I have this thread, if you guys have any question, which you want to ask. Post that here instead of opening insane new topics and one liners.
be respectfull and thank full to the person who provide you the info.
remember we are all here to learn.
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Questions Thread
Started by
Guest_Psychosaint_*
, Oct 01 2004 02:17 PM
1002 replies to this topic
#1
PS:Annonymous
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Posted 01 October 2004 - 02:17 PM
Walk away if you want to
it's ok, if you need to
you can run, but you can never hide
From the shadow that's creeping up beside you
There's a magic running through your soul
But you can't have it all
it's ok, if you need to
you can run, but you can never hide
From the shadow that's creeping up beside you
There's a magic running through your soul
But you can't have it all
#2
Best of the Best
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Posted 01 October 2004 - 04:02 PM
Psychosaint i have a question regarding F-16 Block 60 and Rafale my question is which is the better aircraft out of these two secondly if Pakistan could buy F-16 block 60 would it return PAF the edge it once had over its enemy plz dont mind my question like you said we are all here to learn another thing if Pakistan could get any of these two aircrafts which one do you think PAF would want???
thankyou.
thankyou.
#3
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Posted 02 October 2004 - 12:28 AM
i think everyone knows it in here but i am just 12 so i wanted to know what is
lock down and shoot down capability
lock down and shoot down capability
#4
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Posted 02 October 2004 - 04:33 AM
Psychosaint i have a question regarding F-16 Block 60 and Rafale my question is which is the better aircraft out of these two secondly if Pakistan could buy F-16 block 60 would it return PAF the edge it once had over its enemy plz dont mind my question like you said we are all here to learn another thing if Pakistan could get any of these two aircrafts which one do you think PAF would want???
thankyou.
Well as for as my knowledge, Rafale is almost a generation ahead than F-16..It will surly win.As for as return of air supermacy is concern i think F-16 is not a good choice..no matter which veriant we r talking about..Rafale is only answer for MKI at present.
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#5
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Posted 02 October 2004 - 12:00 PM
Ok.Now i have a question.How to counter a stealth AC?And how can a 5th gen AC
JSF can cost less than mirage-2000-5?WHat makes it cheap even less than F-16 blk50?
JSF can cost less than mirage-2000-5?WHat makes it cheap even less than F-16 blk50?
#6
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Posted 02 October 2004 - 12:21 PM
Psychosaint i have a question regarding F-16 Block 60 and Rafale my question is which is the better aircraft out of these two secondly if Pakistan could buy F-16 block 60 would it return PAF the edge it once had over its enemy plz dont mind my question like you said we are all here to learn another thing if Pakistan could get any of these two aircrafts which one do you think PAF would want???
thankyou.
Rafale is a whole new AirCraft and so is F16 Block 60
the thing you look at it is reliability, pricewise, parts, training, inferastructure etc.
Rafals are damn expensive, if you look at the price tag only for the plane and then comes training, Crew, inferastructure, parts. which is gonna cost any airforce alot.
F16s, cheap, reliable, already tested and experienced with. parts are cheaper by far if you compair it with rafales. proven tech, and still one of the feared and honored Strike plane, Aim-120 and much variety of ammo can be carried, has long range. not much behind of Rafales.
but then you look at the politcal reliablity. French are more reliable than USA.
but Price is high and its worth it to go for rafales if you got BUCKS.
in the end it all comes to money. i will try to post more info on both of thier on tech specs. so it can help you understand the missions and in details about both Fighters.
Walk away if you want to
it's ok, if you need to
you can run, but you can never hide
From the shadow that's creeping up beside you
There's a magic running through your soul
But you can't have it all
it's ok, if you need to
you can run, but you can never hide
From the shadow that's creeping up beside you
There's a magic running through your soul
But you can't have it all
#7
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Posted 02 October 2004 - 12:31 PM
Good question.i think everyone knows it in here but i am just 12 so i wanted to know what is
lock down and shoot down capability
The Tomcat is believed to have been the world first fighter to have a look down and shoot down capability.This capability was the last major gap to be closed in air defense. It is also claimed that the F-14 Tomcat not only have capability against hostile aircraft but also Sea Skimming anti-ship missiles.
look-down / shoot-down capability against low-flying targets which might otherwise be obscured by the terrain below.
I hope it will help you to understand the concept. it is mostly for low flying targets. the pilot can look down and shot those low flying target.
Walk away if you want to
it's ok, if you need to
you can run, but you can never hide
From the shadow that's creeping up beside you
There's a magic running through your soul
But you can't have it all
it's ok, if you need to
you can run, but you can never hide
From the shadow that's creeping up beside you
There's a magic running through your soul
But you can't have it all
#8
Saqr
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Posted 02 October 2004 - 12:50 PM
About the F-16s and Rafales.
The F-16, no matter what version has a huge and fast production line, and delivery of the aircraft isn't a big problem. The Rafale's production line is less than 10, and thats including exports, if someone wants to increase it, then that menas coughing up hte $$$.
The F-16, no matter what version has a huge and fast production line, and delivery of the aircraft isn't a big problem. The Rafale's production line is less than 10, and thats including exports, if someone wants to increase it, then that menas coughing up hte $$$.
#9
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Posted 02 October 2004 - 12:58 PM
I will answer your first part of the question later. yes Stealth can be detected. there is a possibilty.Ok.Now i have a question.How to counter a stealth AC?And how can a 5th gen AC
JSF can cost less than mirage-2000-5?WHat makes it cheap even less than F-16 blk50?
but for the second part. Why JSF is cheaper than F16s.
it is simple, Big production line. lots of countries are standing in line to buy it.
Only USAF will be buying it in number. then almost many countries from europe, Middleeast are in line standing to buy it. some of the countries have already placed the order which helped to braught the cost exremly down. the same thing happened to the f16s. because now the development cast has been shared and due to the mass production is cast came down automaticaly. simple economics. supply and demand.
Yes i will try to bring more info about Stealth detection. i opened that topic long ago, it was very detail about stealth detection. let me see if i can find that article for you. it was very informative.
Edited by Psychosaint, 02 October 2004 - 01:07 PM.
Walk away if you want to
it's ok, if you need to
you can run, but you can never hide
From the shadow that's creeping up beside you
There's a magic running through your soul
But you can't have it all
it's ok, if you need to
you can run, but you can never hide
From the shadow that's creeping up beside you
There's a magic running through your soul
But you can't have it all
#10
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Posted 02 October 2004 - 01:15 PM
Rafale - F-16 Block 60
Cost - F-16 Block 60
Design - Rafale
Technology - Same level till rafale gets Aesa
F-16 Block 60 -Amraam
Rafale - Mica
My preference - Amraam as a world phemonon in bvraam market
Beauty - rafale
Production speed - block 60
Stealthy Design- rafale
There are stealthy acs , proper stealth is still B-2 and F-117 .
Stealth is detectable in theory but its practical form is said
to be in J-231 radar developed by china not sure if it is deployed yet.
Cost - F-16 Block 60
Design - Rafale
Technology - Same level till rafale gets Aesa
F-16 Block 60 -Amraam
Rafale - Mica
My preference - Amraam as a world phemonon in bvraam market
Beauty - rafale
Production speed - block 60
Stealthy Design- rafale
There are stealthy acs , proper stealth is still B-2 and F-117 .
Stealth is detectable in theory but its practical form is said
to be in J-231 radar developed by china not sure if it is deployed yet.
Edited by usmanali, 02 October 2004 - 01:19 PM.
"An equation means nothing to me unless it expresses a thought of God". Srinivasa Ramanujan
“Si vis pacem, para bellum- "If you wish for peace, prepare for war.”
"Whoever commands the sea, commands the trade; whosoever commands the trade of the world commands the riches of the world, and consequently the world itself."--Sir Walter Raleigh
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#11
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Posted 02 October 2004 - 01:17 PM
Guys this is From Guru, so i can tell ya this is a fair compairsonRafale - F-16 Block 60
Cost - F-16 Block 60
Design - Rafale
Technology - Same level till rafale gets Aesa
F-16 Block 60 -Amraam
Rafale - Mica
My preference - Amraam as a world phemonon in bvraam market
Beauty - rafale
Production speed - block 60
Stealthy Design- rafale
Walk away if you want to
it's ok, if you need to
you can run, but you can never hide
From the shadow that's creeping up beside you
There's a magic running through your soul
But you can't have it all
it's ok, if you need to
you can run, but you can never hide
From the shadow that's creeping up beside you
There's a magic running through your soul
But you can't have it all
#12
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Posted 02 October 2004 - 01:21 PM
What is the H-2 H-4 series of missiles/bombs that Pakistan ha made.
Are they Air to air missiles?
Are they Air to ground Precision guided munitions ?
There have been various reports, the latest one is this :
Here we go with JANES. The weapon systems definetly are standoff AGMs.
JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - JANUARY 07, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pakistan conducts second test firing of H-4 missile
ROBERT HEWSON Editor, Jane's Air-Launched Weapons
London
Pakistan is believed to have successfully completed a second test firing of its clandestine H-4 missile system, according to December regional media reports.
Reports of a first test emerged in April 2003, stating that the missile was fired from a Mirage III fighter aircraft and successfully destroyed a target drone.
In the April reports, the H-4 was described as an active-radar air-to-air missile (AAM) and most observers saw it as no coincidence that reports of Pakistan's programme emerged immediately following the first test of India's Astra AAM.
The latest reports describe the H-4 as an air-to-surface weapon and refer to two variants, H-4 and H-2, with a stand-off range of 120km and 60km respectively.
While it is not possible to confirm all details of the H-4 programme, Pakistan is long thought to have fielded a standoff precision-guided weapon system akin to the Raptor series of powered glide bombs developed in South Africa. Sources in Pakistan also suggest a South African connection to other Pakistan Air Force weapon programmes.
The Raptor family was developed by Denel (Kentron) under the codenames H-1, H-2 and H-3 from the late 1970s onwards. It is known that Denel has undertaken integration studies for the Raptor with the F-16 and Mirage aircraft. Pakistan's F-16s have a primary air defence tasking, while its upgraded Mirage IIIs are allocated a precision-guided munition delivery role.
Pakistan Air Force Chief of Staff ACM Kaleem Saadat said in October 2003 that a beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) capability was a near-term priority for the air force (JDW 8 October 2003). He said discussions were under way with China for the development of the SD-10 BVRAAM
Are they Air to air missiles?
Are they Air to ground Precision guided munitions ?
There have been various reports, the latest one is this :
Here we go with JANES. The weapon systems definetly are standoff AGMs.
JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - JANUARY 07, 2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pakistan conducts second test firing of H-4 missile
ROBERT HEWSON Editor, Jane's Air-Launched Weapons
London
Pakistan is believed to have successfully completed a second test firing of its clandestine H-4 missile system, according to December regional media reports.
Reports of a first test emerged in April 2003, stating that the missile was fired from a Mirage III fighter aircraft and successfully destroyed a target drone.
In the April reports, the H-4 was described as an active-radar air-to-air missile (AAM) and most observers saw it as no coincidence that reports of Pakistan's programme emerged immediately following the first test of India's Astra AAM.
The latest reports describe the H-4 as an air-to-surface weapon and refer to two variants, H-4 and H-2, with a stand-off range of 120km and 60km respectively.
While it is not possible to confirm all details of the H-4 programme, Pakistan is long thought to have fielded a standoff precision-guided weapon system akin to the Raptor series of powered glide bombs developed in South Africa. Sources in Pakistan also suggest a South African connection to other Pakistan Air Force weapon programmes.
The Raptor family was developed by Denel (Kentron) under the codenames H-1, H-2 and H-3 from the late 1970s onwards. It is known that Denel has undertaken integration studies for the Raptor with the F-16 and Mirage aircraft. Pakistan's F-16s have a primary air defence tasking, while its upgraded Mirage IIIs are allocated a precision-guided munition delivery role.
Pakistan Air Force Chief of Staff ACM Kaleem Saadat said in October 2003 that a beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) capability was a near-term priority for the air force (JDW 8 October 2003). He said discussions were under way with China for the development of the SD-10 BVRAAM
Hayden and Sehwag can afford bluster; if they go, they have Ponting, Gilchrist, Sachin or Dravid. But if Inzamam falls, as John Wright's fist-pumping celebration at Kolkata in the second innings suggested, half the battle with Pakistan is often won.
#13
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Posted 02 October 2004 - 02:13 PM
thank you very much pshycosaint
#14
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Posted 02 October 2004 - 08:45 PM
1) My question is can Raphale pull 9g's for extended period?
2) if not then wht are the chances of raphale against Typhoon in WVR??
3) does Typhoon have AESA?
4) If not wht are the chances pf Typhoon against Raphale in BVR ??
My questions r for senior members of this forum PLz answer :bounce:
:PakistanFlag: :PakistanFlag:
2) if not then wht are the chances of raphale against Typhoon in WVR??
3) does Typhoon have AESA?
4) If not wht are the chances pf Typhoon against Raphale in BVR ??
My questions r for senior members of this forum PLz answer :bounce:
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#15
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Posted 02 October 2004 - 11:07 PM
Good question.
The Tomcat is believed to have been the world first fighter to have a look down and shoot down capability.This capability was the last major gap to be closed in air defense. It is also claimed that the F-14 Tomcat not only have capability against hostile aircraft but also Sea Skimming anti-ship missiles.
look-down / shoot-down capability against low-flying targets which might otherwise be obscured by the terrain below.
I hope it will help you to understand the concept. it is mostly for low flying targets. the pilot can look down and shot those low flying target.
Yeah, and MiG-23 was the first soviet fighter to have it with the Saphir-23 and AA-7 Apex missile.
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#16
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Posted 02 October 2004 - 11:11 PM
Ok.Now i have a question.How to counter a stealth AC?And how can a 5th gen AC
JSF can cost less than mirage-2000-5?WHat makes it cheap even less than F-16 blk50?
Stealth AC -
Get loads of IRST, long-wave radars, multi-static radars, Ladars (high-power beam radars), visual spotting stations, constant CAPs by fighters like MkI with OLS-30 and PRAY !!!!
Oh and yes, make radar coverages overlap to the maximum possible extent.
And about JSF, i think it has got to do with the manufacturing technique rather than equipment. The development cost decreases due to inputs from F-22 programme.
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#17
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Posted 03 October 2004 - 05:42 AM
i have a question that is it posible that, could AGM-88 HARM (anti radar) use against indian AWCAs???
cuz u know it is made to kill radars, so is it posible that it could lock on to AWCAs??
cuz u know it is made to kill radars, so is it posible that it could lock on to AWCAs??
#18
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Posted 03 October 2004 - 08:07 AM
1) My question is can Raphale pull 9g's for extended period?
Any plane`s full capabilities are not on paper since much depends on the fate of the poor pilot inside rather than finding out the limits of a plane`s capability .
2) does Typhoon have AESA?
2010
4) If not wht are the chances pf Typhoon against Raphale in BVR ??
Both are very modern . Typhoon is a multi nation effort while french withdrew and went for rafale . the capabilities in future are set be not far apart . Typhoon is having lots of technical problems due to its complexities not present in rafale . both are set to field Aesa in few years both are bvr armed and with latest missiles . It remains to be seen if Typhoon`s complexities are solved or not in time .
AGM-88
Its an Air to Ground Missile for radar sites .
PS: not long range too
Any plane`s full capabilities are not on paper since much depends on the fate of the poor pilot inside rather than finding out the limits of a plane`s capability .
2) does Typhoon have AESA?
2010
4) If not wht are the chances pf Typhoon against Raphale in BVR ??
Both are very modern . Typhoon is a multi nation effort while french withdrew and went for rafale . the capabilities in future are set be not far apart . Typhoon is having lots of technical problems due to its complexities not present in rafale . both are set to field Aesa in few years both are bvr armed and with latest missiles . It remains to be seen if Typhoon`s complexities are solved or not in time .
AGM-88
Its an Air to Ground Missile for radar sites .
PS: not long range too
"An equation means nothing to me unless it expresses a thought of God". Srinivasa Ramanujan
“Si vis pacem, para bellum- "If you wish for peace, prepare for war.”
"Whoever commands the sea, commands the trade; whosoever commands the trade of the world commands the riches of the world, and consequently the world itself."--Sir Walter Raleigh
"'To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize." Voltaire
"For those of us climbing to the top of the food chain, there can be no mercy. There is but one rule: hunt or be hunted." Frank Underwood
>>>>www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JjDDgK8KXc<<<<<
#19
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Posted 04 October 2004 - 11:36 AM
Hey can some body please elaborate on tactics aginst 5th gen AC by a numerically strong 4th gen AC fleet
#20
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Posted 05 October 2004 - 08:00 AM
Dear Psychosaint and other seniour members on this forum i have a important question regarding F-7MF these days F-7MF are being discussed that it was a back up project incase JF-17's project failed, now from what i have read F-7MF is an excellent replacement for F-7P's and F-7MF is an excellent air defence fighter which would be fully BVR capable and it also has a big nose to host a good rader it is also said that F-7MF will be able to carry SD-10, PL-9C and it also would have an HMS in it.
NOW my question is isnt F-7MF an excellent replacement for F-7P's so is there a chance to see this jet in PAF colors second why do peoplle on this forum say that F-7PG is better than F-7MF when one can clearly see it is better? plz do answer my question dear Psychosaint thank you.
NOW my question is isnt F-7MF an excellent replacement for F-7P's so is there a chance to see this jet in PAF colors second why do peoplle on this forum say that F-7PG is better than F-7MF when one can clearly see it is better? plz do answer my question dear Psychosaint thank you.
#21
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Posted 05 October 2004 - 12:10 PM
I am waiting............Hey can some body please elaborate on tactics aginst 5th gen AC by a numerically strong 4th gen AC fleet
#22
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Posted 05 October 2004 - 10:36 PM
I am waiting............
Well goodman, u have know the strength of a 5th gen fighter and its weak link.
Strength is stealthy design, and weak link is radar usage. They depend on virtual radar, ie - they downlink info from AWACS and other Command centres and process it to act as their radar.
Now they use secure data-link, do something to jam it - somehow !!
Take a large task force (sort of kamikaze) to take out AWACS and re-fuelers, so that they fighters will have to use their own radars.
Now u use a good passive-homing missile and other BVRAAMs to take out the chokers. Place snipers in the form of smaller figthers like Mirage-2000-5, flying very low or very high and order them to take a clean shot while the MkI engage them up front.
Dats all i could think of - its tough, comment anyone.
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#23
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Posted 06 October 2004 - 05:46 AM
Question
why is the JF-17 critsized as being an underpowered fighter aircraft?, which has poor capability and is inferior to the F-16A?
i heard a while ago that the RD-93 enables the JF-17 to have super manuverability is this true?
why is the JF-17 critsized as being an underpowered fighter aircraft?, which has poor capability and is inferior to the F-16A?
i heard a while ago that the RD-93 enables the JF-17 to have super manuverability is this true?
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'1 mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter'
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#24
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Posted 06 October 2004 - 09:23 AM
Question
why is the JF-17 critsized as being an underpowered fighter aircraft?, which has poor capability and is inferior to the F-16A?
i heard a while ago that the RD-93 enables the JF-17 to have super manuverability is this true?
Super-agility is the ability to maneuver in post-stall situations. JF-17 does not have it, late flankers, F-22 etc have it.
RD-93 is smoky and is error prone.
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#25
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Posted 06 October 2004 - 09:36 AM
manuverability
it wont be as much as F16
#26
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Posted 06 October 2004 - 08:25 PM
HOW MANY AL-KHALIDS DOES PAK OPERATE SO FAR ?
Hayden and Sehwag can afford bluster; if they go, they have Ponting, Gilchrist, Sachin or Dravid. But if Inzamam falls, as John Wright's fist-pumping celebration at Kolkata in the second innings suggested, half the battle with Pakistan is often won.
#27
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Posted 06 October 2004 - 09:01 PM
i think the numbers are some where between 100-200. i will confirm and will let you know.
Walk away if you want to
it's ok, if you need to
you can run, but you can never hide
From the shadow that's creeping up beside you
There's a magic running through your soul
But you can't have it all
it's ok, if you need to
you can run, but you can never hide
From the shadow that's creeping up beside you
There's a magic running through your soul
But you can't have it all
#28
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Posted 06 October 2004 - 09:17 PM
Why is that thre was no ceremony of handing Al Khalids to Army like AlZarrar?
:PakistanFlag: :PakistanFlag:
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#29
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Posted 06 October 2004 - 09:27 PM
Why is that thre was no ceremony of handing Al Khalids to Army like AlZarrar?
:PakistanFlag: :PakistanFlag:
Jimmy Jimmy there was a ceremony of handing AL KHALIDS & ALZARRAR thanks to PA and it happened in september if i am not wrong :smile:
#30
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Posted 06 October 2004 - 09:46 PM
Jimmy Jimmy there was a ceremony of handing AL KHALIDS & ALZARRAR thanks to PA and it happened in september if i am not wrong :smile:
I think that was 80+ Alzarrar handed to PA?? :bounce:
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#31
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Posted 07 October 2004 - 05:53 AM
The reason for the smokey engine was the poor quality oil which was used in the engine, it was of none-nato standard.Super-agility is the ability to maneuver in post-stall situations. JF-17 does not have it, late flankers, F-22 etc have it.
RD-93 is smoky and is error prone.
VIPER
The Ink of a scholar is mightier than a blood of a martyr (Prophet mustafa Saw/PBUH)
'1 mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter'
ce la vie
“WE KNEW HE WAS A SON OF A ######, BUT HE WAS OUR SON OF A ######”
CIA agent Geoffrey Kemp talking about Saddam Hussein:
'1 mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter'
ce la vie
“WE KNEW HE WAS A SON OF A ######, BUT HE WAS OUR SON OF A ######”
CIA agent Geoffrey Kemp talking about Saddam Hussein:
#32
viper007
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Posted 07 October 2004 - 09:02 AM
The reason for the smokey engine was the poor quality oil which was used in the engine, it was of none-nato standard.
33 & 93, both are smoky not due to oil but due to design.
Dats why MiG-29s smoke in every nation.
VIPER
We learn from History that we learn nothing from Histroy !!!
#33
superultra_jetfighter
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Posted 07 October 2004 - 05:35 PM
i think everyone knows it in here but i am just 12 so i wanted to know what is
lock down and shoot down capability
Hey its good to know i'm not the only one that under the age of 15.
You Want The Truth, You Cant Handle The Truth
J-10 rules!!!!!!!!!
J-10 rules!!!!!!!!!
#34
hawkeye-01
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Posted 08 October 2004 - 06:58 AM
my question is about Pakistani F7 pgs . Can they be soon fited with sd10 capability and same question about rose upgraded mirages .
#35
viper007
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Posted 08 October 2004 - 07:37 AM
my question is about Pakistani F7 pgs . Can they be soon fited with sd10 capability and same question about rose upgraded mirages .
PG can carry SD-10 with a little modification of pylons. Mirage-ROSE can also do the same. It can also carry Darter series BVRAAMs.
Like the BISON, PG will not be able to use the SD-10 to its full range, which will hurt more in case of PG coz SD-10 may have a better long range performance than R-77. But since both are close-range fighters, it is good enough for them.
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We learn from History that we learn nothing from Histroy !!!
#36
FASAL XJ
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Posted 08 October 2004 - 09:12 AM
if the PAF ever faced conflict with india, would the PAF arm there F-16s to carry the SD-10???
The Ink of a scholar is mightier than a blood of a martyr (Prophet mustafa Saw/PBUH)
'1 mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter'
ce la vie
“WE KNEW HE WAS A SON OF A ######, BUT HE WAS OUR SON OF A ######”
CIA agent Geoffrey Kemp talking about Saddam Hussein:
'1 mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter'
ce la vie
“WE KNEW HE WAS A SON OF A ######, BUT HE WAS OUR SON OF A ######”
CIA agent Geoffrey Kemp talking about Saddam Hussein:
#37
Best of the Best
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Posted 08 October 2004 - 10:39 AM
My question is when will be able to see the result's of the turkish excersises and would be able to see the results accquired by the PAF pilots and how they performed??? :read: :excl: :read: :PakistanFlag:
#38
goodman
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Posted 08 October 2004 - 11:16 AM
And the results will be on what basis?My question is when will be able to see the result's of the turkish excersises and would be able to see the results accquired by the PAF pilots and how they performed??? :read: :excl: :read: :PakistanFlag:
#39
Best of the Best
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Posted 08 October 2004 - 11:30 AM
#40
goodman
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Posted 08 October 2004 - 12:02 PM
I mean ..Country Vs country or team vs team....As there r many counries participatingwhat the hell is that suppose to mean?
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