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#81
PakShaheen
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Posted 30 November 2004 - 07:02 AM
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#82
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Posted 01 December 2004 - 07:23 AM
it's ok, if you need to
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#83
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Posted 20 December 2004 - 12:47 PM
Its more like this;
- 4 F-22P
- 3 Agosta-90B
- 4 ??? 2400-3000 Ton Frigates
- 4 ??? SSK Attack Submarines
- 4 Z-9EC Anti-Submarine Helicopters
- 8 P-3C Orion Anti-Submarine Warfare & Maritime Patrol Aircraft
- 4 Fast Attack Missile Stealth Boats
- 4 Fast Attack Patrol Stealth Boats
- ? Jalalat Class Fast Attack Missile Boats
- ? ???? AEW&C
- Long-Range Anti-Ship Cruise Missile
well it should be like this
our current TYPE 21 upgraded
4 F22P
2/3 FFG-7s or any french, ukrainian stealth are also an available option
PN should be given LUHAI ddgs
mixed class MBs like singapore and thai TOT baots
turkish stealth MBs
larakana and jalalat class
upgraded hungfen
ad some MAS and hovers for marines
3 augusta 90b and 3 more as stated many times by PN personnels
current 70 b (UPGRADES???)
chinese YUWAN(sp?) class are my fav for pn
2 ERIEYE
longer ranger SAMs, SS, and anti ship/sub missiles
12 P3C
25 Z9
and for air strike FBC1 A or B suites the conditions
some SA10 and HQ18
#84
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Posted 20 December 2004 - 04:49 PM
#85
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Posted 21 December 2004 - 06:05 AM
the number of Z9 will be more than 4 i guesss 10 or 12
#86
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Posted 19 May 2005 - 01:28 PM
Personally i thin 12 is a very good number
#87
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Posted 19 May 2005 - 03:34 PM
Personally i thin 12 is a very good number
Thing is, if the PN gets the 3 Type-23s from U.K, you can expect 3-4 more Lynx helicopters, and if we do get another 4-6 F-22Ps (in addition to the 4 already ordered), we can expect a total of 10-12 Z-9s IMO. Note the helicopter numbers are not in ratio with the frigates, other things will be considered too, so the number may be less or more.
#88
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Posted 19 May 2005 - 11:59 PM
We will need more helicopters considering spare parts.
#89
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Posted 22 May 2005 - 04:54 PM
Z-9ECs coming from China, I'm not too worried

However, about the Lynx Helicopter, I think the PN should stock up on spare-parts, just incase the U.K decides to act gay and inflict an embargo on Pakistan.
#90
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Posted 22 May 2005 - 05:25 PM
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#91
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Posted 23 May 2005 - 10:07 AM

However, about the Panther Helicopter, I think the PN should stock up on spare-parts, just incase the U.K decides to act gay and inflict an embargo on Pakistan.
You are right!
We are getting transfer of technology on Z-9 helicopters and there is a possibility that we might get TOT for U.K Type 23 friggate, this should give TOT for Panther too! So lets just hope!
Edited by cheenamalai, 23 May 2005 - 10:09 AM.
#92
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Posted 28 May 2005 - 04:27 PM
i mean the following
1.Navy-Agosta90B Subs(better than any sub in bhindian inventory and even bhindians themselves agree)
2.Attack Helicopter:Cobras and they r being upgraded
3.Nukes:more than a hundred and their terminal guidance compared to bhindian intertia guidance plus our range AND all of ours r under production whereas one or two bhindians are.
4.PAF pilots:Do i need to say anything?
Someone can add more if i missed something.During the modernization plan i hope all the above are considered to be improved.
#93
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Posted 05 June 2005 - 04:06 PM
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#94
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Posted 06 June 2005 - 07:06 AM
especially with our network management system to coordinate our troop movements, we might have the advanctage on the ground
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#95
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Posted 22 August 2005 - 04:00 AM
With these costs, it is imperative that arms export profits (not revenues) are used to subsidise & finance military expenditures. That means that exports of the JF-17, K-8, Al'Khalid MBT 2000, & Type 85 & even the Al'Zarrar (as a rebuild) should be promoted with vigour. Likewise, the Anzah III SAM should be developed for export & with higher grade performance. In addition, contracts for the training of F-7 pilots should be pushed as well as maintance & overhauls of similar types like MiG-21s. It is very possible for Pakistan to treble military revenues in a short period of time.
~Zechs Marquise (AC 195) Mobile Suit Gundam Wing
#96
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Posted 28 August 2005 - 05:16 AM
Better (MLU) avionics for JF17.
150-300 JF17.
Maybe a squadron Rafale.
Around 75-100 K8
Around 200 Mushaq
Weapons:
Aim9M version 8/9 : 500
Aim9X?
HMS for F16/JF17
IRST
Amraam 3c-5 : 500
Jdam : 500
SD-10 : 1000 (internal production)
new anti radiation missile
Exit:
Durandal (replaced by Baber)
MK80-84 (replavced by Baber)
Maverick (If left)
Aim 9P (-4)
All chinese IR missiles if not comparable with AIM9L/M
New developments:
Fueltanker
UCAV
UAV
BVR
Exit:
all non Rose 3 mirages
All P
All PG
All A5
All F16 block 15
All T37
To handle others, use your heart.
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Average minds discuss events;
Small minds discuss people.
There is no beginning or end....
Yesterday is history.
Tomorrow is mystery.
Today is a gift.
#97
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Posted 23 October 2005 - 05:31 AM
the real Question is how we must make our economy strong.
we must not put lots of money in defence toys right away.
we have nukes and they assure that no one will find it an adventure to start a war with us anytime soon.
we must do the slow and continues investment in defence but at the same time we should work on economy.
The most sensible post in this thread.

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#98
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Posted 23 October 2005 - 09:22 AM
=================
- 35 JAS-39 Gripen
- 55 F-16C/D Block-52
- 60 F-16A/B MLU (35 + 25 additions)
- 150 JF-17 (with avionics on-par with MLU's)
- 7 Saab-2000 Erieye AEW&C
- 20-30 Blawkhawk/Huey transport helicopters
- 24 C-130B/E medium-lift transport aircraft
- Meteor
- IRST
- AIM-120B/C
- AIM-9M/Q/X
- R-Darter
- A-Darter
- AGM-84L Harpoon-Block-II
- Exocet MM40 Block-III
- Babur
#99
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Posted 23 October 2005 - 08:39 PM
=================
- 75 F-16C/D Block-52 (CFTs) - 40 active + 35 reserved for emergencies
- 200 JF-17 (with avionics on-par with MLU's) - all active
- 75 F-16A/B MLU (34 + 41 additions) - all active
- 50 non-flyable/stored F-16A/Bs - for spare-parts and attrition
- 50 JAS-39C/D Gripen - 35 active + 15 reserved for emergencies
- 6 Saab-2000 Erieye AEW&C - 4 active + 2 stored
- 4 E-2C Hawkeye-2000 AEW&C - 2 active + 2 stored
- 20-30 Blawkhawk/Huey transport helicopters
- 24 C-130B/E medium-lift transport aircraft
- Meteor
- IRST
- AIM-120B/C
- AIM-9M/Q/X
- R-Darter
- A-Darter
- AGM-84L Harpoon-Block-II
- Exocet MM40 Block-III
- Babur
Only problem is $$$$
what your proposing would be way to expensive, like 15 billion on just aquiring the platforms
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#100
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Posted 24 October 2005 - 02:34 PM
Who said modernization was cheap and easy? Also, platforms like C-130s, Blawkhawks, F-16A/Bs can all be acquired cheaply and second hand. Unlike some, I don't calculate the costs that specifically, as many factors are involved in the reduction/increase of price, but I can assure you, it isn't THAT expensive.
#101
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Posted 24 October 2005 - 07:06 PM
also, getting redundant systems and numbers that would consitite a bunch of the fleet, as well as go over the numbers we currently have might be too cumbersome for the PAF
200 f-16's, 200 jf-17's, 50 jas-39's
that's 450 planes, thats more then the current fleet
like you said, does the government have the money to do that
committing to older generation planes is not the way to go
getting the 150 jf-17's planned, and 75 f-16's (plus modernizing the current fleet) will give the PAF nearly 300 fighters of decent capability
during this time, focusing on the weapons these planes carry, while saving up more money for modernizing the rest of the infastruture and waiting for other things to mature, like the J-10 and J-XX
also the rafale and eurofighter will mature over the next 10 years, and by then the price might go down, just like the mirage 2000's price fell by 25% over the last 10 years
these are issues the PAF needs to look at, and the government will have t do before hastily commiting to funding a modernization that might need another modernization in 10-15 years (no offense)
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the E-2 was rejected by the PAF because it is considered obsolute technology
with second hand hueys already in Pakistan, we needs heavy lift helicopters, so chinooks not blackhawks are needed
c-130's could be aquired, but cheaper alternatives in new panes should be looked at, like the Y-9 being developed by china
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the 15 billion number is just a number i'm making up to say you are propsing spending alot, where money could have been better spent
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#102
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Posted 24 October 2005 - 07:32 PM
As for reduntant airframes, today, Pakistan is using F-7Ps, PGs, and 40-year old Mirages. Today, India is using MiG-21s, MiG-23s, MiG-27s, and Jaguars, which are more than 30 years old as well. The F-16A/B, isn't that reduntant in such an environment, it isn't at all really, its a significant boost to the PAF - who is flying fighters which should've been retired in the 90s - not much reduncancy. You can easily say that today, the basic, non MLU F-16A/B is superior to atleast 60% of the IAF.
The JF-17 isn't that much of an excellent fighter, its late, however its younger airframe, and ability to immediately host BVRAAMs, and be upgraded over time, is a good advantage, and producing them in high numbers will reduce the cost considerably. However, I doubt the speed China and Pakistan will be producing them, it may as well take them 20 years from 2010 to complete an order of 150-200, so in the meanwhile, what can Pakistan do to replace those Mirages and F-7s, cheaply? Likewise, F-16A/Bs will be retiring by 2020 anyways, so the JF-17 would gradually replace them.
As for Gripen, its a option to acquire a fighter on league with F-16s, but ability to carry more European weapons. The F-16 can be used as leverage to acquire Gripen relatively more cheaply (assuming the Swedes will sell).
Chinooks are a job for the Army, it shouldn't in the Air Force's nature to transport so many troops, and further burden its maintainence issues with expensive helicopters like that. Medium-Lift helicopters like Hueys and/or Blackhawks should be used by the Air Force. Blackhawks/more Hueys will replace the many Allouettes and Pumas in PAF service. Similarly, C-130, the PAF has the infastructure, its a very reliable aircraft, so there's no need to acquire a similar aircraft from another source. Pakistan did evaluate C-130J in the past, but it proved too expensive for a simply medium-lift transport aircraft - modern and beauty aren't everything.
#103
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Posted 24 October 2005 - 09:04 PM
(getting non-flyable f-16's wouldn't be useful, just getting spares would be cheaper than getting a full plane, potientially)
getting alot of f-16's makes the government want to not develop the jf-17 any further
it would be better if they made the jf-17 better rather then get old f-16's
focussing on the J-XX is not a waste, as it can serce as a good acquistion in the future, and while it is being developed, a way for the PAF to get technology or deisgn help to redesigning the jf-17 for future upgrades
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getting f-16's can be a way to get good planes at cheap prices, but being overly dependant on them will make Pakistan defenseless against sanctions
i agree getting the expensive things like f-15 and apaches aren't really vaible for Pakistan
also, the y-9 might be cheaper then used c-130's and even though new infastruture might be needed, getting the type might be good in the long haul, as it would diversify the fleet, and give the PAF the ability to rapidly accept chinee Y-9's during a war
diversifying with chinese equipement will allow Pakistan to rapidly take on chinese equipement, provided in secret, so that Pakistan can rapidly increase its numbers
the Pakistani chinese defense treaty, could mean something at least on the scale of sending these kinds of equipement
example: china could send at least 100 of its JF-17's(if they have at least 100 at that time) to Pakistan in case of war, rapidly increaing the PAF's numbers by at least 20%
if this were applied to chinese tranports, J-10's, helicopters, and weapons
i'm not saying we should dump american weapons (which are great), but keep a balance of chinese and american and european systems, so we are not dependnat on one source only
in the face of cheap used f-16's, the real goal of having the right force to face all possibilites, and sanctions could be one of them
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#104
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Posted 25 October 2005 - 06:12 AM
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(getting non-flyable f-16's wouldn't be useful, just getting spares would be cheaper than getting a full plane, potientially)
Thing is, you answered why we need 150 F-16s, because of possible embargoes. Not all of the 150 odd F-16s will be active in regular service, even in the normal political state. Out of the 150, I suggested in my post that roughly 115 (even less) will be active, that too in normal political stage. There is no need to keep 150 F-16s active in normal times, having even 100 would be good, given that they'll be backed by JF-17 and possibly another fighter. As for non-flyable F-16s, well its the best way to get spare-parts, and during an embargo, we can manage with non-flyable versions for a fairly long time, before resorting to cannabalism, it should give us enough time to find a replacement from Europe or China. We have managed to maintain 40 pretty well for 20 years, and ended up with 32, now imagine 75, with 50 non-flyable versions - I think till 2020-2025 is enough time.
Best way to fight against sanctions, is to plan, and have enough stockpiles to ensure that you can stay normal or even (before cannabalism), until you can find a replacement.
Logistical aircraft like C-130s aren't prone to embargoes, and there's nothing wrong with C-130 to warrant PAF to get another aircraft in the league. If anything, we would need to find a more advanced aircraft after the C-130s die from airframe life.
#105
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Posted 25 October 2005 - 05:58 PM
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Thing is, you answered why we need 150 F-16s, because of possible embargoes. Not all of the 150 odd F-16s will be active in regular service, even in the normal political state. Out of the 150, I suggested in my post that roughly 115 (even less) will be active, that too in normal political stage. There is no need to keep 150 F-16s active in normal times, having even 100 would be good, given that they'll be backed by JF-17 and possibly another fighter. As for non-flyable F-16s, well its the best way to get spare-parts, and during an embargo, we can manage with non-flyable versions for a fairly long time, before resorting to cannabalism, it should give us enough time to find a replacement from Europe or China. We have managed to maintain 40 pretty well for 20 years, and ended up with 32, now imagine 75, with 50 non-flyable versions - I think till 2020-2025 is enough time.
Best way to fight against sanctions, is to plan, and have enough stockpiles to ensure that you can stay normal or even (before cannabalism), until you can find a replacement.
Logistical aircraft like C-130s aren't prone to embargoes, and there's nothing wrong with C-130 to warrant PAF to get another aircraft in the league. If anything, we would need to find a more advanced aircraft after the C-130s die from airframe life.
yes good discussion
non-flyable f-16's are good sources of spares, but in reaility america might get
suspciuos, sort of like "what up Pakistan, you don't trust us"
if we don't procure Y-9's, we should at least have the infastruture at major bases to handle large tranports of other nations
in case of war, Pakistan could rapidly accept foriegn planes and put them in service
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#106
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Posted 25 October 2005 - 07:33 PM
suspciuos, sort of like "what up Pakistan, you don't trust us"
It really isn't their business of what we may or may not think, because in the end its our money, and our choice - we can always botch up the number of JF-17s, or even acquire a different Western or Chinese aircraft.
in case of war, Pakistan could rapidly accept foriegn planes and put them in service
Not only war, but even emergancy situations like the earthquake disaster. However, thats in case of war, and in South Asia, its quite unlikely unless one side has a terrible disadvantage. A disaster relief agency should be developed by the government, to handle different types of logistical vehicles, including heavy-lift helicopters and medium-lift transport aircraft.
#107
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Posted 25 October 2005 - 07:36 PM
Not only war, but even emergancy situations like the earthquake disaster. However, thats in case of war, and in South Asia, its quite unlikely unless one side has a terrible disadvantage.
they will suspect distrust, and it is their planes to sell
chinese planes based in Xinjiang and Tibet, could be rushed in, with their PLAAF symbol painted as a PAF symbol, and loaned to Pakistan (especially if Pakistan is being attacked)
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#108
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Posted 25 October 2005 - 07:39 PM
Then they don't have to sell, so they can lose to the Chinese defence industry for cheap and quick aircraft.
#109
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Posted 26 October 2005 - 09:04 AM
exactly and we will have to use planes from the 111 that will be totaled after this sale
instead of non-flable f-16, why not just get used f-16's and not give them a MLU
Pakistan has bought mirages and put in rose equirpement from other planes, once the older planes reached the end of their lives
so getting 50 F-16 block 15 A/B's would be better then Pakistan requesting "non-flyable planes"
also we might need the part that makes the pkane flyable, like certain engine parts, or hydrallic parts (and each air frame would only cost about $10 million according to some data a few years ago)
"Acquire knowledge, it enables its prosessor to distinguish right from wrong; it lights the way to heaven. It is our friend in the
desert, our company in solitude and companion when friendless. It guides us to happiness, it sustains us in misery, it is an ornament amongst friends and an armor against enemies." (widely attributed to the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh))
#110
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Posted 30 October 2005 - 07:37 PM
On another note, I wouldn't mind seeing a few fighters like Rafale or F-15E entering the PAF fleet. Although pricy, I think the costs of these aircraft will go down over time, and the PAF can try to acquire 2nd hand.
We know the PAF will ultimately acquire/order;
- 55 F-16C/D Block-52 - hopefully with CFTs, dorsal spine, etc.
- 60 F-16A/B MLU (35 + 25 from new order)
- 150 JF-17 - armed with good Western avionics and different armaments
- 14 Mirage ROSE-III (totalling the ROSE fleet to about 70?)
- 40 K-8 Jet Trainers (12 + 28 new ones)
- 7 Saab-2000 Erieye AEW&C
#111
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Posted 04 November 2005 - 01:02 AM
On another note, I wouldn't mind seeing a few fighters like Rafale or F-15E entering the PAF fleet. Although pricy, I think the costs of these aircraft will go down over time, and the PAF can try to acquire 2nd hand.
F-15E is PAF service is impossible. Instead, why not wait for India to choose 126 F-16s and Russia offering its aircrafts to PAF.
PAF showed its interest in Su-27 and Su-30 fighters in the past. Although we could get Su-27s from Ukraine (just as we got T-84 tanks) but russian approval would be good.
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Ab himmat say hai mera saara jahan. (Ali Noor--Noori)
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“Great pilots are made not born…A man may possess good eyesight, sensitive hands and perfect coordination, but the end product is only fashioned by steady coaching, much practice and experience.
– Air Vice Marshal J.E. Johnson, RAF
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<----PAF... Train to fight--Fight to kill.---->
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Pakistan ZINDABAD--Pakistan PAAINDABAD
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#112
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Posted 04 November 2005 - 10:21 AM
Free Alaska!
#113
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Posted 05 November 2005 - 10:00 PM
#114
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Posted 06 November 2005 - 02:52 AM
And the most important point is that these things have huge RCS like Su 30MKI, which is very dangerous in today's world when new fighters are comming with less and less RCS, moving toward stealth. And in this situation such a huge beast even if packed with latest stuff would find itself strectched against smaller but equally electronically advance fighter.
#115
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Posted 06 November 2005 - 10:07 AM
And the most important point is that these things have huge RCS like Su 30MKI, which is very dangerous in today's world when new fighters are comming with less and less RCS, moving toward stealth. And in this situation such a huge beast even if packed with latest stuff would find itself strectched against smaller but equally electronically advance fighter.
US Intel said Paistan has a better strike capability than India b/c the Mig-29s and Su-30MKIs have such a huge RCS!
Free Alaska!
#116
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Posted 06 November 2005 - 10:20 AM
They need to have a better logistical set up as well, since the C-130 & CN-235 infastructure is there, PAF should acquire more used C-130s and new CN-235s. Better land based air defence system too, long- & medium-range SAMs.
#117
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Posted 06 November 2005 - 06:33 PM
They need to have a better logistical set up as well, since the C-130 & CN-235 infastructure is there, PAF should acquire more used C-130s and new CN-235s. Better land based air defence system too, long- & medium-range SAMs.
Two reasons:
1-High cost of maintnence
2-High RCS
The J-10 is huge, that gives it a big RCS, so maybe the Gripen or Mirage 2000 will be best. Or Rafale, that's single-engined and it's a very advanced plane!
Free Alaska!
#118
Saqr
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Posted 06 November 2005 - 08:06 PM
Its twin engine, and very expensive.
#119
faizan khaliq
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Posted 04 December 2006 - 07:06 PM
who are possible enemies in addition to india,Do we need to change the doctrine when facing the other foe let us say NATO.The requirement of armaments would be entirely different in case of enemy other than India.In case of India would we be able to keep up the aggressive posture on Kashmir.Purely from military point of view we need to have
1.Strategic forces i.e strategic strike nukes plus long range bomber at least 40 subs
2.4Xarmy groups
a.Army group north
b.Army group center
c.army group south
d.Army group west
These groups should have there own reserves and to be equipped according to the tactical task.e.g army group north owing to our policy on Kashmir has to be an offensive formation.These groups have to have their own GHQ,Air force,tactical unconventional weapons etc necessary carryout the tactical plan.They should be free to evolve their own doctrine suitable to the ground conditions.
#120
faizan khaliq
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Posted 05 December 2006 - 04:03 AM
The strategic response must aim at complete annihilation of enemy through destruction of his resources which adds to his war potentials.These strikes have to comprehensive and decisive for these forces we need
1.at least 2 military purpose satellites
2.fourAWACs
3.we should focus on vertical take off capability air crafts owing to our smaller geographical size it will be hard to hide and protect military basis against missile attacks and keep functioning
4.ICBMs and sub launched missiles with a range of at least 5000 km
most of it sound hypothetical but our response has to be deterrence of total destruction of enemy/massive unacceptable losses
5,wolfpacks of subs to carry out naval blockade if required
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