1821 replies to this topic

[ISI2003]

So out of your own imagination you have stretched it to mean 52+ which means standard 52 + somethings from Block 60.

Unless you don't give me a credible source i am bound to believe reuters news service.

I remeber reading a press release or news article when the deal was annouced, although i don't have the kink, other wise we would all know it would be simple block 52+, but with technology aviable from the block 60, they don't want to pass up the option of getting something better now, at the start, to counter the SU-30MKI

ISI,

Also in your opinion what kind of configuration will make your new F-16s overall electronically equivalent to Su-30MKI ?

block 52 can have some block 60 tech put in
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_news_article841.html


http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html
http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/comparison-f16-f18-su30-1.html

electronically, you probably mean components, beyond the design and weapons systems (thrust vectoring would help, but it probably will not be aviable for new pakistani f-16's)

but first of all i have to say, that the 50G Aim-9X and the regular Aim-120C can be guided by a HMCS to handle a highly manerivable su-30mki on a regular block 52+
(so these are really central)

but beyond that, you have to understand what the su-30mki can do, there are four main areas of electronic equipement areas

1. Flight Control and related Avionics (F-16 Better than the Su-30MKI in this area)

2. Indian Contribution (Mission computers, and IFF) (F-16 Better than the Su-30MKi in this area)
------------------------------------------------------


3. Radar (SU-30MKI Radar is Phazotron NO11M Bars radar; phased array with 350 km search range and a 200 km tracking range..."Design maximum search range for an F-16 target was 140-160km")...also Integration with Rafael Litening pod

4. ECM/Self Defence (Elta EL/M-8222 EW pod)

So the key areas we have to look at
A. Phazotron NO11M Bars Radar
B. Rafael Litening pod (latest lantirn or sniper targetting pod good, a2a these don't matter)
C. Elta EL/M-8222 EW pod

F-16 Radar Information

Maximum effective detective Range:
AN/APG-68 V5: 70~80 km for RCS = 5m2 target
AN/APG-68 V9: 90~105 km for RCS = 5m2 target
AN/APG-80: 130km for RCS = 5m2 target

The APG-80 is also harder to jam probably. And since the RCS of the F-16 is much smaller, the same jammers would be more effective to protect it.

Add to that:
the F-16 has an AESA radar, which is harder to jam and detect.

the F-16 has a much smaller RCS, so its ECM would be more effective. ( and jamming power decreases in 1/r2 so theoretically since the RCS of the F-16 is 1/10 that of the su-30, with equal ECMs the F-16 can get about 3 times closer)

the F-16 should be able to fire AMRAAMs without turning on its radar, and still be able to guide the missiles.

the AIM-120D should give the F-16 the first shot against standard R-77, even if it launches from a lower altitude and at a bit slower speed.

the AIM-120D probably has a significantly higher pk than the R-77.

the F-16 could be armed with long range missile.

WVR, the F-16 is not disadvantaged.
The F-16 with APG-80, AN/ALQ-165 and AIM-120D could even be superior to the su-30. The su-30 has the advantage of being slightly faster, having better endurence and being able to carry more missiles however. And if it's armed with R-77Ms it has the advantage again, unless the F-16 is able to jam it..

"They contend that the Su-30MK can only get its BVR missile shot off first against a large radar target like the F-15. While it's true that the Su-30 MK would not succeed against the stealthy F-22 or F-35, neither would it regularly beat the nonstealthy (but relatively small radar cross section) F-16 or F/A-18E/F, they said."


what is left is the block 60's EW Suite, can anyone give information on that ("revolutionary Electronic Warfare (EW) system")

[ISI2003]

Singapore upgrades to Block 60
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_news_article841.html

Friday, September 12, 2003 - Singapore recently announced that it is going to upgrade its fleet of Block 52 F-16s, to Block 60 standards.

although this might not be possible, it might be, and pakistani should look into it

to bring the block 52+ f-16 to counter the su-30MKi are the two key internal things

1. AN/APG-80
2. The Block 60's EW Suite

along with the Aim-9X and Aim-120C, this will provide adequete things for the f-16's to effectively counter the Su-30MKI

the upgrade of the radar should not cost more than 10 Million, and the EW suite Upgrade should not cost more than 5 Million (yes these are my guesses, but if i'm wrong please correct me)

15 million per plane * 75 planes = $1.125 Billion Upgrade
------------------------------------------------------------------

each of the 75 planes would be 60 million each = $4.5 billion instead of $3.375 billion, now i think this is worth it, if the american's are willing to sell

[crazyinsane105]

Singapore upgrades to Block 60
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_news_article841.html
although this might not be possible, it might be, and pakistani should look into it

to bring the block 52+ f-16 to counter the su-30MKi are the two key internal things

1. AN/APG-80
2. The Block 60's EW Suite

along with the Aim-9X and Aim-120C, this will provide adequete things for the f-16's to effectively counter the Su-30MKI

the upgrade of the radar should not cost more than 10 Million, and the EW suite Upgrade should not cost more than 5 Million (yes these are my guesses, but if i'm wrong please correct me)

15 million per plane * 75 planes = $1.125 Billion Upgrade
------------------------------------------------------------------

each of the 75 planes would be 60 million each = $4.5 billion instead of $3.375 billion, now i think this is worth it, if the american's are willing to sell

They are willing to sell. However, Pakistan is more interested in saving its $$$ for another 4th generation jet fighter. That's why PAF isn't getting the latest F-16's.

[ISI2003]

They are willing to sell. However, Pakistan is more interested in saving its $$$ for another 4th generation jet fighter. That's why PAF isn't getting the latest F-16's.

but where else will we be able to get an advnaced fighter of this caliber with out going all out to support the new plane

i'm just saying that if we are going to spend 3.375 billion we should consider putting in 1.175 more billion and making this plane alot better (its a 33% increase in price with alot of payoff)

the alternative is getting the rafale which will be crazy expensive, and for 100 million each it will defeat the purpose of saving money

honestly we all know the j-10 is th eonly realistic option in terms of being the other 4th generation plane and therfore the f-16 has to be the best it can be, because it will be the front line fighter to face against the su-30mki

40+75= 115 f-16's and if they are mostly carrying the advanced radar and ew suite and aim-9x and aim-120c/d they will invoke fear into the indian pilots

i know the danger is that india will just buy 126 of the exact same plane but the same arguement could be said about every other plane with advanced equipement in the area of the f-16, that we want to buy

we are going to go for the f-16 anyways, we should try to make the planes as good as possible, because for the forseeable future these planes will be the frontline of our air force (because of the numbers), no matter what other plane we get (we don't plan to get 100 M2K-9's or 100 Rafales)

[Mig29Lover]

If I was one who manages the defence expenditure I would go freely with no hands with this ISI. I would buy 80 New F-16s Block 60 or customized version, with 60 Rafales. It would become a sweet airforce.

And it would be paid by????????????  

[Lightning F57]

I was under the impression, as the UAE funded the advance systems on the Block 60 F-16s, any second country wanting same systems would most likely not only need clearance from the US but also from UAE.  After all its their funded technology being used.

[Adloph Hitler]

AOA
I think Pakistan leave to buy these F-16s because now much far better aircraft has been build as compared to F-16s.  Pakistan should go for Saab multi-role fighters, F-18 Super Hornets, Su-30MKI, Rifle and F-16C/D in that condition if USA transfer it technology to Pakistan.
I have another idea that is better if Pakistan and China make their own 4th generation aircraft. In this case Pakistan have no need to buy spare-parts from other country and it is also make to enhance Pakistani defense exports.
AH    

[ISI2003]

I was under the impression, as the UAE funded the advance systems on the Block 60 F-16s, any second country wanting same systems would most likely not only need clearance from the US but also from UAE.  After all its their funded technology being used.

if uae has ownership over the block 60 technology, then we will have to ask them

if we ask them now, and if they approved, then we can go and ask the us for a cutomized block 52 with the APG-80 and EW suite of the Block 60 (which would be exactly what we need to counter the Su-30MKI)

If I was one who manages the defence expenditure I would go freely with no hands with this ISI. I would buy 80 New F-16s Block 60 or customized version, with 60 Rafales. It would become a sweet airforce.

you are not taking into account the money that we would need for this, you are suggesting something that will cost us 12.4 billion

what I am suggesting is 4.5 billion (an upgrade of 1.175 billion)
an upgrade of two components (radar and EW suite) to make the plane capable of countering the SU-30MKI on its own

after this we would probably purchase 100 J-10's to bring our numbers up, and forfill the other 4th generation aircraft requirement (2.5 billion)

total of the F-16/J-10 acquistion would be 7 billion dollars instead of 12.4 billion that you are suggesting

[kilo19]

im back after a longtime but it seems tht we haven't stopped day dreamin abt the F-sollah. Guys tell me 75 C/Ds at $45 mill each, is it worth it? if we want to buy the 16 Y waste resources on the JF-17? After all the 17 is gonna replace the 16 in our force. It also raises the same issue as we used to pinch the Indians whn they were buyin 126 Mirages/F-16s (i guess they still are) or any other type after spendin so much on the LCA.

I think we shud go for somethin in the cat of Rafale/Eurofighter other thn tht we r not gonna gain any edge against the much larger and in many ways superior IAF. It wud be better to spend money on J-10 and JF-17 upgrades thn buy 16s from our "reliable" and "trusty" friend the USA.

[Saqr]

im back after a longtime but it seems tht we haven't stopped day dreamin abt the F-sollah. Guys tell me 75 C/Ds at $45 mill each, is it worth it? if we want to buy the 16 Y waste resources on the JF-17? After all the 17 is gonna replace the 16 in our force.

FYI, the F-16s have a lot more range and payload than the JF-17.  The F-16 has a true combat and service record, JF-17 hasn't even entered service yet!  JF-17 is supposed to form the backbone, the F-16 the mainbone, to make up for the lack of range, payload, technology JF-17 has.

[Adloph Hitler]

FYI, the F-16s have a lot more range and payload than the JF-17.  The F-16 has a true combat and service record, JF-17 hasn't even entered service yet!  JF-17 is supposed to form the backbone, the F-16 the mainbone, to make up for the lack of range, payload, technology JF-17 has.

But my dear JF-17 is your own aircraft. You don’t need to buy their spare-parts from other countries in wartime.
OK may suppose 2 JF-17 = 1 F-16 then I think JF 17 is good because that is your own build aircraft and I think there is equalent aircraft in IAF as compare to JF-17.
JF-17 is too much for PAF as their needs we don’t need more F-16s
(Trust on your war machines)  

[Saqr]

JF-17 is too much?  How so?

Yes JF-17 is our own aircraft, and yes we're committed to buy the original and only number, 150, nothing has changed.  The PAF has always been striving for another fighter aircraft (maybe 2 if you're super optimistic), now, of all of the PAF's options, honestly, which one do you think is the best?  Our war machines will be limited as compared to what the enemy is using, if JF-17 cannot match up to the range or payload of F-16, how can the PAF inflict offensive damange conventionally?  

Technically, my friend, F-16 is the cheapest option for a more advanced jet beyond JF-17, I'm sure many wouldn't give a toss if the PAF were to go for 75 Rafales, despite it being double or nearly triple the cost of JF-17.  In addition to that, draining our resources to simply maintain them!

[rabirizvi]

hey i m just back after having ma exams,filling maself with all the new info available.should confess that i m really excited.have got this confusion dat i want some senior members or ones with some info on it can clear it for me.Its been said dat Paf will get the latest f-16s 50/52, some say its 50/52+, but some say otherwise(meaning just the baseline 50/52)i really wanna know which one will it b out of these 2, as they r slightly different from eachother.Or is it that its status  will b confirmed once Paf talks the avionics and other stuff over wid LM.thanks in advance

[Mig29Lover]

But my dear JF-17 is your own aircraft. You don’t need to buy their spare-parts from other countries in wartime.
OK may suppose 2 JF-17 = 1 F-16 then I think JF 17 is good because that is your own build aircraft and I think there is equalent aircraft in IAF as compare to JF-17.
JF-17 is too much for PAF as their needs we don’t need more F-16s
(Trust on your war machines)

RIght, but on the other hand, our needs have changed a lot ever since IAF induction of MKIs. We probably can counter their Mig 29s with our Falcons and Mirages but honestly, we don't have a cure for MKI yet. F-16 50/52 is not quite a cure but it can hold itself tough against MKI.
JF-17, as Divin Falcon said, has a lot to improve. We would be biased if we thought that Thunder can be compareable to latest Falcons. Falcons are the cheapest and most obvious answer to indian induction of new aircrafts. It is a combat proven aircraft. I haven't heard about MKI being used in any A2A combat but whatever we have seen on media is enought to know that MKI is way superior than out F-16 A/Bs.  

[h177]

hey i m just back after having ma exams,filling maself with all the new info available.should confess that i m really excited.have got this confusion dat i want some senior members or ones with some info on it can clear it for me.Its been said dat Paf will get the latest f-16s 50/52, some say its 50/52+, but some say otherwise(meaning just the baseline 50/52)i really wanna know which one will it b out of these 2, as they r slightly different from eachother.Or is it that its status  will b confirmed once Paf talks the avionics and other stuff over wid LM.thanks in advance

just look at the MTOW of F-16 and spine. thats the major difference between standard block 52 and advance block 52. I am not concerned about avionics as even block 15 can be upgraded to block 60 standard later time.
what F-16 brings to PAF is not simply advance tech but reliable engine (which PAF knows it how to mantain), extra payload (10,000kg in case of advance version) and greater range if CFT are installed and that is the main things.  avionics stuff is not important if PAF goes for AWACS and net centric warfare.

[ISI2003]

to counter the su-30mki's we will have to go for the rafales

in the ACM's interview, he said the mirage 2000-5 issue is bascially dead, but thr french were pushing for the sale of the rafale

so that could mean the rafales are on the table for the PAF, we just have to come up with the money

and when 40 f-16's "could" hold off many many more mig-29's back in the 80's (psychologically), at least 40-50 rafales will be needed to hold off the su-30mki's

the thing that we need from our frontline fighter is simple

1. the ability to detect the other guy before he detects us first
2. the ability to get off the first shot
3. the ability to escape the su-30mki's weapons
4. have the ability to do the first three when ever nessecary

the rafale has a better radar then the su-30mki and the rafale has a lower RCS then the su-30mki, so the rafale will detect the su-30mki before the su-30mki can detect it

the rafale can fire the most advanced european weapons like the mica, which is better than the r-77

the rafale was built to counter the flanker series of fighters, and among its many defenses is the active cancelaation system, which cancels the lock a su-30's weapons might get on the rafale, so it will reduce the possibility of getting shot down

finally, unlike the f-16, the rafale will be the next generation of french fighters and will get upgrades, so pakistan can get better and better technology, so as the su-30mki is upgraded the PAF Rafales can be upgraded to match the threat

at 48-50 rafales, it will form a decent front line against the hundreds of indian fighters, and will provide a real deep strike fighter/bomber

this is the plane to get

[Mig29Lover]

to counter the su-30mki's we will have to go for the rafales

in the ACM's interview, he said the mirage 2000-5 issue is bascially dead, but thr french were pushing for the sale of the rafale

so that could mean the rafales are on the table for the PAF, we just have to come up with the money

and when 40 f-16's "could" hold off many many more mig-29's back in the 80's (psychologically), at least 40-50 rafales will be needed to hold off the su-30mki's

the thing that we need from our frontline fighter is simple

1. the ability to detect the other guy before he detects us first
2. the ability to get off the first shot
3. the ability to escape the su-30mki's weapons
4. have the ability to do the first three when ever nessecary

the rafale has a better radar then the su-30mki and the rafale has a lower RCS then the su-30mki, so the rafale will detect the su-30mki before the su-30mki can detect it

the rafale can fire the most advanced european weapons like the mica, which is better than the r-77

the rafale was built to counter the flanker series of fighters, and among its many defenses is the active cancelaation system, which cancels the lock a su-30's weapons might get on the rafale, so it will reduce the possibility of getting shot down

finally, unlike the f-16, the rafale will be the next generation of french fighters and will get upgrades, so pakistan can get better and better technology, so as the su-30mki is upgraded the PAF Rafales can be upgraded to match the threat

at 48-50 rafales, it will form a decent front line against the hundreds of indian fighters, and will provide a real deep strike fighter/bomber

this is the plane to get

Buying Rafale may not be a big pain in the ass than maintaining it. I would drain our military budget looking at our current economy.

[rabirizvi]

thanks h177  for replying back, really appreciate it.today i read an interview of PAF ACM(the interview was done by jung) in which he said dat US still not ready to give us sensitive technology. and we didnt get much out of MNNA status, so in this context do u think we will be given aim120 b(cause i hardly think we can get our hands on aim120c for now dat is)
In dat interview he also said dat US offered us 24 f-16s but we rejected it n asked dem 75 (i cant remember the right figure but it was in 70s) out of which 55 will be brand new while the others will b used 1s...which will b later upgraded. He also said dat we didnt go for mirage 2000-5 because now we r getting F-16s.1 thing i noted was that there was no indication of another 4th generation aircraft. he also talked on AWACS, he said US offered us E-2 but we didnt accept the deal as the system is an old one. The interview is in 2day's paper.let me see if i can find any URl link to it

[kilo19]

the attitude being shown towards the 16 is as if the USA is our gr8 friend, how soon ppl forget the F-104 n 16 stories of the 60's n the 90's. Most of u don't evn know whn r we getting these if we r getting them, im sure we wont be gettin the AMRAAM and other modern weapons which make the 16 so exceptional, without the modern weaponary the 16 is as good as the 17. Does any1 ovr here seriously think tht we r gonna get the latest set of radars n EW kits on the 16s.  I mean wakeup guys the F-16 now is the biggest own the PAF can score.

[kilo19]

i think most of us dont knw the economics of the maintainence of the rafale and just sayin cuz its french its gonna cost us more, ive nva heard ppl complaining abt the mirages (III to 2000-5) being expensive to maintain and in my opinion why go for the last jet of the last century and not the latest of the new one. The Rafale is the genuine solution with reliable spares and modern weaponary wihc is not guaranteed wid da 16, maybe PAF just wants the french to stay in their senses by showing thm tht they have options.

[rabirizvi]

I seriously think dat till the time Paf effectively fields SD-10, our chances of getting a bvr from US are slim

[rabirizvi]

here is the link to the interview i was reffering to.its in urdu,hope it works
http://65.36.130.231/urdu/

and here is the english version of it
http://www.jang-group.com/thenews/index.html

Saadat flies by F-16 deterrence value

Acquisition of jets won’t bridge imbalance with India, admits air chief

By Shakil Shaikh

ISLAMABAD: The US would complete the process of approving Pakistan’s request for 75 multifaceted F-16 Fighting Falcons by September or October, hoped Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat here Monday.

"It’s not a done deal either way....we want 75 advanced version Falcons of which 50 to 55 must be Cs and Ds class and others may be used but upgraded ones," he said.,

He was giving an interview to The News/Jang panel comprising Fahd Hussain (Editor, The News, Rawalpindi), Shakil Shaikh (Chief Reporter, The News, Rawalpindi), Hanif Khalid (Chief Reporter Daily Jang) and Rana Ghulam Qader (Staff Report Daily Jang) at his Air Headquarters office.

He said, "Pakistan has already rejected the offer of 25 F-16 jets by the Americans." Saadat said even with the arrival of Falcons, disparity gap of the fighter jets between India and Pakistan would not be bridged. "But we should have an air force with deterrence value, as a few dozen Falcons would not be acceptable to us."

The General Dynamics F-I 6A and two-seat F-I 6B were succeeded in 1983 by the F-I 6C and two-seat F-I 6D, with new radar, totally upgraded avionics, a new cockpit and many extra items including two Lantirn pods filled with infrared, laser and other types of sensor which assist in night attack. Pakistan, the air force chief said, would like to have as many F-16 Falcons as it is possible given the ground realities. "We want a number of multi-role Cs and Ds F-16 Falcons which restore our original capability."

One F-16 would cost Pakistan around $40 million and probably the money would be paid from the aid package, as 75 F-16s would cost Pakistan a huge amount ($3 billion).

"We are not in an arms race with India, as Pakistan wants to give peace a chance which should not come through weakness but a position of strength," said Saadat.

Clad in his uniform, the Air Force Chief said Pakistan has not given up its other options like Grippen jets, though "the option of Mirage-2000-5 is almost given up as the French people are now aggressively marketing their Rafale aircraft."

Justifying Pakistan’s quest to acquire 75 Fighting Falcons from the Americans, Saadat said: "Our effort is to have deterrence value and if an enemy aircraft intends to violate our air space, the incoming flying machine must be shot down or we must have the capability to give a matching response."

He believed that Pakistan Air Force should be good enough to give a fight that hurts the enemy.

"Effective fleet of aircraft with good weapons and avionics can make the difference in modern warfare where one is not required to send land forces like in the past to occupy enemy land...now it is the war to see how much damage can be caused to the enemy."

Saadat said the key purpose of an air force is to cease, move and destroy enemy things and realising this the government at the highest level has allocated sufficient funds to it with maximum allocation made out of three services.

"With changing concept of warfare, the PAF is very much equipped with giving the enemy a good fight and it depends on a combination of factors," he maintained.

Saadat said it is not an easy thing or immediate possibility to produce high-quality equipment through indigenisation, as this process of indigenisation is very, very slow and it requires huge investment, and an organised structure.

"It would be our wishful thinking to start producing high-quality military hardware and weapons."

He said the government has already approved a 10-15 years integrated plan for the country’s forces and PAF was given the best deal for which we should be proud of.

He said JF-17 Thunder, a Pak-China joint venture, induction would prove best for the force, as there is no prize for a runner up in the war.

"We can go further in avionics and other things once the production of JF-17 starts...it’s an extremely good and important project," said Air Chief Marshal Saadat, who succeeded as chief of air staff on March 18, 2003 following the demise of Mushaf Ali Mir in an air crash.

"JF-17 will be better than all the existing aircraft - Mirages, A-5 and F-7. These are in no way close to it," he said adding, "it will replace all these aircraft."

JF-17 Thunder will be a mid-tech aircraft and within a couple of years it will be produced as test flights have already run.

He said Pakistan was offered to buy Hawkeye E-2C but it is unlikely that the PAF would opt for it, though a long list of weapons were handed over to the Americans and it would take some time to go through a process before the final decision is taken by the US administration.

He said no breakthrough is achieved with Russia in arms purchase and it could only happen once India parts its ways with Moscow and look the other way.

He said no deal is being negotiated with Britain and that could only happen if they offer integrated system. "That is why, I am not going to Paris Air Show, nor did I visit London because the British make the excuse of American sanctions in that realm," said Saadat.

He said the US sanctions are still there in view of the intellectual property rights and sensitive technologies. "The PAF has got no benefit out of non-Nato status given to Pakistan," he said.

Responding to a question, he said he is not regularly flying. He said it is a sensational outing, and one is on his own after taking off.

[Saqr]

kilo19

I'm afraid you're short on recent news.  

If and when an order is signed, it'll take three (3) years for the initial 4-8 aircraft to arrive in Pakistan, with the rest following in the remaining three years, it is a long-term programme.  Also, don't forget, "Clad in his uniform, the Air Force Chief said Pakistan has not given up its other options like Grippen jets, though "the option of Mirage-2000-5 is almost given up as the French people are now aggressively marketing their Rafale aircraft.", adequate proof that PAF hasn't given up on alternative options besides F-16s, so the chances of Falcons being final isn't confirmed!

[Adloph Hitler]

How i can edit my photo in "my control" because when i edit me photo it give me an error. please tell me step by step

[ISI2003]

rafales are a realistic option and the only plane open to the PAF that can realistically handle the su-30mki

all we have to a maintan is 48 rafales, the issue is cost, but considering we will ony have 3 types of which one will be the backbone and the other we have good expereicne with

suppose it cost us 20-30% or even 50% more to maintain the rafales they provide great capabilities, but the plane is designed to require little maintainance, its engines and othe componnets are high quality, so the plane should run great

i have been an advocate for the rafale for a long time, it is what our own top guns, our pilots say we need, and who else better to say what we need then pur pilots

can you imagine the moral booster three squadrans of rafales will do

also we can try to get the saudi's on board to get the rafalaes and package the deal, so as to reduce the cost to both of us and improve the pakistani-saudi military realtions

if we can get technology from the rafale and put it on the jf-17 we could sell it to the saudi's as they would opearte the rafales so france would not mind, and we would also have upgraded jf-17's

4 billion for the ability to make our air force a great air force once against
this will make us have quality over the indian quantity

[Adloph Hitler]

Plz tell us some more options.

[kilo19]

diving falcon man i knw tht we have other realistic options but im only sayin tht ppl r talkin like the falcon is da only option.

[fiaz]

rafales are a realistic option and the only plane open to the PAF that can realistically handle the su-30mki

all we have to a maintan is 48 rafales, the issue is cost, but considering we will ony have 3 types of which one will be the backbone and the other we have good expereicne with

suppose it cost us 20-30% or even 50% more to maintain the rafales they provide great capabilities, but the plane is designed to require little maintainance, its engines and othe componnets are high quality, so the plane should run great

i have been an advocate for the rafale for a long time, it is what our own top guns, our pilots say we need, and who else better to say what we need then pur pilots

can you imagine the moral booster three squadrans of rafales will do

also we can try to get the saudi's on board to get the rafalaes and package the deal, so as to reduce the cost to both of us and improve the pakistani-saudi military realtions

if we can get technology from the rafale and put it on the jf-17 we could sell it to the saudi's as they would opearte the rafales so france would not mind, and we would also have upgraded jf-17's

4 billion for the ability to make our air force a great air force once against
this will make us have quality over the indian quantity

I think we should get upgraded F-16's ONLY from the US and use the rest of the $$$'s for Rafales. BUT WE SHOULD WAIT AND LET THE INDIANS GO FOR SOME OTHER FIGHTER BEFORE WE GO FOR THE RAFALE.

For once our leadership should NOT think of the price and go for the cheaper option but go for top quality fighter that can handle the SU-30's.

[h177]

thanks h177  for replying back, really appreciate it.today i read an interview of PAF ACM(the interview was done by jung) in which he said dat US still not ready to give us sensitive technology. and we didnt get much out of MNNA status, so in this context do u think we will be given aim120 b(cause i hardly think we can get our hands on aim120c for now dat is)
In dat interview he also said dat US offered us 24 f-16s but we rejected it n asked dem 75 (i cant remember the right figure but it was in 70s) out of which 55 will be brand new while the others will b used 1s...which will b later upgraded. He also said dat we didnt go for mirage 2000-5 because now we r getting F-16s.1 thing i noted was that there was no indication of another 4th generation aircraft. he also talked on AWACS, he said US offered us E-2 but we didnt accept the deal as the system is an old one. The interview is in 2day's paper.let me see if i can find any URl link to it

If u properly understand the interview. the bottom line is that PAF does not want to pay for those F-16s. they want to save money for another aircraft from another source. so the numbers keep changing. i can forsee 40 new F-16 and 30 old. and mostly all of the free. the number may go down alittle bit.

[ISI2003]

I think we should get upgraded F-16's ONLY from the US and use the rest of the $$$'s for Rafales. BUT WE SHOULD WAIT AND LET THE INDIANS GO FOR SOME OTHER FIGHTER BEFORE WE GO FOR THE RAFALE.

For once our leadership should NOT think of the price and go for the cheaper option but go for top quality fighter that can handle the SU-30's.

good post
we are going to get 75 block 52+ (hopefully) at 40 million each
if we sign this deal, we will wait until the rafales are fully operational (F3 standard)

we will let the indians make the next move, or just get the rafale when  they become operational in 2008, so between now and 2008, we start negioations with the french and try to get the saudi's on board, to package the deal

[Saqr]

diving falcon man i knw tht we have other realistic options but im only sayin tht ppl r talkin like the falcon is da only option.

Forget what air force enthusiasts say, the PAF top brass doesn't seem to be THAT enthusiastic with F-16, and would rather buy something else.

[airforcefan]

ISI,

I won't believe this F-16 block 52+ thing until you don't get me credible source that validates above claim. On the other hand it is more likely that Block 52+ will be offered to india. You will be surprised why i am saying that hence i have posted something for you.

I am gonna post something about Boeing's offer for India. Before you go ahead and read NOTE: this doesn't means that india is gonna get this fighter. Neither this means that India will get F-16 block 52+.

Infact you know, i know and all sensible people know including IAF that MRCA will be won by French Mirages. And india is gonna use this American offer to pressurize Dassault into a more favorable deal in terms of ToT and price. France is in state of shock ever since it lost $7billion deal to Boeing for Air India jets. This is also made Boeing happy and they being captilist want $9 billion allocated for MRCA fighter deal by MoD, India. Boeing's offer will drive LM to offer a F-16 with an AESA which will make it Block 52+.



Foreign Air Forces Eye the F/A-18E/F
Aviation Week & Space Technology 05/02/2005
David Fulghum Washington

Foreign air forces eye the F/A-18E/F while Navy officials prepare to buy more

Super Hornet vs. JSF

While celebrating delivery to the U.S. Navy of the first F/A-18E/Fs equipped with a stealth and small-target-detecting radar, Boeing officials said that Switzerland, Japan and India are looking at both the advanced fighter and some variant of its classified advanced radar for a future fighter purchase.

More surprisingly, Navy officials say they are planning for the possibility of their own additional fighter production because of the expectation, not yet confirmed, that operational introduction of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will slip.

"THERE WILL BE a competition [in Japan and India] for up to about 200 fighter airplanes," says Jim Albaugh, president and CEO of Boeing integrated defense systems. "We are considering [offering] the F-15 as well as the Super Hornet. We have been engaged in Japan trying to understand their requirements. We are getting engaged with India. Our customers' requirements will drive the offerings."

Boeing executives have said unofficially that the company is proposing a $53-million version of the Super Hornet for export. They believe there is a realistic chance of obtaining export license approval to sell the aircraft with some version of the new APG-79 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar that is just now being delivered to the Navy.

The radar performance is classified, but it is acknowledged to have enough resolution to spot and destroy small and stealthy cruise missiles at ranges great enough to hit them before they can reach their targets.

The officials said there is an ongoing review of the release criteria on a country-by-country basis.

In an associated program, the Air Force has developed an AIM-120C-6 Amraam missile with a warhead tailored (via the quadrant target detection device) to strike small, slow targets (such as cruise missiles) head-on. That would also leave the attacking aircraft time to turn and make a second pass from behind the cruise missile without leaving its patrol area.

Officially, the Navy will only acknowledge that the AIM-120C and AIM-120D are being integrated into the aircraft and that with the AESA radar the aircraft will have "small-target detection capability," says Capt. Donald Gaddis, the program executive officer. "We'll have three times the detection ranges of APG-73 [the initial radar in the F/A-18E/Fs] at five times the [air-to-ground] resolution for SAR [synthetic aperture radar] mapping. If you think about those numbers and image correlation, what you've done is buy back long-range, through-the-weather, [precision] standoff targeting." .... ... ..

The AESA array is made up of thousands of transmitter/receiver modules that allow an agile beam to scan at near the speed of light. The radar also allows a two-man aircrew (in F/A-18Fs and EF-18Gs) to conduct simultaneous air-to-air and air-to-surface combat with independent dual-cockpit operations.

Gaddis also contends that the F/A-18E/F is largely free of congressional threats that might truncate the program. In fact, he suggests that it may be expanded if the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program's schedule slips.

The framework of the discussion now is that "we can't afford the [U.S. Air Force's] F/A-22 and JSF," Gaddis says. "The F-18 is in full-rate production, I'm on my second multi-year procurement and we're actually making contingency plans on a [third] multi-year as [the operational date] of JSF appears to get farther and farther into the out years."

Retrofits of the AESA radar to 135 older F/A-18E/Fs will begin in 2008. Eventually, 415 F/A-18E/Fs and EA-18Gs will be equipped with the APG-79. There also is an initiative to extend the life of operational F/A-18A to -D models beyond the design life of 6,000 flight hr. Gaddis said some aircraft are already approaching 8,000 hr. .. .. . . .

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Later, I will make more posts covering different points you have made.

for now few things are clear:

1) US offered pakistan just 25 F-16s. Pakistan rejected it.
2) Instead Pakistan requested 75 new planes and 11 used ones
3) And they are F-16 block 50/52.
4) US sold pakistan obsolete AIM-9M1/2 for $46 million dollars.

US sells equipments on country by country basis PROOF above article from AWST. And it is always significantly below the ones they use for themselves.

there is hiearchy for any **NEW** product they sell

1)USA gets the full 100% fit product.
2)Close to this will be britain if not 100%.

Other countries are somewhere down the ladder. And if pakistan gets anything from US it will be somewhere in the hiearchy.

Edited by airforcefan, 31 May 2005 - 05:47 PM.

[ISI2003]

Forget what air force enthusiasts say, the PAF top brass doesn't seem to be THAT enthusiastic with F-16, and would rather buy something else.

they want to limit the deal to 75 block 52+'s and the price will probably be 40 million each (greece decided to pay 42 million each, so as the planes are getting to be replaced, the price has gone down to 40 million each) so the total deal is 3 billion of which 1 billion will be paid for from us aid, so pakistan only pays 2 billion for these 75 block 52+ F-16

also the gov will get 150 jf-17 for 2.25 billion (so they plan to commit a total of 4.25 billion (same amount they wanted to commit to the gripens remeber back in 2004/2005)

finally they want another fourth genration plane and they need a plane that can take on the su-30mki and have an advantage from the begining and the only plane that can fill this role is the rafale, which PAF pilots have said they needed to counter the su-30mki

at about 4 billion for 48 rafales, we would be forfilling the need and have a decent defense for the next 20 years at least

so if we commit to this 8.25 billion we can modernize our entire air force with decent planes and have the capability to strie deep into india and therefore maintian deterence

[crazyinsane105]

I am not surprised that the PAF is not very happy with getting F-16's. However, the F-16's WILL come with the AMRAAM and Aim-120C. Now, Pakistan will have to do much convincing to get Washington to approve this deal (most likely PAF could threaten to cancel the entire order and go for another aircraft if Washington refuses this deal; something that Lockheed Martin doesn't want because that would mean thousands of thousands of jobs will be lost.) The other aircraft we will most likely get will be the Rafale and we can get it once the F3 version is out (the Saudis won't mind helping us out either). The Rafales can counter those Su-30MKI's while the other 4th generation aircraft we'll get will be the J-10 (it's cheap but high tech).

[ISI2003]

(the Saudis won't mind helping us out either). The Rafales can counter those Su-30MKI's while the other 4th generation aircraft we'll get will be the J-10 (it's cheap but high tech).

good post

saudi's have a requirement so we can package the deal and reduce the overall unit price, and get weapons in bulk

and after this if we need more planes we can go for 50 j-10's but most likely we will just get more jf-17's, because we don't want to have another type

[h177]

ISI,

I won't believe this F-16 block 52+ thing until you don't get me credible source that validates above claim. On the other hand it is more likely that Block 52+ will be offered to india. You will be surprised why i am saying that hence i have posted something for you.

I am gonna post something about Boeing's offer for India. Before you go ahead and read NOTE: this doesn't means that india is gonna get this fighter. Neither this means that India will get F-16 block 52+.

Infact you know, i know and all sensible people know including IAF that MRCA will be won by French Mirages. And india is gonna use this American offer to pressurize Dassault into a more favorable deal in terms of ToT and price. France is in state of shock ever since it lost $7billion deal to Boeing for Air India jets. This is also made Boeing happy and they being captilist want $9 billion allocated for MRCA fighter deal by MoD, India. Boeing's offer will drive LM to offer a F-16 with an AESA which will make it Block 52+.
Foreign Air Forces Eye the F/A-18E/F
Aviation Week & Space Technology 05/02/2005
David Fulghum Washington

Foreign air forces eye the F/A-18E/F while Navy officials prepare to buy more

Super Hornet vs. JSF

While celebrating delivery to the U.S. Navy of the first F/A-18E/Fs equipped with a stealth and small-target-detecting radar, Boeing officials said that Switzerland, Japan and India are looking at both the advanced fighter and some variant of its classified advanced radar for a future fighter purchase.

More surprisingly, Navy officials say they are planning for the possibility of their own additional fighter production because of the expectation, not yet confirmed, that operational introduction of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will slip.

"THERE WILL BE a competition [in Japan and India] for up to about 200 fighter airplanes," says Jim Albaugh, president and CEO of Boeing integrated defense systems. "We are considering [offering] the F-15 as well as the Super Hornet. We have been engaged in Japan trying to understand their requirements. We are getting engaged with India. Our customers' requirements will drive the offerings."

Boeing executives have said unofficially that the company is proposing a $53-million version of the Super Hornet for export. They believe there is a realistic chance of obtaining export license approval to sell the aircraft with some version of the new APG-79 active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar that is just now being delivered to the Navy.

The radar performance is classified, but it is acknowledged to have enough resolution to spot and destroy small and stealthy cruise missiles at ranges great enough to hit them before they can reach their targets.

The officials said there is an ongoing review of the release criteria on a country-by-country basis.

In an associated program, the Air Force has developed an AIM-120C-6 Amraam missile with a warhead tailored (via the quadrant target detection device) to strike small, slow targets (such as cruise missiles) head-on. That would also leave the attacking aircraft time to turn and make a second pass from behind the cruise missile without leaving its patrol area.

Officially, the Navy will only acknowledge that the AIM-120C and AIM-120D are being integrated into the aircraft and that with the AESA radar the aircraft will have "small-target detection capability," says Capt. Donald Gaddis, the program executive officer. "We'll have three times the detection ranges of APG-73 [the initial radar in the F/A-18E/Fs] at five times the [air-to-ground] resolution for SAR [synthetic aperture radar] mapping. If you think about those numbers and image correlation, what you've done is buy back long-range, through-the-weather, [precision] standoff targeting." .... ... ..

The AESA array is made up of thousands of transmitter/receiver modules that allow an agile beam to scan at near the speed of light. The radar also allows a two-man aircrew (in F/A-18Fs and EF-18Gs) to conduct simultaneous air-to-air and air-to-surface combat with independent dual-cockpit operations.

Gaddis also contends that the F/A-18E/F is largely free of congressional threats that might truncate the program. In fact, he suggests that it may be expanded if the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program's schedule slips.

The framework of the discussion now is that "we can't afford the [U.S. Air Force's] F/A-22 and JSF," Gaddis says. "The F-18 is in full-rate production, I'm on my second multi-year procurement and we're actually making contingency plans on a [third] multi-year as [the operational date] of JSF appears to get farther and farther into the out years."

Retrofits of the AESA radar to 135 older F/A-18E/Fs will begin in 2008. Eventually, 415 F/A-18E/Fs and EA-18Gs will be equipped with the APG-79. There also is an initiative to extend the life of operational F/A-18A to -D models beyond the design life of 6,000 flight hr. Gaddis said some aircraft are already approaching 8,000 hr. .. .. . . .

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Later, I will make more posts covering different points you have made.

for now few things are clear:

1) US offered pakistan just 25 F-16s. Pakistan rejected it.
2) Instead Pakistan requested 75 new planes and 11 used ones
3) And they are F-16 block 50/52.
4) US sold pakistan obsolete AIM-9M1/2 for $46 million dollars.

US sells equipments on country by country basis PROOF above article from AWST. And it is always significantly below the ones they use for themselves.

there is hiearchy for any **NEW** product they sell

1)USA gets the full 100% fit product.
2)Close to this will be britain if not 100%.

Other countries are somewhere down the ladder. And if pakistan gets anything from US it will be somewhere in the hiearchy.

it is not a proof of any official sell or purchase.
This is just a news item. just like US defence cooperation chief statement that PAF is seeking 86 fighter 75 new and 11 old. the the compostion will be made after money issue is resloved. he didnot ruled out F-16e but PAF doesnt want to spend money on it.
and what do u think dassualt officials are that stupid that they dont understand these things. they have clearly shown there displeasure through media and they might offer compromise technology to India in the end. just like they boycotted some other country in 1967. u never know French anger. they can stand up to US. (they supported China arm bid to take over taiwan despite US pressure).India is very small thing to them.

Come back when India gets its hands on something worthwhile Made in USA.

[airforcefan]

are you sure that all harpoons are air launched and has nothing to do with P-3C?
how can u be sure that $46m is wasted?
and US can give any name to a missile or number to the missile. Taiwan F-16s ar block 20 but they are the most advanced in Asia. It does not matter whether they use APG-66 or APG-68. it is the internal ECCM capability. US may felt that AIM-9M1 version will be good against what India has so they approve it. and it will not be the only approval in next 5 yeaqrs. it is a continous process.
and PAK has asked for prices of 75 F-16s. it is not final deal yet. alot of back and forth will happens in mean time.

Some time has passed and your style hasn't still changed much. When will your grow up ? Don't you realize that it is for this kind of reasoning "US can give any name to a missile or number to the missile" you were shipped out of AFM forum.
Why you become so desperate to get across your point that you have to resort to childish and actually stupid reasoning.

$46 million are wasted because of buying obsolete AIM-9M1/2 missile. Simple as that. Is it too difficult for you to understand that ?

But your point about harpoon for P3C orion is right. The result of all that back and forth activity we will see when congress is notified about the package deal.