694 replies to this topic

[longlake]

The Su27 was originally designed as air superiority fighter mainly for air to air combat. The same time Mig 29 has the similar aerodynamic configuration, but with a shorter range (although still pretty good) and less payload. In the late 80’s and 90’s Soviet Union collapsed and the Sukhoi design bureau lost its founding and ordering from the government. In order to survive Sukhoi modified the su27 to su30, there are a bunch of version, like mkk for China and mki for India, the one India government ordered have canard and vector thrust system. China simply rejected the mki and chose the more mkk for several reasons, first, the SU30 was modified as a dual role fighter bomber just like the F15E, but Sukhoi didn’t have the time and funding to make it a better combination, the SU30 has 2 pilots, modified structure is heavier, and aerodynamic performance was also compromised to ground attack. Secondly, it can load with multi air to surface or air to ship weapons, but the radar and avionic system was not modified properly, which means it has only one efficient mode: air to air, for air to ground or ship modes was simply missing. although the engine thrust was improved a little bit. But the weight increase offset the engine improvement. The SU27/27sk is still the best in air to air combat. The Russian air force didn’t even ordered su30, what they are waiting for is the Su34 which has 2 pilots (side by side) to replace the Su24 as the long range attacking/bomber. So in the Russia air force the SU27 series is for the air to air combat and Su24/34 are for the long range attack missions. In China, the J10, J11, Su27 are for the air to air combat. And it already proved that J-10 is much better than Su27; the FBC-1/1A and the SU30MKK are for the air to ground and air to ship attack missions and you can see this is the same as the Russians.

India ordered 140 Su30mki in the late 90’s, and now it seems to increase the order to 190 but so far only 70 has arrived. The India government makes the payment so slow and Russian only delivered the aircraft when they see cash. As you already known, India use SU30MKI as air superiority aircraft, since it doesn’t has the air to ground capabilities, it can load the weapon which India government have shown you, but it couldn’t find the target.

The India airforce also have Mirage 2000, the technology is about 20 years old, the engine is of low thrust due to the limitation of the French engine technologies and aerodynamic is not as good as F16 nor the JF17 due to its tailless design. The Mig29 not in good shape due to poor maintenance. So they don’t’ have the so called air superiority over Pakistan.
Pakistan already have 4 JF17 as you have seen, the avionics are so advanced, if you look at India SU30mki you side by side you will see how the technology have changed. India claimed they can improve the avionics for the Su30mki, as they have claimed similar things for many years. Don’t expect it will happen in the next 50 years.

According to the agreements between Pak and China, 36 J-10 will be delivered to Pak air force; in case of emergency can “borrow” J-10 from PLA air force directly. J10 has been undergone extensive test flights and exercises in China, it shows the J-10 have clearly an upper hand against Su27 and remember Su27 is still better than the SU30.
India is a poor country and it is pouring money into the military, although it has many goals, but it was limited by budget and India leader’s views. Su30mki was not a very good choice for air to air combat, it is a dual role fighter bomber, it is better than mirage2k and mig29, in terms of aerodynamic performance, it still has problems like, the avionics are a generation away from Pak JF17’s on board system.
For Mirage2k and Mig29, these are the 80’s technologies, and have had no upgrading or what so ever, India claimed they “can” upgrade the avionics and “will” be done in xxxx years, no one believe that. Fro SU30MKI, don’t even have to worry about that, J-10’s are enough, and Su30mki’s maintenance is another nightmare for India, cost so much money, and Russians charging for everything, that is why so far India only got less than 70 after almost 10 years since they sign the purchasing deal.
So, Indians please stop bull shxtting here, and face the fact.
Cheers

[Londo Molari]

I'll admit that with F-16s or J-10s and some AWACS, we can handle Su-30MKI for sure.

But the claims you are making just seem wrong.

The heavier weight of Su-30MKI is countered by canards and thrust vectoring. Its probably even more maneuverable than Su-27. Russia CAN'T buy Su-30MKI even if they wanted to, because it has French and Israeli avionics that are not allowed to Russia. And Russia did not try ordering their own MKI because when the MKI was made, their economy was poor, their military in decline, they could not afford it. Today, it might be a different situation, but with 5000 nukes, Russia doesn't really feel the need for top-of-the-line fighters.

Yes, the Su-30MKI is not some magical unstoppable monster, but its not a joke either.

Until the Su-30MKI arrived, Indian Mig-29s were their front line fighter and were kept in top-top condition. They even had an edge over our F-16s because of their BVR. They are definitely not in bad shape.

The Indians found their Mirage 2000's to be inferior to F-16s, and so they were dedicated to strike role.

[hesidu]

I'll admit that with F-16s or J-10s and some AWACS, we can handle Su-30MKI for sure.

But the claims you are making just seem wrong.

The heavier weight of Su-30MKI is countered by canards and thrust vectoring. Its probably even more maneuverable than Su-27. Russia CAN'T buy Su-30MKI even if they wanted to, because it has French and Israeli avionics that are not allowed to Russia. And Russia did not try ordering their own MKI because when the MKI was made, their economy was poor, their military in decline, they could not afford it. Today, it might be a different situation, but with 5000 nukes, Russia doesn't really feel the need for top-of-the-line fighters.

Yes, the Su-30MKI is not some magical unstoppable monster, but its not a joke either.

Until the Su-30MKI arrived, Indian Mig-29s were their front line fighter and were kept in top-top condition. They even had an edge over our F-16s because of their BVR. They are definitely not in bad shape.

The Indians found their Mirage 2000's to be inferior to F-16s, and so they were dedicated to strike role.

Su-30MKI is good. There is no doubt of that. But there is still some question of that. First, It very hard to integrate so many different system into one fighter. Though, the subsystem of Su-30MKI is excellent, but it's not sure these subsystem can work harmoniously. Second, It quite costly to maintain so many different system. So in the long-term, the state of these fighters would be a question. How many Su-30MKIs will in good condition for combat is still unknow.

[vvvaidya29]

Mr.Longlake...

even if MKI is not capable to deal with J-10 then also we have so many options to counter that threat...we have S-300 PMU and Greenpine radars system to deal with J-10...romours are there that we may even go for S-400 or ArrowII....for ground attack also we have Jaguar Darin II and MIG-27's......M2K for ground attack are also not bad either.....we have lot of BVR capable Bisons which can be used to harass J-10,F16 and JF-17 with help of awacs and other fighters...even MKI's and Fulcrums can be used to harass them in defensive mode.......if Pakistan is on offensive role then surely this can be done....

their Mirages and F-7PG's are very old and I dont think that they will be able to survive against our new generation SAMs'......heck even SA-6 type older SAM's gave NATO airforce a hell of time in serbian war......you always come and underestimate India but the fact is we can protect ourselves......

[Titan_1984]

The Su27 was originally designed as air superiority fighter mainly for air to air combat. The same time Mig 29 has the similar aerodynamic configuration, but with a shorter range (although still pretty good) and less payload. In the late 80’s and 90’s Soviet Union collapsed and the Sukhoi design bureau lost its founding and ordering from the government. In order to survive Sukhoi modified the su27 to su30, there are a bunch of version, like mkk for China and mki for India, the one India government ordered have canard and vector thrust system. China simply rejected the mki and chose the more mkk for several reasons, first, the SU30 was modified as a dual role fighter bomber just like the F15E, but Sukhoi didn’t have the time and funding to make it a better combination, the SU30 has 2 pilots, modified structure is heavier, and aerodynamic performance was also compromised to ground attack. Secondly, it can load with multi air to surface or air to ship weapons, but the radar and avionic system was not modified properly, which means it has only one efficient mode: air to air, for air to ground or ship modes was simply missing. although the engine thrust was improved a little bit. But the weight increase offset the engine improvement. The SU27/27sk is still the best in air to air combat. The Russian air force didn’t even ordered su30, what they are waiting for is the Su34 which has 2 pilots (side by side) to replace the Su24 as the long range attacking/bomber. So in the Russia air force the SU27 series is for the air to air combat and Su24/34 are for the long range attack missions. In China, the J10, J11, Su27 are for the air to air combat. And it already proved that J-10 is much better than Su27; the FBC-1/1A and the SU30MKK are for the air to ground and air to ship attack missions and you can see this is the same as the Russians.

India ordered 140 Su30mki in the late 90’s, and now it seems to increase the order to 190 but so far only 70 has arrived. The India government makes the payment so slow and Russian only delivered the aircraft when they see cash. As you already known, India use SU30MKI as air superiority aircraft, since it doesn’t has the air to ground capabilities, it can load the weapon which India government have shown you, but it couldn’t find the target.

The India airforce also have Mirage 2000, the technology is about 20 years old, the engine is of low thrust due to the limitation of the French engine technologies and aerodynamic is not as good as F16 nor the JF17 due to its tailless design. The Mig29 not in good shape due to poor maintenance. So they don’t’ have the so called air superiority over Pakistan.
Pakistan already have 4 JF17 as you have seen, the avionics are so advanced, if you look at India SU30mki you side by side you will see how the technology have changed. India claimed they can improve the avionics for the Su30mki, as they have claimed similar things for many years. Don’t expect it will happen in the next 50 years.

According to the agreements between Pak and China, 36 J-10 will be delivered to Pak air force; in case of emergency can “borrow” J-10 from PLA air force directly. J10 has been undergone extensive test flights and exercises in China, it shows the J-10 have clearly an upper hand against Su27 and remember Su27 is still better than the SU30.
India is a poor country and it is pouring money into the military, although it has many goals, but it was limited by budget and India leader’s views. Su30mki was not a very good choice for air to air combat, it is a dual role fighter bomber, it is better than mirage2k and mig29, in terms of aerodynamic performance, it still has problems like, the avionics are a generation away from Pak JF17’s on board system.
For Mirage2k and Mig29, these are the 80’s technologies, and have had no upgrading or what so ever, India claimed they “can” upgrade the avionics and “will” be done in xxxx years, no one believe that. Fro SU30MKI, don’t even have to worry about that, J-10’s are enough, and Su30mki’s maintenance is another nightmare for India, cost so much money, and Russians charging for everything, that is why so far India only got less than 70 after almost 10 years since they sign the purchasing deal.
So, Indians please stop bull shxtting here, and face the fact.
Cheers

who wrote the artice?

There are more fools in the world that they wanna seat in the MKI for once like French, English, American etc. And many other fools ordering MKI........

If India wanted could integrate full avionics, sensors, radar, EW system from either Russia, Israel or France. But they gone for mixed systems like French displays, navigations, Israeli avionics, LIT-3 pod, EL/M-8222 pod etc, and Indian systems like Mission computer-1, MC-2, avionics (project V), radar computer, SPJ, RWR, HADF etc. South African ECS (same as in EFT).

[halfemtysoul]

oh! realy i had never understand that my birds are in such bad sape. thanks to imform me.

lol!!!!! dude indians are known to use the best of it wepons and a crab plane based on mig 21(jf-17) and other on levi (j-10) with self boasted tec. are going to counter with one of the best well mantained and morden airpower. (look to other fourm than pak and sino). the orgument should be based on logic and facts and history.

Dude, wheres your cab?

First off, stop being an ignorant dumbass, mig21 and Jf17 have nothing in common. Levi was a project shut down through US pressure because the fighter, not even with the high tech avionics was and now is a beautifull platform for air to air, air to ground and ship (multi-role even). Gave the US aviation industry a run for its money.

Now its in differnet hands. You think your upgraded SU27 (woops SU30 mkis) are something? Wait till we get these customed J10s up there.

And indians are known to use the best of its weapons?? Where the hell have you been? You boys learnt your quality vs quantity lesson back in 65. Dont start halucinating now, your airforce didnt start getting good gear till the 80s.

[bomberstream]

Dude, wheres your cab?

First off, stop being an ignorant dumbass, mig21 and Jf17 have nothing in common. Levi was a project shut down through US pressure because the fighter, not even with the high tech avionics was and now is a beautifull platform for air to air, air to ground and ship (multi-role even). Gave the US aviation industry a run for its money.

Now its in differnet hands. You think your upgraded SU27 (woops SU30 mkis) are something? Wait till we get these customed J10s up there.

And indians are known to use the best of its weapons?? Where the hell have you been? You boys learnt your quality vs quantity lesson back in 65. Dont start halucinating now, your airforce didnt start getting good gear till the 80s.

Just thinking and wishing the other side is crap does not help in real wars.
India knows that PAF is a threat and is thus taking necessary steps.
PAF customises, india customises more.The MRCAs,more phalcons cannot be wished away, by shouting old tech.
Even the oldest Mig will require aircraft to counter, not by shouting old tech.
The PAF does not have infinite resources or aircraft.
Numerical superiority will always matter, j-10 or whatver, will never be in two places at one time.The spread of Indian bases and more no of aircraft gives the IAF more options.
And whay do you forget the Indian Navy, the PAF has to contend with that too.Or will simply shouting old harriers scare it away.
The PAF has always been an air defence force, it simply cannot afford to leave its home exposed for a sustained period since it has a smaller space to defend.
Small works both ways, less to defend, but for the enemy too it means, more target density, and less time over enemy airspace.
That is why even in earlier wars, it is the IAF which has flown more missions and attacked Pak forces more.The IAF has always been very good at ground support.
Consequently it has suffered more losses in nos though when compared with missions, its position is not bad.

http://www.pafcombat...s-of-losses.htm
.
I cannot understand this obsessions with nos, this is not a game.In wars there will always be losses, what matters is support and help to your forces, and accomplishment of war aims.
This has been noted by pak writers themselves.


http://www.defencejo...fightergap1.htm

http://www.defencejo...fightergap2.htm

PAF is taking steps to strenghten itself, and so ith IAF.
Wishing each other away is easy in amatuer forums, not so in real life.

[vvvaidya29]

gr8 reply bomberstream....

[arham]

fact remains that the MKI is nothing but repainted SU-27s wit israeli avionics.

without the israeli avionics the MKI is as good as the rose-II

[airomerix]

That is why even in earlier wars, it is the IAF which has flown more missions and attacked Pak forces more.The IAF has always been very good at ground support.
Consequently it has suffered more losses in nos though when compared with missions, its position is not bad.

http://www.pafcombat...s-of-losses.htm
.
I cannot understand this obsessions with nos, this is not a game.In wars there will always be losses, what matters is support and help to your forces, and accomplishment of war aims.
This has been noted by pak writers themselves.
http://www.defencejo...fightergap1.htm

http://www.defencejo...fightergap2.htm

PAF is taking steps to strenghten itself, and so ith IAF.
Wishing each other away is easy in amatuer forums, not so in real life.

Well yeah ur right!!!
IAF flew more missions and attacked Pakistani forces,
and where as ur abv dumb statment is concerned,
IAF also lost more hi-tec aircrafts and even ur pilots landed ur gnats for surrendering!!
It is said that there is a man behind the gun! it compels to the engagment of a sabre with Mig-21 and the result was the destruction of ur miggie!!!

So always stay comb, see the facts and figures.
Yes i admit that PAF is currently inferior to IAF in terms of equipment but dont forget that our pilots are the one who always buck allll indians out of their sight!
And yeah dont forget our F-16Block 52s and F-16 MLUs which will be inducted very soon. They are the answere to ur flankers!!

[Pak Raptor]

dont forget o'veggiepies that once Babur & Raad with H2's H4's and LGB, HARM - JDAAMS we will have a massive SEAD capability which will save to a great extent - our fighter assets - also our Inshallah Eriyie and P3 - Y8 AWAACS will make our airspace one of the most watched in the world.

Also with purchase of advanced 3-D ground radars and medium and long range SAMs will also make our defence very strong - also AMRAAM will be comin 4 ya sucka.

The navy also with the purchase of U-214 and with MESMA Agostas will give the hindain navy serious incontinence problems.

Pakistan PAINDABAD

[aziqbal]

the answer to everything is the JF17 why? because its a pakisans own fighter

[Best of the Best]

the answer to everything is the JF17 why? because its a pakisans own fighter

Yaar aziqbal bro i love JF-17 as much as you do maybe more and yes if money and more technology os poured into it, the plane would become a 4th generation or perhaps even something superiour to the F-16block50/52 5 to 6 years down the line but i beg to disagree with you on the fact that JF-17 is the answer to everything cause its Pakistani, we still need some europian platforms in the future along with their chinese counter parts.

[bomberstream]

Well yeah ur right!!!
IAF flew more missions and attacked Pakistani forces,
and where as ur abv dumb statment is concerned,
IAF also lost more hi-tec aircrafts and even ur pilots landed ur gnats for surrendering!!
It is said that there is a man behind the gun! it compels to the engagment of a sabre with Mig-21 and the result was the destruction of ur miggie!!!

So always stay comb, see the facts and figures.
Yes i admit that PAF is currently inferior to IAF in terms of equipment but dont forget that our pilots are the one who always buck allll indians out of their sight!
And yeah dont forget our F-16Block 52s and F-16 MLUs which will be inducted very soon. They are the answere to ur flankers!!

BTW in 1965 and 71, PAF had much better aircraft than the IAF.
The americans not only gave PAF the best fighters, but also experts to advises them such as Chuck Yeager.
Still,the Gnat faced modern Sabres equipped with with Radar guided cannons and missiles with just machine guns!

In wars one learns.65 was an eyeopener for IAF, and in 71 it simply checkmated the PAF attacks.Aircraft were kept protected from ground attacks, and IAF was much more in offensive.Pak articles themselves acknowldge this.

Background
In 1971 war, Mirages of PAF carried out impressive interdiction missions against various targets in India and in 1965, the F-86 Sabres carried out many successful attacks against airfields and other targets.
Although some airfield strike missions in 1965 like against Halwara airfield, led by Sqn Ldr S.A. Rafiqui and against Adampur, led by Sqn Ldr M.M. Alam were intercepted, in the ensuing air combat PAF was triumphant.
In 1965 war, the No.14 F-86 Squadron in Dhaka, East Pakistan did successful airfield attack missions against Kalaikunda airbase of IAF, but in 1971 war, this squadron was not in a position to carry out any airfield interdiction mission because this time ten IAF squadrons surrounded it.
Airfield attacks were not as successful in 1971 as compared to 1965 because all enemy planes were hidden in concrete shelters and not under open sky. Perhaps no bunker-buster or special anti-runway weapons were used, whereas IAF used ‘Dibber’ type anti-runway bombs against Tejgaon airbase in Dacca, East Pakistan. Thus the operations of No.14 F-86 squadron came to an end on 6th Dec, 1971.
It was after this event that IAF achieved complete control of skies and started full-fledged ground attacks, leading to the surrender of our troops.
If air cover is not provided to army or navy, they will certainly suffer heavy losses in that particular theatre of war, but if the enemy gains air superiority, then it will lead to national disgrace or even surrender.
http://www.defencejo...dec/counter.htm

But whatver, PAF is a professional airforce,and the PAF has brave men who fought and died for Pak .
The IAF takes it seriously, that is why its modernising.

[aziqbal]

Yaar aziqbal bro i love JF-17 as much as you do maybe more and yes if money and more technology os poured into it, the plane would become a 4th generation or perhaps even something superiour to the F-16block50/52 5 to 6 years down the line but i beg to disagree with you on the fact that JF-17 is the answer to everything cause its Pakistani, we still need some europian platforms in the future along with their chinese counter parts.

yeah bro i competely agree i was just having some fun, but dont u think its more rewarding having own 3rd generation fighter than a imported 4th gen one, in time of war 4th gen become 1st gen because of sanctions!

[spearhead]

well who wrote this bull-#### some buddy wake him up man .............buddy i hear ur mum calling u ....

[_killuminati_]

yeah bro i competely agree i was just having some fun, but dont u think its more rewarding having own 3rd generation fighter than a imported 4th gen one, in time of war 4th gen become 1st gen because of sanctions!

Too much pride is not good.

[JET_Flash]

Long lake.. please post a link or source to a article u post to avoid or provoke unnecessary reactions. Thank you .

[Best of the Best]

yeah bro i competely agree i was just having some fun, but dont u think its more rewarding having own 4rd generation fighter than a imported 4th gen one, in time of war 4th gen become 1st gen because of sanctions!

Yeah to some extant true but bro you see you have to take a certain capability of another aircraft into context i understand what your saying but still we would always need to to import fighters till the day we are capable enough to create our own world class jets, for example look at french they make their own equiptment sell it as well as use it in their arm forces(mirages,Rafale),another example is sweden(JAS 39 Grippen, Viggen) in other words they are self dependend but you see they have an established aviation industory and it will take us something like a decade to be where they are today that too with chinese help when we can make and create our own state of the art aircraft without anybodys help.

[longlake]

You have xxx missile doesn't mean you can compensate the shortcomings of Su30, It was designed as a fighter/bomber not a air superiority fighter, get it?, J10, SU27 and J11 are all dedicated air superiority fighters, so SU30MKI don't have a chance to survive. having a canard doesn't mean it will help anything, for an example, your dick is too small and your wife is not happy, so you tell your wife that your big mouth can do a better BJ, you think your wife will buy it? you ate too much india shxxt.

[Titan_1984]

^^ lol good one.

aziqbal Posted Yesterday, 08:50 PM
the answer to everything is the JF17 why? because its a pakisans own fighter

yeah bro i competely agree i was just having some fun, but dont u think its more rewarding having own 3rd generation fighter than a imported 4th gen one, in time of war 4th gen become 1st gen because of sanctions!

so much self confidence isnot good, u previously said that JF-17 can do everything because its the fighter of the sole nuke power of the muslim world. is it the same case? why an imported 4th generation fighter isnt better than home grown 3rd gen fighter?!!!!!!!!

If i need something better and if i dont have that, must go for imported one.

[XxSilentViruzxX]

The mighty "Divine Wind" or the "Poison Sting of Scorpion" strikes again.

This time, J-10, an aircraft comparable to a Block 40 F-16 at best, is better than a proven and trusted aircraft.

So the F-15, which was originally designed as a Air-Superiority fighter, and is now developed into the F-15E Strike Eagle and its variants, namely the F-15 S, K, I, or the SG, is a bad choice for strike missions?

I think some people need to stop getting high on the divine wind.

[Rooh Afza]

The Su-30 is a good missle launching platform - and thats it. The thing is the size of Texas and its RCS will light up radars screens. Lets see it thrust vector its hugantic self away from a SAM or a AA missile.

[Saeed Khan]

Welcome back longlake. Let the fun begin.

[aziqbal]

so much self confidence isnot good, u previously said that JF-17 can do everything because its the fighter of the sole nuke power of the muslim world. is it the same case? why an imported 4th generation fighter isnt better than home grown 3rd gen fighter?!!!!!!!!

Yes I did and I say again JF17 is best fighter because its fighter of the sole muslim nuclear power the islamic republic of Pakistan dont doubt my posts again

[bojangles]

^^ lol good one.

so much self confidence isnot good, u previously said that JF-17 can do everything because its the fighter of the sole nuke power of the muslim world. is it the same case? why an imported 4th generation fighter isnt better than home grown 3rd gen fighter?!!!!!!!!

If i need something better and if i dont have that, must go for imported one.

Or you could develop a better one. Only problem for India is, they can't even develop the first one (LCA), so I don't think they can develop a better one. And the JF17 is 4th generation.

[vijaytripoli]

STILL WATING FOR THE ARTICLE SOURCE AND LINK!
CHAU

[longlake]

Iaf does not have any edge over Pak, PERIOD. so indians, you shut now. just look at JF-17 avionics system, how beautiful, you can understand how frustrated indians are, you guys are kicking india's ass. SU30MKI is a fighter/bomber with a crippled avionics system, radar is good only for air-air mode, structure/aerodynamics profile are for ground attack, weapon are for air to air. just like you force an indian donkey chasing a tiger, what a joke.

[speedyturtle]

I personally havent gone into su30mki but all i know form what i have read is that it is a lethal machine, yes being a Pakistani supporting our nation and pak i agree we would die for that but i dont see the sense in saying that su30mki is crap and its too big and it cant do anything cause we ALL know it is a very strong aircraft and will be hard to beat, as far as we saying its only good in air to air combat than once our airplanes are all down in air to air combat than what? you saying that they gonna stop flying su30mki once the paf planes are gone? or they just gonna fall of the sky after that? i can understand some of us are saying all these things cause of patriotism but we need to face the facts as well and backup our claims with something.


SPEEDY
enjoy

[speedyturtle]

why an imported 4th generation fighter isnt better than home grown 3rd gen fighter?!!!!!!!!

And i think you need to learn a difference between 3rd and 4th generation aircraft, which world are you living in? ohh i forgot you are bhindian.


SPEEDY
enjoy

[Titan_1984]

And i think you need to learn a difference between 3rd and 4th generation aircraft, which world are you living in? ohh i forgot you are bhindian.
SPEEDY

and u r really from UK!

enjoy

u started flaming and now 'enjoy'. u r really funny mann. let put aside generation u first know what is a fighter aircraft rather than a 'aircraft'.

[vijaytripoli]

titan don,t get angry.
we and all know the capabalities of su-30mki, and thats why all the counteries now want to do the exercise with this beast!
chau

[Dizasta]

The Su27 was originally designed as air superiority fighter mainly for air to air combat. The same time Mig 29 has the similar aerodynamic configuration, but with a shorter range (although still pretty good) and less payload. In the late 80’s and 90’s Soviet Union collapsed and the Sukhoi design bureau lost its founding and ordering from the government. In order to survive Sukhoi modified the su27 to su30, there are a bunch of version, like mkk for China and mki for India, the one India government ordered have canard and vector thrust system.

The indian air force requirement for a heavy air superiority fighter, never really existed. However, upon evaluating its capabilities and a good promotion of the fighter by the Russians, the indians were convinced that this fighter had potential. As an operator of many different platforms, such as the Mirage-2000hs, MiG-29 Fulcrums, MiG-27 Floggers, Harriers (old variants) and Jaguars. The indian air force were open to the Flanker option, to one end alone. This was of a heavy air-superiority fighter, which it didn't have in its inventory. Canards and thrust vectoring were an integral part of the Russian sales pitch to india, as it enhanced the capabilities of the Flankers as an air-superiority fighter.

China simply rejected the mki and chose the more mkk for several reasons, first, the SU30 was modified as a dual role fighter bomber just like the F15E, but Sukhoi didn’t have the time and funding to make it a better combination, the SU30 has 2 pilots, modified structure is heavier, and aerodynamic performance was also compromised to ground attack. Secondly, it can load with multi air to surface or air to ship weapons, but the radar and avionic system was not modified properly, which means it has only one efficient mode: air to air, for air to ground or ship modes was simply missing. although the engine thrust was improved a little bit. But the weight increase offset the engine improvement. The SU27/27sk is still the best in air to air combat. The Russian air force didn’t even ordered su30, what they are waiting for is the Su34 which has 2 pilots (side by side) to replace the Su24 as the long range attacking/bomber. So in the Russia air force the SU27 series is for the air to air combat and Su24/34 are for the long range attack missions. In China, the J10, J11, Su27 are for the air to air combat. And it already proved that J-10 is much better than Su27; the FBC-1/1A and the SU30MKK are for the air to ground and air to ship attack missions and you can see this is the same as the Russians.

China didn't reject or accept the Su-30Mki, it simply wasn't interested in a fighter which had alot of targeted loop-holes in it. Where the Mki uses French and Israeli avionics, which are both subject to European and American sanctions. However China did opt for the Su-30MKKs and utilized its capabilities to add more firepower to its arsenal of fighters, which includes the J-11s (Chinese variant of the Su-27s), the J-10A/Bs, JH-7s, J-8s, JF-17s & H-6 bombers. With Russians rejuvenated defence industry, many options are opening up and China is taking its time in evaluating the best ones available. And for that reason, the Chinese are taking a closer look at the Irbis-E radar to enhance its Flanker fleet's capability.

But most importantly of all, China does not want to rely on 'any' country for its defence requirements and as such, its making rapid advancements in its own defence industries with the likes of J-10 Vanguards show casing at the fore front of modern Chinese war-fighters.

India ordered 140 Su30mki in the late 90’s, and now it seems to increase the order to 190 but so far only 70 has arrived. The India government makes the payment so slow and Russian only delivered the aircraft when they see cash. As you already known, India use SU30MKI as air superiority aircraft, since it doesn’t has the air to ground capabilities, it can load the weapon which India government have shown you, but it couldn’t find the target.

The indian govt, though chosing the Flanker, made a good decision. It made an even better one (possibly based on its air force's choice) of having Israeli and French avionics and ECMs. This considerably enhances the Flanker's survivability in an air to air engagement.

The India airforce also have Mirage 2000, the technology is about 20 years old, the engine is of low thrust due to the limitation of the French engine technologies and aerodynamic is not as good as F16 nor the JF17 due to its tailless design. The Mig29 not in good shape due to poor maintenance. So they don’t’ have the so called air superiority over Pakistan. Pakistan already have 4 JF17 as you have seen, the avionics are so advanced, if you look at India SU30mki you side by side you will see how the technology have changed. India claimed they can improve the avionics for the Su30mki, as they have claimed similar things for many years. Don’t expect it will happen in the next 50 years.

Both their Mirages and Fulcrums are being upgraded. Both are capable fighters as well and when compared to our Mirages and Vipers, its the same story. We too are upgrading and enhancing our fighters with new avionics and ecms. With our Mirage III/Vs being upgraded under the ROSE (Retro-fit Of Strike Element) program with the French company Sagem, at PAC in Pakistan. And the Block-15 Fighting Falcons being upgraded under the MLU (Mid-Life Upgrade) & Falcon Star programs at TUSAS in Turkey. So there isn't any egde there, but both sides have capable fighters.

According to the agreements between Pak and China, 36 J-10 will be delivered to Pak air force; in case of emergency can “borrow” J-10 from PLA air force directly. J10 has been undergone extensive test flights and exercises in China, it shows the J-10 have clearly an upper hand against Su27 and remember Su27 is still better than the SU30. India is a poor country and it is pouring money into the military, although it has many goals, but it was limited by budget and India leader’s views. Su30mki was not a very good choice for air to air combat, it is a dual role fighter bomber, it is better than mirage2k and mig29, in terms of aerodynamic performance, it still has problems like, the avionics are a generation away from Pakistan JF-17’s on board system.

Although I admire your enthusiasm, friend. I would really have to point out that there are significant differences b/w the Su-27 Flankers and the Su-30Mki Flankers. Where the latter uses French and Israeli avionics/ecms, the Su-27s aren't really the post cold-war fighters which could challenge todays Strike Eagles, Typhoons, Rafales & Gripens. For this reason alone, the Russians embarked upon developing a newer (in a list of countless others) variants. However this variant has all the best of all Flanker variants and none of the flaws. This is the Su-35 Flanker, which appeared at the MAKS-2007 air show and was only on static display, as work is still to be completed on it. Su-35s incorporate structural changes in aero-dynamic shaping and composite material, a more powerful engine (with TVC), canards, new radar (most likely, the Irbis-E) and a new ECM suite.

For Mirage2k and Mig29, these are the 80’s technologies, and have had no upgrading or what so ever, India claimed they “can” upgrade the avionics and “will” be done in xxxx years, no one believe that. Fro SU30MKI, don’t even have to worry about that, J-10’s are enough, and Su30mki’s maintenance is another nightmare for India, cost so much money, and Russians charging for everything, that is why so far India only got less than 70 after almost 10 years since they sign the purchasing deal.

One doesn't worry in such matters, rather, alter and pit strategies which would be effective to counter the enemy's moves. Yes, the J-10s are a formidable fighter force and China truely has achieved a milestone its aviation history. This fighter would see maturity in advance design & technology being incorporated in the years to come and many blocks being built. Pakistan is fortunate to have a friend and ally like China and would empower its air force to a greater capability in the future.

So, Indians please stop bull shxtting here, and face the fact.

One more thing, my Chinese friend ...... there is nothing you or I could do about indians bull$hitting. Ever tried to tell a barking dog to shut-up?

[Cougar]

The indian air force requirement for a heavy air superiority fighter, never really existed. However, upon evaluating its capabilities and a good promotion of the fighter by the Russians, the indians were convinced that this fighter had potential. As an operator of many different platforms, such as the Mirage-2000hs, MiG-29 Fulcrums, MiG-27 Floggers, Harriers (old variants) and Jaguars. The indian air force were open to the Flanker option, to one end alone. This was of a heavy air-superiority fighter, which it didn't have in its inventory. Canards and thrust vectoring were an integral part of the Russian sales pitch to india, as it enhanced the capabilities of the Flankers as an air-superiority fighter.
China didn't reject or accept the Su-30Mki, it simply wasn't interested in a fighter which had alot of targeted loop-holes in it. Where the Mki uses French and Israeli avionics, which are both subject to European and American sanctions. However China did opt for the Su-30MKKs and utilized its capabilities to add more firepower to its arsenal of fighters, which includes the J-11s (Chinese variant of the Su-27s), the J-10A/Bs, JH-7s, J-8s, JF-17s & H-6 bombers. With Russians rejuvenated defence industry, many options are opening up and China is taking its time in evaluating the best ones available. And for that reason, the Chinese are taking a closer look at the Irbis-E radar to enhance its Flanker fleet's capability.

But most importantly of all, China does not want to rely on 'any' country for its defence requirements and as such, its making rapid advancements in its own defence industries with the likes of J-10 Vanguards show casing at the fore front of modern Chinese war-fighters.
The indian govt, though chosing the Flanker, made a good decision. It made an even better one (possibly based on its air force's choice) of having Israeli and French avionics and ECMs. This considerably enhances the Flanker's survivability in an air to air engagement.
Both their Mirages and Fulcrums are being upgraded. Both are capable fighters as well and when compared to our Mirages and Vipers, its the same story. We too are upgrading and enhancing our fighters with new avionics and ecms. With our Mirage III/Vs being upgraded under the ROSE (Retro-fit Of Strike Element) program with the French company Sagem, at PAC in Pakistan. And the Block-15 Fighting Falcons being upgraded under the MLU (Mid-Life Upgrade) & Falcon Star programs at TUSAS in Turkey. So there isn't any egde there, but both sides have capable fighters.
Although I admire your enthusiasm, friend. I would really have to point out that there are significant differences b/w the Su-27 Flankers and the Su-30Mki Flankers. Where the latter uses French and Israeli avionics/ecms, the Su-27s aren't really the post cold-war fighters which could challenge todays Strike Eagles, Typhoons, Rafales & Gripens. For this reason alone, the Russians embarked upon developing a newer (in a list of countless others) variants. However this variant has all the best of all Flanker variants and none of the flaws. This is the Su-35 Flanker, which appeared at the MAKS-2007 air show and was only on static display, as work is still to be completed on it. Su-35s incorporate structural changes in aero-dynamic shaping and composite material, a more powerful engine (with TVC), canards, new radar (most likely, the Irbis-E) and a new ECM suite.
One doesn't worry in such matters, rather, alter and pit strategies which would be effective to counter the enemy's moves. Yes, the J-10s are a formidable fighter force and China truely has achieved a milestone its aviation history. This fighter would see maturity in advance design & technology being incorporated in the years to come and many blocks being built. Pakistan is fortunate to have a friend and ally like China and would empower its air force to a greater capability in the future.
One more thing, my Chinese friend ...... there is nothing you or I could do about indians bull$hitting. Ever tried to tell a barking dog to shut-up?

Couldnt have commented better!

[Dizasta]

On the note of air-superiority, Pakistan Air Force is obtaining a credible deterrent against the Flanker and that is in the shape of Vipers (Block-52+s) and Vanguards. In the beyond visual sphere, Vipers would prove to be more than a match for the Flankers, as the competitive edge of the AGP-68 (V)9 radar and the RCS of the Block-52s is the right combination to hold the advantage in a BVR combat. Here's a better look at things:


The "standard" target in US is with 1 sqm RCS! So the range (110 km for the APG 68 (V)9 and ~150 km for the APG 80 are relative to this RCS.

For a 10 sqm target (Su 30/F 15), this would translate into:

- Detection range of the APG 68(V) 9 for a Su 30 like target: 195 km
- Detection range of the APG 80 for a Su 30-like target: 266 km.

- On the other hand, the same for the Russian Bars relative to an F 16-like target is 106 km.

[JET_Flash]

- On the other hand, the same for the Russian Bars relative to an F 16-like target is 106 km.

"Air-to-air" mode
The fighter's lock-in range of at least, km: - at opposite courses 120-140
- at overtaking courses 60

Not given at what RCS the lock is.

[longlake]

On the note of air-superiority, Pakistan Air Force is obtaining a credible deterrent against the Flanker and that is in the shape of Vipers (Block-52+s) and Vanguards. In the beyond visual sphere, Vipers would prove to be more than a match for the Flankers, as the competitive edge of the AGP-68 (V)9 radar and the RCS of the Block-52s is the right combination to hold the advantage in a BVR combat. Here's a better look at things:
The "standard" target in US is with 1 sqm RCS! So the range (110 km for the APG 68 (V)9 and ~150 km for the APG 80 are relative to this RCS.

For a 10 sqm target (Su 30/F 15), this would translate into:

- Detection range of the APG 68(V) 9 for a Su 30 like target: 195 km
- Detection range of the APG 80 for a Su 30-like target: 266 km.

- On the other hand, the same for the Russian Bars relative to an F 16-like target is 106 km.

My dear india Dizasta:
You are truly the disasta, no wonder indian goverment made bad decision again and again. seems you know nothing about aviation technology nor the industry. Su30Mki is a like a heavy bear try to fight like a monkey, an indian monkey, too bad. and your Mirage 2k, Mig29 have upgraded? you must be kidding me, you ate too much indian shxt. none of the indian weapon have ever been "upgraded", or why your jets keep crashing everyweek? you indians are too good at making stories, stories that only indians will believe, just a beggers' new cloth, not even cover your donkey ass.
tell us why SU30MKI is a "better" choice, it was for ground attack although no radar mode for that, it is like a blind guy have a knife in his hand, where to go? no india use it as an air superiority aircraft try to fight with J10/J11 or SU27, you out of you mind. indian politician should give you a seat in the goverment toilet.

[Best of the Best]

My dear india Dizasta:
You are truly the disasta, no wonder indian goverment made bad decision again and again. seems you know nothing about aviation technology nor the industry. Su30Mki is a like a heavy bear try to fight like a monkey, an indian monkey, too bad. and your Mirage 2k, Mig29 have upgraded? you must be kidding me, you ate too much indian shxt. none of the indian weapon have ever been "upgraded", or why your jets keep crashing everyweek? you indians are too good at making stories, stories that only indians will believe, just a beggers' new cloth, not even cover your donkey ass.
tell us why SU30MKI is a "better" choice, it was for ground attack although no radar mode for that, it is like a blind guy have a knife in his hand, where to go? no india use it as an air superiority aircraft try to fight with J10/J11 or SU27, you out of you mind. indian politician should give you a seat in the goverment toilet.

You need to get your facts straight Dizasta is a Pakistani and so am i before calling Dizasta an indian you should know he is the most biggest anti-indian guy on the forum and he was just giving his point of view on the flankers, i love chinese since they are our long lasting and time tested allies and china has always been here for us Pakistani's but sorry my chinese friend according to your logic everything india has is inferiour just because india has it by your logic even if india has a F-22 you would call it crap.

SU-30MKI is quite a amazing machine the only problem is its a bit over rated indian tend to show it as a F-22 killer or talk non-sence like a whole squadren of MKI's can take on PAF, where MKI is so great it also holds its disadvantages, huge size,big @ss RCS, very hard to maintain, can easily be spoted in a dog fight.

[Dizasta]

"Air-to-air" mode
The fighter's lock-in range of at least, km: - at opposite courses 120-140
- at overtaking courses 60

Not given at what RCS the lock is.

Yes they wouldn't have that information, however, this subject has been discussed at length and a newly painted Su-30Mki would still have a RCS of 10sqm and would be lock-on by AGP-68 (V)9 from a distance of 195km, head-on. Bars lock-on for a 1-2sqm Viper is a calculated (very close to accurate) estimate and is determined that a Block-52s can lock-on the big Flanker first with AIM-120/C-7s.

[Dizasta]

My dear india Dizasta:
You are truly the disasta, no wonder indian goverment made bad decision again and again. seems you know nothing about aviation technology nor the industry. Su30Mki is a like a heavy bear try to fight like a monkey, an indian monkey, too bad. and your Mirage 2k, Mig29 have upgraded? you must be kidding me, you ate too much indian shxt. none of the indian weapon have ever been "upgraded", or why your jets keep crashing everyweek? you indians are too good at making stories, stories that only indians will believe, just a beggers' new cloth, not even cover your donkey ass.
tell us why SU30MKI is a "better" choice, it was for ground attack although no radar mode for that, it is like a blind guy have a knife in his hand, where to go? no india use it as an air superiority aircraft try to fight with J10/J11 or SU27, you out of you mind. indian politician should give you a seat in the goverment toilet.

Wait ............. Dude, did you just took me for an indian??? Are you kiddin me???