234 replies to this topic

[Aliph Ahmed]

Pirate is again here to spoil the thread.
We are here not to discuss genetics by the way Mr. Pirate.

Pirateofthecaribbean = Mixed breed = Half Mongoloid and half Negroid.

[AWA]

lets back to the topic.
its such a good news for PAF. I am looking for more input from members specially the Mark, Dizasta and Munir.

[Felicius]

Pirate is back here to spoil the discussion.

He suffers from ADD.

[pirateofthecarribean]

Pirateofthecaribbean = Mixed breed = Half Mongoloid and half Negroid.

Aren't you Muslims and Christians supposed to believe in the unity of a single race, the human race? Guess you Muslims and Christians need to work on your beliefs. I'm atheist and I dare say I am more humane than most Christians and Muslims.

[lein303]

Aren't you Muslims and Christians supposed to believe in the unity of a single race, the human race? Guess you Muslims and Christians need to work on your beliefs. I'm atheist and I dare say I am more humane than most Christians and Muslims.

Your more annoying than most christians and muslims as well

[pirateofthecarribean]

Your more annoying than most christians and muslims as well

LOL, I was joking to test your responses.

[Caesar]

LOL, I was joking to test your responses.

Mr Pirate, you are upto your old tricks again. Remember you were banned once and only restored when some members requested the Mods. There are no second chances--so please cut out your immaturity and lets discuss this nicely shall we.

[hifi]

Wrong. Indians and Russian are relatively fairly close. They are both R1a and speak Indo-European and are both Caucasian.

http://en.wikipedia...._DNA_haplogroup

http://www.merriam-w...onary/Caucasian

the same halogroup would be refering to the aryans or the "white indians" of india. What about the dark people ?

[usmanakram]

Allah HU AKHBAR!

may Allah Bless Pakistan Army

How I wish Kayani would take over the country, I am SICK of democracy screwing up Pakistan!

[longlake]

Wrong. Indians and Russian are relatively fairly close. They are both R1a and speak Indo-European and are both Caucasian.

http://en.wikipedia...._DNA_haplogroup

http://www.merriam-w...onary/Caucasian

Where on earth you get this from, I am pretty sure your are one of the Indians which call themselves "whites" but actually donkeys, you might not donkey, however monkey for sure.
You better behave here, this is my friends' yard, not indian toilet.

[bling-bling]

I still do not understand, why we try to post old news over and over ... as if it is new.

http://forum.pakista...showtopic=85757

My bad, should have checked the forum before posting the FT link

[lein303]

Where on earth you get this from, I am pretty sure your are one of the Indians which call themselves "whites" but actually donkeys, you might not donkey, however monkey for sure.
You better behave here, this is my friends' yard, not indian toilet.

Indians are geneticly closer to rats or monkeys than they are to russians lol

This shall prove my point

[Euro18]

Usman Shabbir on PakDef confirmed that PAF will be getting J-10B. Heck, even Chinese sources such as tphuang say it's a good possibility.

If deliver time is after 2013, the it should be J-10B. It is impossible for China to refurbish current J-10A with Russian engine to Pakistan.

[Londo Molari]

So far all the news links i have seen are Indian news sites

[atoom]

So far all the news links i have seen are Indian news sites

that's what they are concerned about the most?

[hala]

it will be a j-10b as china needs to come in to export market with something good as they need to have a good reputation of their fighters and for that reason they will finance Pakistan too.

and as one western analyst says yesterday that paf will become test lab for chinese fighters and airforces from other countries will look at the number of operational fighters in world airforces when the buy a new weapon system.

as you can understand y "french rafael" is not attracting buyers as no one uses this plane other than french. and french are pushing hard to get some buyer to break the jinx.

so is the case with j-10

china will get its first buyer and user in form of Pakistan and paf will show the world that a good and reputable air force is using our weapon system and is satisfied with it.

so there is no chance paf will buy a downgrade weapon system and waste money and oppertunity.

thats the reason paf has already ordered 42 jf-17 (already having 8 jf-17 in use, totalling 50 planes).

to show the world that its a sucessful fighter.

[hawkeye-01]

waiting for further information

[aziqbal]

Aren't you Muslims and Christians supposed to believe in the unity of a single race, the human race? Guess you Muslims and Christians need to work on your beliefs. I'm atheist and I dare say I am more humane than most Christians and Muslims.

yaar where did this pirate come from again, have you been been fed up sailing the seas, now talking here about J10

[JF - 786]

Guys

what about the BVR capability of J10. we really need to excel in this area of warfare. Seniors, please put some light on it.

Cheers

[Londo Molari]

J-10's BVR performance is pretty much the same as F-16C, so its quite good enough for PAF. Its KLJ-10 slotted array radar can track 10 targets while simultaneously engaging 4 with PL-12/SD-10 missiles. I don't know how many targets in total it can detect, 40? And I don't know what the radar's range is... Jane's says 75km for 3sqm target (i.e. a flanker) but that may be conservative The missiles themselves have at least 80km range, which is greater than the AMRAAMS that we are buying from the US and putting on our F-16's. By the time we have J-10's, we'll also have our AWACS and datalink working, so it will become even more stealthy and deadly with BVR.

If we somehow get the J-10B version, then that's even better since it has an ESA radar which has a tonne of more advantages (stealthier, more targets, more range). Also keep an eye out for China's new super long range AAM's (150km+) which may finish development by the time we get our J-10's delivered.

Allah HU AKHBAR!

may Allah Bless Pakistan Army

How I wish Kayani would take over the country, I am SICK of democracy screwing up Pakistan!

Thankfully Kayani is much smarter than you and understands that democracy is the right way forward. The problem with Pakistan so far has not been democracy, but rather a lack of accountability for leaders, regardless of their source: civil or army. Mash'Allah now Pakistan has many checks and balances in place, such as independent judiciary and media, so corrupt and bad elements in government are automatically being plucked out every day, slowly but surely. And the army is providing a check as well, a superb job by Kayani so far. As long as he doesn't try to take over himself, he's doing the country a great service. He's too patriotic to do something like that.

[JF - 786]

J-10's BVR performance is pretty much the same as F-16C, so its quite good enough for PAF. Its KLJ-10 slotted array radar can track 10 targets while simultaneously engaging 4 with PL-12/SD-10 missiles. I don't know how many targets in total it can detect, 40? And I don't know what the radar's range is... Jane's says 75km for 3sqm target (i.e. a flanker) but that may be conservative The missiles themselves have at least 80km range, which is greater than the AMRAAMS that we are buying from the US and putting on our F-16's. By the time we have J-10's, we'll also have our AWACS and datalink working, so it will become even more stealthy and deadly with BVR.

If we somehow get the J-10B version, then that's even better since it has an ESA radar which has a tonne of more advantages (stealthier, more targets, more range). Also keep an eye out for China's new super long range AAM's (150km+) which may finish development by the time we get our J-10's delivered.

Thanks Londo for information. According to this video, its radar can track 20 and engage 4 target. http://www.youtube.c...A...PL&index=33

[GreenBeret]

Beggars can't be choosers. We can't rely on China. Their genetics is not close to ours.

They have let this joker loose again to derail threads . Thats just great !

[vikasrehman]

J-10's BVR performance is pretty much the same as F-16C, so its quite good enough for PAF. Its KLJ-10 slotted array radar can track 10 targets while simultaneously engaging 4 with PL-12/SD-10 missiles. I don't know how many targets in total it can detect, 40? And I don't know what the radar's range is... Jane's says 75km for 3sqm target (i.e. a flanker) but that may be conservative The missiles themselves have at least 80km range, which is greater than the AMRAAMS that we are buying from the US and putting on our F-16's. By the time we have J-10's, we'll also have our AWACS and datalink working, so it will become even more stealthy and deadly with BVR.

If we somehow get the J-10B version, then that's even better since it has an ESA radar which has a tonne of more advantages (stealthier, more targets, more range). Also keep an eye out for China's new super long range AAM's (150km+) which may finish development by the time we get our J-10's delivered.

Unless Im mistaken that 75 Km range given by Janes is in the look up mode (35 Km in the look down mode...way too conservative in my opinion) and is for its smaller brother KLJ-7. And yes KLJ-7 can manage up to 40 targets. KLJ-10's range should (in theory at least) be greater. I must also add that I have seen a brochure stating that KLJ-7 can manage 40 targets, track 10 in TWS mode, engage 2 simultaneously and has ranges of >105/>85 km in LU/LD modes, respectively against 5m2 targets (one can adjust for the RCS using the relevant equations).

As for the range of AMRAAM, C5's (the version PAF is getting) range is usually quoted as around 105 Km, though without the specifics (the conditions under which it is launched).

[Nawabshah]

Pakistan should get TOT and assemble the J-10B aka FC-20 in Pakistan. The era of buying fully assembled fighters must end. Pakistan can open another facilty to assemble than manufacture it's own FC-20s like the JF-17. We have been sanctioned by US so many times and now we must insist on TOT and local assemly of arms.

[vikasrehman]

Pakistan should get TOT and assemble the J-10B aka FC-20 in Pakistan. The era of buying fully assembled fighters must end. Pakistan can open another facilty to assemble than manufacture it's own FC-20s like the JF-17. We have been sanctioned by US so many times and now we must insist on TOT and local assemly of arms.

Don't forget about the feasibility/economics of such a project. Numbers (units procured/produced) are always of great importance here. For example if PAF procures 40 J-10, the cost would be X. If these planes are to be produced in Pakistan then due to cheaper labour etc., though the cost of the unit could be X-Y, but paying for ToT/establishment of production line would make the cost (X-Y)+Z, which might be greater than the original X (if they are directly purchased). Generally speaking, ToT/in house production is usually feasible if large numbers are involved, as Pakistan is doing with JF-17.

On another note, even if large numbers are involved, I do not think Pak aviaition industry is (at present) ready to absorb the technology for something like J-10B. Take a look at JF-17 for an example. The whole project would be implemented in various, i.e. start with assembly in first phase, then move on to assembly from semi-knocked down kits, then from completely knocked down kits, and only then manufacturing from the complete raw materials (exclusing certain parts, from what we know today). But this would take years if not decades to get to that stage.

[pirateofthecarribean]

I guess we are not counting on that F-16 deal now that the Dems are in power. J-10 would be good then.

[vikasrehman]

I guess we are not counting on that F-16 deal now that the Dems are in power. J-10 would be good then.

Oh yes. Don't doubt its this OR that. PAF is very much looking forward to those 18 (plus 18, if the option for additional aircrafts is exercised) new Block 52+ and 45 (plus 12 which the US is meant to supply yet) upgraded F-16s. That's 4-5 squadrons of very advanced F-16s that would almost double PAF's defence/strike capabilities, and PAF WANTS THEM.

As for FC-20 (J-10), its an additional capability as well as leverage (against any mishaps from US). Their numbers in PAF service would be determined by the number of F-16s in PAF, besides many other factors.

[Saqr]

Oh yes. Don't doubt its this OR that. PAF is very much looking forward to those 18 (plus 18, if the option for additional aircrafts is exercised) new Block 52+ and 45 (plus 12 which the US is meant to supply yet) upgraded F-16s. That's 4-5 squadrons of very advanced F-16s that would almost double PAF's defence/strike capabilities, and PAF WANTS THEM.

As for FC-20 (J-10), its an additional capability as well as leverage (against any mishaps from US). Their numbers in PAF service would be determined by the number of F-16s in PAF, besides many other factors.

Indeed. There is also the prospect of PAF acquiring many used F-16C/D and putting them through CCIP - potentially with RACR/SABR AESA - from USAF stocks. In fact, the previous ACM said this offer was directly made by USAF to PAF. Given the strong possibility of the LM production line extending into 2011-2012, the PAF also has the option to order additional new-built F-16s. So looking at all the options available, the PAF can certainly have a fleet of 100+ F-16s, and I'm sure PAF will pursue this option if available.

[platinum786]

Everyone please ignore the f**king a*s*s-hole Pirateofthecaribbean .

He is going to be banned, permanently.

[M_ZEE32]

Everyone please ignore the f**king a*s*s-hole Pirateofthecaribbean .

He is going to be banned, permanently.

Ok Boss !

[Nawabshah]

Don't forget about the feasibility/economics of such a project. Numbers (units procured/produced) are always of great importance here. For example if PAF procures 40 J-10, the cost would be X. If these planes are to be produced in Pakistan then due to cheaper labour etc., though the cost of the unit could be X-Y, but paying for ToT/establishment of production line would make the cost (X-Y)+Z, which might be greater than the original X (if they are directly purchased). Generally speaking, ToT/in house production is usually feasible if large numbers are involved, as Pakistan is doing with JF-17.

On another note, even if large numbers are involved, I do not think Pak aviaition industry is (at present) ready to absorb the technology for something like J-10B. Take a look at JF-17 for an example. The whole project would be implemented in various, i.e. start with assembly in first phase, then move on to assembly from semi-knocked down kits, then from completely knocked down kits, and only then manufacturing from the complete raw materials (exclusing certain parts, from what we know today). But this would take years if not decades to get to that stage.

It has been reported in the media that Pakistan intends to have 150 J-10B after the initial order of 36 fighters. We need to have TOT and build our own facilities to assemble our fighters. That will create infrastucture and good paying jobs for local population. Even Sweden with only 8 million people have aviation industry producing Gripen fighter and Erieye AWACs. Even India is insisting on more than 50% local content in its MRCA competition for 126 fighters.

[vikasrehman]

It has been reported in the media that Pakistan intends to have 150 J-10B after the initial order of 36 fighters. We need to have TOT and build our own facilities to assemble our fighters. That will create infrastucture and good paying jobs for local population. Even Sweden with only 8 million people have aviation industry producing Gripen fighter and Erieye AWACs. Even India is insisting on more than 50% local content in its MRCA competition for 126 fighters.

PAF intends get as many as 150, but those intentions depend on various other factors such as the total number of F-16s and JF-17 PAF, Indian plans, what is suitable & available for PAF, and last but by no means least their resources. Sweden has all that, because Sweden has been developing its aviation industry for years, and Pakistan is only starting. Indian can ask for that because Indians are paying $10/12/14 billion cash. A lot of the times, its simply the science of the economics.

[bojangles]

It has been reported in the media that Pakistan intends to have 150 J-10B after the initial order of 36 fighters. We need to have TOT and build our own facilities to assemble our fighters. That will create infrastucture and good paying jobs for local population. Even Sweden with only 8 million people have aviation industry producing Gripen fighter and Erieye AWACs. Even India is insisting on more than 50% local content in its MRCA competition for 126 fighters.

You can have TOT without building a facility.. Just send some of your engineers to the factories in China, which I'm sure will be done. Why build a facility that will produce a maximum of 150 fighters. With the JF17 we will have 250-300 fighters for Pakistan itself, plus the possibility of export. I doubt the numbers will go above 150, seeing as the planned amount would be roughly 100 F16, 250 JF17s and 150 J10 (if we purchase the additional F16s and J10s). The air force should then go for the next generation of fighter aircraft (small yet lethal number of 5th generation fighters).

[Malikman]

PAF intends get as many as 150, but those intentions depend on various other factors such as the total number of F-16s and JF-17 PAF, Indian plans, what is suitable & available for PAF, and last but by no means least their resources. Sweden has all that, because Sweden has been developing its aviation industry for years, and Pakistan is only starting. Indian can ask for that because Indians are paying $10/12/14 billion cash. A lot of the times, its simply the science of the economics.

There are no confirmed reports on even intentions of PAF, there is just an indication that with the right mix of radars/engine/weapons suite PAF will definitely order more than the 36 J-10B's. With 150 JF-17's and appx 100 F-16's PAF is not really going to break it's back to procure these fighters.

Ordering just two squadron of J-10B's now with the t&c that PAF gets is good economic sense.

[Nawabshah]

You can have TOT without building a facility.. Just send some of your engineers to the factories in China, which I'm sure will be done. Why build a facility that will produce a maximum of 150 fighters. With the JF17 we will have 250-300 fighters for Pakistan itself, plus the possibility of export. I doubt the numbers will go above 150, seeing as the planned amount would be roughly 100 F16, 250 JF17s and 150 J10 (if we purchase the additional F16s and J10s). The air force should then go for the next generation of fighter aircraft (small yet lethal number of 5th generation fighters).

By that logic we should also have not built Wah and Kamra. Pakistan must move forward toward developing self reliance by building our own defence industry. The defence industry provides higher paying good jobs for engineers and technicians. This will also result in new engineering departments in Pakistan universities and technical colleges to produce these technical workers. Now many Pakistani engineers are driving taxis in US and Canada.

[qureshi]

J-10B is the best option available and i think PAF want J-10B as good as Indian any MRCA and important thing is time line could be same they will get it round 2015 and we will get it round about 2015.Thats why PAF want some thing perfect to counter the MRCA challange.

[Malikman]

spot on, the j-10b's will pacify the mrca challenge. the radar/weapons suite will be adjusted to the final mrca features.

[bojangles]

By that logic we should also have not built Wah and Kamra. Pakistan must move forward toward developing self reliance by building our own defence industry. The defence industry provides higher paying good jobs for engineers and technicians. This will also result in new engineering departments in Pakistan universities and technical colleges to produce these technical workers. Now many Pakistani engineers are driving taxis in US and Canada.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Ideally yes, we should. Realistically speaking, however, we cannot afford to build the production line for the FC20. Limited resources forces prioritization.

[JF - 786]

spot on, the j-10b's will pacify the mrca challenge. the radar/weapons suite will be adjusted to the final mrca features.

Do you still have the same thought, if india goes for Su35 or F-18.

[vikasrehman]

Indeed. There is also the prospect of PAF acquiring many used F-16C/D and putting them through CCIP - potentially with RACR/SABR AESA - from USAF stocks. In fact, the previous ACM said this offer was directly made by USAF to PAF. Given the strong possibility of the LM production line extending into 2011-2012, the PAF also has the option to order additional new-built F-16s. So looking at all the options available, the PAF can certainly have a fleet of 100+ F-16s, and I'm sure PAF will pursue this option if available.

Indeed there was an article in Jane back in July stating PAF as one of the airforces which could receive additional F-16s to supplement/replace older F-16s. As for the newer model, that would be dictated by availability both in terms of Pakistan's future relations with US and Pakistan's economical state. As for the LM's production line, I think Egypt's order for 24 new F-16s would materialise soon followed by a few more orders, and the line would continue till JSF arrives.

As for any additional older F-16s (for PAF) having an AESA type radar, I think that is extremely unlikely. PAF opted for APG-68(V)9 for its new machines and MLU package, and these would serve for years to comes. An AESA is most likely to b considered only when the new machines are up for an upgrade (after 2020) and only then any remaining old F-16s (C/D models, if they materialise over the years) might be considered for such an upgrade for commonality. I think JF-17/FC-20, especially the latter (if they are successful in PAF service) are more likely to be considered for an AESA type prior to F-16s.