549 replies to this topic

[Caesar]

Grow up fellows...you really need to accept opposing viewpoints. And As I have always pointed out to you...this is Not a Chinese forum....it is a Pakistani forum. Personally I support Pakistan-China alliance but I do not consider China an absolute Angle.

Now....stop being childish and concentrate on the topic....including the question I asked above, that is how do you propose China achieve quality standards in naval weaponary when these standards have been set by the West and when there is a tech and weapons ban on China for decades???

[sinodefender]

Grow up fellows...you really need to accept opposing viewpoints. And As I have always pointed out to you...this is Not a Chinese forum....it is a Pakistani forum. Personally I support Pakistan-China alliance but I do not consider China an absolute Angle.

Now....stop being childish and concentrate on the topic....including the question I asked above, that is how do you propose China achieve quality standards in naval weaponary when these standards have been set by the West and when there is a tech and weapons ban on China for decades???

then you should grow up urself and take ur own suggestions seriously.

who said that naval standards are set by the west?

what the world is like today has nothing to do with what it will be like tomorrow.

100 years ago, japan also copied everything from the west, and they became a great power. 1500 years, they copied the entire system from china, and today's japanese culture was born from chinese culture.

500 years ago, when china had the largest fleet in the world, the west had small ships equipped with very bad cannons (relatively speaking) compared to china's treasure ships each equipping with over 250 cannons.
things change.

we had our time, and the west copied from us.

you had urs.

and it will be ours again.

when you have the largest economy in the world, it's hard not to be miitarily powerful. it does not matter whethere there is any ban or saunction.

the saunction imposed on china was initialed in 1989 after the tinanmen incident. and throughout these years, china's technology did not stop advancing but it advanced at a rate higher than most other countries. enough said about the saunction.

to answer your question of how:

just keep doing what they are doing.

[penguin]

when you have a good amount of most advanced ships in asia and the technology and productivity to produce a lot of them, you are the most powerful navy.

quantity doesn't equal power. quality is.

china should focus on quality instead of quantity.

2020 is just 13 years away. Look what modern ships there are in PLAN today. Most of these are still developmental. 13 years just is not enough time to create the best navy in Asia for China.

[Archangelesk99]

2020 is just 13 years away. Look what modern ships there are in PLAN today. Most of these are still developmental. 13 years just is not enough time to create the best navy in Asia for China.

13 years ago, 1994, China didn't have much 'modern' stuff and economy was much smaller.  
Now?  
Her economy will be almost 3X what it is now by 2020.  Enough said         

[Admiral]

2020 is just 13 years away. Look what modern ships there are in PLAN today. Most of these are still developmental. 13 years just is not enough time to create the best navy in Asia for China.

Lets see:

Chinese Navy
1994:

2 Luhu DDGs, dozens of Ludas, 30+ Jianghu frigates, 50+ Mings/Romeos. The Xia SSBN was considered the pride of the PLAN.

The navy then used old Silkworm missiles and its AAW was poor, with only manuel anti-aircraft guns and HQ-7.

2007:

4 Sovs, 4 Luyang I/II, 2 Type 51C, Luhai, 3 Type 54/A frigates, 14 Jiangwei frigates, 14 Songs/Yuan subs, 12 Kilos, Type 93 and Type 94 nuclear submarines.

The navy now uses Yj-83, SS-N-22, SS-N-27, YJ-62 as its AshM, HQ-9/S-300F installed for longer ranged AAW.

In 1994, China's economy was at 900 billion in Nominal terms, now its at 2.6 trillion.

[Caesar]

Lets see:

Chinese Navy
1994:

2 Luhu DDGs, dozens of Ludas, 30+ Jianghu frigates, 50+ Mings/Romeos. The Xia SSBN was considered the pride of the PLAN.

The navy then used old Silkworm missiles and its AAW was poor, with only manuel anti-aircraft guns and HQ-7.

2007:

4 Sovs, 4 Luyang I/II, 2 Type 51C, Luhai, 3 Type 54/A frigates, 14 Jiangwei frigates, 14 Songs/Yuan subs, 12 Kilos, Type 93 and Type 94 nuclear submarines.

The navy now uses Yj-83, SS-N-22, SS-N-27, YJ-62 as its AshM, HQ-9/S-300F installed for longer ranged AAW.

Most of this stuff is not considered to be modern by Western standards as many are modeled after 20 to 30 year-old Russian designs which are alreay lagging by western standards!!

The submarines units are also considered lagging behind Western standards. Most weapons and sensor systems are based on older Russian technology. Hull quieting remains a major problem on the indigenously produced Ming and Song class subs clearly indicating failure of indigenous Ming and Song designs. Acoustic systems are two to three generations behind the world's first-line navies. Taking this into consideration PLAN is not yet a significant regional naval power. PLAN  lacks the sophisticated weapons and sensor systems of the first-line naval units and standards of navies of Japan, the Republic of Korea, or even Taiwan.

[Archangelesk99]

Lets see:

Chinese Navy
1994:

2 Luhu DDGs, dozens of Ludas, 30+ Jianghu frigates, 50+ Mings/Romeos. The Xia SSBN was considered the pride of the PLAN.

The navy then used old Silkworm missiles and its AAW was poor, with only manuel anti-aircraft guns and HQ-7.

2007:

4 Sovs, 4 Luyang I/II, 2 Type 51C, Luhai, 3 Type 54/A frigates, 14 Jiangwei frigates, 14 Songs/Yuan subs, 12 Kilos, Type 93 and Type 94 nuclear submarines.

The navy now uses Yj-83, SS-N-22, SS-N-27, YJ-62 as its AshM, HQ-9/S-300F installed for longer ranged AAW.

In 1994, China's economy was at 900 billion in Nominal terms, now its at 2.6 trillion.

Precisely. china's fleet now is more than enough to safeguard her waters. land invasion of china cannot be done even by a combined coalition, too much defences.  I think china should focus on one more generation of navy ships before commencing fullscale production of 20 ships of each type. It will ensure no one tries to bully her by threatening her allies or assets halfway around the world

Most of this stuff is not considered to be modern by Western standards as many are modeled after 20 to 30 year-old Russian designs which are alreay lagging by western standards!!

The submarines units are also considered lagging behind Western standards. Most weapons and sensor systems are based on older Russian technology. Hull quieting remains a major problem on the indigenously produced Ming and Song class subs clearly indicating failure of indigenous Ming and Song designs. Acoustic systems are two to three generations behind the world's first-line navies. Taking this into consideration PLAN is not yet a significant regional naval power. PLAN  lacks the sophisticated weapons and sensor systems of the first-line naval units and standards of navies of Japan, the Republic of Korea, or even Taiwan.

   poor guy, he's getting more and more desperate.  China's already a regional power. welcome to reality

[Caesar]

...poor guy, he's getting more and more desperate.  China's already a regional power. welcome to reality

yawn...........snooze........  

[kmc]

Indian Navy To Celebrate INS Viraat's 20th Anniversary
Virat

Russian Shipyard To Float Upgraded Indian Navy Kilo Class Submarine
Kilos Upgradation

India, Italy to Push for Joint Ventures in Defense Production
India, Italy JV in Defense Production

[JET_Flash]

Indian Navy To Celebrate INS Viraat's 20th Anniversary
Virat

Russian Shipyard To Float Upgraded Indian Navy Kilo Class Submarine
Kilos Upgradation

India, Italy to Push for Joint Ventures in Defense Production
India, Italy JV in Defense Production

buddy... India defense link don't work here...

[kmc]

JETFLASH
buddy... India defense link don't work here...

      

[sinodefender]

Most of this stuff is not considered to be modern by Western standards as many are modeled after 20 to 30 year-old Russian designs which are alreay lagging by western standards!!

The submarines units are also considered lagging behind Western standards. Most weapons and sensor systems are based on older Russian technology. Hull quieting remains a major problem on the indigenously produced Ming and Song class subs clearly indicating failure of indigenous Ming and Song designs. Acoustic systems are two to three generations behind the world's first-line navies. Taking this into consideration PLAN is not yet a significant regional naval power. PLAN  lacks the sophisticated weapons and sensor systems of the first-line naval units and standards of navies of Japan, the Republic of Korea, or even Taiwan.

according to you, maybe.

the chinese use sunburn supersonic antiship missles, and that's the best and most lethal antiship cruise missle in the world. china and russia are the only nations in the world that can produce supersonic antiship cruise missles. it gives the usn only 2.5 seconds to react after detecting the approaching sunburn, which is simply not enough time. so all western ships are defenseless when it comes to sunburn.

do u not know any military knowledge at all?

the 054c is in the same class as the us ageis destroyers, and there's surely nothing in the austrilian navy that can match it.

yuen class is by no mean behind western standards. again, there's nothing in asia that can match it including australia.

kilo class.

094, 093, they are all top of the line submarines by any standards.

plus, china will have the best ability to sustain a war in asia with its largest economy.

[penguin]

13 years ago, 1994, China didn't have much 'modern' stuff and economy was much smaller.  
Now?  
Her economy will be almost 3X what it is now by 2020.  Enough said         

China still doesn't have much modern stuff (as compared to, say, the Japanese MSDF) and it simply takes time to design, build and train up to become the best Asian navy, economy notwithstanding..

Lets see:

Chinese Navy
1994:

2 Luhu DDGs, dozens of Ludas, 30+ Jianghu frigates, 50+ Mings/Romeos. The Xia SSBN was considered the pride of the PLAN.

The navy then used old Silkworm missiles and its AAW was poor, with only manuel anti-aircraft guns and HQ-7.

2007:

4 Sovs, 4 Luyang I/II, 2 Type 51C, Luhai, 3 Type 54/A frigates, 14 Jiangwei frigates, 14 Songs/Yuan subs, 12 Kilos, Type 93 and Type 94 nuclear submarines.

The navy now uses Yj-83, SS-N-22, SS-N-27, YJ-62 as its AshM, HQ-9/S-300F installed for longer ranged AAW.

In 1994, China's economy was at 900 billion in Nominal terms, now its at 2.6 trillion.

Let's see, Japenese MSDF

1995

17 SSK (with heavyweight torpedoes, sub-harpoon)
Harushio Class - 7 (first commissioned 1990)
Yushio Class - 10 (first commissioned 1980)

61 major surface combattants, of which

24 DD (general purpose destroyers, with 76mm gun, Phalanx CIWS, Sparrow, Asroc, Harpoon, ASW torpedoes, SH3/SH60 helo)
Asagiri class - 8 (1st commissioned 1988)
HATSUYUKI class - 12 (1st commissioned 1982)
Takatsuki Class - 4 (1st commisioned 1967, no helo's)

4 DDH (Helicopter destroyer, with 127mm gun, Phalanx CIWS, Sparrow, Asroc, Harpoon, ASW torpedoes, 3 SH3/SH60 helo)
Shirane class - 2 (1st commisioned 1980)
Haruna class - 2 (1st commissioned 1973)

6 DDK (Anti Submarine Destroyer, with 76mm guns, Asroc, and ASW torpedoes)
Minegumo class - 3 (1st commisioned 1968)
Yamagumo class - 3 (1st commisioned 1966)

7 DDG (Guided Missile Destroyer) with 127mm guns, Phalanx CIWS, Asroc, Harpoon, ASW torpedoes, Standard SM1
Kongo class - 2 (1st commisioned 1993, AEGIS, VLS with Standard SM2, Asroc)
Hatakaze class - 2 (1st commissioned 1986)
Tachikaze class - 3 (1st commisioned 1976)

20 DE (escort Vessels: large corvettes / small frigates)
Abukuma Class - 6 (first commisioned 1989, with 76mm gun Phalanx CIWS, Harpoon, ASROC and prepared for RAM)
Yubari Class - 2 (first commisioned 1983, with 76mm gun Phalanx CIWS, Harpoon, no ASROC but Bofors RL ASW)
Ishikari Class - 1 (first commisioned 1981, with 76mm gun Phalanx CIWS, Harpoon, no ASROC but Bofors RL ASW)
Chikugo Class - 11 (first commisioned 1970, with 76mm & 40mm guns, ASROC, ASW torpedoes)


2010

20 SSK (with heavyweight torpedoes, sub-harpoon)
new class - 1 (first is to be commisioned 2009)
Oyashio Class - 11 (first commisioned 1998)
Harushio Class - 6 (first commissioned 1990)
Yushio Class - 2 (first commissioned 1980)

52 major surface combattants, of which

31 DD (general purpose destroyers, with 76mm gun, Phalanx CIWS, Sparrow, Asroc, Harpoon, ASW torpedoes, SH3/SH60 helo)
Takanami class - 5 (1st commissioned 2003, revised edition of Murasame class, mk 41 VLS, ESSM 127mm gun)
Murasame class - 9 (1st commissioned 1996,SSM-1B instead of Harpoon, Mk 48 VLS)  
Asagiri class - 6 (1st commissioned 1988)
HATSUYUKI class - 11 (1st commissioned 1982)

4 DDH (Helicopter destroyer, with 127mm gun, Phalanx CIWS, Sparrow, Asroc, Harpoon, ASW torpedoes, 3 SH3/SH60 helo)
DDH16 class - 2 (first to be commisioned 2009, flattop, Phalanx, MK41/ESSM, ASW torpedoes, 3 SH60, 1 MCH-101)
Shirane class - 2 (1st commisioned 1980)

8 DDG (Guided Missile Destroyer) with 127mm guns, Phalanx CIWS, Asroc, Harpoon, ASW torpedoes, Standard SM1
Improved Kongo-class (1st to commision in 2007) a revised edition of Kongo class (Flight 2 Burke/AEGIS)
Kongo class - 4 (1st commisioned 1993, Burke/AEGIS, VLS with Standard SM2, Asroc)
Hatakaze class - 2 (1st commissioned 1986)

9 DE (escort Vessels: large corvettes / small frigates)
Abukuma Class - 6 (first commisioned 1989, with 76mm gun Phalanx CIWS, Harpoon, ASROC and prepared for RAM)
Yubari Class - 2 (first commisioned 1983, with 76mm gun Phalanx CIWS, Harpoon, no ASROC but Bofors RL ASW)
Ishikari Class - 1 (first commisioned 1981, with 76mm gun Phalanx CIWS, Harpoon, no ASROC but Bofors RL ASW)

Naval Aviation:
80 odd P-3 Orion MPA
70 SH60J a.k.a. S-70B-3

When discussing values of economies, please include what currency or PPP, in what year, whether or not  constant etc. otherwise apples/oranges.  

Rank Country GDP (purchasing power parity) 2006 est.
1 World  $ 65,000,000,000,000  
2 United States  $ 12,980,000,000,000  
3 European Union  $ 12,820,000,000,000  
4 China  $ 10,000,000,000,000  
5 Japan  $ 4,220,000,000,000  
6 India  $ 4,042,000,000,000  
7 Germany  $ 2,585,000,000,000  
8 United Kingdom  $ 1,903,000,000,000  
9 France  $ 1,871,000,000,000  
10 Italy  $ 1,727,000,000,000

Rank Country GDP - per capita (PPP)  Date of Information
1 Bermuda  $ 69,900  2004 est.  
2 Luxembourg  $ 68,800  2006 est.  
3 Jersey  $ 57,000  2005 est.  
4 Equatorial Guinea  $ 50,200  2005 est.  
5 United Arab Emirates  $ 49,700  2006 est.  
6 Norway  $ 47,800  2006 est.  
7 Guernsey  $ 44,600  2005  
8 Cayman Islands  $ 43,800  2004 est.  
9 Ireland  $ 43,600  2006 est.  
10 United States  $ 43,500  2006 est.  
21 Japan  $ 33,100  2006 est.
109 China  $ 7,600  2006 est.  

[penguin]

according to you, maybe.

the chinese use sunburn supersonic antiship missles, and that's the best and most lethal antiship cruise missle in the world. china and russia are the only nations in the world that can produce supersonic antiship cruise missles. it gives the usn only 2.5 seconds to react after detecting the approaching sunburn, which is simply not enough time. so all western ships are defenseless when it comes to sunburn.

do u not know any military knowledge at all?

the 054c is in the same class as the us ageis destroyers, and there's surely nothing in the austrilian navy that can match it.

yuen class is by no mean behind western standards. again, there's nothing in asia that can match it including australia.

kilo class.

094, 093, they are all top of the line submarines by any standards.

plus, china will have the best ability to sustain a war in asia with its largest economy.

"china and russia are the only nations in the world that can produce supersonic antiship cruise missles."
Rubbish, it is not a matter of not being able, but of not having chosen to do so. US, UK and France have all made supersonic attack missiles. Just not in recent times. Even Taiwan apparently made a supersonic AShM (Hsiung Feng III, a supersonic missile developed by CSIST, was test-fired in early 1998)
http://www.spacedaily.com/news/missiles-04zza.html
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/france/bomber/asmp.htm
http://www.janes.com/aerospace/military/ne...20507_1_n.shtml

Sunburn, IIRC, has a range about 60 miles. It can't take evasive maneuvers in its entire flight path, or the range would be drastically reduced. The keys to Sunburn defense are (1) destroy the launchers before they launch and (2) engage any launched missile at long range and 3) don't depend on the last-ditch CIWS but use missiles like RAM and ESSM, 4) use surveillance platforms well. Remember, the higher the radar antenna, the more it can see. Radar planes are very usefull in providing early warning well before the missile can acquire its target.

The effective range of the RAM missile is 11 miles. RAM or SeaRam can augment or replace Phalanx systems on a one for one basis. The Block 1 upgrade program was successfully completed in August 1999 with a series of operational tests to demonstrate the system's introduction maturity. In 10 scenarios, real Anti-Ship Missiles and supersonic Vandal target missiles (Mach 2.5) were intercepted and destroyed under realistic conditions. RAM Block 1 achieved first-shot kills on every target in its presented scenarios, including sea-skimming, diving and highly maneuvering profiles in both single and stream attacks.
http://navysite.de/launcher/ram.htm

There is no 054C. Only 054, 054A, 052, 052B and 052C. It is yet  to be proven that 052C, while a giant leap forward for PLAN, actually is in the same league as USN's Ticonderoga and Arleigh Burke AEGIS ships. Likewise, we know too little about Yuan, 093 en 094 to be able to support the statement that they are top of the line by any standards. And, remember, when employed under the right conditions, modern SSKs are a threat even to modern US and Russian SS(B)Ns

[Caesar]

according to you, maybe.

the chinese use sunburn supersonic antiship missles, and that's the best and most lethal antiship cruise missle in the world. china and russia are the only nations in the world that can produce supersonic antiship cruise missles. it gives the usn only 2.5 seconds to react after detecting the approaching sunburn, which is simply not enough time. so all western ships are defenseless when it comes to sunburn.

do u not know any military knowledge at all?

the 054c is in the same class as the us ageis destroyers, and there's surely nothing in the austrilian navy that can match it.

yuen class is by no mean behind western standards. again, there's nothing in asia that can match it including australia.

kilo class.

094, 093, they are all top of the line submarines by any standards.

plus, china will have the best ability to sustain a war in asia with its largest economy.

It's getting so boring....yawn.........anyway

Taiwan test fires anti-ship cruise missile - Report
URL of this article:
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/
Jan 7, 2005, 23:15
Taiwan has successfully test-fired its Hsiung Feng III supersonic anti-ship missile in a major military technology breakthrough expected to beef up the island’s defense capabilities against rival China, it was reported here Jan. 7.

The Taipei-based China Times cited defense sources as saying the military-run Chung-Shan Institute of Science and Technology had conducted “more than one” test-firing for the new missile after a decade-long development.

It said the first test was held in November in southern Taiwan, following several failures in the past two years due to engine problems.

Hsiung Feng III is believed to outperform China’s Russia-made SS-N-22 Sunburn supersonic anti-ship missile, the report said.

It said the missile, with a range of 300 kilometers (186 miles), was likely to be deployed along Taiwan’s eastern coast or offshore islands.

The defense ministry declined to comment on the report.

According to a report in Jane’s Defense Weekly last year, Hsiung Feng III’s propulsion system compromises a ramjet engine with a solid-fuel rocket booster.

The supersonic vehicle can be fitted with a variety of guidance systems and function as an anti-ship, land-attack or anti-radar missile.

Taiwan is striving to boost its missile defense capabilities to counter the military threat from China, which officials said is targeting the island with some 600 ballistic missiles.

In June, the cabinet approved a special budget of 610.8 billion Taiwan dollars ($18.2 billion) to purchase weaponry from Washington over a 15-year period starting in 2005.

The arms package, pending final approval by parliament, includes eight conventional submarines, a modified version of the Patriot anti-missile system and a fleet of anti-submarine aircraft.

The massive budget proposal has stirred heated debate on the island as critics said the spending could further provoke China and heighten cross-strait tensions.

[vvvaidya29]

according to you, maybe.

the chinese use sunburn supersonic antiship missles, and that's the best and most lethal antiship cruise missle in the world. china and russia are the only nations in the world that can produce supersonic antiship cruise missles. it gives the usn only 2.5 seconds to react after detecting the approaching sunburn, which is simply not enough time. so all western ships are defenseless when it comes to sunburn.

sunburn is one hell of a missile and it will give USN 2.5 seconds to react,agreed....but whats the use if USN will not let even have 1.5 seconds to sunburn launching platform to lanuch the sunburn????do u really belive that USN will just conventionally float its ships in front of chinese ships to get hit by sunburn???big NO NO....do I need to explain u abt USN's satelite surveillance,seawolf/LA class subs,state of an art early warning platforms,Ageis systems,MAD ASW warfare,network centric functionalities and air based anti ship attack platforms like SH's???so no...USN is not defenceless infront of any cruise missile.....china is big power and future super power no doubt but USA is one sleeping Vampire and attacking taiwan means waking up the sleeping Vampire...when vampire bites a person then that victim person starts behaving like vampire...now see how iraqi and afgani govts. are behaving.....they have draculla (vampire) bite on their necks...

[PakSniper786]

sunburn is one hell of a missile and it will give USN 2.5 seconds to react,agreed....but whats the use if USN will not let even have 1.5 seconds to sunburn launching platform to lanuch the sunburn????do u really belive that USN will just conventionally float its ships in front of chinese ships to get hit by sunburn???big NO NO....do I need to explain u abt USN's satelite surveillance,seawolf/LA class subs,state of an art early warning platforms,Ageis systems,MAD ASW warfare,network centric functionalities and air based anti ship attack platforms like SH's???so no...USN is not defenceless infront of any cruise missile.....china is big power and future super power no doubt but USA is one sleeping Vampire and attacking taiwan means waking up the sleeping Vampire...when vampire bites a person then that victim person starts behaving like vampire...now see how iraqi and afgani govts. are behaving.....they have draculla (vampire) bite on their necks...

        

Way to go on summing up USAs useless war.

[harrypotter]

Lets see:

Chinese Navy
1994:

2 Luhu DDGs, dozens of Ludas, 30+ Jianghu frigates, 50+ Mings/Romeos. The Xia SSBN was considered the pride of the PLAN.

The navy then used old Silkworm missiles and its AAW was poor, with only manuel anti-aircraft guns and HQ-7.

2007:

4 Sovs, 4 Luyang I/II, 2 Type 51C, Luhai, 3 Type 54/A frigates, 14 Jiangwei frigates, 14 Songs/Yuan subs, 12 Kilos, Type 93 and Type 94 nuclear submarines.

The navy now uses Yj-83, SS-N-22, SS-N-27, YJ-62 as its AshM, HQ-9/S-300F installed for longer ranged AAW.

In 1994, China's economy was at 900 billion in Nominal terms, now its at 2.6 trillion.

I dont even think China's economy was 900 billion in 1994, because it achieve the 1000 billion in 1998, therefore i think in 1994, its economy must be much smaller than that number 900.

You can check it out from this link, that table shows that China's economy cross the mark 1000 billions only in 1998 (31/12/1998)

http://www.rediff.com/money/2007/apr/26india.htm

[Archangelesk99]

sunburn is one hell of a missile and it will give USN 2.5 seconds to react,agreed....but whats the use if USN will not let even have 1.5 seconds to sunburn launching platform to lanuch the sunburn????do u really belive that USN will just conventionally float its ships in front of chinese ships to get hit by sunburn???big NO NO....do I need to explain u abt USN's satelite surveillance,seawolf/LA class subs,state of an art early warning platforms,Ageis systems,MAD ASW warfare,network centric functionalities and air based anti ship attack platforms like SH's???so no...USN is not defenceless infront of any cruise missile.....china is big power and future super power no doubt but USA is one sleeping Vampire and attacking taiwan means waking up the sleeping Vampire...when vampire bites a person then that victim person starts behaving like vampire...now see how iraqi and afgani govts. are behaving.....they have draculla (vampire) bite on their necks...

you've been watching too much cnn while living in india     contrary to what you hear on news, usa is using everything in its arsenal in Iraq and still getting beaten handily by a people who have basically nothing to work with.  I think the harsh beating they got in vietnam sort of messed them up for generations    Just like afghanistan war did to USSR soldiers.  Defeating a country versus controlling its people are 2 very different things. the latter thing is nearly impossible to do in history.

[harrypotter]

Guys, i am not a troll. But i think caesar really has a critical and realistic thinking. Seriously, China is still a developing country, its technology is still behind the west. You guys need to have critical thinking, think realistically, China nowadays need to learn a lot from the west technology, Yes China had her glorious time back in the old days but time has changed now. What china needs to do now is to eradicate corruption, so that the R&D budget will not go to the hands of the corrupted. I believe China now is working very hard on this anti corruption policy. Secondly, she needs to focus more on tech innovation, and start develop things indigenously. I dont understand why the communist government still "obtain" hi-tech from America through the mean of espionage. 13 years sound quite short but if China really has the determination.Learning or buying technologies from western countries is not really a bad thing in the end of the day. Even Japan had to learn technology from the west pre-WW2, post-WW2, during economic development and look where they are now. I dont see anything wrong with learning and buying (not stealing) tech from the west, but some of you here are very sensitive to this kind of thing.God, some of you really need to face it, China is still a developing country and its tech is still behind some western countries including America. Keep your head down, be humble, work hard . I hope Chinese posters here can still remember that old saying of Deng. If you can do that then China will shine like a star in this century.

Thank you for reading

China is mainly a developing country though we have the 2nd largest R&D money and that money had been wasted by corrupted officers.The Chinese have an IQ below world's top 200 so our scientists are hopeless.Usually China is too much depending on foreign techs and we had built Chinese missiles/nuclear bombs/submarines/.....only becasue we're too lucky. We are the NO.2 or NO.3 exporting country(soon NO.1) of the world but most of our industrial products are junks.Wait,why do you Dutch or Austrilan had bought so much Chinese junks?Because Chinese junk is cheaper than your owns?
   Conclusion :China is hopeless.11% GDP growth is not as good as 1.1%,15% anual R&D money growth is wasted and Chinese scientists are the most stupid and lazy pepole of the world.
   Who is the most powerful Asian Navy in 2020? New Zerlland if it's an Asian country.Since Chinese only make junks,I,a native Chinese, post some pieces of junks to relaxe and comfort your guys .Thank you.     

PS:Usually it's the US which has an embargo to China.We're still lucky to get something from Isrel,French,Germany.....even England.

Are u out of your mind ?? I hope that you are being sarcastic. Chinese are stupid ??? LOL check out the IQ statistics again please mate

You need to remember that China's economy only started to grow in the 1980s, so her industrialization is still nowhere (only 20 years so far) , how can you expect a country to produce high quality stuff, high tech stuff like that of the west, an economy that was totally messed up by communism and Mao, it only started to recover i would say more than 20 years ago, China economic development is still young i would say, there is long way to go. China aimed to finish the industrialization by 2015 (but i doubt that it will keep going until 2020 or beyond that). But China is growing extremely fast, who knows what China will look like in the next 20 years (or year 2020), heck China total economy in the 1980 was only about $77 billion (GDP per capita was only about $44 ) and look at it now $10 trillions (PPP), $2.7 trillions (nominal), and GDP per capita of $2034 (nominal)  ($8000 PPP). So imagine China in the next 20 years.

[zhou]

Guys, i am not a troll. But i think caesar really has a critical and realistic thinking. Seriously, China is still a developing country, its technology is still behind the west. You guys need to have critical thinking, think realistically, China nowadays need to learn a lot from the west technology, Yes China had her glorious time back in the old days but time has changed now. What china needs to do now is to eradicate corruption, so that the R&D budget will not go to the hands of the corrupted. I believe China now is working very hard on this anti corruption policy. Secondly, she needs to focus more on tech innovation, and start develop things indigenously. I dont understand why the communist government still "obtain" hi-tech from America through the mean of espionage. 13 years sound quite short but if China really has the determination.Learning or buying technologies from western countries is not really a bad thing in the end of the day. Even Japan had to learn technology from the west pre-WW2, post-WW2, during economic development and look where they are now. I dont see anything wrong with learning and buying (not stealing) tech from the west, but some of you here are very sensitive to this kind of thing.God, some of you really need to face it, China is still a developing country and its tech is still behind some western countries including America. Keep your head down, be humble, work hard . I hope Chinese posters here can still remember that old saying of Deng. If you can do that then China will shine like a star in this century.

Thank you for reading
Are u out of your mind ?? I hope that you are being sarcastic. Chinese are stupid ??? LOL check out the IQ statistics again please mate

You need to remember that China's economy only started to grow in the 1980s, so her industrialization is still nowhere (only 20 years so far) , how can you expect a country to produce high quality stuff, high tech stuff like that of the west, an economy that was totally messed up by communism and Mao, it only started to recover i would say more than 20 years ago, China economic development is still young i would say, there is long way to go. China aimed to finish the industrialization by 2015 (but i doubt that it will keep going until 2020 or beyond that). But China is growing extremely fast, who knows what China will look like in the next 20 years (or year 2020), heck China total economy in the 1980 was only about $77 billion (GDP per capita was only about $44 ) and look at it now $10 trillions (PPP), $2.7 trillions (nominal), and GDP per capita of $2034 (nominal)  ($8000 PPP). So imagine China in the next 20 years.

  Potter,China's industrilzation and moderation had started from 1952-1953 after the Korea war.USSR had helped new China to build the industy.Unfortunatelly this process had been interrupted by Chinese internal fighting,for example,ten years cultural revelotion from 1966-1976.But China had still built the basic social and industial systems before Deng Xiao-ping's reform in 1978.You can't say you're full becuase of the 10th piece of bread and the before nine pieces of bread you eaten are useless.
  I think pepole here are no dout of China's economic achievments which is the base of a stong army.China's economy had continued growing with an average 9.8% speed for almost thirty years(1978-2006) and pepole there are talking about another thirty years'  high speed growth if the world keeps peace in the future.
  For the tech lag between PLA and the west,PLA had itselves evaluation.The PLA believed that it was average  15-20 years behind the US military power and in some areas it's 30+ years behind,for example,the Chinese jet engine may far behind US' since jet engine represends a country's industial ability.
  The question here is does China have the ability to decrease the tech lag?My answer is 100% sure if Chinese economy and military grow with current speed.Frankly speaking,science and technology=scientific tradition+scientist+R&D money.The west countries have a huge scientific traditional advantage against China since they were the leaders of every fields and if you had continued working in some areas for hundreds of years,nobody could challenge you.For the scientists and R&D money,do you need a comparison of IQ and stastics?We're behind but never behind.Another advantage China has is that China needn't to invent everything.China could import the techs though it's not the latest and it will be the base to better one.
  It's no need to explain who is the best Asian navy and we're all brain-washed after being born in certain country.We're taught to believe something when we're a child and it's difficult to change your mind.Do you notice that it's the Indians and some half-whites are so eager to such kind of thread like China VS US and China VS west. If the Indians and some half-whites believe something,let them be!!!!Thanks god,most Chinese are used to work more and speak less or the world will have too much noisy.

For world peace!

[vvvaidya29]

you've been watching too much cnn while living in india     contrary to what you hear on news, usa is using everything in its arsenal in Iraq and still getting beaten handily by a people who have basically nothing to work with.  I think the harsh beating they got in vietnam sort of messed them up for generations    Just like afghanistan war did to USSR soldiers.  Defeating a country versus controlling its people are 2 very different things. the latter thing is nearly impossible to do in history.

it seems that u guys just dont know the diffrence between head on war and a gurilla war....in head on war no entity (including india,purposely saying india so that u guys dont feel that im making fun of china here) in this world can challange america...they fought head on war against iraq and afganistan and they got what they wanted...they still control the region....now if gurilla warfare is giving them trouble it doesnt mean that they are using everything and getting beaten...its gurilla war..as simple as that.....send chinese troops in iraq and we will see what miracle chinese forces will do against gurilla war...dont come always with some stupid gurilla war stories.and who is saying USA wants to control china...they will only defend taiwan...and they can do it very well,now gulp this bitter potion and live with it...

[Archangelesk99]

it seems that u guys just dont know the diffrence between head on war and a gurilla war....in head on war no entity (including india,purposely saying india so that u guys dont feel that im making fun of china here) in this world can challange america...they fought head on war against iraq and afganistan and they got what they wanted...they still control the region....now if gurilla warfare is giving them trouble it doesnt mean that they are using everything and getting beaten...its gurilla war..as simple as that.....send chinese troops in iraq and we will see what miracle chinese forces will do against gurilla war...dont come always with some stupid gurilla war stories.and who is saying USA wants to control china...they will only defend taiwan...and they can do it very well,now gulp this bitter potion and live with it...

what do you mean head on? When a 50 kg man fights a 150 kg man does he fight him head on?  No.  He goes for his weak points like joints.  It's about skill and bravery finally.  And vietnamese, Iraqis have proven far more brave and skillful.  Vietnam thrashed American military and Iraqis are thrashing them again.  And finally who wins is what matters.  Yes, go fight a man twice your size 'head on' and see how long you last.      Ignore this illogical idiot.  Case closed.

[Admiral]

China still doesn't have much modern stuff (as compared to, say, the Japanese MSDF) and it simply takes time to design, build and train up to become the best Asian navy, economy notwithstanding..
Let's see, Japenese MSDF

1995

17 SSK (with heavyweight torpedoes, sub-harpoon)
Harushio Class - 7 (first commissioned 1990)
Yushio Class - 10 (first commissioned 1980)

61 major surface combattants, of which

24 DD (general purpose destroyers, with 76mm gun, Phalanx CIWS, Sparrow, Asroc, Harpoon, ASW torpedoes, SH3/SH60 helo)
Asagiri class - 8 (1st commissioned 1988)
HATSUYUKI class - 12 (1st commissioned 1982)
Takatsuki Class - 4 (1st commisioned 1967, no helo's)

4 DDH (Helicopter destroyer, with 127mm gun, Phalanx CIWS, Sparrow, Asroc, Harpoon, ASW torpedoes, 3 SH3/SH60 helo)
Shirane class - 2 (1st commisioned 1980)
Haruna class - 2 (1st commissioned 1973)

6 DDK (Anti Submarine Destroyer, with 76mm guns, Asroc, and ASW torpedoes)
Minegumo class - 3 (1st commisioned 1968)
Yamagumo class - 3 (1st commisioned 1966)

7 DDG (Guided Missile Destroyer) with 127mm guns, Phalanx CIWS, Asroc, Harpoon, ASW torpedoes, Standard SM1
Kongo class - 2 (1st commisioned 1993, AEGIS, VLS with Standard SM2, Asroc)
Hatakaze class - 2 (1st commissioned 1986)
Tachikaze class - 3 (1st commisioned 1976)

20 DE (escort Vessels: large corvettes / small frigates)
Abukuma Class - 6 (first commisioned 1989, with 76mm gun Phalanx CIWS, Harpoon, ASROC and prepared for RAM)
Yubari Class - 2 (first commisioned 1983, with 76mm gun Phalanx CIWS, Harpoon, no ASROC but Bofors RL ASW)
Ishikari Class - 1 (first commisioned 1981, with 76mm gun Phalanx CIWS, Harpoon, no ASROC but Bofors RL ASW)
Chikugo Class - 11 (first commisioned 1970, with 76mm & 40mm guns, ASROC, ASW torpedoes)
2010

20 SSK (with heavyweight torpedoes, sub-harpoon)
new class - 1 (first is to be commisioned 2009)
Oyashio Class - 11 (first commisioned 1998)
Harushio Class - 6 (first commissioned 1990)
Yushio Class - 2 (first commissioned 1980)

52 major surface combattants, of which

31 DD (general purpose destroyers, with 76mm gun, Phalanx CIWS, Sparrow, Asroc, Harpoon, ASW torpedoes, SH3/SH60 helo)
Takanami class - 5 (1st commissioned 2003, revised edition of Murasame class, mk 41 VLS, ESSM 127mm gun)
Murasame class - 9 (1st commissioned 1996,SSM-1B instead of Harpoon, Mk 48 VLS)  
Asagiri class - 6 (1st commissioned 1988)
HATSUYUKI class - 11 (1st commissioned 1982)

4 DDH (Helicopter destroyer, with 127mm gun, Phalanx CIWS, Sparrow, Asroc, Harpoon, ASW torpedoes, 3 SH3/SH60 helo)
DDH16 class - 2 (first to be commisioned 2009, flattop, Phalanx, MK41/ESSM, ASW torpedoes, 3 SH60, 1 MCH-101)
Shirane class - 2 (1st commisioned 1980)

8 DDG (Guided Missile Destroyer) with 127mm guns, Phalanx CIWS, Asroc, Harpoon, ASW torpedoes, Standard SM1
Improved Kongo-class (1st to commision in 2007) a revised edition of Kongo class (Flight 2 Burke/AEGIS)
Kongo class - 4 (1st commisioned 1993, Burke/AEGIS, VLS with Standard SM2, Asroc)
Hatakaze class - 2 (1st commissioned 1986)

9 DE (escort Vessels: large corvettes / small frigates)
Abukuma Class - 6 (first commisioned 1989, with 76mm gun Phalanx CIWS, Harpoon, ASROC and prepared for RAM)
Yubari Class - 2 (first commisioned 1983, with 76mm gun Phalanx CIWS, Harpoon, no ASROC but Bofors RL ASW)
Ishikari Class - 1 (first commisioned 1981, with 76mm gun Phalanx CIWS, Harpoon, no ASROC but Bofors RL ASW)

Naval Aviation:
80 odd P-3 Orion MPA
70 SH60J a.k.a. S-70B-3

Japan already had a good foundation with help from the USA. China had nothing but patrol boats. Going from destroyers to destroyers isn't a major accomplishment, going from patrol boats to destroyers is.

For example say in the next 10 years, Vietnam produces 12 modern destroyers, 15 modern frigates and 25 modern subs, that would be a much higher accomplishment than the USA producing 25 Aegis destroyers and 15 subs.

[penguin]

Japan already had a good foundation with help from the USA. China had nothing but patrol boats. Going from destroyers to destroyers isn't a major accomplishment, going from patrol boats to destroyers is.

For example say in the next 10 years, Vietnam produces 12 modern destroyers, 15 modern frigates and 25 modern subs, that would be a much higher accomplishment than the USA producing 25 Aegis destroyers and 15 subs.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying PLAN is not making big strides forward! The question was which navy will be Asia's best in 2020, which is in 13 years. I'm not saying PLAN may not become Asia's finest. I (only) don't believe that's going to happen within the coming 13 years, if only because PLAN naval ascendance would create a counterreaction e.g. in South Korea, in Japan, and in India. These nations will react if they feel PLAN is becoming too powerfull in their eyes, meaning development of their own navies, including with whatever foreign assisntance they can get. See KDX-3, Kongo-2, AWD etc.

"It's no need to explain who is the best Asian navy and we're all brain-washed after being born in certain country.We're taught to believe something when we're a child and it's difficult to change your mind.Do you notice that it's the Indians and some half-whites are so eager to such kind of thread like China VS US and China VS west. If the Indians and some half-whites believe something,let them be!!!!Thanks god,most Chinese are used to work more and speak less or the world will have too much noisy. "

Blah blah blah.  Shall we stick to the facts. 2 Aegis like ships don't make PLAN the best in Asia.

[harrypotter]

Japan already had a good foundation with help from the USA. China had nothing but patrol boats. Going from destroyers to destroyers isn't a major accomplishment, going from patrol boats to destroyers is.

For example say in the next 10 years, Vietnam produces 12 modern destroyers, 15 modern frigates and 25 modern subs, that would be a much higher accomplishment than the USA producing 25 Aegis destroyers and 15 subs.

So China's navy is all about patrol boats ?? are u really sure ? Sorry i am a bit demented , is this year 1980 ? oh #### its year 2007

[zhou]

Blah blah blah.  Shall we stick to the facts. 2 Aegis like ships don't make PLAN the best in Asia.

What fact?The fact is even the 30+ years old 092 SSBN could burn any Asian country.Need more fire power?

[Admiral]

So China's navy is all about patrol boats ?? are u really sure ? Sorry i am a bit demented , is this year 1980 ? oh #### its year 2007

Dude are you dumb read my previous post that you even quoted, i was referring to the 1980s to early 1990s era.  

[tphuang]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying PLAN is not making big strides forward! The question was which navy will be Asia's best in 2020, which is in 13 years. I'm not saying PLAN may not become Asia's finest. I (only) don't believe that's going to happen within the coming 13 years, if only because PLAN naval ascendance would create a counterreaction e.g. in South Korea, in Japan, and in India. These nations will react if they feel PLAN is becoming too powerfull in their eyes, meaning development of their own navies, including with whatever foreign assisntance they can get. See KDX-3, Kongo-2, AWD etc.

"It's no need to explain who is the best Asian navy and we're all brain-washed after being born in certain country.We're taught to believe something when we're a child and it's difficult to change your mind.Do you notice that it's the Indians and some half-whites are so eager to such kind of thread like China VS US and China VS west. If the Indians and some half-whites believe something,let them be!!!!Thanks god,most Chinese are used to work more and speak less or the world will have too much noisy. "

Blah blah blah.  Shall we stick to the facts. 2 Aegis like ships don't make PLAN the best in Asia.

13 years is not a lot of times for you?  I can easily argue in terms of equipment, PLAN has improved 3 to 4 folds in the past 5 years.  In certain areas like AAW, MCM, fleet supply and amphibious assets, the improvement is even more significant.  south koreans, Japanese and Indians can be as alarmed as they want, they have no way of stopping PLAN growth.  You only need to take a look at recent 891 and 892 photos to see some of the modern systems that PLAN is already testing with.  The only thing that PLAN is really weak on right now is ASW, but as we have seen how their MCM capability improved in just 1 year, 5 years is plenty of time for PLAN to surprise everyone.

[Titan_1984]

Can anyone compare one-to-one between future PLAN & IN

I am posting for IN........


Best frigate....

P-17A


Best destroyer.......

P-15A Aegis DDG



MMA and anti-SUBMARINE aircraft.......

P-8I MMA





AWACS:

E-2D Advanced Hawkeye (talks going on)





Best SSK..........

Scorpene




Best SSN.........

Akula-2




Best carrier


IAC (40 fighters)




Can anyone post for PLAN............

[tphuang]

Can anyone compare one-to-one between future PLAN & IN

I am posting for IN........
Best frigate....

P-17A
Best destroyer.......

P-15A Aegis DDG
MMA and anti-SUBMARINE aircraft.......

P-8I MMA
AWACS:

E-2D Advanced Hawkeye (talks going on)
Best SSK..........

Scorpene
Best SSN.........

Akula-2
Best carrier
IAC (40 fighters)
Can anyone post for PLAN............

why do little fanboys like yourself keep on posting junk like this?  Without a catobar carrier, how are you going to launch E-2D.  Which carrier you have can actually host 40 fighters at the same time?  When did P-15A become Aegis (do you know what Aegis is?)?  When did P-8I become a done deal?

When it comes to PLAN, you can only compare to the present, because its capability changes that much year to year.

[Titan_1984]

why do little fanboys like yourself keep on posting junk like this?  

If I am a little boy than you are unborn child . Dont live in fantassy land. Keep on watching news from around the world than you will learn something.

Without a catobar carrier, how are you going to launch E-2D.  

Indian Navy not going for carrier based E-2D, NORTHROP GRUMMAN  first offered it for carrier based operation but IN said her carrier dont have catpult to launch E-2D from carrier. So now they sent RFP for shore based E-2D and Indian Navy will trial it soon. As it is the only contender so E-2D for Indian Navy in future. They are working for India specific E-2D.

Which carrier you have can actually host 40 fighters at the same time?

The new and final design of IAC underconstruction will be capable of placing 40 fighters onboard.

When did P-15A become Aegis (do you know what Aegis is?)?

Look what Defense Minister informed the Lok Sabha , ""Lockheed Martin made a presentation to the Indian Navy in November 2006, this presentation was made in respect of three ship-board missile systems". Yes he is talking about Aegis system. And only one class of ship that is under-construction is capable of integrating Aegis system that is P-15A, because P-17s are final stage of integrations.  

Navy wants the P-15A should get an advanced missile defense system and they sent RPF to Lockheed Martin for its Aegis combat system. In reply LM made a complete presentatation of the system to IN in 2006. So I think its matter of time that P-15A will get Aegis or without P-15A its not possible.

When did P-8I become a done deal?

lol its the most done deal. Boeing is in final stage development for an Indian Navy P-8I according to IN specification. As I had seen a news the deal is over they are developing an Indian Navy version of P-8 thats all.

When it comes to PLAN, you can only compare to the present, because its capability changes that much year to year.

Yes numerically only but interms of technology which PLAN's platforms comes near the above posted ships and aircrafts. PLAN is going for a large number of medium tech weapons like it did in past but technology matters in modern day warfare.

IN going for a small but platforms from most advanced countries that China cant even dream. For example the huge PLAN submarine fleet is nothing in front of Scorpene, (Amur/U-214 secondline), P-8MMA, P-28 etc. What you say they are comprable??

[zhou]

Indian style "Buying Super Power"-----Everything is bought from outside.     

[Titan_1984]

Indian style "Buying Super Power"-----Everything is bought from outside.     

Thats correct but not all. About 70% of new ships are under construction in India only. And Naval ALH including indegenous upgradation of older foreign systems. But most of the aircrafts are from outside.

[tphuang]

If I am a little boy than you are unborn child . Dont live in fantassy land. Keep on watching news from around the world than you will learn something.

lol, alright, I guess you don't want to learn.

Indian Navy not going for carrier based E-2D, NORTHROP GRUMMAN  first offered it for carrier based operation but IN said her carrier dont have catpult to launch E-2D from carrier. So now they sent RFP for shore based E-2D and Indian Navy will trial it soon. As it is the only contender so E-2D for Indian Navy in future. They are working for India specific E-2D.

if it's a shore based, then why even bother mention it?  you can't deploy it as part of your fleet.

The new and final design of IAC underconstruction will be capable of placing 40 fighters onboard.

lol, the much larger kuznetsov can normally only carry 12 su-33s, how do you think ADS is going to carry 40?  With helicopters, probably, but not when we are just talking about Mig-29Ks.

Look what Defense Minister informed the Lok Sabha , ""Lockheed Martin made a presentation to the Indian Navy in November 2006, this presentation was made in respect of three ship-board missile systems". Yes he is talking about Aegis system. And only one class of ship that is under-construction is capable of integrating Aegis system that is P-15A, because P-17s are final stage of integrations.  

So, again, it's in talks.  Why don't you come back to me when they finish talking and sign something?

Navy wants the P-15A should get an advanced missile defense system and they sent RPF to Lockheed Martin for its Aegis combat system. In reply LM made a complete presentatation of the system to IN in 2006. So I think its matter of time that P-15A will get Aegis or without P-15A its not possible.

nope, it's far more likely for India to get the Barak + Israeli AESA radar combination.
http://WWW.India-facts.com/NAVY/Kolkata.html

lol its the most done deal. Boeing is in final stage development for an Indian Navy P-8I according to IN specification. As I had seen a news the deal is over they are developing an Indian Navy version of P-8 thats all.

Again, talk to me when it's a done deal.  Half of your "best" weapons so far are in talks.

Yes numerically only but interms of technology which PLAN's platforms comes near the above posted ships and aircrafts. PLAN is going for a large number of medium tech weapons like it did in past but technology matters in modern day warfare.

huh?  Mig29K?  That's going to be the worst naval fighter in the world once the harriers retire.
P-15A?  we haven't seen the freaking ship.  One thing's for sure, 052C already has the air defense capability that P-15A is suppose to have
P-17? Do you really want to do a comparison between itself and 054A and its follow ups?
Scorpene? you are not getting them until 2010-2015.  China is already moving beyond the experimental Yuan class.  And the goal of the next SSK is not going to be scorpene/U-212, but the Oyashio class.

Akula? well, this is what gf0012-aust posted a while back on DT, spoils some dreams, huh?

Russia is not conducting talks with India on possible leasing of a Project 971 Nerpa nuclear submarine (NATO-codename Akula-2), the deputy head of the Russian federal service on military and technical cooperation, Vladimir Paleshchuk, told a news conference on Wednesday.

In reply to an Itar-Tass question on prospects of using Nerpa that was recently
set afloat from the Amur shipyard, Paleshchuk said the talks on leasing of
Russia's submarines, but not nuclear ones are in progress.

Earlier, some mass media reported that after tests Nerpa would be leased to
India.

Project 971 nuclear submarines have in service eight torpedo launchers, cruise
missiles Granit and underwater missiles Shkval.

Nerpa was designed back in 1991, but funds shortages delayed the construction
for 15 years.

As for the other stuff you mentionned, you haven't even signed those contracts.  What are you bragging about?
Since you don't know much about PLAN's aerial wings, I will just tell you that it already has KJ-200 as it's AEW&C, Y-8J as another type of AEW.  And now you are saying IN is in talks to get AEW&C.  lol, keep on talking and PLAN will keep on deploying more and improved KJ-200s

How about this.  Have you ever bothered to compare the replenishment ships?  The MCM assets?  The amphibious force? The FACs?

IN going for a small but platforms from most advanced countries that China cant even dream. For example the huge PLAN submarine fleet is nothing in front of Scorpene, (Amur/U-214 secondline), P-8MMA, P-28 etc. What you say they are comprable??

See this is your problem.  You keep on wanting to compare what China has right now with what India will have.  In PLAN, it's all about the present, because the improvement changes that fast.

[maglomanic]

TP,

Your reasons for reservations against Mig-29 K in naval role?
Also i would not vouch for Yuan against Scorpene based on the respective experience and technology level of developers alone. Perhaps future evolution and upgrade of Yuan.

[sinodefender]

sunburn is one hell of a missile and it will give USN 2.5 seconds to react,agreed....but whats the use if USN will not let even have 1.5 seconds to sunburn launching platform to lanuch the sunburn????do u really belive that USN will just conventionally float its ships in front of chinese ships to get hit by sunburn???big NO NO....do I need to explain u abt USN's satelite surveillance,seawolf/LA class subs,state of an art early warning platforms,Ageis systems,MAD ASW warfare,network centric functionalities and air based anti ship attack platforms like SH's???so no...USN is not defenceless infront of any cruise missile.....china is big power and future super power no doubt but USA is one sleeping Vampire and attacking taiwan means waking up the sleeping Vampire...when vampire bites a person then that victim person starts behaving like vampire...now see how iraqi and afgani govts. are behaving.....they have draculla (vampire) bite on their necks...

may i also remind you that china is one of the two countries with the other being the us that has the ability to take down surveillance statelites?

in a war with china, the us cannot rely on statelites as heavily as it has with other countries.

[sinodefender]

computer got frozen

[sinodefender]

If I am a little boy than you are unborn child . Dont live in fantassy land. Keep on watching news from around the world than you will learn something.
Indian Navy not going for carrier based E-2D, NORTHROP GRUMMAN  first offered it for carrier based operation but IN said her carrier dont have catpult to launch E-2D from carrier. So now they sent RFP for shore based E-2D and Indian Navy will trial it soon. As it is the only contender so E-2D for Indian Navy in future. They are working for India specific E-2D.
The new and final design of IAC underconstruction will be capable of placing 40 fighters onboard.
Look what Defense Minister informed the Lok Sabha , ""Lockheed Martin made a presentation to the Indian Navy in November 2006, this presentation was made in respect of three ship-board missile systems". Yes he is talking about Aegis system. And only one class of ship that is under-construction is capable of integrating Aegis system that is P-15A, because P-17s are final stage of integrations.  

Navy wants the P-15A should get an advanced missile defense system and they sent RPF to Lockheed Martin for its Aegis combat system. In reply LM made a complete presentatation of the system to IN in 2006. So I think its matter of time that P-15A will get Aegis or without P-15A its not possible.
lol its the most done deal. Boeing is in final stage development for an Indian Navy P-8I according to IN specification. As I had seen a news the deal is over they are developing an Indian Navy version of P-8 thats all.
Yes numerically only but interms of technology which PLAN's platforms comes near the above posted ships and aircrafts. PLAN is going for a large number of medium tech weapons like it did in past but technology matters in modern day warfare.

IN going for a small but platforms from most advanced countries that China cant even dream. For example the huge PLAN submarine fleet is nothing in front of Scorpene, (Amur/U-214 secondline), P-8MMA, P-28 etc. What you say they are comprable??

ever heard of 093, 094, yuen class, kilo class?
yes, we do have a lot of useless boats, but the number of advanced we have is still more than india's.

it's 2007, i would say almost all plan ships produced in the same time period are more advanced than indian's.

besides, no chinese are interested in comparing with india. i suggest india focus more on its social and economic developments. so that you indians don't have to come to hong kong to work as construction workers and security guards.

it just doesn't make sense to compare india's military ability to china's when its economy and military budget are so much lower.

no matter what you have, there's no way that you can finance a war with china. in the time of war, you can't keep up with china in term of productivity.

[Titan_1984]

if it's a shore based, then why even bother mention it? you can't deploy it as part of your fleet.

So it will not be able to fly over Indian Ocean and SoM (from A&N).......Soo that dont make it as a part of Indian Navy....nothing to say.

lol, the much larger kuznetsov can normally only carry 12 su-33s, how do you think ADS is going to carry 40? With helicopters, probably, but not when we are just talking about Mig-29Ks.

You proved your self in this reply...do you know how many fighter the INS Vickramaditya (44000 ton) will carry though its a modified cruiser. On the other hand 38000 ton IAC is a dedicated carrier with new design. French CDG is a 38000 ton ship and carries 40 Rafale M combat aircraft, the Super Etendard and three E-2C Hawkeye airborne early warning aircraft. It was built in 1994. Go and read something.

nope, it's far more likely for India to get the Barak + Israeli AESA radar combination.
http://WWW.India-facts.com/NAVY/Kolkata.html

that is just speculation, Barak-1 (JV between DRDO and Rafael) will be a 60-70 km range point defense anti-cruise/aircraft missile system for operating in smaller ships like P-28 corvettes and other future frigates and corvettes, not for P-15A. As they are talking about Aegis, only one platform is underconstruction to carry it that is P-15A.

Again, talk to me when it's a done deal. Half of your "best" weapons so far are in talks.

Do you know why Boeing gave 'I' sign to this export version of P-8???

huh? Mig29K? That's going to be the worst naval fighter in the world once the harriers retire.

really! it has the Topsight-E, advanced Isareli avionics and jammer, PESA radar and can carry long range anti-ship missiles. Name atleast one fighter from China which is as capable as it. Dont get confused........

P-15A? we haven't seen the freaking ship. One thing's for sure, 052C already has the air defense capability that P-15A is suppose to have

P-17? Do you really want to do a comparison between itself and 054A and its follow ups?

no no comparison please......we know what they are.....we know what P-17,P-16,Krivack can do and what 052c, 054a can do and what they carry.......nothing to say I just want to see what PLAN ships do when Brahmos and Mig-29K coming towards them what they have to counter them. We will see......If PLAN ship fire any missile fire any missile that can be countered by Barak-2, thats why its in development. Now dont say Chinese missiles are better than Israeli one.....

Scorpene? you are not getting them until 2010-2015. China is already moving beyond the experimental Yuan class. And the goal of the next SSK is not going to be scorpene/U-212, but the Oyashio class.

Hey you are so excited today mannn. Now its gone too far comparing latest French submarine with Chinese one.

Akula? well, this is what gf0012-aust posted a while back on DT, spoils some dreams, huh?

lol who is gf0012 i dont know and is he a military officier from Russia and India. why you just go to www.google.com and search for "Akula submarine India". So all the news reports from around the world is false.....

As for the other stuff you mentionned, you haven't even signed those contracts. What are you bragging about?
Since you don't know much about PLAN's aerial wings, I will just tell you that it already has KJ-200 as it's AEW&C, Y-8J as another type of AEW. And now you are saying IN is in talks to get AEW&C. lol, keep on talking and PLAN will keep on deploying more and improved KJ-200s

How about this. Have you ever bothered to compare the replenishment ships? The MCM assets? The amphibious force? The FACs?

E-2D has MESA radar what KJ-200 has??? Show me only one proof that KJ-200 is already in PLAn service....

See this is your problem. You keep on wanting to compare what China has right now with what India will have. In PLAN, it's all about the present, because the improvement changes that fast.

Yeah i was talking about future projected platforms. What Indian Navy today have is capable enough to trace Chinese subs. Look at the upgraded Tu-142,  Kashin, Krivak, Kilo, P-15, P-16, P-16A.