76 replies to this topic

[nuclearpak]

Actually the Saab Erieye has a modified fuel tank built into the fusesladge, the info is on the net so you can read up on it those who are interested it doesnt need IFR due to that cause it has more than enough station time in the air.

I know about the Aux fuel tank, it was the provision of IFR thing by Dizasta that surprised me...

[irfan_kashmir]

how does india's AWACS differs from that of Pakistan's ?

can any body through light into this topic ?

[blueazure]

ERIEYEs already have sufficient on-station time, ( also given Pakistan's relatively small airspace to defend ) ,

i assume PAF commanders would be more worried about IAF Flanker suicide attacks with long range AAMs rather than crew fatigue if need comes for a conflict

[shabi1]

ERIEYEs already have sufficient on-station time, ( also given Pakistan's relatively small airspace to defend ) ,

i assume PAF commanders would be more worried about IAF Flanker suicide attacks with long range AAMs rather than crew fatigue if need comes for a conflict

In wartime AWACs would probably always fly with escort fighters ready to engage. For Erieye it would be most likely be Link 16/ AMRAAM equipped F-16s as the Erieye can do the targeting/ missile guidance work for the F-16s. The F-16s would have their radars turned off so that their chances of enemy's detection is reduced.

The Swedes already advertise this tactic for their Grippen armed with AMRAAMs.

Don't know if Chinese ZDK AWACs have this ability but they have their own Link16 equivalent for directly interfacing with JF-17s and F-22P frigates. No information if SD-10 could be AWACs guided but Im pretty sure this would be on the cards if not already implemented.

[shabi1]

Here's the answer to what makes Pakistani AWACs different from the ones India has, despite differences in size and coverage area. AMRAAM Cooperative engagement mode with Erieye. Why AWACs are massive force multipliers for PAF and probably the rationality behind buying 500 AMRAAMs. F-16s might be with conditions but they still pack a real punch with the right tactics. India has Israeli AWACs systems and there is no data linking with Russian BVR missiles, disadvantage of multi sourcing with different standards. Could change once it inducts Rafaels with the ability to carry Meteor missile. But for now this is one trick up PAF's sleeve only.

[Miroslav]

India has Israeli AWACs systems and there is no data linking with Russian BVR missiles, disadvantage of multi sourcing with different standards. Could change once it inducts Rafaels with the ability to carry Meteor missile. But for now this is one trick up PAF's sleeve only.

Wow the Indians are so stupid.

Despite of what you have said the stupid Indians are ordering 2 more AWACS from ISRAEL.

[Miroslav]

how does india's AWACS differs from that of Pakistan's ?

can any body through light into this topic ?

I dont know the comparisons but I can give you some stuff to read on PHALCON and DRDO AWACS.

PHALCON

http://www.defensein...2-fronts-04855/

http://www.indiastra...pstories289.htm

http://www.rediff.co.../20090528.htm#1

DRDO AWACS

http://3.bp.blogspot... AEW & CS-1.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot... AEW & CS-2.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot... AEW & CS-3.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot... AEW & CS-4.jpg

[shabi1]

The primary function of an AWAC is radar coverage. For increased coverage more AWACs are always good, buying more isn't stupid. The co-op engagement mode is a bonus feature, not a primary function of an AWAC.

[blueazure]

my point was regarding india's acquisition (?) of long range AAMs sourced from Russia to specifically defeat ERIEYEs

http://www.ausairpow...us-BVR-AAM.html


Novator RVV-L / R-172 / K-100

The R-172, previously designated the KS-172, is a departure from the established focus of Novator, designers of the S-300V (SA-12) system's long range SAMs. Like the R-37, the R-172 was developed as an 'AWACS killer'. The missile employs an active radar seeker and inertial midcourse guidance. Two configurations are known, with and without a booster pack. With the booster the missile is claimed to achieve a range of 215 NMI, without 160 NMI. Cited seeker performance is similar to the R-37.

While the R-172 is less mature than the R-37, India has recently negotiated an arrangement to fund final development and licence produce the weapon, not unlike the extant deal to licence the Yakhont as the BrahMos.

[aamirzs]

https://www.facebook...&type=2

[aamirzs]

http://www.planespot...istan-Air-Force

[platinum786]

Here's the answer to what makes Pakistani AWACs different from the ones India has, despite differences in size and coverage area. AMRAAM Cooperative engagement mode with Erieye. Why AWACs are massive force multipliers for PAF and probably the rationality behind buying 500 AMRAAMs. F-16s might be with conditions but they still pack a real punch with the right tactics. India has Israeli AWACs systems and there is no data linking with Russian BVR missiles, disadvantage of multi sourcing with different standards. Could change once it inducts Rafaels with the ability to carry Meteor missile. But for now this is one trick up PAF's sleeve only.

I found this diagram very useful. Great find. Sometimes pictures are worth a thousand words.

blueazure makes a good point, our awacs are not safe due to the R-37. One way we could combat that is to try and station SAM's closer to the border and use ground/air based radar to detect threats and engage them, perhaps even before they enter our airspace, for the majority of the time deploy the awacs defensively deep inside Pakistani territory and only push them closer to danger when attacking.

[nuclearpak]

blueazure makes a good point, our awacs are not safe due to the R-37. One way we could combat that is to try and station SAM's closer to the border and use ground/air based radar to detect threats and engage them, perhaps even before they enter our airspace, for the majority of the time deploy the awacs defensively deep inside Pakistani territory and only push them closer to danger when attacking.

That kind of negates the whole point of having a AWACS, well actually 8...

BTW, I don't think we have enough SAM's for this strategy, enemy standoff missiles can easily destroy the SAM's that we currently have without us (SAM) even knowing...we only have 10 batteries of SPADA, placed at airbases and other installations, Oerlikons guns aren't SAM, we don't have any S-300 type system either (all are rumors), so in short, our Long range High altitude Air defence system is severely lacking IMO, rendering this strategy in-effective.

[Panzer-kiel]

That kind of negates the whole point of having a AWACS, well actually 8...

BTW, I don't think we have enough SAM's for this strategy, enemy standoff missiles can easily destroy the SAM's that we currently have without us (SAM) even knowing...we only have 10 batteries of SPADA, placed at airbases and other installations, Oerlikons guns aren't SAM, we don't have any S-300 type system either (all are rumors), so in short, our Long range High altitude Air defence system is severely lacking IMO, rendering this strategy in-effective.

...sometimes a technologically inferior sides wins as well,they way the Serbs defended themselves during Op Allied Force in 1999, even shot down a F-117, there are always ways to match a technologically advanced enemy, if u tr match him in technology, u wont catch up with him forever......
...here are some tips and tricks as to how the F-117 was shot down, is a small but small read.......
http://www.strategyp...s/20051121.aspx
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Zoltán_Dani

[Panzer-kiel]

....its just like it used to be said k defence against a tank is another tank, which is only possible if u have a great number of tanks, but small number of ATGMs have solved the problem now....its always fruitful if u find the anti-dote of the enemy weapon u want to match, if u try to match him by using the same type of weapon, more chances are that u will loose......Saggers, SA-2 and SA-3 against IDF, same SA-2 against USAF F-117s.......weapons were the same, but the ground commander improvised and innovated.....that makes the difference!!

[Panzer-kiel]

...point is, getting ONLY Saabs AWACS wont do any good, we need to have proper support packages so that it goes into air with all the requisite protection it is required to have, ....its just like buying a aircraft carrier isnt any good, till the time u dont develop proper carrier battle groups.......thts the point!

[shabi1]

War is about tactics, its not like a push button video game. BVR engagements are like a cat and mouse game. PAF needs to have its tactics laid out well. The K-100 is an anti-radiation AA missile, and homes into the AWACs radar emissions, the Saab Erieye comes equipped with Saab's IDAS (Integrated Defensive Aids Suite). Once a missile is detected the pilot will get a warning to make evasive maneuvers plus automated defensive aids + electronic jamming systems will be triggered. The Saab 2000 actually has a tighter turn radius and more maneuverable then the larger AWAC platforms. If the Radar is powered Off the K-100 will not be able to track the location of the AWACs, whereas the Erieye has other on board sensors to continue tracking its target. The conventional seeker on a BVR missile only activates on the final phase of its flight but without mid course guidance it wont be able to reach its target. Unlike AG anti radiation missiles which continue flying using static target positions to attain a kill, the K-100 will be unable to determine its targets position. Not saying its a useless missile but its chances of kill can be greatly avoided if the right moves taken. India originally got interested in the K-100 to use against China.

Secondly PAF needs to have fighters on CAP ready to defend its AWACs, the AWAC will generally be able to detect enemy fighters at long range and notify its CAP aircraft to intercept. With AWACs Pakistan and India both are capable of observing when aircraft take off from each others front bases.

[nuclearpak]

http://jang.com.pk/j...013/u135608.htm

[1Pakistani]

^^ what does this have to do with this topic?

[nuclearpak]

^^ what does this have to do with this topic?

Couldn't find any existing Saab topic, and didn't think it needed a new thread.

I think this should be made the main Saab 2000/AWACS thread.

[Magnus]

Pinned.

[nuclearpak]

Can you also change the title?

[Magnus]

Edited by Magnus, 12 February 2013 - 06:27 PM.

[irfan_kashmir]

its wrong to assume that indians do not have datalink from Awacas to Sukhoi the custom built data link costed them couple of million $$$$

which drastically increased the cost

[Danish Moazzam]

Saw one flying near the Arabian sea. @ Churna Island

[nuclearpak]

Saw one flying near the Arabian sea. @ Churna Island

Are you sure it wasn't ZDK-03?

[Danish Moazzam]

Are you sure it wasn't ZDK-03?

Definitely, grey camo and was flying pretty low. A helicopter and couple of fighters went in first. then a few minutes later the plane came flying by. definite sleek shape of Saab-2000 was clear.

ZDK-03 has rotary dome. KJ-200 has beam antenna but it has 4 propeller engines. where as saab-2000 has two.

[nuclearpak]

Definitely, grey camo and was flying pretty low. A helicopter and couple of fighters went in first. then a few minutes later the plane came flying by. definite sleek shape of Saab-2000 was clear.

ZDK-03 has rotary dome. KJ-200 has beam antenna but it has 4 propeller engines. where as saab-2000 has two.

Maybe part of the ongoing Saffron Bandit exercise? A interception by a assault team and fighters after being vectored in by the AWACS?

But ZDK-03's are reserved for the maritime role as I understand...in the Arabian sea, so that's why I asked the question.

[Magnus]

http://www.defensein...pakistan-02377/

[Magnus]

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21 March 2013, in Press Release
Defence and security company Saab has today signed a support contract for airborne surveillance system. The contract amounts to MSEK1,100 over 2013-2017.

The contract concerns a comprehensive set of spares and support services for a previously delivered system, Saab 2000 AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning & Control). The Saab 2000 AEW&C comprises of Saab 2000 aircraft equipped with the advanced Erieye radar system and ground equipment.

The wide-area surveillance system in combination with ground equipment enables control over both land and sea, and can play an important role for border surveillance and rescue operations as well as in combating terrorism and organised crime.

"Our surveillance system provides the customer with improved solutions for defence and civil security. This contract is a result of our close cooperation with our customer and can be seen as a further confirmation of our strong capability to provide our customers with advanced service and support solutions”, says Gunilla Fransson, Head of Saab’s business area Security and Defence Solutions.

Saab offers airborne surveillance systems for a wide range of use. The systems can be based on different platforms and delivered as turn key solutions including a comprehensive set of advanced support, spare part services and training. Saab’s Erieye radar system has been provided on several platforms, for example Saab 2000, Saab 340 and Embraer 145, and sold to eight different customers around the world.

The industry’s nature is such that depending on circumstances concerning the product and customer, information regarding the customer will not be announced.

Saab serves the global market with world-leading products, services and solutions ranging from military defence to civil security. Saab has operations and employees on all continents and constantly develops, adopts and improves new technology to meet customers’ changing needs.

For further information, please contact:

Saab Press Centre, +46 (0)734 180 018, pressc...@saabgroup.com

www.saabgroup.com

www.saabgroup.com/Twitter

www.saabgroup.com/YouTube

The information is that which Saab AB is required to declare by the Securities Business Act and/or the Financial instruments Trading Act. The information was submitted for publication on March 21 at 12.15. CET

http://www.saabgroup...illance-system/

[Magnus]

Taliban destroyed the Swedish-financed plan (Google Translation)
Updated 2013-04-10 08:45. Published 2013-04-10 06:14

Photo: B. K. Bangash
Three radar planes of Pakistan Air Force bought munitions manufacturer Saab with borrowed money from the Swedish state is shattered in a terrorist attack.
Saab can expect a new billion order while the Swedish taxpayers sitting with 5-6 billion in bad loans.

Early on the morning of August 16 last year, nine well-armed men attacked the airbase at Kamra, six mil from the capital Islamabad.

Ad:
FACTS
AIRBORNE SURVEILLANCE
Erieye is an airborne radar system that was developed by Ericsson Microwave on behalf of the Swedish Armed Forces 1985-93.
The radar system is mounted on top of an airplane and can detect flygmål 450 kilometers away, but also targets on the ground and at sea.
That night was three Saab 2000 aircraft with Erieye radar system established on the base - and all in the same space, according to Di's sources. The terrorists chose delete other tempting targets.

After a several hours long firefight with automatic weapons, explosives and rocket launchers were the attackers dead.

The ultra-modern Swedish radar planes were badly damaged, but the government and the security forces embarrassing story quieted down. Officially stated immediately after the battle that the nose cone of the plane had been damaged.

At the same time took the Pakistani Taliban group Teh-reek-i-Taliban claimed responsibility for the attack. In a statement explaining that the attack was revenge for the terrorist leaders Baitullah Mehsud and Osama Bin Laden's death.

Only recently, in February, admits Pakistan's Defence Ministry loss of one of the most expensive Swedish radar plan.

In Sweden, only a few people to what happened with Saab plan and their valuable Erieyesystem.

Two independent sources say the Di that one of Erieyeplanen was completely destroyed and the other two planes are so severely injured that they have to undergo repairs.

In practice, the Swedish tax money which has now gone up in smoke in a Taliban attack. State Swedish Export has namely funded plan through a credit agreement of 7.4 billion concluded 2006th

In May 2012 came the final order, and only a few months later - in August - beating the Taliban.

It is about the Pakistani Air Force Perhaps the single most valuable asset, and not just the purchase price of SEK 7 billion. Erieye is counted as one of the most advanced surveillance systems and has made it possible for Pakistan to have full control over what happens in the air, and to a large extent on the ground.

Only one of the four Erieyeplanen escaped the attack. It was elsewhere in Pakistan.

Government of Pakistan is now very anxious to get the two damaged planes repaired with Saab's help and discussions have taken place at express speed.

Saab can expect 1-2 billion in payment for new supplies of support and spares, deliveries may start already this year.

ISP stopped all new business with Pakistan in 2007, referring to unrest in the country, but the repairs are classified as follow-on deliveries. And since Saab's original application to the ISP about six planes are also nothing to prevent the company from selling to one, according to Di's sources.

The full version of the article and a detailed description of the tours in the supermarket can be found in Wednesday's edition of Today's industry. On Thursday promised another revelation in the controversial deal.

Original link in Swedish: http://www.di.se/art...ansierade-plan/

[MoThSmOkE]

Embarrassing incident for PAF.

3 Eriyes destroyed by the terrorists. All parked in the same base. WTF?!?!?

[Jazba-e-Kashmir]

i've read the original article in Swedish, and the comments by Swedish commentators are furious.
Some say either the new orders will get Swedish people to work, thus profiting the Swedish state account - though somewhat paid by the Swedish taxpayers.

Or the Swedish state demands payments prior to new delieveries.

And i can personally witness the mindset and culture here in Scandinavia is: why should anyone get anything for free - pay taxes and then you can gain beneficiaries, health and social support for free.
If not; then go to jail, be condemned and hated by society.

I wont be surprised if the Swedish news media channels and political parties will create a hype about this, thus getting a public acknowledge to prevent taxpayers to pay for the planes. Thus pressurizing the politicians to let Pakistan/PAF buy from their own accounts.

And eventually demanding someone from SAAB or the defence ministry have to resign for having been irresponsible in using taxpayers money to such trade.


Peace

[Magnus]

March 21/13: Need a fix. Saab announces a 5-year, SEK 1.1 billion ($170 million) contract that runs from 2013-2017, and covers “a comprehensive set of spares and support services for a previously delivered system, Saab 2000 AEW&C (Airborne Early Warning & Control).” Unfortunately, “The industry’s nature is such that depending on circumstances concerning the product and customer, information regarding the customer will not be announced.”

The answer seemed obvious. Air forces using Saab turboprop AWACS include Sweden, Thailand and the UAE (Saab 340), and Pakistan and Saudi Arabia (stretched Saab 2000 variant). Pakistan’s sale is well known and hasn’t been secret, so a Saab 2000 AEW&C customer insisting on secrecy must mean… Saudi Arabia.

Except that we might have been wrong. What even the February revelations in Pakistan hadn’t disclosed is that the attack on Minhas AB in Pakistan happened with 3 Erieye planes on the ground. One was destroyed – but 2 others were very badly damaged. That leaves Pakistan with a fleet of just 1 plane, until it gets those 2 fixed. That could explain this $170 million contract, with the sudden secrecy invoked because Pakistan doesn’t want to publicly admit the extent of the loss; indeed, if Saab doesn’t announce a separate SEK 1+ billion support contract soon, the default assumption for this deal must become Pakistan.

The problem for Sweden, says Sweden’s Dagens Industri in an April 10/13 article, is that the original purchase was funded by a 2006 credit arrangement of SEK 7.4 billion from the Swedish Export Credit and Export Credits Guarantee Board. Now they’ll have to add SEK 1+ billion to cover this, all to a country that isn’t viewed as a terrific credit risk. Our Swedish source says that Dagen Industri is about to break a follow-on story involving “questionable commissions” related to the sale. No, we’re not shocked, either. But Sweden has laws that will be enforced, even if Pakistan’s aren’t. Saab Group | Dagens Industri [in Swedish].

Feb 6-9/13: Revelations. Defence Secretary Lt. Gen. (ret.) Asif Yasin Malik informs Pakistan’s National Assembly Standing Committee on Defence that the defence installations saw their last attacks in Peshawar and the Kamra airbase, but adds that an AWACS plane was destroyed during the attack on Kamra AB in August 2012. Initially, it isn’t clear which AWACS plane type he’s referring to, but a subsequent report by Pakistan’s The News International confirms that it was one of Saab’s S2000 AEW planes.

That’s a bit awkward, because Pakistani authorities have apparently been claiming for the last 6 months that the attack had just damaged an aircraft’s nose cone, and that it would be repaired in Sweden. The report also refers to “one of the four” planes, which would finally provide a reliable number.

Speaking of reliable numbers, the report quotes varied prices per plane of $130-140 million, up to $250 million. It’s true that the final, reduced deal was worth about $1 billion, so dividing by 4 does get $250 million. On the other hand, any purchase like this must also include extensive training, a full stock of spare parts, and extensive initial support. A $140 million per plane figure implies a split of $560 million planes (140 x 4) + $440 million support etc. That seems high, but it all depends on the level of support provided. The News International | TNI follow-on .

http://www.defensein...pakistan-02377/

[irfan_kashmir]

Embarrassing incident for PAF. 3 Eriyes destroyed by the terrorists. All parked in the same base. WTF?!?!?

These air crafts are not tempting targets for terrorist , i do not think terrorist gained anything by destroying these aircrafts , i think they must have been paid either by america or india to destroy these aircrafts...

[irfan_kashmir]

I found this diagram very useful. Great find. Sometimes pictures are worth a thousand words. blueazure makes a good point, our awacs are not safe due to the R-37. One way we could combat that is to try and station SAM's closer to the border and use ground/air based radar to detect threats and engage them, perhaps even before they enter our airspace, for the majority of the time deploy the awacs defensively deep inside Pakistani territory and only push them closer to danger when attacking.

The Scenario is based on the assumption that the hostile Mig 29s does not have a awacas cover remember one of the Mig 29 can act as mini awcas in case they do not have a awcas cover, in the classic case the mig 29 formation can sacrifice one air craft but the mig 29 will also achieve a Kill ...

[nuclearpak]

So in the end the truth has come out...