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#1
longlake
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Posted 17 October 2007 - 05:05 PM
India ordered 140 Su30mki in the late 90’s, and now it seems to increase the order to 190 but so far only 70 has arrived. The India government makes the payment so slow and Russian only delivered the aircraft when they see cash. As you already known, India use SU30MKI as air superiority aircraft, since it doesn’t has the air to ground capabilities, it can load the weapon which India government have shown you, but it couldn’t find the target.
The India airforce also have Mirage 2000, the technology is about 20 years old, the engine is of low thrust due to the limitation of the French engine technologies and aerodynamic is not as good as F16 nor the JF17 due to its tailless design. The Mig29 not in good shape due to poor maintenance. So they don’t’ have the so called air superiority over Pakistan.
Pakistan already have 4 JF17 as you have seen, the avionics are so advanced, if you look at India SU30mki you side by side you will see how the technology have changed. India claimed they can improve the avionics for the Su30mki, as they have claimed similar things for many years. Don’t expect it will happen in the next 50 years.
According to the agreements between Pak and China, 36 J-10 will be delivered to Pak air force; in case of emergency can “borrow” J-10 from PLA air force directly. J10 has been undergone extensive test flights and exercises in China, it shows the J-10 have clearly an upper hand against Su27 and remember Su27 is still better than the SU30.
India is a poor country and it is pouring money into the military, although it has many goals, but it was limited by budget and India leader’s views. Su30mki was not a very good choice for air to air combat, it is a dual role fighter bomber, it is better than mirage2k and mig29, in terms of aerodynamic performance, it still has problems like, the avionics are a generation away from Pak JF17’s on board system.
For Mirage2k and Mig29, these are the 80’s technologies, and have had no upgrading or what so ever, India claimed they “can” upgrade the avionics and “will” be done in xxxx years, no one believe that. Fro SU30MKI, don’t even have to worry about that, J-10’s are enough, and Su30mki’s maintenance is another nightmare for India, cost so much money, and Russians charging for everything, that is why so far India only got less than 70 after almost 10 years since they sign the purchasing deal.
So, Indians please stop bull shxtting here, and face the fact.
Cheers
#2
Londo Molari
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Posted 17 October 2007 - 05:24 PM
But the claims you are making just seem wrong.
The heavier weight of Su-30MKI is countered by canards and thrust vectoring. Its probably even more maneuverable than Su-27. Russia CAN'T buy Su-30MKI even if they wanted to, because it has French and Israeli avionics that are not allowed to Russia. And Russia did not try ordering their own MKI because when the MKI was made, their economy was poor, their military in decline, they could not afford it. Today, it might be a different situation, but with 5000 nukes, Russia doesn't really feel the need for top-of-the-line fighters.
Yes, the Su-30MKI is not some magical unstoppable monster, but its not a joke either.
Until the Su-30MKI arrived, Indian Mig-29s were their front line fighter and were kept in top-top condition. They even had an edge over our F-16s because of their BVR. They are definitely not in bad shape.
The Indians found their Mirage 2000's to be inferior to F-16s, and so they were dedicated to strike role.
#3
hesidu
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Posted 17 October 2007 - 07:04 PM
But the claims you are making just seem wrong.
The heavier weight of Su-30MKI is countered by canards and thrust vectoring. Its probably even more maneuverable than Su-27. Russia CAN'T buy Su-30MKI even if they wanted to, because it has French and Israeli avionics that are not allowed to Russia. And Russia did not try ordering their own MKI because when the MKI was made, their economy was poor, their military in decline, they could not afford it. Today, it might be a different situation, but with 5000 nukes, Russia doesn't really feel the need for top-of-the-line fighters.
Yes, the Su-30MKI is not some magical unstoppable monster, but its not a joke either.
Until the Su-30MKI arrived, Indian Mig-29s were their front line fighter and were kept in top-top condition. They even had an edge over our F-16s because of their BVR. They are definitely not in bad shape.
The Indians found their Mirage 2000's to be inferior to F-16s, and so they were dedicated to strike role.
Su-30MKI is good. There is no doubt of that. But there is still some question of that. First, It very hard to integrate so many different system into one fighter. Though, the subsystem of Su-30MKI is excellent, but it's not sure these subsystem can work harmoniously. Second, It quite costly to maintain so many different system. So in the long-term, the state of these fighters would be a question. How many Su-30MKIs will in good condition for combat is still unknow.
#4
vvvaidya29
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Posted 17 October 2007 - 10:49 PM
even if MKI is not capable to deal with J-10 then also we have so many options to counter that threat...we have S-300 PMU and Greenpine radars system to deal with J-10...romours are there that we may even go for S-400 or ArrowII....for ground attack also we have Jaguar Darin II and MIG-27's......M2K for ground attack are also not bad either.....we have lot of BVR capable Bisons which can be used to harass J-10,F16 and JF-17 with help of awacs and other fighters...even MKI's and Fulcrums can be used to harass them in defensive mode.......if Pakistan is on offensive role then surely this can be done....
their Mirages and F-7PG's are very old and I dont think that they will be able to survive against our new generation SAMs'......heck even SA-6 type older SAM's gave NATO airforce a hell of time in serbian war......you always come and underestimate India but the fact is we can protect ourselves......
an obligation to make one more try"
#5
Titan_1984
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Posted 17 October 2007 - 11:36 PM
India ordered 140 Su30mki in the late 90’s, and now it seems to increase the order to 190 but so far only 70 has arrived. The India government makes the payment so slow and Russian only delivered the aircraft when they see cash. As you already known, India use SU30MKI as air superiority aircraft, since it doesn’t has the air to ground capabilities, it can load the weapon which India government have shown you, but it couldn’t find the target.
The India airforce also have Mirage 2000, the technology is about 20 years old, the engine is of low thrust due to the limitation of the French engine technologies and aerodynamic is not as good as F16 nor the JF17 due to its tailless design. The Mig29 not in good shape due to poor maintenance. So they don’t’ have the so called air superiority over Pakistan.
Pakistan already have 4 JF17 as you have seen, the avionics are so advanced, if you look at India SU30mki you side by side you will see how the technology have changed. India claimed they can improve the avionics for the Su30mki, as they have claimed similar things for many years. Don’t expect it will happen in the next 50 years.
According to the agreements between Pak and China, 36 J-10 will be delivered to Pak air force; in case of emergency can “borrow” J-10 from PLA air force directly. J10 has been undergone extensive test flights and exercises in China, it shows the J-10 have clearly an upper hand against Su27 and remember Su27 is still better than the SU30.
India is a poor country and it is pouring money into the military, although it has many goals, but it was limited by budget and India leader’s views. Su30mki was not a very good choice for air to air combat, it is a dual role fighter bomber, it is better than mirage2k and mig29, in terms of aerodynamic performance, it still has problems like, the avionics are a generation away from Pak JF17’s on board system.
For Mirage2k and Mig29, these are the 80’s technologies, and have had no upgrading or what so ever, India claimed they “can” upgrade the avionics and “will” be done in xxxx years, no one believe that. Fro SU30MKI, don’t even have to worry about that, J-10’s are enough, and Su30mki’s maintenance is another nightmare for India, cost so much money, and Russians charging for everything, that is why so far India only got less than 70 after almost 10 years since they sign the purchasing deal.
So, Indians please stop bull shxtting here, and face the fact.
Cheers
who wrote the artice?
There are more fools in the world that they wanna seat in the MKI for once like French, English, American etc. And many other fools ordering MKI........
If India wanted could integrate full avionics, sensors, radar, EW system from either Russia, Israel or France. But they gone for mixed systems like French displays, navigations, Israeli avionics, LIT-3 pod, EL/M-8222 pod etc, and Indian systems like Mission computer-1, MC-2, avionics (project V), radar computer, SPJ, RWR, HADF etc. South African ECS (same as in EFT).
i am actually from Kalpa,Kinnaur . its like a dream land. we are locally called as Kinner. Currently a student.
#6
halfemtysoul
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Posted 17 October 2007 - 11:46 PM
lol!!!!! dude indians are known to use the best of it wepons and a crab plane based on mig 21(jf-17) and other on levi (j-10) with self boasted tec. are going to counter with one of the best well mantained and morden airpower. (look to other fourm than pak and sino). the orgument should be based on logic and facts and history.
Dude, wheres your cab?
First off, stop being an ignorant dumbass, mig21 and Jf17 have nothing in common. Levi was a project shut down through US pressure because the fighter, not even with the high tech avionics was and now is a beautifull platform for air to air, air to ground and ship (multi-role even). Gave the US aviation industry a run for its money.
Now its in differnet hands. You think your upgraded SU27 (woops SU30 mkis) are something? Wait till we get these customed J10s up there.
And indians are known to use the best of its weapons??
#7
bomberstream
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Posted 18 October 2007 - 01:31 AM
First off, stop being an ignorant dumbass, mig21 and Jf17 have nothing in common. Levi was a project shut down through US pressure because the fighter, not even with the high tech avionics was and now is a beautifull platform for air to air, air to ground and ship (multi-role even). Gave the US aviation industry a run for its money.
Now its in differnet hands. You think your upgraded SU27 (woops SU30 mkis) are something? Wait till we get these customed J10s up there.
And indians are known to use the best of its weapons??
Just thinking and wishing the other side is crap does not help in real wars.
India knows that PAF is a threat and is thus taking necessary steps.
PAF customises, india customises more.The MRCAs,more phalcons cannot be wished away, by shouting old tech.
Even the oldest Mig will require aircraft to counter, not by shouting old tech.
The PAF does not have infinite resources or aircraft.
Numerical superiority will always matter, j-10 or whatver, will never be in two places at one time.The spread of Indian bases and more no of aircraft gives the IAF more options.
And whay do you forget the Indian Navy, the PAF has to contend with that too.Or will simply shouting old harriers scare it away.
The PAF has always been an air defence force, it simply cannot afford to leave its home exposed for a sustained period since it has a smaller space to defend.
Small works both ways, less to defend, but for the enemy too it means, more target density, and less time over enemy airspace.
That is why even in earlier wars, it is the IAF which has flown more missions and attacked Pak forces more.The IAF has always been very good at ground support.
Consequently it has suffered more losses in nos though when compared with missions, its position is not bad.
http://www.pafcombat...s-of-losses.htm
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I cannot understand this obsessions with nos, this is not a game.In wars there will always be losses, what matters is support and help to your forces, and accomplishment of war aims.
This has been noted by pak writers themselves.
http://www.defencejo...fightergap1.htm
http://www.defencejo...fightergap2.htm
PAF is taking steps to strenghten itself, and so ith IAF.
Wishing each other away is easy in amatuer forums, not so in real life.
#8
vvvaidya29
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Posted 18 October 2007 - 01:39 AM
an obligation to make one more try"
#9
arham
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Posted 18 October 2007 - 01:54 AM
without the israeli avionics the MKI is as good as the rose-II
[9:81] Those who were left behind (in the Tabuk expedition) rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the Messenger of Allah: they hated to strive and fight, with their goods and their persons, in the cause of Allah: they said, "Go not forth in the heat." Say, "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat." If only they could understand!
.
#10
airomerix
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Posted 18 October 2007 - 08:25 AM
Consequently it has suffered more losses in nos though when compared with missions, its position is not bad.
http://www.pafcombat...s-of-losses.htm
.
I cannot understand this obsessions with nos, this is not a game.In wars there will always be losses, what matters is support and help to your forces, and accomplishment of war aims.
This has been noted by pak writers themselves.
http://www.defencejo...fightergap1.htm
http://www.defencejo...fightergap2.htm
PAF is taking steps to strenghten itself, and so ith IAF.
Wishing each other away is easy in amatuer forums, not so in real life.
Well yeah ur right!!!
IAF flew more missions and attacked Pakistani forces,
and where as ur abv dumb statment is concerned,
IAF also lost more hi-tec aircrafts and even ur pilots landed ur gnats for surrendering!!
It is said that there is a man behind the gun! it compels to the engagment of a sabre with Mig-21 and the result was the destruction of ur miggie!!!
So always stay comb, see the facts and figures.
Yes i admit that PAF is currently inferior to IAF in terms of equipment but dont forget that our pilots are the one who always buck allll indians out of their sight!
And yeah dont forget our F-16Block 52s and F-16 MLUs which will be inducted very soon. They are the answere to ur flankers!!
#11
Pak Raptor
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Posted 18 October 2007 - 09:05 AM
Also with purchase of advanced 3-D ground radars and medium and long range SAMs will also make our defence very strong - also AMRAAM will be comin 4 ya sucka.
The navy also with the purchase of U-214 and with MESMA Agostas will give the hindain navy serious incontinence problems.
Pakistan PAINDABAD
#12
aziqbal
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Posted 18 October 2007 - 09:20 AM
Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Davos Switzerland
Deeper than the oceans higher than the mountains
China-Pakistan Allied Forces brothers In Arms
'Shaheen teri parwaaz sey jalta hai zamana, Tu bazo-e-par sey issey aur hawa dey'-------JF17 Thunder
Know O Muslims, you have never seen a army of Rome as you see now, if Allah defeats them by your hand they shall never again stand against you
be steadfast in battle and defend your faith, beware of turning your backs on ur enemy for then your punishment will be the fire
be watchful and steady in ur ranks, and do not attack until i give the order
Battle of Ajnadayn-Khalid Bin Waleed
#13
Best of the Best
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Posted 18 October 2007 - 09:48 AM
Yaar aziqbal bro i love JF-17 as much as you do maybe more and yes if money and more technology os poured into it, the plane would become a 4th generation or perhaps even something superiour to the F-16block50/52 5 to 6 years down the line but i beg to disagree with you on the fact that JF-17 is the answer to everything cause its Pakistani, we still need some europian platforms in the future along with their chinese counter parts.
#14
bomberstream
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Posted 18 October 2007 - 11:10 AM
IAF flew more missions and attacked Pakistani forces,
and where as ur abv dumb statment is concerned,
IAF also lost more hi-tec aircrafts and even ur pilots landed ur gnats for surrendering!!
It is said that there is a man behind the gun! it compels to the engagment of a sabre with Mig-21 and the result was the destruction of ur miggie!!!
So always stay comb, see the facts and figures.
Yes i admit that PAF is currently inferior to IAF in terms of equipment but dont forget that our pilots are the one who always buck allll indians out of their sight!
And yeah dont forget our F-16Block 52s and F-16 MLUs which will be inducted very soon. They are the answere to ur flankers!!
BTW in 1965 and 71, PAF had much better aircraft than the IAF.
The americans not only gave PAF the best fighters, but also experts to advises them such as Chuck Yeager.
Still,the Gnat faced modern Sabres equipped with with Radar guided cannons and missiles with just machine guns!
In wars one learns.65 was an eyeopener for IAF, and in 71 it simply checkmated the PAF attacks.Aircraft were kept protected from ground attacks, and IAF was much more in offensive.Pak articles themselves acknowldge this.
Background
In 1971 war, Mirages of PAF carried out impressive interdiction missions against various targets in India and in 1965, the F-86 Sabres carried out many successful attacks against airfields and other targets.
Although some airfield strike missions in 1965 like against Halwara airfield, led by Sqn Ldr S.A. Rafiqui and against Adampur, led by Sqn Ldr M.M. Alam were intercepted, in the ensuing air combat PAF was triumphant.
In 1965 war, the No.14 F-86 Squadron in Dhaka, East Pakistan did successful airfield attack missions against Kalaikunda airbase of IAF, but in 1971 war, this squadron was not in a position to carry out any airfield interdiction mission because this time ten IAF squadrons surrounded it.
Airfield attacks were not as successful in 1971 as compared to 1965 because all enemy planes were hidden in concrete shelters and not under open sky. Perhaps no bunker-buster or special anti-runway weapons were used, whereas IAF used ‘Dibber’ type anti-runway bombs against Tejgaon airbase in Dacca, East Pakistan. Thus the operations of No.14 F-86 squadron came to an end on 6th Dec, 1971.
It was after this event that IAF achieved complete control of skies and started full-fledged ground attacks, leading to the surrender of our troops.
If air cover is not provided to army or navy, they will certainly suffer heavy losses in that particular theatre of war, but if the enemy gains air superiority, then it will lead to national disgrace or even surrender.
http://www.defencejo...dec/counter.htm
But whatver, PAF is a professional airforce,and the PAF has brave men who fought and died for Pak .
The IAF takes it seriously, that is why its modernising.
#15
aziqbal
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Posted 18 October 2007 - 11:13 AM
yeah bro i competely agree i was just having some fun, but dont u think its more rewarding having own 3rd generation fighter than a imported 4th gen one, in time of war 4th gen become 1st gen because of sanctions!
Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Davos Switzerland
Deeper than the oceans higher than the mountains
China-Pakistan Allied Forces brothers In Arms
'Shaheen teri parwaaz sey jalta hai zamana, Tu bazo-e-par sey issey aur hawa dey'-------JF17 Thunder
Know O Muslims, you have never seen a army of Rome as you see now, if Allah defeats them by your hand they shall never again stand against you
be steadfast in battle and defend your faith, beware of turning your backs on ur enemy for then your punishment will be the fire
be watchful and steady in ur ranks, and do not attack until i give the order
Battle of Ajnadayn-Khalid Bin Waleed
#16
spearhead
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Posted 18 October 2007 - 11:32 AM
#17
_killuminati_
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Posted 18 October 2007 - 11:33 AM
Too much pride is not good.
I blast metaphorical
editorials educated
in my territorial
get torn
heavily armed with seventy bombs
that'll blast divine like the heavenly song
Your men'll be gone
if they explore my deepest thoughts
I beat hearts in two then ask demons for chalk
Quran 43:79
#18
JET_Flash
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Posted 18 October 2007 - 11:46 AM
We create and destroy,And again recreate,In forms of which no one knows[AL-Waquiah Qu'ran 56:61] Wings of Fire by A P J Abdul Kalam
http://dreamindia2020.org/login.do , http://www.friendswithoutborders.org/
#19
Best of the Best
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Posted 18 October 2007 - 11:49 AM
Yeah to some extant true but bro you see you have to take a certain capability of another aircraft into context i understand what your saying but still we would always need to to import fighters till the day we are capable enough to create our own world class jets, for example look at french they make their own equiptment sell it as well as use it in their arm forces(mirages,Rafale),another example is sweden(JAS 39 Grippen, Viggen) in other words they are self dependend but you see they have an established aviation industory and it will take us something like a decade to be where they are today that too with chinese help when we can make and create our own state of the art aircraft without anybodys help.
#20
longlake
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Posted 18 October 2007 - 05:06 PM
#21
Titan_1984
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Posted 18 October 2007 - 07:39 PM
the answer to everything is the JF17 why? because its a pakisans own fighter

so much self confidence isnot good, u previously said that JF-17 can do everything because its the fighter of the sole nuke power of the muslim world. is it the same case? why an imported 4th generation fighter isnt better than home grown 3rd gen fighter?!!!!!!!!
If i need something better and if i dont have that, must go for imported one.

i am actually from Kalpa,Kinnaur . its like a dream land. we are locally called as Kinner. Currently a student.
#22
XxSilentViruzxX
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Posted 18 October 2007 - 11:24 PM
This time, J-10, an aircraft comparable to a Block 40 F-16 at best, is better than a proven and trusted aircraft.
So the F-15, which was originally designed as a Air-Superiority fighter, and is now developed into the F-15E Strike Eagle and its variants, namely the F-15 S, K, I, or the SG, is a bad choice for strike missions?
I think some people need to stop getting high on the divine wind.
#23
Rooh Afza
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Posted 19 October 2007 - 12:28 AM
#24
Saeed Khan
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Posted 19 October 2007 - 02:24 AM

#25
aziqbal
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Posted 19 October 2007 - 12:02 PM
Yes I did and I say again JF17 is best fighter because its fighter of the sole muslim nuclear power the islamic republic of Pakistan dont doubt my posts again
Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Davos Switzerland
Deeper than the oceans higher than the mountains
China-Pakistan Allied Forces brothers In Arms
'Shaheen teri parwaaz sey jalta hai zamana, Tu bazo-e-par sey issey aur hawa dey'-------JF17 Thunder
Know O Muslims, you have never seen a army of Rome as you see now, if Allah defeats them by your hand they shall never again stand against you
be steadfast in battle and defend your faith, beware of turning your backs on ur enemy for then your punishment will be the fire
be watchful and steady in ur ranks, and do not attack until i give the order
Battle of Ajnadayn-Khalid Bin Waleed
#26
bojangles
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Posted 19 October 2007 - 12:07 PM

so much self confidence isnot good, u previously said that JF-17 can do everything because its the fighter of the sole nuke power of the muslim world. is it the same case? why an imported 4th generation fighter isnt better than home grown 3rd gen fighter?!!!!!!!!
If i need something better and if i dont have that, must go for imported one.

Or you could develop a better one. Only problem for India is, they can't even develop the first one (LCA), so I don't think they can develop a better one. And the JF17 is 4th generation.
#27
vijaytripoli
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Posted 19 October 2007 - 02:10 PM
CHAU
#28
longlake
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Posted 19 October 2007 - 04:10 PM
#29
speedyturtle
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Posted 19 October 2007 - 04:21 PM
SPEEDY

enjoy
http://www.talklifeforums.com
Only in Pakistan we make the most corrupt leaders the most powerful men.
YA Allah MUJH PE, MERE Pakistan PE AUR MERE MUSALMAAN BHAIYON PE APNA KARAM RAKHNA.
#30
speedyturtle
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Posted 19 October 2007 - 04:24 PM
And i think you need to learn a difference between 3rd and 4th generation aircraft, which world are you living in? ohh i forgot you are bhindian.
SPEEDY

enjoy
http://www.talklifeforums.com
Only in Pakistan we make the most corrupt leaders the most powerful men.
YA Allah MUJH PE, MERE Pakistan PE AUR MERE MUSALMAAN BHAIYON PE APNA KARAM RAKHNA.
#31
Titan_1984
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Posted 20 October 2007 - 12:24 AM
SPEEDY


and u r really from UK!

u started flaming and now 'enjoy'. u r really funny mann. let put aside generation u first know what is a fighter aircraft rather than a 'aircraft'.
i am actually from Kalpa,Kinnaur . its like a dream land. we are locally called as Kinner. Currently a student.
#32
vijaytripoli
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Posted 20 October 2007 - 01:33 AM
we and all know the capabalities of su-30mki, and thats why all the counteries now want to do the exercise with this beast!
chau
#33
Dizasta
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Posted 20 October 2007 - 02:09 AM
The indian air force requirement for a heavy air superiority fighter, never really existed. However, upon evaluating its capabilities and a good promotion of the fighter by the Russians, the indians were convinced that this fighter had potential. As an operator of many different platforms, such as the Mirage-2000hs, MiG-29 Fulcrums, MiG-27 Floggers, Harriers (old variants) and Jaguars. The indian air force were open to the Flanker option, to one end alone. This was of a heavy air-superiority fighter, which it didn't have in its inventory. Canards and thrust vectoring were an integral part of the Russian sales pitch to india, as it enhanced the capabilities of the Flankers as an air-superiority fighter.
China didn't reject or accept the Su-30Mki, it simply wasn't interested in a fighter which had alot of targeted loop-holes in it. Where the Mki uses French and Israeli avionics, which are both subject to European and American sanctions. However China did opt for the Su-30MKKs and utilized its capabilities to add more firepower to its arsenal of fighters, which includes the J-11s (Chinese variant of the Su-27s), the J-10A/Bs, JH-7s, J-8s, JF-17s & H-6 bombers. With Russians rejuvenated defence industry, many options are opening up and China is taking its time in evaluating the best ones available. And for that reason, the Chinese are taking a closer look at the Irbis-E radar to enhance its Flanker fleet's capability.
But most importantly of all, China does not want to rely on 'any' country for its defence requirements and as such, its making rapid advancements in its own defence industries with the likes of J-10 Vanguards show casing at the fore front of modern Chinese war-fighters.
The indian govt, though chosing the Flanker, made a good decision. It made an even better one (possibly based on its air force's choice) of having Israeli and French avionics and ECMs. This considerably enhances the Flanker's survivability in an air to air engagement.
Both their Mirages and Fulcrums are being upgraded. Both are capable fighters as well and when compared to our Mirages and Vipers, its the same story. We too are upgrading and enhancing our fighters with new avionics and ecms. With our Mirage III/Vs being upgraded under the ROSE (Retro-fit Of Strike Element) program with the French company Sagem, at PAC in Pakistan. And the Block-15 Fighting Falcons being upgraded under the MLU (Mid-Life Upgrade) & Falcon Star programs at TUSAS in Turkey. So there isn't any egde there, but both sides have capable fighters.
Although I admire your enthusiasm, friend. I would really have to point out that there are significant differences b/w the Su-27 Flankers and the Su-30Mki Flankers. Where the latter uses French and Israeli avionics/ecms, the Su-27s aren't really the post cold-war fighters which could challenge todays Strike Eagles, Typhoons, Rafales & Gripens. For this reason alone, the Russians embarked upon developing a newer (in a list of countless others) variants. However this variant has all the best of all Flanker variants and none of the flaws. This is the Su-35 Flanker, which appeared at the MAKS-2007 air show and was only on static display, as work is still to be completed on it. Su-35s incorporate structural changes in aero-dynamic shaping and composite material, a more powerful engine (with TVC), canards, new radar (most likely, the Irbis-E) and a new ECM suite.
One doesn't worry in such matters, rather, alter and pit strategies which would be effective to counter the enemy's moves. Yes, the J-10s are a formidable fighter force and China truely has achieved a milestone its aviation history. This fighter would see maturity in advance design & technology being incorporated in the years to come and many blocks being built. Pakistan is fortunate to have a friend and ally like China and would empower its air force to a greater capability in the future.
One more thing, my Chinese friend ...... there is nothing you or I could do about indians bull$hitting. Ever tried to tell a barking dog to shut-up?
........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........
........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........
........ it shall be done, as it is said "Kun Faya Koon
By, Mujahid Hosein (son of Imran Hosein)
#34
Cougar
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Posted 20 October 2007 - 02:58 AM
China didn't reject or accept the Su-30Mki, it simply wasn't interested in a fighter which had alot of targeted loop-holes in it. Where the Mki uses French and Israeli avionics, which are both subject to European and American sanctions. However China did opt for the Su-30MKKs and utilized its capabilities to add more firepower to its arsenal of fighters, which includes the J-11s (Chinese variant of the Su-27s), the J-10A/Bs, JH-7s, J-8s, JF-17s & H-6 bombers. With Russians rejuvenated defence industry, many options are opening up and China is taking its time in evaluating the best ones available. And for that reason, the Chinese are taking a closer look at the Irbis-E radar to enhance its Flanker fleet's capability.
But most importantly of all, China does not want to rely on 'any' country for its defence requirements and as such, its making rapid advancements in its own defence industries with the likes of J-10 Vanguards show casing at the fore front of modern Chinese war-fighters.
The indian govt, though chosing the Flanker, made a good decision. It made an even better one (possibly based on its air force's choice) of having Israeli and French avionics and ECMs. This considerably enhances the Flanker's survivability in an air to air engagement.
Both their Mirages and Fulcrums are being upgraded. Both are capable fighters as well and when compared to our Mirages and Vipers, its the same story. We too are upgrading and enhancing our fighters with new avionics and ecms. With our Mirage III/Vs being upgraded under the ROSE (Retro-fit Of Strike Element) program with the French company Sagem, at PAC in Pakistan. And the Block-15 Fighting Falcons being upgraded under the MLU (Mid-Life Upgrade) & Falcon Star programs at TUSAS in Turkey. So there isn't any egde there, but both sides have capable fighters.
Although I admire your enthusiasm, friend. I would really have to point out that there are significant differences b/w the Su-27 Flankers and the Su-30Mki Flankers. Where the latter uses French and Israeli avionics/ecms, the Su-27s aren't really the post cold-war fighters which could challenge todays Strike Eagles, Typhoons, Rafales & Gripens. For this reason alone, the Russians embarked upon developing a newer (in a list of countless others) variants. However this variant has all the best of all Flanker variants and none of the flaws. This is the Su-35 Flanker, which appeared at the MAKS-2007 air show and was only on static display, as work is still to be completed on it. Su-35s incorporate structural changes in aero-dynamic shaping and composite material, a more powerful engine (with TVC), canards, new radar (most likely, the Irbis-E) and a new ECM suite.
One doesn't worry in such matters, rather, alter and pit strategies which would be effective to counter the enemy's moves. Yes, the J-10s are a formidable fighter force and China truely has achieved a milestone its aviation history. This fighter would see maturity in advance design & technology being incorporated in the years to come and many blocks being built. Pakistan is fortunate to have a friend and ally like China and would empower its air force to a greater capability in the future.
One more thing, my Chinese friend ...... there is nothing you or I could do about indians bull$hitting. Ever tried to tell a barking dog to shut-up?
Couldnt have commented better!
#35
Dizasta
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Posted 20 October 2007 - 03:01 AM
The "standard" target in US is with 1 sqm RCS! So the range (110 km for the APG 68 (V)9 and ~150 km for the APG 80 are relative to this RCS.
For a 10 sqm target (Su 30/F 15), this would translate into:
- Detection range of the APG 68(V) 9 for a Su 30 like target: 195 km
- Detection range of the APG 80 for a Su 30-like target: 266 km.
- On the other hand, the same for the Russian Bars relative to an F 16-like target is 106 km.
........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........
........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........
........ it shall be done, as it is said "Kun Faya Koon
By, Mujahid Hosein (son of Imran Hosein)
#36
JET_Flash
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BRIGADIER
Posted 20 October 2007 - 04:24 AM
"Air-to-air" mode
The fighter's lock-in range of at least, km: - at opposite courses 120-140
- at overtaking courses 60
Not given at what RCS the lock is.
We create and destroy,And again recreate,In forms of which no one knows[AL-Waquiah Qu'ran 56:61] Wings of Fire by A P J Abdul Kalam
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#37
longlake
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Posted 20 October 2007 - 06:16 AM
The "standard" target in US is with 1 sqm RCS! So the range (110 km for the APG 68 (V)9 and ~150 km for the APG 80 are relative to this RCS.
For a 10 sqm target (Su 30/F 15), this would translate into:
- Detection range of the APG 68(V) 9 for a Su 30 like target: 195 km
- Detection range of the APG 80 for a Su 30-like target: 266 km.
- On the other hand, the same for the Russian Bars relative to an F 16-like target is 106 km.
My dear india Dizasta:
You are truly the disasta, no wonder indian goverment made bad decision again and again. seems you know nothing about aviation technology nor the industry. Su30Mki is a like a heavy bear try to fight like a monkey, an indian monkey, too bad. and your Mirage 2k, Mig29 have upgraded? you must be kidding me, you ate too much indian shxt. none of the indian weapon have ever been "upgraded", or why your jets keep crashing everyweek? you indians are too good at making stories, stories that only indians will believe, just a beggers' new cloth, not even cover your donkey ass.
tell us why SU30MKI is a "better" choice, it was for ground attack although no radar mode for that, it is like a blind guy have a knife in his hand, where to go? no india use it as an air superiority aircraft try to fight with J10/J11 or SU27, you out of you mind. indian politician should give you a seat in the goverment toilet.
#38
Best of the Best
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Posted 20 October 2007 - 07:17 AM
You are truly the disasta, no wonder indian goverment made bad decision again and again. seems you know nothing about aviation technology nor the industry. Su30Mki is a like a heavy bear try to fight like a monkey, an indian monkey, too bad. and your Mirage 2k, Mig29 have upgraded? you must be kidding me, you ate too much indian shxt. none of the indian weapon have ever been "upgraded", or why your jets keep crashing everyweek? you indians are too good at making stories, stories that only indians will believe, just a beggers' new cloth, not even cover your donkey ass.
tell us why SU30MKI is a "better" choice, it was for ground attack although no radar mode for that, it is like a blind guy have a knife in his hand, where to go? no india use it as an air superiority aircraft try to fight with J10/J11 or SU27, you out of you mind. indian politician should give you a seat in the goverment toilet.
You need to get your facts straight Dizasta is a Pakistani and so am i before calling Dizasta an indian you should know he is the most biggest anti-indian guy on the forum and he was just giving his point of view on the flankers, i love chinese since they are our long lasting and time tested allies and china has always been here for us Pakistani's but sorry my chinese friend according to your logic everything india has is inferiour just because india has it by your logic even if india has a F-22 you would call it crap.
SU-30MKI is quite a amazing machine the only problem is its a bit over rated indian tend to show it as a F-22 killer or talk non-sence like a whole squadren of MKI's can take on PAF, where MKI is so great it also holds its disadvantages, huge size,big @ss RCS, very hard to maintain, can easily be spoted in a dog fight.
#39
Dizasta
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Posted 20 October 2007 - 08:11 AM
The fighter's lock-in range of at least, km: - at opposite courses 120-140
- at overtaking courses 60
Not given at what RCS the lock is.
Yes they wouldn't have that information, however, this subject has been discussed at length and a newly painted Su-30Mki would still have a RCS of 10sqm and would be lock-on by AGP-68 (V)9 from a distance of 195km, head-on. Bars lock-on for a 1-2sqm Viper is a calculated (very close to accurate) estimate and is determined that a Block-52s can lock-on the big Flanker first with AIM-120/C-7s.
........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........
........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........
........ it shall be done, as it is said "Kun Faya Koon
By, Mujahid Hosein (son of Imran Hosein)
#40
Dizasta
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Posted 20 October 2007 - 08:12 AM
You are truly the disasta, no wonder indian goverment made bad decision again and again. seems you know nothing about aviation technology nor the industry. Su30Mki is a like a heavy bear try to fight like a monkey, an indian monkey, too bad. and your Mirage 2k, Mig29 have upgraded? you must be kidding me, you ate too much indian shxt. none of the indian weapon have ever been "upgraded", or why your jets keep crashing everyweek? you indians are too good at making stories, stories that only indians will believe, just a beggers' new cloth, not even cover your donkey ass.
tell us why SU30MKI is a "better" choice, it was for ground attack although no radar mode for that, it is like a blind guy have a knife in his hand, where to go? no india use it as an air superiority aircraft try to fight with J10/J11 or SU27, you out of you mind. indian politician should give you a seat in the goverment toilet.
Wait ............. Dude, did you just took me for an indian??? Are you kiddin me???
........ the Black Flags Army shall rise from Khurasan and commence its earth rumbling march toward Damishque. Any force that tries to come in its path, shall be destroyed with ruthless destruction. Awaiting, upon reaching Damishque, the safron and beads of pearls and the Black Turban that shall lead the Salah of Fajr .........
........ the stones and trees of Lud shall cry out to the Black Flags and tell them of the Munafiqs, Yahuds and Kuffar that are hiding behind them, to come and kill them. That day shall be the day of reckoning, the day of justice, the day when no power shall hold and unfair advantage. The battle shall be fought and won by way of faith ........
........ it shall be done, as it is said "Kun Faya Koon
By, Mujahid Hosein (son of Imran Hosein)
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