then, is our system from the two points of view, that of ourselves and that of the goyim [i.e., non- Jews].
3. It must be noted that men with bad instincts are more in number than the good, and therefore the best results in governing them are attained by violence and terrorisation, and not by academic discussions. Every man aims at power, everyone would like to become a dictator if only he could, and rare indeed are the men who would not be willing to sacrifice the welfare of all for the sake of securing their own welfare.
4. What has restrained the beasts of prey who are called men? What has served for their guidance hitherto?
5. In the beginnings of the structure of society, they were subjected to brutal and blind force; after words – to Law, which is the same force, only disguised. I draw the conclusion that by the law of nature right lies in force.
6. Political freedom is an idea but not a fact. This idea one must know how to apply whenever it appears necessary with this bait of an idea to attract the masses of the people to one's party for the purpose of crushing another who is in authority. This task is rendered easier if the opponent has himself been infected with the idea of freedom, so-called liberalism, and, for the sake of an idea, is willing to yield some of his power. It is precisely here that the triumph of our theory appears; the slackened reins of government are immediately, by the law of life, caught up and gathered together by a new hand, because the blind might of the nation cannot for one single day exist without guidance, and the new authority merely fits into the place of the old already weakened by liberalism.
7. In our day the power which has replaced that of the rulers who were liberal is the power of Gold. Time was when Faith ruled. The idea of freedom is impossible of realisation because no one knows how to use it with moderation. It is enough to hand over a people to self-government for a certain length of time for that people to be turned into a disorganised mob. From that moment on we get internecine strife which soon develops into battles between classes, in the midst of which States burn down and their importance is reduced to that of a heap of ashes.
8. Whether a State exhausts itself in its own convulsions, whether its internal discord brings it under the power of external foes – in any case it can be accounted irretrievably lost: it is in our power. The despotism of Capital, which is entirely in our hands, reaches out to it a straw that the State, willy-nilly, must take hold of: if not – it goes to the bottom.
9. Should anyone of a liberal mind say that such reflections as the above are immoral, I would put the following questions: If every State has two foes and if in regard to the external foe it is allowed and not considered immoral to use every manner and art of conflict, as for example to keep the enemy in ignorance of plans of attack and defence, to attack him by night or in superior numbers, then in what way can the same means in regard to a worse foe, the destroyer of the structure of society and the commonweal, be called immoral and not permissible?
10. Is it possible for any sound logical mind to hope with any success to guide crowds by the aid of reasonable counsels and arguments, when any objection or contradiction, senseless though it may be, can be made and when such objection may find more favour with the people, whose powers of reasoning are superficial? Men in masses and the men of the masses, being guided solely by petty passions, paltry beliefs, traditions and sentimental theorems, fall a prey to party dissension, which hinders any kind of agreement even on the basis of a perfectly reasonable argument. Every resolution of a crowd depends upon a chance or packed majority, which, in its ignorance of political secrets, puts forth some ridiculous resolution that lays in the administration a seed of anarchy.
11. The political has nothing in common with the moral. The ruler who is governed by the moral is not a skilled politician, and is therefore unstable on his throne. He who wishes to rule must have recourse both to cunning and to make-believe. Great national qualities, like frankness and honesty, are vices in politics, for they bring down rulers from their thrones more effectively and more certainly than the most powerful enemy. Such qualities must be the attributes of the kingdoms of the goyim, but we must in no wise be guided by them.
12. Our right lies in force. The word "right" is an abstract thought and proved by nothing. The word means no more than: Give me what I want in order that thereby I may have a proof that I am stronger than you.
13. Where does right begin? Where does it end?
14. In any State in which there is a bad organisation of authority, an impersonality of laws and of the rulers who have lost their personality amid the flood of rights ever multiplying out of liberalism, I find a new right – to attack by the right of the strong, and to scatter to the winds all existing forces of order and regulation, to reconstruct all institutions and to become the sovereign lord of those who have left to us the rights of their power by laying them down voluntarily in their liberalism.
15. Our power in the present tottering condition of all forms of power will be more invincible than any other, because it will remain invisible until the moment when it has gained such strength that no cunning can any longer undermine it.
16. Out of the temporary evil we are now compelled to commit will emerge the good of an unshakeable rule, which will restore the regular course of the machinery of the national life, brought to naught by liberalism. The result justifies the means. Let us, however, in our plans, direct our attention not so much to what is good and moral as to what is necessary and useful.
17. Before us is a plan in which is laid down strategically the line from which we cannot deviate without running the risk of seeing the labour of many centuries brought to naught.
18. In order to elaborate satisfactory forms of action it is necessary to have regard to the rascality, the slackness, the instability of the mob, its lack of capacity to understand and respect the conditions of its own life, or its own welfare. It must be understood that the might of a mob is blind, senseless and un-reasoning force ever at the mercy of a suggestion from any side. The blind cannot lead the blind without bringing them into the abyss; consequently, members of the mob, upstarts from the people even though they should be as a genius for wisdom, yet having no understanding of the political, cannot come forward as leaders of the mob without bringing the whole nation to ruin.
19. Only one trained from childhood for independent rule can have understanding of the words that can be made up of the political alphabet.
20. A people left to itself, i.e., to upstarts from its midst, brings itself to ruin by party dissensions excited by the pursuit of power and honours and the disorders arising therefrom. Is it possible for the masses of the people calmly and without petty jealousies to form judgement, to deal with the affairs of the country, which cannot be mixed up with personal interest? Can they defend themselves from an external foe? It is unthinkable; for a plan broken up into as many parts as there are heads in the mob, loses all homogeneity, and thereby becomes unintelligible and impossible of execution.
21. It is only with a despotic ruler that plans can be elaborated extensively and clearly in such a way as to distribute the whole properly among the several parts of the machinery of the State: from this the conclusion is inevitable that a satisfactory form of government for any country is one that concentrates in the hands of one responsible person. Without an absolute despotism there can be no existence for civilisation which is carried on not by the masses but by their guide, whosoever that person may be. The mob is savage, and displays its savagery at every opportunity. The moment the mob seizes freedom in its hands it quickly turns to anarchy, which in itself is the highest degree of savagery.
22. Behold the alcoholic animals, bemused with drink, the right to an immoderate use of which comes along with freedom. It is not for us and ours to walk that road. The peoples of the goyim are bemused with alcoholic liquors; their youth has grown stupid on classicism and from early immorality, into which it has been inducted by our special agents – by tutors, lackeys, governesses in the houses of the wealthy, by clerks and others, by our women in the places of dissipation frequented by the goyim. In the number of these last I count also the so-called "society ladies," voluntary followers of the others in corruption and luxury.
23. Our countersign is – Force and Make-believe. Only force conquers in political affairs, especially if it be concealed in the talents essential to statesmen. Violence must be the principle, and cunning and make-believe the rule for governments which do not want to lay down their crowns at the feet of agents of some new power. This evil is the one and only means to attain the end, the good. Therefore we must not stop at bribery, deceit and treachery when they should serve towards the attainment of our end. In politics one must know how to seize the property of others without hesitation if by it we secure submission and sovereignty.
24. Our State, marching along the path of peaceful conquest, has the right to replace the horrors of war by less noticeable and more satisfactory sentences of death, necessary to maintain the terror which tends to produce blind submission. Just but merciless severity is the greatest factor of strength in the State: not only for the sake of gain but also in the name of duty, for the sake of victory, we must keep to the programme of violence and make-believe. The doctrine of squaring accounts is precisely as strong as the means of which it makes use. Therefore it is not so much by the means themselves as by the doctrine of severity that we shall triumph and bring all governments into subjection to our super-government. It is enough for them to know that we are too merciless for all disobedience to cease.
25. Far back in ancient times we were the first to cry among the masses of the people the words "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity," words many times repeated since these days by stupid poll-parrots who, from all sides around, flew down upon these baits and with them carried away the well-being of the world, true freedom of the individual, formerly so well guarded against the pressure of the mob. The would-be wise men of the goyim, the intellectuals, could not make anything out of the uttered words in their abstractedness; did not see that in nature there is no equality, cannot be freedom: that Nature herself has established inequality of minds, of characters, and capacities, just as immutably as she has established subordination to her laws: never stopped to think that the mob is a blind thing, that upstarts elected from among it to bear rule are, in regard to the political, the same blind men as the mob itself, that the adept, though he be a fool, can yet rule, whereas the non-adept, even if he were a genius, understands nothing in the political – to all those things the goyim paid no regard; yet all the time it was based upon these things that dynastic rule rested: the father passed on to the son a knowledge of the course of political affairs in such wise that none should know it but members of the dynasty and none could betray it to the governed. As time went on, the meaning of the dynastic transference of the true position of affairs in the political was lost, and this aided the success of our cause.
26. In all corners of the earth the words "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity," brought to our ranks, thanks to our blind agents, whole legions who bore our banners with enthusiasm. And all the time these words were canker-worms at work boring into the well-being of the goyim, putting an end everywhere to peace, quiet, solidarity and destroying all the foundations of the goya States. As you will see later, this helped us to our triumph: it gave us the possibility, among other things, of getting into our hands the master card – the destruction of the privileges, or in other words of the very existence of the aristocracy of the goyim, that class which was the only defence peoples and countries had against us. On the ruins of the eternal and genealogical aristocracy of the goyim we have set up the aristocracy of our educated class headed by the aristocracy of money. The qualifications for this aristocracy we have established in wealth, which is dependent upon us, and in knowledge, for which our learned elders provide the motive force.
27. Our triumph has been rendered easier by the fact that in our relations with the men, whom we wanted, we have always worked upon the most sensitive chords of the human mind, upon the cash account, upon the cupidity, upon the insatiability for material needs of man; and each one of these human weaknesses, taken alone, is sufficient to paralyse initiative, for it hands over the will of men to the disposition of him who has bought their activities.
28. The abstraction of freedom has enabled us to persuade the mob in all countries that their government is nothing but the steward of the people who are the owners of the country, and that the steward may be replaced like a worn-out glove.
29. It is this possibility of replacing the representatives of the people which has placed at our disposal, and, as it were, given us the power of appointment.


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PROTOCOL 2
ECONOMIC WARS
Routine scientific government – Darwinism, Marxism, Nietzcheism – Press-inculcated mentality.
1. It is indispensable for our purpose that wars, so far as possible, should not result in territorial gains: war will thus be brought on to the economic ground, where the nations will not fail to perceive in the assistance we give the strength of our predominance, and this state of things will put both sides at the mercy of our international agentur; which possesses millions of eyes ever on the watch and unhampered by any limitations whatsoever. Our international rights will then wipe out national rights, in the proper sense of right, and will rule the nations precisely as the civil law of States rules the relations of their subjects among themselves.
2. The administrators, whom we shall choose from among the public, with strict regard to their capacities for servile obedience, will not be persons trained in the arts of government, and will therefore easily become pawns in our game in the hands of men of learning and genius who will be their advisers, specialists bred and reared from early childhood to rule the affairs of the whole world. As is well known to you, these specialists of ours have been drawing; to fit them for rule; the information they need; from our political plans; from the lessons of history; from observations made of the events of every moment as it passes. The goyim are not guided by practical use of unprejudiced historical observation, but by theoretical routine, without any critical regard for consequent results. We need not, therefore, take any account of them – let them amuse themselves until the hour strikes, or live on hopes of new forms of enterprising pastime, or on the memories of all they have enjoyed. For them let that play the principal part which we have persuaded them to accept as the dictates of science (theory). It is with this object in view that we are constantly, by means of our press, arousing a blind confidence in these theories. The intellectuals of the goyim will puff themselves up with their knowledge and; without any logical verification of them; will put into effect, all the information available from science, which our agentur specialists have cunningly pieced together, for the purpose of educating their minds in the direction we want.
3. Do not suppose for a moment that these statements are empty words: think carefully of the successes we arranged for Darwinism, Marxism, Nietzsche-ism. To us Jews, at any rate, it should be plain to see what a disintegrating importance these directives have had upon the minds of the goyim.
4. It is indispensable for us to take account of the thoughts; characters; tendencies of the nations, in order to avoid making slips in the political and in the direction of administrative affairs. The triumph of our system, of which the component parts of the machinery may be variously disposed, according to the temperament of the peoples met on our way, will fail of success if the practical application of it be not based upon a summing up of the lessons of the past in the light of the present.
5. In the hands of the States of to-day there is a great force that creates the movement of thought in the people, and that is the Press. The part played by the Press is to keep pointing out requirements supposed to be indispensable, to give voice to the complaints of the people, to express and to create discontent. It is in the Press that the triumph of freedom of speech finds its incarnation. But the goyim States have not known how to make use of this force; and it has fallen into our hands. Through the Press we have gained the power to influence, while remaining ourselves in the shade; thanks to the Press we have got the GOLD in our hands, notwithstanding that we have had to gather it out of the oceans of blood and tears. But it has paid us, though we have sacrificed many of our people. Each victim on our side is worth, in the sight of God, a thousand goyim.


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PROTOCOL 3
METHODS OF CONQUEST
The Symbolic Snake – "People's Rights" – Liquidation of the Goyim – "Sovereign Lord of the World" – Universal economic crisis – "Ours they will not touch…" – Secret masonic agents.
1. To-day I may tell you that our goal is now only a few steps off. There remains a small space to cross and the whole long path we have trodden is ready now to close its cycle of the Symbolic Snake, by which we symbolise our people. When this ring closes, all the States of Europe will be locked in its coil as in a powerful vice.
2. The constitution scales of these days will shortly break down, for we have established them with a certain lack of accurate balance in order that they may oscillate incessantly until they wear through the pivot on which they turn. The goyim are under the impression that they have welded them sufficiently strong and they have all along kept on expecting that the scales would come into equilibrium. But the pivots – the kings on their thrones – are hemmed in by their representatives, who play the fool, distraught with their own uncontrolled and irresponsible power. This power they owe to the terror which has been breathed into the palaces. As they have no means of getting at their people, into their very midst, the kings on their thrones are no longer able to come to terms with them and so strengthen themselves against seekers after power. We have made a gulf between the far-seeing Sovereign Power and the blind force of the people so that both have lost all meaning, for like the blind man and his stick, both are powerless apart.
3. In order to incite seekers after power to a misuse of power we have set all forces in opposition one to another, breaking up their liberal tendencies towards independence. To this end we have stirred up every form of enterprise, we have armed all parties, we have set up authority as a target for every ambition. Of States we have made gladiatorial arenas where a lot of confused issues contend....A little more, and disorders and bankruptcy will be universal....
4. Babblers, inexhaustible, have turned into oratorical contests the sittings of Parliament and Administrative Boards. Bold journalists and unscrupulous pamphleteers daily fall upon executive officials. Abuses of power will put the final touch in preparing all institutions for their overthrow and everything will fly skyward under the blows of the maddened mob.
5. All people are chained down to heavy toil by poverty more firmly than ever. They were chained by slavery and serfdom; from these, one way and another, they might free themselves. These could be settled with, but from want they will never get away. We have included in the constitution such rights as to the masses appear fictitious and not actual rights. All these so-called "Peoples Rights" can exist only in idea, an idea which can never be realised in practical life. What is it to the proletariat labourer, bowed double over his heavy toil, crushed by his lot in life, if talkers get the right to babble, if journalists get the right to scribble any nonsense side by side with good stuff, once the proletariat has no other profit out of the constitution save only those pitiful crumbs which we fling them from our table in return for their voting in favour of what we dictate, in favour of the men we place in power, the servants of our agentur ... Republican rights for a poor man are no more than a bitter piece of irony, for the necessity he is under of toiling almost all day gives him no present use of them, but the other hand robs him of all guarantee of regular and certain earnings by making him dependent on strikes by his comrades or lockouts by his masters.
6. The people, under our guidance, have annihilated the aristocracy, who were their one and only defence* and foster-mother for the sake of their own advantage which is inseparably bound up with the well-being of the people. Nowadays, with the destruction of the aristocracy, the people have fallen into the grips of merciless money-grinding scoundrels who have laid a pitiless and cruel yoke upon the necks of the workers.
* Not true. The Covenant and God's Laws and Economic Policy in The Torah are the ONLY defence against all abuse and oppression.
7. We appear on the scene as alleged saviours of the worker from this oppression when we propose to him to enter the ranks of our fighting forces – Socialists, Anarchists, Communists – to whom we always give support in accordance with an alleged brotherly rule (of the solidarity of all humanity) of our social masonry (Ezekiel 13:10-16; Matthew 7:23-27). The aristocracy, which enjoyed by law the labour of the workers, was interested in seeing that the workers (employees/slaves) were well fed, healthy, and strong. We are interested in just the opposite – in the diminution, the killing out of the goyim. Our power is in the chronic shortness of food and physical weakness of the worker because by all that this implies he is made the slave of our will, and he will not find in his own authorities either strength or energy to set against our will. Hunger creates the right of capital to rule the worker more surely than it was given to the aristocracy by the (* ill-) legal authority of kings (* Deuteronomy 17:14-20).
8. By want and the envy and hatred which it engenders we shall move the mobs and with their hands we shall wipe out all those who hinder us on our way.
9. When the hour strikes for our sovereign lord of all the world to be crowned it is these same hands which will sweep away everything that might be a hindrance thereto.
10. The goyim have lost the habit of thinking, unless prompted by the suggestions of our specialists. Therefore they do not see the urgent necessity of what we, when our kingdom comes, shall adopt at once, namely this, that it is essential to teach in national schools one simple, true piece of knowledge, the basis of all knowledge – the knowledge of the structure of human life, of social existence, which requires division of labour, and, consequently, the division of men into classes and conditions. It is essential for all to know that owing to difference in the objects of human activity there cannot be any equality, that he, who by any act of his compromises a whole class, cannot be equally responsible before the law with him who affects no one but only his own honour. The true knowledge of the structure of society, into the secrets of which we do not admit the goyim, would demonstrate to all men that the positions and work must be kept within a certain circle, that they may not become a source of human suffering, arising from an education which does not correspond with the work which individuals are called upon to do. After a thorough study of this knowledge, the peoples will voluntarily submit to authority and accept such position as is appointed them in the State. In the present state of knowledge and the direction we have given to its development of the people, blindly believing things in print – cherishes – thanks to promptings intended to mislead and to its own ignorance – a blind hatred towards all conditions which it considers above itself, for it has no understanding of the meaning of class and condition.
11. This hatred will be still further magnified by the effects of an economic crisis, which will stop dealing on the exchanges and bring industry to a standstill. We shall create by all the secret subterranean methods open to us and with the aid of gold, which is all in our hands, a universal economic crisis whereby we shall throw upon the streets whole mobs of workers simultaneously in all the countries of Europe. These mobs will rush delightedly to shed the blood of those whom, in the simplicity of their ignorance, they have envied from their cradles, and whose property they will then be able to loot.
12 "Ours" they will not touch, because the moment of attack will be known to us and we shall take measures to protect our own.
13. We have demonstrated that progress will bring all the goyim to the sovereignty of reason. Our despotism will be precisely that; for it will know how, by wise severities, to pacify all unrest, to cauterise liberalism out of all institutions.
14. When the populace has seen that all sorts of concessions and indulgences are yielded it, in the same name of freedom it has imagined itself to be sovereign lord and has stormed its way to power, but, naturally like every other blind man, it has come upon a host of stumbling blocks. It has rushed to find a guide (Matthew 15:12-14; 23:23-39), it has never had the sense to return to the former state (of keeping The Covenant) and it has laid down its plenipotentiary powers at OUR feet. Remember the French Revolution, to which it was we who gave the name of "Great": the secrets of its preparations are well known to us, for it was wholly the work of our hands.
15 Ever since that time we have been leading the peoples from one disenchantment to another, so that in the end they should turn also from us in favour of that king-despot of the blood of Zion, whom we are preparing for the world.
16. At the present day we are, as an international force, invincible, because if attacked by some we are supported by other States. It is the bottomless rascality of the goyim peoples, who crawl on their bellies to force, but are merciless towards weakness, unsparing to faults and indulgent to crimes, unwilling to bear the contradictions of a free social system but patient unto martyrdom under the violence of a bold despotism – it is those qualities which are aiding us to independence. From the premier-dictators of the present day, the goyim peoples suffer patiently and bear such abuses as for the least of them they would have beheaded twenty kings.
17. What is the explanation of this phenomenon, this curious inconsequence of the masses of the peoples in their attitude towards what would appear to be events of the same order?
18. It is explained by the fact that these dictators whisper to the peoples through their agents that through these abuses they are inflicting injury on the States with the highest purpose – to secure the welfare of the peoples, the international brotherhood of them all, their solidarity and equality of rights. Naturally they do not tell the peoples that this unification must be accomplished only under our sovereign rule.
19. And thus the people condemn the upright and acquit the guilty, persuaded ever more and more that it can do whatsoever it wishes. Thanks to this state of things, the people are destroying every kind of stability and creating disorders at every step.
20. The word "freedom" brings out the communities of men to fight against every kind of force, against every kind of authority even against God and the laws of nature. For this reason we, when we come into our kingdom, shall have to erase this word from the lexicon of life as implying a principle of brute force, which turns mobs into bloodthirsty beasts.
21. These beasts, it is true, fall asleep again every time when they have drunk their fill of blood, and at such time can easily be riveted into their chains. But if they be not given blood they will not sleep and will continue to struggle.


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PROTOCOL 4
MATERIALISM REPLACES RELIGION
Stages of a Republic – Gentile masonry a screen – International speculation of industry – Cult of Gold
1. Every republic passes through several stages. The first of these is comprised in the early days of mad raging by the blind mob, tossed hither and thither, right and left (Deuteronomy 5:32): the second is demagogy from which is born anarchy, and that leads inevitably to despotism – not any longer legal and overt, and therefore responsible despotism, but to unseen and secretly hidden, yet nevertheless sensibly felt despotism in the hands of some secret organisation or other, whose acts are the more unscrupulous inasmuch as it works behind a screen, behind the backs of all sorts of agents, the changing of whom not only does not injuriously affect, but actually aids the secret force by saving it, thanks to continual changes, from the necessity of expanding its resources on the rewarding of long services.
2. Who and what is in a position to overthrow an invisible force? And this is precisely what our force is. Gentile masonry blindly serves as a screen for us and our objects, but the plan of action of our force, even its very abiding-place, remains for the whole people an unknown mystery.
3. But even freedom might be harmless and have its place in the State economy; without injury to the well-being of the peoples; if it rested upon the foundation of faith in God, upon the brotherhood of humanity, unconnected with the conception of equality, which is negatived by the very laws of creation, for they have established subordination. With such a faith as this a people might be governed by a wardship of parishes, and would walk contentedly and humbly under the guiding hand of its spiritual pastor, submitting to the dispositions of God upon Earth. This is the reason why it is indispensable for us to undermine all faith, to tear out of the mind of the goyim the very principle of Godhead and the spirit (John 3:1-12*), and to put in its place arithmetical calculations and material needs.
* 3:1 There was a man of the politicians, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born from above, he cannot SEE the Kingdom of God.
3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (human) and then is born (later) from above as his spirit-"Being" (his REAL self which is NOT human), he can NOT enter into the Kingdom of God (Who is a Spirit-"Being").
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is human; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit (a spirit-"Being") - (a human+Being).
3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and where it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? (How can I not be human?)
3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a teacher of Israel, and knowest not these things?
3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you [of] heavenly (spirit) things?
4. In order to give the goyim no time to think and take note, their minds must be diverted towards industry and trade. Thus, all the nations will be swallowed up in the pursuit of gain and, in the race for it, will not take note of their common foe. But again, in order that freedom may once for all disintegrate and ruin the communities of the goyim, we must put industry on a speculative basis: the result of this will be that what is withdrawn from the land by industry will slip through the hands and pass into speculation, that is, to our classes.
5. The intensified struggle for superiority and shocks delivered to economic life will create, nay, have already created, disenchanted, cold and heartless communities (Matthew 24:12). Such communities will foster a strong aversion towards the higher political and towards religion. Their only guide is gain, that is Gold, which they will erect into a veritable cult, for the sake of those material delights which it can give. Then will the hour strike when, not for the sake of attaining the good, not even to win wealth, but solely out of hatred towards the privileged, the lower classes of the goyim will follow our lead against our rivals for power, the intellectuals of the goyim.


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PROTOCOL 5
DESPOTISM & MODERN PROGRESS
Centralised Government – Gulfs separating States – Sham eloquence to overcome public opinion – Super-Government Administration
1. What form of administrative rule can be given to communities in which corruption has penetrated everywhere, communities where riches are attained only by the clever surprise tactics of semi-swindling tricks; where looseness reigns: where morality is maintained by penal measures and harsh laws but not by voluntarily accepted principles (The Commandments): where the feelings towards faith and country are obligated by cosmopolitan convictions? What form of rule is to be given to these communities, if not that despotism which I shall describe to you later? We shall create an intensified centralisation of government in order to grip in our hands all the forces of the community. We shall regulate mechanically all the actions of the political life of our subjects by new laws. These laws will withdraw one by one all the indulgences and liberties which have been permitted by the goyim, and our kingdom will be distinguished by a despotism of such magnificent proportions as to be at any moment and in every place in a position to wipe out any goyim who oppose us by deed or word.
2. We shall be told that such a despotism as I speak of is not consistent with the progress of these days, but I will prove to you that it is.
3. In the times when the peoples looked upon kings on their thrones as on a pure manifestation of the will of God, they submitted without a murmur to the despotic power of kings: but from the day when we insinuated into their minds the conception of their own rights, they began to regard the occupants of thrones as mere ordinary mortals. The holy unction of the Lord's Anointed has fallen from the heads of kings, in the eyes of the people, and when we also robbed them of their faith in God, the might of power was flung upon the streets, into the place of public proprietorship and was seized by us.
4. Moreover, the art of directing masses and individuals by means of cleverly manipulated theory and verbiage, by regulations of life in common and all sorts of other quirks, in all which the goyim understand nothing, belongs likewise to the specialists of our administrative brain. Reared on analysis, observation, on delicacies of fine calculation, in this species of skill we have no rivals, any more than we have either in the drawing up of plans of political actions and solidarity. In this respect the Jesuits alone might have compared with us, but we have contrived to discredit them in the eyes of the unthinking mob, as an overt organisation, while we ourselves all the while have kept our secret organisation in the shade. However, it is probably all the same to the world who is its sovereign lord, whether the head of Catholicism or our despot of the blood of Zion! But to us, the Chosen People*, it is very far from being a matter of indifference.
* Which they are not:- Revelation 2:9 I (Christ) know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and [I know] the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are NOT, but [are] (Idumeans) the Synagogue of Satan.
Malachi 1:2 I have loved you, saith the "I AM". Yet ye say, Wherein hast Thou loved us? [Was] not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the "I AM": yet I loved Jacob,
1:3 And I hated Esau (Edom) , and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
1:4 Whereas Edom (Idumeans) saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the "I AM" Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the "I AM" hath indignation for ever.
5. For a time perhaps we may be successfully dealt with by a coalition of the goyim of all the world: but from this danger we are secured by the discord existing among them whose roots are so deeply seated that they can never now be plucked up (Matthew 13:24-3, 36-43). We have set one against another the personal and national reckonings of the goyim, religious and race hatreds, which we have fostered into a huge growth in the course of the past twenty centuries. This is the reason why there is not one State which would anywhere receive support, if it were to raise its arm, for every one of them must bear in mind that any agreement against us would be unprofitable to itself. We are too strong – there is no evading our power. The nations cannot come to even an inconsiderable private agreement without our secretly having a hand in it.
6. Per me reges regnant. "It is through me that kings reign." And it was said by the prophets that we were chosen by God Himself to rule over the whole earth. God has endowed us with genius that we may be equal to our task. Were genius in the opposite camp it would still struggle against us, but even so, a newcomer is no match for the old-established settler: the struggle would be merciless between us, such a fight as the world has never seen (Daniel 12:1-3; Matthew 24:21-27). Aye, and the genius on their side would have arrived too late. All the wheels of the machinery of all States go by the force of the engine, which is in our hands, and that engine of the machinery of States is – Gold. The science of political economy invented by our learned elders has for long past been giving royal prestige to capital.
7. Capital, if it is to co-operate untrammelled, must be free to establish a monopoly of industry and trade: this is already being put in execution by an unseen hand in all quarters of the world. This freedom will give political force to those engaged in industry, and that will help to oppress the people. Nowadays it is more important to disarm* the peoples than to lead them into war: more important to use for our advantage the passions which have burst into flames than to quench their fire: more important to eradicate them. The principle object of our directorate consists in this: to debilitate the public mind by criticism; to lead it away from serious reflections calculated to arouse resistance; to distract the forces of the mind towards a sham fight of empty eloquence.
* Luke 11:21 When a strong man ARMED keepeth his castle, his goods are in peace:
11:22 But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his weapons wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
11:23 He that is not WITH me is AGAINST me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
8. In all ages the people of the world, equally with individuals, have accepted words for deeds, for they are content with a show and rarely pause to note, in the public arena, whether promises are followed by performance. Therefore we shall establish show institutions which will give eloquent proof of their benefit to progress.
9. We shall assume to ourselves the liberal physiognomy of all parties, of all directions, and we shall give that physiognomy a voice in orators who will speak so much that they will exhaust the patience of their hearers and produce an abhorrence of oratory.
10. In order to put public opinion into our hands we must bring it into a state of bewilderment, by giving expression, from all sides, to so many contradictory opinions and for such a length of time as will suffice to make the goyim lose their heads in the labyrinth and come to see that the best thing is to have no opinion of any kind in matters political, which it is not given to the public to understand, because they are understood only by him who guides the public. This is the first secret.
11. The second secret requisite for the success of our government is comprised in the following: To multiply to such an extent; national failings; habits; passions; conditions of civil life; that it will be impossible for anyone to know where he is in the resulting chaos, so that the people in consequence will fail to understand one another. This measure will also serve us in another way, namely, to sow discord in all parties, to dislocate all collective forces which are still unwilling to submit to us, and to discourage any kind of personal initiative which might in any degree hinder our affair. There is nothing more dangerous than personal initiative: if it has genius behind it, such initiative can do more than can be done by millions of people among whom we have sown discord (Matthew 21:21). We must so direct the education of the goyim communities that, whenever they come upon a matter requiring initiative, they may drop their hands in despairing impotence. The strain, which results from freedom of actions, saps the forces, when it meets with the freedom of another. From this collision arise grave moral shocks, disenchantments, failures. By all these means we shall so wear down the goyim, that they will be compelled to offer us international power, of a nature that, by its position, will enable us, without any violence, gradually to absorb all the state forces of the world and to form a Super-Government. In place of the rulers of to-day we shall set up a bogey which will be called the Super-Government Administration. Its hands will reach out in all directions like nippers and its organisation will be of such colossal dimensions that it cannot fail to subdue all the nations of the world.


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PROTOCOL 6
TAKE-OVER TECHNIQUE
Reservoirs of riches – Destruction of goy aristocracy – Vicious circle of rising prices
1. We shall soon begin to establish huge monopolies, reservoirs of colossal riches, upon which, even large fortunes of the goyim will depend to such an extent that they will go to the bottom, together with the credit of the States, on the day after the political smash....



AND THE PROTOCOLS GO ON AND ON. SO, WITH THESE PROTOCOLS, DO WE STILL WANT TO RECOGNIZE THEM ?

[ArmyHobbyist]

Naturally, i am in favor of Pakistan recognizing Israel, and i will ofcourse elaborate:

from the moral standpoint:

First of all, true mediation with intents of peaceful resolution of the conflict is much desired by both Israelis and Palestinians. this would win the eternal gratefulness of both people and is a right thing to do.

I think cooperation should begin on Islamic issues. Israel, as a country that holds a significant amount of muslim heritage and holy sites, should answer to the concerns of muslims around the world in a form of open dialog, with no preconditions involved. It is our duty to safeguard Islamic heritage and open it to the muslim world.

This will also strengthen the Saudi peace plan, which is an important step towards a solution to the conflict.

It will serve as a counter-weight to the disasterous plans Iran is having for the middle east.

It will also defuze any tensions that may exist regarding nuclear capability (although both countries have played it very safe so far and i suspect some understanding has already been pre-mediated).

from practical standpoints:

Most importantly - a just solution to the palestinian problem would divert much due attention to the many other conflicts in the muslim world, Kashmir probably first place but other important ones too like the rights of turkish cypriots, nagorno-karbach, russian oppression of north caucasus countries that didn't make it to independence after the collapse of USSR and others. this is both moral and practical.

It will Solidify other regional alliances of Pakistan, in particular important ones like Turkey and Saudi Arabia.

It will dramatically increase the favorable view of Pakistan in western eyes.

Not to mention ofcourse the economic benefits of trade and technology transfer. Israel has extremely well developed biotechnological industries, agricultural industries, arms industury and high-tech companies. Pakistan could do very well with these resources.

I would also like to respond to several of the objections:

It has been said that Iran would not react favorably on this. who are they to ask? their policy already draws instability to baluchistan and they already support indian claims to Kashmir. they also want to claim a leadership position in the muslim world, but unlike Pakistan they don't have the merit and the power to back their claims. a more likely outcome would be Iran cooling down a bit, something good for all parties involved.

it has also been claimed that it would make Pakistan lose its soul. truth can't be more different - most palestinians and most israelis do want peace. the lives already lost cannot be brought back - the deaths of more lives can and should be prevented. anyone who can bring this bloody conflict to a true end should be considered a saint. it would also correct an undue rift between Judaism and Islam, as islam always harbored a special status and preference to jews, as people of the book.

also, regarding the protocols of the elders of zion, it is a doctored document designed to demonize us. none of it is true, as simple as that. which do you prefer, the qur'an (as "people of the book") or the protocols (as scheming devils trying to undermine everyone)?

[faizan khaliq]

I have cirtain questions from all
1.If palistine and Israel together what would be demographic ratio of Muslims and jews and christians
2.The present Aqsa mosque when it was made and officialy designated as aqsa mosque?
3.Where is Masjid-i-ummar in jeroselum?

[ArmyHobbyist]

I have cirtain questions from all
1.If palistine and Israel together what would be demographic ratio of Muslims and jews and christians
2.The present Aqsa mosque when it was made and officialy designated as aqsa mosque?
3.Where is Masjid-i-ummar in jeroselum?

1. according to wikipedia, summing from the two articles, it will be about 63%/37% for the jews. i'm pretty sure that's a bit biased, but not by much. i'd say 57/43 is a much better estimate.
2. about 700 AD according to wikipedia.
3. also on the temple mount, very close to each other.

btw, both are under control of muslim waqf and jews are barred from entering the place.

[faizan khaliq]

1. according to wikipedia, summing from the two articles, it will be about 63%/37% for the jews. i'm pretty sure that's a bit biased, but not by much. i'd say 57/43 is a much better estimate.
2. about 700 AD according to wikipedia.
3. also on the temple mount, very close to each other.

btw, both are under control of muslim waqf and jews are barred from entering the place.

let us say Israel accepts all the palistinian refugees from 1948 and no further immigration possible
would any powersharing formula between palistinians and jews workable in a true democratic secular republic of palistine/Israel.This can end jewish occupation but it would be settlement to place of liking instead of having two states fighting every time,, just a thought guys don,t put me on cross
I think on the night of mierage sharif Rasoolallah salallah hu alaihi waslam was taken to the Dome of rock or haikal-i-sulaimani as mosque of Aqsa was not their and same haikal/dom was qibla-i-awal a common thing between jews and muslims

[MirBadshah]

Faizan, I dont know how he managed to get in to Think Tank, may be a miricle of Israel's technology as MODS never allowed him here, I am going to open a new thread about Israel in general discussion thread, let us listen to views of our friend there, there is lot of stuff to discuss and to know his views.

[Dizasta]

Well i think only musharaf regime can recognize Israel nothing else..else gahails are those who love to use black sun glass at night like gahail chodriesss they even dont know that sun glass is for a day time So about ur question well i think we can utilize it if we want to but what musharaf said we will think about the recognition of Israel after the resolution of Palestinian dispute.. SO suppose Palestinian dispute resolved and we recognize israel..what i think we can got good position much better then turkey... our economy should rise....and we can gain more sympathies of US which is relay vital for us but the question is the recognition of Israel will disturb the Islamic culture in Pakistan?? and what about the reaction of some Pakistani gahali peoples???? and what about the internal situation?? the recognition of Israel by Pakistan is the solution of all the problems what i think..

Yes indeed, the internal situation has deteriorated considerably. Assassination of politician Benazir Bhutto, return of Nawaz Shareef, PML(Q) losing the election. There is also the disintegration of society and its unity. The need for securing our national boundries, airspace and coastline. The need for an integrated database system, proper trained staff which is put in charge of this national database which would help the law enforcement agencies, rangers, coast guards & immigration agencies.

I'd have to say, the recognition of Israel can well be put on the back burner now. If anything else, Israel is actively cooperating with india and is improving india's arsenal on all important fronts. For which reason, I would say that recognizing the Israelis, particularly when they're carrying out attacks against the Palestinian people, clamping down on Gaza, making life unbareble for the people of Gaza and also aiding and abetting our primary enemy. Its not worth it and is counter productive.

[Felicius]

I'd have to say, the recognition of Israel can well be put on the back burner now. If anything else, Israel is actively cooperating with india and is improving india's arsenal on all important fronts. For which reason, I would say that recognizing the Israelis, particularly when they're carrying out attacks against the Palestinian people, clamping down on Gaza, making life unbareble for the people of Gaza and also aiding and abetting our primary enemy. Its not worth it and is counter productive.

This is when exactly we should approach Israel, i.e., when they are misbehaving the most.
By us, or any other country boycotting them, it doesn't affect their prosperity, only diminishes ours.

By becoming allies, we can sit and talk to them on the same level, and try and reason with them.
If we try and reason with them as enemies, our points will never be accepted or even get across.

Also, if we want them to slow down their cooperation with India, even abandoning India, this is the prime time to play dirty politics, and extend our hand towards them.
If we want them to progress along with India, then we should just stay put and not do anything, for we've been doing that since the last 60 years anyways.

[asamih]

lolz at the person who put in quotes from the "learnt elders of zion", what a bunch of lies.

[cheif No 1]

Isn'nt it too late for this question. Isreal is in its last decades of exsistance. Even american think tanks have serious doubts over Isreali security & exsistance. These thought got even more stronger after short wars with Hizb & Hamas. Ex PM Ehud Barak says we are walking on rope & rope is getting thinner & thinner every day. Being among leaders in Islamic world we should think positive & must take initiative to librate Bait-ul-Muqadas.

[_killuminati_]

This is when exactly we should approach Israel, i.e., when they are misbehaving the most.
By us, or any other country boycotting them, it doesn't affect their prosperity, only diminishes ours.

By becoming allies, we can sit and talk to them on the same level, and try and reason with them.
If we try and reason with them as enemies, our points will never be accepted or even get across.

Israel has plenty of Muslim allies, and speaking on even grounds has not changed their stance at all.

Allah (swt) orders Muslims to help the oppressed. Diplomatic recognition of Israel (including its continuously changing borders) is an automatic surrender to Israeli oppression of innocents (which includes forceful land-grabs, i.e. WB & Gaza settlements).

[cheif No 1]

i just read this...i think slowly other people in Pakistan are also opening up to the idea

Webby please keep these Qadris seperate . Once Tahir Qadri gave fatwa that Muslims in west can get their house on mortgage and the financing for them is Halah.

[Aliph Ahmed]

I fully support the diplomatic recognition by Pakistan of the Jewish state of Israel.

If Turkey can do it then so can we ! We have no issues with Israel.

It is about time, we start taking relationship with the Arab countries and the sole Jewish country based on our national interests.

Israeli palestinian fight is not ours. We can support the palestinians morally as muslims but that is about it.

If the Palestinians dont recognize Kashmir as part of Pakistan then we also should not recognize East Jerusalem as part of Palestine.

[Jahan]

I fully support the diplomatic recognition by Pakistan of the Jewish state of Israel.

If Turkey can do it then so can we ! We have no issues with Israel.

It is about time, we start taking relationship with the Arab countries and the sole Jewish country based on our national interests.

Israeli palestinian fight is not ours. We can support the palestinians morally as muslims but that is about it.

If the Palestinians dont recognize Kashmir as part of Pakistan then we also should not recognize East Jerusalem as part of Palestine.

Perhaps use the threat of recognition as a bargaining chip with the Arab states: start pressuring India to solve the Kashmir issue?

The way I see it, diplmoatic regonition of Israel by Pakistan would be a huge, huge thing...

All the Arabs would have to do would be to start back-door negotiations with Bharat... I'm sure the ball would start rolling.

[1Pakistani]

I fully support the diplomatic recognition by Pakistan of the Jewish state of Israel.

If Turkey can do it then so can we ! We have no issues with Israel.

It is about time, we start taking relationship with the Arab countries and the sole Jewish country based on our national interests.

Israeli palestinian fight is not ours. We can support the palestinians morally as muslims but that is about it.

If the Palestinians dont recognize Kashmir as part of Pakistan then we also should not recognize East Jerusalem as part of Palestine.

You are thinking this as if Israel is has very good intentions for us. Despite us not recognising Israel we never posed(threatend them) military danger to them. However, they have been hell bent to destroy us internally. Than how can we accept Israel to be good toward us. Its very nation that has killed men of its best friend and it is a nation that HAS been spying on its best friend.

I dont accept much in return from Israel.

Other thing, less leave aside the arabs, but speaking as a Muslims how can we be friend with Oppressor. Islam is against oppression and very last sermon of Prophet Mohammad we were told not to oppress or be oppressed. Thus how can we recognise Israel when indirectly we will be recognising their killing of Palestinian people.

[Felicius]

Do whatever it takes, to change their ways.
If recognition is a way, they give it a try.

By not recognizing them, doesn't change their stance, hence the method is a failure, a proven failure since the last 40 odd years.

[1Pakistani]

Do whatever it takes, to change their ways.
If recognition is a way, they give it a try.

By not recognizing them, doesn't change their stance, hence the method is a failure, a proven failure since the last 40 odd years.

Why are we concerned about them?

What benifit will we gain? what great benifit has Egypt or other countries has gained by recognising Israel.

Turkey has been willing to strip it self naked to be recognised by EU but the same old story, its a nation full of Muslims.

Unless clearly defined benifit can be gained i dont see a point in recognising Israel. If than so we need to put it in prospective, after all if we recognise Israel today we will be saying he we support your killing of Palestinian people and taking of their land.

I dont like such Idea and I think Pakistan as whole wont either.

[Felicius]

ISI will slip in as businessmen.

[1Pakistani]

ISI will slip in as businessmen.

Considering the make of Israel and racist attitude of jews, it will be difficult for ISI to operate. Not saying its not possible, but rather difficult and it could only be useful if we are gonna go to war with Israel and than know them from inside and blow them to bits.

But the racial make of Israel makes it harder to acheive any kind of internal conflict which could effect Israel.

Prehaps getting into Pal areas and using them would be better plan.

But as I said we never had ill intentions against Israel as long as they leave us alone.

Its going be a task of balancing everything.

[Felicius]

It's difficult now.
If there is regular trade, and regularly Pakistani businessmen were flying in and out, it's relatively easier to slip in then.

[Hawk_Eye]

A big No... I would urge people to watch a documentary called "the land speaks Arabic" before even contemplating a friendship with Isreal.

Link to youtube:

What they did back then, and what they are doing now is no better then what the Germans did in WWII... For shame... Shame on the Israeli Government and it's policies of ethnic cleansing and human right's violation of indigenous people. The day Pakistan recognises Israel should be when Israel recognises the right for a Palestinian state including the West Bank.

[aziqbal]

Its a strange one

when Fatah and Hamas arent fighting Israel they are fighting each other

how many Arab-Israelis serve in the IDF, youd be suprised, alot of arab countrys not only recognise israel but have full trade ties and even military ties for example Jordan

whats in it for Pakistan, can we stop the sale of the advannced weapons to India? i doubt it, anyone who has $$$ israel will sell, israelis will even sell thier mothers for $$$, look at Lavi project for example

I dont think we will get much out of it

[Felicius]

A big No... I would urge people to watch a documentary called "the land speaks Arabic" before even contemplating a friendship with Isreal.

Diplomatic Recognition, we don't have to be friends.
We recognize and trade with India, Congo, and Ethiopia as well, we aren't friends with them.

[Pak-Eye]

Diplomatic Recognition, we don't have to be friends.We recognize and trade with India, Congo, and Ethiopia as well, we aren't friends with them.

Diplomatic recognition ... its like I won't attack you; you won't attack me ... you may attack other Muslim states for all I care ...

If we are on loosing side, it doesn't mean we switch the sides; there is something known as honor and dignity as well

Zionists planned the course of world events 150 years ago; what makes someone so confident that they can dodge Israel?

As per Islamic prophecies and historical facts, apparently most of the Muslims states will accept ... sorry, will 'diplomatically recognize' the state of Israel paving the way for their King to finally appear and claim the throne.

It indeed won't be easy for Muslims to ge taway with the fitna of great zionist king

[Felicius]

Diplomatic recognition ... its like I won't attack you; you won't attack me ... you may attack other Muslim states for all I care ...

Not at all, we recognize India, trade with them, we aren't friends by a long shot, they do threaten us from time to time, and we do care if they commit attrocities in Kashmir.
We do the same with UK and US.

Israel won't be any different at all.