115 replies to this topic

[rungroot]

Awarded a whopping, punishing, gutt wrenching, exemplerary 30 SECONDS SENTANCE!!!


Yaaaaaay angrayz ki judiciary!!!!!!!

Enjoying democracy yet???

[neo_revo]

Very disappointing.

Even if he is disqualified, another puppet will take his place from among the jiyalas. No real change. The musical chairs of power is so f**ing sickening.

[rungroot]

No man why?  This IS the beauty of democracy, I am loving it!!!  Only under a democracy can a man as powerful as a "PRIME MINISTER" be sentenced to a WHOPPING T H I R T Y SECONDS (yes, 30 SECONDS, not 30 minutes, 30 hour, 30 days, 30 weeks or 30 months, but 30 SECONDS)!!!!!!!

Aaaaaaaah, democracy, how we love thee, let me count the ways, THIRTY OF 'EM!!!

[Aslam]

Pakistan DEMOCRACY IS THE BEST REVENGE FOR ALL THE LOOTERS.

[Pikes]

Jiyee bhuttooooooooooooooooooooooooo, democracy is best revenge my fellow patriots. Long live bhuttooooo .....................*sarcasm*

He is convicted under this Article of constitution of banana republic of Pakistan

[63. Disqualifications for membership of Majlis-e-Shoora (Parliament):
he has been convicted by a court of competent jurisdiction for propagating any opinion, or acting in any manner, prejudicial to the ideology of Pakistan, or the sovereignty, integrity or security of Pakistan, or morality, or the maintenance of public order, or the integrity or independence of the judiciary of Pakistan, or which defames or brings into ridicule the judiciary or the Armed Forces of Pakistan, unless a period of five years has elapsed since his release; or

http://www.Pakistani.../part3.ch2.html

Does this mean he is not prime minister now?

[aamirzs]

Imran demands PM Gilani’s resignation


LAHORE: Pakistan Tehreek-e-Insaf (PTI) leader Imran Khan said on Thursday that Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani should immediately resign from his position after being convicted by the Supreme Court (SC), Geo News reported.

Imran wrote on the microblogging website Twitter, “After SC judgement PM has lost whatever shred of legal & moral authority he had. He must resign immed & ECP must notify his 5 year disqual.”

Imran wrote that PTI will always stand by the law and SC. He said that his party will not accept any political defiance and ridicule of SC’s decisions.

The PTI leader also said the rule of law and independence of judiciary must be upheld.

The SC has ruled that Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani is guilty of contempt for refusing to obey an order to write to the authorities in Switzerland to ask them to re-open corruption cases against President Asif Ali Zardari.

PM Gilani was punished till the rising of the court for violating Article 63 (1)(g) of the Constitution.

[Taha]

Look at the bigger game establishment is playing guyz.

[Tipu-786]

Look at the joy on his fkn face ........   there is no  no shame of any kind and we tend to choose leaders like that ......

remember we are the one voted and choose them...  shame on us

[ajaj]

I think you guys are missing the point and reacting purely emotionally.

The Supreme Court did the right thing, it didnt sentence him a jail term, which denies him the opportunity to get any political mileage and in addition they convicted him by article 63 - which basically disqualifies him from holding a seat and standing for elections for the next 5 years. Its really a ingenious decision by Supreme Court. Now, the ball is in the oppositions court, of how they manage to play on this incredible dent in the governments position and power. So hold your horses!!

[1Pakistani]

ajaj, on 26 April 2012 - 04:44 AM, said:

I think you guys are missing the point and reacting purely emotionally.

The Supreme Court did the right thing, it didnt sentence him a jail term, which denies him the opportunity to get any political mileage and in addition they convicted him by article 63 - which basically disqualifies him from holding a seat and standing for elections for the next 5 years. Its really a ingenious decision by Supreme Court. Now, the ball is in the oppositions court, of how they manage to play on this incredible dent in the governments position and power. So hold your horses!!

I agree with you on this.
<p>I think the objective should never have been eventual sentencing but rather the conviction which in itself is great achievement in history 

[rungroot]

^^^

I thought the whole purpose a free judiciary was to punish the guilty with examplirary punishment regardless of what come may!!!

[Felicius]

The President can give a pardon on Eid, August 14, etc.

[Ababeel]

SC in its verdict has made refrence to disqualification clause of constitution, article 63(1g). So Speaker of the NA will have 30 days from today to go ahead with disqualifcation process request to chief election comission which will have 90 days to decide (i doubt CEC will take that long to decide). In the meanwhile PPP will apeal this verdict, which really will not do anything for them. Zardari giving Pardon is also tricky for PPP because PPP doesnt have a clear majority as its a coalition government already there are calls from oppostion for Gillani to resign, if he stays on PPP can find it hard to hold on to its coalition partners to avert a vote of no confidence. I see two scenarios, either Zardari throws some more fresh meat towards PMLN and coalition partners and do another "mufahamat" & elect a new prime minister, or there is very good chance of a caretaker government.

[Felicius]

The president can still give the pardon, hence Gilani can then stand in the next elections. 90 days right - August 14 or August 19 (Eid), take your pick
Call it NRO, call it plea bargain, give it whatever acronym that rhymes with PPPP.

[Tipu-786]

LMAO !!!!  WHAT A JOKE  .....    Mofffffffffffffffffff'''s

[Ababeel]

PPP would want a new guy as a prime minister so as to stall the court in "not writing the letter" drama, if Gillani comes back with a pardon he will either have to write the letter or face contempt not much room there for stalling. Also keep in mind more Zardari clings to Gilani more fresh meat he will have to throw at his coalition partners to keep them on board and avoid no confidence vote. Best option for Zardari is to throw more meat to his coalition partners, have Gillani resign (or let disqualification process pan out) so as to fulfill PMLN demand which in return will maintain friendly oppostion posture. PPP will then elect a new Prime Minister who will come in play a fresh game with SC on "not writing the letter".

[Felicius]

Pee Pee Pee

[Sanguine]

Shehz, on 26 April 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

The President can give a pardon on Eid, August 14, etc.

As per Aitazaz Ahsan, it is not possible owing to the constitutional estoppel (after 18th Amendement).
The President cant pardon PM unless and untill the PM tenders to him an advice and PM cant tender the advice because he cant be judge/ interested party in his own case, though it did not make any sense to me (because the constitution grants him this power).

Generally speaking, what you are saying is not possible because the President has got power to grant pardon in sentence (which is already over) but has no power to set aside the declaration of guilt or conviction.

[1Pakistani]

Shehz, on 26 April 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

The President can give a pardon on Eid, August 14, etc.

Pardon is from sentencing but that does not quash your conviction. What the pardon, in civilized world does is make you free of sentencing and death penalty but it does not mean you conviction will remain.

Take for example Indonesia where it is a requirement that the person admits his or her guilt before the pardon is given and than the president can given pardon from the sentencing that person has received.

So what ever Zardari does, he can not quash the conviction hence PM will still have the criminal record which should make him illegible to run from election.

[1Pakistani]

rungroot, on 26 April 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

^^^

I thought the whole purpose a free judiciary was to punish the guilty with examplirary punishment regardless of what come may!!!

He is found guilty and was punished. Now your question is the severity of punishment is not great only few minutes and that has many factors and there are many mitigating circumstance. We have to look at it while putting away our dislike for the PM and once we do that we will realise that every decision will make a percendent, if we dont expect PM to be dealt fairly due to our dislike for him than should we expect same for all citizen.

Now for the PM there are many factors which played a crucial role in him receiving less sentence. One of those was the fundamental question of immunity for the President. The SC had to decide on that immunity and it was great mitigating factor where there is no clear law and hence PM was arguing that point and than there is factors of PM receiving the advice from his legal team and what impact that had on his decision making including his argument for immunity.

However, there is crucial fact where court made it clear to him that he has to do what they require and he refused point blank which in my view did require sentence more than what he received. But if they appeal he might be up for more sentence as CJ will be involved.

[Jazba-e-Kashmir]

Hasb-e-Haal on the issue:

[Felicius]

1Pakistani, on 27 April 2012 - 12:10 AM, said:

he can not quash the conviction hence PM will still have the criminal record which should make him illegible to run from election.

Start counting how many convictions have been quashed in the past 50 years, both yours and Fatima's fingers won't be sufficient (you'll need to borrow my hands as well)!
Then how many ineligible bearers have run for office in the last 50 years, and have won? Let me know, I'll lend you my toes too.

[Felicius]

^ Reality is always different than what is written on paper.

Let me give you an example of Kashmir, produce what documents you want from UN and other archives, reality is that to go to your own Kashmir, you will need to apply for a visa at the Indian Embassy (and prove that you will not stay behind in Kashmir longer than the Visa). I know, bari sulaghti hai, but that is the real world we live in.

Similarly, In Pakistan, law is almost always violated by the democrats, and the ones who takes an oath to uphold the law (the judiciary). On paper, the fingers are pointed mostly towards the Establishment (military), but in reality that is seldom the case, often the democrats and elected reps are the law breakers.

[Sanguine]

Shehz, on 27 April 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

Start counting how many convictions have been quashed in the past 50 years, both yours and Fatima's fingers won't be sufficient (you'll need to borrow my hands as well)!
Then how many ineligible bearers have run for office in the last 50 years, and have won? Let me know, I'll lend you my toes too.

Well, convictions were quashed by NRO and the ordinance itself was declared invalid by the SC. Care to tell us about those ineligible officer bearers

[rungroot]

@Fatima47 and everyone else,

When the HELL are you all going to wake up and realize that democrazy just does NOT work, it is built INTO this system that only the corrupt and the filthy can come into power, over and over again!!!

[Felicius]

Fatima47, on 27 April 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

Well, convictions were quashed by NRO and the ordinance itself was declared invalid by the SC. Care to tell us about those ineligible officer bearers

Get over the NRO please, aik hi rutt ley kar baeth gayae ho for the last 3 years now!

When NS came to power in 90's, took 2/3rd majority, an entire PML lot of them had convictions on them (by the PPP then).
Even AZ had convictions (won from Liyari), so did Murtaza Bhutto, all were elected. Makhdoom Amin Faheem, his brother Rafiq, all had previous convictions and have spent a great deal of time in jail? Khar? Jatoi? Did they not win the elections? Did CEC stop them from standing?

You honestly don't recall or were just playing naive?

Edited by Shehz, 27 April 2012 - 11:11 AM.

[Felicius]

rungroot, on 27 April 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

When the HELL are you all going to wake up and realize that democrazy just does NOT work, it is built INTO this system that only the corrupt and the filthy can come into power, over and over again!!!

[PS:Annonymous]

Shehz, on 27 April 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Get over the NRO please, aik hi rutt ley kar baeth gayae ho for the last 3 years now!

When NS came to power in 90's, took 2/3rd majority, an entire PML lot of them had convictions on them (by the PPP then).
Even AZ had convictions (won from Liyari), so did Murtaza Bhutto, all were elected. Makhdoom Amin Faheem, his brother Rafiq, all had previous convictions and have spent a great deal of time in jail? Khar? Jatoi? Did they not win the elections? Did CEC stop them from standing?

You honestly don't recall or were just playing naive?

I am afraid, you are mixing politics with the law. lets keep the two aside from each other. And if we were take the argument that you are making then it means we should accept the fact that Pakistani law is joke and there is no need for courts, rule of law and we must let the circus continue.

Soon you all have to decide that you want to continue the circus and then justify it by giving references from the past or you want to welcome the future, strengthen the institutions and bring about the rule of law?

Needless to say that if Zardari&co are innocent why not right a letter? why create all this drama? why? forget the technicalities, if you are clean then you dont have anything to worry about!

[Felicius]

^ What was NRO then? That too was politics my friend.

PS:Annonymous, on 27 April 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

I am afraid, you are mixing politics with the law. lets keep the two aside from each other.

Needless to say that if Zardari&co are innocent why not right a letter? why create all this drama? why? forget the technicalities, if you are clean then you dont have anything to worry about!

See what you just did? You can't keep them aside, you just amalgamated the two yourself
Forget the letter, Gilani will stand for elections next year and rule of law will be broken. Politics is our law.

Quote

Soon you all have to decide that you want to continue the circus and then justify it by giving references from the past or you want to welcome the future, strengthen the institutions and bring about the rule of law?

Not a justification, but a prediction of what will happen. The conviction will not make any difference, and Gilani will be eligible to stand for elections again.

And while we are talking about a joke, well you know how it's going to end. It's the judiciary who abets them in breaking the law, what has politics got to do here?
30 seconds punishment is not a joke to you? Has he been asked to resign and step down by the judiciary? What have they enforced, be honest to yourself.

CEC will not stop him from standing for office again, and the joke will be on us when the public re-elects him. This is reality, not politics.

Edited by Shehz, 27 April 2012 - 12:27 PM.

[PS:Annonymous]

Shehz, on 27 April 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

^ What was NRO then? That too was politics my friend.



See what you just did? You can't keep them aside, you just amalgamated the two yourself
Forget the letter, Gilani will stand for elections next year and rule of law will be broken. Politics is our law.



Not a justification, but a prediction of what will happen. The conviction will not make any difference, and Gilani will be eligible to stand for elections again.

And while we are talking about a joke, well you know how it's going to end. It's the judiciary who abets them in breaking the law, what has politics got to do here?
30 seconds punishment is not a joke to you? Has he been asked to resign and step down by the judiciary? What have they enforced, be honest to yourself.

CEC will not stop him from standing for office again, and the joke will be on us when the public re-elects him. This is reality, not politics.

If you starts to learn and understand the philosophy of law then only and only you would understand the decision of court and how the law works. But let me give you a hint, Law does not mean revenge, vengeance, cruelty etc. The purpose of rule of law is to bring harmony in society. This is why there are flexibilities, mitigating circumstances etc are considered while making a decision. What court did is exactly according to the law, it may not be according to the wishes of people and hyped emotions, but according to the law. This is how court should make decision, not according to the wishes of people.

Court has given a good decision and a fair ruling. A person with an ounce of morals and values would resign after this decision. Court has done its work, now the ball is in people's court to take down the convict out of their public institution. This is an opportunity to strengthen the institution and to show that no one is above the law.

Please think rational instead of emotions and instead of justifying the wrong by referencing the wrong from past.

[SUPARCO]

Salaam,

Democratic leaders are elected by the people, dictators are not.  If you have something against the elected government, vote against them the next time... stop banging your heads on the walls like some sore losers.

Salaam

[Sanguine]

Shehz, on 27 April 2012 - 11:07 AM, said:

Get over the NRO please, aik hi rutt ley kar baeth gayae ho for the last 3 years now!

When NS came to power in 90's, took 2/3rd majority, an entire PML lot of them had convictions on them (by the PPP then).
Even AZ had convictions (won from Liyari), so did Murtaza Bhutto, all were elected. Makhdoom Amin Faheem, his brother Rafiq, all had previous convictions and have spent a great deal of time in jail? Khar? Jatoi? Did they not win the elections? Did CEC stop them from standing?

You honestly don't recall or were just playing naive?

If I am not wrong, I have referred to NRO for the first time on the forum, dont know if you have spent a lot of time defending it in the past.

I am not playing naive, I would really like to know the names of those office bearers. The few examples I can quote from PML are the ones like Akhtar Rasool, Mian Munir, Sardar Naseem etc (who were convicted in attack on SC) and never contested the elections again (though they could after five years had elapsed). Zardari did spend a lot of time in jail but then decision of techna case (the conviction) was held null and void by Justice Jahangiri. What I know is that Khar and Jataoi did spend time in jail but that did not constitute conviction.  So I would like to know about the specific cases where the person was convicted, was sentenced to jail for at least two years, contested the elections before lapse of 5 years and was elected.

[Sanguine]

SUPARCO, on 27 April 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

Salaam,

Democratic leaders are elected by the people, dictators are not.  If you have something against the elected government, vote against them the next time... stop banging your heads on the walls like some sore losers.

Salaam

Suparco bhai bas kar jayen ab. This democratic government has been feeding people with 18th Amendment (dont know for how long we have to eat it).

If this government claims to have mandate of people, the people are suffering. At one hand, the government takes credit for restoration of judiciary, on the other hand y Kaira and rest of the lot are badmouthing the same judiciary when there is a verdict against the government.

PS:Annonymous, on 27 April 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

If you starts to learn and understand the philosophy of law then only and only you would understand the decision of court and how the law works. But let me give you a hint, Law does not mean revenge, vengeance, cruelty etc. The purpose of rule of law is to bring harmony in society. This is why there are flexibilities, mitigating circumstances etc are considered while making a decision. What court did is exactly according to the law, it may not be according to the wishes of people and hyped emotions, but according to the law. This is how court should make decision, not according to the wishes of people.

Court has given a good decision and a fair ruling. A person with an ounce of morals and values would resign after this decision. Court has done its work, now the ball is in people's court to take down the convict out of their public institution. This is an opportunity to strengthen the institution and to show that no one is above the law.

Please think rational instead of emotions and instead of justifying the wrong by referencing the wrong from past.

The court is responsible for leaving the lacuna in the decree. So many questions were raised only by the decree, I am sure the detailed order will have more, our judiciary is known for this. The intermingling of constitutional and criminal charges is something that might make the very apex course reverse this decision sooner or later in future. Lets accept the fact that our politicians know no morals. Like someone said, we elect our MNAs because we know that at the end of day the system will fail to protect us from a police constable, only that badmaash MNA can protect us so we go for the one who could protect us. Why do we then expect even an ounce of morality from them? The judges in SC should stop counting on Jang and Geo for every scam I guess because by doing so, they are wasting time and money of those poor who have somehow managed to knock the door of SC, the pendency rate is getting higher and last but not the least, SC appears as a biased institution- something it must never be.

rungroot, on 27 April 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

@Fatima47 and everyone else,

When the HELL are you all going to wake up and realize that democrazy just does NOT work, it is built INTO this system that only the corrupt and the filthy can come into power, over and over again!!!

Meray bhai main nay kab farmaya that democracy works? Perhaps you should argue the merits and demerits of democracy with Suparco. I had not even expressed my opinion on the whole issue before I responded to PS: Annonymous' post (prior to that I was only analyzing the legal aspects).

[PS:Annonymous]

You know what i perceive from you all people, you are like bunch of sparrows. who are just making noise because for the sake of making noise. You are a one of kind, you dont accept anything but your own opinions and then you all reject your own opinions for some disbelief.

Calling court biased and accusing them for some nonsense because it is not according to your own wishes and it discomfort you is itself an anti-social behavior. which makes me think that is Pakistani society a collective gathering of bunch of sociopaths suffering from some sort of paranoia. Where nothing is ever right, nothing is even enough.

Court is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't.

You are all criticizing the court for decision, but court set an example that a prime minister can be convicted and prosecuted. yet none of you are looking into it but rather you are suffering from WWE wrestling syndrome where the screaming and moaning is going on about punishment not being enough, court being biased and on and on.

Jeez people, its a fair ruling, stop politicizing everything.

[Sanguine]

What is considered supreme is the law and not any court because we have the practical examples of how the decisions were reversed by the same apex court. Now what the law says depends on which side has got a better player to manipulate or play with words. Whether the The court could award a criminal punishment (for a charge not proved beyond reasonable doubt), the invalidity of Contempt of Court Ordinance, the absence of Contempt  of Court Laws in country, the pleas for  contempt of court not taken up by the very court because of absence of such laws and many more questions that have been raised by this decree are going to provide our media with some topics to run the business for a few more weeks and will set a precedent of what an excellent judgement was given.

PS: The TRC was a surprise to only those people who were not perhaps following the news. It had already been circulating in media 2 or 3 days back.

[SUPARCO]

Fatima47, on 27 April 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Suparco bhai bas kar jayen ab. This democratic government has been feeding people with 18th Amendment (dont know for how long we have to eat it).

If this government claims to have mandate of people, the people are suffering. At one hand, the government takes credit for restoration of judiciary, on the other hand y Kaira and rest of the lot are badmouthing the same judiciary when there is a verdict against the government. ...

Salaam,

Sister, if the people don't like what is fed to them, then they will vote against the government.  Give the people of Pakistan their right to choose their own government.  If the Pakistani people feel the government has not lived upto it's promises, they're free to choose another democratic government in due course.

Why are so many people born, raised and watching Pakistan only on a television screen from abroad think they know better about the affairs of Pakistan than the people who are born, raised and living in Pakistan?  Anyone who disagrees with the government only has to wait around a year or so and then it'll be election time again.

Salaam

[PS:Annonymous]

Fatima47, on 27 April 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

What is considered supreme is the law and not any court because we have the practical examples of how the decisions were reversed by the same apex court. Now what the law says depends on which side has got a better player to manipulate or play with words. Whether the The court could award a criminal punishment (for a charge not proved beyond reasonable doubt), the invalidity of Contempt of Court Ordinance, the absence of Contempt  of Court Laws in country, the pleas for  contempt of court not taken up by the very court because of absence of such laws and many more questions that have been raised by this decree are going to provide our media with some topics to run the business for a few more weeks and will set a precedent of what an excellent judgement was given.

PS: The TRC was a surprise to only those people who were not perhaps following the news. It had already been circulating in media 2 or 3 days back.

I am not saying the court is supreme nor should we worship it. But the Rule of law must be respected and enforced. People should stop trashing the court's decision and follow it instead.

[rungroot]

Fatima47, on 27 April 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Meray bhai main nay kab farmaya that democracy works? Perhaps you should argue the merits and demerits of democracy with Suparco. I had not even expressed my opinion on the whole issue before I responded to PS: Annonymous' post (prior to that I was only analyzing the legal aspects).

Okay Sister Fatima, point taken.

[aamirzs]

[Sanguine]

PS:Annonymous, on 28 April 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

I am not saying the court is supreme nor should we worship it. But the Rule of law must be respected and enforced. People should stop trashing the court's decision and follow it instead.

Enforcing the decision is one thing which must be done, objecting to a decision on purely logical grounds is a totally different thing. President was convicted, fair enough but giving reference to Art 63 here makes no sense to me. You charge a person for a different offence and then you punish him for a different offence, does that make any sense to you? Rule of Law is all good but rule of law does not tell you that every decision is always correct. Had that been the case, there wont have been any concept of appeal and review in law.  So even if he is convicted, on legal grounds this conviction cannot disqualify him in my opinion and this is the lacuna left by the SC. Copy of judgment has already been sent to the Speaker which is tantamount to reference but then the ball is in Speaker’s court and if you ask me, the Speaker has all the grounds to believe that he is not disqualified (even if she is not pressurized by the government which is very unlikely though). And you are saying to forget technicalities, at the end of day, the same technicalities are exploited by the interested parties and above everything whats important is that every decision will set a precedent.

Btw the Parliament can also pass a resolution and declare the decree as invalid/ incorrect (which will be perhaps used only if SC orders to write the letter).

SUPARCO, on 27 April 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

Salaam,

Sister, if the people don't like what is fed to them, then they will vote against the government.  Give the people of Pakistan their right to choose their own government.  If the Pakistani people feel the government has not lived upto it's promises, they're free to choose another democratic government in due course.

Why are so many people born, raised and watching Pakistan only on a television screen from abroad think they know better about the affairs of Pakistan than the people who are born, raised and living in Pakistan?  Anyone who disagrees with the government only has to wait around a year or so and then it'll be election time again.

Salaam

Walaikum Salam,
A government that has got mandate of less than 30 million people cannot claim to be PEOPLE’s representative.  The democracy you are talking about is a myth and will remain a myth. At the end of day what matters is your loyalty to this country and its people,  and not the form of government.

The ones not residing in Pakistan have also their stakes in this place, they are no less Pakistanis and have all the right to worry about the sad state of affairs going on. Just reading the rosy figures does not change the ground reality and the reality is that this government has totally failed to deliver and I am saying that because I am still living in Pakistan and have eyes to see whats going around.