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[sobank]

http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_151_...f__a_prover.htm

AYESHA’s AGE: THE MYTH OF  A PROVERBIAL WEDDING EXPOSED                                      

T.O Shanavas MD
Vice President
Islamic Research Foundation International, Inc.
7102 W. Shefford Lane
Louisville, KY 40242-6462
Website: http://www.irfi.org





            A Christian friend asked me once, “Will you marry your seven year old daughter to a fifty year old man?” I kept my silence. He continued, “If you would not, how can you approve the marriage of an innocent seven year old, Ayesha, with your Prophet?” I told him, “I don’t have an answer to your question at this time.” My friend smiled and left me with a thorn in the heart of my faith. Most Muslims answer that such marriages were accepted in those days. Otherwise, people would have objected to Prophet’s marriage with Ayesha. However, such an explanation would be gullible only for those who are naïve enough to believe it. But unfortunately, I was not satisfied with the answer.



            The Prophet (PBUH) was an exemplary man. All his actions were most virtuous so that we, Muslims, can emulate them. However, most people in our Islamic Center of Toledo, including me, would not think of betrothing our seven years daughter to a fifty-two year-old man. If a parent agrees to such a wedding, most people, if not all, would look down upon the father and the old husband.



            In 1923, registrars of marriage in Egypt were instructed not to register and issue official certificates of marriage for brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years of age. Eight years later, the Law of the Organization and Procedure of Sheriah courts of 1931 consolidated the above provision by not hearing the marriage disputes involving brides less than sixteen and grooms less than eighteen years old. (REF: Women in Muslim Family Law, John Esposito, 1982). It shows that even in the Muslim majority country of Egypt the child marriages are unacceptable.



            So, I believed, without solid evidence other than my reverence to my Prophet (pbuh), that the stories of the marriage of seven-year-old Ayesha (ra) to fifty-year-old Prophet are only myths. However, my long pursuit in search of the truth on this matter proved my intuition correct. My Prophet was a gentleman. And He did not marry an innocent seven or nine year old girl.



The age of Ayesha (ra) has been erroneously reported in the hadith literature. Furthermore, I think that the narratives reporting this event are highly unreliable. Some of the hadith regarding Ayesha’s age at the time of her wedding with prophet are problematic. I present the following evidences against the acceptance of the fictitious story by Hisham ibn `urwah and to clear the name of my Prophet (pbuh) as an irresponsible old man preying on an innocent little girl.



EVIDENCE  # 1  Reliability of Source

Most of these narratives printed in the Hadith books are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. First of all, more people than just one, two or three should logically have reported. It is strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. The origins of the report of the narratives of this event are people from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medinah for seventy-one years.



            Tehzibu'l-tehzib, one of the most well known books on the life and the reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) report that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah:

" He [Hisham] is highly reliable, his narratives are acceptable, except what he narrated after moving over to Iraq." (REF: Tehzi'bu'l-tehzi'b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala'ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, 15th century.  Vol 11, p. 50).



It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq:

“I have been told that Malik [ibn Anas] objected on those narratives of Hisham which were reported through people of Iraq." (REF: Tehzi'b u'l-tehzi'b, Ibn Hajar Al-`asqala'ni, Dar Ihya al-turath al-Islami, Vol.11, p. 50)



            Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, another book on the life sketches of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports:

"When he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly" (REF: Mizanu'l-ai`tidal, Al-Zahbi, Al-Maktabatu'l-athriyyah, Sheikhupura, Pakistan, Vol. 4, p. 301)



CONCLUSION: Based on these references, Hisham’s memory was failing and his narratives while in Iraq were unreliable. So, his narrative of Ayesha’s marriage and age are unreliable.
Chronology

            Now let me state some of the pertinent dates in the history of Islam:


            Jahilliyya                                                                       Before Revelation

            First Revelation                                                                 610 CE

            Abu Baker accepts Islam                                                    610 CE

            Public preaching                                                                 613 CE

            Emigration to Abyssenia                                                     615 CE

            Umar bin al Khattab accept Islam                                       616 CE

            Generally accepted betrothal of Ayesha                                620 CE

            Hijarah                                                                              622 CE

            Generally accepted year of Ayesha living

            with Prophet                                                                 623 or 624CE (1 or 2 AH)

                                                          
EVIDENCE  # 2  Betrothal

            According to Tabari (also according to Hisham ibn ‘urwah, Ibn Hunbal and Ibn Sad), Ayesha was betrothed at seven years of age and began to cohabit with Prophet at the age of nine years. However, in another work, Al- Tabari says:

"All four of his [Abu Bakr's] children were born of his two wives -- the names of

whom we have already mentioned -- during the pre-Islamic period."(REF: Tarikhu'l-umam wa'l-mamlu'k, Al-Tabari (died 922), Vol. 4, p. 50, Arabic, Dara'l-fikr, Beirut, 1979)



If Ayesha was betrothed in 620 CE (at the age of 7 years) and started to live with Prophet in 624 CE or 2 AH (at the age of nine years), she was born in 613 CE {(Year of living with Prophet MINUS Ayesha’a age at that time of living with Prophet EQUALS the date of birth of Ayesha (624CE – 9 yrs = 613 CE)}.  So, based on one account of Al-Tabari the numbers show that Ayesha must have born (613 CE) three years after the beginning of revelation (610 CE). And yet another place Tabari says that Ayesha was born in Pre-Islamic time (in Jahilliyyah).  If she were born in pre-Islamic time (before 610 CE), she would have be at least 14 years old.  So, Tabari contradicts himself.

CONCLUSION:  Al-Tabari is unreliable in the matter of determining Ayesha’s age.


Contradicting Reports

EVIDENCE # 3  The Age of Ayesha in Relation to the Age of Fathima.



            According to According to Ibn Hajar,

“ Fatimah (ra) was born at the time the Ka`bah was rebuilt, when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old... she (Fatimah) was five years older that Ayesha (ra).”  (REF: Al-isabah fi tamyizi'l-sahabah, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, Vol. 4, P. 377,  Maktabatu'l-Riyadh al-haditha, al-Riyadh, 1978)



So, based on Ibn Hajar, Fathima was born when Prophet was 35 years old and Ayesha was 5 years younger than Fathima. If Ibn Hajar’s statement is factual, Ayesha was born when Prophet was forty years old (Prophet’s age at the birth of Fathima PLUS 5 years = 40 years).  If Ayesha was married to Prophet when he was 52 years old, Ayesha’ age at marriage would be 12 years {(Prophet’s age at the time of marriage MINUS Prophet’s age at Ayesha’s birth (52 yrs – 40 years = 12 yrs)}.  



CONCLUSION: Ibn Hajar, Tabari an Ibn Hisham and Ibn Humbal contradict each other.  So, the marriage of Ayesha at seven years of age is a myth.


EVIDENCE # 4    The Age of Ayesha in Relation to the Age of Asma

            According to Abda'l-Rahman ibn abi zanna'd:

“Asma (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha. (REF: Siyar A`la'ma'l-nubala', Al-Zahabi, Vol. 2, p. 289, Arabic, Mu'assasatu'l-risalah, Beirut, 1992)



     According to Ibn Kathir:

            "She [Asma] was elder to her sister [Ayesha] by ten years". (REF: Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir, Vol. 8, p. 371, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)

    

     According to Ibn Kathir:

            "She [Asma] saw the killing of her son during that year [i.e. 73 AH], as we have already mentioned, and five days later she herself died. According to other narratives she died not after five days but ten or twenty or a few days over twenty or a hundred days later. The most well known narrative is that of hundred days later. At the time of her death, she was 100 years old." (REF: Al-Bidayah wa'l-nihayah, Ibn Kathir (died 1333), Vol. 8, Pg. 372, Dar al-fikr al-`arabi, Al-jizah, 1933)



     According to Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani:

            "She [Asma (ra)] lived a hundred years and died in 73 or 74 AH." (REF: Taqribu'l-tehzib, Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani, Pg 654, Arabic, Bab fi'l-nisa', al-harfu'l-alif, Lucknow)



            According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). If Asma was 100 years old in 73 AH, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijra { Asma’s age MINUS  73 hijrah EQUALS the age of Asma at the time of Hijrah( 100 – 73 or 74 = 27 or 28)}.



If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of Hijrah, Ayesha (ra), being younger by 10 years, should have been 17 or 18 years old {Asma’s age at the time of Hijarah MINUS the age difference between Asma and Ayesha EQUALS the age of Ayesha at the time of Hijarh (27 or 28 –10 = 17 or 18 yrs)}. Thus, Ayesha (ra), being 17 or 18 years of at the time of Hijra, she started to cohabit with Prophet between 19 to 20 years old (The Age of Ayesha at the time of Hijra + the year of Ayesha cohabiting with Prophet (19-20 + 1-2 Hijra) = The Age of Ayesha when she cohabit with Prophet (19 or 20 years).



            Based on Hajar, Ibn Katir, and Abda'l-Rahman ibn abi zanna'd, age of Ayesha at the time living with Prophet would be 19or 20 years.  In evidence # 3, Ibn Hajar suggests that Ayesha is 12 years old and in evidence # 4 he contradicts himself with a seventeen or eighteen-year-old Ayesha (ra).  What is the correct age, twelve or eighteen?

CONCLUSION:  Ibn Hajar is an unreliable source for Ayesha’s age.


EVIDENCE # 5 Battles of Badr and Uhud

A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in Badr is given in Muslim, Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Bab karahiyati'l-isti`anah fi'l-ghazwi bikafir. Ayesha (ra) while narrating the journey to Badr and one of the important events that took place in that journey says:  "when we reached Shajarah". It is quite obvious from these words that Ayesha (ra) was with the group travelling towards Badr.

A narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of `uhud is given in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-jihad wa'l-siyar, Bab Ghazwi'l-nisa' wa qitalihinna ma`a'lrijal:

"Anas reports that On the day of Uhud, people could not stand their ground

around the Prophet (pbuh). [On that day,] I saw Ayesha (ra) and Umm-i-Sulaim

(ra), they had pulled their dress up from their feet [to avoid any hindrance in their movement]."

CONCLUSION: Ayesha (ra) was present in the battles of Uhud and Badr.

          

            It is narrated in Bukhari, Kitabu'l-maghazi, Bab ghazwati'l-khandaq wa hiya'l-ahza'b:

"Ibn `umar (ra) states that the Prophet (pbuh) did not permit me to participate in Uhud, as at that time, I was fourteen years old. But on the day of Khandaq, when I was fifteen years old, the Prophet (pbuh) permitted my participation."



Summary: Based on the above narratives, (a) the children below 15 years were sent back and were not allowed to participate in the battle of `uhud, (b) Ayesha participated in the battles of Badr and Uhud



CONCLUSION:  Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine old but at least 15 years old or older. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden on them. This account is another contradiction about Ayesha’s age.


EVIDANCE # 6  Surat al Qamar

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. But according to another narrative in Bukhari (kitabu'l-tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said:



"I was a young girl (jariyah)" when Surah Al-Qamar was revealed. (REF: Sahih Bukhari, kitabu'l-tafsir, Bab Qaulihi Bal al-sa`atu Maw`iduhum wa'l-sa`atu adha' wa amarr)

The 54th surah of the Qur'an was revealed eight years before Hijrah (REF: The Bounteous Koran, M.M. Khatib, 1985). So, it was revealed in 614 CE {Year of Hijrah MINUS year of revelation of Al Qamar (622 CE – 8 = 614 CE)}. If Ayesha started living with Prophet (pbuh) at the age of nine in 623 CE or 624 CE, she was a newborn infant (a sibyah) {Year of Ayesha living with Prophet MINUS age of Ayesha when she started to live with Prophet (623 CE or 624 CE– 9 years=614 0r 615) at the time the Surah Al-Qamar was revealed.



According to the above tradition, Ayesha (ra) was actually a young girl (jariyah), not an infant (sibyah) in the year of revelation of Al Qamar. “Jariyah” means young playful girl (Lane’s Arabic English Lexicon). So, Ayesha, being a Jariyah not a sibyah (infant), must be somewhere between 6-13 years at the time of revelation of Al-Qamar, and thereby she must have been 14-21 years (6-13 + 8= 14-21 years) at the time she married Prophet.

CONCLUSION: This tradition also contradicts the marriage of Ayesha at the age of nine.


EVIDANCE # 7. Arabic Term

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices that she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked the identity of the bikr (virgin), Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name.



All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "Bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year-old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady without conjugal experience prior to marriage, as we understand the word, virgin, in English.  Therefore, obviously a nine-year-old girl is not a "lady" (Bikr). (REF:  Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Vol. 6, p. .210, Arabic, Dar Ihya al-turath al-`arabi, Beirut.)



CONCLUSION: The literal meaning of the word, Bikr (virgin), in the above Hadith is adult women with no sexual experience prior to marriage. Therefore, Ayesha was an adult woman at the time of her marriage.



EVIDENCE # 8. The Qur’anic Text

            All Muslims agree that the Qur’an is the book of guidance. So, we need seek the guidance from the Qur’an to clear the smoke and the confusion created by the eminent men of the classical period of Islam in the matter of the age of Ayesha at her marriage. Does the Qur’an allow or disallow marriage of an immature child of seven years of age?



There are no verses that explicitly allow such marriage. However, I found a verse that guides us in our duty to raise a child deprived with the death of one or both parents.  I believe that guidance of the Qur’an on the topic of raising orphans is also valid in the case of our own children.  The Verse states:

“And make not over your property (property of the orphan), which Allah had made a (means of) support for you, to the weak of understanding, and maintain them out of it, clothe them and give them good education. And test them until they reach the age of marriage. Then if you find them maturity of intellect, make over them their property……” (Qur’an 4:5-6).



            In the matter of children who has lost a parent, a Muslim is ordered to (a) feed them, (b) clothe them, © educate them, and (d) test them for maturity “until the age of marriage” before entrusting them with management of finances.  Here the Qur’anic verse demands meticulous proof of their intellectual and physical maturity by objective test results before the age of marriage in order to entrust their property to them.



In the light of the above verses, no responsible Muslims would hand over financial management to a seven or nine year old immature girl. If we cannot trust a seven-year-old to manage the financial matters, she cannot be intellectually or physically fit for marriage also. Ibn Hambal (REF:Musnad Ahmad ibn Hambal, vol.6, p 33 and 99) claims that Ayesha at the age of nine was rather more interested to play with toy-horses than to take up the responsible task of a wife. Therefore, I would not believe that Abu Baker, a great Moimin, would betroth his immature seven-year-old daughter to fifty-year-old Prophet. Similarly, I would not believe that Prophet (pbuh) would marry a seven-year-old immature girl.



Another important duty demanded from the guardian of a child is “to educate them.” Let us ask the question, “How many of us in the Islamic Center believe that we can educate our children satisfactorily before they reach the age of seven or nine years?”

The answer is “none.” It is a logically impossible task to educate a child satisfactorily before the child attains the age of seven.  Then, how can we believe that Ayesha was educated satisfactorily at the claimed age of seven at the time of her marriage? Abu Baker (ra) was a better judicious man than all of us. So, he definitely would have judged that Ayesha was a child at heart and was not satisfactorily educated as demanded by the Qur’an.  He would not have married her to any one.  If a proposal of marrying the immature and yet to be educated seven-year-old Ayesha came to Prophet (pbuh) he would have rejected it outright because neither Prophet (pbuh) nor Abu Baker (ra) would violate any clause in the Qur’an.



CONCLUSION: Marriage of Ayesha (ra) at the age of seven years would violate the maturity clause or requirement of the Qur’an. Therefore, the story of the marriage of the seven-year-old immature Ayesha is a myth.

EVIDENCE # 9. Consent in Marriage

            A women must be consulted and get her permission to make the marriage valid (REF:Mishakat al Masabiah, translation by James Robson, Vol. I, p.665). So, in the Muslim marriage, a credible permission from women is a pre-requisite for the marriage to be valid. By any stretch of imagination, the permission by a seven-year-old immature girl cannot be a valid authorization for marriage. It is unconceivable to me that Abu Baker, an intelligent man, would take seriously the permission of a seven-year-old girl to marry a fifty-year-old man. Similarly, Prophet would not have accepted permission given by an immature girl who, according to Muslim, took her toys with her when she went live with Prophet (pbuh).

CONCLUSION: Prophet (pbuh) did not marry seven-year-old Ayesha because it would have violated the requirement of valid permission clause of Islamic Marriage Decree.  Therefore, Prophet married intellectually and physically mature Lady Ayesha.



Summary: It was neither an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as seven or nine years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.

Obviously, the narrative of the marriage of nine year old Ayesha by Hisham ibn `urwah cannot be held true when it is contradicted by many other narratives reported above. Moreover, I see absolutely no reason to accept the narrative of Hisham ibn `urwah as true when other scholars including Malik ibn Anas view his narrative, while in Iraq, as unreliable.



The quotations from Tabari, Bukhari and Muslim show they contradict each other regarding Ayesha's (ra) age. Furthermore, many of these scholars contradict themselves in their own records. Thus, the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of the marriage is not reliable due to the clear contradictions seen in the works of classical scholars of Islam. Therefore, I see absolutely no reason to believe that the information on Ayesha's (ra) age is accepted as true when there are adequate grounds to reject it as myth. Moreover, the guidance from the Qur’an is against the marriage of immature girls and boys and also against entrusting them with responsibilities.



ANSWER TO MY CHRISTIAN FRIEND: We do not know the exact age at the time of her marriage due to lack of reliable records. Based on the evidences presented above, the marriage of fifty-two-year-old Prophet (pbuh) with Ayesha (ra) at nine year of age is only a proverbial myth. On the contrary, Ayesha (ra) was an intellectually and physically mature Bikr (virgin = adult unmarried woman with no sexual experience) when she married Prophet (pbuh).

[seacad]

Very good post, you should also keep in mind that each marriage had a significant purpose.  And Ayesha (RA) was responsible for narrating over 2000 hadiths I believe (May Allah Forgive me if I am wrong). These hadiths are what make the true Muslim beautiful

ps: When the Prophet (SAW) wanted to convey for the believing women to wear hijab, he didnt just go out and say "You must wear the hijab"

He was shy, and instead had relayed the message through Ayesha (RA) and said "Tell the believing women that it is better for them if they wear hijab" or something like that (May Allah Forgive me if I am wrong, as I'm just trying to say as much I can remember correctly)

[Saqr]

This white man coverted to Islam, well at this workshop, one of my friends spoke with the man, and the man, told the sisters/girls there that "all men are lustful swines/piggies", he added that "women *wearing hijab* protect men from their own desires".

[ThE_UnReAcHaBLe]

Nice job Sobank   even i was very confused about this issue . It used to cause me a lot of headech and creat a lot of doubts about Islam . And to the extreme  it even made me think about that Islam could be false and Mohammad(pbuh) was not a true Prophet of God (nauzubillah) . But i kept my faith, waiting for a satisfactory answere and believed that such a thing can never be done by a Perferct man like our Prophet(pbuh) , who was admired , not only by  friends but as well as by his enemies . You cleared mine and ofcourse a lot of Muslim brother's one of the biggest misconception abot Islam .Finally, i thank u again for sharing the article with us .
Keep up the good work .May Allah guides us to the right path

WASALAM

[ak_m_f]

I am printing and keeping this, I will slam this in the face of the next jehovah witness that comes to my door asking stupid question..... Good job sobank  

[must7]

Sobank .. excellent work and research..

I for one did not believe whatever was claimed by my friends ... nor did I seek any Alem's advise because I know Islam is a complete faith as in my younger day's I use to question lots of Islamic statements and later on found it that they were much much attached to reality and if I do research will find the answer .. Unfortunatley I did not do the research .. however you did it and proved my belief ..

So .. thanks again.

[sobank]

Well let me take this oppertunity to say something.

3 years back i was student at mcmaster university. already taken some courses in critical reading and logic along with some psychology and women studies. And one day someone slamed this question on my face with sources that everyone loves to quote as trustworthy. well then for next few days i was on internet constantly slaming my head with one link to another and wherever i go i see the same thing 9 years and quoting same thing. The jew/christians/ hindus and sikh (yup that is right sikhs) propoganda and filthy talk and propoganda everywhere. Many days i was just living on faith but it was constantly weakning. I just keep telling myself "no its not true". I am sure u guys went through the same thing. Only thing was in my mind that how could it be. its impossible. At that time internet did not have any artical. lucky for me that i came across one of the book that people didnt quote but was by the same author. I couldnt read it myself as it was in urdu of 1800. My uncle translated for me and bingo. The  book described the ghazwa badar and mentioned hazrat ayesha. I found the loop hole. And two more days i found a full artical by a muslim scholar who was also political leader of muslims in pre partition time. not saving that resource was biggest mistake of my life. but i finally found the truth.

I read a book by syed ameer ali which said that a very well known hadith collector said on his death bed that he fabricated many of hadiths and even now his books are taken by some people as resource. now this book by syed amir ali is actually written way back   in early 1900 and is called Spirit of Islam. That thing stuck to my mind and this whole age issue just proved to me one thing. Dont believe anything that is described by anyone regarding prophet. If these people can make a major slip on this issue, God knows what else mistakes they must have made on other issues.

Its not simply a case of misquoted age. Its a major slip in historical data collection approach which one can easily figure out if they one have used the real source and logic.

So next time you hear a hadith which sounds fishy and whose source was not personally present than go to quran. your first source should only be quran. Start evaluating the sources or you gonna end up confused like i was.

One thing i achieved is stronger faith and i admit i am ashamed of myself for even being bothered by this. I should have known He(prophet PBUH)  was, is and will be the most complete personality universe ever gonna see.

today you are going to find many resources on the internet which basically quote the same artical which is actually written by some one else in pre partition time but it was revisted by some other moulana and he researched the whole thing again and included in his book.

One request
For me age question was decided 3 years ago but this one guy raise a question over on this forum again and i had to hit the internet to find the same artical that i found 3 years ago. though i couldnt find that artical but i found this one. Though this artical was not my source of findings but this guy has done amazing job in putting it together. I will be really great  if you drop him a line of appericiation for this.

thanks guys.

[sobank]

I am printing and keeping this, I will slam this in the face of the next jehovah witness that comes to my door asking stupid question..... Good job sobank 

oye i have the same problem. my mother doesnt speak english and she thought that the black lady is just being friendly when she came into our apartment. But beta g guess what i got rid of her.  

man they are some persistant people. Jaan he nhein chortay. and they have flyers and books in urdu. so my mother excuse of not knowing english did not work.


do this. just ask her why should i change my religion if i believe in the same kind of moral values.  and then next time when she comes just leave the door close dont open it and talk loudly inside. so they know you are in but not opening the door for them.

works like a charm. By the way i have to threat the women to call the cops if they dont stop calling me  

[haroons222]

oye i have the same problem. my mother doesnt speak english and she thought that the black lady is just being friendly when she came into our apartment. But beta g guess what i got rid of her. 

man they are some persistant people. Jaan he nhein chortay. and they have flyers and books in urdu. so my mother excuse of not knowing english did not work.


do this. just ask her why should i change my religion if i believe in the same kind of moral values.  and then next time when she comes just leave the door close dont open it and talk loudly inside. so they know you are in but not opening the door for them.

works like a charm. By the way i have to threat the women to call the cops if they dont stop calling me 

I'll second that
These two guys came to our house and my younger bro took a book,just out of TAKALUF.Then they just started showing up every weekend and my bro started working on weekends,I would always open up and tell them that he wasnt there.Now they probably thought i was Bullshitting,but the pricks kept coming back for abt 2 months.HOLY Crap.

Yaar the thing i find funny is that,why dont they look at their own society first,the so called christians here probably dont follow one of the 10 commandments,i mean if all else they dont follow the adultery thing:P.
But they kow its a lost cause,and thats why the come to other ppl.And most of them are trained for propaganda bullshit just like that.Abhi to mein hairaan hoon neeco nay is thread mein moon nahi mara,werna baato to saala paadri type lagta hai.

About the age issues,they also talk abt 12 marriages,Jews and Christians.I wonder if we shud ask them what they have to say abt the 100s of wives of King Solomon(Hazrat Suleman) whom we all 3 believe to be a Prophet.

[f_mig_su]

About the age issues,they also talk abt 12 marriages,Jews and Christians.I wonder if we shud ask them what they have to say abt the 100s of wives of King Solomon(Hazrat Suleman) whom we all 3 believe to be a Prophet.

me too man, They are so damn annoying

[CounterPunch]

brothers this forum is not for discussing such things...no one is well versed in ISLAMIC history, jurisprudence, culture, Quran or Hadiths.

such details should be asked from some ALLAMA.  here there is eevry possibility that u will be misled.  These are sensitive issues..and should be taken full care of.

If at all we have any such problems better search internet for authentic ISLAMIC SITES or personally ask some ALLAMA SAHIB and stop others from spreading misinformation.

thanx alot.

[sobank]

First of all you dont have to be allama to figure out the mistakes in the history. I'm sorry for me there is no allama trustworthy. All are opinions and you should be able to judge which one is correct based on logic and historically proven facts.

We have to walk away from the trust allama attitude. They are human beings with possible prejuduices and flaws. Every statement should be episotmolgically evaluated. For example i refrenced Syed Amir ali book. And i can tell you that guy is biased more by shia opinion on some opinions regarding hilafat. (no sect base critic intended)
Maulana Maudodee is said to take articals by a book of another allama without giving any credit in his book tafheem-ul-quran. (true or not i will tell you in few days as i have to find out the  book name that was said to be the  source of articals).

The last example might not be true but lets say hypothetically its true than if one of your  acclaimed maulana is professionally corrupt who do you want to trust next.

Islam has stopped progressing since we left it for maulana. Lets hope we start taking more object oriented approach in Islamic education.

[haroons222]

brothers this forum is not for discussing such things...no one is well versed in ISLAMIC history, jurisprudence, culture, Quran or Hadiths.

such details should be asked from some ALLAMA.  here there is eevry possibility that u will be misled.  These are sensitive issues..and should be taken full care of.

If at all we have any such problems better search internet for authentic ISLAMIC SITES or personally ask some ALLAMA SAHIB and stop others from spreading misinformation.

thanx alot.

Sobank,alhtough i think that Scholars still have a big part to play in our religion but that shud mostly be in Fiqh,implemeting islamic laws.But this inst that complicated an Issue,and as you already said that average ppl approach us with this question,SO WE SHUD DEFINATLEY know the answers to these kinda propaganda questions.

[ThE_UnReAcHaBLe]

brothers this forum is not for discussing such things...no one is well versed in ISLAMIC history, jurisprudence, culture, Quran or Hadiths.

such details should be asked from some ALLAMA.  here there is eevry possibility that u will be misled.  These are sensitive issues..and should be taken full care of.

If at all we have any such problems better search internet for authentic ISLAMIC SITES or personally ask some ALLAMA SAHIB and stop others from spreading misinformation.

thanx alot.

Hey no one is discussing any thing . Sobank is just sharing some info  and thats it .We dont discuss religious issues , we know we are not qualified for such discussions . But if some one wants to share some info about Islam  like articles from authentic sources , then i dont think there is any  harm in it .As far as the article is concerned , I find it quite authentic and logical . The writer has given the references for all the Hadiths/Verses/statements in his article. So if anyone who doubts can easily go and check whether the quotations are right or wrong .

WASALAM

[sobank]

indeed they do. But what i was trying to make a point that we should not seprate ourselves from this process. The matters that just need logical thinking and critical evaluation skills should be tackled and discussed among us. As i said before that we should become more active learners rather than swallowing whatever is taught. This very kind of learning habits gave rise to all those illetrate people who took the control of  mosques at the corner of every street. If people like you and me kept asking these kinds of questions in early times, we might have seen more educated imams at mosques who could put an end to many propogandas and bring more educational aspect to mosques as it was actually intended to be rather than just a place of prayer.

[desi_amin]

Proof of Divine Authorship

[4:82]  Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions.*

[Memphis]

First of all you dont have to be allama to figure out the mistakes in the history.

Says who? So you don't need an engineer to operate a complex electrical outlet? I think it's only logical to know that historians know a great deal -with accuracy- about humankind's history; and even they specialize in various -or a single- concentration area(s). You cannot match the years and years of research and field work that they put in to understand a small portion of history. Similarly, Alhamdolillah our learned islamic allamas specialize in concentration areas that involves specialized knowledge and critical observation and analyzation skills. But before you comment, please do read on...

I'm sorry for me there is no allama trustworthy.

I come accross somebody once in a while who exhibits the same sentiment as you. But what is noteworthy is that most -if not all- of them are plagued by the same reasoning that creates their misconception: i.e.  'all of them are alike'.

Do you happen to be familiar with the many degrees an islamic scholar can achieve? Ultimately, the level of his -or her- degree and learnedness with determine their authority and reliability. In other words, not everyone's your local jahil mullah.

There are the > Mullahs a.k.a moulanas ---> Alims --> Imams ---> Muftis.

To achieve each degree, you need a certain amount of specialized studies of the qur'an, islamic jurispudence, (islamic) history, etc.... which can total up to 15 years average (in certain cases more).

Just to give you an example, a scholar considered capable of interpreting the Quran MUST possess all 15 of the following qualities:

1. a person must be familiar with the vocabulary of the quran ILM E LUGHAT
2. A person must be able to place the Aa'rab (zer, zubr, pesh etc.) on the quran. this is called nah'af in arabic
3. A person must know of the root of the particular word in the quran, along with other words that come from that root, in arabic its termed sarraf.
4. a person must know of IShtiQaQ of the words. i.e. how a word changes when its used with some other word or how its meaning changes when some suffix or prefex is used with it.
5. a person must know of the idiomatic meaning of the quran and its words.i.e. ILM UL MA'ANI
6. a person must be familiar with the knowledge of badee'h. its tells of the meaning and the characteristics by how the ayat was constructed in language.
7. A person must be familiar with the knowledge of Ilm e Bay'an. i.e. how the meaning of a word changes if pronounced differently
8. A person must be a master of Ilm e Qira'At. i.e. how many different ways there are for recitation of the quran.
9. a person must be familiar with Ilm -e Aqa'aid. i.e and the time and era of implementation of the words of an ayat.
10. A person must be a master in ilm e Fiqh.i.e. the reason of revelation
11. A person must be familiar with Ilm e Nazool i.e. , the time of revelation
12. A person must be familiar with Ilm e Nasakh. i.e. in the rare case of cancellation of the revelation...... (an example that my feeble brain comes up with not the book --->).... like the cancelation of use of alcohol
13. a person must know of Ilm e FIQQAAH. i,e how the sum of the parts constitute the meaning of the whole
14. A person must be a master of Ilm e HAdees. the words and deeds of the PROPHET (SAW)
15. a person must be a master of Ilm e vahbee. the closest translation in english would be the god given gift of intellectual fortitude and intelligence of the ways of Islam.

All are opinions and you should be able to judge which one is correct based on logic and historically proven facts.

As far as logic is concerned, the qur'an, or islam, is NOT open for individual interpretation! Yes, Allah demands you to aquire knowledge of deen and to make sense of a given text in order to understand your deen better, but WE can never do so comprehensively and unbiasedly if we aren't experts in things such as WHY something was said, who said that something and when, who expanded on that something and why, what are the possible interpretations of that something and which is one is most accurate and WHY, etc.

Going back to my pervious reply, only and SOLELY if an individual has these 15 traits in him then his interpretation is valid; otherwise he is just winging it.

And by the way, not everything about religion is necessarily logical... for example FAITH.

You cannot possibly consider yourself realiable only coz you have spend some sleepeless nights and days (or maybe months) "searching" for the truth-- it requires years of intensive study to even be able to critically assess historical truth! Think about Ghadee-e-Kum!

We have to walk away from the trust allama attitude. They are human beings with possible prejuduices and flaws. Every statement should be episotmolgically evaluated.

Well yes, you gotta have SOME brains to realize an obvious lie from truth, but when it comes to complex issues, many a times it's not only the ullemas but WE who are biased. You cannot shape Islam to your liking--

For example i refrenced Syed Amir ali book. And i can tell you that guy is biased more by shia opinion on some opinions regarding hilafat. (no sect base critic intended)

How can you say he's biased? How have you determined it, and who tells me that YOU aren't being biased simply because YOU didn't like what you read???  

Maulana Maudodee is said to take articals by a book of another allama without giving any credit in his book tafheem-ul-quran. (true or not i will tell you in few days as i have to find out the  book name that was said to be the  source of articals).

FYI -- "Moulana" Modoodi had not enjoyed my previously outlined "must-have" qualities and knowledge in order to be considered a scholar or authentic. I guess he was a self-made man... though appreciable.

As a final note, i'd like to say that i didn't mean to disrespect you in any way, sobank. The article posted by you is an interesting read, and i commend you for your enthusiasm in Islam and your continued strugle for truth. My reply was NOT in response to your article. Either way, may Allah bestow his blessings upon you, and grant you continued enlightment and knowledge -- so as everyone else. Amin.  

[PAF2010]

Actually in todays Internet revolution everyone can use his intellect and intuition to get as close to the truth as possible. A few years back we had to consult books written by bigoted Mullahs or had to visit a local mosque to discuss the issue with a Molvee Sahib.

The internet has allowed us to sit in oure comfortable rooms and surf for hours to get to the truth. The older Alims relied on the same books as their predecessors did therefore their views were not only the same but also extremely rigid.

I remember asking the same question to my late Grand father and he replied in one sentence that it was Gods Will!

I would like to thank Sobank for his detailed research which actually every Muslim has to do to acquit our beloved Prophet from the slander of "Pedo". We need to spread this finding through out the Muslims !

I always knew that every action of the Holy Prophet conformed to the Holy Quran then how could he defy such a basic principle of Islam regarding marriage. The flood of information on the net has helped to quell many of our doubts ! Thanks again Sobank!

[faisal tanwir]

Says who? So you don't need an engineer to operate a complex electrical outlet? I think it's only logical to know that historians know a great deal -with accuracy- about humankind's history; and even they specialize in various -or a single- concentration area(s). You cannot match the years and years of research and field work that they put in to understand a small portion of history. Similarly, Alhamdolillah our learned islamic allamas specialize in concentration areas that involves specialized knowledge and critical observation and analyzation skills. But before you comment, please do read on...
I come accross somebody once in a while who exhibits the same sentiment as you. But what is noteworthy is that most -if not all- of them are plagued by the same reasoning that creates their misconception: i.e.  'all of them are alike'.

Do you happen to be familiar with the many degrees an islamic scholar can achieve? Ultimately, the level of his -or her- degree and learnedness with determine their authority and reliability. In other words, not everyone's your local jahil mullah.

There are the > Mullahs a.k.a moulanas ---> Alims --> Imams ---> Muftis.

To achieve each degree, you need a certain amount of specialized studies of the qur'an, islamic jurispudence, (islamic) history, etc.... which can total up to 15 years average (in certain cases more).

Just to give you an example, a scholar considered capable of interpreting the Quran MUST possess all 15 of the following qualities:

1. a person must be familiar with the vocabulary of the quran ILM E LUGHAT
2. A person must be able to place the Aa'rab (zer, zubr, pesh etc.) on the quran. this is called nah'af in arabic
3. A person must know of the root of the particular word in the quran, along with other words that come from that root, in arabic its termed sarraf.
4. a person must know of IShtiQaQ of the words. i.e. how a word changes when its used with some other word or how its meaning changes when some suffix or prefex is used with it.
5. a person must know of the idiomatic meaning of the quran and its words.i.e. ILM UL MA'ANI
6. a person must be familiar with the knowledge of badee'h. its tells of the meaning and the characteristics by how the ayat was constructed in language.
7. A person must be familiar with the knowledge of Ilm e Bay'an. i.e. how the meaning of a word changes if pronounced differently
8. A person must be a master of Ilm e Qira'At. i.e. how many different ways there are for recitation of the quran.
9. a person must be familiar with Ilm -e Aqa'aid. i.e and the time and era of implementation of the words of an ayat.
10. A person must be a master in ilm e Fiqh.i.e. the reason of revelation
11. A person must be familiar with Ilm e Nazool i.e. , the time of revelation
12. A person must be familiar with Ilm e Nasakh. i.e. in the rare case of cancellation of the revelation...... (an example that my feeble brain comes up with not the book --->).... like the cancelation of use of alcohol
13. a person must know of Ilm e FIQQAAH. i,e how the sum of the parts constitute the meaning of the whole
14. A person must be a master of Ilm e HAdees. the words and deeds of the PROPHET (SAW)
15. a person must be a master of Ilm e vahbee. the closest translation in english would be the god given gift of intellectual fortitude and intelligence of the ways of Islam.
As far as logic is concerned, the qur'an, or islam, is NOT open for individual interpretation! Yes, Allah demands you to aquire knowledge of deen and to make sense of a given text in order to understand your deen better, but WE can never do so comprehensively and unbiasedly if we aren't experts in things such as WHY something was said, who said that something and when, who expanded on that something and why, what are the possible interpretations of that something and which is one is most accurate and WHY, etc.

Going back to my pervious reply, only and SOLELY if an individual has these 15 traits in him then his interpretation is valid; otherwise he is just winging it.

And by the way, not everything about religion is necessarily logical... for example FAITH.

You cannot possibly consider yourself realiable only coz you have spend some sleepeless nights and days (or maybe months) "searching" for the truth-- it requires years of intensive study to even be able to critically assess historical truth! Think about Ghadee-e-Kum!
Well yes, you gotta have SOME brains to realize an obvious lie from truth, but when it comes to complex issues, many a times it's not only the ullemas but WE who are biased. You cannot shape Islam to your liking--
How can you say he's biased? How have you determined it, and who tells me that YOU aren't being biased simply because YOU didn't like what you read??? 
FYI -- "Moulana" Modoodi had not enjoyed my previously outlined "must-have" qualities and knowledge in order to be considered a scholar or authentic. I guess he was a self-made man... though appreciable.

As a final note, i'd like to say that i didn't mean to disrespect you in any way, sobank. The article posted by you is an interesting read, and i commend you for your enthusiasm in Islam and your continued strugle for truth. My reply was NOT in response to your article. Either way, may Allah bestow his blessings upon you, and grant you continued enlightment and knowledge -- so as everyone else. Amin. 

Great post! Increased my level of understanding about the system

[Saeed Khan]

Verifying this article requires verifying its quotes and references and then re-calculating all ages and the dates estimated by the author. If repeated checks find this article to be accurate then we should have no problem accepting this article to be true.

As far as I am concerned, just knowing that Hazrat Ayesha (RTA) was the most beloved wife of our Prophet (PBUH) and she loved him accordingly; is enough for me to accept this marriage to be Legal and Moral. If they loved each other then who the hell are we to object?

Also, enormous number of Hadith reach us through Hazrat Ayesha (RTA). Such dedication and respect can never be shown by a child towards her molester.

I saw a TV program where child molesters from European countries came to Philippines and Pimps provided them young kids to molest. Some of such kids were shown in this program and they showed unbelievable amount of hate and anger against their tormentors. Do we even see a hint of such disrespect in all Hazrat Ayesha (RTA) quotes about our Prophet (PBUH)?

As far as Hindus, etc. building Internet sites to insult Islam are concerned; God says in Bible that he made Tribes of people. I guess the Tribe of Hindus, etc. are only good at feeling jealous and badmouthing Islam, Muslims, and Pakistanis. Like a dog they can’t help but constantly keep barking at us. To them is their way of life and to us is our way of life. Let them not condition us; that is, we should not get intimidated by them and fall to their level.

[Memphis]

As far as I am concerned, just knowing that Hazrat Ayesha (RTA) was the most beloved wife of our Prophet (PBUH) and she loved him accordingly; is enough for me to accept this marriage to be Legal and Moral. If they loved each other then who the hell are we to object?

Exactly.  

[sobank]

As far as I am concerned, just knowing that Hazrat Ayesha (RTA) was the most beloved wife of our Prophet (PBUH) and she loved him accordingly; is enough for me to accept this marriage to be Legal and Moral. If they loved each other then who the hell are we to object?

Exactly. 

The question is "is it ok to marry a minor?", not if the minor is happy or not. and the answer is no she was not minor end of story. No excuse of her being happy. The whole purpose for this thread is to prove that there was no minor involved. If I say that she was conditioned to like P. Muhammad PBUH then you most prolly not gonna have any response to that. The psychological fact is that if the kid are being told one thing is good for them then they will start believing that. Also It is also fact that many of kids can go under critical psychological disorder. you simply cant denie that.

There are some cases of kids molestation where kids willingly got into sexual intercoarse with an adult and when they were asked if they were happy they replied yes we are so you should let us be.

I am not interperating hadiths or quran over here. i am not doing a tafseer. Its simple a case of 1+1=2. And i feel comfortable with applying that kind of logical approach. What we have discussed here is a logical approcah. are you gonna tell everyone else now that they not able to make decission on the simple evidence provided.

You know what let me ask you one thing. If a person takes part in a war how old do you think he is going to be? take this artical and let others read it and ask them can they make a judgment on this or not.

now let me give you an example. who do you think can justify Zakaat better. a mufti  who has done research in zakaat or an economist who has done reasearch in zakaat?

There are only two people in that i know of are most reliable source for any info in islam for me. One has proven himself on global level and other on smaller scale but nevertheless he was great person with greatest knowledge that i still have to see any muftee to posess. I am going to post them in our heroes thread as i am still in the process of collecting their bios. Why they are very trustworthy to me well you see their credentials and then decide it yourself. It is both of them that preached the indiviual involvement and even encouraged their students to even question to their teacher.

again i am not telling everyone to go and bash everything they learn from proper muftee or aalam. All i am just saying is to question it so you learn better and also alam keeps himself updated.

[Memphis]

The question is "is it ok to marry a minor?", not if the minor is happy or not. and the answer is no she was not minor end of story. No excuse of her being happy. The whole purpose for this thread is to prove that there was no minor involved.

Here's another question: how do we classify someone as being a 'minor'? Theoretically speaking, anyone being considered a minor prior to age 14 is a rather modern concept, and so seen one is considered a minor prior to the age of 21 in the US of A! There are phycologial studies regarding the maturity stages one goes through after puberty; for the girl it being her first menstruation. What does it mean to be menstruating? It doesn't merely mean losing blood or entering "adulthood", furthermore, it means to be capable of reproducing. There is no hard-and-fast rule regarding how soon humankind matures... rather, it is a phenomena dependant on the individual. Yet no one is denying that the age of 9 IS young. :)

I have explained to you before, and i will explain to you again that the concept of minor vs. adult has swifted in all these centuries and used to be very differently approached back in the old days. We CANNOT apply our current reasoning to an era with people of different mind-sets and cultural exposures.   Aaj kal everything seems to shift towards a 'higher age'... i.e. the avg. studies are taking longer, people are getting married later etc etc. and all these things affect the way we perceive society, responsibility, and maturity.

If I say that she was conditioned to like P. Muhammad PBUH then you most prolly not gonna have any response to that. The psychological fact is that if the kid are being told one thing is good for them then they will start believing that. Also It is also fact that many of kids can go under critical psychological disorder. you simply cant denie that.

This is irrelevant. Also, a "critical psychological disorder", as menstioned by you, is a serious mental condition that typically does not befall a child or 'a' person with such circumstances. Had she been affected by that, it would have come to light (and yes, it shows), bore a constrain on the relationship, and definitely not encouraged her to master ahadith (and some fiqh) nor take such enthusiasm especially after her husbands demise. Logical, no?    (PS, i'm an anthropology/phycology minor)

There are some cases of kids molestation where kids willingly got into sexual intercoarse with an adult and when they were asked if they were happy they replied yes we are so you should let us be.

Two words: over-simplification and generalization.  

I am not interperating hadiths or quran over here. i am not doing a tafseer. Its simple a case of 1+1=2. And i feel comfortable with applying that kind of logical approach. What we have discussed here is a logical approcah. are you gonna tell everyone else now that they not able to make decission on the simple evidence provided.

And as i have argued, it's -in fact- not as black and white after all.  

...yeh sab apne itni asaani se history, ahadith, sunnah, shariah, etc achi tarah se  jaane ke baghair kaise faisla karliya? Of course it's possible keh this may truly not take a genius to "figure it out", but there are always two sides to a coin; yaad rakhiye ga.  

You know what let me ask you one thing. If a person takes part in a war how old do you think he is going to be? take this artical and let others read it and ask them can they make a judgment on this or not.

What does this have to do with that? Honestly yar, age depend karegi on where this person is from and what their background is. NOW-A-DAYS it can range to as early as 10 to...  

[Memphis]

This is such a baseless back-and-forth ranting...

It's not like i'm disagreeing with you, though i have expressed the possibility of such a marriage's validity on all terms...

[snowball7]

Well let me take this oppertunity to say something.

3 years back i was student at mcmaster university. already taken some courses in critical reading and logic along with some psychology and women studies. And one day someone slamed this question on my face with sources that everyone loves to quote as trustworthy.


One request
For me age question was decided 3 years ago but this one guy raise a question over on this forum again and i had to hit the internet to find the same artical that i found 3 years ago. though i couldnt find that artical but i found this one. Though this artical was not my source of findings but this guy has done amazing job in putting it together. I will be really great  if you drop him a line of appericiation for this.

thanks guys.

thanks thats why i asked

[haroons222]

lol

after i posted my last reply i thought the same thing.

Ok now that u guys are doing such a good job and making such topics clearer,i just remembered another all time favorite of ppl.The HOOR issue,72,did any of u guys do some Research on that.It will be great if someone can clear this.

Thanks in advance.

[Sanguine]

I am late to the thread (like always) because I have read about it just lately. I aint sure which article by Muslim scholar Sobank exactly came across but I guess it could be analysis on age of Hazrat Ayesha (R.A) by Habeeb ur Rehman Siddiqui Kandhalvi. The article given here also extracts most of the stuff from the Kandhalvi's work. I read somewhere that some Pakistani scholar wrote a refutation of the whole analysis, though I have not found it yet. Here is a link to Kandhalvi's excellent analysis,

http://therealislam1...umr-e-aisha.pdf

[Caesar]

Well this articles can be considered as not mainstream, and the view point expressed here can be considered as a personnel viewpoint of just another man. I am sorry to say that the main facts in this world today clearly point to the fact that AYESHA was only 7 years old. There will always be questions asked about this and it would be extremely difficult for anyone to come up with a reasonable answer.

[butterfly]

Caesar.....I accept your point but. Do nt agree with it. Where is the evidence to say categorically that she was 7 or 9 pr whatever. From the book which governs all Muslims and especially the prophet pbuh. If that woman is not of the age to give consen to the marriage then it's not possible. I also accept that n many cultures even today men and women marry very by young. I think it is equally possible that the scholar of the time gt he age wrong.

[Sanguine]

butterfly, on 10 May 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

Pakistani scholars are asleep. They have changed our ahzans let alone anything else. I hate to say it sister but anything coming from a Pakistani scholar has to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Most of the Pakistani scholars are lethargic souls who know nothing about intricate details of religion. Unfortunately people like Kandhalvi and Tamanna Immadi migrated to Pakistan but the nation perhaps did not deserve such great scholars with the result that when Habeeb ur Rehman Kandhalvi wrote "Mazhabi dastanain aur unki haqeeqat", our moronic scholars buried their heads into sand saying "we do not have to respond to books of Hadith rejectors". Where we see hundereds of books written in order to refute the work of other scholars, there has not been a single refutation of "Mazhabi dastanain aur unki haqeeqat". Today in Pakistan, you do not find their books. One of my class fellow's relatives went to India and there they were given books of Kandhalvi as a gesture of good will. Such a shame it is for us! Btw I read and listen all the scholars and then I make my opinions. I find the article very logical and since I have reached the level where I can corroborate the evidences, I have not found any thing against Islam or against Quranic and Hadith sciences.

[rungroot]

The following are well known historical facts:

1.  The DOB of Hazrat Bibi Asma RA (the older sister of Hazrat Bibi Aisha RA) was in the year 592AD.

2.  Hazrat Bibi Asma RA was 28 or 29 years old when Huzur e Pak SAW did hijrah from Makkah to Medina in the year 622AD.  Hazrat Bibi Asma RA is well known especially here because she was the providing food and water for the Holy Prophet SAW and her father Hazrat Abu Bakr RA.  

3.  622AD - 592AD = 30 years, so the approximate age of Hazrat Bibi Asma RA during Huzur e Pak SAW's hijrah stands proven and verified.

4.  Hazrat Bibi Aisha RA was 10 years younger than her older sister Hazrat Bibi Asma RA.  

SO NOW...HOW OLD WAS HAZRAT BIBI AISHA RA AT THE TIME OF HUZUR E PAK SAW'S HIJRAH???

Can our ulema even spell MATH or do they have alterior motives????

[butterfly]

rungroot, on 10 May 2012 - 01:12 PM, said:

The following are well known historical facts:

1.  The DOB of Hazrat Bibi Asma RA (the older sister of Hazrat Bibi Aisha RA) was in the year 592AD.

2.  Hazrat Bibi Asma RA was 28 or 29 years old when Huzur e Pak SAW did hijrah from Makkah to Medina in the year 622AD.  Hazrat Bibi Asma RA is well known especially here because she was the providing food and water for the Holy Prophet SAW and her father Hazrat Abu Bakr RA.  

3.  622AD - 592AD = 30 years, so the approximate age of Hazrat Bibi Asma RA during Huzur e Pak SAW's hijrah stands proven and verified.

4.  Hazrat Bibi Aisha RA was 10 years younger than her older sister Hazrat Bibi Asma RA.  

SO NOW...HOW OLD WAS HAZRAT BIBI AISHA RA AT THE TIME OF HUZUR E PAK SAW'S HIJRAH???

Can our ulema even spell MATH or do they have alterior motives????

If these dates are correct then there is simply no argument.

[rungroot]

^^^

Oh no no no, our jahil good for nothing so called and self proclaimed "ulema" will give more credence to some cooked up ahadith that says that Hazrat Bibi Ayesha RA was 6 years old when she was married rather than paying attention cold hard historical and mathematical facts.

Its no wonder that those same so called and self proclaimed ulema immediately turn around and justify themselves looking for a 6 year old wife, and also provide ammunition to the kuffar to make comments against our Holy Prophet!!!

Makes you wonder whose side are they really on, doesnt it???

[butterfly]

They have no sides....lithely are usually very fat and round. Looool

I have heard khutba in musjids in Pakistan that have been so out of line that I looked up and said YA Allah I AM HERE BUT I AM NOT WITH THEM. two occasions I wanted to get up and hit the imam he was so wrong. But what can you say to these people?

[rungroot]

butterfly, on 10 May 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

They have no sides....lithely are usually very fat and round. Looool

I have heard khutba in musjids in Pakistan that have been so out of line that I looked up and said YA Allah I AM HERE BUT I AM NOT WITH THEM. two occasions I wanted to get up and hit the imam he was so wrong. But what can you say to these people?

There is only and only 1 one way to deal with such (non) ulema:

K
I
L
L

T
H
E
M
!!!

They are a black plague on our society no different than the filthy corrupt liberal politicians.  Both must be exterminated like rats!

[Sanguine]

The problem is that we take the easy path by blindly following every hadith without checking if it is in conformity with Quran or not. The obsession of our people with Sahih Bukhari to an extent that nothing can be wrong in it makes people  label any person criticizing such traditions on logical grounds as Kafir or hadith rejector.

[rungroot]

Yeah well I consider people who blindly follow Bukhari as committing shirk.  I know I quote a lot of ahadith, but only the ones that are according to the Quran and the true sunnah.  I will never blindly follow or believe them as I blindly believe in the Quran.  To do so WILL be shirk, as you are equating Allah's book with books compiled a hundred years after by some men who were well meaning scholars but being prone to errors and mistakes since they were not prophets guided by Allah.  Bluntly put, the science of ahadith collection is man made and thus prone to mistakes.


The question is that how do we pull people out of such beliefs, we have tried politely explaining with sense and logic, didnt work.  The only way that I can think of is ruthless and overwhelming force.

Im sorry but some of these so called ahadith are untolerable, straight up tauheen e risalat!!! I will never accept them.

[Sanguine]

Give this argument to any person and he'll tell you how Quran was compiled after the life of Prophet (P.B.U.H) which is of course a myth. Can you believe that our people have doubts about the Quran? I mean lets take example of verse on rajam (ayat-e rajam). The abrogation concept tells us that it used to be a part of Quran. If you go by traditions then you'll find so many errors in Quran that you'll lose the counts. I dont know why on earth we are hell bent on making this book doubtful just to prove that few fabricaated or Daif traditions are correct. There are handful scholars who argue that sunnah cannot abrogate Quran and sunnah that abrogates Quran is not sunnah of Prophet (P.B.U.H). Our people switch to hadith without reading Quran and forget that its actually Quran that forms basis of dogmas. If you go by authenticity then Imam Mailk's Muatta is far more better than Sahih Bukhari but then it is considered a book of fiqh (since it also includes sayings of Companions). By the way I think there were many recorded boks of Hadith even before Imam Bukhari compiled Sahih Bukhari.

[safdar]

rungroot, on 10 May 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

The question is that how do we pull people out of such beliefs, we have tried politely explaining with sense and logic, didnt work.  The only way that I can think of is ruthless and overwhelming force.

Just tell them to move towards the hanbali fiq. Much more simple and straight forward, specially when you want a simple answer to a complicated question.

[rungroot]

safdar, on 11 May 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Just tell them to move towards the hanbali fiq. Much more simple and straight forward, specially when you want a simple answer to a complicated question.

Why??? Why not just study the Quran and sunnah on their own and live accordingly?

In light of another authentic hadith that says that there will be 71 or 72 firqahs in Islam and they all will burn in hell except ONE; the one that is of Rasool Allah S A W and the Sahabah (and the ones like them).  So which firqah, fiqh and/or silsilah will you follow now???  How do you know they wont be the one destined to burn in hell???