128 replies to this topic

[Web Master]

Why Pakistan Should Or Should Not Accept Israel, Some serious Points ...

Whats In It For Israel

Here is what Israel can achieve by having relations with Pakistan that India cant provide.

1.Extreme influence of Pakistan within Muslim and Arab countries. Relations with Israel will give a positive sign for other Muslim countries to start to have formal relations with Israel.

2.Nuclear Pakistan can be considered by some in Israel as a threat being the only Muslim nuclear power. Good relations with Pakistan will remove that security threat for Israel.

3.Access to Pakistani Economic market and influence to tap directly and indirectly into other Muslim countries economic markets.

4.Accesss of Pakistanis into Israeli economic market, some estimates show that trade volume between the countries could be as high as 2 billion US $ (World bank Fact Book 2004 Page 233)

5.Another additional benefit to Israel would be Pakistani acquiring of weaponry from Israel, in future meaning more $$$ $$$ for Israel.

6.Diplomatic support by Pakistan and its Muslim allies on various international issues. Including pressure on Syria, Jordan and positive impact on Arab-Israel peace process.


What do you think are losses for Israel, but most importantly what are the gains and losses for Pakistan?

[wiseking]

its clear that as much as the US would want something like this (and despite what qazi hussein says) Pakistan will not hurry to recognize israel. the damage that musharraf wanted to do, he did. he's simultaneously engaged the israelis, drawn world attention to the fact that Pakistan is a tolerant country capable of looking out beyond past hatred and petty politics, and caused mass confusion among the indians as to how they can now react. as far as i'm concerned, recognizing israel can wait. atleast the world knows now that Pakistan has overt relations with israel, without any diplomatic significance albeit, but overt relations nontheless. that will be very important. i expect the backchannel and covert relations to continue. i think Pakistan will play this card very well.

[crazyinsane105]

Well, I am not sure when Pakistan is going to accept Israel. It will only happen when there is a Palestinian state. However, Musharraf has shown the world that he is starting diplomatic relations with Israel. It also sends a message to the Jews around the world that the only nuclear power in the Muslim world is willing to be friendly. So it is a big step in the right direction.

[Saad]

President has broken a lot of ice in public during the last month. Here is my prespective of what his and indeed Pakistan's action meant and what we gained and lost:

Pakistan Not Anti Semetic Previously Pakistan was considered to have an anti semetic approach. Presidents recent address to American Jewish Congress and Kasuri's meting with Shalom proved a point that Pakistan is not anti semetic but was only fighting and looking for a Palestinian rights and Middle East peace.

Israeli Lobby Israeli lobby and other power groups which were previously being fed by Inidan groups with anti Pakistan propagenda were forced to give a second thought to all the information they were being fed, especially the one labelling Pakistan as anti Semetic. After listening to the views of attendees of the World Jewry meeting we can assume that our condition vis-a-vis Congress has improved. This will help us pull some bills through Congress in our favour.

Visit Holy Sites If we recognize Israel or the two countries allow their citizens to visit each other Pakistani Muslims may get a chance to Qibla-e-Awal and other holy sites in Israel.

Initiative Definately Pakistan was not the only Muslim country to have covert negotiations with Israel underway. But Pakistan going public took the initiative after which some other Muslim countries have acknoweldged relations with Israel including Indonesia.

Saudi Position Although Saudi Arabia may not have been totally a happy country when President informed his highness King Abdullah about his decesion. So a temperory feeling of dislike atleast may be felt. But in coming future Pakistan may act as a transit facillity for communication between Israel and Saudi Arabia much like China, USA case in late 1960s.

National Sefety We will be able to deal with the reports of "Israeli aircrafts in India for strikes on Pakistan" more authentically, although chances of this thing are quite rare now. So a more safer feeling of having to deal with only one enemy.

Trade Yes trade will definately count and we may be able to extract new technology and techniques in cotton production from Israel as it's average per acre is said to be quite high as compared to ours.

Saad

Edited by Saad, 23 September 2005 - 12:40 AM.

[Saad]

hey, I solved a Pak Studies paper question

Saad

Edited by Saad, 23 September 2005 - 02:24 AM.

[Saqr]

China and Turkey also have military relations with Israel, we solidify our relations with current allies by strengthening relations with Israel. We can also get the Jewish media and lobby to come off our back, and give us a hopefully more positive image. In addition, get the Washington lobby to support us in weapons acquisitions, etc.

[pakibath]

Here is my thought

Except for some cheap publicity to Musharaf government for being moderate, enlightened etc we are bound to waste time with this new found diplomatic experiment. Think about the following.

1. Jewish Lobby may support us but cant say, we are still a muslim country.

2. We may get access to their weapons, but still under the countrol of US.

3. We may think they will not provide weapons to India, but we dont have any control over that.

4. On the other hand we will be another target for Islamic terrorists fanatics.

[crazyinsane105]

Here is my thought

Except for some cheap publicity to Musharaf government for being moderate, enlightened etc we are bound to waste time with this new found diplomatic experiment. Think about the following.

1. Jewish Lobby may support us but cant say, we are still a muslim country.

2. We may get access to their weapons, but still under the countrol of US.

3. We may think they will not provide weapons to India, but we dont have any control over that.

4. On the other hand we will be another target for Islamic terrorists fanatics.

You may or may not be right. Musharraf is taking a big risk, but we can't go on with life without taking risks, can we? Also, many other Muslim countries have diplomatic relations with Israel. Not only that, but there is a big difference between diplomatic relations and recognizition. Musharraf made that quite clear at the meeting. However, many people in Israel are probably shocked and awed by this development: the only Muslim country that is capable of wiping out their state is actually NOT anti-semitic and is reaching out towards them? You know, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) would most likely recommed the same thing. Reach out to the people of Israel and convince them that Muslims are NOT anti-Semetic. That way, more trust will be gained between the two religions and there can actually be peace and even a free Palestinian state.

[Saad]

Here is my thought

Except for some cheap publicity to Musharaf government for being moderate, enlightened etc we are bound to waste time with this new found diplomatic experiment. Think about the following.

1. Jewish Lobby may support us but cant say, we are still a muslim country.

2. We may get access to their weapons, but still under the countrol of US.

3. We may think they will not provide weapons to India, but we dont have any control over that.

4. On the other hand we will be another target for Islamic terrorists fanatics.

As far as number 3 and 4 are concerned we can not stop any country from doing buisness with any other country unless we excercise a lot of political and economic influence over the country.

As far as fanatics are concerned we are still there target or atleast they appear not very happy with GOP untill quite recently.

Saad

Edited by Saad, 25 September 2005 - 02:25 AM.

[Yahya]

always keep them wanting some thing.

[Web Master]

We may think they will not provide weapons to India, but we dont have any control over that

this will take some time. But yes if Pak play its cards correctly it can be done. Its always based on give and take....are we willing to give Israeli what they want?.....Anything?

Edited by Web Master, 24 September 2005 - 11:16 PM.

[_killuminati_]

I don't know if its a good idea. Seems to me as if they will backstab us one day. If we recognize them now, the threat from us to them of us being a Muslim Nuclear Power will be gone, and that day might come sooner when they will backstab us.
Any of u who have contacts in the upper ends of military, or MI, may have similar views.
The deal is very decieving. It'll be very fruitful in the beginning, but in the long-term, I think, the fruits will be very bitter.

[Saad]

No, never regard that we are to be allies as Pakistan and China are but with some countries you maintain relations for some other purposes that support your cause, remember always to keep your guards up and high.

Saad

[Yahya]

Israel strikes Gaza after Hamas halts attacks
By Harvey Morris in Jerusalem
Published: September 25 2005 17:41 | Last updated: September 26 2005 10:01

Israel/Palestinian flagThe Israeli army launched fresh missile strikes on Gaza on Monday hours after the Palestinian militant group Hamas said it would halt attacks on Israel from the territory. The latest attacks continued the assault on Gaza carried out by Israel on Sunday while more than 200 Islamic activists were rounded up in the West Bank.
ADVERTISEMENT

Ariel Sharon's government is seeking to quell an upsurge in violence that could play into the hands of rightists attempting to unseat the prime minister.

On Monday Mr Sharon faces what amounts to a vote of confidence within his ruling Likud party, deeply divided over Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip this summer.

Benjamin Netanyahu, his main challenger for the leadership, has claimed that the withdrawal would encourage terrorism and weaken Israel's security.

After a wave of rocket attacks on southern Israel, the most serious bombardment by Hamas militants since the army pulled out of Gaza two weeks ago, an opinion poll among Likud central committee members showed a clear swing to Mr Netanyahu.

Ehud Olmert, vice-prime minister and one of Mr Sharon's closest cabinet allies, told Israel Radio: "I want to believe that most members of the central committee will not allow Hamas to dictate their political priorities."

An emergency cabinet meeting on Saturday night gave the army a free hand to strike militant targets. The military deployed artillery at the Gaza border and resumed a policy of targeted assassinations.

Israeli helicopters killed four Hamas militants and destroyed weapons stores and workshops in missile attacks on Saturday. Six Israelis were wounded in Hamas rocket attacks on the southern Israeli town of Sederot.

Further Israeli strikes on Sunday targeted buildings in the northern Gaza Strip.

Today's vote by the 3,000-member Likud central committee will decide whether to bring forward leadership primaries, possibly to as early as November.

Mr Sharon wants to defer a leadership battle until next spring, when rightwing anger over Gaza withdrawal might have cooled. An earlier date is seen as favouring Mr Netanyahu. The outcome of today's vote would therefore give an indication of the two men's respective standings in the party.

A poll in the daily Ma'ariv, taken after the upsurge in violence began, showed a margin of more than 8 per cent in favour of Mr Netanyahu's call for early primaries.

Mr Sharon's refusal to give a guarantee that he would remain in Likud if a leadership vote went against him has kept alive speculation that he might quit to form a new centrist alliance.

Political analysts did not believe the latest violence signalled a return to generalised conflict between Israel and Palestinian militants. Islamic Jihad launched the first rocket attacks on Friday after the army killed three of its militants in the West Bank.

Hamas launched its barrage after accusing Israel of being behind a fatal explosion at a Hamas military parade. The Israeli army and the Palestinian Authority insisted the blast was accidental.

As Hamas and other Palestinian parties prepare for participation in parliamentary elections in January and as the Sharon government attempts to highlight the benefits of Gaza withdrawal, neither side is seen as having an interest in renewed conflict.

http://news.ft.com/c...000e2511c8.html

and then take a step back when the time comes. hint hint

[sfhussain]

Pakistan Gains

Pakistan has a India as an enemy which is larger then us, we dont need additional enemies - this overt step with Israel has defused one enmity of our own choosing.

Israel is backed by very influential jewish groups especially financial and news media. The anti-Pakistan stance of these influential lobbbies will start to diminish over time.

Pakistan Losses

Some support in Arab and Islamic countries. Over time this will dissipate and be forgotten. Turkey is a case in the point.

Israel Losses

Israel looses the "complete trust" of Indians, but then the Jews were not dumb not to realize that Indians were feeding BS and they conveniently were using it to bash Pakistan.

Looking Forward

It is hard to see into the crystall ball but the Ayatollahs in Iran will be looking very carefully at the defence alliance with India. The Israelis would be looking for allies against Iran.

Edited by sfhussain, 01 October 2005 - 07:40 AM.

[Yahya]

Pakistan Gains

Pakistan has a India as an enemy which is larger then us, we dont need additional enemies - this overt step with Israel has defused one enmity of our own choosing.

Israel is backed by very influential jewish groups especially financial and news media. The anti-Pakistan stance of these influential lobbbies will start to diminish over time.

Pakistan Losses

Some support in Arab and Islamic countries. Over time this will dissipate and be forgotten. Turkey is a case in the point.

Israel Losses

Israel looses the "complete trust" of Indians, but then the Jews were not dumb not to realize that Indians were feeding BS and they conveniently were using it to bash Pakistan.

Looking Forward

It is hard to see into the crystall ball but the Ayatollahs in Iran will be looking very carefully at the defence alliance with India. The Israelis would be looking for allies against Iran.

what about the people of isreal most of them follow the fandu mentality although there are some very knowledgable and wise jews. the same fandus who where screaming why are you moving us from our land which THE LORD has granted just us why are you leting these p i g s occupy the pure land...this land must be cleansed of these p i g s and given back to the jews whome THE LORD has given this land to (these where the slogans shouted at those marches in gaza a few weeks back which where translated by BBC news reporter...) (sorry for the graphics guys, but a sencor reduces the gravity of this quote)

forces like this and many others make this relationship very unstable and unreliable. we can not deduct isreal from the formula they will always be on our list of possible sources of attack.

attainment on the technological front...well we can gain nothing but a rope around our neck. just the uncles f soulas in the past.

what i guess can be attained is a better understanding of the peoples of two nations of each other. which in a couple of decades COULD filter down to full fledged peace.

hoping to gain FDI by letting them access would be a even bigger mistake.
the people who control the mony in a nation influence heavily the leadership and institutions hence influence the nations governing. we can not afford to become a puppet state.

[sfhussain]

why are you moving us from our land which THE LORD

It is a debate between Israelis and Palestinians. There can be similar debates all over the globe to which Pakistan is not party to.

CODE

hoping to gain FDI by letting them access would be a even bigger mistake. the people who control the mony in a nation influence heavily the leadership and institutions hence influence the nations governing. we can not afford to become a puppet state.

Color of FDI $s does not reduce its effectiveness. Who has influence now? Definitely not the poor and illiterate people!

[Yahya]

It is a debate between Israelis and Palestinians. There can be similar debates all over the globe to which Pakistan is not party to.

they reffer to them as muslims not as palestinians. (they say arab but mean muslim)

[sfhussain]

they reffer to them as muslims not as palestinians. (they say arab but mean muslim)

The Palestinians refer to themselves as Arabs. The Arab countries opposition to Israel is based on ARAB Nationalism - was led by "Nasser" - a great friend of India.

Arabs have a signifiacant christain community. Israelis mean Arabs and Arabs say Arabs. Why be more Arab than Arabs and more palestinian than palestimian.

Yahya yaar why keep this Panga with Israel - It is a Panga we dont need!

Palestinians support India on Kashmir.

Edited by sfhussain, 02 October 2005 - 09:23 PM.

[aziqbal]

No decision should be made without the consent of the Pakistani people and a recent poll did suggest that the majority are against the recognition of israel.

I personally hate jews so i couldnt care less.

[penguin]

No decision should be made without the consent of the Pakistani people and a recent poll did suggest that the majority are against the recognition of israel.

I personally hate jews so i couldnt care less.

Personally I hate people who hate people. IMHO it is always better to resolve conflicts through peacefull means rather than violent means. This applies to both sides of the conflict that this thread is about. If diplomatic recognition brings a solution for peace closer, how can someone be against it?

[Yahya]

Yahya yaar why keep this Panga with Israel - It is a Panga we dont need!
Palestinians support India on Kashmir.

even with out panga there is a considerable risk from that quarter. and Pakistan always has and always will have its guard up against the isrealis...not recognising them will not mean panga...we must squeeze their balls untill blood comes out and then squeeze some more untill there is a palestine with jerousalem its capital. no one lets you just grab their balls you must first stroke thm and then squeeze them..with out a rope around your enemys neck how can you strangle him? we must also put a rope around them and make them somewhat reliant on us. if this ends up the other way around then where screwd.

we are muslims first pakistais second..they are also muslims first arabs second. and the christians are ehlal kitaab also.

[_killuminati_]

If we recognize Israel today, watch what Iran may do tomorrow with India.

[aziqbal]

If we recognize Israel today, watch what Iran may do tomorrow with India.

Thats quite true actully it could get things very hot.

[sfhussain]

Thats quite true actully it could get things very hot

Iran and India have been making it HOT for us for decades. Maybe you guys dont read the news.

Pakistan can make for them to the Boiling point - Maybe the towel heads need a real lesson!

[Yahya]

Iran and India have been making it HOT for us for decades. Maybe you guys dont read the news.

Pakistan can make for them to the Boiling point - Maybe the towel heads need a real lesson!

aslong as it is the towell heads who make it hot for us and not the entire muslim nation of iran we, i can say, are some what safe.

[sobank]

mushy has done it right. as webby said we need to play the cards right. in my opinion we need to keep it on a term so that they do not think us of a threat and we dont have to worry about them.

keep them close and keep your guards up. simply keep the good relationships but not get into bed with them.

[Saad]

I personally hate jews so i couldnt care less.

We can not accept or have enimity with a country with a reason as weird as this. Prophet and Khulfa-e-Rasideen never atleast as per my poor knowledge had enimity with anyone beacuse they hated them. They had bigger for their friendships and enimities.

Remembering Sulh Hadebia we can safely assume that there is no harm of recognizing non Muslims or Jews in this case.

It has been heard that Pakistan bashing has significantly reduced in international media after President and FM talked with World Jewish Congress and Israeli FM respectively.

Saad

[Web Master]

i just read this...i think slowly other people in Pakistan are also opening up to the idea

Pakistan should trade with Israel, says Ajmal Qadri

MULTAN: Maulana Ajmal Qadri, chief of a Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam faction, has claimed that unofficial trade between Pakistan and Israel via Jordan stands at $1 billion a year and Islamabad should officially allow trade with the Jewish state.

Qadri told reporters here on Monday that he had paid several visits to Israel via Jordan over the last 15 years in his capacity as vice president of a London-based Arab NGO. “We should not abandon our link with Baitul Maqdas (Jerusalem) and we should visit Israel to see it,” he said. Pakistan has begun trade and opened bus links with India without recognising Indian-controlled Kashmir, and a similar arrangement could be made with Israel. He said he would soon visit Israel with a 150-member delegation. To a question, Qadri said he would like to see a “crusade” for the liberation of Palestine, but he thought it unlikely considering the “apathetic state” of Muslim countries. “We should continue negotiations with Israel so that Palestinians can get relief,” he said.

Qadri also criticised the government of Nawaz Sharif for conducting underground nuclear tests in 1998, saying the tests probably increased the likelihood of earthquakes, such as the one of October 8 that destroyed Azad Kashmir and parts of NWFP. staff report
http://www.dailytime...-11-2005_pg7_42

[blain2]

Can anyone tell me who this Ajmal Qadri guy is?? He seems as mysterious as Pakistan's NSC advisor Tariq Aziz. BTW, Has anyone seen Tariq Aziz's picture??

[wiseking]

Can anyone tell me who this Ajmal Qadri guy is??  He seems as mysterious as Pakistan's NSC advisor Tariq Aziz.  BTW, Has anyone seen Tariq Aziz's picture??

theres been some shadiness about the trip to israel. qadri claims he went on behalf of the Pakistani government. the GoP denies this charge. they claim he went on his own volition. i dont know who's telling the truth. but as the article says, he seems to be just the head of some islamic jamaat in Pakistan. not all that a significant character in my thoughts. i agree about tariq aziz though. seems the position is not so coveted.

[Yahya]

when they pulled out of gaza it was a step forward now they have taken some steps backwards thus so should we.

[blain2]

. not all that a significant character in my thoughts. i agree about tariq aziz though. seems the position is not so coveted.

Actually the position is very coveted (he has the ears of both Musharraf and the PM). Its just that his name has been mentioned as he is present for all of the NSC meetings and is also involved in backchannel diplomacy with India...just no picture to place along with the name...

[visioninthedark]

they reffer to them as muslims not as palestinians. (they say arab but mean muslim)

Palestinianians are Christians and Muslims ... what unites them is their being ARAB ...

Saeb Erakat and Hanan Asrawi are both vocal members of the PLO since its inception ... and both are Christians ...

Even the PFLP (Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine) which is even a MORE terrorist organization than Hamas is run by George Habash ... a Christian ... he is its founder ...

Even the late Doctor Edward Said ... the most vocal Palestinian cause in the US ... was Christian ...

Arafat's wife is Christian ... and her mother is Jewish ...

Palestinians NEVER refer to their problem as an ISLAMIC one ... but ALWAYS an ARAB one ...

[Yahya]

Palestinianians are Christians and Muslims ... what unites them is their being ARAB ...

Saeb Erakat and Hanan Asrawi are both vocal members of the PLO since its inception ... and both are Christians ...

Even the PFLP (Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine) which is even a MORE terrorist organization than Hamas is run by George Habash ... a Christian ... he is its founder ...

Even the late Doctor Edward Said ... the most vocal Palestinian cause in the US ... was Christian ...

Arafat's wife is Christian ... and her mother is Jewish ...

Palestinians NEVER refer to their problem as an ISLAMIC one ... but ALWAYS an ARAB one ...

i was reffering to who the jews hate not who the PLO is. lol.

[ZFBoxcar]

We don't hate Muslims. I mean in general. There are certain individual Muslims that I hate, but there are certain Jews I hate too. I guess I can't speak on behalf of all Jews, but I don't know any that hate most Muslims (although I'm sure there are plenty of biggoted Jews).

[Hellraiser006]

with all due respect to those members here who support the recognition of Israel and those who may be Jewish themselves, i must say the this whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Its like washing your hands in p-ig-s blood because the only other thing you can use is someone elses urine.

We could recognise the state of Israel and gain many benefits but ultimatly at what cost?

we can recognise the state of Israel and gain all those goodies we as Pakistani are so desperate for: a pat on the back by the US, the white man saying what a nice bunch of people we are really, A few rich New York Jews inviting our leaders out for a kosher lunch and giving the nod for us to recieve US weapons. I can go on and on but i am sure you understand what i am saying.

in return we lose our souls.

Pakistan's friendship and ethics are easy aren't they. A little country like Isreal (sitting on land that was muslim and stolen) can fire our imaginations so much it is unreal. We are desperate for a little kosher loving aren't we?

please oh please be my friend! lets play together Mr Sharon, we will forget the thousands of muslims you have killed either directly or indirectly, we will forget the land that you have taken, we will find a way of justifying all this to ourselves in some way, we will call it self interest , we will call it progressive, we will call it peacemaking we will call it a dozen things. we will be able to sleep at night we are sure about that.

of course, we should make friends with Israel, why not, they have killed fewer muslims than some of our other friends.

Edited by Hellraiser006, 11 December 2005 - 05:21 AM.

[ZFBoxcar]

with all due respect to those members here who support the recognition of Israel and those who may be Jewish themselves, i must say the this whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Its like washing your hands in p-ig-s blood because the only other thing you can use is someone elses urine.

Nah..how could anybody be offended by comparing washing your hands with ###### blood to talking to us.

please oh please be my friend! lets play together Mr Sharon, we will forget the thousands of muslims you have killed either directly or indirectly, we will forget the land that you have taken, we will find a way of justifying all this to ourselves in some way, we will call it self interest , we will call it progressive, we will call it peacemaking we will call it a dozen things. we will be able to sleep at night we are sure about that.

You're contradicting your argument that you made in the other thread about this. If you can talk to the US, why can't you talk to Israel? Israel exists and there is nothing you or anybody can do about it, just like the creation of the US can not be reversed. Neither Israel nor Pakistan actually need each other, so its no big deal, but it just seems to stupid to not be able to get over an event that happened 60 years ago in which 800,000 Jews (who were expelled from your precious Muslim lands) and 600,000 Muslims lost their homes. Both sides suffered, it just happens that the Jews won. Besides, Israel has over a million Muslim citizens who have more rights than they would under any Arab regime.

[Yahya]

We don't hate Muslims.  I mean in general.  There are certain individual Muslims that I hate, but there are certain Jews I hate too.  I guess I can't speak on behalf of all Jews, but I don't know any that hate most Muslims (although I'm sure there are plenty of biggoted Jews).

why are you guys behind all the terror?

when these harami devil worshipers (on both sides) quit. i will not blame the jews.
never the less that doesnt mean i trust you.

even i can be diplomatic as you can see above.

[ZFBoxcar]

why are you guys behind all the terror?

If we were behind it then maybe I would have a difficult time answering you.

when these harami devil worshipers (on both sides) quit. i will not blame the jews.

I don't know what you mean by harami devil worshipers, but if you mean fanatics, then does that mean it is okay for Jews to blame Muslims (since they exist, as you said, on both sides)?

even i can be diplomatic as you can see above.

never the less that doesnt mean i trust you.

Very diplomatic