206 replies to this topic

[Miroslav]

Double Post

[Miroslav]

Where did you get your endurance figures from as well, they are no way the same for both subs.  Scorpene 45 days....Agosta 90B MORE THAN 60 days.  Thats a big difference.

I have never argued on the endurance period.

The DCN website states diving depth for both Agosta and scopene subs to be greater than 300m.  Where did you get max 300m for agosta and 350m for scorpene from.

What SAAD has posted in the same thread.

Will the french give India the permission to add sub systems into the subs?, why would they want to loose out when their own equipment can be added on Subs they make.

Perhaps you will define TOT for me first.

Secondly we never ask permission.

Russian Jets/Heli's are upgraded by Israel/IAI.

Mirage-2000H has a Israeli LDP (Laser Designation POD)

We are gonna make the sub at our home under TOT so anything that fits under the desgin jurisdiction of Scorpene can be fitted.

Still let's wait n watch.

Miro

[Lightning F57]

What SAAD has posted in the same thread.

Saads Figures were correct however it was wrong to state >350 for the scorpenes.

Perhaps you will define TOT for me first.

Secondly we never ask permission.

Russian Jets/Heli's are upgraded by Israel/IAI.

Mirage-2000H has a Israeli LDP (Laser Designation POD)

We are gonna make the sub at our home under TOT so anything that fits under the desgin jurisdiction of Scorpene can be fitted.

Still let's wait n watch.

Miro

This is Transfer of French tech to make the subs, not Russian, Israeli or any other countries tech. Unless the french are happy with other countries systems being fitted into their subs (other countries get to have a look at latest french equipment) then I doubt india can go ahead and fit what systems it requires.

Also does that mean India is not happy with the current specs on the Scorpenes that it needs other systems to compliment it.

Last point TOT for every system is not possible either, Just in the case of the Pakistani Agosta 90Bs some of the equipment on the subs was still aquired from the french. Not 100% of the components can be made through transfering technology.

[Miroslav]

Also does that mean India is not happy with the current specs on the Scorpenes that it needs other systems to compliment it.

No it is not like that.

French Tech is good but every navy has it's own requirement and objectives.

Apart from this India is not looking for 100% equipment from France.

Government is definately looking forward to put some desi stuff on it instead of the French stuff and save $$$.

Israeli/Russian/German stuff is my assumption.

Besides we never know the listing of the 100% stuff.

also as I said Every next Submarine will have something different or upgraded to match the current technology and needs at that time.

Thanks,

Miro

[Lightning F57]

also as I said Every next Submarine will have something different or upgraded to match the current technology and needs at that time.

ofcourse that will be the case, The only reasons I can see in IN using other countries sub systems on the scorpenes is the cost factor and better technology. However the latter part I would put in question as the scorpene subs are quite advance...what would need changing the sonar suit, propulsion systems? hull design, weapons systems what?. The Scorpenes are quite impressive as they are on paper.

[Miroslav]

ofcourse that will be the case, The only reasons I can see in IN using other countries sub systems on the scorpenes is the cost factor and better technology.  However the latter part I would put in question as the scorpene subs are quite advance...what would need changing the sonar suit, propulsion systems? hull design, weapons systems what?.  The Scorpenes are quite impressive as they are on paper.

These are all my assumptions.

best way is to wait and watch.

Thanks,

Miro

[KLAFA]

ofcourse that will be the case, The only reasons I can see in IN using other countries sub systems on the scorpenes is the cost factor and better technology.  However the latter part I would put in question as the scorpene subs are quite advance...what would need changing the sonar suit, propulsion systems? hull design, weapons systems what?.  The Scorpenes are quite impressive as they are on paper.

"Sonar Suit, Hull design, propulsion system"NO
"Weapons" to some degree yes. IN would prefer to launch Klub-S from Scorpene unless it changes the design of the Sub to a large extent. But I think its not possible which lead to IN signing contract with MBDA for Excocet Blk 3 Missile.

However IN would be keen on replacing the MESMA AIP with German Fuel Cell converter. MESMA is noisier compared to Fuell Cell

[crazyinsane105]

No it is not like that.

French Tech is good but every navy has it's own requirement and objectives.

Apart from this India is not looking for 100% equipment from France.

Government is definately looking forward to put some desi stuff on it instead of the French stuff and save $$$.

Israeli/Russian/German stuff is my assumption.

Besides we never know the listing of the 100% stuff.

also as I said Every next Submarine will have something different or upgraded to match the current technology and needs at that time.

Thanks,

Miro

Question is, will the French be willing to let the IN do that? Considering the fact that the French are all about money, yeah, it will be pretty difficult for them to do so.

[chandrahass]

JF-17 is made in Pakistan and By Pakistan??????? Sorry never heared that.

Just in that case HAL have made fighters like MiG-21/27, Jaguar and Su-30 MKI under TOT. Gnat is from the history and HF-24 was our first indegeneous Fighter.

In transport HAL have made HS-748, Do-228 under TOT.

K-8???

Indian Trainers.

HPT-32 (Piston)
HJT-16 (Intermediate)
HJT-36 (Intermediate)
CAT (AJT Under Deveopment)

ALH (14 variants) is the first Indian helicopter

Indian Helicopters made under TOT

Chetak (Chetan is the advanced version)
Cheetah (Lancer is the advaced version)
LAH/LCH (Under Development)

Indian Navy Shipbuilding.

6 Nilgiri Class Frigates (Delivered between 1972 to 1981)
8 Veer (Tarantul 1) Class guided missile Corvettes (delivered between 1991 to 2002)
4 Type 25 Khukhri Class Guided missile corvettes (Delivered between 1989 to 1991)
4 Type 25 A Kora class Guided missile corvettes (Delivered between 1998 to 2004)
3 Type 16A Brahmaputra Class Guided Missile Frigates (Delivered Between 2000 to 2005)

3 Type 16 Godavri Class Guided Missile Frigates (Delivered Between 1983 to 1988)

3 Type 15 Delhi Class (Mother of all) Guided Missile Destroyers ( Delivered Between 1997 to 2001)

Future Commissions

6 Scorpenes Subs to be made under TOT
3 Project 17 Stealth Guided Missile Frigates are being built and expected delivery is between 2006 and 2007
1 Type 15A Banglore Class Stealth Guided Missile Frigate is being built and expected delivery by 2007.
1 ATV (Nuke Powered Sub under construction)
1 ADS (Aircraft Carrier Under Construction)
Apart from this many Large Patrol vessels and tankers have been made by the IN. Stay in touch and me or the other fellas will keep informing you.
Nothing related to the topic.

Miro

Perhaps the NAVAL VERSION OF LCA should be there too !!!

[Brainy]

I wrote this in the other Agosta 90B comparison thread too.

Just to confirm, Pakistan's Agosta 90B's and all Agosta 90B's for that matter can dive to a maximum depth of 350m.

"The Agosta submarines designed by DCN of France, are currently in service with the French, Spanish and Pakistan navies. The Agosta 90B is an improved version featuring higher performance and a new combat system. The new submarine features a higher level of automation, which has resulted in the ship's crew being reduced from 54 to 36. Other improvements include a new battery for increased range, a deeper diving capability of 350m resulting from the use of new materials including HLES 80 steel, and a reduced acoustic signature through the installation of new suspension and isolation systems."

LINK

[Miroslav]

Question is, will the French be willing to let the IN do that? Considering the fact that the French are all about money, yeah, it will be pretty difficult for them to do so.

Wait n Watch

[KLAFA]

Just to confirm, Pakistan's Agosta 90B's and all Agosta 90B's for that matter can dive to a maximum depth of 350m.

a deeper diving capability of 350m resulting from the use of new materials including HLES 80 steel, and a reduced acoustic signature through the installation of new suspension and isolation systems."

LINK

Maximum diving depth is different from operational depth.
Make a note of the same on the DCN website. It states >300m
Hull can not sustain a prolonged pressure at maximum depth.

[Brainy]

Maximum diving depth is different from operational depth.
Make a note of the same on the DCN website. It states >300m
Hull can not sustain a prolonged pressure at maximum depth.

I know they're different, thats why i said maximum diving depth and not operational. I'm assuming that "deeper diving capability of 350m" is referring to the maximum diving depth. However I'm not sure, the standard Agosta was 300m and the 90B is 350, I'm not sure whether thats maximum or operational, If it is the maximum, then the operational we probably won't ever know. I hope that fancy new steel means its pretty close to 350m. (Although i haven't the faintest as to what being able to dive deeper means)

Can you give some more information on UNsustainable prolonged pressure at maximum depth when it comes to submarines?

[Miroslav]

Can you give some more information on UNsustainable prolonged pressure at maximum depth when it comes to submarines?

Watch K-19 The Widowmaker.

All the depth doubts will get cleared practically.

Thanks,

Miro

[crazyinsane105]

Watch K-19 The Widowmaker.

All the depth doubts will get cleared practically.

Thanks,

Miro

Very good movie.

[ajeet]

Walker's World: Crafting a new Pacific strategy

By Martin Walker
UPI Editor
Published October 31, 2005

Japan's willingness to intensify its alliance with the United States, is less the threat of terrorism and even the threat of North Korea's nuclear ambitions, and rather more the growing economic power and military potential of new emergent powers like China and India.

Terrorism, after all, is hardly the threat that inspired the Navy to open last year a operational command in San Diego, the Fleet Anti-Submarine Warfare Command, charged with reviving the atrophied Cold War skills that had been honed against Soviet submarines. And while part of the threat is still Russian-built submarines, it is increasingly because they have been sold to China.

The threat is complicated, however, by India, the only other power operating an aircraft carrier in the Asia-Pacific theater, and currently buying the very advanced French-built Scorpene submarines that incorporate stealth technology. And while the U.S. strategic partnership with India is strengthening fast, just keeping track of the new Indian subs may furnish the graduates of the new San Diego anti-submarine warfare school with their toughest challenge.

But then the graduates of the new San Diego school are going to include Japanese naval personnel as well as Americans, under the new defense agreement. And depending on the progress of diplomacy, Indian naval officers may also be heading to the San Diego school, all as part of a transformation of Asia-Pacific geo-politics that is more a result of China's surging growth than of the war on terror.

]source

[jani]

No Wonder What Agosta Has Edge Over Scorpene Thats Why frend Dont Want Any Scorpenes Because They Know Better Quality Of Thier Own Home Made Subs Thats Why they Dont Need Scorpene This Is The Fact

[Miroslav]

No Wonder What Agosta Has Edge Over Scorpene Thats Why frend Dont Want Any Scorpenes Because They Know Better Quality Of Thier Own Home Made Subs Thats Why they Dont Need Scorpene This Is The Fact

Scorpene's are mainly meant for Export.

Besides French Navy dosent have any requirement for Sumarines as of now.

If Scorpene's were no better then Malaysians would have not go for them after already having Augosta-90B's. Instead they would have gone for more Augosta-90's.

Miro

[jani]

Mr Mirslov Malaysian Did Not Buy This Submarine By Giving Dollars They Buy It Exporting Of their Some Materials In Return They Gone For Some Scorpene It Dosent Mean If Malaysia Goes For Scorpene It Makes Scorpene Best Sub. And If Tomrrow Malaysia Goes For F 16 U Will Still Say This That F 16 Is Better Than Raptor No Way Mr Mirslove I Was Suspended By Forum Members Because Of U Im Now Back On Track And Wanna Make Some Serious Descussions Specially With U And Ur Fellow Country Man On My Country Forum Im Appologizing If I Said Some Thing Wrong

[Miroslav]

Mr Mirslov Malaysian Did Not Buy This Submarine By Giving Dollars They Buy It Exporting Of their Some Materials In Return

They could have done the same and could have buy Agosta's. My reply was against your comments on the French acquisitions of Scorpene.

They Gone For Some Scorpene It Dosent Mean If Malaysia Goes For Scorpene It  Makes Scorpene Best Sub.

Not at all.

And If Tomrrow Malaysia Goes For F 16 U Will Still Say This That F 16 Is Better Than Raptor No Way

LOL

Mr Mirslove I Was Suspended By Forum Members Because Of U Im Now Back On Track And Wanna Make Some Serious Descussions Specially With U And Ur Fellow Country Man On My Country Forum Im Appologizing If I Said Some Thing Wrong

Check this link son

Miro

[SATAN]

The scorpene deal was done by pee brained idiots like Advani and that Bhangi george fernandes right after they found out about the AgostaB90 deal. Because india had nothing to counter the AgostaB90 sub with if PN attacked the creaky soviet supplied black holes (kilos) and the older Uboats. The Agosta is no doubt a very Lethal and modern Platform.

So due to the usual hindian fits of jealousy they got france to sell them the Scorpene...! Better yet....lol...the indians, as usual took 5 years to make up their minds about the purchase infuriating the French in the process.

Also it brings into the discussion the hindu factor of trying to get France to stop all sub cooperation with Pakistan. When that did not succed, we saw the RAW sponsored terrorist bombing in Karachi that killed the french engineers working on the AgostaB project.

So , considering the first Scorpene will be with hindoostan in 2012 , the AgostaB90 subs will be ready for an upgrade
In conclusion ,i'd say the AgostaB90 and the Scorpene are pretty equal, with the Agosta having a greater diving depth, better endurance and a much longer range.
The Scorpene can carry 2 more torpedos than the agosta, thats about it.

[ajeet]

In conclusion ,i'd say the AgostaB90 and the Scorpene are pretty equal, with the Agosta having a greater diving depth, better endurance and a much longer range.
The Scorpene can carry 2 more torpedos than the agosta, thats about it.

Scorpenes r for defensive purposes..so the range and endurance doesnt matter...
but Agostas need to come into the open sea for attack indian assets...so range and endurance matters...

Akulas and ATV r coming for offensives

[ajeet]

sorry double post

[jani]

That Is The Fact That Agosta Is Far more Or May be equal Capable As Sxorpene I Agree With Sattan And As U Said france Dont Need Any Subs Is The French Admiral Siad U Mr Mirslov Or U Just Saw A Dream. Scorpene Is Good But At The Same Time Agosta Can Take Them Out

[whizkid]

That Is The Fact That Agosta Is Far more Or May be equal Capable As Sxorpene  I Agree With Sattan And As U Said france Dont Need Any Subs Is The French Admiral Siad U Mr Mirslov Or U Just Saw A Dream. Scorpene Is Good But At The Same Time Agosta Can Take Them Out

Great good luck in taking down the scorpenes......don't forget we also have

1)10 Kilo class submarines sum freshly back from russia after a massive upgradation program
2)4 HDW 209 class submarines
3)2 foxtrot class

projected
1)ATV
2)Akulas(will be inducted shortly
3)project 75

This was just the submarine arm.....we have tremendous ASW assets in terms of surface fleet and air arm..
sum examples
1)atleast 7 ka-25 were inducted
2)13+ deadly ka-28 helix -A
3)undisclosed number of sea king Mk.42C
don't bother to find out about the surface fleet even

thanx

[Miroslav]

Great good luck in taking down the scorpenes......don't forget we also have

1)10 Kilo class submarines sum freshly back from russia after a massive upgradation program
2)4 HDW 209 class submarines
3)2 foxtrot class

projected
1)ATV
2)Akulas(will be inducted shortly
3)project 75

This was just the submarine arm.....we have tremendous ASW assets in terms of surface fleet and air arm..
sum examples
1)atleast 7 ka-25 were inducted
2)13+ deadly ka-28 helix -A
3)undisclosed number of sea king Mk.42C
don't bother to find out  about the surface fleet even

thanx

Don't count the Foxtrots; there combat capability is doubtful.

KA-25's are (or in the process) of decommissioned.

Ka-28 are 13 and KA-31 are 9

Sea Kings are 40+ and you forgot to mention Chetak with Torpedoes and ALH.

Besides 3 Il-38 and 8 Tu-142 are also gonna play the ASW games.

Thanks,

Miro

[Ajgir]

ThE_UnReAcHaBLe,

Your Posts Jul 11 2005, 02:42 PM and Jul 12 2005, 09:57 AM state :

Scorpene has a maximum range of 6400 nautical miles at 8 knots while Agosta can go almost twice that distance at higher speed : 11000 nautical miles at 11 knots. Scorpene has a rated endurance of 50 days while Agosta has the endurance of 68 days, a clear advantage when you are operating away from your home base.

How is the Agostas’ maximum range being nearly twice and the endurance of 68 Days compared to Scorpenes’ 50 Days make any difference.

India and Pakistan are a Hop, Step and Jump from each other.

As such neither Agosta’ Double the Range or 36% more endurance going to be of any help.

To have an endurance of 68 Days is fine if you are going to fight a war for such a prolonged period.

All previous India-Pakistan Wars have not lasted more than about 15 Days or so.

I do not anticipate the next India-Pakistan War to last 50 days and so 68 days is even more unthinkable.

Peace

[jani]

Mr Ajgir Agosta's Are Equal Rightnow To Ur Old Kilos And New Scorpenes And PN Will Be Upgrading It In 2012 So What U Think About Agosta And Not To Forgot Our Last Agosta Has New Tech Of 2005 So It Can Eat Easily Any Sub From India Agosta Has Sure Kill Right Now Any Submarine In IN Arm And When U Get Ur Scorpene We Gonna Get U Boat's Which Are Lethal Submarine These Days And I Dont Think So Russia Has Any Good Tech For Atleast For 30 Years To Counter U Boat And If U Waana Hear Which Country Makes Worst Subs In World Than My Answer Is Russia Because Most Of Sub Accidents Has Been Reported On Russian Sub Last Few Months Do U Hear That UK Escorted Rusian The Crew O Russian Sub Which Was Cannaot Submerge After HAving Some Probleums Under Water And Plz Give My Message To Ur Submarine Crew Ready To Die In Kilos Without Getting Hit By Agosta These Kilos Gonna Destroy Them By Them Selves Man U Boats Are Coming

[chandrahass]

The scorpene deal was done by pee brained idiots like Advani and that Bhangi george fernandes  right after they found out about the AgostaB90  deal. Because india had nothing to counter the AgostaB90 sub with if PN attacked the creaky soviet supplied black holes (kilos) and the older Uboats. The Agosta is no doubt a very Lethal and modern Platform.

So due to the usual hindian fits of jealousy they got france to sell them the Scorpene...! Better yet....lol...the indians, as usual took 5 years to make up their minds  about the purchase infuriating the French in the process.

Also it brings into the discussion the hindu factor of trying to get France to stop all sub cooperation with Pakistan. When that did not succed, we saw the RAW sponsored terrorist bombing in Karachi that killed the french engineers working on the AgostaB project.

So , considering the first Scorpene will be with hindoostan in 2012 , the AgostaB90 subs will be ready for an upgrade 
In conclusion ,i'd say the AgostaB90 and the Scorpene are pretty equal, with the Agosta having a greater diving depth, better endurance and a much longer range.
The Scorpene can carry 2 more torpedos than the agosta, thats about it.

Well buddy !! take this way whenever theses machines come under test ;the natural ally waht In will be having would be it's coastal line .Do pN have this liberty??

No , the brains in Pn warrrooms taking there leaves from 1971 naval war against us had well analysed that naval wing of PN was the most who caused any trouble to the enmey

Agosta 90/Scoprenes moreover are just little different . thing matter is how they are used and under what conds?

with war going under way the what the two navies wil try will be to cause max damage as swiftly as possilbe . then i don 't see the endurance coming in picture.
Honestly IN can take out Pn in a matter of days (i am not saying that PN can't affect any damages ).with the size and the nos and the the surface/air support that IN has got and Pn hasd not got

[jani]

Yes My Dear Friend U Are Absolutely Right That IN will take out PN in days time.


But it will not be as easy as u said but it is guranted PN is weaker than IN This is the fact.

if im wrong plz correct me i heared that chinese navy will say in gwadar to defend gwadar and china will send some ships to gwadar.

because PN cant buy 10 to 20 ships in a year so they wat china stay there for 10 to 15 years untill Pn accuire more ships so In should watch out for chinese stuff in war too may be im wrong but im saying what i heared it.

[chandrahass]

Yes My Dear Friend U Are Absolutely Right That IN will take out PN in days time.
But it will not be as easy as u said but it is guranted PN is weaker than IN This is the fact.

if im wrong plz correct me i heared that chinese navy will say in gwadar to defend gwadar and china will send some ships to gwadar.

because PN cant buy 10 to 20 ships in a year so they wat china stay there for 10 to 15 years untill Pn accuire more ships so In should watch out for chinese stuff in war too may be im wrong but im saying what i heared it.

sorry buddy !!!

this piece of news only fron you , But if it is true i will like to ask that whether really the presence of PLAN in Pakistani port will really make them to indulge themselves in war !!

[SATAN]

Agostas have a slight edge over the Scorpene subs. But....Pakistani AgostaB90s arent armed with the SM-39 or the Black Shark Torpedo as of yet. The Scorpene deal includes these weapons . If Pakistan can also get the BlackShark Torpedos and the newer EADS SM-39 missile, then i'd say the AgostaB90 rules all the way.

[zeron]

We cannot compare Scorpenes and Agostas.Scorpenes incorporate Stealth Tech also.Just taking ur submarine deep does not give u stealth.There are some measures towards signature reduction features coupled with an integrated system.

Here's another link for people here:

Walker's World: Crafting a new Pacific strategy
By Martin Walker
UPI Editor
Published October 31, 2005


PEARL HARBOR, Hawaii -- The agreement to re-locate 7,000 U.S. Marines from the Japanese island of Okinawa to the U.S. territory of Guam in the South Pacific is just one component of a far more ambitious transformation of U.S. military strategy in the Asia-Pacific theater. This includes a much closer coordination between U.S. and Japanese forces, while making them more mobile and flexible and less static.

Japan, which is planning to re-write its post-1945 constitution to modify its celebrated "pacifist" clauses, has agreed to expand its own defense forces and to train and operate them alongside U.S. troops. For the first time, Japan has agreed that a nuclear-powered U.S. aircraft carrier can be based in Japan and to deploy powerful X-band radar systems, used to track long-range ballistic missiles.


The expansion of the U.S. base at Guam with new submarine and stealth bomber deployments alongside the 7,000 Marines fits into a broader U.S. strategy of "forward deterrence," which is revolutionizing traditional naval doctrine and practice. Ships are now kept at sea for much longer periods simply by rotating crews. The destroyer USS Fletcher has been kept at sea for 24 continuous months by the use of replacement crews from the USS Kinkaid and then the USS Oldendorf and then the USS Elliot -- saving the usual monthlong transit time from California bases.

The old Marine Expeditionary Units, which lacked defensive and offensive firepower, are being transformed into Expeditionary Strike Groups that include attack submarines and guided missile cruisers and destroyers to become far more powerful and self-reliant forces for amphibious attack.

The Navy has already deployed two of these new task forces in the Pacific, led by the amphibious landing ships Peleliu and Belleau Wood and another in the Mediterranean led by the amphibious landing ship Wasp. The Belleau Wood task force was commander by a Marine general, as part of the broader effort to overcome the traditional demarcation lines between the different services and to inculcate the practice of working jointly.

The commander of the U.S. Pacific fleet, for example, has been assigned the additional duties as commander, Joint Task Force 519. The Navy calls this "a fully deployable joint task force capable of planning and executing any contingency, whether it's evacuating civilians from danger zones or fighting a major conflict for the U.S. Pacific Command." The deputy commander of the Joint Task Force is an Air Force three-star general (who is also the vice commander of U.S. Pacific Air Forces) and the chief of staff is an Army two-star general, who is also the deputy commander of U.S. Army Pacific.

After the first Expeditionary Strike Group deployment, Col. Michael Regner, commander of the 13th Marine Expeditionary Unit, told reporters that the strike group had forged "the closest working relationship between the two sea services" that he had seen in 27 years of service.

All of this transformation could yet go much further. Vice Adm. Arthur Cebrowski, now retired but widely seen as the father of force transformation in the U.S. Navy, and the man who coined the penetrating term "global systems administrator" to define the U.S role in the world, notes that the performance of the Navy's amphibious ships has traditionally been measured by the number of sailors it takes to support a Marine who is going ashore.

"The most efficient U.S. Navy ship will be the LPD-17 at 1.77 Marines per sailor," Cebrwoski famously told a Center for Naval Analyses seminar. "On the other hand, if you look at what the Australians did in East Timor, using commercial high-speed catamarans, they are between 25 and 50 Marines per sailor. Using a ship that is one-tenth the cost and three times the speed. And the commercial ship has less than half the draft so consequently it can go into five times as many ports to include many unprepared."

On the record, the Navy is both coy and bland in talking about the new threats and missions these changes are meant to address.

"The Asia-Pacific region is more important today than it has ever been for the United States", says the official mission statement for the U.S. Pacific fleet. "Since Sept. 11, 2001 one of the Fleet's primary operational missions has been fighting and supporting the Global War on Terrorism. At the same time, the mission of dissuading and deterring potential regional threats from traditional and trans-national threats alike has continued to grow. Increased Navy visibility in the Western Pacific as a means to accomplish these missions has become paramount."

But it is no secret that the new challenge in the region, and the new spur to Japan's willingness to intensify its alliance with the United States, is less the threat of terrorism and even the threat of North Korea's nuclear ambitions, and rather more the growing economic power and military potential of new emergent powers like China and India.

Terrorism, after all, is hardly the threat that inspired the Navy to open last year a operational command in San Diego, the Fleet Anti-Submarine Warfare Command, charged with reviving the atrophied Cold War skills that had been honed against Soviet submarines. And while part of the threat is still Russian-built submarines, it is increasingly because they have been sold to China.

The threat is complicated, however, by India, the only other power operating an aircraft carrier in the Asia-Pacific theater, and currently buying the very advanced French-built Scorpene submarines that incorporate stealth technology. And while the U.S. strategic partnership with India is strengthening fast, just keeping track of the new Indian subs may furnish the graduates of the new San Diego anti-submarine warfare school with their toughest challenge.

But then the graduates of the new San Diego school are going to include Japanese naval personnel as well as Americans, under the new defense agreement. And depending on the progress of diplomacy, Indian naval officers may also be heading to the San Diego school, all as part of a transformation of Asia-Pacific geo-politics that is more a result of China's surging growth than of the war on terror.

Link

[chandrahass]

Agostas have a slight edge over the Scorpene subs. But....Pakistani AgostaB90s arent armed with the SM-39 or the Black Shark Torpedo as of yet. The Scorpene deal includes these weapons .  If Pakistan can also get the BlackShark Torpedos and the newer EADS SM-39 missile, then i'd say the AgostaB90 rules all the way.

sir ! please read

when we really come to comparisons b/w the two the main things that come in pic. are the hull design .this is what i have to say about two

The design of the scorpene sub (the hull design is known as the albacore design)derives a lot of technology from the latest french nuclear submarine project particularly in terms of the sensors and the quieting technology,the scorpenes are considered to be amongst the quietest subs in the world ,they have the fully integrated subtics combat system,and it is believed that the scorpenes can be equipped with a miniature nuclear reactor thus making it a mini nuke sub(off course it will require a lot of modifications),the submarine also has rescue facilities for the crew(hatches to which dsrv's can attach),thus making it possible for the crew to be saved in the event the submarine is sunk(preventing the loss of life as in the case of kursk),india is plannig to acquire the mystic dsrv's from usa for this purpose.in other aspects it is comparable to the agosta 90b,both the submarines are modular and can be equipped with the air independent propulsion system.the scorpene requires lesser crew due to a higher degree of automation and carries more weapons than the agosta90b(18 vs 16).the scorpene can also be modified to carry and fire surface to air missiles,i dont know if this would be possible with the agosta 90b,basically the agosta 90b is the upgraded version of agosta70 which in itself is based on the daphne class,whereas the scorpene design is completely new.

In has also plans to look for the modifications for the design so as to fit the subs with PJ-10 vertical luanch platforms , but i guess it will not be in intial 3-4 subs as it will futher delay the procurement of the machines , that 's why there is order of excocet along withth e subs

[chandrahass]

Agostas have a slight edge over the Scorpene subs. But....Pakistani AgostaB90s arent armed with the SM-39 or the Black Shark Torpedo as of yet. The Scorpene deal includes these weapons .  If Pakistan can also get the BlackShark Torpedos and the newer EADS SM-39 missile, then i'd say the AgostaB90 rules all the way.

sir ! please read

when we really come to comparisons b/w the two the main things that come in pic. are the hull design .this is what i have to say about two

The design of the scorpene sub (the hull design is known as the albacore design)derives a lot of technology from the latest french nuclear submarine project particularly in terms of the sensors and the quieting technology,the scorpenes are considered to be amongst the quietest subs in the world ,they have the fully integrated subtics combat system,and it is believed that the scorpenes can be equipped with a miniature nuclear reactor thus making it a mini nuke sub(off course it will require a lot of modifications),the submarine also has rescue facilities for the crew(hatches to which dsrv's can attach),thus making it possible for the crew to be saved in the event the submarine is sunk(preventing the loss of life as in the case of kursk),india is plannig to acquire the mystic dsrv's from usa for this purpose.in other aspects it is comparable to the agosta 90b,both the submarines are modular and can be equipped with the air independent propulsion system.the scorpene requires lesser crew due to a higher degree of automation and carries more weapons than the agosta90b(18 vs 16).the scorpene can also be modified to carry and fire surface to air missiles,i dont know if this would be possible with the agosta 90b,basically the agosta 90b is the upgraded version of agosta70 which in itself is based on the daphne class,whereas the scorpene design is completely new.

In has also plans to look for the modifications for the design so as to fit the subs with PJ-10 vertical luanch platforms , but i guess it will not be in intial 3-4 subs as it will futher delay the procurement of the machines , that 's why there is order of excocet along withth e subs

[jani]

Yes India may accuire some naal stuff from USA.

but also my friend remember PN's Next generation Sub is going to come from Germany I mean U boats.

there is no match for these subs right now technology wise i think even american subs like sea wolf cannot be compare with it.


and as we all know german's and french people are makin best sub in the world

[chandrahass]

Yes India may accuire some naal stuff from USA.

but also my friend remember PN's Next generation Sub is going to come from Germany I mean U boats.

there is no match for these subs right now technology wise i think even american subs like sea wolf cannot be compare with it.
and as we all know german's and french people are makin best sub in the world

i guess PN yet to have make decison on it . type 214 is good no doubt ; but the only thing i see impressive is fuel cell as compared to scorpene/agosta 90 and IN has full plans to induct the same technology in their subs too .

[jani]

my dear friend PN buying a sub not a car that we make decission in cople of months first of all PN like to send thier delgation to check the submarine's capabillites which will take a year and prize negtaation it is clear 3 years or so it will take for PN to order them as IN took more than 4 years for scorpene's.


but PN will Buy them this is guranteed and this progress can be finish over night my dear frinend

i know u know u boat will gonna hit hard IN subs in future If pn git this sub no way In gonna get it.

and their is no other sub untill 20 years are going t come to match U214 so plz agree with us that PN will be more powerfull In subs than india i know u gonna say In has more subs.

i has answer for this too quality make difference my friend and all russian sub lakes quality russian made subs are pieeof a trash. they cant even get a kill to any submarine they lack in technology.

and if u send a in a race 20 BMW against Ferrai no way these BMW gonnna win race so plz take my point of quality

as we all agree IN is more powerfull Than PN in surface fleet why nto u agree with reallity friend still PN has Better SUbmarines Than IN agosta's are more than a match to kilos and other old stufff and scorpene is as same as agosta.

anf u boat is best sub now

[goodperson]

my dear friend PN buying a sub not a car that we make decission in cople of months first of all PN like to send thier delgation to check the submarine's capabillites which will take a year and prize negtaation it is clear 3 years or so it will take for PN to order them as IN took more than 4 years for scorpene's.
but PN will Buy them this is guranteed and this progress can be finish over night my dear frinend

i know u know u boat will gonna hit hard IN subs in future If pn git this sub no way In gonna get it.

and their is no other sub untill 20 years are going t come to match U214 so plz agree with us that PN will be more powerfull In subs than india i know u gonna say In has more subs.

i has answer for this too quality make difference my friend and all russian sub lakes quality russian made subs are pieeof a trash. they cant even get a kill to any submarine they lack in technology.

and if u send a in a race 20 BMW against Ferrai no way these BMW gonnna win race so plz take my point of quality

as we all agree IN is more powerfull Than PN in surface fleet why nto u agree with reallity friend still PN has Better SUbmarines Than IN agosta's are more than a match to kilos and other old stufff and scorpene is as same as agosta.

anf u boat is best sub now

Dear Jani, before you remind me I am a pathetic Indian bhangee. I have tiny brain and I write crap English.

ok now to the topic

1) India already has 4 HDW 209 submarines from Germany.
2) 10 recently upgraded Type 877EKM Kilo class submarines.
3) 6 Scorpene submarine deal.
4) KRIVAK III CLASS Guided Missile Stealth Frigates equiped with deadly long range Klub missiles, Will be equiped with supersonic cruise missile brahmos too.
5) Work on The Project 28 (P28) ASW corvette has already started.

I think above should be enough to take care of Pakistani Agosta's.

[jani]

my dear friend we are not talkin here about ur frigates we are talking about subs.


and kilos are old how much u are gonna upgrade them they are not going to match agosta power. and HDW are also old they even less firepower than kilos no match but yes scorpene's can match agosta but it will not going to be for more days because PN wanna buy U21 n future.

and yes u indians are pathatic never ever u people say yes pn is better in sub field.

i never heared it from any indian saying that Pn is better than IN in any field

as w pakistanis we always been with facts yes it is a fact that IN is better than PN in Surface fleet.

but this also not going to be for more days because our new perry class frigates gonna come, with f22, spurence class destroyer's and other in future so plz

in war u dont count number it is better to count quality of a opponent.